{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5204", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5204, "subject": "AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian?", "messages": 9, "voices": 8, "first": "2008-11-03T17:59:38+00:00", "last": "2008-11-05T17:16:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Mullen", "address": "kieran at nhn.ou.edu" }, "date": "2008-11-03T17:59:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(I have sent this in several times and I never saw it on the list or \non the webserver. I am resending it. I apologize if it appears more \nthan once.)\n\n A very good friend of mine who has written books on horror films and \nfiction recent finished \"An Evil Guest.\" It was quite a slog for him \n- he found Cassie to be an unappealing protagonist and the pastiche of \ngenres annoyed him. However, his biggest complaint was that the book \nis billed as Lovecraftian horror and it simply isn't.\n\n That needs a bit of explanation. For a work to be Lovecraftian I \ndon't think it is simply sufficient to stick in Hastur and Cthulu and \ncall it that. Lovecraft (IMO) came up with a truly original \nontological horror premise for his fiction: the universe is dominated \nby inhuman forces which we don't have a hope of understanding or \ndefeating. At best we can only hope that they ignore us. (We can't \neven pray that they do - there is no God, only atoms and a void). \nHumanity is a minor irrelevance in a dark and hungry universe. Any \nattempt to try to change that will only draw the attention of forces \nthat will destroy the inquirer.\n\n AEG dabbles in many pulp genres without really investing in any \nsingle one: the rising theatrical star, the hard-boiled detective, \nthe South Sea adventure, and (in this view), Lovecraftian horror. On \nthe other hand, it may actually have a more horrifying subtext than I \nunderstand, if the reality-warping effects of Cassies \"elevation\" are \nmeant to show that reality is not what we know it to be. I am not \nsure how the last fifty pages of the novel demand a re-interpretation \nof the first parts. Otherwise, it seems that the Lovecrfaft elements \nat the end are tacked on, and not essential to the earlier parts of \nthe novel.\n\n So what do you think? Is AEG just a romp through different \ngenres or is it really meant to be a horror novel?\n\n\nKieran Mullen" } ] }, { "message_id": "<490F6543.8020506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-11-03T20:55:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Kieran Mullen wrote:\n That needs a bit of explanation. For a work to be Lovecraftian I \ndon't think it is simply sufficient to stick in Hastur and Cthulu and \ncall it that. Lovecraft (IMO) came up with a truly original \nontological horror premise for his fiction: the universe is dominated \nby inhuman forces which we don't have a hope of understanding or \ndefeating. At best we can only hope that they ignore us. (We can't \neven pray that they do - there is no God, only atoms and a void). \nHumanity is a minor irrelevance in a dark and hungry universe. Any \nattempt to try to change that will only draw the attention of forces \nthat will destroy the inquirer.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given that Wolfe is a Christian I doubt very much that he would write a \nwork consistent with such a nihilistic Lovecraftian premise. But other \nwriters, such as August Derleth (also a Christian), have expanded the \nLovecraft universe to include a more classical view of good vs. evil. To \nme, true horror cannot exist in a universe where our ideas of sanity and \ngoodness are a mere fluke, a cosmic joke. The efforts of the \nprotagonists become simply silly.\n\nBut I don't think the Lovecraft parts are simply tacked on. From the \nbeginning Reis announced his intention to retire to the South Seas (p. \n14). This cannot be a coincidence. Reis may have learned something \nduring his time as ambassador to Woldercan. He may have realized there \nwas a connected menace on Earth and determined to fight it. To some \ndegree his provoking a fight between Squiddy and the Navy seems to have \nbeen a success. At the very least the storms took out many Cthulhu \nworshipers on the neighboring islands.\n\nEven Lovecraft allowed the forces of good to succeed sometimes, for \nexample in \"The Dunwich Horror.\" Even he could not help rooting for \nhumanity against the monsters." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-11-03T21:11:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian?", "in_reply_to": "<490F6543.8020506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 3, 2008, at 2:55 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nEven Lovecraft allowed the forces of good to succeed sometimes, for \nexample in \"The Dunwich Horror.\" Even he could not help rooting for \nhumanity against the monsters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One can make the argument that \"The Dunwich Horror\" is like that \nprecisely *because* it is a Machen pastiche, and Arthur Machen was a \nChristian who did not share the Lovecraftian view of the world. That, \nindeed, is exactly Ken Hite's argument.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bryan Alexander", "address": "bryan.alexander at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-03T22:10:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian?", "in_reply_to": "<490F6543.8020506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I admit to bringing a Lovecraftian perspective to my reading of AEG. That\nwas due in part to various things I'd heard about the novel, which were then\nbrought to mind with the HPL inscription. So I suspected far more cosmic\nhorror from various quarters, including the flapping creature, than I ended\nup with.\nMy Phil Dick-style expectations were confirmed instead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nKieran Mullen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " That needs a bit of explanation. For a work to be Lovecraftian I don't\nthink it is simply sufficient to stick in Hastur and Cthulu and call it\nthat. Lovecraft (IMO) came up with a truly original ontological horror\npremise for his fiction: the universe is dominated by inhuman forces which\nwe don't have a hope of understanding or defeating. At best we can only\nhope that they ignore us. (We can't even pray that they do - there is no\nGod, only atoms and a void). Humanity is a minor irrelevance in a dark\nand hungry universe. Any attempt to try to change that will only draw the\nattention of forces that will destroy the inquirer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given that Wolfe is a Christian I doubt very much that he would write a\nwork consistent with such a nihilistic Lovecraftian premise. But other\nwriters, such as August Derleth (also a Christian), have expanded the\nLovecraft universe to include a more classical view of good vs. evil. To me,\ntrue horror cannot exist in a universe where our ideas of sanity and\ngoodness are a mere fluke, a cosmic joke. The efforts of the protagonists\nbecome simply silly.\n\nBut I don't think the Lovecraft parts are simply tacked on. From the\nbeginning Reis announced his intention to retire to the South Seas (p. 14).\nThis cannot be a coincidence. Reis may have learned something during his\ntime as ambassador to Woldercan. He may have realized there was a connected\nmenace on Earth and determined to fight it. To some degree his provoking a\nfight between Squiddy and the Navy seems to have been a success. At the very\nleast the storms took out many Cthulhu worshipers on the neighboring\nislands.\n\nEven Lovecraft allowed the forces of good to succeed sometimes, for example\nin \"The Dunwich Horror.\" Even he could not help rooting for humanity against\nthe monsters.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigelaprice at talktalk.net" }, "date": "2008-11-04T00:04:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Kieran Mullen asks..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So what do you think? Is AEG just a romp\nthrough different genres or is it really meant\nto be a horror novel?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I don't think that AEG is a Lovecraftian horror story in the sense that\nyou define. As far as I understand - which is not very far at all - it\nborrows some Lovecraftian elements, but does not share their underlying\nphilosophy, their \"ontological horror premise\" (great phrase!).\n\nI've read back through all the posts here on AEG and I've reread bits of the\nstory but I still don't really understand how all the parts of the book fit\ntogether. I'm trying to work it out. The nature of Gideon Chase seems to be\nkey. That in turn, because Gideon was born there and is probably a\nhuman-Woldercanese hybrid, is tied up with the moral status of the planet\nWoldercan.\n\nWolfe depicts Woldercan as a place which has talking fish, dangerous\nforests, alchemy and different physics. The inhabitants superficially\nresemble humans but are subtly different. They can breed successfully with\nlower animals, including humans, and male Woldercaners try to seduce and\nmate with human females. All in all, Woldercan sounds more like Fairyland\nthan a conventional science fiction alien planet. If it is a sort of SF\nFairyland, that would make the Wolders fairies, or fairy analogues anyway.\n\nThe moral status of fairies and Fairyland is moot in the European tradition.\nSometimes they are morally equivalent to humans, with the \"good\" and \"bad\"\nfairies familiar in children's stories. Often, though, they are depicted as\nbeing amoral and \"other\", outside human schemes of morality and, when their\nstories get merged with the Christian tradition, outside the divine scheme\nof salvation.\n\nYet another tradition, evident in stories like that of Tam Lin and some\nversions of Thomas the Rhymer, has Fairyland as a subsidiary dominion of\nHell to which it pays tax (usually every seven years) in the form of human\nsouls. Fairies in this tradition become similar to devils or demons.\n\nIn the opening chapter of AEG, Gideon tells the President that there is no\nsuch thing as good and evil. His position seems to be that there is no such\nthing as absolute good or evil, only things that we ourselves disapprove of.\nIf he means that no person is ever wholly good or wholly evil, he must\nsurely be right. If he means that good and evil do not themselves exist,\nthen, from Wolfe's perspective as a Christian, he must surely be wrong. He\nseems to mean both, which is confusing!\n\nGideon's perspective is either that of an amoral alien, analogous to the\namoral fairies I described above, with no human sense of good or evil, or he\nhimself is evil and is deceiving others with his untruths, which makes him\nmore of the \"demonic\" type of alien/fairy.\n\nWolfe has stated in interviews that his starting point for AEG was the idea\nof a detective who was a wizard. Gideon is a wizard, and certainly the\narchetypal wizard, Merlin, is half-human and half-devil in some accounts of\nhis parentage.\n\nBy this account, Gideon is at best amoral and at worst positively evil.\n\nAt the start of AEG, the President of the United States attempts to recruit\nGideon to work with the FBI in catching Bill Reis. In many stories,\ncertainly in the 1930s pulp stories which Wolfe is pastiching, this would\nmake Gideon the good guy, an untouchable science fictional Eliot Ness. But\nthere's a strong element of satire in AEG. The USA over which the President\npresides is a place where abortion has become legalised child murder, and\nwhere the various federal agencies fight an endless turf war against each\nother, possibly under the manipulative influence of demonic submarine\naliens. The moral status of the President in this story is pretty cloudy,\nespecially as we later come to see that Bill Reis himself may be far from\nbeing the evildoer the President claims. As the President's agent, Gideon's\nmoral status is equally suspect.\n\nThat's at the start of the story. Does Gideon change?\n\nI'm not clear in my own mind whether Bill Reis starts off bad but is changed\nby the transforming power of his love for Cassie, or whether he was always\ngood and it just takes Cassie and the reader a long time to find the correct\nmoral orientation within the confusing landscapes of AEG. I think that\nthere's at least an element of the former because Bill Reis learned his\nalchemy and other tricks on the morally dubious Woldercan.\n\nEither way, Gideon's transforms Cassie into a star (her name, after all, is\nthat of an astronomical star) and its her loveliness which captures both\nGideon and Bill Reis' hearts. Somehow, this love helps to orientate all\nthree of them. Cassie chooses to marry Bill and Gideon goes to work for him,\nalthough he doesn't seem to break his agreement with the President so much\nas suspend it.\n\nThat seems to be one half of the story. Bill is inspired to self-sacrifice,\nCassie loves the Christ-like Bill and Gideon is working, at least for the\nmoment, for the good guys. Gideon may have transformed Cassie into a star in\norder to trap Reis, but the her power of beauty has transformed all three of\nthem for the better.\n\nBut the other half of the story seems to involve putting the bad guys into a\nproperly inverted hierarchy of wickedness.\n\nCassie's story of how she came to love the neighbour's dog is instructive in\nthis context. Scared of the neighbour's dog but even more scared of her\nviolently abusive father, she finds herself sheltering with the animal and\naccepting its protection. Her clear perception of the greater source of\ndanger enables her to accept the dog just as she later accepts the help of\nthe bat creatures which would otherwise have terrified her in order to\nescape the agents of the evil Storm God.\n\nThe US Navy act as agents of the bad American President and pursue Bill Reis\nfor his gold. Reis uses that gold, however, to direct them against the Squid\nGod. If the US President, his navy and other agencies are not made virtuous\nas such, they are at least properly directed against the greater evil of the\nmalevolent underwater alien.\n\nI still don't fully understand the ending. Why does Gideon return to\nWoldercan? Because it is his true home? Perhaps it's because the spell of\nCassie's star quality has been broken and without it he has fallen from\nvirtue back to his old immoral/amoral ways. I don't know what Cassie is\nlooking for.\n\nAs an allegory, AEG is confusing. But I don't think it is an allegory any\nmore than it's Lovecraftian horror. It uses allegory, or has an allegorical\ndimension, but there's a lot more going on and the correspondences between\ncharacters and qualities seem to be dynamic rather than static.\n\nNigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.1.2.1.20081103204441.02c565b0@pop.central.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "Dan", "address": "autarch at cox.net" }, "date": "2008-11-04T03:21:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:08 PM 11/3/2008, you wrote:\nMessage: 5\nDate: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:04:01 -0000\nFrom: \"Nigel Price\" \nSubject: (urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian?\nTo: \"Urth List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nKieran Mullen asks..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So what do you think? Is AEG just a romp\nthrough different genres or is it really meant\nto be a horror novel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, I don't think that AEG is a Lovecraftian horror story in the sense that\nyou define. As far as I understand - which is not very far at all - it\nborrows some Lovecraftian elements, but does not share their underlying\nphilosophy, their \"ontological horror premise\" (great phrase!)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would agree. The flaps/panels really try to sell this as one and it \ndisappointingly is not. Better to have not mentioned HPL tidbits at all\nand left them as a pleasant surprise for the reader." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the start of AEG, the President of the United States attempts to recruit\nGideon to work with the FBI in catching Bill Reis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you reread, they want to do this to learn of his stealth technique. \nRegardless, they want to kill him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " In many stories,\ncertainly in the 1930s pulp stories which Wolfe is pastiching, this would\nmake Gideon the good guy, an untouchable science fictional Eliot Ness. But\nthere's a strong element of satire in AEG. The USA over which the President\npresides is a place where abortion has become legalised child murder, and\nwhere the various federal agencies fight an endless turf war against each\nother, possibly under the manipulative influence of demonic submarine\naliens. The moral status of the President in this story is pretty cloudy,\nespecially as we later come to see that Bill Reis himself may be far from\nbeing the evildoer the President claims. As the President's agent, Gideon's\nmoral status is equally suspect.\n\nThat's at the start of the story. Does Gideon change?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. He learns of Reis' technique and orchestrates his death despite being \nemployed by him. Despite his declarations of love etc for Cassie, he does \nnothing to rescue her at the end, contact her (his ethermail was in \nresponse to her own) to discover her well being or as far as we know pay \nher the 80k he still owes her. The end implies she met with him but it is \napparent he does little or nothing to help her bring back Bill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not clear in my own mind whether Bill Reis starts off bad but is changed\nby the transforming power of his love for Cassie, or whether he was always\ngood and it just takes Cassie and the reader a long time to find the correct\nmoral orientation within the confusing landscapes of AEG. I think that\nthere's at least an element of the former because Bill Reis learned his\nalchemy and other tricks on the morally dubious Woldercan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis told her he planned to destroy her until she rode with him in his \nlimo. He also says he doesn't\nnormally kill his enemies, but win them over to his side if useful, or \ndefang them if not. I'm not sure if\nthis means Cassie is a powerful enemy that requires killing, or a lesser \none that is of no use to him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either way, Gideon's transforms Cassie into a star (her name, after all, is\nthat of an astronomical star) and its her loveliness which captures both\nGideon and Bill Reis' hearts. Somehow, this love helps to orientate all\nthree of them. Cassie chooses to marry Bill and Gideon goes to work for him,\nalthough he doesn't seem to break his agreement with the President so much\nas suspend it.\n\nThat seems to be one half of the story. Bill is inspired to self-sacrifice,\nCassie loves the Christ-like Bill and Gideon is working, at least for the\nmoment, for the good guys. Gideon may have transformed Cassie into a star in\norder to trap Reis, but the her power of beauty has transformed all three of\nthem for the better.\n\nBut the other half of the story seems to involve putting the bad guys into a\nproperly inverted hierarchy of wickedness.\n\nCassie's story of how she came to love the neighbour's dog is instructive in\nthis context. Scared of the neighbour's dog but even more scared of her\nviolently abusive father, she finds herself sheltering with the animal and\naccepting its protection. Her clear perception of the greater source of\ndanger enables her to accept the dog just as she later accepts the help of\nthe bat creatures which would otherwise have terrified her in order to\nescape the agents of the evil Storm God.\n\nThe US Navy act as agents of the bad American President and pursue Bill Reis\nfor his gold. Reis uses that gold, however, to direct them against the Squid\nGod. If the US President, his navy and other agencies are not made virtuous\nas such, they are at least properly directed against the greater evil of the\nmalevolent underwater alien.\n\nI still don't fully understand the ending. Why does Gideon return to\nWoldercan? Because it is his true home?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is because he successfully fulfilled his contract with the \nPresident and uncovered\nReis' technique and eliminated him as they discussed at the beginning. \nEither this is the reward\nhe truly wanted, or he needs the ambassadorship to learn Reis' technique in \norder to provide this\ninformatin to the President." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps it's because the spell of\nCassie's star quality has been broken and without it he has fallen from\nvirtue back to his old immoral/amoral ways. I don't know what Cassie is\nlooking for." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interestingly, Chase states to himself at one point he would still love her \nif he unmade her. Like all good pulp heroines,\nCassie is looking for love.\n\nDan " } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10811032015r6b994abanc764a9b3d87f3a31@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-04T04:15:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Nigel Price wrote:\n\nThe US Navy act as agents of the bad American President and pursue Bill Reis\nfor his gold. Reis uses that gold, however, to direct them against the Squid\nGod. If the US President, his navy and other agencies are not made virtuous\nas such, they are at least properly directed against the greater evil of the\nmalevolent underwater alien.\n\nNigel" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but I'm not sure how much Wolfe can condone this - he spent time\nas a soldier, and so I imagine he's pretty sympathetic to the poor\nsuckers on the boats, who, through no fault of their own, end up in a\nbattle with an eldritch horror. Surely Reis could have found a better\nway to tell the US about the Squid God? One that didn't result in mass\ndestruction of US forces?\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1856109366.20081105174759@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanisław Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2008-11-05T16:47:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3 listopada 2008, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Nov 3, 2008, at 2:55 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Even Lovecraft allowed the forces of good to succeed sometimes, for \nexample in \"The Dunwich Horror.\" Even he could not help rooting for \nhumanity against the monsters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One can make the argument that \"The Dunwich Horror\" is like that \nprecisely *because* it is a Machen pastiche, and Arthur Machen was a \nChristian who did not share the Lovecraftian view of the world. That,\nindeed, is exactly Ken Hite's argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ken Hite is intelligent and well-read, but superficial. He treats Lovecraft as a\nquaint idiot-savant with a literary talent. If you want a good\nintrodution to Lovecraft, I suggest Michel Houellebecq. He treats\nLovecraft seriously and attempts to understand what he tried to said,\n\nhttp://trashotron.com/agony/reviews/2005/houellebecq-lovecraft.htm\nhttp://blog.urbanomic.com/dread/archives/houellebecq-lovecraft.pdf\n\nLovecraft was a very intelligent man, and his perception of the world\nwas very clear. Most scientists limit their thinking to their\nprofessional area, and never consider the consequences for everyday\nlife. Perhaps rightly - the affair of James Watson, who dared to\napply the genetics to human races and intelligence shows that\ntoo much science won't be tolerated.\n\nhttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fury-at-dna-pioneers-theory-africans-are-less-intelligent-than-westerners-394898.html\n\nBut Lovecraft was uncompromising. He perceived clearly\nthat the unavoidable result of the acceptation of modern science\n(which he valued as a rationalist) will be the destruction of the\ncivilisation. And for Lovecraft the Western civilisation was clearly\nthe most valuable thing in the world. The impersonal blind cosmic\nforces don't value it, and even cannot understand it - but it is the\nresult of their own deficiency. The Western Civilisation is good, but\nit won't help it to survive in the alien cosmos. It is a beautiful\ndream, belonging in the Dreamlands, not in the real world (cf. The\nSearch of Unknown Kadath).\n\nIn Machen, the civilisation is threatened by Evil, supernatural evil\ndirected by destructive and hostile forces. Those forces are\ndangerous, but can be repulsed, although not destroyed. In Lovecraft\nthere is no evil as such. The civilisation is threatened by\ndissolution, from without (primitive Negroes, Polacks and similar aliens\ndragging down American cities) and from within (progress of science,\nwhich refutes the basic rules on which the civilisation is built).\n\nHis final treatment of that problem is \"The Mountains of Madness\".\nHere the rational civilisation of the Old Ones is destroyed both by\ninferior race and by their own science - they are defeated by the\nservant race of Shoggoths." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\nStanislaus B.\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nWymysl wierszyk, wygraj cyfrowke!\nSprawdz >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1f5a" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10811050916q4203b77x62f2f072afd1edbf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-05T17:16:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian?", "in_reply_to": "<1856109366.20081105174759@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Stanis?aw Bocian wrote:\n\nIn Machen, the civilisation is threatened by Evil, supernatural evil\ndirected by destructive and hostile forces. Those forces are\ndangerous, but can be repulsed, although not destroyed. In Lovecraft\nthere is no evil as such. The civilisation is threatened by\ndissolution, from without (primitive Negroes, Polacks and similar aliens\ndragging down American cities) and from within (progress of science,\nwhich refutes the basic rules on which the civilisation is built)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The thing about Lovecraft and race is that his personal life seems to\nbelie some of his writing. Remember that he married a Ukrainian Jew.\nStrange fellow, Lovecraft.\n\nReally good analysis there - it makes me want to go back and read more HPL.\n\n-Matt" } ] } ] }