{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5239", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5239, "subject": "fully divine and fully human", "messages": 13, "voices": 10, "first": "2008-11-26T01:03:22+00:00", "last": "2008-11-26T19:08:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<452379.64105.qm@web58208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-11-26T01:03:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The complexity of Wolfe's symbols are beyond simple categorization. The claw is both a divine relic and an ordinary thorn. Severian is both the conciliator and a dupe of aliens. Time turns our lies into truths.\n\nThe church has similar mysteries - three in one, the substance of christ being fully divine and fully mortal, and other paradoxes that can't be explained but can explain other things. \n\nThe most basic perusal of the text assures us that terms for God are translated as New Sun - the sun dial for example. The conflation of new son and new sun, as well as the symmetry of all the titles leads us to the obvious conclusion that the narrator is torturer, conciliator, lictor, autarch, and new sun.\n\nThis was obvious to me in the seventh grade when I read this as a tale of the parousia, but Severian is more than a revelatory Christ - the text tries very hard to establish credence as divine by the use of saints names, the miracles, contiguous use of water and healing, the triumph over death - but there are diabolical forces at work that mimic the divine. The coin of vodalus is a symbol of the sun, but it is false. Severian is both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find only in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be what he wants the people to believe he is.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<14762.67.142.130.18.1227662380.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-11-26T01:19:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "<452379.64105.qm@web58208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Severian is\nboth a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find only\nin Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be\nwhat he wants the people to believe he is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in\n\"Lord Of Light\".\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-11-26T02:41:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "<452379.64105.qm@web58208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Marc Aramini wrote:\nSeverian is both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is \nsomething that I can find only in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get \nthe job done by pretending to be what he wants the people to believe he \nis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, just like _The Music Man_ ;)\n\nI think there are two bits here, that maybe that is as good as it \ngets with fallen humans, and God moving in mysterious ways, subverting the \nplans of the bad guys.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0811251842q507dfdc4qfc2aee0ea54c7104@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-26T02:42:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave,\n\nI agree with you entirely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/25/08, David Duffy wrote:\nOn Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian is both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is\nsomething that I can find only in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get\nthe job done by pretending to be what he wants the people to believe he\nis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey, just like _The Music Man_ ;)\n\nI think there are two bits here, that maybe that is as good as it\ngets with fallen humans, and God moving in mysterious ways, subverting the\nplans of the bad guys.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-11-26T07:03:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "<452379.64105.qm@web58208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:03 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe complexity of Wolfe's symbols are beyond simple \ncategorization. The claw is both a divine relic and an ordinary \nthorn. Severian is both the conciliator and a dupe of aliens. Time \nturns our lies into truths.\n\nThe church has similar mysteries - three in one, the substance of \nchrist being fully divine and fully mortal, and other paradoxes that \ncan't be explained but can explain other things.\n\nThe most basic perusal of the text assures us that terms for God are \ntranslated as New Sun - the sun dial for example. The conflation of \nnew son and new sun, as well as the symmetry of all the titles leads \nus to the obvious conclusion that the narrator is torturer, \nconciliator, lictor, autarch, and new sun.\n\nThis was obvious to me in the seventh grade when I read this as a \ntale of the parousia, but Severian is more than a revelatory Christ \n- the text tries very hard to establish credence as divine by the \nuse of saints names, the miracles, contiguous use of water and \nhealing, the triumph over death - but there are diabolical forces at \nwork that mimic the divine. The coin of vodalus is a symbol of the \nsun, but it is false. Severian is both a fraud and a conciliator, \nand this is something that I can find only in Wolfe. A false Christ \ncan still get the job done by pretending to be what he wants the \npeople to believe he is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "you're surely right.\nthe diabolical forces that mimic the divine part is especially apt. \nand I suppose surely one could argue that the cosmology is bogus and \nhe is 'just' a dupe. I like the ambiguity.\nthis is the sense I meant with the satanic catholic church comment. \nI'd say the same about many yogis and such as well.\nI also found the false coin very profound. I took it somehow as about \nthe false oaths, oath breaking, and , how would you put it, improper \nallegiance.\n\nhaving just read it my second time, I suppose I'm just geeked on all \nthis and surprised how thorough and consistent it seems to be within \nthe seemingly convoluted structure. I didn't get it at all the first \ntime. Early in Urth, I sort of got it, but I agree with Jordon that it \nis sort of a spoiler to the puzzle. The first read through was a \nserious WTF?!?!? for me. the second was more exciting than any fiction \nI've read. Upon rereading, I was determined to pay close attention to \nthe clues, figuring that the 4 books should have a tight symbology if \nit was really suggesting all that Urth was giving away. I was not \nimposing this Christological viewpoint. this stuff all just started \nspringing out at me. surely somewhere in me my inner cathaholic was \nsuggesting it all.\n\nreally great to hash this stuff out with you all.\nthanks.\n~SonOfWitz\nwho is really just Mike, but I hate having my name all over the \ninternet.\nsometimes the pseudonym seems obnoxious though." } ] }, { "message_id": "<492D7755.9090409@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-11-26T16:20:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "<14762.67.142.130.18.1227662380.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n Severian is\nboth a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find only\nin Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be\nwhat he wants the people to believe he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in\n\"Lord Of Light\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake \nfaith healer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks \nin prayer, unplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0811260829y4b3d6254jbb4833d2eae3ff75@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-26T16:29:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "<492D7755.9090409@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also \"The King of Comedy,\" the DeNiro movie in which a deluded stalker\ntakes a hostage to live out his fantasy of becoming a stand-up\ncomedian. To the audience's surprise, he's actually pretty funny, and\ngets a book deal along with his time in jail.\n\nAnd of course, one of the classic readings of Don Quixote is that the\nDon really does become a man of singular courage and chivalry through\nhis madness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/26/08, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Severian is\nboth a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find\nonly\nin Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be\nwhat he wants the people to believe he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in\n\"Lord Of Light\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake faith\nhealer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks in prayer,\nunplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<496722.54321.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2008-11-26T16:58:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "<492D7755.9090409@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Meatloaf was OUTSTANDING in that movie....and it contains one of my favorite movie lines of all time when Steve Martins girlfriend is referred to as \"the Holy Grail of Road Pussy\".\n\nshould \"Road Pussy\" be capitalized???\nHappy T-Day!\n\nSkype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Wed, 11/26/08, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) fully divine and fully human\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 8:20 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n Severian\nis\nboth a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find\nonly\nin Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to\nbe\nwhat he wants the people to believe he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in\n\"Lord Of Light\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake \nfaith healer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks \nin prayer, unplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-11-26T17:07:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "<496722.54321.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "so do any of you actually read this as Severian being merely a dupe and that none of the transcendental themes have their source or resolution in God?\nand if so, why? Is it that the manipulations of the post-humans cannot some how have a higher mandate beyond them?\n\nOf course it's interesting to speculate on all sorts of subtexts here, I'm just wondering if any of you have settled on this sort of interpretation.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson [mailto:jwilson at io.com]\nSent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 08:20 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) fully divine and fully human\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Severian is\nboth a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find only\nin Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be\nwhat he wants the people to believe he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in\n\"Lord Of Light\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake \nfaith healer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks \nin prayer, unplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710811260912w1d8d9b5es347c35d5e2c35edf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-26T17:12:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think a clue here is in the Cock and the Angel story. That has always\nseemed a blatant metaphor for the Hierogrammates (angel), Hierodules (eagle)\nand the Cock (Humanity).\n\n\"The eagle looked at the angel when her heard what the cock said, and the\nangel looked at the eagle. 'The Pancreator is infinitely far from us,' the\nangel said. 'And thus infinitely far from me, though I fly so much higher\nthan you. I guess at his desires-no one can do otherwise.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nso do any of you actually read this as Severian being merely a dupe and\nthat none of the transcendental themes have their source or resolution in\nGod?\nand if so, why? Is it that the manipulations of the post-humans cannot some\nhow have a higher mandate beyond them?\n\nOf course it's interesting to speculate on all sorts of subtexts here, I'm\njust wondering if any of you have settled on this sort of interpretation.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson [mailto:jwilson at io.com]\nSent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 08:20 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) fully divine and fully human\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " Severian\nis\nboth a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find\nonly\nin Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be\nwhat he wants the people to believe he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in\n\"Lord Of Light\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake\nfaith healer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks\nin prayer, unplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10811261026q45d0069ek4d8c58e334b94204@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-26T18:26:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "<492D7755.9090409@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThere's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake faith\nhealer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks in prayer,\nunplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe's fellow Catholic writer Muriel Spark has a novel involving a\n\"fraudulent stigmatic\" who actually cures people (This is hardly a\nspoiler - we learn this in the first chapter).\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<148D687A-510B-483F-9911-883875AA0CE0@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-11-26T19:04:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "<14762.67.142.130.18.1227662380.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Nov 25, 2008, at 7:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n \nSeverian is\nboth a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can \nfind only\nin Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending \nto be\nwhat he wants the people to believe he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha \nin\n\"Lord Of Light\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael Moorcock: \"Behold the Man.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-11-26T19:08:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) fully divine and fully human", "in_reply_to": "<496722.54321.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 26, 2008, at 10:58 AM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nshould \"Road Pussy\" be capitalized???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indubitably.\n\nI may feel outgunned when discussing Wolfean hermeneutics, but I am \nquite confident on this particular matter.\n\nAdam" } ] } ] }