{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/522", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 522, "subject": "Napoleon's Hand", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-04-30T15:10:54+00:00", "last": "1998-05-02T01:05:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David_Lebling", "address": "david_lebling at avid.com" }, "date": "1998-04-30T15:10:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Napoleon's Hand", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"William H. Ansley\" \nDoes anyone in this group know what Wolfe is referring to here? And is\nthere really biography of Napoleon by a man named Ludwig?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to know as well. To answer part of your question, there indeed\nis a biography of Napoleon by Emil Ludwig, which was published in 1926.\nIt was a best-seller.\n\nHow old is Weer on page 2? He's just a kid, right? This gives a good\nshot at his birth year, perhaps. If true, it seems likely to me that\nthe very beginning of _Peace_ takes place in our future: the tree\nplanted on Weer's grave has grown and fallen down. Weer would only be\nabout 80 right now, were he alive today. He lived to at least age 65,\naccording to his estimate of his age at the time of his stroke.\n\nThere's an article in ART BULLETIN (March, 1995) called \"Re-dressing\nClassical Statuary: The Eighteenth Century 'Hand-in-Waistcoat'\nPortrait,\" by Arline Miller. It claims, plonkingly enough, that this\nwas a standard portrait cliche that indicated \"manly boldness tempered\nwith modesty.\" Napoleon is associated with this pose because of David's\nfamous painting. The article suggests Napoleon may have learned the pose\nfrom Talma, the actor who taught the First Consul how to act imperial.\n\nI've also heard the claim that the hand-in-waistcoat was because\nNapoleon suffered from scrofula, but I don't have any references.\n\n --viz\n (david_lebling at avid.com)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-04-30T15:56:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Napoleon's Hand", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 David_Lebling at avid.com wrote:\nThere's an article in ART BULLETIN (March, 1995) called \"Re-dressing\nClassical Statuary: The Eighteenth Century 'Hand-in-Waistcoat'\nPortrait,\" by Arline Miller. It claims, plonkingly enough, that this\nwas a standard portrait cliche that indicated \"manly boldness tempered\nwith modesty.\" Napoleon is associated with this pose because of David's\nfamous painting. The article suggests Napoleon may have learned the pose\nfrom Talma, the actor who taught the First Consul how to act imperial." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps it was that \"debunking\" sort of answer that offended people, to\nWeer's surprise. I find people are often disappointed rather than\ngratified when you debunk a story with something ordinary, in this case\ndebunking the myth that this was a particularly Napoleonic thing to do and\nthat he had some nasty disease that made him do it.\n\nI can see Weer being the type who would think people might enjoy hearing\nthe truth and being surprised at negative reactions.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-05-02T01:05:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Napoleon's Hand", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David_Lebling at avid.com\nFrom: \"William H. Ansley\" \nDoes anyone in this group know what Wolfe is referring to here? And is\nthere really biography of Napoleon by a man named Ludwig?\n\nI'd like to know as well. To answer part of your question, there indeed\nis a biography of Napoleon by Emil Ludwig, which was published in 1926.\nIt was a best-seller.\n\nHow old is Weer on page 2? He's just a kid, right? This gives a good\nshot at his birth year, perhaps. If true, it seems likely to me that\nthe very beginning of _Peace_ takes place in our future: the tree\nplanted on Weer's grave has grown and fallen down. Weer would only be\nabout 80 right now, were he alive today. He lived to at least age 65,\naccording to his estimate of his age at the time of his stroke." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Were actually gives his age in the passage I am talking about. He is 13. He\nsays he read the book a year or so before. Let's say he read it at 10 at\nthe earliest. If he read it the year it was published, then the year he was\nborn was from 1914 to 1916 at the earliest. (You seem to have made very\nsimilar calculations, since you say that Weer would be about 80 if he were\nalive today, but I had to work it out for myself.) Of course he could have\nbeen born at any time after that. If Weer is a temporally equivalent alter\nego for Wolfe, then I would suppose Weer was born in 1931, as Wolfe was.\nWeer certainly describes no \"large\" historical events that can help us\nplace him in time. The world outside Cassionville and its immediate\nvicinity might as well not exist in his narrative for the most part.\n\nIf I understand you, you are saying that Weer's \"awakening\" from death,\ncaused by the falling of the elm tree on his grave, occurs in our future. I\nhave to agree with you here. If we take the earliest possible birthdate for\nWeer, 1914, and assume he dies at age 60 (almost certainly too early) he\nwould have died in 1974 and the oak sapling would have been planted then. I\nam a little vague about the growth rate of elm trees, but the fallen tree\nWeer describes seems quite large and I would guess it would take 25 to 50\nyears to get that big.\n\nThis places the earliest date of Weer's \"awakening\" at 1999. If Were were\nborn in 1931 and lived to be 65 and the tree grew on his grave for 50 years\nthen he \"awakens\" in 2046. This is probably a reasonable bracket for the\nlatest date, unless we want to assume Weer or the tree lived longer than\nthis.\n\nWell, I have gone on long enough here (most likely too long)!\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] } ] }