{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5226", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5226, "subject": "\"Myfather's mounted guard\"", "messages": 8, "voices": 6, "first": "2008-11-18T18:34:48+00:00", "last": "2008-11-19T16:17:13+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-11-18T18:34:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Myfather's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just read Borski's solar labyrinth article on Thecla.\nMy Father's Mounted Guard.\nHer Father is the Autarch.\nseems pretty viable to me, and a lot more interesting than the mundane answer.\n\nWhile I've got some serious qualms about the nature of Borski's investigations, they do make for some interesting ideas. Thecla and Masks of the Father stand out as very useful to unlocking the book.\n\nwhat are my qualms then?:\njust that most of the added details only add to the plowman's meaning and add very little to the soothsayers' or transcendental meanings. This book is like what Dorcas says about the floating cathedral (It is the Catheral of the Claw that jumps into the air when it's set afire, right?) She says \"It\nseems to me that what you call the third meaning is very clear. But the second\nmeaning is harder to find, and the first, which ought to be the easiest, is\nimpossible.\" So, I guess since the first meaning is so difficult, Borski should be commended for connecting the breadcrumb trails with some neon paint.\n\nHowever I can't help but feel that what Wolfe wanted us to take away was the third and second meanings, and he used the ambiguity of the first to lead us further than plot. I'm not sure where to credit it, but an esoteric teaching I've heard is \"there is no escape through the horizontal\" and I would argue that most of these readings leave us wandering in the labyrinth. I find the transcendental readings, the vertical dimension, lead us out of the labyrinth and into even MORE interesting territory than the labyrinth of incestuous time warped bloodlines and religio-political manipulation.\n\nUsing time warped incestuous bloodlines as an example, what is more important — that Severian might be his wife's grandchild? (Valeria as mother of Catherine theory) — that he was potentially many Severian's resurrected? (the empty coffins) — OR — that his life is a loop? I would argue that Wolfe is elusive on these details because what matters is that his life is a Loop, because it gets into the larger notion of Death and Resurrection and cyclical universes, the metaphor of the Amphisbaena. The mechanics of how his life is a loop are just details that get us there.\n\nI do find the puzzles fascinating. But as someone mentioned that in an interview, even Wolfe doesn't know who Severa is. I would say it's not nailed down because it's not very important to the meaning of the story." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370811181038w7038105bi7ba0f808f705a242@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-18T18:38:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Myfather's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm ... the Autarch supposedly has no children." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI just read Borski's solar labyrinth article on Thecla.\nMy Father's Mounted Guard.\nHer Father is the Autarch.\nseems pretty viable to me, and a lot more interesting than the mundane\nanswer.\n\nWhile I've got some serious qualms about the nature of Borski's\ninvestigations, they do make for some interesting ideas. Thecla and Masks of\nthe Father stand out as very useful to unlocking the book.\n\nwhat are my qualms then?:\njust that most of the added details only add to the plowman's meaning and\nadd very little to the soothsayers' or transcendental meanings. This book\nis like what Dorcas says about the floating cathedral (It is the Catheral of\nthe Claw that jumps into the air when it's set afire, right?) She says \"It\nseems to me that what you call the third meaning is very clear. But the\nsecond\nmeaning is harder to find, and the first, which ought to be the easiest, is\nimpossible.\" So, I guess since the first meaning is so difficult, Borski\nshould be commended for connecting the breadcrumb trails with some neon\npaint.\n\nHowever I can't help but feel that what Wolfe wanted us to take away was\nthe third and second meanings, and he used the ambiguity of the first to\nlead us further than plot. I'm not sure where to credit it, but an esoteric\nteaching I've heard is \"there is no escape through the horizontal\" and I\nwould argue that most of these readings leave us wandering in the labyrinth.\n I find the transcendental readings, the vertical dimension, lead us out of\nthe labyrinth and into even MORE interesting territory than the labyrinth of\nincestuous time warped bloodlines and religio-political manipulation.\n\nUsing time warped incestuous bloodlines as an example, what is more\nimportant — that Severian might be his wife's grandchild? (Valeria as mother\nof Catherine theory) — that he was potentially many Severian's resurrected?\n(the empty coffins) — OR — that his life is a loop? I would argue that\nWolfe is elusive on these details because what matters is that his life is a\nLoop, because it gets into the larger notion of Death and Resurrection and\ncyclical universes, the metaphor of the Amphisbaena. The mechanics of how\nhis life is a loop are just details that get us there.\n\nI do find the puzzles fascinating. But as someone mentioned that in an\ninterview, even Wolfe doesn't know who Severa is. I would say it's not\nnailed down because it's not very important to the meaning of the story.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-11-18T19:36:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Myfather's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370811181038w7038105bi7ba0f808f705a242@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:danldo at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummmm ... the Autarch supposedly has no children." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not my theory, it's Borski's, from Solar Labyrinth, and the text seems to support it. He's talking about before his unmanning. The text says she was born in the house absolute and destined to sit on the throne. The Autarch's personal cat headed servants recognize her through Severian, why would that be if she's just some noble. Can you find any text that supports that the Autarch did NOT have children.\n\nI'm not arguing FOR his conclusion, just that it is very compelling and I've not yet seen a contradiction. The date of the unmanning of Appian is probably crucial here. How much older is Thecla? How long back was Appian unmanned? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just read Borski's solar labyrinth article on Thecla.\nMy Father's Mounted Guard.\nHer Father is the Autarch." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-19T00:57:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Myfather's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If his name is really Appian. Again, there is no evidence either way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 2:36 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:danldo at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ummmm ... the Autarch supposedly has no children." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not my theory, it's Borski's, from Solar Labyrinth, and the text seems\nto support it. He's talking about before his unmanning. The text says she\nwas born in the house absolute and destined to sit on the throne. The\nAutarch's personal cat headed servants recognize her through Severian, why\nwould that be if she's just some noble. Can you find any text that supports\nthat the Autarch did NOT have children.\n\nI'm not arguing FOR his conclusion, just that it is very compelling and\nI've not yet seen a contradiction. The date of the unmanning of Appian is\nprobably crucial here. How much older is Thecla? How long back was Appian\nunmanned?\n\n\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I just read Borski's solar labyrinth article on Thecla.\nMy Father's Mounted Guard.\nHer Father is the Autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005201c94a0f$ce57df80$bbcd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-11-19T06:26:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Myfather's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz quoted and wrote:\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:danldo at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ummmm ... the Autarch supposedly has no children." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not my theory, it's Borski's, from Solar Labyrinth, and the text\nseems to support it. He's talking about before his unmanning. The text says\nshe was born in the house absolute and destined to sit on the throne. The\nAutarch's personal cat headed servants recognize her through Severian, why\nwould that be if she's just some noble. Can you find any text that supports\nthat the Autarch did NOT have children.\n\nI'm not arguing FOR his conclusion, just that it is very compelling and\nI've not yet seen a contradiction.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As for the issue of the Old Autarch being Thecla's father -- he cannot be\nher or Thea's biological father, as I've said before, and recently. It's\nthis simple: Thecla is an exultant; the Old Autarch is decidedly not. He is\na little guy, scarcely taller than Cyriaca. One must be *born* an exultant,\nof exultant stock. See the first appendix to CLAW.\n\nOne born of the mating of an exultant and common person is taller than the\naverage commoner, but notably shorter than an exultant. A person of such\nmixture is regarded as a bastard, such as the fat guy outside Agilus' cell." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The date of the unmanning of Appian is probably crucial here. How much\nolder is Thecla? How long back was Appian unmanned?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He was unmanned not too long before Severian was born, then opened the\nwhorehouse about the same year Sev was born. See chapter XXIV, CITADEL.\n\nThe best determination I can make of Thecla's age is that she is a little\nolder than Sev, but not a lot older. Maybe 23-25.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081119083102.73E6A8002E@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-11-19T08:31:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Myfather's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 18:34 18/11/2008, Son of Witz wrote:\nwhat are my qualms then?:\njust that most of the added details only add to the plowman's \nmeaning and add very little to the soothsayers' or transcendental \nmeanings. This book is like what Dorcas says about the floating \ncathedral (It is the Catheral of the Claw that jumps into the air \nwhen it's set afire, right?) She says \"It\nseems to me that what you call the third meaning is very clear. But the second\nmeaning is harder to find, and the first, which ought to be the easiest, is\nimpossible.\" So, I guess since the first meaning is so difficult, \nBorski should be commended for connecting the breadcrumb trails with \nsome neon paint.\n\nHowever I can't help but feel that what Wolfe wanted us to take away \nwas the third and second meanings, and he used the ambiguity of the \nfirst to lead us further than plot. I'm not sure where to credit \nit, but an esoteric teaching I've heard is \"there is no escape \nthrough the horizontal\" and I would argue that most of these \nreadings leave us wandering in the labyrinth. I find the \ntranscendental readings, the vertical dimension, lead us out of the \nlabyrinth and into even MORE interesting territory than the \nlabyrinth of incestuous time warped bloodlines and religio-political \nmanipulation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just to pick up on your larger point here, I feel the same way -- \nalthough Wolfe unhelpfully blurs the issue by including some plot \npuzzles that _are_ important to the higher meanings (eg Dorcas's \nidentity). So it's easy to get step-by-step drawn into deeper and \ndeeper puzzling over implied or possible layers of meaning concealed \nwithin arcana of plot, in the hope that a discovered correspondence \nmay shed a new light on something important.\n\nI guess a (playful) comparison might be made with Church history. \nSome theologians back-calculate the date of Creation and determine \nthe numbers of angels that can fit in various places, while others \nare only interested in the revealed Word of the Gospels. Wolfeanism \nis too young to have yet had a Reformation, but give it a few hundred years...\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4923FAC5.6030400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-11-19T11:38:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Myfather's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\n\nIt's not my theory, it's Borski's, from Solar Labyrinth, and the text seems to support it. He's talking about before his unmanning. The text says she was born in the house absolute and destined to sit on the throne.\n\n\n\nIn UotNS, it says that the old autarch was unmanned specifically so that \nno child would stand in Sev's way to the throne. But in this version \nThecla would already be standing in the way.\n\nI note that Thecla's destiny did come true, in an ironic sort of way. \nShe did sit on the throne -- in Severian." } ] }, { "message_id": "<28985C79-9A56-45FD-B05D-DBC614523FA8@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-11-19T16:17:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Myfather's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<4923FAC5.6030400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 19, 2008, at 3:38 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote:\n\nIt's not my theory, it's Borski's, from Solar Labyrinth, and the \ntext seems to support it. He's talking about before his unmanning. \nThe text says she was born in the house absolute and destined to sit \non the throne.\n\n\n\nIn UotNS, it says that the old autarch was unmanned specifically so \nthat no child would stand in Sev's way to the throne. But in this \nversion Thecla would already be standing in the way.\n\nI note that Thecla's destiny did come true, in an ironic sort of \nway. She did sit on the throne -- in Severian" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Borski argues that's why Thecla was ultimately given to the torturers. \nHe thinks Inire did it." } ] } ] }