# making Wolfe-inspired music *The Urth list — 32 messages, 15 voices, 06 Nov 2008* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Ranjit Bhatnagar *06 Nov 2008, 21:32* I'm starting a new thread for the music stuff so it doesn't get mixed in with the political stuff. I'll set up a space on urth.net for sharing mp3s and such, if the project takes off. Also I'll use this as an excuse to repost my treatise explaining how k.d. lang's album Ingenue is really a retelling of The Book of the New Sun: http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0007/0597.shtml -ranjit --- ### Rjyan Kadwallader *06 Nov 2008, 21:36 · in reply to Ranjit Bhatnagar* Phaserprone Records has released at least 1 tape of Wolfe-tribute music. And in general I find their output to be very evocative of the same kind of landscape conjured in BOTNS. Unfortunately, their releases are so ornate and limited that the first part of a 4-part BOTNS-inspired series of music is already sold out.. I've heard the next installment will be available soon, though. -rk > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Ranjit Bhatnagar wrote: > I'm starting a new thread for the music stuff so it doesn't get mixed > in with the political stuff. I'll set up a space on urth.net for > sharing mp3s and such, if the project takes off. > > Also I'll use this as an excuse to repost my treatise explaining how > k.d. lang's album Ingenue is really a retelling of The Book of the New > Sun: http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0007/0597.shtml > > -ranjit > _______________________________________________ --- ### Rob Thornton *06 Nov 2008, 22:24 · in reply to Rjyan Kadwallader* > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader wrote: > Phaserprone Records has released at least 1 tape of Wolfe-tribute music. > And in general I find their output to be very evocative of the same kind of > landscape conjured in BOTNS. > > Unfortunately, their releases are so ornate and limited that the first part > of a 4-part BOTNS-inspired series of music is already sold out.. I've heard > the next installment will be available soon, though. actually, i own a copy of it. i dont have tape-to-tape facilites but i might be able to whip up some hissy mp3s over the next couple of weeks.... rob t ``` "Our plan is working perfectly. In mere days, hordes of gay Islamic abortionists will be streaming over the border from Mexico." --Daily Kos poster ``` --- ### Son of Witz *06 Nov 2008, 22:26 · follows Rob Thornton* > I'm starting a new thread for the music stuff so it doesn't get mixed > in with the political stuff. I'll set up a space on urth.net for > sharing mp3s and such, if the project takes off. > > Also I'll use this as an excuse to repost my treatise explaining how > k.d. lang's album Ingenue is really a retelling of The Book of the New > Sun: http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0007/0597.shtml > > -ranjit funny KD lang post, Ranjit, now put on Dark Side of the Moon with Wizard of Oz. :D since you mentioned mp3s, are image attachments viable (or verboten) on these mailing lists? I ask because there was some interest in my illustration. i should probably post a link, but I thought I'd ask. --- ### Adam Thornton *06 Nov 2008, 22:30 · in reply to Rob Thornton* > On Nov 6, 2008, at 4:24 PM, Rob Thornton wrote: > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader > wrote: >> Phaserprone Records has released at least 1 tape of Wolfe-tribute >> music. >> And in general I find their output to be very evocative of the same >> kind of >> landscape conjured in BOTNS. >> >> Unfortunately, their releases are so ornate and limited that the >> first part >> of a 4-part BOTNS-inspired series of music is already sold out.. >> I've heard >> the next installment will be available soon, though. > actually, i own a copy of it. i dont have tape-to-tape facilites but i > might be able to whip up some hissy mp3s over the next couple of > weeks.... If you can whip up hissy mp3s, I can use Audacity to make them less- hissy at the expense of some loss of brightness. On the other hand, since there are actual musicians on the list, I think it's probably a pretty good bet that there's someone around here to do it much better than I would be able to. Adam --- ### Son of Witz *06 Nov 2008, 22:33 · follows Adam Thornton* > actually, i own a copy of it. i dont have tape-to-tape facilites but i > might be able to whip up some hissy mp3s over the next couple of > weeks.... > > rob t speaking of hissy mp3s... Online I found the hissy mp3s of the SUN audio books (someone transferred them from tapes) and I joined them up into M3U files that have the Audiobook 'Resume' function. I've thought about sending them back out to the internet, but I don't want to be accused of piracy. I looked all over for legitimate copies to buy, but only found resellers who had it on CD, so obviously the original parties wouldn't have gotten any proceeds anyway. So these are out of print, in an obsolete medium, and they sound pretty crappy. Nonetheless, I've enjoyed listening to them right behind my reading, so I'm getting a 3rd pass simultaneous to my second read. I find that since I know the scenes better, having just read them, I often get bigger insights when listening, because the mind is less actively engaged in the reading effort. anyway, so what do you think? should I post em to rapidshare and share the links. I don't want Wolfe of Avers to be pissed at me. Roy Avers' reading is pretty great, FWIW. ~witz --- ### Ranjit Bhatnagar *06 Nov 2008, 22:33 · in reply to Son of Witz* I would discourage image attachments on the urth list. They probably won't show up in the digest or in the archives, and might annoy people on slow connections or Blackberries. Best to post a link, or email me privately and I'll post your image on urth.net. The same goes for mp3s or other large files you'd like to share. It might also be possible to host these things on the wolfe wiki, but I'll let the wiki's administrators comment on that! - ranjit > Son of Witz wrote: > funny KD lang post, Ranjit, > now put on Dark Side of the Moon with Wizard of Oz. :D > > since you mentioned mp3s, are image attachments viable (or verboten) on these mailing lists? I ask because there was some interest in my illustration. i should probably post a link, but I thought I'd ask. --- ### Son of Witz *06 Nov 2008, 22:34 · follows Ranjit Bhatnagar* > I would discourage image attachments on the urth list. They probably > won't show up in the digest or in the archives, and might annoy people > on slow connections or Blackberries. Best to post a link, or email me > privately and I'll post your image on urth.net. The same goes for > mp3s or other large files you'd like to share. cool, I figured there would be technical problems. I'll just post links. thanks. ~witz --- ### Mo Holkar / UKG *07 Nov 2008, 09:23 · in reply to Ranjit Bhatnagar* > At 22:33 06/11/2008, Ranjit wrote: > It might also be possible to host these things on the wolfe wiki, > but I'll let the wiki's administrators comment on that! Wiki policy is determined by the collective of its contributors, but hosting artwork or music would be a bit of a departure -- at the moment its content is just textual commentary. Although there is an area (currently rather sparse) for links to other-media Wolfe material held on other sites. best wishes, Mo # ~ # ~ # WolfeWiki now at: http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ --- ### Bryan Alexander *07 Nov 2008, 15:08 · in reply to Mo Holkar / UKG* Have we ever assembled a playlist of Wolfean music? I'm tempted to play around on Pandora, or maybe lastFM. > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 4:23 AM, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote: > At 22:33 06/11/2008, Ranjit wrote: >> It might also be possible to host these things on the wolfe wiki, but I'll >> let the wiki's administrators comment on that! > Wiki policy is determined by the collective of its contributors, but > hosting artwork or music would be a bit of a departure -- at the moment its > content is just textual commentary. Although there is an area (currently > rather sparse) for links to other-media Wolfe material held on other sites. > > best wishes, > > Mo > > > # ~ # ~ # > > WolfeWiki now at: > http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ > _______________________________________________ --- ### Greg Bates *08 Nov 2008, 02:52 · in reply to Bryan Alexander* I actually make very strange, lo-fi acoustic/electric stuff sometimes, often with a heavy Gene Wolfe bent. I could upload some tracks. I'm also considering starting up a Black Metal band called "Autarch"... > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Bryan Alexander > wrote: > Have we ever assembled a playlist of Wolfean music? I'm tempted to play > around on Pandora, or maybe lastFM. > > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 4:23 AM, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote: >> At 22:33 06/11/2008, Ranjit wrote: >>> It might also be possible to host these things on the wolfe wiki, but >>> I'll let the wiki's administrators comment on that! >> Wiki policy is determined by the collective of its contributors, but >> hosting artwork or music would be a bit of a departure -- at the moment its >> content is just textual commentary. Although there is an area (currently >> rather sparse) for links to other-media Wolfe material held on other sites. >> >> best wishes, >> >> Mo >> >> >> # ~ # ~ # >> >> WolfeWiki now at: >> http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Tim Walters *08 Nov 2008, 05:46 · in reply to Greg Bates* I hereby volunteer to compile and master the tracks, and host them on my site if that's what we want to do. Probably the highest-profile Wolfe-related piece of music already extant is "Row, Brothers, Row" by the Turtle Island String Quartet, from their album BY THE FIRESIDE (yes, a Christmas album; no, I don't know what it has to do with Christmas). Except for a short generic "jazzy" section in the middle it hits the folky-but-exotic tone of an Urth work song quite well. ``` Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com ``` --- ### Daniel Slatkin *08 Nov 2008, 06:44 · in reply to Tim Walters* Since we're all sharing music relating to Gene Wolfe, I take it everybody's seen this video now? Searched urth.net but only saw a little discussion on the song itself when it was released several years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqY0dCmAyNM Daniel > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Tim Walters wrote: > I hereby volunteer to compile and master the tracks, and host them on my > site if that's what we want to do. > > Probably the highest-profile Wolfe-related piece of music already extant is > "Row, Brothers, Row" by the Turtle Island String Quartet, from their album > BY THE FIRESIDE (yes, a Christmas album; no, I don't know what it has to do > with Christmas). Except for a short generic "jazzy" section in the middle it > hits the folky-but-exotic tone of an Urth work song quite well. > > -- > > Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com > _______________________________________________ --- ### Stuart Hamm *08 Nov 2008, 07:06 · in reply to Greg Bates* You know..I've resisted writing GW inspired music..quite a challenge from what I get from him and how to translate musically.. Write a song from a concept with changes, a melody. a sound and a vibe...but never actually state the changes or melody...but put musical clues as to what the melody MIGHT? be....hmmm.. Having said that I'm working on a Bass tour de force (hopefully) tentatively titled "Terminus Est"...presumptuous I know..that I'm trying to convince Steve Vai to play acoustic with me on as a duet.... it is what it is...sometimes I think too much.... Listening to Ry Cooder in El Paso...working nicely for me. S ???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 ???? Skype? stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm ? ??? stuarthamm.net --- On Fri, 11/7/08, Greg Bates wrote: From: Greg Bates Subject: Re: (urth) making Wolfe-inspired music To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 6:52 PM I actually make very strange, lo-fi acoustic/electric stuff sometimes, often with a heavy Gene Wolfe bent. I could upload some tracks. I'm also considering starting up a Black Metal band called "Autarch"... On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Bryan Alexander wrote: Have we ever assembled a playlist of Wolfean music? ?I'm tempted to play around on Pandora, or maybe lastFM. On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 4:23 AM, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote: At 22:33 06/11/2008, Ranjit wrote: It might also be possible to host these things on the wolfe wiki, but I'll let the wiki's administrators comment on that! Wiki policy is determined by the collective of its contributors, but hosting artwork or music would be a bit of a departure -- at the moment its content is just textual commentary. Although there is an area (currently rather sparse) for links to other-media Wolfe material held on other sites. best wishes, Mo # ~ # ~ # WolfeWiki now at: http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ ``` Bryan Alexander http://infocult.typepad.com/ http://twitter.com/BryanAlexander ``` --- ### Son of Witz *08 Nov 2008, 07:11 · in reply to Greg Bates* > On Nov 7, 2008, at 6:52 PM, Greg Bates wrote: > I'm also considering starting up a Black Metal band called > "Autarch"... ha. especially if it's conceptually what some call, (gulp) "unblack metal" , like the band "The Light Shall Prevail" that could go well with the self ruler concept. I want to hear a song called Amphisbaena that wrestles that concept. I keep coming back to that being one of the key symbols in the book. just spent the latter part of the evening cross hatching the scales of one. TGIF, you know. \m/ --- ### Stuart Hamm *08 Nov 2008, 07:14 · in reply to Daniel Slatkin* oh my god... that's EXACTLY what I had in mind....damnit not really OK I changed my mind my and won't call my piece TE...hehehe myspace.com/stuhamm ? ??? stuarthamm.net --- On Fri, 11/7/08, Daniel Slatkin wrote: From: Daniel Slatkin Subject: Re: (urth) making Wolfe-inspired music To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 10:44 PM Since we're all sharing music relating to Gene Wolfe, I take it everybody's seen this video now? Searched urth.net but only saw a little discussion on the song itself when it was released several years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqY0dCmAyNM Daniel > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Tim Walters > wrote: > I hereby volunteer to compile and master the tracks, and host them on my > site if that's what we want to do. > > Probably the highest-profile Wolfe-related piece of music already extant > is > "Row, Brothers, Row" by the Turtle Island String Quartet, from > their album > BY THE FIRESIDE (yes, a Christmas album; no, I don't know what it has > to do > with Christmas). Except for a short generic "jazzy" section in > the middle it > hits the folky-but-exotic tone of an Urth work song quite well. > > -- > > Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net --- ### Son of Witz *08 Nov 2008, 07:31 · in reply to Stuart Hamm* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqY0dCmAyNM Oh, you gotta love it. > , Stuart Hamm wrote: > You know..I've resisted writing GW inspired music..quite a challenge > from what I get from him and how to translate musically.. > Write a song from a concept with changes, a melody. a sound and a > vibe...but never actually state the changes or melody...but put > musical clues as to what the melody MIGHT be....hmmm.. > > Having said that I'm working on a Bass tour de force (hopefully) > tentatively titled "Terminus Est"...presumptuous I know..that I'm > trying to convince Steve Vai to play acoustic with me on as a duet.... > > it is what it is...sometimes I think too much.... > > Listening to Ry Cooder in El Paso...working nicely for me. all four of those sound great. counting "too much" as an entity. I can imagine a combination of windy mountain slow mo doom with Ascian explosion war percussion every 500th heartbeat, [Earth / Melvins / SUNNO)))], with strange bits of lo fi acoustic folk (somehow progged, perhaps by getting into medieval pythagorean tuning (SC3) ) that wanders in and out like it was a Sublime Frequencies release. mysterious, cinematic. bring in some sort of orchestral stuff for some action and drama, then use choral vocal work for the claw. big bottom brass for the citadel, and of course killer prog Baldanders battle. the get Astro-Nautical outer-space pirate psyche that gets you lost in the mirrored sails . but then that sounds like a secret chiefs 3 album. I've suggested he read it, of course. (have you heard the recent Xaphan: SC3 plays John Zorn Masada book two (vol 9) ? yowza that's a great ride. (I didn't do any art so I'm not shilling for sales FWIW) ~witz --- ### Tim Walters *08 Nov 2008, 08:06 · in reply to Son of Witz* I haven't "done" Wolfe, but I have been inspired by some other SF writers: "The Up-and-Out" (Cordwainer Smith) http://www.doubtfulpalace.com/artists/Shalmaneser/Ticker/07_the_up-and-out.mp3 (The agony and ecstasy of space travel. With krumhorn. From the album I sent off for duplication today, woo-hoo!) "Brother North-Wind's Secret" (John Crowley) http://www.doubtfulpalace.com/artists/Mercaptan/brother_north_wind.mp3 (Theme music for an imaginary show based on the children's book from LITTLE, BIG.) "Fondly Fahrenheit" (Alfred Bester) http://www.doubtfulpalace.com/artists/Shalmaneser/FW/05_Shalmaneser_FW_Fondly.mp3 (A robot goes crazy and kills people. A ragtime robot.) ``` Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com ``` --- ### Son of Witz *09 Nov 2008, 02:50 · in reply to Tim Walters* > On Nov 8, 2008, at 12:06 AM, Tim Walters wrote: > I haven't "done" Wolfe, but I have been inspired by some other SF > writers: > > "The Up-and-Out" (Cordwainer Smith) > http://www.doubtfulpalace.com/artists/Shalmaneser/Ticker/07_the_up-and-out.mp3 > (The agony and ecstasy of space travel. With krumhorn. From the > album I sent off for duplication today, woo-hoo!) I dug this. haven't checked out the others yet. here's a SC3 sub-band Electromagnetic Azoth doing a song about Philip Dick's UBIK. It really gets at the regressive/progressive theme. Bill Horist on guitar with Spruance editing and adding electronics. http://tinyurl.com/563t5j (didn't seem to load right in Safari, but worked in firefox.) --- ### Adam Thornton *09 Nov 2008, 16:21 · in reply to Son of Witz* > On Nov 8, 2008, at 1:31 AM, Son of Witz wrote: > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqY0dCmAyNM > > Oh, you gotta love it. Well, I do like the trinitarian aspect with Malrubius's ghost as Father and Thecla's as Holy Spirit. I hadn't looked at the relationship *that* way before. Adam --- ### Matthew Groves *09 Nov 2008, 16:41 · in reply to Son of Witz* > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 1:11 AM, Son of Witz wrote: > I want to hear a song called Amphisbaena that wrestles that concept. I keep > coming back to that being one of the key symbols in the book. I suppose it would have to be a crab canon. :) --- ### Son of Witz *09 Nov 2008, 16:52 · in reply to Matthew Groves* > On Nov 9, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Matthew Groves wrote: > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 1:11 AM, Son of Witz wrote: > I want to hear a song called Amphisbaena that wrestles that concept. > I keep coming back to that being one of the key symbols in the book. > > I suppose it would have to be a crab canon. :) that one sailed over my head. ? --- ### Adam Thornton *09 Nov 2008, 16:57 · in reply to Son of Witz* >> On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Son of Witz wrote: >> >> I suppose it would have to be a crab canon. :) > that one sailed over my head. ? That happens easily when you're a pair of ragged claws scuttling across the floors of silent seas. Adam --- ### Son of Witz *09 Nov 2008, 17:05 · in reply to Adam Thornton* >>> I suppose it would have to be a crab canon. :) >> that one sailed over my head. ? > That happens easily when you're a pair of ragged claws scuttling > across the floors of silent seas. oh, has that Amphisbaena been mapped to the Cancer constellation? --- ### Adam Thornton *09 Nov 2008, 17:06 · in reply to Adam Thornton* > On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Adam Thornton wrote: > > On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Son of Witz wrote: >>> I suppose it would have to be a crab canon. :) >> that one sailed over my head. ? > That happens easily when you're a pair of ragged claws scuttling > across the floors of silent seas. Oh now. Now I've done it. I have this *image* in my head I can't get rid of. So I'm going to inflict it on all the rest of you, because misery shared is misery lessened. It's T.S. Eliot, in a suit, holding a peach, looking down at it, worried and concerned. Then the camera pans a bit to the right, and _Pulp Fiction_-era Samuel L. Jackson is standing next to him, with an enormous pistol held to his head, shouting, "Well, DO you dare to eat that peach? DO YOU, MOTHERFUCKER?" I guess that would be "Quentin Tarantino Presents: Prufrock." (this now has me imagining Quentin Tarantino Directs William Carlos Williams' "This Is Just To Say") Adam --- ### Adam Thornton *09 Nov 2008, 17:12 · in reply to Son of Witz* >>>> On Nov 9, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Son of Witz wrote: >>>> >>>> I suppose it would have to be a crab canon. :) >>> that one sailed over my head. ? >> That happens easily when you're a pair of ragged claws scuttling >> across the floors of silent seas. > oh, has that Amphisbaena been mapped to the Cancer constellation? I don't think that association is considered canonical. Adam --- ### Tim Walters *09 Nov 2008, 17:22 · in reply to Adam Thornton* > Adam Thornton wrote: > (this now has me imagining Quentin Tarantino Directs William Carlos > Williams' "This Is Just To Say") Not too far off: http://www.freshmanforlife.com/search/label/Blotchmen And on the science-fiction/music tip, this is the funniest thing I've seen in a while: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWsFWdqLmNM It helps if you know Magma's music, but I don't think it's necessary. ``` Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com ``` --- ### Craig Brewer *09 Nov 2008, 23:08 · in reply to Tim Walters* At the risk of being gruesome, does anyone know if Wolfe has made any arrangements for his papers, drafts, and what not to be housed anywhere after he passes? --- ### John Smith *10 Nov 2008, 17:18 · in reply to Son of Witz* >>>> On Nov 9, 2008, at 12:05 PM, Son of Witz wrote: >>>> >>>> I suppose it would have to be a crab canon. :) >>> that one sailed over my head. ? >> That happens easily when you're a pair of ragged claws scuttling >> across the floors of silent seas. > oh, has that Amphisbaena been mapped to the Cancer constellation? > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Matthew Groves *10 Nov 2008, 17:30 · in reply to Son of Witz* > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Son of Witz wrote: > On Nov 9, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Matthew Groves wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 1:11 AM, Son of Witz wrote: >> I want to hear a song called Amphisbaena that wrestles that concept. I >> keep coming back to that being one of the key symbols in the book. > I suppose it would have to be a crab canon. :) > > > that one sailed over my head. ? A crab canon is a palindromic contrapuntal composition in which a dux (leading voice) is placed against a comes (following voice) which is the retrograde of the dux. In other words, a melody is used in counterpoint with itself played backwards. You could similarly illustrate Ouroboros with a perpetual canon. And maybe Caduceus with a mirror canon. --- ### Son of Witz *10 Nov 2008, 20:17 · follows Matthew Groves* >> I suppose it would have to be a crab canon. :) >> >> >> that one sailed over my head. ? > A crab canon is a palindromic contrapuntal composition in which a dux > (leading voice) is placed against a comes (following voice) which is the > retrograde of the dux. In other words, a melody is used in counterpoint > with itself played backwards. You could similarly illustrate Ouroboros with > a perpetual canon. And maybe Caduceus with a mirror canon. Thanks for the explanation. --- ### Gwern Branwen *14 Nov 2008, 22:27 · in reply to Matthew Groves* -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Matthew Groves wrote: > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Son of Witz > wrote: >> On Nov 9, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Matthew Groves wrote: >> >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 1:11 AM, Son of Witz >> wrote: >>> I want to hear a song called Amphisbaena that wrestles that concept. I >>> keep coming back to that being one of the key symbols in the book. >> I suppose it would have to be a crab canon. :) >> >> that one sailed over my head. ? > A crab canon is a palindromic contrapuntal composition in which a dux > (leading voice) is placed against a comes (following voice) which is the > retrograde of the dux. In other words, a melody is used in counterpoint > with itself played backwards. You could similarly illustrate Ouroboros with > a perpetual canon. And maybe Caduceus with a mirror canon. For another take on the crab canon, I proffer an extract from one of my favorite books: http://www.evl.uic.edu/swami/crabcanon - -- gwern -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEAREKAAYFAkkd+2kACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oI2RQCbBkSTgY34tEnLuEd6d+lnwjMc hxAAn2bI0ZL50VhFocwfaqkfv+SCKcjC =LRRL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ---