# Change of Topic: Latro *The Urth list — 6 messages, 5 voices, 04 Nov 2008* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### PMorris33 at aol.com *04 Nov 2008, 01:56* Does anyone know if a fourth book in the Soldier series is being contemplated? After all, Latro has not been returned to his home. In a message dated 11/3/2008 5:09:14 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, urth-request at lists.urth.net writes: Send Urth mailing list submissions to urth at lists.urth.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to urth-request at lists.urth.net You can reach the person managing the list at urth-owner at lists.urth.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Urth digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian? (Bryan Alexander) 2. Stingray (Nigel Price) 3. Stingray (Nigel Price) 4. Re: Stingray (James Wynn) 5. AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian? (Nigel Price) 6. Stingray (Nigel Price) 7. Re: Stingray (Matthew Keeley) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:10:48 -0500 > From: "Bryan Alexander" > Subject: Re: (urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian? > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I admit to bringing a Lovecraftian perspective to my reading of AEG. That > was due in part to various things I'd heard about the novel, which were then > brought to mind with the HPL inscription. So I suspected far more cosmic > horror from various quarters, including the flapping creature, than I ended > up with. > My Phil Dick-style expectations were confirmed instead. > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Dave Tallman wrote: > > Kieran Mullen wrote: >> That needs a bit of explanation. For a work to be Lovecraftian I >> don't >> think it is simply sufficient to stick in Hastur and Cthulu and call it >> that. Lovecraft (IMO) came up with a truly original ontological horror >> premise for his fiction: the universe is dominated by inhuman forces >> which >> we don't have a hope of understanding or defeating. At best we can only >> hope that they ignore us. (We can't even pray that they do - there is >> no >> God, only atoms and a void). Humanity is a minor irrelevance in a dark >> and hungry universe. Any attempt to try to change that will only draw >> the >> attention of forces that will destroy the inquirer. > Given that Wolfe is a Christian I doubt very much that he would write a > work consistent with such a nihilistic Lovecraftian premise. But other > writers, such as August Derleth (also a Christian), have expanded the > Lovecraft universe to include a more classical view of good vs. evil. To > me, > true horror cannot exist in a universe where our ideas of sanity and > goodness are a mere fluke, a cosmic joke. The efforts of the protagonists > become simply silly. > > But I don't think the Lovecraft parts are simply tacked on. From the > beginning Reis announced his intention to retire to the South Seas (p. 14). > This cannot be a coincidence. Reis may have learned something during his > time as ambassador to Woldercan. He may have realized there was a connected > menace on Earth and determined to fight it. To some degree his provoking a > fight between Squiddy and the Navy seems to have been a success. At the > very > least the storms took out many Cthulhu worshipers on the neighboring > islands. > > Even Lovecraft allowed the forces of good to succeed sometimes, for example > in "The Dunwich Horror." Even he could not help rooting for humanity > against > the monsters. > > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List --- ### James Wynn *04 Nov 2008, 02:13 · in reply to PMorris33 at aol.com* Actually, I don't think Latro will ever get home until he passes through India, Micronesia, Columbia, Ireland, Britain, Germania, and Slavakia. I asked Wolfe once if he anticipated a wrap-up to the series and he said no. ----- Original Message ----- From: PMorris33 at aol.com To: urth at lists.urth.net Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 7:56 PM Subject: (urth) Change of Topic: Latro Does anyone know if a fourth book in the Soldier series is being contemplated? After all, Latro has not been returned to his home. In a message dated 11/3/2008 5:09:14 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, urth-request at lists.urth.net writes: Send Urth mailing list submissions to urth at lists.urth.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to urth-request at lists.urth.net You can reach the person managing the list at urth-owner at lists.urth.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Urth digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian? (Bryan Alexander) 2. Stingray (Nigel Price) 3. Stingray (Nigel Price) 4. Re: Stingray (James Wynn) 5. AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian? (Nigel Price) 6. Stingray (Nigel Price) 7. Re: Stingray (Matthew Keeley) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:10:48 -0500 > From: "Bryan Alexander" > Subject: Re: (urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian? > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I admit to bringing a Lovecraftian perspective to my reading of AEG. That > was due in part to various things I'd heard about the novel, which were then > brought to mind with the HPL inscription. So I suspected far more cosmic > horror from various quarters, including the flapping creature, than I ended > up with. > My Phil Dick-style expectations were confirmed instead. > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Dave Tallman wrote: > > Kieran Mullen wrote: >> That needs a bit of explanation. For a work to be Lovecraftian I don't >> think it is simply sufficient to stick in Hastur and Cthulu and call it >> that. Lovecraft (IMO) came up with a truly original ontological horror >> premise for his fiction: the universe is dominated by inhuman forces which >> we don't have a hope of understanding or defeating. At best we can only >> hope that they ignore us. (We can't even pray that they do - there is no >> God, only atoms and a void). Humanity is a minor irrelevance in a dark >> and hungry universe. Any attempt to try to change that will only draw the >> attention of forces that will destroy the inquirer. > Given that Wolfe is a Christian I doubt very much that he would write a > work consistent with such a nihilistic Lovecraftian premise. But other > writers, such as August Derleth (also a Christian), have expanded the > Lovecraft universe to include a more classical view of good vs. evil. To me, > true horror cannot exist in a universe where our ideas of sanity and > goodness are a mere fluke, a cosmic joke. The efforts of the protagonists > become simply silly. > > But I don't think the Lovecraft parts are simply tacked on. From the > beginning Reis announced his intention to retire to the South Seas (p. 14). > This cannot be a coincidence. Reis may have learned something during his > time as ambassador to Woldercan. He may have realized there was a connected > menace on Earth and determined to fight it. To some degree his provoking a > fight between Squiddy and the Navy seems to have been a success. At the very > least the storms took out many Cthulhu worshipers on the neighboring > islands. > > Even Lovecraft allowed the forces of good to succeed sometimes, for example > in "The Dunwich Horror." Even he could not help rooting for humanity against > the monsters. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Matthew Keeley *04 Nov 2008, 04:06 · in reply to James Wynn* > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 9:13 PM, James Wynn wrote: > Actually, I don't think Latro will ever get home until he passes through > India, Micronesia, Columbia, Ireland, Britain, Germania, and Slavakia. I > asked Wolfe once if he anticipated a wrap-up to the series and he said no. You forgot Japan and China. I wouldn't mind Latro in Ireland - Wolfe seems to have a penchant for Irish myth, but I don't know how much he's explored it outside of short stories and Peace. I wouldn't mind reading Latro meets Cu Chulainn and the leprechauns... -Matt --- ### Matthew Keeley *04 Nov 2008, 04:10 · in reply to Matthew Keeley* > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Matthew Keeley > wrote: > You forgot Japan and China. > > I wouldn't mind Latro in Ireland - Wolfe seems to have a penchant for > Irish myth, but I don't know how much he's explored it outside of > short stories and Peace. I wouldn't mind reading Latro meets Cu > Chulainn and the leprechauns... > > -Matt I need to proofread these messages more - two uses of the "I wouldn't mind" construction in two sentences. I apologize for the offense to good English. Anyone know if Wolfe has spent time in Ireland? Or just read a lot of Yeats? -Matt --- ### brunians at brunians.org *04 Nov 2008, 14:41 · in reply to James Wynn* He was home for a while off-stage, between volume two and volume three. He forgets. . > Actually, I don't think Latro will ever get home until he passes through > India, Micronesia, Columbia, Ireland, Britain, Germania, and Slavakia. I > asked Wolfe once if he anticipated a wrap-up to the series and he said no. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: PMorris33 at aol.com > To: urth at lists.urth.net > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 7:56 PM > Subject: (urth) Change of Topic: Latro > > > Does anyone know if a fourth book in the Soldier series is being > contemplated? After all, Latro has not been returned to his home. > > In a message dated 11/3/2008 5:09:14 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > urth-request at lists.urth.net writes: > Send Urth mailing list submissions to > urth at lists.urth.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > urth-request at lists.urth.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > urth-owner at lists.urth.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Urth digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian? (Bryan Alexander) > 2. Stingray (Nigel Price) > 3. Stingray (Nigel Price) > 4. Re: Stingray (James Wynn) > 5. AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian? (Nigel Price) > 6. Stingray (Nigel Price) > 7. Re: Stingray (Matthew Keeley) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:10:48 -0500 > From: "Bryan Alexander" > Subject: Re: (urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian? > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I admit to bringing a Lovecraftian perspective to my reading of AEG. > That > was due in part to various things I'd heard about the novel, which > were then > brought to mind with the HPL inscription. So I suspected far more > cosmic > horror from various quarters, including the flapping creature, than I > ended > up with. > My Phil Dick-style expectations were confirmed instead. > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Dave Tallman > wrote: > > > Kieran Mullen wrote: > > > >> That needs a bit of explanation. For a work to be Lovecraftian I > don't > >> think it is simply sufficient to stick in Hastur and Cthulu and > call it > >> that. Lovecraft (IMO) came up with a truly original ontological > horror > >> premise for his fiction: the universe is dominated by inhuman > forces which > >> we don't have a hope of understanding or defeating. At best we > can only > >> hope that they ignore us. (We can't even pray that they do - > there is no > >> God, only atoms and a void). Humanity is a minor irrelevance in > a dark > >> and hungry universe. Any attempt to try to change that will only > draw the > >> attention of forces that will destroy the inquirer. > >> > >> > > Given that Wolfe is a Christian I doubt very much that he would > write a > > work consistent with such a nihilistic Lovecraftian premise. But > other > > writers, such as August Derleth (also a Christian), have expanded > the > > Lovecraft universe to include a more classical view of good vs. > evil. To me, > > true horror cannot exist in a universe where our ideas of sanity and > > goodness are a mere fluke, a cosmic joke. The efforts of the > protagonists > > become simply silly. > > > > But I don't think the Lovecraft parts are simply tacked on. From the > > beginning Reis announced his intention to retire to the South Seas > (p. 14). > > This cannot be a coincidence. Reis may have learned something during > his > > time as ambassador to Woldercan. He may have realized there was a > connected > > menace on Earth and determined to fight it. To some degree his > provoking a > > fight between Squiddy and the Navy seems to have been a success. At > the very > > least the storms took out many Cthulhu worshipers on the neighboring > > islands. > > > > Even Lovecraft allowed the forces of good to succeed sometimes, for > example > > in "The Dunwich Horror." Even he could not help rooting for humanity > against > > the monsters. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Urth Mailing List > > To post, write urth at urth.net > > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > > > > > > -- > Bryan Alexander > http://infocult.typepad.com/ > http://twitter.com/BryanAlexander > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:33:59 -0000 > From: "Nigel Price" > Subject: (urth) Stingray > To: "Urth List" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > As I was writing about evil undersea cities and civilisations in AEG > and the > Urth Cycle, one part of my mind facetiously wandered and wondered > whether > Gene Wolfe had ever watched the Gerry Anderson puppet show "Stingray" > in the > 1960s. As I thought whimsically about it, the parallels scattered > through > his books became stronger and stranger. Was Seawrack inspired by > Marina? Was > the idea of the US Navy attacking the Storm God inspired by the sight > of > Troy Tempest and the WASPs attacking Titan and his aquaphibian > minions? > > No, of course not, it's a silly idea. It's not as if Wolfe ever refers > to > puppetry in his stories. > > Hang on there, wait a minute... > > What about that dream Severian has of the toy theatre and the > marionette > versions of himself and Baldander? > > Goodness! If I'm right, anything can happen in the next half hour... > > Nigel (in a playful mood) > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:00:41 -0000 > From: "Nigel Price" > Subject: (urth) Stingray > To: "Urth List" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Weird but true: Gerry Anderson and Ray Harryhausen were both speakers > at the > 1987 WorldCon in Brighton, England, which Gene and Rosemary Wolfe also > attended. > > Did Wolfe hear Gerry Anderson talk about his work? > > Then again, for anyone interested in creating submarine squid deities, > Harryhausen's amusing account of animating the six-limbed giant > octopus in > "It came from beneath the sea" might well have been inspirational. > (The > octopus only had six limbs because Harryhausen was on a tight budget > and an > even tighter timetable. Animating extra limbs takes time, and time is > money!) > > Nigel (who is trying to write a serious analysis of AEG - coming soon > - but > keeps getting distracted by whimsical notions) > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:57:00 -0600 > From: "James Wynn" > Subject: Re: (urth) Stingray > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: <8349DBE9E74F4391A5D742992EE9395D at GATEWAY> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > > No, of course not, it's a silly idea. It's not as if Wolfe ever > refers to > > puppetry in his stories. > > In The Book of the Short Sun, Horn remembers the following from his > childhood: > > "I once had a toy, a little wooden man in a blue coat who was moved by > strings. When I played with him, I made him walk and bow, and spoke > for him. > I practiced until I thought myself very clever. One day I saw my > mother > holding the two sticks that held his strings, and my little wooden man > saluting my youngest sister much more cleverly than I could have made > him do > it, and laughing with his head thrown back, then mourning with his > face in > his hands. I never spoke of it to my mother, but I was angry and > ashamed." > On Blue's Waters, pg. 158 > > Soon he after he was assaulted by the triple-jawed leatherskin---an > obvious > reference to Pinnochio's Dog-fish. > > J. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:04:01 -0000 > From: "Nigel Price" > Subject: (urth) AEG: Is AEG Lovecraftian? > To: "Urth List" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Kieran Mullen asks... > > >>So what do you think? Is AEG just a romp > >>through different genres or is it really meant > >>to be a horror novel? > > No, I don't think that AEG is a Lovecraftian horror story in the sense > that > you define. As far as I understand - which is not very far at all - it > borrows some Lovecraftian elements, but does not share their > underlying > philosophy, their "ontological horror premise" (great phrase!). > > I've read back through all the posts here on AEG and I've reread bits > of the > story but I still don't really understand how all the parts of the > book fit > together. I'm trying to work it out. The nature of Gideon Chase seems > to be > key. That in turn, because Gideon was born there and is probably a > human-Woldercanese hybrid, is tied up with the moral status of the > planet > Woldercan. > > Wolfe depicts Woldercan as a place which has talking fish, dangerous > forests, alchemy and different physics. The inhabitants superficially > resemble humans but are subtly different. They can breed successfully > with > lower animals, including humans, and male Woldercaners try to seduce > and > mate with human females. All in all, Woldercan sounds more like > Fairyland > than a conventional science fiction alien planet. If it is a sort of > SF > Fairyland, that would make the Wolders fairies, or fairy analogues > anyway. > > The moral status of fairies and Fairyland is moot in the European > tradition. > Sometimes they are morally equivalent to humans, with the "good" and > "bad" > fairies familiar in children's stories. Often, though, they are > depicted as > being amoral and "other", outside human schemes of morality and, when > their > stories get merged with the Christian tradition, outside the divine > scheme > of salvation. > > Yet another tradition, evident in stories like that of Tam Lin and > some > versions of Thomas the Rhymer, has Fairyland as a subsidiary dominion > of > Hell to which it pays tax (usually every seven years) in the form of > human > souls. Fairies in this tradition become similar to devils or demons. > > In the opening chapter of AEG, Gideon tells the President that there > is no > such thing as good and evil. His position seems to be that there is no > such > thing as absolute good or evil, only things that we ourselves > disapprove of. > If he means that no person is ever wholly good or wholly evil, he must > surely be right. If he means that good and evil do not themselves > exist, > then, from Wolfe's perspective as a Christian, he must surely be > wrong. He > seems to mean both, which is confusing! > > Gideon's perspective is either that of an amoral alien, analogous to > the > amoral fairies I described above, with no human sense of good or evil, > or he > himself is evil and is deceiving others with his untruths, which makes > him > more of the "demonic" type of alien/fairy. > > Wolfe has stated in interviews that his starting point for AEG was the > idea > of a detective who was a wizard. Gideon is a wizard, and certainly the > archetypal wizard, Merlin, is half-human and half-devil in some > accounts of > his parentage. > > By this account, Gideon is at best amoral and at worst positively > evil. > > At the start of AEG, the President of the United States attempts to > recruit > Gideon to work with the FBI in catching Bill Reis. In many stories, > certainly in the 1930s pulp stories which Wolfe is pastiching, this > would > make Gideon the good guy, an untouchable science fictional Eliot Ness. > But > there's a strong element of satire in AEG. The USA over which the > President > presides is a place where abortion has become legalised child murder, > and > where the various federal agencies fight an endless turf war against > each > other, possibly under the manipulative influence of demonic submarine > aliens. The moral status of the President in this story is pretty > cloudy, > especially as we later come to see that Bill Reis himself may be far > from > being the evildoer the President claims. As the President's agent, > Gideon's > moral status is equally suspect. > > That's at the start of the story. Does Gideon change? > > I'm not clear in my own mind whether Bill Reis starts off bad but is > changed > by the transforming power of his love for Cassie, or whether he was > always > good and it just takes Cassie and the reader a long time to find the > correct > moral orientation within the confusing landscapes of AEG. I think that > there's at least an element of the former because Bill Reis learned > his > alchemy and other tricks on the morally dubious Woldercan. > > Either way, Gideon's transforms Cassie into a star (her name, after > all, is > that of an astronomical star) and its her loveliness which captures > both > Gideon and Bill Reis' hearts. Somehow, this love helps to orientate > all > three of them. Cassie chooses to marry Bill and Gideon goes to work > for him, > although he doesn't seem to break his agreement with the President so > much > as suspend it. > > That seems to be one half of the story. Bill is inspired to > self-sacrifice, > Cassie loves the Christ-like Bill and Gideon is working, at least for > the > moment, for the good guys. Gideon may have transformed Cassie into a > star in > order to trap Reis, but the her power of beauty has transformed all > three of > them for the better. > > But the other half of the story seems to involve putting the bad guys > into a > properly inverted hierarchy of wickedness. > > Cassie's story of how she came to love the neighbour's dog is > instructive in > this context. Scared of the neighbour's dog but even more scared of > her > violently abusive father, she finds herself sheltering with the animal > and > accepting its protection. Her clear perception of the greater source > of > danger enables her to accept the dog just as she later accepts the > help of > the bat creatures which would otherwise have terrified her in order to > escape the agents of the evil Storm God. > > The US Navy act as agents of the bad American President and pursue > Bill Reis > for his gold. Reis uses that gold, however, to direct them against the > Squid > God. If the US President, his navy and other agencies are not made > virtuous > as such, they are at least properly directed against the greater evil > of the > malevolent underwater alien. > > I still don't fully understand the ending. Why does Gideon return to > Woldercan? Because it is his true home? Perhaps it's because the spell > of > Cassie's star quality has been broken and without it he has fallen > from > virtue back to his old immoral/amoral ways. I don't know what Cassie > is > looking for. > > As an allegory, AEG is confusing. But I don't think it is an allegory > any > more than it's Lovecraftian horror. It uses allegory, or has an > allegorical > dimension, but there's a lot more going on and the correspondences > between > characters and qualities seem to be dynamic rather than static. > > Nigel > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:10:14 -0000 > From: "Nigel Price" > Subject: (urth) Stingray > To: "Urth List" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thanks for that, James. I'd forgotten about that marionette reference > in > OBW. > > There's the story "The Toy Theater" in TIoDDaOSaOS too. That's all > about > marionettes. > > I started this thread as a sort of joke on myself, but now I'm really > beginning to wonder! > > Nigel > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 20:08:43 -0500 > From: "Matthew Keeley" > Subject: Re: (urth) Stingray --- ### Jeff Wilson *04 Nov 2008, 17:21 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* brunians at brunians.org, crushtv at gmail.com, and PMorris33 at aol.com, kindly trim the quoted material in your reply posts. You can read more about this genteel practice here: http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting.html ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` ---