{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5195", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5195, "subject": "blastoDePasto v2: Schultz post", "messages": 2, "voices": 1, "first": "2008-10-25T04:20:11+00:00", "last": "2008-10-27T21:31:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-10-25T04:20:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) blastoDePasto v2: Schultz post", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "while I'm diggin up the moldy oldies:\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0011/0069.shtml\n\nthis is the best analysis of this book that I've come across yet, by FAR:\n\n\nFrom: \"J. Schultz\" \nSubject: (urth) On a rereading\nDate: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:50:06 \n\nHaving taken a week long vacation I got a chance to reread the four books of\nthe New Sun. I am writing more as a reflection and coalescence of my own\nthoughts, rather than to anyone in particular. Bear with me if anything I\nsay repeats things said long ago in archieves or states the obvious that you\nalready figured out for yourself. Also, it has been sometime since I have\nread the sequel book so my speculations may contradict things contained in\nit.\n\nThe first 3 and a half books seem to deal with the theme of Severian\nbecoming his own man and casting off other authorities' hold on him. Every\nauthority that is, except that of the Increate. In each episode of Sev's\nlife he pledges his loyalty to a vestige of authority which is later broken\nby him. We see shy this breaking of authority is nessisary during the dream\nthat takes place after the play near the wall of Nessus. In the dream\nMalrubius reviews the several types of authority with Sev. He illustrates\npersonal loyalty to the throne is the strongest and most basic type of\nauthority. He leaves his argument open ended but implies that Sev must\nforge a personal loyatly to the Increate himself. Thus we see that those\nwho follow the church, or the crown, or the police, or those whoose\nloyalties lie indirectly with Increate are far more distant from Him. An\nexample of this are those who consider themselves 'born again.' They have a\nmuch stronger faith having found God for themselves than those who have been\nbrought up to believe the Church without question. Sev's life is a slow\nprocess of removing himself from outside authority and following what I\nguess should be called the 'True Path,' that of direct loyalty to the\nIncreate. Sev states that the Conciliator, if he had weapons used them on\nhimself and later makes alludes to the fact that he feels he is doing that\nhimself. He is killing of the parts of him that will blindly follow false\nauthority (all authority being false except that of the Increate) Earlier\nin this group we discussed Sev's turning point, which being a human and\nprone will not be black and white in Sev's life. The turning point is just\nbefore he attacks the castle of Baldanders when he pledges to follow the\nwill of the Increate above all others. All other events have led up to this\nand in rereading the passage I'm sure you'll agree. He breaks ties with the\nGuild, the Archon, Voudalus, Dr Talos' Death name tag, Typhon's will, etc.\netc. and finally forges his personal loyalty to God. The title Autarch as\nmeaning 'self ruler' also alludes to this theme.\nI probably could of said all that better, but its been a while since I've\nhad to write coherent thoughts. Feel free to state it better, or reverse it\nin your own words.\n\nThis post is already overlong, but I wish to tie it in to a question. I\nhave a feeling that the imagery of the phalus is tied in with this theme of\nself governance. The autarch carries an iron phalus around his neck. (He\nlater compares the fluid inside to that of semen when Sev is forced to eat\nhim in the jungle prison) Gurelos has a fake phalus, because he's a coward\nand can't use his real one. Sev calls Terminus Est his phallus and when it\nis broken (ouch) it is replaced by the pointed object of the Claw. The Claw\nin its earlier gem form has a little phallic imagery of its own, being\ncarried in a little soft sack of skin. Any thoughts on this?\n\nAnd Finally,\nI feel I need to be the Doubting Thomas on the little theory of the 13\nSeverian's. (remember now, I have not reread Urth of the New Sun yet) I\nthink we cannot look at Severian as Sev to the 13th power or anything like\nthat. I don't understand why the White Fountain and the Claw should be\nconsidered seprerate entities all their own. The Claw is merely a focus of\nSev2's own power that as he says himself he draws from the very earth and\nsky around him. We don't need to quantify this energy into newton's, or\nwonder what type of energy Sev is tapping (whether its Solar, Ocean, etc)\nThe power is that of RENEWAL and CREATION and is present in all things\nbecause everthing has passed through the hands of the Increate (as Sev\npoints out himself on the Beach) Sev was able to tap this infinite energy\nand funnel it through the Claw. The Claw does not have a mind of its own.\nWhy does the Claw sometimes act and sometimes doesn't? (Good question but I\ndon't think the answer is that its a seperate Severian) To make a Science\nout of Sev's powers is to act like Baldanders, thinking everything should be\nrational and quantifiable. And we saw what his thinking leads to, Ragnorak!\n\nI see the first Sev as being a part of the second Sev. It is Sev1 who Sev2\nfeels standing next to him at the Sang. Field. It is Sev1 who Sev2 finds he\nis praying to in the temple of the Pelerine's near the lazeret. Sev1 is\nlike a higher soul who has percieved the future. There is a religion (it\nsmacks of Shirley McClaine but bear with me) that believes that we are\nhigher beings who have sent a part of our soul down to Earth in order that\nwe may learn certain lessons. Our Higher soul stays in heaven and gives us\nstrenght and guidence and knows our fate. This religion believes when you\nhave a clairvoyant dream, or contant a guiding angel you are actually\ncontacting your higher soul. Because Sev's higher soul exists their is no\nneed to go spliting him into infinity (\"Sev 203 took the door on the right,\nbut Sev 204 took the door on the left). Sev's higher soul, et al, is\nresponsible for all the little miracles that directs Sev2's life, there need\nbe no more. This is all with in the first book. I understand things are\ndifferent when you start to configure Apu and the sleeper into the picture,\nand other anomalies in the sequel.\n\nFunkMonkey\nJ. Schutlz\njschultz at wcnet.org\nFrom: \"J. Schultz\" \nSubject: (urth) On a rereading\nDate: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:50:06 \n\nHaving taken a week long vacation I got a chance to reread the four books of\nthe New Sun. I am writing more as a reflection and coalescence of my own\nthoughts, rather than to anyone in particular. Bear with me if anything I\nsay repeats things said long ago in archieves or states the obvious that you\nalready figured out for yourself. Also, it has been sometime since I have\nread the sequel book so my speculations may contradict things contained in\nit.\n\nThe first 3 and a half books seem to deal with the theme of Severian\nbecoming his own man and casting off other authorities' hold on him. Every\nauthority that is, except that of the Increate. In each episode of Sev's\nlife he pledges his loyalty to a vestige of authority which is later broken\nby him. We see shy this breaking of authority is nessisary during the dream\nthat takes place after the play near the wall of Nessus. In the dream\nMalrubius reviews the several types of authority with Sev. He illustrates\npersonal loyalty to the throne is the strongest and most basic type of\nauthority. He leaves his argument open ended but implies that Sev must\nforge a personal loyatly to the Increate himself. Thus we see that those\nwho follow the church, or the crown, or the police, or those whoose\nloyalties lie indirectly with Increate are far more distant from Him. An\nexample of this are those who consider themselves 'born again.' They have a\nmuch stronger faith having found God for themselves than those who have been\nbrought up to believe the Church without question. Sev's life is a slow\nprocess of removing himself from outside authority and following what I\nguess should be called the 'True Path,' that of direct loyalty to the\nIncreate. Sev states that the Conciliator, if he had weapons used them on\nhimself and later makes alludes to the fact that he feels he is doing that\nhimself. He is killing of the parts of him that will blindly follow false\nauthority (all authority being false except that of the Increate) Earlier\nin this group we discussed Sev's turning point, which being a human and\nprone will not be black and white in Sev's life. The turning point is just\nbefore he attacks the castle of Baldanders when he pledges to follow the\nwill of the Increate above all others. All other events have led up to this\nand in rereading the passage I'm sure you'll agree. He breaks ties with the\nGuild, the Archon, Voudalus, Dr Talos' Death name tag, Typhon's will, etc.\netc. and finally forges his personal loyalty to God. The title Autarch as\nmeaning 'self ruler' also alludes to this theme.\nI probably could of said all that better, but its been a while since I've\nhad to write coherent thoughts. Feel free to state it better, or reverse it\nin your own words.\n\nThis post is already overlong, but I wish to tie it in to a question. I\nhave a feeling that the imagery of the phalus is tied in with this theme of\nself governance. The autarch carries an iron phalus around his neck. (He\nlater compares the fluid inside to that of semen when Sev is forced to eat\nhim in the jungle prison) Gurelos has a fake phalus, because he's a coward\nand can't use his real one. Sev calls Terminus Est his phallus and when it\nis broken (ouch) it is replaced by the pointed object of the Claw. The Claw\nin its earlier gem form has a little phallic imagery of its own, being\ncarried in a little soft sack of skin. Any thoughts on this?\n\nAnd Finally,\nI feel I need to be the Doubting Thomas on the little theory of the 13\nSeverian's. (remember now, I have not reread Urth of the New Sun yet) I\nthink we cannot look at Severian as Sev to the 13th power or anything like\nthat. I don't understand why the White Fountain and the Claw should be\nconsidered seprerate entities all their own. The Claw is merely a focus of\nSev2's own power that as he says himself he draws from the very earth and\nsky around him. We don't need to quantify this energy into newton's, or\nwonder what type of energy Sev is tapping (whether its Solar, Ocean, etc)\nThe power is that of RENEWAL and CREATION and is present in all things\nbecause everthing has passed through the hands of the Increate (as Sev\npoints out himself on the Beach) Sev was able to tap this infinite energy\nand funnel it through the Claw. The Claw does not have a mind of its own.\nWhy does the Claw sometimes act and sometimes doesn't? (Good question but I\ndon't think the answer is that its a seperate Severian) To make a Science\nout of Sev's powers is to act like Baldanders, thinking everything should be\nrational and quantifiable. And we saw what his thinking leads to, Ragnorak!\n\nI see the first Sev as being a part of the second Sev. It is Sev1 who Sev2\nfeels standing next to him at the Sang. Field. It is Sev1 who Sev2 finds he\nis praying to in the temple of the Pelerine's near the lazeret. Sev1 is\nlike a higher soul who has percieved the future. There is a religion (it\nsmacks of Shirley McClaine but bear with me) that believes that we are\nhigher beings who have sent a part of our soul down to Earth in order that\nwe may learn certain lessons. Our Higher soul stays in heaven and gives us\nstrenght and guidence and knows our fate. This religion believes when you\nhave a clairvoyant dream, or contant a guiding angel you are actually\ncontacting your higher soul. Because Sev's higher soul exists their is no\nneed to go spliting him into infinity (\"Sev 203 took the door on the right,\nbut Sev 204 took the door on the left). Sev's higher soul, et al, is\nresponsible for all the little miracles that directs Sev2's life, there need\nbe no more. This is all with in the first book. I understand things are\ndifferent when you start to configure Apu and the sleeper into the picture,\nand other anomalies in the sequel.\n\nFunkMonkey\nJ. Schutlz\njschultz at wcnet.org" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-10-27T21:31:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) blastoDePasto v2: Schultz post", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The first 3 and a half books seem to deal with the theme of Severian\nbecoming his own man and casting off other authorities' hold on him. Every\nauthority that is, except that of the Increate. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems to be the basic meat of the story.\nGlad I read this before finishing Sword of the Lictor again, because it helped me makes sense of the final musing of that book, when Severian is looking at the Claw broken out of it's corundum enclosure:\n\n\"At last, after a long series of these bold advances and fearful\nretreats, I came to understand that I should never reach any real\nknowledge of the tiny thing I held, and with that thought (for it was\na thought) came a third state, one of happy obedience to I knew not\nwhat, an obedience without reflection because there was no longer\nanything to reflect upon, and without the least tincture of rebellion.\nThis state endured all that day and a large part of the next, by which\ntime I was already deep into the hills.\"" } ] } ] }