{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5243", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5243, "subject": "giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "messages": 19, "voices": 12, "first": "2008-11-26T23:40:55+00:00", "last": "2008-11-29T18:45:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-11-26T23:40:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, Witz, I think modernism need not equal postmodernism. Postmodernism is usually out and out relativism of one brand or another. I often think of modernism as having a general predisposition akin to existentialism: i.e., the universe may be mere chaos, but the individual can still create stable meaning. For a postmodernist, even the individual is just a product of other random forces, not a true controlling subject." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, it's not the same. I agree Wolfe and Joyce are moderns. Bringing up postmodernism, for me, was about the endlessly relative erosion of truth and meaning, and such as you describe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But enough philosophy...I want to talk about giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fukin A bro!\nsucking the Autarch's brains out through a razor-straw.\nfucking yer grandma when she was a little hottie.\nhaving the biggest sword on the block\nRegenerative White Fountains (I know my generative white fountain is potent cuz I knocked my wife up each time we were unprotected)\nDaughters Of War (Busty R.Crumb Babes on Ice Age Beasts!! SPROING!!!, I'm putting that shit on a doom metal album cover, next chance I get.)\nBackwards time travelers with more masks than Mike Patton at a Mr. Bungle concert.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Son of Witz \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 4:59:36 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian / Christ / Logos / Apocatastasis" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don'y have the time or the expertise to argue it, but I think Wolfe is a\nbog-standard modernist. _BotNS_ is his _Ulysses_, filled up with things to\nkeep readers busy for the next hundred years. And like Joyce, he has\nsometimes had to let out a few hints for the dense -- you may recall that\n_Ulysses_ didn't originally have chapter titles.\n\nUnlike Blish, I can't remember any direct allusions to Joyce in Wolfe's\nwritings, though he channels everyone else ;).\n\nDavid Duffy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is playing a modern game the same as embracing the tenents of postmodernism?\nOne can utilize the insights of a field without really embracing it's (lack of) belief system. Is playing with pagan myths the same as being Pagan?\n\nRegarding Joyce, Yowza, was this knucklehead up a creek without a paddle when I tried to read Ulysses. someday maybe. \nthe closest I've got to enjoying Joyce is an excerpt of Finnegan's Wake, put to Quasi-Death Metal by Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, called The Helpless Corpse Enactment. The video they made for it, here:\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELyco68w5ks\nis supposedly a 4 minute reenactment of Finnegan's Wake\n\n(perhaps inspiration fodder for Wolfe-Inspired Musicians)\n\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9d6d9c7e0811261742k1fffcb1ep566dc847032e03ef@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jorge Rapalo", "address": "jrapalo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-27T01:42:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We need the Book of the New Sun Heavy Metal adaptation. Call Simon Bisley!\nOk, seriously, maybe Moebius could draw and Jodorowski script?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 5:40 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nBut enough philosophy...I want to talk about giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fukin A bro!\nsucking the Autarch's brains out through a razor-straw.\nfucking yer grandma when she was a little hottie.\nhaving the biggest sword on the block\nRegenerative White Fountains (I know my generative white fountain is potent cuz I knocked my wife up each time we were unprotected)\nDaughters Of War (Busty R.Crumb Babes on Ice Age Beasts!! SPROING!!!, I'm putting that shit on a doom metal album cover, next chance I get.)\nBackwards time travelers with more masks than Mike Patton at a Mr. Bungle concert.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1F210C46-4713-4986-9649-9142A77CC3DB@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-11-27T02:34:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "<9d6d9c7e0811261742k1fffcb1ep566dc847032e03ef@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "sounds about right.\nwhat a shame their Dune never got made.\nwhat a glorious mess that would have been.\ny'all read The Incal? killer stuff.\n~m" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 26, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Jorge Rapalo wrote:\nWe need the Book of the New Sun Heavy Metal adaptation. Call Simon \nBisley!\nOk, seriously, maybe Moebius could draw and Jodorowski script?\n\nOn Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 5:40 PM, Son of Witz ", "from": { "name": "Robert Thornton", "address": "oblate777 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-27T03:09:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "<1F210C46-4713-4986-9649-9142A77CC3DB@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 26, 2008, at 9:34 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nsounds about right.\nwhat a shame their Dune never got made.\nwhat a glorious mess that would have been.\ny'all read The Incal? killer stuff.\n~m" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The question \"can New Sun be adapted to another media\" boggles my mind.\n\nrob t." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 26, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Jorge Rapalo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We need the Book of the New Sun Heavy Metal adaptation. Call Simon \nBisley!\nOk, seriously, maybe Moebius could draw and Jodorowski script?\n\nOn Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 5:40 PM, Son of Witz ", "from": { "name": "Jorge Rapalo", "address": "jrapalo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-27T03:25:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:09 PM, Robert Thornton wrote:\nOn Nov 26, 2008, at 9:34 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "sounds about right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "what a shame their Dune never got made.\nwhat a glorious mess that would have been.\ny'all read The Incal? killer stuff.\n~m\nThe question \"can New Sun be adapted to another media\" boggles my mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Anything can be adapted. The question is more about how much would\nit (inevitably) lose in the process, or how acceptable would the de\nrigeur changes be without losing all that is worthwhile in both the\nessence and the substance (in the Aristotelian sense) of the work." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9d6d9c7e0811261926i77e2b304q6e56be7d8f4c7607@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jorge Rapalo", "address": "jrapalo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-27T03:26:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And well, Alan Moore would say that the very idea of changing the\nchosen venue of expression is somewhere between odious and ridiculous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:09 PM, Robert Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Nov 26, 2008, at 9:34 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "sounds about right.\nwhat a shame their Dune never got made.\nwhat a glorious mess that would have been.\ny'all read The Incal? killer stuff.\n~m" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question \"can New Sun be adapted to another media\" boggles my mind.\n\nrob t." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Nov 26, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Jorge Rapalo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We need the Book of the New Sun Heavy Metal adaptation. Call Simon\nBisley!\nOk, seriously, maybe Moebius could draw and Jodorowski script?\n\nOn Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 5:40 PM, Son of Witz \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9d6d9c7e0811261931h50381a08g631a4afcfcc51e7b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jorge Rapalo", "address": "jrapalo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-27T03:31:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "<1F210C46-4713-4986-9649-9142A77CC3DB@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nsounds about right.\nwhat a shame their Dune never got made." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Which does touch on the current discussions about the nature of\nMessiahnic roles and the disconnect between effectiveness and\nveracity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "what a glorious mess that would have been." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The Lynch work was a mess, though not that glorious. I liked the\nachieved atmosphere of baroque decadence, but felt that the core of\nthe original work was lost completely, not just that they simplified\ninto childish literalism the messiahnic role of the lead, but that the\nmissed that the core of the thematic threads was the mental and\nphysical improvement of man, by changing the Atreides avantage to a\nscifi-ish kind of weaponry instead of a superior system of mental and\nphysicial conditioning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "y'all read The Incal? killer stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Sadly, not in complete form." } ] }, { "message_id": "<118690.87447.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-11-28T15:59:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Interview Tidbit", "in_reply_to": "<9d6d9c7e0811261931h50381a08g631a4afcfcc51e7b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm reading through Wright's collection of interviews, and I stumbled on this:\n\n\"What do [I] dislike most about [my] own writing... That so often it doesn't work -- that I can say X, flatly and in so many words, and later have editors, reviewers, and readers say 'But you never told me X.' I point out that I did, at the top of page twenty-two, or whatever, and they say, 'Well, it doesn't come through.' Obviously it doesn't, and I don't know how to make it.\" (78, interview with Elliott Swanson)\n\nI don't get the sense that Wolfe is being coy here, but honestly worrying that at times he doesn't communicate what he wants to. And what strikes me about this little bit is that it suggests that so much of Wolfe's \"puzzle\" style of writing may not be intentional. How much of it is just how he communicates? The downside is that, as we all know and have seen on the list, it can send people looking for puzzles where there aren't any, which leads to some very creative readings of what's going on in a Wolfe story. But it also suggests that the image I think many of us have of Wolfe as a puppet master over the details of his own stories may not always be the case.\n\nI mean, as someone recently joked, he's mortal, so of course some things just don't work like he wants. But this comment was so close to reflecting on what people admire about his style that I thought it at least worth thinking about.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-11-28T18:06:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "<9d6d9c7e0811261931h50381a08g631a4afcfcc51e7b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "what a glorious mess that would have been." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The Lynch work was a mess, though not that glorious. I liked the\nachieved atmosphere of baroque decadence, but felt that the core of\nthe original work was lost completely, not just that they simplified\ninto childish literalism the messiahnic role of the lead, but that the\nmissed that the core of the thematic threads was the mental and\nphysical improvement of man, by changing the Atreides avantage to a\nscifi-ish kind of weaponry instead of a superior system of mental and\nphysicial conditioning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "that's exactly how I feel about it.\nespecially changing the mental/physical conditioning to a sound weapon.\nlamo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "y'all read The Incal? killer stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Sadly, not in complete form." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "while it's not up to snuff with Wolfe, it's a damn good read. some of the alchemical imagery is made manifest in frightfully obvious (and cool) ways.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2008-11-28T19:10:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "<9d6d9c7e0811261926i77e2b304q6e56be7d8f4c7607@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Nov 26, 2008, at 10:26 PM, Jorge Rapalo wrote:\nThe question \"can New Sun be adapted to another media\" boggles my \nmind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Keanu Reeves. Am I right, or what?\n\nBack to lurkdom,\n\nSteven Bowen\nhttp://bowenfinearts.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kerry Benton", "address": "k.benton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-28T20:53:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To this day \"wierding modules\" is a code word I use amongst friends \nwhen absurd and pointless changes are made in film adaptations.\n\nWhile on the topic (vaguely), oh how I wish there wasn't a remake of \nDay the Earth Stood Still happening.\n\nSigh.\n\n-k\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Nov 28, 2008, at 12:06 PM, \"Son of Witz\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Lynch work was a mess, though not that glorious. I liked the\nachieved atmosphere of baroque decadence, but felt that the core of\nthe original work was lost completely, not just that they simplified\ninto childish literalism the messiahnic role of the lead, but that \nthe\nmissed that the core of the thematic threads was the mental and\nphysical improvement of man, by changing the Atreides avantage to a\nscifi-ish kind of weaponry instead of a superior system of mental and\nphysicial conditioning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that's exactly how I feel about it.\nespecially changing the mental/physical conditioning to a sound \nweapon.\nlamo." } ] }, { "message_id": "<493075C4.9020607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-11-28T22:50:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Interview Tidbit", "in_reply_to": "<118690.87447.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Often Wolfe's writing reminds me that he's an engineer by training, and as a writer perhaps more comfortable when describing physical objects and relationships. I wonder if that's part of it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 07:59:10 -0800 (PST)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: (urth) Interview Tidbit\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <118690.87447.qm at web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\nI'm reading through Wright's collection of interviews, and I stumbled on this:\n\n\"What do [I] dislike most about [my] own writing... That so often it doesn't work -- that I can say X, flatly and in so many words, and later have editors, reviewers, and readers say 'But you never told me X.' I point out that I did, at the top of page twenty-two, or whatever, and they say, 'Well, it doesn't come through.' Obviously it doesn't, and I don't know how to make it.\" (78, interview with Elliott Swanson)\n\nI don't get the sense that Wolfe is being coy here, but honestly worrying that at times he doesn't communicate what he wants to. And what strikes me about this little bit is that it suggests that so much of Wolfe's \"puzzle\" style of writing may not be intentional. How much of it is just how he communicates? The downside is that, as we all know and have seen on the list, it can send people looking for puzzles where there aren't any, which leads to some very creative readings of what's going on in a Wolfe story. But it also suggests that the image I think many of us have of Wolfe as a puppet master over the details of his own stories may not always be the case.\n\nI mean, as someone recently joked, he's mortal, so of course some things just don't work like he wants. But this comment was so close to reflecting on what people admire about his style that I thought it at least worth thinking about.\n\n\n\n \n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002101c951af$8d806b60$37d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-11-28T23:17:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Interview Tidbit", "in_reply_to": "<118690.87447.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\nI'm reading through Wright's collection of interviews, and I stumbled on\nthis:\n\n\"What do [I] dislike most about [my] own writing... That so often it\ndoesn't work -- that I can say X, flatly and in so many words, and later\nhave editors, reviewers, and readers say 'But you never told me X.' I point\nout that I did, at the top of page twenty-two, or whatever, and they say,\n'Well, it doesn't come through.' Obviously it doesn't, and I don't know how\nto make it.\" (78, interview with Elliott Swanson)\n\nI don't get the sense that Wolfe is being coy here, but honestly worrying\nthat at times he doesn't communicate what he wants to. And what strikes me\nabout this little bit is that it suggests that so much of Wolfe's \"puzzle\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "style of writing may not be intentional. How much of it is just how he\ncommunicates?<<\n--------------------------------------\n\nOh, I think he does write that way deliberately. When there is a failure to\ncommunicate, part of the fault is his and part of it is the reader's. He\ndoesn't tell stories in a linear fashion. He omits a lot and fills in some\nof the skeletal details needed to understand him in a casual manner,\nscattering often innocent-looking lines in the text that are actually\ncritical plot points.\n\nSomewhere, he said something to the effect that, as a reader, he needed to\nbe told only once that a given character is left-handed. He expects his\nreaders to be equally attentive. When a certain tree falls in PEACE, or\nflowers are observed outside a kitchen door in FLF, for example, Wolfe is\ngiving the reader important pieces if information, but he does it on the\nsly. If the clues are too oblique for some readers, is that his fault?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The downside is that, as we all know and have seen on the list, it can\nsend people looking for puzzles where there aren't any, which leads to some\nvery creative readings of what's going on in a Wolfe story.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. It doesn't matter if Severian has a hairy chest or not. But the\npicture in Ouen's locket does. Separating the wheat from the chaff is the\nproblem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But it also suggests that the image I think many of us have of Wolfe as a\npuppet master over the details of his own stories may not always be the\ncase.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that Wolfe thinks he is pulling the right strings, or he wouldn't\nkeep writing that way.\n\nBut I do take issue with all the crap lately about ignoring the details and\njust looking at the Big Picture. Each piece of the mozaic is important,\nparticularly when the Big Picture has been broken and the pieces are\nscattered all over the landscape.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<519478.88485.qm@web58207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-11-29T05:39:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) interview tidbit", "in_reply_to": "<002101c951af$8d806b60$37d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Roy - Wolfe's subject matter leads us to posit all the possible things that can explain the unexplainable gaps, and often we latch onto the wrong explanations. \n\nFor example, Borski deriving the name Ida from Baldanders with his cryptonymic scheme seems a step too far for me, but the name Pelagia really does seem to combine pelagic with Agia, making it difficult to entirely dismiss these name relationships.\n\nWolfe's statements are also intentionally ambiguous. For example, the end of a quote I just pulled up and no one commented on, from p 220 of Epiphany of the Long Sun.\n\n\"Become the goddess of love in a century or less, said the Outsider standing not behind Silk as he had in the ball court, but before him - stanidng on the still water of the pool, tall and wise and kind, with a face that nearly came into focus. I would claim her in that case, long before the end. As I have so many others. As I am claiming Kypris even now because love always proceeds from me, real love, true love. First Romance.\n\nThe Outsider was the dancing man on a toy, and the water the polished toy-top on which he danced with Kypris, who was Hyacinth, and Mother, too.\"\n\nThese are the kinds of statements Wolfe could be talking about, because they are very easy to either over analyze or ignore completely. Hyacinth was possessed by Kypris, and this could mean either his mother is true love or that Kypris really is the mother of the special embryo pre-programmed to carry out the plan of Pas with the ability to influence others and even their stories, who knows how to fight with a sword without training. I prefer to read it as an affirmation that Kypris, the mistress of Typhon, is the mother of the special embryo planted on the whorl to bring about the completion of Pas' plan. \n\nI can point to the text and say, it says Kypris is his mother right there on the page ... but it isn't that easy in Wolfe, and there is way too much wiggle room because of possessions, ambiguities, time warping, identities shifting, and other things that make him fun to read but it is hard to definitively prove ... that's what he is saying, right there on the page.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B3753C100BD4246BD2BFC72F97BCCBF@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-29T06:51:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Interview Tidbit", "in_reply_to": "<002101c951af$8d806b60$37d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Separating the wheat from the chaff is the problem...\nBut I do take issue with all the crap lately about ignoring\nthe details and just looking at the Big Picture.\nEach piece of the mozaic is important, particularly\nwhen the Big Picture has been broken and the pieces\nare scattered all over the landscape." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Roy has put his finger on the biggest problem when reading Wolfe.\n\nAny \"big picture\" must conform to the details. But it is impossible to \nseparate the wheat details from the chaff details in a Wolfe novel *without* \napplying a big picture to it. You can't ask the details to vote for their \nown leader. And one must also remember that Wolfe typically grants himself \nan unreliable narrator: either crazy (There Are Doors), forgetful and crazy \n(Latro and, yes, Severian too), suffering from Lost Time (Able), wasn't \nthere for most of the events (Long Sun), or doubts the authenticity of his \nmemories (Weer and Severian). He has even offered the following explanation \nto readers questioning certain disjointedness between reported events and \nstatements by his narrators and characters: \"Did it never occur to you that \nthis person might have lied?\"\n\nAnd one person's \"big picture\" is another person's \"over-fecund \nimagination\". I've seen listers reject--with venom--\"big picture\" \nexplanations that conform to the details in every way merely because they \npersonally found them aesthetically unappealing. Then I've seen those same \nlisters happily wave alternate explanations that strike me as manufactured \nall but entirely of whole cloth. So, some self-awareness should be taken \njust prior to examining the \"big pictures\" presented by others...also a \n*willingness* to be convinced if possible.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<493119CC.6020608@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-11-29T10:30:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "<9d6d9c7e0811261926i77e2b304q6e56be7d8f4c7607@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jorge Rapalo wrote:\nAnd well, Alan Moore would say that the very idea of changing the\nchosen venue of expression is somewhere between odious and ridiculous." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes - it would be unthinkable for him to write a graphic novel about \ncharacters and situations originally appearing in prose novels." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49313E28.7040209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-11-29T13:05:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "<493119CC.6020608@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nYes - it would be unthinkable for him to write a graphic novel about \ncharacters and situations originally appearing in prose novels.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose you're referring to Moore's \"League of Extraordinary \nGentlemen,\" though I think he's doing something like he did in \n\"Watchmen\" -- a deconstruction of the world of heroic pulp fiction by \nputting all these characters into the same world and letting realistic \nconsequences flow from that. He's not trying to re-create those \ncharacters exactly as they were in the novels, but to do something new \nwith them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9d6d9c7e0811290536u972e184le87d6e2a414e8b04@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jorge Rapalo", "address": "jrapalo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-11-29T13:36:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) giants and magic gems and dudes wearing all black", "in_reply_to": "<49313E28.7040209@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 7:05 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes - it would be unthinkable for him to write a graphic novel about\ncharacters and situations originally appearing in prose novels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose you're referring to Moore's \"League of Extraordinary Gentlemen,\"\nthough I think he's doing something like he did in \"Watchmen\" -- a\ndeconstruction of the world of heroic pulp fiction by putting all these\ncharacters into the same world and letting realistic consequences flow from\nthat. He's not trying to re-create those characters exactly as they were in\nthe novels, but to do something new with them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " And that doing something new with them is probably the same rationale of\nthe movie studios adapting works, so the point still stands, I think." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-11-29T18:45:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Interview Tidbit", "in_reply_to": "<4B3753C100BD4246BD2BFC72F97BCCBF@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. It doesn't matter if Severian has a hairy chest or not. But the\npicture in Ouen's locket does. Separating the wheat from the chaff is the\nproblem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with you Roy,\nthough I'm COMPELLED to point out that my question about a 'hairy chest' was only relevant to the DRAWINGS I'm making of Severian, not any interpretation of the text. \n\nbut that was a funny jab. I'm sure a question like that seems REALLY strange to most folks here. But try drawing a character all solid black (no shadings) with a bare chest and arms. It looks very weird & hardly heroic. Given that he's not some hulking slob of a Frazetta executioner, and instead a strapping young lad, you might also find that you just drew something that looks like it belongs on the wall of one of those leather daddy shops in the Castro. \n\nfor what it's worth.\n~witz" } ] } ] }