{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5202", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5202, "subject": "Random thoughts on AEG", "messages": 12, "voices": 5, "first": "2008-10-29T15:15:58+00:00", "last": "2008-10-30T15:28:22+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigelaprice at talktalk.net" }, "date": "2008-10-29T15:15:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just tossing some random half-thoughts, ideas and speculations around\nhere...\n\n1\tIf Bill Reis is a Christ figure, is the US president's desire to gain his\nsecret of manufacturing gold analogous to the people's reaction to the\nfeeding of the 5,000. They search for Jesus, but only because they want more\nbread, not because they understand the significance of the miracle (John\n6.26)?\n\n2\tI'm still not sure about the signigifance of gold in AEG, especially as\nthe quotation from Simonides at the start of the book refers to gold as \"an\nevil guest\". It seems much more natural to interpret the squid god as THE\nevil guest in the story. On the other hand, it's Reis' willingness to give\nhis gold away, or at least use it as a lure for the US Navy, that leads to\nthe attack on the squid's sunken city. The gold proves to be an unwelcome\nguest for Squiddie.\n\n3\tWe can find all sorts of meanings and associations for the name \"Gideon\",\nbut the association that springs to mind for most people (\"Rocky Raccoon\",\nanyone?) is \"Gideon's bible\", referring to a bible placed in a hotel room or\nhospital by the Gideons International organisation. So, could the name\n\"Gideon Chase\" be meant to refer to the bible in some way? The character's\nsurname, \"Chase\", surely refers to the fact that he acts as a detective.\nHe's \"chasing\" Bill Reis. So, are we to suppose that in some allegorical\nfashion, it's the bible that starts Cassie's search for Christ? If that were\nthe case, her and Chase's initial interpretation of Reis' nature is clearly\nwrong... Or is it just that Reis himself changes, and becomes more\nChrist-like?\n\n4\tDoes Gideon Chase remind anyone else around here of Bruce Wayne/Batman?\nMaybe it's his black super-car/hopper that brought that association to mind.\nMany of the Batman films have emphasised 1940s design values. I wonder\nwhether they influenced the design values in AEG (see 6 below!)?\n\n5\tIs Cassie, who has been married twice before and loves both Chase and\nReis, another of Wolfe's Gomer/whorish-wife figures? (See Hosea 1.1ff and\ncompare Silk's love for Hyacinth in \"Long Sun\".) The unworthy and unfaithful\nbut deeply loved woman who represents Israel/the church...\n\n6\tIs there a King Kong subtext buried somewhere in this novel? As others\nhave pointed out, Wolfe has written the novel as though it were an 1930s/40s\nfilm. The characterisations and even the dialogue are right out of a black\nand white film of that era. Some people have reacted negatively to these\naspects and see scenes like the encounter with the mountie as just bad,\nwhereas I think that what Wolfe is doing is a thorough pastiche of films\nfrom this period, including the quips and smart-alec dialogue that can often\nsound laboured to our ears now. But did Wolfe have a specific film in mind?\nMaybe it's just the South Sea Island theme that emerges late in AEG that\nreminds me of \"King Kong\", but that film too is about sacrifice. At one\npoint, the tribe on Skull Island offer the film's heroine as a sacrifice to\ntheir god Kong, but he falls in love with her and carries her off rather\nthan devouring her. He defends her from other monsters (dinosaurs) on Skull\nIsland and later, in New York, protects her (in a manner or speaking) from\nthe aircraft that shoot at him while he's climbing the Empire State\nBuilding. There was a recent film remake of \"King Kong\"... Is Reis, the\nfinancial giant, a metaphorical Kong substitute, tamed by Cassie's\nloveliness? \"It was beauty killed the beast!\"\n\n7\tIs there a Chestertonian \"Man who was Thursday\" thing going on AEG? The\nhero in Chesterton's novel is a detective recruited to go after the seven\nmembers of the Central Council of Anarchists, each of whom, when he corners\nthem, turns out to be another under-cover detective on the same mission. The\nseventh and last member of the council, Sunday, turns out to be a\nChrist-like figure rather than a super villain. Is this the basic template\nfor AEG? Cassie is recruited to go after a super villain who turns out not\nto be a villain but a Christ-figure?\n\nJust thinking aloud here! Comments, anyone?\n\nNigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigelaprice at talktalk.net" }, "date": "2008-10-29T16:07:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random Thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "8\tWas anyone else struck by the thought that Wolfe is making a wicked pun by\ncalling Cassie's agent Zelda Youmans?\n\nI take it that \"Zelda Youmans\" stands for \"sell the humans\".\n\nWhether this is just a little joke about agents, or whether it is a comment\non Zelda's allegiances, I'm not sure. I rather assume the former, but I'm\nhappy to hear a case for the latter.\n\nNigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-29T16:31:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random Thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Nigel Price wrote:\n8 Was anyone else struck by the thought that Wolfe is making a wicked pun by\ncalling Cassie's agent Zelda Youmans?\n\nI take it that \"Zelda Youmans\" stands for \"sell the humans\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hide the weapons from the women, in the case you should faint." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigelaprice at talktalk.net" }, "date": "2008-10-29T20:01:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "6\tKing Kong\n\nSorry, I didn't read the early messages on AEG becuase at the time I still\nhadn't got my copy of the book. I'm rereading them now and see that Don\nDoggett mentioned King Kong in his very first, non-spoiler, review of AEG:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And this is a pulp novel, from the cover to\nthe last page. It riffs on Lovecraft,\nThe Circus of Dr. Lao (absolute required\nreading before or after reading this book),\nKing Kong, The Shadow, and god knows what\nelse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Kudos to Don for being their first by a long way!\n\nNigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigelaprice at talktalk.net" }, "date": "2008-10-29T20:02:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...Or even \"there\" first!\n\nN." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigelaprice at talktalk.net" }, "date": "2008-10-29T21:28:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "4\tOK, on Wed Sep 24 20:55:32 PDT 2008, Matthew Keeley had already picked up\non the Batman thing and mentioned what I had noticed while reading but\nforgotten while writing, namely that Cassie specifically refers to Batman,\nalbeit in the context of describing the alien bat-like creatures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also - those bat again... Cassie mentions Batman\nwhen she describes them to Sharon, but says they\nwere more \"manbats.\" There's actually a Batman\ncharacter named Man-Bat, a scientist who transforms\ninto a bat-creature after ingesting the wrong\nchemicals... I'm going to assume Wolfe doesn't\nknow this and this isn't a hint, as Wolfe doesn't\nseem the type to be up on Bat-trivia...\n\nMan-Bat link: \"On Leather Wings\" from the Batman\nAnimated Series: http://video.aol.com/video/on-leather-wings/1727987\n\nSpeaking of Batman, I'm mildly surprised we never\nhad a discussion of The Dark Knight here. Fantastic\nfilm I thought." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But this doesn't pick up on the Gideon as Batman question.\n\nI'd better keep reading through the last two months' worth of AEG\ndiscussion!\n\nNigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<76263EE0-3021-4E3F-A16A-27ABE7AE5B3F@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-10-29T21:31:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 29, 2008, at 4:28 PM, Nigel Price wrote:\n4\tOK, on Wed Sep 24 20:55:32 PDT 2008, Matthew Keeley had already \npicked up\non the Batman thing and mentioned what I had noticed while reading but\nforgotten while writing, namely that Cassie specifically refers to \nBatman,\nalbeit in the context of describing the alien bat-like creatures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Bats with Baby Faces\" -- anyone fancy having a go at the Eliot \nconnection?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000301c93a15$aed10d30$0c732790$@com>", "from": { "name": "Brian Lovely", "address": "brian at studiobl.com" }, "date": "2008-10-29T22:28:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "<76263EE0-3021-4E3F-A16A-27ABE7AE5B3F@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "QUOTE\nSo, could the name \"Gideon Chase\" be meant to refer to the bible in some way\nQUOTE\n\nI haven't read AEG, but I couldn't help butting in. A Gideon bible is\nplaced by an outside actor (member of Gideon International) in case it is\nneeded (midnight crisis of faith on the road). Could this somehow describe\nGideon Chase? \n\n--Brian" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigelaprice at talktalk.net" }, "date": "2008-10-30T00:58:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "<000301c93a15$aed10d30$0c732790$@com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "6\tI raised King Kong, 30s pulp and reproducing the cliches of the genre:\nDave Lebling addressed the whole 30s pulp issue brilliantly back on Sat Sep\n27 19:12:09 PDT 2008..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The book is obviously built around an homage\nto the pulp fiction of the 1930s. Detective\nstory, theater story, Lovecraftian horror,\ndetective story, \"strange powers\" story (notice\nthe mention of a man named Cranston who could\ndisappear), South Seas adventure/love story,\nand on and on. Wolfe is having a lot of fun\nhere. He's also using all the cliches of the\ngenres he includes, right up to the (grating\nto today's ears) naive and friendly/dangerous\nNatives to the Japanese Com Pu Ter who can't\npronounce Ls. None of that makes any sense in\n2100, but in 1935 it was what pulps had." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and we can include the awful faux English accent of King Kanoa, which\nreproduces the awfully mannered accents used by supposedly British\ncharacters in American films of the 30s and 40s.\n\nWhile we're on King Kanoa (\"King Canoe\"? King Canute?), there are a couple\nof spellings in AEG that had me wondering whether the book was either poorly\nproofread (like my posts!) or set in a parallel universe. King Kanoa refers\nto his school as \"Eaton\", when he presumably means \"Eton\", and earlier in\nthe book, Gideon Chase quotes a poet he refers to as \"Spencer\", when he\nactually means Edmund Spenser. (Others have made the same mistake, including\nthose who arranged his memorial in Westminster Abbey, if memory serves me\nright, but still, Wolfe should know it's Spenser with an S!)\n\nFor anyone interested, Gideon chase quotes Spenser on page 78 of AEG:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gideon nodded to himself as he signed.\n\"'One may buy gold at a price too deare.'\nWho said that? Spencer?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The quotation comes from line 108 of the August eclogue in Spenser's \"The\nShepheardes Calender\". The phrase is proverbial, however, and Spenser was\nneither the first nor last to use it.\n\nIn the context of allegorical interpretations of AEG and the significance of\ngold in the story, Matthew Henry's use of the proverb is interesting. In his\n\"Concise Commentary\", he writes concerning the Parable of the Pearl of Great\nPrice in Matthew 13.44-52:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A man may buy gold too dear, but not this\nPearl of great price." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10810292029sf74d8cvf11f2ef635e0567d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-30T03:29:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Nigel Price wrote:\n\nYes, and we can include the awful faux English accent of King Kanoa, which\nreproduces the awfully mannered accents used by supposedly British\ncharacters in American films of the 30s and 40s.\n\nWhile we're on King Kanoa (\"King Canoe\"? King Canute?), there are a couple\nof spellings in AEG that had me wondering whether the book was either poorly\nproofread (like my posts!) or set in a parallel universe. King Kanoa refers\nto his school as \"Eaton\", when he presumably means \"Eton\", and earlier in\nthe book, Gideon Chase quotes a poet he refers to as \"Spencer\", when he\nactually means Edmund Spenser. (Others have made the same mistake, including\nthose who arranged his memorial in Westminster Abbey, if memory serves me\nright, but still, Wolfe should know it's Spenser with an S!)\n\n\nNigel" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is the pulp being referenced exclusively American? King Kanoa's\nEnglish actually wouldn't be too out-of-place in some English novels.\nConsider Lord Peter Wimsey's parody / epitome of that sort of chatty\nBrit in Dorothy Sayers' novels. Or the two cricket fans in Hitchcock's\nfilm The Lady Vanishes (who reappear in some non-Hitchcock films)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From a website on names for children:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The boy's name Kanoa \\k(a)-noa\\ is pronounced ka-NOH-ah. It is of\nHawaiian origin, and its meaning is \"the free one.\"\n\nI remember one interview where Wolfe discussed the importance of\nfreedom in AEG and how Gid may be \"the most free of all.\"\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigelaprice at talktalk.net" }, "date": "2008-10-30T09:45:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10810292029sf74d8cvf11f2ef635e0567d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Keeley wrote:\nIs the pulp being referenced exclusively American?\nKing Kanoa's English actually wouldn't be too\nout-of-place in some English novels. Consider\nLord Peter Wimsey's parody / epitome of that sort\nof chatty Brit in Dorothy Sayers' novels. Or the\ntwo cricket fans in Hitchcock's film The Lady\nVanishes (who reappear in some non-Hitchcock films)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The two cricket fans in \"The Lady Vanishes\" are called Charters and\nCaldicott.\n\nYour point about the exagerated speech patterns in British literature and\nfilms of the period is well made, though my impression remains that Wolfe is\nprimarily referencing American models in AEG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I remember one interview where Wolfe discussed\nthe importance of freedom in AEG and how Gid may\nbe \"the most free of all.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you remember which interview this was?\n\nNigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10810300828h66f90b7cy7cdc2c540b8dae5f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-30T15:28:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:45 AM, Nigel Price wrote:\n\nCan you remember which interview this was?\n\nNigel" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, and it's driving me nuts. I don't think I hallucinated it, but not\nhaving much luck with Google at the moment.\n\n-Matt" } ] } ] }