{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5229", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5229, "subject": "AEG only semi-spoilish", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2008-11-20T00:03:36+00:00", "last": "2008-11-20T15:08:25+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1f7617370811191603l568768bfmb1c9496b85df3122@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-20T00:03:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG only semi-spoilish", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here goes Dan'l with his nutty theory again...\n\nMy ongoing theory is that one of Wolfe's basic themes/memes/working\nmethods is to embed non-Christian cosmologies into larger Christian\ncontexts. That is, in these novels Christianity is ultimately true but some\nother belief system functions locally as if it were true.\n\nThe most blatant example of this is \"Long Sun,\" which is explicitly a\nGnostic world (the Whorl) contained inside a larger universe in\nwhich Christianity is true (i.e., the Outsider is the Christian God).\nOnly slightly less straightforward are his embedding of Norse (TWK)\nand Greek (Latro I & II) pagan cosmologies into the Christian ur-context.\n\nI've argued this at length.\n\nSo I don't suppose anyone on this list will be terribly surprised\nwhen I suggest that, in AN EVIL GUEST, Wolfe has similarly\nembedded Lovecraft's cosmology into the Christian ur-context.\nThat Squiddie (Cthulhu) and R'lyeh and other Lovecraftiana are\nreal in the novel seems beyond dispute. The cultists practice\nLovecraftian nihilism, and it is \"locally true\" -- as long as they\nare under the influence of the GOOs, it may as well be true.\n\nThis needs fleshing out, but I'm putting it out as a starting point\nto be attacked and developed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Crossley", "address": "ishmael at drizzle.com" }, "date": "2008-11-20T00:17:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG only semi-spoilish", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370811191603l568768bfmb1c9496b85df3122@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/19/08 4:03 PM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nHere goes Dan'l with his nutty theory again...\n\nMy ongoing theory is that one of Wolfe's basic themes/memes/working\nmethods is to embed non-Christian cosmologies into larger Christian\ncontexts. That is, in these novels Christianity is ultimately true but some\nother belief system functions locally as if it were true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’m not going to be able to back this up in any way, but I whole-heartedly\nagree. In the worlds of Wolfe’s books, elaborate cosmologies appear to\nbelie Christian truth, but he always lets Jehovah peek through the cracks.\nI imagine that’s how Wolfe thinks it worked in the real world, too, with a\ndeepening pagan understanding of the world eventually giving way to the\nrevealed Christianity behind the scenes.\n\nJames " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081120100112.4675F48043@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-11-20T10:01:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG only semi-spoilish", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370811191603l568768bfmb1c9496b85df3122@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 00:03 20/11/2008, Dan'l wrote:\nSo I don't suppose anyone on this list will be terribly surprised\nwhen I suggest that, in AN EVIL GUEST, Wolfe has similarly\nembedded Lovecraft's cosmology into the Christian ur-context.\nThat Squiddie (Cthulhu) and R'lyeh and other Lovecraftiana are\nreal in the novel seems beyond dispute. The cultists practice\nLovecraftian nihilism, and it is \"locally true\" -- as long as they\nare under the influence of the GOOs, it may as well be true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm happy to buy that -- I don't think Wolfe would have wanted to \nhandle that material on any other basis -- but I'd like to see an \nexposition of the way the larger Christian picture might be seen to \ninform the events of AEG, because to me it's not all clear.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49255D38.90703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-11-20T12:51:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG only semi-spoilish", "in_reply_to": "<20081120100112.4675F48043@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar wrote:\nI'm happy to buy that -- I don't think Wolfe would have wanted to \nhandle that material on any other basis -- but I'd like to see an \nexposition of the way the larger Christian picture might be seen to \ninform the events of AEG, because to me it's not all clear.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is Christianity in Wolfe's future world. Cassie encounters it \nthrough Margaret (especially in her song \"Walk in the Reign\") and in her \nrole as Mariah Brownlea. Her star-power causes her roles to become real \nto her, so I believe she gets in touch with real spirituality through \nthese songs and roles. It's like the concept of \"act as if\" in 12-step \nprograms. She begins to get ideas like \"add nothing to God and you get \ngood.\"\n\nI believe this makes her stronger and able to face adversity in the end \nmuch better than she could have before. Her relationship with Reis has \nelements of allegory with Christ and the Church, though Reis is far from \nperfect as a Christ-figure (like Severian, his action to redeem his \nworld involves mass flooding and destruction).\n\nIn the end, Cassie seems redeemed from a shallow, materialistic life. \nHer hope that Wally will somehow come back to her is like that of \nChristians waiting for the return of Christ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0811200708h35751259v3fa75b0beb75462c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-20T15:08:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG only semi-spoilish", "in_reply_to": "<49255D38.90703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/20/08, Dave Tallman wrote:\nMo Holkar wrote:\nThere is Christianity in Wolfe's future world. Cassie encounters it through\nMargaret (especially in her song \"Walk in the Reign\") and in her role as\nMariah Brownlea. Her star-power causes her roles to become real to her, so I\nbelieve she gets in touch with real spirituality through these songs and\nroles. It's like the concept of \"act as if\" in 12-step programs. She begins\nto get ideas like \"add nothing to God and you get good.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That \"act as if\" stuff seems to be a huge part of all of Wolfe's\nbooks. Wolfe is always working with the idea that you are the thing\nyou do, that we freely choose our actions and that we're transformed\nby them.\n\nI've argued this before, but it's most explicit in the Long Sun when\nit's explained that a demon can't imitate a god--if it does, it will\nbe absorbed into the god. So we see Kypris, a woman's personality\nmasquerading as a love-goddess, becoming an instrument of the\nOutsider, the true God of Love, and we see the significance of Horn's\nimitations of Silk.\n\nI guess it's also the point of The Wizard Knight and Pirate Freedom.\nThe protagonists of each make a choice about who they want to be in\nthe new world they find themselves in, and both succeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }