{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5247", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5247, "subject": "House Absolute", "messages": 94, "voices": 21, "first": "2008-12-01T11:02:05+00:00", "last": "2008-12-05T16:22:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFCB@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-12-01T11:02:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recently got my brother hooked on Wolfe and he made a very interesting suggestion that I haven't found in the Archives.\nCould House Absolute be Mt Cheyenne the American underground Nuclear Base? \n\nhttp://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/cmc.htm\n\nNot sure if this has been discussed before, if so, apologies!\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7583.67.142.130.15.1228131733.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T11:42:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFCB@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nessus is the descendant of Buenos Aires, it has moved south (other\nthings, some more and some less plausible, are also assumed to have\nhappened). House Absolute is thus to be found somewhere in the present\nbounds of Buenos Aires. I have no idea how familiar Wolfe might be with\nmodern Buenos Aires.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I recently got my brother hooked on Wolfe and he made a very interesting\nsuggestion that I haven't found in the Archives.\nCould House Absolute be Mt Cheyenne the American underground Nuclear Base?\n\nhttp://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/cmc.htm\n\nNot sure if this has been discussed before, if so, apologies!\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie\n\n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended\nfor the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or\nthere are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The\nunauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is\nstrictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for\nviruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network.\nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect\nor consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this\nmessage by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank\nof Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail\nmessages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating\nor detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective\noperation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by\nthe Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered\noffice: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFD7@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-12-01T12:19:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<7583.67.142.130.15.1228131733.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have the text to hand so I cannot verify till I get home however I don't think the House Absolute is in \nNessus at all. Did Severian not travel North for some time before he reached Nessus? He was walking over\nHouse Absolute with Jonas when they were taken capture by the Guards." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org \nNessus is the descendant of Buenos Aires, it has moved south (other\nthings, some more and some less plausible, are also assumed to have\nhappened). House Absolute is thus to be found somewhere in the present\nbounds of Buenos Aires. I have no idea how familiar Wolfe might be with\nmodern Buenos Aires." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<185515.15768.qm@web180002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-12-01T13:27:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFCB@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Commonwealth seems to be in South America. And the story takes place so far in the future that today's underground bases would probably have long since disappeared.\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 12/1/08, O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) wrote:\nFrom: O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) \nSubject: (urth) House Absolute\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Monday, December 1, 2008, 6:02 AM\nI recently got my brother hooked on Wolfe and he made a very\ninteresting suggestion that I haven't found in the\nArchives.\nCould House Absolute be Mt Cheyenne the American\nunderground Nuclear Base? \n\nhttp://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/cmc.htm\n\nNot sure if this has been discussed before, if so,\napologies!\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie\n\n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential\nand is intended for the addressee only. If you have received\nthis message in error or there are any problems please\nnotify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use,\ndisclosure, copying or alteration of this message is\nstrictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been\nscanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland\nIreland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct,\nspecial, indirect or consequential damages arising from\nalteration of the contents of this message by a third party\nor as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of\nScotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record\ne-mail messages sent to and from this address for the\npurposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use\nof its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and\nis regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in\nIreland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland\nHouse, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T13:44:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFD7@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "House Absolute>I don't have the text to hand so I cannot verify till" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I get home however I don't think the House Absolute \nis in Nessus at all. Did Severian not travel North\nfor some time before he reached Nessus? He was walking\nover House Absolute with Jonas when they were taken\ncapture by the Guards. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim,\n\nIt is true that the House Absolute is not in Nessus. So all that is beside the point. But the Asciians control the region north of the equator where Severian tells us everything is backwards: the freezing caps there are in the North (can you imagine?) and the warmer weather is in the South.\n\nJ\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " To: urth at urth.net \n Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:19 AM\n Subject: (urth) House Absolute\nbrunians at brunians.org \nNessus is the descendant of Buenos Aires, it has moved south (other \nthings, some more and some less plausible, are also assumed to have \nhappened). House Absolute is thus to be found somewhere in the present \nbounds of Buenos Aires. I have no idea how familiar Wolfe might be with \nmodern Buenos Aires. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFDA@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-12-01T14:17:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nAll valid points and the assertion that the House Absolute is Mt Cheyenne is cheerfully withdrawn!\nAs was discussed here recently it is not one of those plot points that is vital to book.\nHowever, I will still cling to the possibility that it is an underground nuclear base; there is a section where \nSeverian notes strange hexadecimal shapes (someone on this list speculated that these were the biohazard symbol).\nThat would certainly fit with this theory.\n\nAs I say, I don't think it is of upmost importance anyway!\n\n\nHouse Absolute>I don't have the text to hand so I cannot verify till" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I get home however I don't think the House Absolute \nis in Nessus at all. Did Severian not travel North\nfor some time before he reached Nessus? He was walking\nover House Absolute with Jonas when they were taken\ncapture by the Guards. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim,\n\nIt is true that the House Absolute is not in Nessus. So all that is beside the point. But the Asciians control the region north of the equator where Severian tells us everything is backwards: the freezing caps there are in the North (can you imagine?) and the warmer weather is in the South.\n\nJ\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFDE@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-12-01T14:33:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFDA@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apologies to James Wynn,\n\nThe formatting on my last post went a little screwy so it looks like I am attributing my comments to you.\n\nAny of my muddles should be assigned to me and not James!\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812010653v74c4a407j92a37f7dd9b557f6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T14:53:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<185515.15768.qm@web180002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, another John/Jack!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/1/08, John Smith wrote:\nThe Commonwealth seems to be in South America. And the story takes place so far in the future that today's underground bases would probably have long since disappeared.\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n\n\n--- On Mon, 12/1/08, O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) \nSubject: (urth) House Absolute\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Monday, December 1, 2008, 6:02 AM\nI recently got my brother hooked on Wolfe and he made a very\ninteresting suggestion that I haven't found in the\nArchives.\nCould House Absolute be Mt Cheyenne the American\nunderground Nuclear Base?\n\nhttp://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/cmc.htm\n\nNot sure if this has been discussed before, if so,\napologies!\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie\n\n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential\nand is intended for the addressee only. If you have received\nthis message in error or there are any problems please\nnotify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use,\ndisclosure, copying or alteration of this message is\nstrictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been\nscanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland\nIreland's network.\nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct,\nspecial, indirect or consequential damages arising from\nalteration of the contents of this message by a third party\nor as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of\nScotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record\ne-mail messages sent to and from this address for the\npurposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use\nof its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and\nis regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in\nIreland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland\nHouse, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1343.67.142.130.14.1228145195.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T15:26:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFD7@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is North.\n\nNessus has been moving south.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't have the text to hand so I cannot verify till I get home however I\ndon't think the House Absolute is in\nNessus at all. Did Severian not travel North for some time before he\nreached Nessus? He was walking over\nHouse Absolute with Jonas when they were taken capture by the Guards." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org\nNessus is the descendant of Buenos Aires, it has moved south (other\nthings, some more and some less plausible, are also assumed to have\nhappened). House Absolute is thus to be found somewhere in the present\nbounds of Buenos Aires. I have no idea how familiar Wolfe might be with\nmodern Buenos Aires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie\n\n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended\nfor the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or\nthere are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The\nunauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is\nstrictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for\nviruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network.\nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect\nor consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this\nmessage by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank\nof Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail\nmessages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating\nor detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective\noperation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by\nthe Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered\noffice: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T15:30:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFCB@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA512" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 6:02 AM, O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) wrote:\nI recently got my brother hooked on Wolfe and he made a very interesting\nsuggestion that I haven't found in the Archives.\n\nCould House Absolute be Mt Cheyenne the American underground Nuclear Base?\n\nhttp://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/cmc.htm\n\nNot sure if this has been discussed before, if so, apologies!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Besides the issues with being on the wrong continent, I think another\nproblem is that the site is in the middle of some real mountains and a\nmountain range, and the House Absolute is, IIRC, on level or rolling\ngrounds. I don't think enough millions of years have passed for the\nmountains to have been leveled down that far; certainly there's the\nquestion how an underground base could have survived while the very\nmountains have not.\n\n- --\ngwern\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)\n\niEYEAREKAAYFAkk0Aw0ACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oLnjQCgmB3M9TrwGRjkTzO3jyl/eJGR\nRd8AniV2SkhL4g2vGsM9E1RpnzXnmAkf\n=3b0r\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFDF@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-12-01T15:35:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Trusty engineering in the US of A!\n\nGW giving props to his colleagues!\n\nBesides the issues with being on the wrong continent, I think another problem is that the site is in the middle of some real mountains and a mountain range, and the House Absolute is, IIRC, on level or rolling grounds. I don't think enough millions of years have passed for the mountains to have been leveled down that far; certainly there's the question how an underground base could have survived while the very mountains have not. - -- gwern \n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4934069E.1060504@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T15:45:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFDA@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) wrote:\nAll valid points and the assertion that the House Absolute is Mt \nCheyenne is cheerfully withdrawn!\nAs was discussed here recently it is not one of those plot points that \nis vital to book.\nHowever, I will still cling to the possibility that it is an underground \nnuclear base; there is a section where\nSeverian notes strange hexadecimal shapes (someone on this list \nspeculated that these were the biohazard symbol).\nThat would certainly fit with this theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "During the chilliads between our age of Myth and Severian's time, most \nextant buildings and underground structures will have served any number \nof purposes. Many underground locations appearing in the book show signs \nof defensive infrastructure (\"hypogeum apotropaic\" can be read as \n\"underground bunker\"), and underground bunkers have been useful since \nthe advent of rifled artillery and mandatory since the dawn of bomber \naircraft." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49340FB0.8030508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-01T16:24:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<4934069E.1060504@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My curiosity has been awakened---What is the argument for Nessus' being Buenos Aires? \n\nI agree that it's a candidate, and I understand that, if anything, Nessus would be \"a descendant\" of that city rather than in the same location. But if we are to take the present geography of South America as any kind of guide, it's impossible. The small river that flows through BA runs from NW to SE, so that the city would move NW, not south. No river flows due north anywhere in the region, and we know Nessus moved to get away from the squalid lower river area, just like London did. So Nessus did not move south---unless a new, wide, long river with a huge estuary sprung up out of nothing, in which case all bets are off. \n\nOnce you accept that the city moves north or northwest (regardless of what Severian says), Gyoll may as well be Rio de la Plata/Parana River. Only this river has a long estuary and a region where the land is flat enough for the river to meander as Gyoll does. The river descends from the north before turning southeast.\n\nSo if Nessus IS Buenos Aires, it first enlarged itself to include the estuary and half of Uruguay, then moved northwest. If this contradicts any other known facts, then we have to accept that contradiction. Wouldn't be the first time.\n\nIncidentally, there is a town/province of northern Uruguay, up the Parana, called Salto, which may be Saltus. \n\nAnd I need not point out that Borges wrote extensively of the rebels of the plains north of the rivers in Brazil and Paraguay, and Wolfe is a fan.\n\nAs for House Absolute---who knows. There is plenty of room there and time for various ancient installations and constructions. We do know, however, that its tunnels connect with Nessus, so it can't be too far away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:26:35 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <1343.67.142.130.14.1228145195.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nIt is North.\n\nNessus has been moving south.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\nI don't have the text to hand so I cannot verify till I get home however I\ndon't think the House Absolute is in\nNessus at all. Did Severian not travel North for some time before he\nreached Nessus? He was walking over\nHouse Absolute with Jonas when they were taken capture by the Guards." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "brunians at brunians.org\nNessus is the descendant of Buenos Aires, it has moved south (other\nthings, some more and some less plausible, are also assumed to have\nhappened). House Absolute is thus to be found somewhere in the present\nbounds of Buenos Aires. I have no idea how familiar Wolfe might be with\nmodern Buenos Aires." } ] }, { "message_id": "<383321.41271.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T16:31:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49340FB0.8030508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have my copies with me, but wasn't Father Inire responsible for building most of the House Absolute? Or was he just responsible for the \"additions\" to a structure that was already there?\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSent: Monday, December 1, 2008 10:24:16 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute\n\n\nMy curiosity has been awakened---What is the argument for Nessus' being Buenos Aires? \n\nI agree that it's a candidate, and I understand that, if anything, Nessus would be \"a descendant\" of that city rather than in the same location. But if we are to take the present geography of South America as any kind of guide, it's impossible. The small river that flows through BA runs from NW to SE, so that the city would move NW, not south. No river flows due north anywhere in the region, and we know Nessus moved to get away from the squalid lower river area, just like London did. So Nessus did not move south---unless a new, wide, long river with a huge estuary sprung up out of nothing, in which case all bets are off. \n\nOnce you accept that the city moves north or northwest (regardless of what Severian says), Gyoll may as well be Rio de la Plata/Parana River. Only this river has a long estuary and a region where the land is flat enough for the river to meander as Gyoll does. The river descends from the north before turning southeast.\n\nSo if Nessus IS Buenos Aires, it first enlarged itself to include the estuary and half of Uruguay, then moved northwest. If this contradicts any other known facts, then we have to accept that contradiction. Wouldn't be the first time.\n\nIncidentally, there is a town/province of northern Uruguay, up the Parana, called Salto, which may be Saltus. \n\nAnd I need not point out that Borges wrote extensively of the rebels of the plains north of the rivers in Brazil and Paraguay, and Wolfe is a fan.\n\nAs for House Absolute---who knows. There is plenty of room there and time for various ancient installations and constructions. We do know, however, that its tunnels connect with Nessus, so it can't be too far away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:26:35 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49341280.9030001@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T16:36:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49340FB0.8030508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nAs for House Absolute---who knows. There is plenty of room there and\ntime for various ancient installations and constructions. We do know,\nhowever, that its tunnels connect with Nessus, so it can't be too far\naway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some of those tunnels go back in time and/or have still-working \ncontrivances like anti-gravity or moving surfaces, so that \"can't be too \nfar away\" might be longer than you think." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFEA@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-12-01T16:43:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49341280.9030001@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi David,\n\nI thought that Nessus = Buenos Ares was accepted here but I could be wrong.\n\nIn the archives I can find the following discussions:\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2008-September/010056.html\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2007-December/008446.html\n\nAlthough I do remember further discussion on the older lists (I had a great few months in a new job where I had the opportunity to read through the entire archives).\n\nYour objection based on the flow of the river came up. At least one person (Raster) suggested that Severian may have spatial dyslexia and raised some interesting points in this regard:\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0001/0021.shtml\n\n\nJust on the point of the House Absolute connecting to Nessus (and I am in no way welded to the idea, just throwing some ideas around)\nat least 2 ways in which this could be the case and the two could be at a long remove:\ni) Some transport device like the one Typhon uses to ascend to the top of the mountain with his face carved on it could be used to move around. IIIRC there is a suggestion of anti-gravity device in operation here\nii) One of Father Inire's devices could be at work here. Some variation on mirrors for transport to allow rapid transport.\n\nIs it established how long it takes to walk between the House Absolute and Nessus? The tunnels are certainly extensive enough to allow children to be lost and possibly for timber wolves to live in the tunnels.\nThere is also the possibility that the tunnels joining these two are extremely long.\n\nAs I say, I don't think it is that important to the story, just idle speculation...\n\n\n__________________________________\n\nDavid Stockhoff dstockhoff at verizon.net \n\nMy curiosity has been awakened---What is the argument for Nessus' being Buenos Aires? \n\nI agree that it's a candidate, and I understand that, if anything, Nessus would be \"a descendant\" of that city rather than in the same location. But if we are to take the present geography of South America as any kind of guide, it's impossible. The small river that flows through BA runs from NW to SE, so that the city would move NW, not south. No river flows due north anywhere in the region, and we know Nessus moved to get away from the squalid lower river area, just like London did. So Nessus did not move south---unless a new, wide, long river with a huge estuary sprung up out of nothing, in which case all bets are off. \n\nOnce you accept that the city moves north or northwest (regardless of what Severian says), Gyoll may as well be Rio de la Plata/Parana River. Only this river has a long estuary and a region where the land is flat enough for the river to meander as Gyoll does. The river descends from the north before turning southeast.\n\nSo if Nessus IS Buenos Aires, it first enlarged itself to include the estuary and half of Uruguay, then moved northwest. If this contradicts any other known facts, then we have to accept that contradiction. Wouldn't be the first time.\n\nIncidentally, there is a town/province of northern Uruguay, up the Parana, called Salto, which may be Saltus. \n\nAnd I need not point out that Borges wrote extensively of the rebels of the plains north of the rivers in Brazil and Paraguay, and Wolfe is a fan.\n\nAs for House Absolute---who knows. There is plenty of room there and time for various ancient installations and constructions. We do know, however, that its tunnels connect with Nessus, so it can't be too far away.\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370812010914s45d78b69tbd86043d2c2ecf20@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T17:14:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFEA@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nessus as B.A. is *not* universally accepted. There is a\nsmall group, of whom I am one, who take it as given that\nthe continents have changed by the time of the NS. It\nappears that the core of the Urth has cooled; this is implies\na futureity of hundreds of millions, probably billions, of years\nfrom our time. And until the core *does* cool to solidity,\ntectonics will continue to move the continents around,\nsubmerge some and raise up others, as it has done since\nthe crust hardened.\n\nTherefore I suggest that to identify the contient of\nSeverian's journey as South America is not so much\nwrong as meaningless." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49341C9B.1080504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-01T17:19:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812010914s45d78b69tbd86043d2c2ecf20@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the links, Tim. It looks like the \"exact\" origin of Nessus is unsettled enough for my theory to fit without contradicting anyone else's South American theory. I agree that a nod to Borges is extremely likely---without necessarily dictating exact coordinates.\n\nAnd I think the posters' suspicions about Severian's descriptions of spatial relations is fair on several levels. He has occupied several different bodies---how could he comfortably describe Thecla's left hand, just as a random example, as being on his (Severian's) right, when he also had known it to be on his (Thecla's) left? \n\nAs an aside, I'm skeptical about any theory that \"extreme\" amounts of time have passed. There is simply no thematic or plot need for Urth to drastically change, nor for continents to change for the 20th century to be utterly forgotten and for cities to rise where now no cities are. Myth is as much about changes that occur on the same landscape as it is about what stays the same when the ground changes. Severian describes plastic as being still near the surface. Climate, sedimentation, and minor river movement are all fast changes vs any kind of mountain formation; so are language change/loss, cultural memory loss, and the replacement of political systems.\n\nThe pampas are still there, as are the northern jungles, the Andes with its lakes, and the southern mists. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:43:42 -0000\nFrom: \"O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI)\" \nSubject: (urth) House Absolute\nTo: \nMessage-ID:\n\t<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFEA at BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nHi David,\n\nI thought that Nessus = Buenos Ares was accepted here but I could be wrong.\n\nIn the archives I can find the following discussions:\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2008-September/010056.html\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2007-December/008446.html\n\nAlthough I do remember further discussion on the older lists (I had a great few months in a new job where I had the opportunity to read through the entire archives).\n\nYour objection based on the flow of the river came up. At least one person (Raster) suggested that Severian may have spatial dyslexia and raised some interesting points in this regard:\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0001/0021.shtml\n\n\nJust on the point of the House Absolute connecting to Nessus (and I am in no way welded to the idea, just throwing some ideas around)\nat least 2 ways in which this could be the case and the two could be at a long remove:\ni) Some transport device like the one Typhon uses to ascend to the top of the mountain with his face carved on it could be used to move around. IIIRC there is a suggestion of anti-gravity device in operation here\nii) One of Father Inire's devices could be at work here. Some variation on mirrors for transport to allow rapid transport.\n\nIs it established how long it takes to walk between the House Absolute and Nessus? The tunnels are certainly extensive enough to allow children to be lost and possibly for timber wolves to live in the tunnels.\nThere is also the possibility that the tunnels joining these two are extremely long.\n\nAs I say, I don't think it is that important to the story, just idle speculation...\n\n\n__________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<956276.45901.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T17:21:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812010914s45d78b69tbd86043d2c2ecf20@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although we might argue about how much authorial intention matters on a point that isn't necessarily stated explicitly in the text, Wolfe has said that he intended South America.\n\nFrom his interview with Larry McCaffery:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LM: What kind of research was involved in The Book of the New Sun?\n\nWolfe: The main research was on Byzantium and the Byzantine Empire, which was a \nstagnant political entity that had outlived its time in much the same way that \nthe Urth of the Commonwealth had. One of the things that bothered me about the \nreviews I got on The Book of the New Sun was how often they compared my world \nwith that of Medieval Europe. Insofar as I was trying to create any kind of \nparallels with an actual historical period here on Earth and obviously I wasn't \naiming at developing an exact analogy?I was thinking of Byzantium. Incidentally, \nI also got into trouble with some reviewers over my presentation of the Ascians, \nwho were my equivalent of the Turks. If you read the book carefully, it's clear \nthat the action is taking place in South America and that the invading Ascians \nare actually North Americans. What I didn't anticipate was that nine tenths of \nmy readers and reviewers would look at the word \"Ascian\" and say, \"Oh, these \nguys are Asians!\" This confusion got me accused of being an anti Asian \nracist which I'm not. Actually, the word \"ascian\" literally means \"people \nwithout shadows.\" It was a word used in the Classical world for people who lived \nnear the Equator, where the Sun is dead overhead at noon and thus produces no \nshadow. I felt it would be an interesting touch to show that the ordinary man in \nthe street in the Southern Hemisphere wasn't even conscious that their attackers \nare coming down from the Northern Hemisphere (they aren't even aware that there \nis another hemisphere).\n(http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/interviews/wolfe46interview.htm)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm find with this being geographically South America. The question remains, and which Wolfe's answer above implies, is how much the culture of South America is supposed to be reflected in the Commonwealth. There, I think Dan'l's point is correct, and the severe time span makes Urth alien to contemporary culture. (Apart, perhaps, from the fact that they still drink mate.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<119532.40515.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T17:28:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<956276.45901.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One other tiny point (and an apology for hitting Send too quickly before):\n\nJust because it's South America doesn't make Nessus Buenos Aires, of course. They layers upon layers of sedimented \"civilization\" that Severian sees in the cliff face and talks about with the \"miners,\" suggests to me that we're seeing a city that might have a vague organic connection to BA but which, given how much has been built, destroyed, and forgotten in this area, probably also has equally as many \"organic\" connections to countless other South American cities, both historical and \"Urth-historical.\" Even within the book's historical scope, Nessus seems to have grown on its own for so long that it's forgotten much of its own \"recent\" history. To want to then identify it as a city that existed in its own \"Age of Myth\" seems to not even really be an option. New York and New Amsterdam, for example, may be geographically identical, but so much has happened in 2-300 years it doesn't really make sense to \"identify\" New York as New Amsterdam.\n\n\n\n\n\n\nAlthough we might argue about how much authorial intention matters on a point that isn't necessarily stated explicitly in the text, Wolfe has said that he intended South America.\n\nFrom his interview with Larry McCaffery:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LM: What kind of research was involved in The Book of the New Sun?\n\nWolfe: The main research was on Byzantium and the Byzantine Empire, which was a \nstagnant political entity that had outlived its time in much the same way that \nthe Urth of the Commonwealth had. One of the things that bothered me about the \nreviews I got on The Book of the New Sun was how often they compared my world \nwith that of Medieval Europe. Insofar as I was trying to create any kind of \nparallels with an actual historical period here on Earth and obviously I wasn't \naiming at developing an exact analogy?I was thinking of Byzantium. Incidentally, \nI also got into trouble with some reviewers over my presentation of the Ascians, \nwho were my equivalent of the Turks. If you read the book carefully, it's clear \nthat the action is taking place in South America and that the invading Ascians \nare actually North Americans. What I didn't anticipate was that nine tenths of \nmy readers and reviewers would look at the word \"Ascian\" and say, \"Oh, these \nguys are Asians!\" This confusion got me accused of being an anti Asian \nracist which I'm not. Actually, the word \"ascian\" literally means \"people \nwithout shadows.\" It was a word used in the Classical world for people who lived \nnear the Equator, where the Sun is dead overhead at noon and thus produces no \nshadow. I felt it would be an interesting touch to show that the ordinary man in \nthe street in the Southern Hemisphere wasn't even conscious that their attackers \nare coming down from the Northern Hemisphere (they aren't even aware that there \nis another hemisphere).\n(http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/interviews/wolfe46interview.htm)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm find with this being geographically South America. The question remains, and which Wolfe's answer above implies, is how much the culture of South America is supposed to be reflected in the Commonwealth. There, I think Dan'l's point is correct, and the severe time span makes Urth alien to contemporary culture. (Apart, perhaps, from the fact that they still drink mate.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T18:41:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<119532.40515.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is North.\n\nNessus has been moving south." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, Nessus has been moving North, from it's southern origin at the sea.\n\nClaw 28:\n\"Dorcas paused, looking up into the trees. \"My father said that the city had been creeping northward along the river for all of history, having begun as an autochthon village where Gyoll joins the sea...\n\"\nand\nCitadel XVII\n\"Yes you came from Nessus, did you not? And that was a city \nbuilt about a river. But it was once a city by the sea,\"\n\nAll of the Dead and dying parts of the city are in the south, which makes sense if it's crept up the river. \n\nGyoll runs Southeast\nCitadel XXXII \n\"I had heard that the ruins of the city extended far downriver and asked when we would sight them.\"\n\nThe Citadel is near the Center of Nessus, but to the South. \n\nSword VI \n\"Anyway, in Nessus, a long way south of the city most people visit, so far down the great river in fact that most people think the city would have ended long before, there stands an ancient fortress.\n\nand from Jonas story:\nShadow 35\n\"In the old times, the lords of this world feared no one but their own people,and to defend themselves against them built a great fortress on a hilltop to the north of the city.\"\n\nso back in Jonas's time, the Citadel (Great Fortress) is North of the City Proper.\n\nSo, clearly Nessus has crept North.\n\n\nI was trying to draw a map of the areas, and I realized it does almost perfectly overlay with South America. (Obviously I'm not the first to notice) It's more or less Argentina that this takes place in. If you look at Buenos Aires, it's at the mouth of a river that opens to the sea. I forget the name, Rio Parana or something. So, if Nessus Started out at Buenos Aires, I figure it's probably as far as Rosario by the BoTNS, though that makes for a seriously huge city wall.\n\nRight in the middle of Argentina is the Patagonia Pampas, and the rugged Andes would be perfect for carving Kings, they're very tall and steep, unlike many mountain ranges that slope more gradually. And of course, to the South, you've got the Southern Isles that of Halvard's story, where it is cold and icy, like the bottom of Chile and the Falkland Islands.\n\nAnd further north, of course, you find the Jungle and the Jungle River, Ouroboros, which is obviously the Amazon River." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't have the text to hand so I cannot verify till I get home however I\ndon't think the House Absolute is in\nNessus at all. Did Severian not travel North for some time before he\nreached Nessus? He was walking over\nHouse Absolute with Jonas when they were taken capture by the Guards." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I foundt searchable text files. they come in handy.\n\nYes, The House Absolute is North of Nessus.\nWhile I think the Nuclear bunker idea is neat, it doesn't seem to jibe with the details of the H.A. which is extravagant and palatial. As well, Inire built the Second House to coincide with the First House completely. It doesn't seem like a Nuclear Bunker would be retrofitted to have that sort of subtle labyrinthian structure.\n\n~SonOfWitz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T19:01:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "regarding whether its meaningless to say it's South America is not really countered by plate tectonics. Sure, you might name the reshaped continent something else, but it's more or less the same thing. The edges and mountain ranges have probably changed.\n\nand as has been pointed out" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The pampas are still there, as are the northern jungles, the Andes with its lakes, and the southern mists." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "as well as the Mate drinking culture and the Amazon River.\n\nOf course, the amount of futurity is anyone's guess. I imagine at least 30,000 years but not much more. As for Urth's core cooling within that timespan, it's as plausible as the sun dying. Typhon's scientists told him it would take much longer to cool than it actually did.\n\nI originally saw this work as set in a future Ice Age, but, it would seem like its really on the CUSP of a future ice age, where it's still not seen much glaciation spreading from the poles. Some, but not quite enough to call it an ice age yet. I'd thought the Ice Age animals a good clue to that, but it would also seem that ice age animals are the most likely Earth Fauna to be resurrected (fitting) into Urth, because we have frozen dna of them in our time. They're trying to grow a Mammoth right now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nessus as B.A. is *not* universally accepted. There is a\nsmall group, of whom I am one, who take it as given that\nthe continents have changed by the time of the NS. It\nappears that the core of the Urth has cooled; this is implies\na futureity of hundreds of millions, probably billions, of years\nfrom our time. And until the core *does* cool to solidity,\ntectonics will continue to move the continents around,\nsubmerge some and raise up others, as it has done since\nthe crust hardened.\n\nTherefore I suggest that to identify the contient of\nSeverian's journey as South America is not so much\nwrong as meaningless.\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As an aside, I'm skeptical about any theory that \"extreme\" amounts of time have passed. There is simply no thematic or plot need for Urth to drastically change, nor for continents to change for the 20th century to be utterly forgotten and for cities to rise where now no cities are. Myth is as much about changes that occur on the same landscape as it is about what stays the same when the ground changes. Severian describes plastic as being still near the surface. Climate, sedimentation, and minor river movement are all fast changes vs any kind of mountain formation; so are language change/loss, cultural memory loss, and the replacement of political systems.\n\nThe pampas are still there, as are the northern jungles, the Andes with its lakes, and the southern mists. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081130-0, 11/30/2008\nTested on: 12/1/2008 12:19:24 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9288.67.142.130.46.1228159051.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T19:17:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49340FB0.8030508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My curiosity has been awakened---What is the argument for Nessus' being\nBuenos Aires?\n\nI agree that it's a candidate, and I understand that, if anything, Nessus\nwould be \"a descendant\" of that city rather than in the same location. But\nif we are to take the present geography of South America as any kind of\nguide, it's impossible. The small river that flows through BA runs from NW\nto SE," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Amazon has been rerouted. Or something like that.\n\nAnyway, I heard this from Wolfe personally.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9432.67.142.130.46.1228159396.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T19:23:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49341C9B.1080504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe stated to me, in so many words, that Nessus is Buenos Aires.\n\nHe could have been lying, I suppose.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for the links, Tim. It looks like the \"exact\" origin of Nessus is\nunsettled enough for my theory to fit without contradicting anyone else's\nSouth American theory. I agree that a nod to Borges is extremely\nlikely---without necessarily dictating exact coordinates.\n\nAnd I think the posters' suspicions about Severian's descriptions of\nspatial relations is fair on several levels. He has occupied several\ndifferent bodies---how could he comfortably describe Thecla's left hand,\njust as a random example, as being on his (Severian's) right, when he also\nhad known it to be on his (Thecla's) left?\n\nAs an aside, I'm skeptical about any theory that \"extreme\" amounts of time\nhave passed. There is simply no thematic or plot need for Urth to\ndrastically change, nor for continents to change for the 20th century to\nbe utterly forgotten and for cities to rise where now no cities are. Myth\nis as much about changes that occur on the same landscape as it is about\nwhat stays the same when the ground changes. Severian describes plastic as\nbeing still near the surface. Climate, sedimentation, and minor river\nmovement are all fast changes vs any kind of mountain formation; so are\nlanguage change/loss, cultural memory loss, and the replacement of\npolitical systems.\n\nThe pampas are still there, as are the northern jungles, the Andes with\nits lakes, and the southern mists.\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:43:42 -0000\nFrom: \"O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI)\" \nSubject: (urth) House Absolute\nTo: \nMessage-ID:\n\t<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFEA at BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nHi David,\n\nI thought that Nessus = Buenos Ares was accepted here but I could be\nwrong.\n\nIn the archives I can find the following discussions:\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2008-September/010056.html\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2007-December/008446.html\n\nAlthough I do remember further discussion on the older lists (I had a\ngreat few months in a new job where I had the opportunity to read through\nthe entire archives).\n\nYour objection based on the flow of the river came up. At least one\nperson (Raster) suggested that Severian may have spatial dyslexia and\nraised some interesting points in this regard:\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0001/0021.shtml\n\n\nJust on the point of the House Absolute connecting to Nessus (and I am in\nno way welded to the idea, just throwing some ideas around)\nat least 2 ways in which this could be the case and the two could be at a\nlong remove:\ni) Some transport device like the one Typhon uses to ascend to the top of\nthe mountain with his face carved on it could be used to move around.\nIIIRC there is a suggestion of anti-gravity device in operation here\nii) One of Father Inire's devices could be at work here. Some variation\non mirrors for transport to allow rapid transport.\n\nIs it established how long it takes to walk between the House Absolute and\nNessus? The tunnels are certainly extensive enough to allow children to\nbe lost and possibly for timber wolves to live in the tunnels.\nThere is also the possibility that the tunnels joining these two are\nextremely long.\n\nAs I say, I don't think it is that important to the story, just idle\nspeculation...\n\n\n__________________________________\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081130-0, 11/30/2008\nTested on: 12/1/2008 12:19:24 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<355139.39112.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T19:31:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<9432.67.142.130.46.1228159396.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While we all sit here and wonder about the practicalities and details of how Buenos Aires might have become Nessus, it seems that the best reason to think of the two cities as the same has less to do with plot than with one more allusive than literal reason: Borges.\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Monday, December 1, 2008 1:23:16 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute\n\nGene Wolfe stated to me, in so many words, that Nessus is Buenos Aires.\n\nHe could have been lying, I suppose.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for the links, Tim. It looks like the \"exact\" origin of Nessus is\nunsettled enough for my theory to fit without contradicting anyone else's\nSouth American theory. I agree that a nod to Borges is extremely\nlikely---without necessarily dictating exact coordinates.\n\nAnd I think the posters' suspicions about Severian's descriptions of\nspatial relations is fair on several levels. He has occupied several\ndifferent bodies---how could he comfortably describe Thecla's left hand,\njust as a random example, as being on his (Severian's) right, when he also\nhad known it to be on his (Thecla's) left?\n\nAs an aside, I'm skeptical about any theory that \"extreme\" amounts of time\nhave passed. There is simply no thematic or plot need for Urth to\ndrastically change, nor for continents to change for the 20th century to\nbe utterly forgotten and for cities to rise where now no cities are. Myth\nis as much about changes that occur on the same landscape as it is about\nwhat stays the same when the ground changes. Severian describes plastic as\nbeing still near the surface. Climate, sedimentation, and minor river\nmovement are all fast changes vs any kind of mountain formation; so are\nlanguage change/loss, cultural memory loss, and the replacement of\npolitical systems.\n\nThe pampas are still there, as are the northern jungles, the Andes with\nits lakes, and the southern mists.\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:43:42 -0000\nFrom: \"O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI)\" \nSubject: (urth) House Absolute\nTo: \nMessage-ID:\n <63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFEA at BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nHi David,\n\nI thought that Nessus = Buenos Ares was accepted here but I could be\nwrong.\n\nIn the archives I can find the following discussions:\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2008-September/010056.html\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2007-December/008446.html\n\nAlthough I do remember further discussion on the older lists (I had a\ngreat few months in a new job where I had the opportunity to read through\nthe entire archives).\n\nYour objection based on the flow of the river came up. At least one\nperson (Raster) suggested that Severian may have spatial dyslexia and\nraised some interesting points in this regard:\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0001/0021.shtml\n\n\nJust on the point of the House Absolute connecting to Nessus (and I am in\nno way welded to the idea, just throwing some ideas around)\nat least 2 ways in which this could be the case and the two could be at a\nlong remove:\ni) Some transport device like the one Typhon uses to ascend to the top of\nthe mountain with his face carved on it could be used to move around.\nIIIRC there is a suggestion of anti-gravity device in operation here\nii) One of Father Inire's devices could be at work here. Some variation\non mirrors for transport to allow rapid transport.\n\nIs it established how long it takes to walk between the House Absolute and\nNessus? The tunnels are certainly extensive enough to allow children to\nbe lost and possibly for timber wolves to live in the tunnels.\nThere is also the possibility that the tunnels joining these two are\nextremely long.\n\nAs I say, I don't think it is that important to the story, just idle\nspeculation...\n\n\n__________________________________\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081130-0, 11/30/2008\nTested on: 12/1/2008 12:19:24 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15720.67.142.130.46.1228159965.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T19:32:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is North.\n\nNessus has been moving south." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, Nessus has been moving North, from it's southern origin at the sea.\n\nClaw 28:\n\"Dorcas paused, looking up into the trees. \"My father said that the city\nhad been creeping northward along the river for all of history, having\nbegun as an autochthon village where Gyoll joins the sea...\n\"\nand\nCitadel XVII\n\"Yes you came from Nessus, did you not? And that was a city\nbuilt about a river. But it was once a city by the sea,\"\n\nAll of the Dead and dying parts of the city are in the south, which makes\nsense if it's crept up the river.\n\nGyoll runs Southeast\nCitadel XXXII\n\"I had heard that the ruins of the city extended far downriver and asked\nwhen we would sight them.\"\n\nThe Citadel is near the Center of Nessus, but to the South.\n\nSword VI\n\"Anyway, in Nessus, a long way south of the city most people visit, so far\ndown the great river in fact that most people think the city would have\nended long before, there stands an ancient fortress.\n\nand from Jonas story:\nShadow 35\n\"In the old times, the lords of this world feared no one but their own\npeople,and to defend themselves against them built a great fortress on a\nhilltop to the north of the city.\"\n\nso back in Jonas's time, the Citadel (Great Fortress) is North of the City\nProper.\n\nSo, clearly Nessus has crept North.\n\n\nI was trying to draw a map of the areas, and I realized it does almost\nperfectly overlay with South America. (Obviously I'm not the first to\nnotice) It's more or less Argentina that this takes place in. If you\nlook at Buenos Aires, it's at the mouth of a river that opens to the sea.\nI forget the name, Rio Parana or something. So, if Nessus Started out at\nBuenos Aires, I figure it's probably as far as Rosario by the BoTNS,\nthough that makes for a seriously huge city wall.\n\nRight in the middle of Argentina is the Patagonia Pampas, and the rugged\nAndes would be perfect for carving Kings, they're very tall and steep,\nunlike many mountain ranges that slope more gradually. And of course, to\nthe South, you've got the Southern Isles that of Halvard's story, where it\nis cold and icy, like the bottom of Chile and the Falkland Islands.\n\nAnd further north, of course, you find the Jungle and the Jungle River,\nOuroboros, which is obviously the Amazon River." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't have the text to hand so I cannot verify till I get home\nhowever I\ndon't think the House Absolute is in\nNessus at all. Did Severian not travel North for some time before he\nreached Nessus? He was walking over\nHouse Absolute with Jonas when they were taken capture by the Guards." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I foundt searchable text files. they come in handy.\n\nYes, The House Absolute is North of Nessus.\nWhile I think the Nuclear bunker idea is neat, it doesn't seem to jibe\nwith the details of the H.A. which is extravagant and palatial. As well,\nInire built the Second House to coincide with the First House completely.\nIt doesn't seem like a Nuclear Bunker would be retrofitted to have that\nsort of subtle labyrinthian structure.\n\n~SonOfWitz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T19:35:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<355139.39112.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no \"South American Theory\". Wolfe himself confirmed in an interview that the Commonwealth IS in South America.\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49344246.3010607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T20:00:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812010914s45d78b69tbd86043d2c2ecf20@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nNessus as B.A. is *not* universally accepted. There is a\nsmall group, of whom I am one, who take it as given that\nthe continents have changed by the time of the NS. It\nappears that the core of the Urth has cooled; this is implies\na futureity of hundreds of millions, probably billions, of years\nfrom our time. And until the core *does* cool to solidity,\ntectonics will continue to move the continents around,\nsubmerge some and raise up others, as it has done since\nthe crust hardened.\n\nTherefore I suggest that to identify the contient of\nSeverian's journey as South America is not so much\nwrong as meaningless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Stone Town would not have survived millions of years after the time \nof the Incas in recognizeable form. Plus, in the afterword of _Shadow_, \n\"G.W.\" the translator of Severian's ms flatly states that he has \nphotographed multiple buildings that remain standing in Severian's time, \nagain implying that the separation is on a scale of dozens of millenia \nat most." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0812011235i508edd58i2774cde4e2550aa8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T20:35:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49344246.3010607@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, this is the mistake of reading Wolfe as hard-sf. Wolfe's future\ndoesn't have to be consistent with scientific theories of geology or plate\ntectonics. When he wants to connect his world to images of the present or\npast, he does so with recognizable architecture; when he wants to show the\ngreat age of Urth, he shows us the effects of erosion and sedimentation and\nsubduction kneading the ruins our world into unrecognizability or oblivion.\nNessus is Buenos Aires. Nessus is Byzantium. Incan ruins are still\nstanding, but the technology of the fare future is found as if fossilized.\nThat's the logic of Urth. Wolfe's Urth is a rhizome of associations and\nallusions to thousands of years of history and literature. It's consistency\nlies in the coherent structure of that rhizome, not in scientific\nplausibility.\n\nTherefore, if the elapsed time between our present and Severians is a\npertinent detail, then the clues to it will be found among the nodes of that\nrhizome. The Lexicon Urthus 2nd ed. has some interesting things to say\nabout this under \"History of Urth.\" (BTW, can someone tell me what the\nabbreviations P.S. and S.R. mean in this book?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThe Stone Town would not have survived millions of years after the time of\nthe Incas in recognizeable form. Plus, in the afterword of _Shadow_, \"G.W.\"\nthe translator of Severian's ms flatly states that he has photographed\nmultiple buildings that remain standing in Severian's time, again implying\nthat the separation is on a scale of dozens of millenia at most." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49344D67.7050006@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T20:47:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0812011235i508edd58i2774cde4e2550aa8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nAgain, this is the mistake of reading Wolfe as hard-sf. Wolfe's future \ndoesn't have to be consistent with scientific theories of geology or \nplate tectonics. When he wants to connect his world to images of the \npresent or past, he does so with recognizable architecture; when he \nwants to show the great age of Urth, he shows us the effects of erosion \nand sedimentation and subduction kneading the ruins our world into \nunrecognizability or oblivion. Nessus is Buenos Aires. Nessus is \nByzantium. Incan ruins are still standing, but the technology of the \nfare future is found as if fossilized. That's the logic of Urth. \nWolfe's Urth is a rhizome of associations and allusions to thousands of \nyears of history and literature. It's consistency lies in the coherent \nstructure of that rhizome, not in scientific plausibility.\n\nTherefore, if the elapsed time between our present and Severians is a \npertinent detail, then the clues to it will be found among the nodes of \nthat rhizome. The Lexicon Urthus 2nd ed. has some interesting things to \nsay about this under \"History of Urth.\" (BTW, can someone tell me what \nthe abbreviations P.S. and S.R. mean in this book?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They relate to the reckoning of time in years, which you've just said is \na mistake, so I won't burden you with this spurious notation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812011247ue97d0eeh759161a938c2f947@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T20:47:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49344D67.7050006@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nTherefore, if the elapsed time between our present and Severians is a\npertinent detail, then the clues to it will be found among the nodes of that\nrhizome. The Lexicon Urthus 2nd ed. has some interesting things to say\nabout this under \"History of Urth.\" (BTW, can someone tell me what the\nabbreviations P.S. and S.R. mean in this book?)\n\nThe abbreviations seem to mean \"Pre-Severian\" and \"Severian Regnant,\" a\ndate scheme based on the year Severian became autarch." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T20:48:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812011247ue97d0eeh759161a938c2f947@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with you Matthew. IT's not meant to be hard-sf. (jeez, I'm a relative noob to the SF genre, do writers bother with that sort of thing) \n\nIn the Lexion, Andre-Driussi points out that the Red Sun is not hard sf, but is from the covers of pulp sf books that inspired Wolfe.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Matthew Groves [mailto:matthewalangroves at gmail.com]\nSent: Monday, December 1, 2008 12:35 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute\n\nAgain, this is the mistake of reading Wolfe as hard-sf. Wolfe's future\ndoesn't have to be consistent with scientific theories of geology or plate\ntectonics. When he wants to connect his world to images of the present or\npast, he does so with recognizable architecture; when he wants to show the\ngreat age of Urth, he shows us the effects of erosion and sedimentation and\nsubduction kneading the ruins our world into unrecognizability or oblivion.\nNessus is Buenos Aires. Nessus is Byzantium. Incan ruins are still\nstanding, but the technology of the fare future is found as if fossilized.\nThat's the logic of Urth. Wolfe's Urth is a rhizome of associations and\nallusions to thousands of years of history and literature. It's consistency\nlies in the coherent structure of that rhizome, not in scientific\nplausibility.\n\nTherefore, if the elapsed time between our present and Severians is a\npertinent detail, then the clues to it will be found among the nodes of that\nrhizome. The Lexicon Urthus 2nd ed. has some interesting things to say\nabout this under \"History of Urth.\" (BTW, can someone tell me what the\nabbreviations P.S. and S.R. mean in this book?)\n\nOn Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Stone Town would not have survived millions of years after the time of\nthe Incas in recognizeable form. Plus, in the afterword of _Shadow_, \"G.W.\"\nthe translator of Severian's ms flatly states that he has photographed\nmultiple buildings that remain standing in Severian's time, again implying\nthat the separation is on a scale of dozens of millenia at most." } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220812011252m86e7c89y25a2b789e419937b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T20:52:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The book very much fits within the \"Dying Earth\" subgenre (cf. Jack Vance)\nand is more closely related to planetary romance/science fantasy than what\nwe think of as \"science fiction.\"\n\nSo basically, magic is real, the laws of physics and science can be bent or\nbroken by the supernatural, and reality is malleable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI agree with you Matthew. IT's not meant to be hard-sf. (jeez, I'm a\nrelative noob to the SF genre, do writers bother with that sort of thing)\n\nIn the Lexion, Andre-Driussi points out that the Red Sun is not hard sf,\nbut is from the covers of pulp sf books that inspired Wolfe.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Matthew Groves [mailto:matthewalangroves at gmail.com]\nSent: Monday, December 1, 2008 12:35 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute\n\nAgain, this is the mistake of reading Wolfe as hard-sf. Wolfe's future\ndoesn't have to be consistent with scientific theories of geology or plate\ntectonics. When he wants to connect his world to images of the present or\npast, he does so with recognizable architecture; when he wants to show the\ngreat age of Urth, he shows us the effects of erosion and sedimentation\nand\nsubduction kneading the ruins our world into unrecognizability or\noblivion.\nNessus is Buenos Aires. Nessus is Byzantium. Incan ruins are still\nstanding, but the technology of the fare future is found as if fossilized.\nThat's the logic of Urth. Wolfe's Urth is a rhizome of associations and\nallusions to thousands of years of history and literature. It's\nconsistency\nlies in the coherent structure of that rhizome, not in scientific\nplausibility.\n\nTherefore, if the elapsed time between our present and Severians is a\npertinent detail, then the clues to it will be found among the nodes of\nthat\nrhizome. The Lexicon Urthus 2nd ed. has some interesting things to say\nabout this under \"History of Urth.\" (BTW, can someone tell me what the\nabbreviations P.S. and S.R. mean in this book?)\n\nOn Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The Stone Town would not have survived millions of years after the time\nof\nthe Incas in recognizeable form. Plus, in the afterword of _Shadow_,\n\"G.W.\"\nthe translator of Severian's ms flatly states that he has photographed\nmultiple buildings that remain standing in Severian's time, again\nimplying\nthat the separation is on a scale of dozens of millenia at most." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812011253o7777593ftfa7afadfe5b9a04e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T20:53:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't find the reference, and therefore am probably completely making up\nthis memory, but I thought I remember someone schooling Severian to the fact\nthat ancient peoples utilized the energies of the Urth's core, and used it\nup, therefore, those energies were exhausted, rather than stopping\nnaturally. This seems to relate to the notion of the Sun dying by design\nrather than naturally.\n\nDoes anyone else remember anything like this?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0812011318m6bac8f60ubc2504177bdc2bc9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T21:18:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49344D67.7050006@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why so snarky? I said no such thing. I don't object to counting years.\nIt's just that if one tries to calculate the age of Urth by the decay of\nruins or by geologic change, one is going to come up with contradictory\nestimates depending upon which piece of the text one bases the measurement\non. The \"History of Urth\" entry in the Lexicon makes a convincing case for\ncalculating the age of Urth based upon the precession of the equinox. This\n\"Great Year\" model is convincing to me, in part, because of how well it fits\nin with the other metaphors and images of cyclicism in the text. It puts\nthe Age of Myth (which we seem to be in now) at 20,500 P.S. (Pre-Severian --\nthanks Dave.)\n\nSo all I'm saying is that 1) scientific calculations of the age of Urth are\nbound to be contradictory, and 2) a calculation worth making should be\nthematically relevant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nThey relate to the reckoning of time in years, which you've just said is a\nmistake, so I won't burden you with this spurious notation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370812011357q40106a57vade3d97a4bfd94ea@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T21:57:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0812011235i508edd58i2774cde4e2550aa8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Matthew Groves ", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:06:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<272706220812011252m86e7c89y25a2b789e419937b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood wrote:\nThe book very much fits within the \"Dying Earth\" subgenre (cf. Jack \nVance) and is more closely related to planetary romance/science fantasy \nthan what we think of as \"science fiction.\"\n \nSo basically, magic is real, the laws of physics and science can be bent \nor broken by the supernatural, and reality is malleable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's still not a \"get out of internal consistency free\" card." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2742.67.142.130.33.1228173703.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:21:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812011357q40106a57vade3d97a4bfd94ea@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Societally it is Byzantine.\n\nPhysically it is Buenos Aires.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Matthew Groves\n", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:23:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0812011318m6bac8f60ubc2504177bdc2bc9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nWhy so snarky? I said no such thing. I don't object to counting \nyears. It's just that if one tries to calculate the age of Urth by the \ndecay of ruins or by geologic change, one is going to come up with \ncontradictory estimates depending upon which piece of the text one bases \nthe measurement on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can't have it both ways in a story that spans the timeline of ruin \nand geological change." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:25:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<493471DC.3060307@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The book very much fits within the \"Dying Earth\" subgenre (cf. Jack \nVance) and is more closely related to planetary romance/science fantasy \nthan what we think of as \"science fiction.\"\n \nSo basically, magic is real, the laws of physics and science can be bent \nor broken by the supernatural, and reality is malleable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's still not a \"get out of internal consistency free\" card." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yo, but we're talking about a book where the space ships have masts and sails.\nIt need not conform to science." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:27:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can't have it both ways in a story that spans the timeline of ruin \nand geological change." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't it we readers who are projecting \"geological change\" onto this.\n(except the part of Urth having cooled, which I don't remember the text source.)\nWolfe surely mentions changes in terms of Ruins, but I don't think he mentions anything about continental changes." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081201232838.GE25060@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:28:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 11:25:18PM +0000, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The book very much fits within the \"Dying Earth\" subgenre (cf. Jack \nVance) and is more closely related to planetary romance/science fantasy \nthan what we think of as \"science fiction.\"\n \nSo basically, magic is real, the laws of physics and science can be bent \nor broken by the supernatural, and reality is malleable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's still not a \"get out of internal consistency free\" card." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yo, but we're talking about a book where the space ships have masts and sails.\nIt need not conform to science." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean like this\nhttp://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/solar_sailing/\n\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493473D2.1070101@calmeilles.co.uk>", "from": { "name": "Matthew malthouse", "address": "calmeilles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:31:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nYo, but we're talking about a book where the space ships have masts and sails.\nIt need not conform to science." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But there should be internal consistency or a reason for the lack thereof.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:33:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<493473D2.1070101@calmeilles.co.uk>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yo, but we're talking about a book where the space ships have masts and sails.\nIt need not conform to science." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You mean like this\nhttp://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/solar_sailing/\n\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'DOH!!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:33:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yo, but we're talking about a book where the space ships have masts and sails.\nIt need not conform to science." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But there should be internal consistency or a reason for the lack thereof.\n\nMatthew" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"should\"\n\nare there rules to fiction now?\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6611.67.142.130.33.1228174722.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:38:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "People have been talking about solar sails for decades. I believe one or\ntwo have even been tested.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yo, but we're talking about a book where the space ships have masts and\nsails.\nIt need not conform to science." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You mean like this\nhttp://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/solar_sailing/\n\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'DOH!!!!\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370812011542h4588288dqce95454680ebbf07@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:42:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\n\"should\"\n\nare there rules to fiction now?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark Twain summarized them pretty well in his essay \"Literary Offenses of\nFenimore Cooper.\"\nhttp://ww3.telerama.com/~joseph/cooper/cooper.html" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493477D6.7040504@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:48:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nLane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The book very much fits within the \"Dying Earth\" subgenre (cf. Jack \nVance) and is more closely related to planetary romance/science fantasy \nthan what we think of as \"science fiction.\"\n \nSo basically, magic is real, the laws of physics and science can be bent \nor broken by the supernatural, and reality is malleable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's still not a \"get out of internal consistency free\" card." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yo, but we're talking about a book where the space ships have masts and sails.\nIt need not conform to science." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "but the author includes an explanation for the sailing spaceships - \nthere's no suggestion of why time passes so differently at the stone \ntown, Casdoe's cabin, and Saltus." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-01T23:59:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<493477D6.7040504@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yo, but we're talking about a book where the space ships have masts and sails.\nIt need not conform to science." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but the author includes an explanation for the sailing spaceships - \nthere's no suggestion of why time passes so differently at the stone \ntown, Casdoe's cabin, and Saltus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "maybe I'm being dense, but I'm not sure I follow.\nTime at the stone town is in a magical time. I think The Cumaean mentions that all times become one in the trance state she brings about.\nand the Stone Town seems to be one of those Resonant sorts of places that has managed to stay at the surface. It would also seem that it has not been built over, that its' mostly rocky wasteland in that territory.\n\nBut how does time pass differently at Casdoe's and Saltus?\nDo you mean the cliff and the mine?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49347EFF.1010001@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T00:19:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yo, but we're talking about a book where the space ships have masts and sails.\nIt need not conform to science." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But there should be internal consistency or a reason for the lack thereof.\n\nMatthew" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"should\"\n\nare there rules to fiction now?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aristotle may have been the first to write down certain best practices, \nbut the guidelines have been around a while." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4934809C.3040606@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T00:26:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nYo, but we're talking about a book where the space ships have masts and sails.\nIt need not conform to science." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but the author includes an explanation for the sailing spaceships - \nthere's no suggestion of why time passes so differently at the stone \ntown, Casdoe's cabin, and Saltus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "maybe I'm being dense, but I'm not sure I follow.\nTime at the stone town is in a magical time. I think The Cumaean mentions that all times become one in the trance state she brings about.\nand the Stone Town seems to be one of those Resonant sorts of places that has managed to stay at the surface. It would also seem that it has not been built over, that its' mostly rocky wasteland in that territory" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "remaining at the surface should mean the structures get even more \nweather and erosion than if they were safely buried in detrius or middens." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-02T00:27:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<4934809C.3040606@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "remaining at the surface should mean the structures get even more \nweather and erosion than if they were safely buried in detrius or middens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "some sorts o' magic mebee?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49348218.5060704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T00:32:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "remaining at the surface should mean the structures get even more \nweather and erosion than if they were safely buried in detrius or middens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "some sorts o' magic mebee?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might even be the Underpants Gnomes' winter quarters.\n\nThat rminds me, other than drinking Mate, lots of other current Age \ncustoms seem to have endured into Sev's era, including telling ghost \nstories at Hallowmass Eve." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<326324.9783.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T01:54:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hard Science Fantasy?", "in_reply_to": "<493473D2.1070101@calmeilles.co.uk>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what counts as internal consistency in a world where, on the one hand, what initially seems like a medieval castle turns out to be an abandoned rocket ship (i.e., science trumps fantasy) but where, at the same time, a dude ends up being able to inconsistently resurrect both himself (?) and others (i.e., magic)? Isn't part of the point of New Sun the not knowing whether science or magic is in control? Wolfe specifically calls his chosen genre here \"science fantasy\" so that he didn't have to hold to \"hard science\" or outright anything goes magic. (I wish I could easily locate the interview where he says this.) He also has written stories he's specifically labeled \"hard sf\" and others that he's specifically called fantasy.\n\nMy real point here is that part of what initially attracted me to New Sun was the realization that the fantasy bits turned out to be \"sf\" at times and that the \"science fiction\" tropes (the alien Hieros, etc.) ended up having a magical, or at least metaphysical, edge.\n\n(So all the real space sails talk is really cool. But is someone also going to show me a real world technological equivalent of every wonder under Urth and its sky? Or, a more pointed question is whether even the assumption that one could do this misunderstands the kind of imaginative world Wolfe created here.)\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Matthew malthouse \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Monday, December 1, 2008 5:31:30 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nYo, but we're talking about a book where the space ships have masts and sails.\nIt need not conform to science." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But there should be internal consistency or a reason for the lack thereof.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T02:03:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hard Science Fantasy?", "in_reply_to": "<326324.9783.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Science fantasy was a genre long before Wolfe wrote \"The Book of the \nNew Sun.\"\n\nA part of it is not knowing (following Clarke's famous dictum). \nThat's the point of Jack Vance's \"Dying Earth\" books (to which the \nBOTNS is both a pastiche and a homage): in the far future world, \nwizards are those who command powers beyond normal ken, be they \nsupernatural or technological. The point is that the storyteller (in \nthis case, Severian) doesn't know, and the readers aren't privileged \nwith that information either. Bear in mind that any \"internal \nconsistency\" of the story is only internally consistent if Severian \nrelates it to us consistently. We already know he claims to have a \nflawless memory, but the lousy sack of @#!!#$#$ is a liar at worst and \nsimply not introspective enough to know when he's being deceived or \ndeceiving himself.\n\nAlso, Wolfe is playing a kind of joke on us (that's what the \nafterwords are, where he \"explains\" a lot of the things we find \nperplexing). Wolfe is telling us that he came into possession of \nSeverian's manuscript(s), as a collector of things that have fallen \nbackwards through time, and is translating them into English. Because \nthere is some conceptual gap and drift between our modern-day English \n(and the tropes and categories by which we understand things) and the \ntropes and categories to which Severian would frame things, we end up \nwith things that somehow sort of resemble familiar concepts (solar \nsails) but not quite because we're seeing them not as Severian saw \nthem (in actuality), but as Severian recalled them, translated them \ninto words, and those words were then translated for a world so far in \nthe past that certain words and concepts didn't even exist for what \nSeverian was describing.\n\nThe end result is something chimerical: at times, it appears familiar \n(oh, the Hieros are aliens come back to shepherd humanity among the \nstars!) but then is not (they may be beings from a higher universe, \nlike angels!) but then is not again (they're not really angels but \n\"filthy Hiero-wasp creatures that may or may not be somehow the \ndescendants of the original starfaring humans).\n\nThe point is that we only know as much as Severian knows and is \ntruthfully relating, but we are not in a privileged position to know \nwhere he is lying/being deceived and where he's not. So we must take \neverything as it given and subject it to endless critique in some \nhopes of arriving at a hermeneutic understanding of just what in the \nholy hell is going on.\n\n*breathe*\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 1, 2008, at 7:54 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nSo what counts as internal consistency in a world where, on the one \nhand, what initially seems like a medieval castle turns out to be an \nabandoned rocket ship (i.e., science trumps fantasy) but where, at \nthe same time, a dude ends up being able to inconsistently resurrect \nboth himself (?) and others (i.e., magic)? Isn't part of the point \nof New Sun the not knowing whether science or magic is in control? \nWolfe specifically calls his chosen genre here \"science fantasy\" so \nthat he didn't have to hold to \"hard science\" or outright anything \ngoes magic. (I wish I could easily locate the interview where he \nsays this.) He also has written stories he's specifically labeled \n\"hard sf\" and others that he's specifically called fantasy.\n\nMy real point here is that part of what initially attracted me to \nNew Sun was the realization that the fantasy bits turned out to be \n\"sf\" at times and that the \"science fiction\" tropes (the alien \nHieros, etc.) ended up having a magical, or at least metaphysical, \nedge.\n\n(So all the real space sails talk is really cool. But is someone \nalso going to show me a real world technological equivalent of every \nwonder under Urth and its sky? Or, a more pointed question is \nwhether even the assumption that one could do this misunderstands \nthe kind of imaginative world Wolfe created here.)\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Matthew malthouse " } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFF2@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-12-02T09:38:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49348218.5060704@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Before I comment on the email below just a note on Wolfe and \"hard\" sci-fi.\nWhile Wolfe doesn't go out of his way to burden every device with a hard science grounding, he is an engineer and does take physics into account.\nI, for one, would doubt that there is little in his books that is physically impossible, but lots that employs theoretical principles that haven't been realised physically yet.\nFor instance, when Typhon and Severian are in the floater Typhon indicates that it is powered by an anti-gravity device. Why would Wolfe go to the trouble of including this detail \nwhen he is going to plead Asmiov's law and just say \"magic\" for other instances? (If this was the Star Wars universe the answer of course would be \"the force\").\n\nSome of the most interesting speculation I have found in the archives has been around physics. For instance, the link below is a discussion of how big the Whorl may be\nbased on the effects of the acceleration experienced by Silk in the floater.\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0606.shtml\n\nIn response to the email below, I think that the geographical changes are what situate Urth so far in the future. However I see nothing in the text to indicate that these are in fact normal geographical processes.\nThe Urth's core may have been cooled when the geo-thermal energy was in some way mapped. (Where did the energy to create the Whorl come from? And before that the star-faring civilisations\nthat rose and fell?). Is it ever established who exactly put the black hole in the sun? Could it have been a botched attempt to harness the energy of the sun?\n\nLikewise the mountains containing evidence of past ages. What struck me in this section of the job is how incredible the engineering job that created these mountains of Auturchs was. Severian at one point\nwonders how the machinery could have passed this way. Technology that would allow an Auturch to carve their face in the mountain would surely allow them to create artificial mountains using whatever building\nmaterial was to hand (digging deep into the Earth's crust even to obtain the materials).\n\n\n\n\n___________________________________________\nFrom: John Smith \nSubject: (urth) How Far in the Future is Urth?\nTo: urth at urth.net\nMessage-ID: <260958.42436.qm at web180009.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\nPeople seem to have significant differences of opinion as to how far in the future Severian's Urth is. Is it a few thousand years in the future or a few hundred million?\n\nI lean toward one million years for these reasons:\n\n1. The moon has been irrigated and now supports vast forests. Changing a barren rock into a place that supports life would take a long time.\n2. Mining is done by digging up forgotten buried cities. \n3. At some point in Claw, Severian climbs down a cliff, passing by layers of sediments that must have taken ages to lay down.\n4. Enough time has passed for star-faring civilizations to have arisen and fallen.\n5. Against the idea of hundreds of millions of years having passed, I would point out that there are still seven continents.\nAnd North and South America seem to still be in the same relative positions.\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493503D4.7030803@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T09:45:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFF2@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) wrote:\nLikewise the mountains containing evidence of past ages. What struck me \nin this section of the job is how incredible the engineering job that \ncreated these mountains of Auturchs was. Severian at one point\n\nwonders how the machinery could have passed this way. Technology that \nwould allow an Auturch to carve their face in the mountain would surely \nallow them to create artificial mountains using whatever building\n\nmaterial was to hand (digging deep into the Earth's crust even to obtain \nthe materials)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mountain faces are precisely as believable as Mt. Rushmore and \nGeorgia's Stone Mountain." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFF4@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-12-02T09:53:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<493503D4.7030803@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mountain faces are precisely as believable as Mt. Rushmore and Georgia's Stone Mountain. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < > \n\nNo, they are as believable as an unspecified number of these back to back.\n\nHowever I do believe that the mountains exist. I also believe that the cliff face that Severian is not created by geographical forces but by human activity which may be\ndeliberate (http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2007113002&IA=EP2007002964&DISPLAY=DESC) or incidental (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresh_Kills_Landfill).\n\nSo, the argument here is not about whether the mountains exist but whether the forces that created the mountains and cooled the Earth's core were natural or not.\n\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4935C471.9050409@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T23:27:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6AFF4@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) wrote:\nThe mountain faces are precisely as believable as Mt. Rushmore and \nGeorgia's Stone Mountain. -- Jeff Wilson -_ __jwilson at io.com \n_ <_ \n_ >\n\nNo, they are as believable as an unspecified number of these back to back." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how there becoming more popular over the chilliads or posing \nthem back to back makes them significantly less plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, the argument here is not about whether the mountains exist but \nwhether the forces that created the mountains and cooled the Earth's \ncore were natural or not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Abaia and Erebus are large as mountains themselves so that's at least \ntwo mountainous masses with at least partially unnatural provenance. \nThey are also situated to draw on tidal and geothermal energy.\n\nIt's also debatable that Urt's core really is cooling. The learned Ultan \nand Palaemon seem to get most of their education from the piles of books \nin the Library, and may have no way to know which books have outdated \ntheories; they may have enjoyed Bellamy's _Looking Backward_and gotten \nthe notion that the refrigeration of the earth is a foregone conclusion \n in the wisdom of the ancients." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<40976.198.1228261518.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T23:45:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<4935C471.9050409@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's also debatable that Urt's core really is cooling. The learned Ultan\nand Palaemon seem to get most of their education from the piles of books\nin the Library, and may have no way to know which books have outdated\ntheories; they may have enjoyed Bellamy's _Looking Backward_and gotten\nthe notion that the refrigeration of the earth is a foregone conclusion\n in the wisdom of the ancients." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's the artistic point of the cliff scene, world-famous for its\nevocation of deep time, if not to show that a gazillion years have passed?\n\nWhat's the artistic point of mentioning the cooling of Urth's core, if not\nto show that a gazillion years have passed?\n\nThe deep-futurity theory only requires one to accept a couple of\nimprobable survivals--the dual meaning of \"present\", the astronaut\npainting--from our period, in a book filled with improbabilities, and in\nline with SF tradition, in which future societies tend to be rather more\ninterested in our era than is strictly plausible. The \"score of chiliads\"\ntheory requires believing that all the evocations of Dying Earth\ntropes--so critical to the effect of the book--are coincidental or\ndeceptive, with only rather strenuous rationalizations for evidence.\n\nThe one thing that gives me pause is the black hole at the Sun's core,\nwhich could be a signal that the Dying Earth tropes are going to be\nrationalized, in the manner of the Matachin Tower and \"destriers\". But if\nthat's the case there should be solid textual evidence that, e.g., the\ncliff is artificial." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4936FF06.5020501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T21:49:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<40976.198.1228261518.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nIt's also debatable that Urt's core really is cooling. The learned Ultan\nand Palaemon seem to get most of their education from the piles of books\nin the Library, and may have no way to know which books have outdated\ntheories; they may have enjoyed Bellamy's _Looking Backward_and gotten\nthe notion that the refrigeration of the earth is a foregone conclusion\n in the wisdom of the ancients." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's the artistic point of the cliff scene, world-famous for its\nevocation of deep time, if not to show that a gazillion years have passed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To show that many, many human societies have arisen, fallen, and been \ntrampled unto dust, and the dust piled upon dust until it has become \nfused into rock. Wolfe may be one-upping Shelly: Not only is there \nnothing left of Ozymandias' works but sand and fragments, but they are \ndeeply buried by the sand and fragments from his dozens of peers who \nfollowed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's the artistic point of mentioning the cooling of Urth's core, if not\nto show that a gazillion years have passed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To show the ironically ignorant nature of the far future civilization ( \nparaphrasing \"there is another word for it I can't recall, but lightning \nis what makes it go\") who continue to be brought down by human hubris in \ntheir attempts to ascend to godlike heights of wisdom." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49370AA1.9020100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-03T22:39:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<4936FF06.5020501@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a fine answer, especially the second part.\n\nHowever, to be fair, Severian also remarks on tree stumps having been petrified, and then performs one of the speculations for which he is notorious, without pointing even slightly in the direction of hubris. Perhaps these can also be read as opportunities for Severian to be Severian.\n\nDavid" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 15:49:58 -0600\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <4936FF06.5020501 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nTim Walters wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's also debatable that Urt's core really is cooling. The learned Ultan\nand Palaemon seem to get most of their education from the piles of books\nin the Library, and may have no way to know which books have outdated\ntheories; they may have enjoyed Bellamy's _Looking Backward_and gotten\nthe notion that the refrigeration of the earth is a foregone conclusion\n in the wisdom of the ancients." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \n\nWhat's the artistic point of the cliff scene, world-famous for its\nevocation of deep time, if not to show that a gazillion years have passed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nTo show that many, many human societies have arisen, fallen, and been \ntrampled unto dust, and the dust piled upon dust until it has become \nfused into rock. Wolfe may be one-upping Shelly: Not only is there \nnothing left of Ozymandias' works but sand and fragments, but they are \ndeeply buried by the sand and fragments from his dozens of peers who \nfollowed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the artistic point of mentioning the cooling of Urth's core, if not\nto show that a gazillion years have passed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nTo show the ironically ignorant nature of the far future civilization ( \nparaphrasing \"there is another word for it I can't recall, but lightning \nis what makes it go\") who continue to be brought down by human hubris in \ntheir attempts to ascend to godlike heights of wisdom.\n\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<29661.198.1228345229.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T23:00:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<4936FF06.5020501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the artistic point of the cliff scene, world-famous for its\nevocation of deep time, if not to show that a gazillion years have\npassed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To show that many, many human societies have arisen, fallen, and been\ntrampled unto dust, and the dust piled upon dust until it has become\nfused into rock." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yes, exactly. That takes a gazillion years, not 20,000, and is more\npowerful for representing a gazillion years of human futility rather than\n20,000.\n\nI thought you (or somebody) was proposing that Typhon had artificially\ncreated these cliffs, which completely vitiates this reading. Certainly\nthere's no natural process that can create such a cliff in 20,000 years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the artistic point of mentioning the cooling of Urth's core, if\nnot\nto show that a gazillion years have passed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To show the ironically ignorant nature of the far future civilization (\nparaphrasing \"there is another word for it I can't recall, but lightning\nis what makes it go\") who continue to be brought down by human hubris in\ntheir attempts to ascend to godlike heights of wisdom." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This might fly if there were textual evidence for it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T23:24:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<29661.198.1228345229.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What's the artistic point of the cliff scene, world-famous for its\nevocation of deep time, if not to show that a gazillion years have\npassed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To show that many, many human societies have arisen, fallen, and been\ntrampled unto dust, and the dust piled upon dust until it has become\nfused into rock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, yes, exactly. That takes a gazillion years, not 20,000, and is more\npowerful for representing a gazillion years of human futility rather than\n20,000.\n\nI thought you (or somebody) was proposing that Typhon had artificially\ncreated these cliffs, which completely vitiates this reading. Certainly\nthere's no natural process that can create such a cliff in 20,000 years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see why not.\nsurely in that time there would be enough geographical change for some changes in the mountain ranges.\nThat could have been a Landfill sheared in half by a fault in the mountain range.\nAnd, if you can't accept landfill, there are cities under cities under cities within less 10k years of Earth's history.\n\nWhat I find a bigger mystery is What did that mosaic depict? Are there any clues?\n\n\nWhen I asked \"are there rules to fiction now\" I didn't frame my question right.\nwhat I meant to say is, Are we to presume Wolfe has worked this thing out perfectly so that there are no scientific implausibilities. It was in response to a statement like \"There SHOULD be internal consistency\". And of course, as the Mark Twain Rules would suggest, that there should be. But that doesn't mean its' not a fiction if it breaks the rules.\nI think the most implausible idea posited yet would be that Wolfe has perfectly crafted a world that 'could' exist exactly as he's written it in his Science Fantasy. \n\nThe stone town would have weathered more in 20,000 years. Ok. sure. notch one on the implausibilities list.\nyou know, while there are solar ship designs out there, I still find 1000 masts and 100,000 spars with continent size sails implausible. And then this bit about Aquastors. Why can we accept some flights of literary fancy and not others?\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<31006.198.1228348458.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T23:54:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "surely in that time there would be enough geographical change for some\nchanges in the mountain ranges." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not really. And the hard part is turning dirt into rock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, if you can't accept landfill, there are cities under cities under\ncities within less 10k years of Earth's history." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None of them have fused into rock yet, or come anywhere near the height of\nthat cliff, or been worn away by erosion *after* turning into rock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why can we accept some flights of literary\nfancy and not others?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If there were textual evidence for BOTNS being set a few chiliads in the\nfuture, I would of course have to accept that the cliff got there somehow\n(with some disappointment, since one of the best scenes in the book would\nbe basically ruined). But there is no such evidence, so I prefer the\nobvious and aesthetically superior explanation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T00:15:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<31006.198.1228348458.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, the text does specify it as rock, and thus I suppose you are right. it couldn't be a landfill.\n\nI'm no archaeologist, but isn't the earth a city like UR is found in considered rock and not just dirt.\nand if not, isn't it rocky enough for someone like Severian who knows of Lightning rather than Electricity, to take a hardpacked sediment as rock? I mean, you can stand on it. you can carve steps into it. What does Severian know of the definition of rock? It does mention the stuff was deposited chiliads before the first stones of Nessus were laid, but again, this is just Severian's understanding.\n\nI guess I don't have a firm opinion either way.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Tim Walters [mailto:walters at doubtfulpalace.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 03:54 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "surely in that time there would be enough geographical change for some\nchanges in the mountain ranges." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not really. And the hard part is turning dirt into rock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And, if you can't accept landfill, there are cities under cities under\ncities within less 10k years of Earth's history." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "None of them have fused into rock yet, or come anywhere near the height of\nthat cliff, or been worn away by erosion *after* turning into rock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why can we accept some flights of literary\nfancy and not others?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If there were textual evidence for BOTNS being set a few chiliads in the\nfuture, I would of course have to accept that the cliff got there somehow\n(with some disappointment, since one of the best scenes in the book would\nbe basically ruined). But there is no such evidence, so I prefer the\nobvious and aesthetically superior explanation.\n\n-- \nTim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4937239E.8080501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T00:26:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49370AA1.9020100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat's a fine answer, especially the second part.\n\nHowever, to be fair, Severian also remarks on tree stumps having been\npetrified, and then performs one of the speculations for which he is\nnotorious, without pointing even slightly in the direction of hubris.\nPerhaps these can also be read as opportunities for Severian to be\nSeverian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Petrified tree stumps are no problem, they can happen in as little as \n100,000 years, and the pile of uncorruptive statue-bodies at Saltus \ndemonstrate that a similar preservative process was in use in some \ndistant time - for all we know, the tree stumps were thus petrified for \nuse playing draughts in a park." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3130.198.1228350535.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T00:28:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm no archaeologist, but isn't the earth a city like UR is found in\nconsidered rock and not just dirt." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nope. Otherwise the artifacts would be fossilized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and if not, isn't it rocky enough for someone like Severian who knows of\nLightning rather than Electricity, to take a hardpacked sediment as rock?\nI mean, you can stand on it. you can carve steps into it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can't build a cliff that tall out of it without it collapsing.\n\nBut for me this is somewhat beside the point. If the scene doesn't\nindicate deep futurity, then there's simply no reason for it to exist. I'm\nhappy to accept felicitous implausibilities--in fact what I'm advocating\nis still rather implausible--but not ones that reduce rather than enhance\nthe meaning of the text." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T00:42:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<3130.198.1228350535.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Tim Walters [mailto:walters at doubtfulpalace.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 04:28 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm no archaeologist, but isn't the earth a city like UR is found in\nconsidered rock and not just dirt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nope. Otherwise the artifacts would be fossilized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and if not, isn't it rocky enough for someone like Severian who knows of\nLightning rather than Electricity, to take a hardpacked sediment as rock?\nI mean, you can stand on it. you can carve steps into it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can't build a cliff that tall out of it without it collapsing.\n\nBut for me this is somewhat beside the point. If the scene doesn't\nindicate deep futurity, then there's simply no reason for it to exist. I'm\nhappy to accept felicitous implausibilities--in fact what I'm advocating\nis still rather implausible--but not ones that reduce rather than enhance\nthe meaning of the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay.\nI think you've swayed me.\nHow long are you suggesting again? I lose track of which ideas link to which account." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49372810.9080000@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T00:45:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<29661.198.1228345229.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nWhat's the artistic point of the cliff scene, world-famous for its\nevocation of deep time, if not to show that a gazillion years have\npassed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To show that many, many human societies have arisen, fallen, and been\ntrampled unto dust, and the dust piled upon dust until it has become\nfused into rock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, yes, exactly. That takes a gazillion years, not 20,000, and is more\npowerful for representing a gazillion years of human futility rather than\n20,000." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Petrification and fossilization can happen in as little as 100,000 \nyears, and things might be sped up by the odd industrial spill of \nfuturo-embalming fluid or nuclear bombardment could speed things up in \ntheory. It would still take millions of years for the layers to be \nthrust upward on a mountainous scale without a cataclysm on the scale of \nthe White Fountain's arrival." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought you (or somebody) was proposing that Typhon had artificially\ncreated these cliffs, which completely vitiates this reading. Certainly\nthere's no natural process that can create such a cliff in 20,000 years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What's the artistic point of mentioning the cooling of Urth's core, if\nnot\nto show that a gazillion years have passed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To show the ironically ignorant nature of the far future civilization (\nparaphrasing \"there is another word for it I can't recall, but lightning\nis what makes it go\") who continue to be brought down by human hubris in\ntheir attempts to ascend to godlike heights of wisdom." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This might fly if there were textual evidence for it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Lightning,\" Master Gurloes said as he rammed the loose cable home. \n\"There's another word for it, but I forget. Anyway, the revolutionary \nhere runs by lightning.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26221.198.1228351829.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T00:50:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49372810.9080000@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Petrification and fossilization can happen in as little as 100,000\nyears," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of one layer of sediment, maybe. Of a whole cliff's worth? No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This might fly if there were textual evidence for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Lightning,\" Master Gurloes said as he rammed the loose cable home.\n\"There's another word for it, but I forget. Anyway, the revolutionary\nhere runs by lightning.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant textual evidence for human-caused cooling of Urth's core, not of\nthe civilization's \"ironically ignorant nature,\" with which I quite agree." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<27315.198.1228351907.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T00:51:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How long are you suggesting again? I lose track of which ideas link to\nwhich account." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been deliberately using the utterly vague term \"gazillion.\" I don't\nthink we're meant to put a number on it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<90428.3437.qm@web180006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-12-04T02:18:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<27315.198.1228351907.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 12/3/08, Tim Walters wrote:\nFrom: Tim Walters \nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 7:51 PM\nHow long are you suggesting again? I lose track of\nwhich ideas link to\nwhich account.\n\nI've been deliberately using the utterly vague term\n\"gazillion.\" I don't\nthink we're meant to put a number on it.\n\n-- \nTim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Based on the cliff sediments and the forested moon, I vote for 3.5 gazillion years, give or take a gazillion.\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49373E92.9090009@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T02:21:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<3130.198.1228350535.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nI'm no archaeologist, but isn't the earth a city like UR is found in\nconsidered rock and not just dirt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nope. Otherwise the artifacts would be fossilized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and if not, isn't it rocky enough for someone like Severian who knows of\nLightning rather than Electricity, to take a hardpacked sediment as rock?\nI mean, you can stand on it. you can carve steps into it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can't build a cliff that tall out of it without it collapsing.\n\nBut for me this is somewhat beside the point. If the scene doesn't\nindicate deep futurity, then there's simply no reason for it to exist. I'm\nhappy to accept felicitous implausibilities--in fact what I'm advocating\nis still rather implausible--but not ones that reduce rather than enhance\nthe meaning of the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What a kind offer! What objective metric is being used by what fully \ninformed party to judge the meaning of the text?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49374608.9060509@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T02:52:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<26221.198.1228351829.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nPetrification and fossilization can happen in as little as 100,000\nyears," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of one layer of sediment, maybe. Of a whole cliff's worth? No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This might fly if there were textual evidence for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Lightning,\" Master Gurloes said as he rammed the loose cable home.\n\"There's another word for it, but I forget. Anyway, the revolutionary\nhere runs by lightning.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I meant textual evidence for human-caused cooling of Urth's core, not of\nthe civilization's \"ironically ignorant nature,\" with which I quite agree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think there's *any* cooling of Urth's core, from any cause, as \nwe understanding here in 2008. The dimming of the old Sun and chilliads \nof environmental damage are more than enough to cover the general \ncooling of the surface." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49037.198.1228360026.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T03:07:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49373E92.9090009@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But for me this is somewhat beside the point. If the scene doesn't\nindicate deep futurity, then there's simply no reason for it to exist.\nI'm\nhappy to accept felicitous implausibilities--in fact what I'm advocating\nis still rather implausible--but not ones that reduce rather than\nenhance\nthe meaning of the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What a kind offer!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Offer? I just met her!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What objective metric is being used by what fully\ninformed party to judge the meaning of the text?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None, as far as I know. Do you have any suggestions?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49867.198.1228360256.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T03:10:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49374608.9060509@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think there's *any* cooling of Urth's core, from any cause, as\nwe understanding here in 2008." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought someone cited a quote describing such cooling upthread, but\ncan't remember the details. I'll check my older e-mail when I get home.\n\nIf not, then obviously it ceases to be evidence for deep futurity." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FB9F454-731B-40FD-9757-C4A75DC8ED5D@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T07:20:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49373E92.9090009@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but not ones that reduce rather than enhance\nthe meaning of the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What a kind offer! What objective metric is being used by what fully \ninformed party to judge the meaning of the text?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quandrum Gazilliometrics.\n\nthe standard scale for mindfucks, methinks." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49382272.1060405@calmeilles.co.uk>", "from": { "name": "Matthew malthouse", "address": "calmeilles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:33:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nWhen I asked \"are there rules to fiction now\" I didn't frame my\nquestion right.\nwhat I meant to say is, Are we to presume Wolfe has worked this thing\nout perfectly so that there are no scientific implausibilities. It was\nin response to a statement like \"There SHOULD be internal consistency\".\nAnd of course, as the Mark Twain Rules would suggest, that there should\nbe. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You ommit the other part of what I said\n\n \"...or a reason for the lack thereof.\"\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:38:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<49382272.1060405@calmeilles.co.uk>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Matthew malthouse [mailto:calmeilles at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 10:33 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute\n\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When I asked \"are there rules to fiction now\" I didn't frame my\nquestion right.\nwhat I meant to say is, Are we to presume Wolfe has worked this thing\nout perfectly so that there are no scientific implausibilities. It was\nin response to a statement like \"There SHOULD be internal consistency\".\nAnd of course, as the Mark Twain Rules would suggest, that there should\nbe. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You ommit the other part of what I said\n\n \"...or a reason for the lack thereof.\"\n\nMatthew" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No I didn't.\n\"Are we to presume Wolfe has worked this thing out perfectly so that there are no scientific implausibilities\"\n\nthis would be the reason for the lack thereof, that Wolfe didn't make a perfectly scientifically viable world here. \n\nAgain, is he writing a fantasy or a prediction?\nwe can give the guy a little leeway on the science speculation, surely.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370812041048w4b18999s79afbd6e61c54eaf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:48:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:38 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nAgain, is he writing a fantasy or a prediction?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are those our only choices?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:53:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812041048w4b18999s79afbd6e61c54eaf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Again, is he writing a fantasy or a prediction?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are those our only choices?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, take as many choices as you need to realize that this isn't Science Fact." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370812041234i861c58ra121b5069bdd4980@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:34:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nAgain, is he writing a fantasy or a prediction?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are those our only choices?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, take as many choices as you need to realize that this isn't Science\nFact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose my point was that SF is not (or at least is rarely) about\nprediction. Rather, it is (more frequently) about contemporary\n\"reality,\" as viewed through the distorting/magnifying/reflecting\neye of significant differance. (And thereby hangs an entire\ntheoretical discussion which is more appropriate, perhaps, to a\nDelany list than to this list...)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T21:03:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812041234i861c58ra121b5069bdd4980@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:34 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nRather, it is (more frequently) about contemporary\n\"reality,\" as viewed through the distorting/magnifying/reflecting\neye of significant differance. (And thereby hangs an entire\ntheoretical discussion which is more appropriate, perhaps, to a\nDelany list than to this list...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there such a list? Because, well, *I'd* hang out there.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370812041341i2f3e6e7j9a2a13fea4f85390@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T21:41:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a Delany list, but it doesn't get into theory discussions very\noften,\nalas..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Dec 4, 2008, at 2:34 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rather, it is (more frequently) about contemporary\n\"reality,\" as viewed through the distorting/magnifying/reflecting\neye of significant differance. (And thereby hangs an entire\ntheoretical discussion which is more appropriate, perhaps, to a\nDelany list than to this list...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there such a list? Because, well, *I'd* hang out there.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4938867B.6020207@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T01:40:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812041341i2f3e6e7j9a2a13fea4f85390@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThere is a Delany list, but it doesn't get into theory discussions very \noften,\nalas..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Delany's the champion of the SF reading protocols theory, right? I \nsuppose I am advocating a weak version of that, in that serious science \nfiction writers ought to be informed about such science as is commonly \nfound elsewhere in the genre, which can easilly be presumed to include \nthe Guiness Book of Records and Asmiov's corpus of non-fictional work." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<559337.20913.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T03:10:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<4938867B.6020207@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Delany's \"reading protocol\" has less to do with actual science than with a willingness to allow language to affect our imaginations in ways that break usual possibilities.\n\nIn some ways, it's the opposite of having a shared scientific background. It's more about readers being willing to allow their sense of \"reality\" (or, in this case, \"scientific possibility\") to be altered with a single word or phrase.\n\nHe's got an example of a hypothetical story that starts out with the sentence: \"The red sun is high, the blue low.\" And he talks about how a science fiction audience reacts to this kind of sentence by constructing a kind of consistency (or \"world\") around the given data/words rather than expecting it to conform.\n\nBut that's from his early stuff. Later, he got all deconstruction-y.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 7:40:11 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThere is a Delany list, but it doesn't get into theory discussions very often,\nalas..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Delany's the champion of the SF reading protocols theory, right? I suppose I am advocating a weak version of that, in that serious science fiction writers ought to be informed about such science as is commonly found elsewhere in the genre, which can easilly be presumed to include the Guiness Book of Records and Asmiov's corpus of non-fictional work.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12953.67.142.130.15.1228456715.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T05:58:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me some too!\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:34 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rather, it is (more frequently) about contemporary\n\"reality,\" as viewed through the distorting/magnifying/reflecting\neye of significant differance. (And thereby hangs an entire\ntheoretical discussion which is more appropriate, perhaps, to a\nDelany list than to this list...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there such a list? Because, well, *I'd* hang out there.\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15615.67.142.130.39.1228460276.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T06:57:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812041341i2f3e6e7j9a2a13fea4f85390@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where is a Delany list? Can you say anything more about it?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a Delany list, but it doesn't get into theory discussions very\noften,\nalas...\n\nOn Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:34 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Rather, it is (more frequently) about contemporary\n\"reality,\" as viewed through the distorting/magnifying/reflecting\neye of significant differance. (And thereby hangs an entire\ntheoretical discussion which is more appropriate, perhaps, to a\nDelany list than to this list...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there such a list? Because, well, *I'd* hang out there.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4938D522.7000906@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T07:15:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<15615.67.142.130.39.1228460276.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhere is a Delany list? Can you say anything more about it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "delany-list at yahoogroups.com (has been active in the past, not very right \nnow)\n\nAnd there's a John Crowley list, but it's really dead:\n\njohncrowleyreaders at yahoogroups.com" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13171.67.142.130.39.1228461370.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T07:16:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<559337.20913.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, he will start writing this totally egregious academic prose. I have\nnever been able to read those passages. Every third line until it is\nover....\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Delany's \"reading protocol\" has less to do with actual science than with a\nwillingness to allow language to affect our imaginations in ways that\nbreak usual possibilities.\n\nIn some ways, it's the opposite of having a shared scientific background.\nIt's more about readers being willing to allow their sense of \"reality\"\n(or, in this case, \"scientific possibility\") to be altered with a single\nword or phrase.\n\nHe's got an example of a hypothetical story that starts out with the\nsentence: \"The red sun is high, the blue low.\" And he talks about how a\nscience fiction audience reacts to this kind of sentence by constructing a\nkind of consistency (or \"world\") around the given data/words rather than\nexpecting it to conform.\n\nBut that's from his early stuff. Later, he got all deconstruction-y.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 7:40:11 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) House Absolute\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is a Delany list, but it doesn't get into theory discussions very\noften,\nalas..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Delany's the champion of the SF reading protocols theory, right? I\nsuppose I am advocating a weak version of that, in that serious science\nfiction writers ought to be informed about such science as is commonly\nfound elsewhere in the genre, which can easilly be presumed to include the\nGuiness Book of Records and Asmiov's corpus of non-fictional work.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10145.67.142.130.39.1228462033.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T07:27:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hamlet's Mill", "in_reply_to": "<4938D522.7000906@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the web!\n\nhttp://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hamlets_mill/hamletmill.htm\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081205082653.DCD3448044@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-12-05T08:26:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<4938D522.7000906@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:15 05/12/2008, you wrote:\nAnd there's a John Crowley list, but it's really dead:\n\njohncrowleyreaders at yahoogroups.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Crowley also keeps an interesting blog:\nhttp://crowleycrow.livejournal.com\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B039@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-12-05T16:22:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<20081205082653.DCD3448044@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed, but is the leeway on his understanding of geological processes or engineering processes?\n\n:)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No I didn't.\n\"Are we to presume Wolfe has worked this thing out perfectly so that there are no scientific implausibilities\"\n\nthis would be the reason for the lack thereof, that Wolfe didn't make a perfectly scientifically viable world here. \n\nAgain, is he writing a fantasy or a prediction?\nwe can give the guy a little leeway on the science speculation, surely.\n\n~witz\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. 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