# fully divine and fully human *The Urth list — 13 messages, 10 voices, 26 Nov 2008* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Marc Aramini *26 Nov 2008, 01:03* The complexity of Wolfe's symbols are beyond simple categorization. The claw is both a divine relic and an ordinary thorn. Severian is both the conciliator and a dupe of aliens. Time turns our lies into truths. The church has similar mysteries - three in one, the substance of christ being fully divine and fully mortal, and other paradoxes that can't be explained but can explain other things. The most basic perusal of the text assures us that terms for God are translated as New Sun - the sun dial for example. The conflation of new son and new sun, as well as the symmetry of all the titles leads us to the obvious conclusion that the narrator is torturer, conciliator, lictor, autarch, and new sun. This was obvious to me in the seventh grade when I read this as a tale of the parousia, but Severian is more than a revelatory Christ - the text tries very hard to establish credence as divine by the use of saints names, the miracles, contiguous use of water and healing, the triumph over death - but there are diabolical forces at work that mimic the divine. The coin of vodalus is a symbol of the sun, but it is false. Severian is both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find only in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be what he wants the people to believe he is. --- ### brunians at brunians.org *26 Nov 2008, 01:19 · in reply to Marc Aramini* > Severian is > both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find only > in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be > what he wants the people to believe he is. Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in "Lord Of Light". . --- ### David Duffy *26 Nov 2008, 02:41 · in reply to Marc Aramini* > On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Marc Aramini wrote: > Severian is both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is > something that I can find only in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get > the job done by pretending to be what he wants the people to believe he > is. Hey, just like _The Music Man_ ;) I think there are two bits here, that maybe that is as good as it gets with fallen humans, and God moving in mysterious ways, subverting the plans of the bad guys. David Duffy. --- ### John Watkins *26 Nov 2008, 02:42 · in reply to David Duffy* Dave, I agree with you entirely. > On 11/25/08, David Duffy wrote: > On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Marc Aramini wrote: >> Severian is both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is >> something that I can find only in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get >> the job done by pretending to be what he wants the people to believe he >> is. > Hey, just like _The Music Man_ ;) > > I think there are two bits here, that maybe that is as good as it > gets with fallen humans, and God moving in mysterious ways, subverting the > plans of the bad guys. > > David Duffy. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Son of Witz *26 Nov 2008, 07:03 · in reply to Marc Aramini* > On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:03 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: > The complexity of Wolfe's symbols are beyond simple > categorization. The claw is both a divine relic and an ordinary > thorn. Severian is both the conciliator and a dupe of aliens. Time > turns our lies into truths. > > The church has similar mysteries - three in one, the substance of > christ being fully divine and fully mortal, and other paradoxes that > can't be explained but can explain other things. > > The most basic perusal of the text assures us that terms for God are > translated as New Sun - the sun dial for example. The conflation of > new son and new sun, as well as the symmetry of all the titles leads > us to the obvious conclusion that the narrator is torturer, > conciliator, lictor, autarch, and new sun. > > This was obvious to me in the seventh grade when I read this as a > tale of the parousia, but Severian is more than a revelatory Christ > - the text tries very hard to establish credence as divine by the > use of saints names, the miracles, contiguous use of water and > healing, the triumph over death - but there are diabolical forces at > work that mimic the divine. The coin of vodalus is a symbol of the > sun, but it is false. Severian is both a fraud and a conciliator, > and this is something that I can find only in Wolfe. A false Christ > can still get the job done by pretending to be what he wants the > people to believe he is. you're surely right. the diabolical forces that mimic the divine part is especially apt. and I suppose surely one could argue that the cosmology is bogus and he is 'just' a dupe. I like the ambiguity. this is the sense I meant with the satanic catholic church comment. I'd say the same about many yogis and such as well. I also found the false coin very profound. I took it somehow as about the false oaths, oath breaking, and , how would you put it, improper allegiance. having just read it my second time, I suppose I'm just geeked on all this and surprised how thorough and consistent it seems to be within the seemingly convoluted structure. I didn't get it at all the first time. Early in Urth, I sort of got it, but I agree with Jordon that it is sort of a spoiler to the puzzle. The first read through was a serious WTF?!?!? for me. the second was more exciting than any fiction I've read. Upon rereading, I was determined to pay close attention to the clues, figuring that the 4 books should have a tight symbology if it was really suggesting all that Urth was giving away. I was not imposing this Christological viewpoint. this stuff all just started springing out at me. surely somewhere in me my inner cathaholic was suggesting it all. really great to hash this stuff out with you all. thanks. ~SonOfWitz who is really just Mike, but I hate having my name all over the internet. sometimes the pseudonym seems obnoxious though. --- ### Jeff Wilson *26 Nov 2008, 16:20 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* >> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> Severian is >> both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find only >> in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be >> what he wants the people to believe he is. > Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in > "Lord Of Light". There's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake faith healer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks in prayer, unplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` --- ### John Watkins *26 Nov 2008, 16:29 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* Also "The King of Comedy," the DeNiro movie in which a deluded stalker takes a hostage to live out his fantasy of becoming a stand-up comedian. To the audience's surprise, he's actually pretty funny, and gets a book deal along with his time in jail. And of course, one of the classic readings of Don Quixote is that the Don really does become a man of singular courage and chivalry through his madness. > On 11/26/08, Jeff Wilson wrote: > brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>> Severian is >>> both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find >>> only >>> in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be >>> what he wants the people to believe he is. >> Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in >> "Lord Of Light". > There's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake faith > healer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks in prayer, > unplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur. > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com > < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Stuart Hamm *26 Nov 2008, 16:58 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* Meatloaf was OUTSTANDING in that movie....and it contains one of my favorite movie lines of all time when Steve Martins girlfriend is referred to as "the Holy Grail of Road Pussy". should "Road Pussy" be capitalized??? Happy T-Day! Skype? stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm ? ??? stuarthamm.net --- On Wed, 11/26/08, Jeff Wilson wrote: From: Jeff Wilson Subject: Re: (urth) fully divine and fully human To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 8:20 AM >> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> Severian >> is >> both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find >> only >> in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to >> be >> what he wants the people to believe he is. > Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in > "Lord Of Light". There's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake faith healer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks in prayer, unplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` --- ### Son of Witz *26 Nov 2008, 17:07 · follows Stuart Hamm* so do any of you actually read this as Severian being merely a dupe and that none of the transcendental themes have their source or resolution in God? and if so, why? Is it that the manipulations of the post-humans cannot some how have a higher mandate beyond them? Of course it's interesting to speculate on all sorts of subtexts here, I'm just wondering if any of you have settled on this sort of interpretation. ~witz > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Wilson [mailto:jwilson at io.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 08:20 AM > To: 'The Urth Mailing List' > Subject: Re: (urth) fully divine and fully human > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>> Severian is >>> both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find only >>> in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be >>> what he wants the people to believe he is. >> Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in >> "Lord Of Light". > There's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake > faith healer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks > in prayer, unplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur. > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com > < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jordon Flato *26 Nov 2008, 17:12 · in reply to Son of Witz* I think a clue here is in the Cock and the Angel story. That has always seemed a blatant metaphor for the Hierogrammates (angel), Hierodules (eagle) and the Cock (Humanity). "The eagle looked at the angel when her heard what the cock said, and the angel looked at the eagle. 'The Pancreator is infinitely far from us,' the angel said. 'And thus infinitely far from me, though I fly so much higher than you. I guess at his desires-no one can do otherwise." > On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Son of Witz wrote: > so do any of you actually read this as Severian being merely a dupe and > that none of the transcendental themes have their source or resolution in > God? > and if so, why? Is it that the manipulations of the post-humans cannot some > how have a higher mandate beyond them? > > Of course it's interesting to speculate on all sorts of subtexts here, I'm > just wondering if any of you have settled on this sort of interpretation. > > ~witz >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jeff Wilson [mailto:jwilson at io.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 08:20 AM >> To: 'The Urth Mailing List' >> Subject: Re: (urth) fully divine and fully human >> >> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> Severian >>>> is >>>> both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can find >>>> only >>>> in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending to be >>>> what he wants the people to believe he is. >>> Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha in >>> "Lord Of Light". >> There's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake >> faith healer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks >> in prayer, unplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur. >> >> -- >> Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com >> < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Matthew Keeley *26 Nov 2008, 18:26 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* > On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > There's also a 1992 Steve Martin movie _Leap of Faith_ where a fake faith > healer conman becomes so persuasive that when he leads the marks in prayer, > unplanned non-fake miracles begin to occur. > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com > < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > Wolfe's fellow Catholic writer Muriel Spark has a novel involving a "fraudulent stigmatic" who actually cures people (This is hardly a spoiler - we learn this in the first chapter). -Matt --- ### Adam Thornton *26 Nov 2008, 19:04 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* >> On Nov 25, 2008, at 7:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> >> Severian is >> both a fraud and a conciliator, and this is something that I can >> find only >> in Wolfe. A false Christ can still get the job done by pretending >> to be >> what he wants the people to believe he is. > Roger Zelazny did a similar thing, most excellently, with The Buddha > in > "Lord Of Light". Michael Moorcock: "Behold the Man." Adam --- ### Adam Thornton *26 Nov 2008, 19:08 · in reply to Stuart Hamm* > On Nov 26, 2008, at 10:58 AM, Stuart Hamm wrote: > should "Road Pussy" be capitalized??? Indubitably. I may feel outgunned when discussing Wolfean hermeneutics, but I am quite confident on this particular matter. Adam ---