# Where was Rian born? (AEG Spoilers) *The Urth list — 16 messages, 9 voices, 15 Nov 2008* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Dave Tallman *15 Nov 2008, 22:14* I now think that Norma Peiper was the wife who accompanied Reis to Woldercan (p. 301). There's no need to postulate a second wife, because the timing can be made to work with one: 1. There is no mention of a child in that picture (p. 301). Rian was probably conceived on Woldercan, or shortly before they arrived. 2. Their son Rian is sixteen (p. 276), 3. The marriage only lasted two years(p. 176) 4. Bill's appointment as ambassador to Woldercan only recently ended, during the term of the current President (p. 19). 5. He has been back at least a year (to see Rian's football games, p. 277), probably more. 6. He was appointed ambassador during Instrup's first term and continued during his second term (pp. 15-16). 7. There was at least one other intervening President before the one Chase talked to. He says "an earlier president" not "the previous president" (p. 18). 8. So Bill served at least 12 years, before being replaced by the new President's "own man" (p. 19). 9. It would also be difficult to get much medical help for a child with a defective heart valve (p. 277) in a place so remote that even tampons are hard to get (p. 298). 10. "Nobody could cure him" (p. 26) implies lots of doctors, so we can assume Rian was raised on Earth. 11. Norma must have taken Rian back to Earth and divorced Bill. 12. In the picture where he announces he will retire (p. 14), Reis seems to be alone. Sharon was anxious to keep Norma's identity secret ("You won't even try to find out. And if you do -- if he tells you, for example -- you won't brace them with it" p. 25). Why was this? There may be any number of reasons, but if Norma is actually a rich woman who doesn't need acting to make a living she may not want her secret exposed since it would make people take her acting less seriously. Sharon may also be privy to secrets because she is working for Reis, and doesn't want it to get back to him that she told Cassie anything. If so, Reis has almost supernatural foreknowledge, since Cassie had barely been recruited at time Sharon talks with her. I prefer the simpler "rich woman incognito" theory. The fact that Sharon asks such a clueless question to Cassie as whether there is a connection between Rosenquist and Reis (p. 237) suggests she is more in the dark than anyone who worked for him would be. --- ### James Wynn *17 Nov 2008, 01:49 · in reply to Dave Tallman* Here's my report from WindyCon 35: First of all, Nigel Price is in the hospital. He was taken by ambulance on Saturday morning when he could not get out of bed. He does not seem to be in imminent danger now (last I heard). But, the doctors were apparently not certain of the cause of his problem as of last night. They were to run additional tests this morning that hopefully will be more conclusive. Those that will, please keep him in your prayers. It is not clear whether he will even be able to fly home as planned on Monday. I arrived at the Westin in Lombard at around 8pm Friday. Michael Andre-Driussi, Nigel, and Gene's daughter, Teri, were chatting in the lobby. Nigel had been there all day. He had hung out with Gene, Rosemary, and Teri most of the afternoon. Gene had panel discussion on children in warfare around 4:30pm, but there was an awful screw-up about the room location (I won't point fingers except to say it wasn't Gene's fault), so he arrived quite late for it. Then the four of them went to supper. We sat their chatting about Wolfe, movies, books, Chicago, the convention, and other things until midnight. We also discussed Michael's and Nigel's panel on the future of warfare and it's presentation in science fiction. Nigel in particular was very excited about it. Michael, Nigel, and I agreed to meet in the lobby at 8am and go to breakfast. I was met Michael in lobby at 10 to 8. We called Nigel's room but he didn't answer. We decided he was on his way or showering so we chatted as we waited until 8. I called again at 8 sharp but this time the phone picked up and hung up. Uh oh. Nigel must have decided to sleep in. Not surprising with the 6 hour time difference with England. So we went on to breakfast. We spent about an hour and a half talking about books and politics. Walking back to the hotel just before 10, there was an ambulance out front. We tut-tutted in sympathy went on in. Still no Nigel. We presumed he was boning up for the panel. At 10 there was a scheduled book discussion on "Soldier of the Mist" with the chicago-sf.org book club. Michael was greeted as a celebrity, and it was additionally lucky for them that he was there, because he did a good job of reminding me to stick to the topic of SoTM and to avoid bringing up the later or other novels in the discussion. At 11, Michael had book signings. I trolled the con. Still no Nigel. The panel discussion was at noon. Wolfe was participating as well. Rosemary and Teri were there too. Still no Nigel. I went to the concierge and called his room and searched the whole con (perhaps there was another room mix-up like the one on Friday). I met Teri on the way back. She told me to go on back and she would try to find him. Here is where Teri proved that she had snap that was just out of reach of Michael and me. She realized that no one travels 1000 miles spending 1000s of $ to be on a panel and not show up. She went to Security and gave them Nigel's room number telling them she was concerned for him. Indeed, they told her, he had been taken to the hospital by ambulance that morning. My call had awakened him, but he couldn't reach the phone in time. Eventually, he managed to dial zero for the front desk. She came back and quietly told me what was going on and that she was going to go to the hospital to check on him. She asked me to call her in 10 minutes so she would have my phone number. After the panel discussion I let everyone know why Nigel couldn't make it. Only family members could get into the ER to see Nigel, so Teri told them she was his niece. She got apprised of what the doctors knew so far and called Nigel's wife. She helped negotiate the information to ensure his insurance would cover all his expenses. Nigel had rented a car so he could see some more of Chicago while he was there. So Teri arranged for Michael to drive it back when he went to the airport on Sunday. Essentially, she took Nigel completely under her wing and became his proxy-wife. After the panel Gene, Rosemary, and Michael went on to Harry Caray's for lunch. As they entered the restaurant (connected to the lobby), Michael motioned for me to join them. About 20 minutes later, Teri joined us as well. Lunch ended a little after 3pm. The rest of the day was spent chatting with Michael and Teri and wandering aimlessly and happily around the con. Teri went back in the evening to check on Nigel. And I spent the rest of the evening in the lobby watching the people in costume pass by and talking to Michael about movies. At 11pm, Michael and I agreed to meet for breakfast at 8am on Sunday which we did. Coming back to the lobby, we met Gene and Rosemary coming out of Harry Caray's. He admonished us for not joining them for breakfast. Of course, if we had realized that that was an option, we surely would have. I took some pictures with Gene, Rosemary, and Michael then. Unfortunately I had to leave at 10am to catch my shuttle for the airport. I probably did less "con" activities at WindyCon than at any convention I've ever been to, but I doubt I've every had so much fun. J --- ### brunians at brunians.org *17 Nov 2008, 02:37 · in reply to James Wynn* Oh my! Poor Nigel! I do hope he is OK, are you following up? . > Here's my report from WindyCon 35: > > First of all, Nigel Price is in the hospital. He was taken by ambulance on > Saturday morning when he could not get out of bed. He does not seem to be > in > imminent danger now (last I heard). But, the doctors were apparently not > certain of the cause of his problem as of last night. They were to run > additional tests this morning that hopefully will be more conclusive. > Those > that will, please keep him in your prayers. It is not clear whether he > will > even be able to fly home as planned on Monday. > > I arrived at the Westin in Lombard at around 8pm Friday. Michael > Andre-Driussi, Nigel, and Gene's daughter, Teri, were chatting in the > lobby. > Nigel had been there all day. He had hung out with Gene, Rosemary, and > Teri > most of the afternoon. Gene had panel discussion on children in warfare > around 4:30pm, but there was an awful screw-up about the room location (I > won't point fingers except to say it wasn't Gene's fault), so he arrived > quite late for it. Then the four of them went to supper. > > We sat their chatting about Wolfe, movies, books, Chicago, the convention, > and other things until midnight. We also discussed Michael's and Nigel's > panel on the future of warfare and it's presentation in science fiction. > Nigel in particular was very excited about it. Michael, Nigel, and I > agreed > to meet in the lobby at 8am and go to breakfast. > > I was met Michael in lobby at 10 to 8. We called Nigel's room but he > didn't > answer. We decided he was on his way or showering so we chatted as we > waited > until 8. I called again at 8 sharp but this time the phone picked up and > hung up. Uh oh. Nigel must have decided to sleep in. Not surprising with > the > 6 hour time difference with England. So we went on to breakfast. We spent > about an hour and a half talking about books and politics. Walking back to > the hotel just before 10, there was an ambulance out front. We tut-tutted > in > sympathy went on in. Still no Nigel. We presumed he was boning up for the > panel. At 10 there was a scheduled book discussion on "Soldier of the > Mist" > with the chicago-sf.org book club. Michael was greeted as a celebrity, and > it was additionally lucky for them that he was there, because he did a > good > job of reminding me to stick to the topic of SoTM and to avoid bringing up > the later or other novels in the discussion. > > At 11, Michael had book signings. I trolled the con. Still no Nigel. The > panel discussion was at noon. Wolfe was participating as well. Rosemary > and > Teri were there too. Still no Nigel. I went to the concierge and called > his > room and searched the whole con (perhaps there was another room mix-up > like > the one on Friday). I met Teri on the way back. She told me to go on back > and she would try to find him. Here is where Teri proved that she had snap > that was just out of reach of Michael and me. She realized that no one > travels 1000 miles spending 1000s of $ to be on a panel and not show up. > She > went to Security and gave them Nigel's room number telling them she was > concerned for him. Indeed, they told her, he had been taken to the > hospital > by ambulance that morning. My call had awakened him, but he couldn't reach > the phone in time. Eventually, he managed to dial zero for the front desk. > > She came back and quietly told me what was going on and that she was going > to go to the hospital to check on him. She asked me to call her in 10 > minutes so she would have my phone number. After the panel discussion I > let > everyone know why Nigel couldn't make it. > > Only family members could get into the ER to see Nigel, so Teri told them > she was his niece. She got apprised of what the doctors knew so far and > called Nigel's wife. She helped negotiate the information to ensure his > insurance would cover all his expenses. Nigel had rented a car so he could > see some more of Chicago while he was there. So Teri arranged for Michael > to > drive it back when he went to the airport on Sunday. Essentially, she took > Nigel completely under her wing and became his proxy-wife. > > After the panel Gene, Rosemary, and Michael went on to Harry Caray's for > lunch. As they entered the restaurant (connected to the lobby), Michael > motioned for me to join them. About 20 minutes later, Teri joined us as > well. > > Lunch ended a little after 3pm. The rest of the day was spent chatting > with > Michael and Teri and wandering aimlessly and happily around the con. Teri > went back in the evening to check on Nigel. And I spent the rest of the > evening in the lobby watching the people in costume pass by and talking to > Michael about movies. > > At 11pm, Michael and I agreed to meet for breakfast at 8am on Sunday which > we did. Coming back to the lobby, we met Gene and Rosemary coming out of > Harry Caray's. He admonished us for not joining them for breakfast. Of > course, if we had realized that that was an option, we surely would have. > I > took some pictures with Gene, Rosemary, and Michael then. Unfortunately I > had to leave at 10am to catch my shuttle for the airport. > > I probably did less "con" activities at WindyCon than at any convention > I've > ever been to, but I doubt I've every had so much fun. > > J > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Matthew Keeley *17 Nov 2008, 04:27 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* > On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 9:37 PM, wrote: > Oh my! Poor Nigel! > > I do hope he is OK, are you following up? Well, my prayers are certainly with him. Let's hope it's a one-time and fixable problem. Do keep us apprised. -Matt --- ### James Wynn *17 Nov 2008, 17:47 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* > Oh my! Poor Nigel! > I do hope he is OK, are you following up? I heard from Teri this morning. They still haven't arrived at a diagnosis. It seems Nigel won't get to go home *at least* until Wednesday. Meanwhile, the Wolfe clan has checked him out of his hotel room, boxed up his stuff, and his visiting him (Gene & Rosemary said they intended to plan to go see him yesterday). This seems to be developing like a Wolfe story. First Teri tells a lie to the hospital that she is Nigel's niece. Then the Wolfes begin caring for him like family. No doubt, before he flies off to his island in the East, we will discover that Nigel is the clone of Rosemary's phantom twin. J. --- ### Andy Robertson *17 Nov 2008, 18:34 · in reply to James Wynn* James Wynn writes: >> Oh my! Poor Nigel! >> I do hope he is OK, are you following up? > I heard from Teri this morning. They still haven't arrived at a diagnosis. Thank you for doing all this, James - hartshorn http://www.thenightland.co.uk 01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 --- ### brunians at brunians.org *17 Nov 2008, 19:03 · in reply to James Wynn* I didn't even know that Rosemary *had* a phanton twin. . >> Oh my! Poor Nigel! >> I do hope he is OK, are you following up? > I heard from Teri this morning. They still haven't arrived at a diagnosis. > > It seems Nigel won't get to go home *at least* until Wednesday. > > Meanwhile, the Wolfe clan has checked him out of his hotel room, boxed up > his stuff, and his visiting him (Gene & Rosemary said they intended to > plan > to go see him yesterday). > > This seems to be developing like a Wolfe story. First Teri tells a lie to > the hospital that she is Nigel's niece. Then the Wolfes begin caring for > him > like family. No doubt, before he flies off to his island in the East, we > will discover that Nigel is the clone of Rosemary's phantom twin. > > J. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Matthew Keeley *17 Nov 2008, 19:48 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 2:03 PM, wrote: > I didn't even know that Rosemary *had* a phanton twin. Well, it's only one theory. *Mine* involves time travel. Thanks for keeping us posted. -Matt --- ### brunians at brunians.org *17 Nov 2008, 20:10 · in reply to Matthew Keeley* Nigel and I had an exchange of letters before he left for WindyCon which makes this strange situation look even stranger, but I think I would need his permission before going into this any further. Are we talking back and forth time travel or sideways? . > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 2:03 PM, wrote: >> I didn't even know that Rosemary *had* a phanton twin. > Well, it's only one theory. *Mine* involves time travel. > > Thanks for keeping us posted. > > -Matt > _______________________________________________ --- ### Adam Thornton *17 Nov 2008, 21:08 · in reply to James Wynn* >> On Nov 17, 2008, at 12:47 PM, James Wynn wrote: >> Oh my! Poor Nigel! >> I do hope he is OK, are you following up? > I heard from Teri this morning. They still haven't arrived at a > diagnosis. > > It seems Nigel won't get to go home *at least* until Wednesday. > > Meanwhile, the Wolfe clan has checked him out of his hotel room, > boxed up his stuff, and his visiting him (Gene & Rosemary said they > intended to plan to go see him yesterday). > > This seems to be developing like a Wolfe story. First Teri tells a > lie to the hospital that she is Nigel's niece. Then the Wolfes begin > caring for him like family. No doubt, before he flies off to his > island in the East, we will discover that Nigel is the clone of > Rosemary's phantom twin. Someone will probably end up with his or her throat torn out. It's not a Wolfe story without at least one werewolf. Adam --- ### James Wynn *18 Nov 2008, 00:41 · in reply to Adam Thornton* > Someone will probably end up with his or her throat torn out. Maybe so. I do think I'm getting a scratchy throat! --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *18 Nov 2008, 00:49 · in reply to James Wynn* > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 4:41 PM, James Wynn wrote: > Maybe so. I do think I'm getting a scratchy throat! Ahhh... Con crud... ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant ----- http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer http://www.danehyoakes.com I once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett ``` --- ### Roy C. Lackey *12 Dec 2008, 05:59 · in reply to Dave Tallman* I recently got around to reading AEG, then went back and read all the posts about it I had skipped. With those posts in mind--particularly Dave Tallman's, because he has done most of the heavy lifting so far--I read the book again, very s l o w l y, with attention to details. > Back on 11-15-08 Dave Tallman wrote: > I now think that Norma Peiper was the wife who accompanied Reis to > Woldercan (p. 301). There's no need to postulate a second wife, because > the timing can be made to work with one: I see no good reason to suppose Norma was ever married to Reis, but the apparition of Vince on that island as some sort of manifistation of a volcano gives me enough pause that I can't just dismiss it. Reis said he had been married twice. (p.-275) > 1. There is no mention of a child in that picture (p. 301). Rian was > probably conceived on Woldercan, or shortly before they arrived. Rian must have been born on Earth years before Reis went to Woldercan. See below. > 2. Their son Rian is sixteen (p. 276), > 3. The marriage only lasted two years(p. 176) Well, Norma's marriage did. > 4. Bill's appointment as ambassador to Woldercan only recently ended, > during the term of the current President (p. 19). > 5. He has been back at least a year (to see Rian's football games, p. > 277), probably more. Right. Reis hired Gid for some job two years earlier (120), and the U.S. Navy had been looking for the gold for two years (273). Reis had probably been back for about three years. > 6. He was appointed ambassador during Instrup's first term and > continued during his second term (pp. 15-16). > 7. There was at least one other intervening President before the one > Chase talked to. He says "an earlier president" not "the previous > president" (p. 18). No, there was no intervening president, as determined by the order of ambassadors: 1st Ambassador, Bob Chase (296) 2nd Harold Klauser (18, 296) 3rd William Reis (277) 4th unnamed (222), who succeeded Reis and was replaced by 5th Gideon Chase (293) > 8. So Bill served at least 12 years, before being replaced by the new > President's "own man" (p. 19). Reis served just eight years. (95) > 9. It would also be difficult to get much medical help for a child > with a defective heart valve (p. 277) in a place so remote that > even tampons are hard to get (p. 298). > 10. "Nobody could cure him" (p. 26) implies lots of doctors, so we can > assume Rian was raised on Earth. > 11. Norma must have taken Rian back to Earth and divorced Bill. > 12. In the picture where he announces he will retire (p. 14), Reis > seems to be alone. Right, but he had a wife when he came to Woldercan, per that picture you mentioned on p.-301, but the wife wasn't in that picture either. Not conclusive. I think Reis likely was divorced from his first wife before he went to Woldercan, and she was left filthy rich. Rian's mother had to be rich to have hired Gid to fix the boy's heart. (277) She probably stayed on Earth to raise the sickly boy. The wife mentioned in the picture may have been his second wife. So, Rian would have been about five years old when Reis went to Woldercan. But, we are left with the question of just when Gid cured the kid. If Reis actually paid for it, that may have been the occasion, mentioned above, two years earlier when he hired Gid for an unspecified consultation. Reis said the boy was "very ill as a child." Is 14 too old to call him a child? I suppose not. Then there is a problem with Gid's age. Sharon said he looked to be in his mid-thirties. (25) Klauser said he had been a "small boy" when he last saw him. (297) 5 or 6 years old? But if you add up the elapsed ambassadorial terms and add another 7-9 years to that, Gid should be only in his mid-twenties. And he's a Ph.D. He seems to be older than the numbers allow. And I don't think Wolfe made a mistake here. I think something is going on with sequential time, as hinted at by the peculiar nature of ethermail between Earth and Woldercan. Maybe travel between them has a warping effect? -Roy --- ### Mo Holkar / UKG *12 Dec 2008, 11:22 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > At 05:59 12/12/2008, Roy wrote: > the apparition of Vince on that island as some sort of manifistation > of a volcano I took that to be the "real" volcano god, assuming Vince's form because that was how Cassie was accustomed to seeing the god in the show. (Alternatively, Vince's show costume was an extremely accurate portrayal of the god's natural appearance.) On p286 Cassie realizes "You're not really Vince, are you? You just look like him." Admittedly, we've had no real cause to believe up till then that there is a "real" volcano god; but given Cassie's experience with the shark god, there sems no reason to doubt it either. Of course, in both cases no-one else witnesses the apparition. best wishes, Mo Mo Holkar Undying King Games mo at ukg.co.uk http://www.ukg.co.uk --- ### Dave Tallman *12 Dec 2008, 13:15 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > Roy C. Lackey wrote: > I see no good reason to suppose Norma was ever married to Reis, but the > apparition of Vince on that island as some sort of manifistation of a > volcano gives me enough pause that I can't just dismiss it. Reis said he had > been married twice. (p.-275) > You are right: there have to be two wives, and the mother of Rian is probably not the one who went with Reis to Woldercan. Norma is still an excellent candidate for the first wife, the mother of Rian. It had to be someone Sharon knew that Cassie knew, since Sharon asked Cassie to promise not to "brace them with it" (p. 25). Sharon did a gossip show on TV, and she might easily have found out that actress Norma was the ex-wife of a rich, former ambassador. Norma might have threatened her to prevent her from revealing this. > No, there was no intervening president, as determined by the order of > ambassadors: > > 1st Ambassador, Bob Chase (296) > 2nd Harold Klauser (18, 296) > 3rd William Reis (277) > 4th unnamed (222), who succeeded Reis and was replaced by > 5th Gideon Chase (293) > There's no absolute correspondence between the appointments of ambassadors and changes of presidential administration. An ambassador might be left in by a new president, or changed during his term. We knew Reis served 8 years (p. 95, good catch), and that Ingstrup ran for a second term after appointing Reis (pp. 15-16). We don't know that Ingstrup won re-election, but it may be simpler to assume he did. > But, we are left with the question of just when Gid cured the kid. If Reis > actually paid for it, that may have been the occasion, mentioned above, two > years earlier when he hired Gid for an unspecified consultation. Reis said > the boy was "very ill as a child." Is 14 too old to call him a child? I > suppose not. > No, it seems the ex-wife consulted Gideon on her own first. Reis had never heard of Chase until then. The consultation by Reis was later, and might have been the oil-field deal (p. 26). Reis had all sorts of business interests. > Then there is a problem with Gid's age. Sharon said he looked to be in his > mid-thirties. (25) Klauser said he had been a "small boy" when he last saw > him. (297) 5 or 6 years old? But if you add up the elapsed ambassadorial > terms and add another 7-9 years to that, Gid should be only in his > mid-twenties. And he's a Ph.D. He seems to be older than the numbers allow. > And I don't think Wolfe made a mistake here. I think something is going on > with sequential time, as hinted at by the peculiar nature of ethermail > between Earth and Woldercan. Maybe travel between them has a warping effect? > Gid may develop faster as an alien half-breed (ala the "Dunwich Horror"). We also don't really know how long Klauser's term was. --- ### Dave Tallman *12 Dec 2008, 20:19 · in reply to Mo Holkar / UKG* > Mo Holkar wrote: > I took that to be the "real" volcano god, assuming Vince's form > because that was how Cassie was accustomed to seeing the god in the > show. (Alternatively, Vince's show costume was an extremely accurate > portrayal of the god's natural appearance.) On p286 Cassie realizes > "You're not really Vince, are you? You just look like him." > It could also be the spirit of Bill Reis, appearing as Vince Palma to avoid causing her too much grief. There are many connections between Reis and Palma; he seems almost like an alter-ego (but they are seen together on p. 68, so it's not an identity). Here's another image connection I just noticed: "The high king's wife was the high queen... Her head was on fire." (p. 226) "..his headdress... was now of leaping flame." (P. 285). ---