{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5248", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5248, "subject": "\"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "messages": 27, "voices": 9, "first": "2008-12-01T16:23:28+00:00", "last": "2008-12-06T05:06:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812010823l55dae077m4753972440e32089@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T16:23:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I previously posted a theory that Chris/Ignacio had killed Valentin and set\nCaptain Burt up for betrayal by Lesage. I now think that idea was mistaken.\n\nChris says confessions that don't confess are useless (p. 281). He spends\ntime justifying why he will break his vow of chastity (p. 321). If he was\nplanning all of these other horrible crimes, wouldn't he leave\njustifications for these also? It's also improbable that he would set\nCaptain Burt up for betrayal in a way that could get Novia killed or raped.\nThere are alternatives if other time travelers are involved. In particular,\nCaptain Burt and Lesage could be time-travelers.\n\nStart with the man who received this confessional manuscript, or a criminal\nassociate of his who got hold of it. Couldn't that man see a golden\nopportunity to become a rich pirate himself? From what Chris said about the\nwristwatches (p. 20) it looks like the whole monastery went back in time a\nyear or more before Chris left. The man who would become Lesage could have\nhitched a ride and gotten out to establish himself before Chris did. He\nwould have all the advance knowledge he needed to carry out the killing of\nValentin and the betrayal of Captain Burt. In this case, Valentin's master\nwas not the same man. The bogus Lesage killed Valentin, and put out a large\nreward he knew he would never have to pay, in order to misappropriate this\nbackground story for himself.\n\nTaking the theory a step further, it's possible that \"Captain Burt\" was a\nyoung criminal associate of Lesage taken back in time to play that role.\nThere are a few hints:\n\n 1. Captain Burt is marked as a time traveler by his anachronistic use of\n the racial slur \"Dago\" (p. 39), which wasn't used until the 1800's (the age\n of pirates was circa 1650). He also translates a ship's name (\"Saint\n Charity\" p. 39) which a real man of the sea would never do (p. 232).\n 2. He hints that he gets the Jersey/New Jersey joke (pp. 39, 138).\n 3. Burt is taller than the average person of the time, though shorter\n than Chris (\"...the deck beams just cleared his head. I had to crouch in\n that cabin, just like I crouched in our cabin on *Sabina*\" p. 279).\n 4. \"The *Weald* was the first to put out. At the time, I thought nothing\n of it.\" (p. 287). Why would Chris ever think something of it? He may have\n had suspicions that Burt had a secret rendezvous with Lesage. Lesage\n probably kept his knowledge secret from his accomplice, and only told him\n what he needed to know just before it was necessary. He certainly didn't\n tell him about the betrayal.\n 5. From the narrative, the time-travelers might have expected that\n near-death in the past would send them back as adults to the time of their\n own birth. Chris came back when he nearly died in the hurricane. This may be\n the source of Burt's confidence at the end (p. 304).\n 6. If Burt did come back to his own time and survived (a modern ER might\n have saved him (p. 303)), there's one more thing he might do. He might have\n a son genetically engineered, and name him Chris. Burt may be the mysterious\n father who trained his son in criminal survival techniques and then left in\n him the monastery to go back in time. Memories of the attack on Portobello\n made Chris dream of his father (p. 235). Could he have recognized Burt as a\n young version of his father on a subconscious level?\n\nThe time paradoxes in all this boggle the mind. But this seems far more\nsatisfying than the original \"evil scheming Chris\" theory." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812010824u36d8bfcdp9743f23b3f1a1c2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T16:24:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812010823l55dae077m4753972440e32089@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I previously posted a theory that Chris/Ignacio had killed Valentin and set\nCaptain Burt up for betrayal by Lesage. I now think that idea was mistaken.\n\nChris says confessions that don't confess are useless (p. 281). He spends\ntime justifying why he will break his vow of chastity (p. 321). If he was\nplanning all of these other horrible crimes, wouldn't he leave\njustifications for these also? It's also improbable that he would set\nCaptain Burt up for betrayal in a way that could get Novia killed or raped.\nThere are alternatives if other time travelers are involved. In particular,\nCaptain Burt and Lesage could be time-travelers.\n\nStart with the man who received this confessional manuscript, or a criminal\nassociate of his who got hold of it. Couldn't that man see a golden\nopportunity to become a rich pirate himself? From what Chris said about the\nwristwatches (p. 20) it looks like the whole monastery went back in time a\nyear or more before Chris left. The man who would become Lesage could have\nhitched a ride and gotten out to establish himself before Chris did. He\nwould have all the advance knowledge he needed to carry out the killing of\nValentin and the betrayal of Captain Burt. In this case, Valentin's master\nwas not the same man. The bogus Lesage killed Valentin, and put out a large\nreward he knew he would never have to pay, in order to misappropriate this\nbackground story for himself.\n\nTaking the theory a step further, it's possible that \"Captain Burt\" was a\nyoung criminal associate of Lesage taken back in time to play that role.\nThere are a few hints:\n\n 1. Captain Burt is marked as a time traveler by his anachronistic use of\n the racial slur \"Dago\" (p. 39), which wasn't used until the 1800's (the age\n of pirates was circa 1650). He also translates a ship's name (\"Saint\n Charity\" p. 39) which a real man of the sea would never do (p. 232).\n 2. He hints that he gets the Jersey/New Jersey joke (pp. 39, 138).\n 3. Burt is taller than the average person of the time, though shorter\n than Chris (\"...the deck beams just cleared his head. I had to crouch in\n that cabin, just like I crouched in our cabin on *Sabina*\" p. 279).\n 4. \"The *Weald* was the first to put out. At the time, I thought nothing\n of it.\" (p. 287). Why would Chris ever think something of it? He may have\n had suspicions that Burt had a secret rendezvous with Lesage. Lesage\n probably kept his knowledge secret from his accomplice, and only told him\n what he needed to know just before it was necessary. He certainly didn't\n tell him about the betrayal.\n 5. From the narrative, the time-travelers might have expected that\n near-death in the past would send them back as adults to the time of their\n own birth. Chris came back when he nearly died in the hurricane. This may be\n the source of Burt's confidence at the end (p. 304).\n 6. If Burt did come back to his own time and survived (a modern ER might\n have saved him (p. 303)), there's one more thing he might do. He might have\n a son genetically engineered, and name him Chris. Burt may be the mysterious\n father who trained his son in criminal survival techniques and then left in\n him the monastery to go back in time. Memories of the attack on Portobello\n made Chris dream of his father (p. 235). Could he have recognized Burt as a\n young version of his father on a subconscious level?\n\nThe time paradoxes in all this boggle the mind. But this seems far more\nsatisfying than the original \"evil scheming Chris\" theory." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812010843g200bc2c5y4b73b42642bb977f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T16:43:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812010824u36d8bfcdp9743f23b3f1a1c2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recently posted a theory here that Chris/Ignacio murdered Valentin and\nhelped Lesage set up Captain Burt for betrayal. I now think the truth is\nmore complicated than that. Chris says confessions that don't confess are\nuseless (p. 281). He spends time justifying why he will break his vow of\nchastity (p. 321). If he was planning all of these other horrible crimes,\nwouldn't he leave justifications for these also? It's also improbable that\nhe would set Captain Burt up for betrayal in a way that could get Novia\nkilled or raped. There are alternatives if other time travelers are\ninvolved. In particular, Captain Burt and Lesage could be time-travelers.\n\nStart with the man who received this confessional manuscript, or a criminal\nassociate of his who got hold of it. Couldn't that man see a golden\nopportunity to become a rich pirate himself? From what Chris said about the\nwristwatches (p. 20) it looks like the whole monastery went back in time a\nyear or more before Chris left. The man who would become Lesage could have\nhitched a ride and gotten out to establish himself before Chris did. He\nwould have all the advance knowledge he needed to carry out the killing of\nValentin and the betrayal of Captain Burt. In this case, Valentin's master\nwas not the same man. The bogus Lesage killed Valentin, and put out a large\nreward he knew he would never have to pay, in order to misappropriate this\nbackground story for himself.\n\nTaking the theory a step further, it's possible that \"Captain Burt\" was a\nyoung criminal associate of Lesage taken back in time to play that role.\nThere are a few hints:\n\n 1. Captain Burt is marked as a time traveler by his anachronistic use of\n the racial slur \"Dago\" (p. 39), which wasn't used until the 1800's (the age\n of pirates was circa 1650). He also translates a ship's name (\"Saint\n Charity\" p. 39) which a real man of the sea would never do (p. 232).\n 2. He hints that he gets the Jersey/New Jersey joke (pp. 39, 138).\n 3. Burt is taller than the average person of the time, though shorter\n than Chris (\"...the deck beams just cleared his head. I had to crouch in\n that cabin, just like I crouched in our cabin on *Sabina*\" p. 279).\n 4. \"The *Weald* was the first to put out. At the time, I thought nothing\n of it.\" (p. 287). Why would Chris ever think something of it? He may have\n had suspicions that Burt had a secret rendezvous with Lesage. Lesage\n probably kept his knowledge secret from his accomplice, and only told him\n what he needed to know just before it was necessary. He certainly didn't\n tell him about the betrayal.\n 5. From the narrative, the time-travelers might have expected that\n near-death in the past would send them back as adults to the time of their\n own birth. Chris came back when he nearly died after the hurricane. This may\n be the source of Burt's confidence at the end (p. 304).\n 6. If Burt did come back to his own time and survived (a modern ER might\n have saved him (p. 303)), there's one more thing he might do. He might have\n a son genetically engineered, and name him Chris. Burt may be the mysterious\n father who trained his son in criminal survival techniques and then left in\n him the monastery to go back in time. Memories of the attack on Portobello\n made Chris dream of his father (p. 235). Could he have recognized Burt as a\n young version of his father on a subconscious level?\n\nThe time paradoxes in all this boggle the mind. But this seems far more\nsatisfying than the original \"evil scheming Chris\" theory." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812010847i56176b8la088ff3974a6ed60@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T16:47:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812010843g200bc2c5y4b73b42642bb977f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops -- sorry about multiple sends of the same message. My mailer was\nmalfunctioning and it looked like nothing was getting through, so I tried\nmultiple times." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T19:44:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812010843g200bc2c5y4b73b42642bb977f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Tallman," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 1 December 2008, you wrote:\nI recently posted a theory here that\nChris/Ignacio murdered Valentin and\nhelped Lesage set up Captain Burt for\nbetrayal. I now think the truth is more\ncomplicated than that. . . . There are\nalternatives if other time travelers are\ninvolved. In particular, Captain Burt\nand Lesage could be time-travelers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This hypothesis strikes me as unnecessarily complicated, but that's\nnot the only reason to doubt it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Taking the theory a step further, it's\npossible that \"Captain Burt\" was a\nyoung criminal associate of Lesage\ntaken back in time to play that role.\nThere are a few hints:\n\n1. Captain Burt is marked as a time\ntraveler by his anachronistic use of the\nracial slur \"Dago\" (p. 39), which wasn't\nused until the 1800's (the age of pirates\nwas circa 1650)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm afraid that both of these points are factually incorrect. The\nO.E.D. cites \"dago\" as appearing in print before 1725. As a slang\nword, it's likely to have been in use for a considerable time--several\ndecades--before its first print citation. At the time, it was\nunlikely to have been considered a slur by its users any more than\nShakespeare would have considered his use of the word \"Polack\" in\n_Hamlet_ to be a slur. Wolfe's having Burt correct himself when he\nfirst says it to Chris (also on page 39) is probably inaccurate,\nhistorically speaking. If it was insulting, it's more likely to have\nbeen a class issue than an ethnic one; \"dago\" might originally have\nsuggested that the person of whom it was used was a common deckhand,\nwhich would have offended anybody of a superior rank.\n\nThe Golden Age of Piracy is generally held to have been between 1680\nand 1720. Your date of 1650 is a generation too early." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He also translates a ship's name\n(\"Saint Charity\" p. 39) which a real man\nof the sea would never do (p. 232)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This strikes me as more likely to be Wolfe's way to indicate that\ndespite his denial (\"We've been hours tryin' to get our bearin's.\nNone of us speaks the lingo, you see,\" also on 39), Burt understands\nsome Spanish. Alternatively, he may be so far from able to speak\nSpanish that he doesn't try to pronounce the ship's name, but gives\nthe closest English equivalent that he can. (A more correct, and\ncertainly more idiomatic, translation would be \"_Holy Charity_\".)\nChris may also feel that the name of the ship that he tells Novia not\nto translate--_Castillo Blanco_--may be too funny, as she translates\nit to \"_White Castle_\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. He hints that he gets the Jersey/\nNew Jersey joke (pp. 39, 138)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see no reason to believe that Burt thinks Chris is from anywhere\nother than the island of Jersey. It's probably why he asks whether\nChris understands French (page 39 again); as a Channel Islander, he\ncould easily come into frequent contact with Frenchmen. His\nsuggestion that Chris go to New Jersey with his anticipated winnings\n(page 138) is probably suggested by (a) his belief that Chris is from\nJersey, which puts him in mind of George Carteret's colony--so named\nbecause Carteret is also a Jerseyman--and (b) the likelihoods that\nChris' money will go further and that he will be less likely to be\ndiscovered and prosecuted as a pirate in the colony." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Burt is taller than the average per-\nson of the time, though shorter than\nChris (\"...the deck beams just cleared\nhis head. I had to crouch in that cabin,\njust like I crouched in our cabin on\nSabina\" p. 279)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is irrelevant. George Washington was born in 1732, just after\nthe GAoP, and was 6'2\" (188 cm) tall. Burt, as a former midshipman,\nis probably of good birth, from the gentry or better, and would have\nhad adequate nutrition to reach his full height." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The time paradoxes in all this boggle\nthe mind. But this seems far more\nsatisfying than the original \"evil schem-\ning Chris\" theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do agree that the \"evil scheming Chris\" approach seems off-kilter for Wolfe.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812011328q10702e1fidc2ae18413c6b15b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-01T21:28:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Millman wrote:\nI'm afraid that both of these points are factually incorrect. The\nO.E.D. cites \"dago\" as appearing in print before 1725. As a slang\nword, it's likely to have been in use for a considerable time--several\ndecades--before its first print citation...\nThe Golden Age of Piracy is generally held to have been between 1680\nand 1720. Your date of 1650 is a generation too early." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for the date corrections. There's still enough of a gap\nbetween 1680 and 1725 that Wolfe may have intended a clue, but it's\nnot as clear as I first thought.\n\n...his belief that Chris is from Jersey, which puts him in mind of George" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Carteret's colony--so named because Carteret is also a Jerseyman..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the way, Burt refers to George Carteret as if still alive on p.\n138, and Carteret died in 1680. That tends to limit how late the story\ncan be set,\n\nBurt, as a former midshipman, is probably of good birth, from the gentry or" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "better, and would have had adequate nutrition to reach his full height." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He says of himself on p. 55, \"We weren't rich, you twig? My pa's a\ngrocer.\" Still, a grocer's son might have access to better food than\nmost.\n\nIt may be that Captain Burt was a pirate of that time who was duped by\nLesage, perhaps believing the man had oracular powers. The idea that\nLesage is a time-traveler who read Chris's manuscript can stand\nindependently." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812020938s48162cf3vf3d36dd30a92176@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T17:38:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812011328q10702e1fidc2ae18413c6b15b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " 1. Captain Burt is marked as a time traveler by his anachronistic use of\n the racial slur \"Dago\" (p. 39). According to the Online Etymology\n Dictionary it dates from\n 1823, and was used of Spanish or Portugese sailors on English or American\n ships. But Mark Millman on the urth\nlistsays\nthe O.E.D. cites the word as appearing in print before 1725. I checked\n the O.E.D. online, and the only early reference it cites is the diary of\n Jeremiah Bumstead\n(1723),\n which says \"Ye negro Dago hanged for fiering Mr. Powell's house...\" which is\n ambiguous since it could be the man's name. The next reference they give is\n dated 1832. I stand by my theory that this is a genuine anachronism. (The\n age of pirates that Chris visits is circa 1680).\n 2. To refine the date further, we know Drake sailed around the world in\n the *Golden Hind* \"almost a hundred years ago\" (p .139). That should mean\n less than 100 years, and Drake's voyage was from 1577 to 1580. Thalassocrat\n on the Urth listsuggested\na date of 1675 based on this." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812021227j762930a5h989a5c8584581d9d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T20:27:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812020938s48162cf3vf3d36dd30a92176@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just found another reference that helps clinch the case for Captain Burt's\n\"Dago\" anachronism, and ties him directly to Lesage.\n\nAsuka calls Chris a \"rital\" and he says \"I suppose she had picked that one\nup from Lesage, along with the rest of her French\" (p. 130). According to\nthe French Wikipedia entry for rital it\nsays (roughly translated) \"This term was given by the French to the Italian\nimmigrant workmen who came in mass before and after the Second World War to\nwork in France and Belgium.\" Two anachronistic racial slurs for our two\nsuspected time travelers? This is probably no coincidence." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812021442o4029a09eib710f218710b0704@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T22:42:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812021227j762930a5h989a5c8584581d9d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The more I check out Burt, the more bogus he looks. Here's more...\n\nBurt's story of being a midshipman on half-pay (p. 55) is a lie. Midshipmen\nwere in training to be officers, but were not yet officers. The lowest rank\nto get half-pay when a\nship is \"laid up\" in reserve was a lieutenant.\nThe HMS Lion , Burt's\nsupposed ship (p. 39) was a ship of the line from 1658 to 1677, and during\nthat time its guns were increased from 48 to 60. It does not appear to have\nbeen \"laid up\" during the time Burt could have been in the Royal Navy.\nBurt's knife was supposed to be very good because it was made of Sheffield\nsteel (p. 55). Steel was made in\nSheffieldfrom\nChaucer's time, but it was not especially good until 1750." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49361216.7080600@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T04:59:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n take two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812010843g200bc2c5y4b73b42642bb977f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nI recently posted a theory here that Chris/Ignacio murdered Valentin \nand helped Lesage set up Captain Burt for betrayal. I now think the \ntruth is more complicated than that. Chris says confessions that don't \nconfess are useless (p. 281). He spends time justifying why he will \nbreak his vow of chastity (p. 321). If he was planning all of these \nother horrible crimes, wouldn't he leave justifications for these \nalso? It's also improbable that he would set Captain Burt up for \nbetrayal in a way that could get Novia killed or raped. There are \nalternatives if other time travelers are involved. In particular, \nCaptain Burt and Lesage could be time-travelers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave,\n\n Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of Pirate Freedom to reference, \nand it's been a year since I read it, but I'd like to make a couple \npoints, nonetheless.\n Others on this list postulated, and I happen to agree, that there \nare at least 2 Chris2's. Jaime being the other. I read this spoiler \ntheory while I was still reading the book, and so noticed 2 things: One \nis that Chris does his musing about this world being either heaven or \nhell right after Jaime burns to death horribly. The other is Father \nChris asking God to please help him past the temptation to warn away \nyoung Chris and his father (presumably to have Sabina all to himself). \nI believe that Mr. Wolfe feels that, though there can be multiple \nfutures, there can be only one past. So the Father Chris that did not \nrise above the temptation (and must have left the monastery as soon as \nhe hit the past), must have gone insane when he saw Sabina's sketches of \nyoung Chris.\n I would be willing to believe that there was also a Father Chris \nbent on revenge.\n I do not, however, believe that Jaime sailed to New Guinea in order \nto kill Valentin. Valentin's murder is indeed mysterious.\n During the aforementioned discussion, I recall some supposition \nabout Bram Burt being another iteration of Chris. I don't believe that, \nbut you do make some excellent points toward his also being a time \ntraveller. I can't wait to buy myself a copy and read it again with \nthat in mind.\n One idea has occurred to me upon reading your theory and considering \nit, and that is that though I assumed the first time through that Chris \nwas the product of genetic engineering (\"...my father had me made...\"), \nit might actually be that he is a clone, and that clones with Chris' \nface are not uncommon in his time. Therefore it wouldn't surprise him \nif Brother Ignacio had look-alikes at the monastery. Just a thought.\n At any rate, to my mind, Brother Ignacio represents the best Father \nChris: the one that gets to live in heaven. I don't believe he would \nhave murdered Valentin or Bram Burt.\n I really loved this book. Thanks for reminding me of it.\n ---H" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493612B3.1020809@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T05:01:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n take two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812010843g200bc2c5y4b73b42642bb977f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nStart with the man who received this confessional manuscript, or a \ncriminal associate of his who got hold of it. Couldn't that man see a \ngolden opportunity to become a rich pirate himself?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One more point-\n\nI think the man who received the manuscript was none other than G.W.. \nThe same guy who translated those old scrolls, etc..\n---H" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T05:41:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<493612B3.1020809@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHenry writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the man who received the manuscript was none other than G.W." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat's correct, I think. This is a commonplace in science fiction and \nfantasy. In fact, you can write a whole alternative biography of Edgar Rice \nBurroughs (and someone has, though I forget where I read it) based on the \ninformation he gives you in the forewords to his various books about meeting John \nCarter, and so forth. Wolfe likes to play with this kind of stuff, as his \nintroduction to the Latro books indicates.\n \nJohn\n\n\n \n**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW \nAOL.com. \n(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812030822h1a655088p921c97d124ae76e4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T16:22:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Henry Eissler wrote:\n Others on this list postulated, and I happen to agree, that there\nare at least 2 Chris2's. Jaime being the other. I read this spoiler\ntheory while I was still reading the book, and so noticed 2 things: One\nis that Chris does his musing about this world being either heaven or\nhell right after Jaime burns to death horribly. The other is Father\nChris asking God to please help him past the temptation to warn away\nyoung Chris and his father (presumably to have Sabina all to himself).\nI believe that Mr. Wolfe feels that, though there can be multiple\nfutures, there can be only one past. So the Father Chris that did not\nrise above the temptation (and must have left the monastery as soon as\nhe hit the past), must have gone insane when he saw Sabina's sketches of\nyoung Chris." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't read the temptation paragraphs that way. \"What if my father decided\nnot to go to Cuba to run the casino? What if he did not enroll me in the\nmonastery school because of something I... happened to say to him? Novia\nwould be lost. Everything would be lost. *None if it would ever have\nhappened*.\" (p. 226) He didn't want to warn away young Chris and his father\nin order to have Sabina all to himself. On the contrary, he was afraid that\nhe would change the past and end up not knowing Sabina at all. The\ntemptation was simply to see himself as a young man, and to see his father\nagain.\n\nThe idea of multiple alternate Chris's accessing a common past is plausible\nbut not supported by the text IMHO. If true, it would mean no treasure for\npoor Ignacio, since Chris3 would have had to dig it up to become the rich\nSenor Guzman.\n\nIn any case, there is a physical clue showing Jaime wasn't Chris. Page 302:\n\"Novia had been married to Jaime Guzman for thirty-four months and had never\nbeen pregnant, so it had seemed to us that there was a good chance she never\nwould be. Now I knew it had been him. Maybe he had known it too, and that\nwas why he was so jealous.\" In other words, Jaime was sterile and Chris was\nnot. Also 34 months is nearly three years -- Chris3 didn't have enough time\nto do this, even if he left as soon as wristwatches disappeared at the\nmonastery." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812030853w4fedb5obea809d4ffd21c5e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T16:53:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812030822h1a655088p921c97d124ae76e4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Henry Eissler wrote:\nI think the man who received the manuscript was none other than G.W..\nThe same guy who translated those old scrolls, etc.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not quite feasible, because the world of Fr. Cris has city-to-city\nmonorails, human genetic engineering, and the communists out of power in\nCuba. But for the sake of argument, let's say the recipient managed to\ntransmit the manuscript back to our G.W. without revealing it to anyone\nelse. It's still possible for the other time travelers to know enough to\nintervene in Chris's life, if Chris's father is Captain Burt2.\n\nBurt2 seems to be the mastermind behind the whole plot. If so, the\n\"betrayal\" by Lesage isn't what it appears to be. When Burt appears to be\ndying, he is just sending himself back to the future. He knows he will\nrecover (in the year of his own birth) and he will pick up his share of the\ngold at secure location agreed on with Lesage in advance. No wonder he is\nsmiling and confident at the last. He knows he will survive, because it was\nhis older self who recruited him and Lesage to carry out this mission in the\nfirst place. He will use the pirate gold (plus knowledge of the future for\nthe next few years) to establish himself as a gangster. Part of the money\nwill go to create his genetically engineered son, Chris.\n\nBurt's first name is Bram, which the appendix says is short for Abraham. The\nbiblical Abraham is famous for almost offering up his only son Isaac to God\nwhen God asked him to. After this test of his faith, he was blessed to be\nthe father of multitudes of descendants. The New Testament takes Isaac as a\ntype of Christ. So here we have Bram giving up his only son to the monastery\nto be sent back in time on a \"mission from God.\" Bram will have multitudes\nof progeny descended from Chris and his children, and they may be highly\nsuccessful in investing their pirate weath given their foreknowledge of\nhistory.\n\nChristopher (a name meaning Christ-bearer) \"dies\" and comes back in a way\nthat his bride Novia doesn't recognize at first, just like the early\ndisciples had trouble recognizing the resurrected Christ. They will travel\naround the world, as the Church spread the Gospel." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49374AE6.9010702@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T03:13:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n take two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812030822h1a655088p921c97d124ae76e4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're right; 3 years is too long. I don't know about the \nsterility thing serving as proof, however- that could just have been the \nwill of God. Jaime could have contracted something along the way. \nAnything. And we don't know that Ignacio is potent, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nIn any case, there is a physical clue showing Jaime wasn't Chris. Page \n302: \"Novia had been married to Jaime Guzman for thirty-four months \nand had never been pregnant, so it had seemed to us that there was a \ngood chance she never would be. Now I knew it had been him. Maybe he \nhad known it too, and that was why he was so jealous.\" In other words, \nJaime was sterile and Chris was not. Also 34 months is nearly three \nyears -- Chris3 didn't have enough time to do this, even if he left as \nsoon as wristwatches disappeared at the monastery.\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49374B10.6000000@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T03:14:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n take two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812030853w4fedb5obea809d4ffd21c5e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Of course, I forgot that even Fr. Chris' time was in our future. I \ndon't remember anything about city-to-city monorails, though.\n But the manuscript that Chris passed on to his 'confessor' doesn't \nreally identify the monastery. It's walking distance to Havana, but how \nunique is that?\n Still, your Bram Burt-as-mastermind theory makes me wonder. The \nAbraham reference makes sense.\n But death is death. You don't mean that he believes that his \nexperiences will be carried on into his infant self, do you? That \ndoesn't make sense to me.\n I have to read the book again.\n 'Til then,\n ---H" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nThat's not quite feasible, because the world of Fr. Cris has \ncity-to-city monorails, human genetic engineering, and the communists \nout of power in Cuba. But for the sake of argument, let's say the \nrecipient managed to transmit the manuscript back to our G.W. without \nrevealing it to anyone else. It's still possible for the other time \ntravelers to know enough to intervene in Chris's life, if Chris's \nfather is Captain Burt2.\n\nBurt2 seems to be the mastermind behind the whole plot. If so, the \n\"betrayal\" by Lesage isn't what it appears to be. When Burt appears to \nbe dying, he is just sending himself back to the future. He knows he \nwill recover (in the year of his own birth) and he will pick up his \nshare of the gold at secure location agreed on with Lesage in advance. \nNo wonder he is smiling and confident at the last. He knows he will \nsurvive, because it was his older self who recruited him and Lesage to \ncarry out this mission in the first place. He will use the pirate gold \n(plus knowledge of the future for the next few years) to establish \nhimself as a gangster. Part of the money will go to create his \ngenetically engineered son, Chris.\n\nBurt's first name is Bram, which the appendix says is short for \nAbraham. The biblical Abraham is famous for almost offering up his \nonly son Isaac to God when God asked him to. After this test of his \nfaith, he was blessed to be the father of multitudes of descendants. \nThe New Testament takes Isaac as a type of Christ. So here we have \nBram giving up his only son to the monastery to be sent back in time \non a \"mission from God.\" Bram will have multitudes of progeny \ndescended from Chris and his children, and they may be highly \nsuccessful in investing their pirate weath given their foreknowledge \nof history.\n\nChristopher (a name meaning Christ-bearer) \"dies\" and comes back in a \nway that his bride Novia doesn't recognize at first, just like the \nearly disciples had trouble recognizing the resurrected Christ. They \nwill travel around the world, as the Church spread the Gospel.\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10812032023s5a813a5bucc735c2c2dfcff15@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T04:23:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<49374B10.6000000@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:14 PM, Henry Eissler\n wrote:\n Of course, I forgot that even Fr. Chris' time was in our future. I don't\nremember anything about city-to-city monorails, though.\n I have to read the book again.\n 'Til then,\n ---H" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty sure there is something about monorails. Fairly early in\nthe text, though I could be wrong about its location in the book.\nGiven how long such a system would take to construct, and given how\nlittle time the Cuban Commies seem to have left in the Real World, I\nbelieve there was some speculation that Chris comes from sort of\nparallel future? I don't imagine that Wolfe thinks we'll build an\nextensive monorail system before the Castros get swept into the\ndustbin of history - he's too much of an engineer and a realist.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4937CAC0.3050802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T12:19:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n take two", "in_reply_to": "<49374B10.6000000@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Henry Eissler wrote:\n Of course, I forgot that even Fr. Chris' time was in our future. I \ndon't remember anything about city-to-city monorails, though.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Near the part about temptation we were talking about, Fr. Chris said he \ncould take the monorail to New Jersey (p. 226)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " But the manuscript that Chris passed on to his 'confessor' doesn't \nreally identify the monastery. It's walking distance to Havana, but how \nunique is that?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The name of the monastery is given: Our Lady of Bethlehem (p. 58)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Still, your Bram Burt-as-mastermind theory makes me wonder. The \nAbraham reference makes sense.\n But death is death. You don't mean that he believes that his \nexperiences will be carried on into his infant self, do you? That \ndoesn't make sense to me.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In this theory I'm assuming that the same thing will happen to Burt that \nhappened to Chris: when he nearly died after the hurricane he returned \nto the time of his own birth, as an adult. If I'm right, Burt would \nreturn to modern-day Rio Hato and could get fixed up there.\n\nIt's also possible that the death scene was faked. Burt didn't let Chris \ncheck him very carefully. It's a bit too pat that Chris returned to the \nbattle scene just in time to receive Burt's dying bequest. Burt could \nhave used a safer means to return to the future after Chris left." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4937CC4F.6000506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T12:25:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n take two", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10812032023s5a813a5bucc735c2c2dfcff15@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Keeley wrote:\nI'm pretty sure there is something about monorails. Fairly early in\nthe text, though I could be wrong about its location in the book.\nGiven how long such a system would take to construct, and given how\nlittle time the Cuban Commies seem to have left in the Real World, I\nbelieve there was some speculation that Chris comes from sort of\nparallel future? I don't imagine that Wolfe thinks we'll build an\nextensive monorail system before the Castros get swept into the\ndustbin of history - he's too much of an engineer and a realist.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The first trip of Chris to the past resulted in the early invention of \nthe jib sail. Perhaps the changes brought about by Chris and his \ndescendants pushed technology along faster than in our world." } ] }, { "message_id": "<13542.67.142.130.11.1228400547.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T14:22:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n take two", "in_reply_to": "<4937CC4F.6000506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The first trip of Chris to the past resulted in the early invention of\nthe jib sail. Perhaps the changes brought about by Chris and his\ndescendants pushed technology along faster than in our world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am extremely skeptical of the jib sail being invented as late as the\nlate eighteenth century. It just pegs my BS detector.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4937FBEE.5030101@goosemoon.org>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T15:49:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n take two", "in_reply_to": "<13542.67.142.130.11.1228400547.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe first trip of Chris to the past resulted in the early invention of\nthe jib sail. Perhaps the changes brought about by Chris and his\ndescendants pushed technology along faster than in our world.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am extremely skeptical of the jib sail being invented as late as the\nlate eighteenth century. It just pegs my BS detector.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this site ( \nhttp://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/sail-sails.htm ) \nsays \"Until the jib was invented in the 18th century,...\"\n\nIt's an interesting read, with some descriptions of ship designs which \nremind me a bit of Chris's. With all the mentions of Fr. Chris looking \nup internet sites on pirates, I imagine Wolfe did a bit of the same." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812040818s573f5f06je48b3ccc34d11a10@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T16:18:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<4937FBEE.5030101@goosemoon.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that we have cleared Chris of the murder of Valentin and the other\ntime-crimes of Burt and Lesage, it's time to re-evaluate his morality. Wolfe\ninvites us to do this: \"I am not like that -- either I have never lost Him\nor I have never sought him. When you read this you can say which\" (p. 17).\n\nChris started out with plenty of original sin; he had wise-guy in his genes.\nHis father sent him to the monastery school in hopes that he would stay out\nof the gangster life (p. 58), but Chris chose to leave and lied to the abbot\nthat he would return (p. 21). He was drifting toward a life of crime, though\nhe didn't know it yet.\n\nThe trip to the past gave him a brutal taste of that life. Like the\ncharacters in \"Free Live Free,\" he got a chance to live his dreams so that\nhe could have better ones. When he got back to the present he had a chance\nto start over, and he chose the ministry.\n\nFor some reviewers like thalassocrat on the Urth\nlist,\nhis years of living amends as a priest are not enough. They want him to\ncommit temporal suicide -- to prevent young Chris from going back to be a\npirate. This would wipe out the everything, good and bad. Slaves would not\nbe freed. Novia would come to a bad end as a battered wife or a run-away\nadulteress. Chris' son would never be conceived. Young Chris would drift\ninto the life of a wise-guy, carrying out in modern dress the same sort of\ncrimes that he did in the past. This would have been throwing the miracle\nback in God's face.\n\nWhen Chris returned as Ignacio, he was prepared to be a good husband and\nfather. He chose not to leave his wife and child abandoned in the past. This\nis to his credit, whether or not it's a sin against his vows. My verdict is\nthat Chris started out bad but ended up redeemed and reformed. Yes, he\nrationalized some of the evil deeds he did as a pirate. By gangster logic he\nhad to kill Michet to maintain respect. But he did change his ways, which is\nwhat real repentance is all about." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2752.72.171.0.138.1228409980.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T16:59:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n take two", "in_reply_to": "<4937FBEE.5030101@goosemoon.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no doubt that it says that.\n\nI'll be darned.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The first trip of Chris to the past resulted in the early invention of\nthe jib sail. Perhaps the changes brought about by Chris and his\ndescendants pushed technology along faster than in our world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am extremely skeptical of the jib sail being invented as late as the\nlate eighteenth century. It just pegs my BS detector." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, this site (\nhttp://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/sail-sails.htm )\nsays \"Until the jib was invented in the 18th century,...\"\n\nIt's an interesting read, with some descriptions of ship designs which\nremind me a bit of Chris's. With all the mentions of Fr. Chris looking\nup internet sites on pirates, I imagine Wolfe did a bit of the same.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812041451g7b466095m6fceda310b2937be@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T22:51:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<2752.72.171.0.138.1228409980.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here are more \"Burtisms\" -- anachronistic and heavily British-slangy. He's\nalmost as over-the-top as King Kanoa in \"An Evil Guest\" (by the way, I also\nthink Kanoa is faking his speech patterns to disarm suspicions -- he's\nclearly on the side of the Storm King).\n\n\"Gentleman\" (p. 55) without meaning someone with noble birth or property:\n1700's.\n\"You twig?\" (p. 55): 1800's.\n\"Surefire\": American, 1900's.\n\"Set her cap\" (p. 57): 18th century.\n\"Chap\" (p. 136) meaning \"man\": 1700's.\n\"Awfully\" as an intensive without any connotation of dread or awe (p. 257):\n1800's.\n\"The lay of the land\" (p. 258): 1800's.\n\"Flash\" (p. 258): 1800's.\n\"Make book\" (p. 260): 1800's.\n\"A spot more wine\" (p. 261): 1800's.\n\"Keep your chin up\" (p. 267): American slang from the 1930's.\n\nEnding sentences with the interrogative particle, \"eh?\" is probably\nanachronistic, too." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370812041515s34e0a7a9hf83b333589e49fcf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T23:15:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812041451g7b466095m6fceda310b2937be@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nHere are more \"Burtisms\" -- anachronistic and heavily British-slangy. He's\nalmost as over-the-top as King Kanoa in \"An Evil Guest\" (by the way, I also\nthink Kanoa is faking his speech patterns to disarm suspicions -- he's\nclearly on the side of the Storm King).\n\n\"Gentleman\" (p. 55) without meaning someone with noble birth or property:\n1700's.\n\"You twig?\" (p. 55): 1800's.\n\"Surefire\": American, 1900's.\n\"Set her cap\" (p. 57): 18th century.\n\"Chap\" (p. 136) meaning \"man\": 1700's.\n\"Awfully\" as an intensive without any connotation of dread or awe (p. 257):\n1800's.\n\"The lay of the land\" (p. 258): 1800's.\n\"Flash\" (p. 258): 1800's.\n\"Make book\" (p. 260): 1800's.\n\"A spot more wine\" (p. 261): 1800's.\n\"Keep your chin up\" (p. 267): American slang from the 1930's.\n\nEnding sentences with the interrogative particle, \"eh?\" is probably\nanachronistic, too.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T20:15:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n\ttake two", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812040818s573f5f06je48b3ccc34d11a10@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nWhen Chris returned as Ignacio, he was prepared to be a good husband and\nfather. He chose not to leave his wife and child abandoned in the past. This\nis to his credit, whether or not it's a sin against his vows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His wife was dead long before he took vows. What is the moral\nsituation of a man who, as in _My Favorite Wife_, thinks his wife is\ndead and commits himself to another?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493A083A.4050103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T05:06:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"Goodbye Old Buddy\" -- Pirate Freedom murder mystery,\n take two", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew King wrote:\nHis wife was dead long before he took vows. What is the moral\nsituation of a man who, as in _My Favorite Wife_, thinks his wife is\ndead and commits himself to another?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're right. At the time Chris took his vows he probably had no \nidea he would ever get back to the time when his wife was alive. It was \nonly one day when he looked in the mirror and saw Ignacio that he \nrealized a second miracle was available." } ] } ] }