A new mystery ...

Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a great height inside the sailship? And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume this must be. And did the first Severian also take over this body? Dave ---

David Stockhoff wrote: Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a great height inside the sailship?

And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume this must be.

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote: Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a great height inside the sailship? And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume this must be. And did the first Severian also take over this body? Dave ---

This is something that confuses me. having just read that part. My friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point. But I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later? He's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body. Perhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull in Gyoll is that. Although,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself from without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that could probably account for all of them. No? ~witz _______________________________________________

Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below mentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before, with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together by the 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric reading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun, he is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the Concilitor. So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc etc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so brilliant in so many ways. On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote:

Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a great height inside the sailship? And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume this must be. And did the first Severian also take over this body? Dave ---

This is something that confuses me. having just read that part. My friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point. But I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later? He's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body. Perhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull in Gyoll is that. Although,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself from without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that could probably account for all of them. No? ~witz _______________________________________________

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote: Hey Friend. Eidolon or Aquastor, I'm not sure I know the difference. One interesting aspect of this is the question of where does consciousness lie? Severian was able to absorb the consciousness by eating flesh with pharamacon. But his consciousness moves on despite his various deaths. I suppose the Aquastor idea covers that. But I wonder if this is an example of our question as to whether Severian is Divine or not. If he is, surely his consciousness is not limited to his body. There's also another switchup like this with the Severian that is Apu Punchau, right? I'm re-reading Urth now, so maybe I'm jumping the gun here. ~witz

Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below mentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before, with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together by the 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric reading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun, he is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the Concilitor. So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc etc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so brilliant in so many ways. On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:

Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a great height inside the sailship? And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume this must be. And did the first Severian also take over this body? Dave ---

This is something that confuses me. having just read that part. My friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point. But I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later? He's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body. Perhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull in Gyoll is that. Although,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself from without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that could probably account for all of them. No? ~witz _______________________________________________

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote: Hey Friend. Eidolon or Aquastor, I'm not sure I know the difference. One interesting aspect of this is the question of where does consciousness lie? Severian was able to absorb the consciousness by eating flesh with pharamacon. But his consciousness moves on despite his various deaths. I suppose the Aquastor idea covers that. But I wonder if this is an example of our question as to whether Severian is Divine or not. If he is, surely his consciousness is not limited to his body. There's also another switchup like this with the Severian that is Apu Punchau, right? I'm re-reading Urth now, so maybe I'm jumping the gun here. ~witz

Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below mentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before, with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together by the 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric reading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun, he is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the Concilitor. So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc etc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so brilliant in so many ways. On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:

Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a great height inside the sailship? And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume this must be. And did the first Severian also take over this body? Dave ---

This is something that confuses me. having just read that part. My friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point. But I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later? He's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body. Perhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull in Gyoll is that. Although,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself from without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that could probably account for all of them. No? ~witz _______________________________________________

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote: The etymology of these words shall help. Eidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract reality of an idea. For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the perfect instantiations of a given idea that all particular instances of are imperfect emanations. Aquastor comes from Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone. So an Eidolon is a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of ideals/Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor would be a created being formed of pure thought (intention). It's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of Thecla's memory and personality, but not her consciousness itself. While these things may be in some way linked to the brain, the sense of identity, the self-consciousness and transcendental unity of apperception, is not, and thus, Severian-as-intentional-being never experiences a disconnect between his death(s) and rebirth(s). Lane On T

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com> wrote: Lane, Fabulous stuff. Indeed, the etymology of those terms now seems extremely important. It is easy to say now that resurrected Severian is an Eidolon, and that this happens to him in the perfect place in the myth. And your point about Thecla is taken to heart as well. On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote:

The etymology of these words shall help. Eidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract reality of an idea. For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the perfect instantiations of a given idea that all particular instances of are imperfect emanations. Aquastor comes from Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone. So an Eidolon is a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of ideals/Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor would be a created being formed of pure thought (intention). It's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of Thecla's memory and personality, but not her consciousness itself. While these things may be in some way linked to the brain, the sense of identity, the self-consciousness and transcendental unity of apperception, is not, and thus, Severian-as-intentional-being never experiences a disconnect between his death(s) and rebirth(s). Lane On T

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------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:59:13 -0600 From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> Subject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ... To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <00ca01c954c0$d890ebc0$2acd4a0c at rclackey> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" David Stockhoff wrote:

Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a great height inside the sailship?

It was a new aquastor body made by the Hierogrammates.

And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume this must be.

No. The first four books were written by the body that became autarch. The fifth book was written by the body created by the Hierodules B, F, & O in Apu's tomb, in the fifth book. -Roy ------------------------------

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:38 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote: Thanks, Roy. Got to ponder that a while ... The intervention of B+O+F occurs in chapter L; Severian falls and dies in chapter IX. But I can see how it could be. The text says only "The old Autarch, who lived in my mind but seldom spoke, muttered through my swollen lips. "Find another... A dozen panting breaths had passed before I understood what he had told us: that it was time to surrender this body to death, time for us---time for Severian and Thecla, time for himself and all the rest who stood in his shadow---to take a step toward the shadows ourselves. Time for us to find someone else." Then Severian has his new body, although it is burned and has broken teeth. He's wearing velvet, which presumably belongs to the Autarch. It's as though he didn't die at all, and didn't inhabit a new body. But an aquastor might behave that way. At any rate, the aquastor looked different from Severian, and Valeria recognizes him as ... the Conciliator? ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:59:13 -0600 From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> <rclackey at stic.net> Subject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ... To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> <urth at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <00ca01c954c0$d890ebc0$2acd4a0c at rclackey> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" David Stockhoff wrote: > Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a> great height inside the sailship? It was a new aquastor body made by the Hierogrammates. > And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume> this must be. No. The first four books were written by the body that became autarch. The fifth book was written by the body created by the Hierodules B, F, & O in Apu's tomb, in the fifth book. -Roy ------------------------------ ------------------------------ avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/>: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 081202-0, 12/02/2008 Tested on: 12/2/2008 7:38:32 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. _______________________________________________

David Stockhoff wrote: I found the relevant passage: "But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on Tzadkiel's ship?" Nearly whispering, Famulimus sang, "The man whom you saw dead your mother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would weep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still living here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your mind and you anew."

On Dec 2, 2008, at 7:30 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: I found the relevant passage: "But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on Tzadkiel's ship?" Nearly whispering, Famulimus sang, "The man whom you saw dead your mother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would weep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still living here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your mind and you anew."

On Dec 2, 2008, at 4:11 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:

The etymology of these words shall help. Eidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract reality of an idea. For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the perfect instantiations of a given idea that all particular instances of are imperfect emanations. Aquastor comes from Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone. So an Eidolon is a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of ideals/ Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor would be a created being formed of pure thought (intention). It's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of Thecla's memory and personality, but not her consciousness itself. While these things may be in some way linked to the brain, the sense of identity, the self-consciousness and transcendental unity of apperception, is not, and thus, Severian-as-intentional-being never experiences a disconnect between his death(s) and rebirth(s).

On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote: Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below mentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before, with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together by the 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric reading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun, he is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the Concilitor. So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc etc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so brilliant in so many ways.

On Dec 2, 2008, at 9:20 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: David Stockhoff wrote:

I found the relevant passage: "But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on Tzadkiel's ship?" Nearly whispering, Famulimus sang, "The man whom you saw dead your mother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would weep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still living here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your mind and you anew."

Yes, which is why I said what I said. Tzadkiel is the Hierogrammate who created the new body on the Ship. There were two bodies on the Ship. The dead one had written the first four books. The new aquastor body Tzadkiel made went on to become the Conciliator and Apu. After Apu got older and was strangled, B, F & O created a new body in the tomb, which is why there were two bodies in that tomb. The newly created body went on to write the fifth book. The dead Apu also came back to life when the first faint light of the white fountain reached Urth that night Sev fled the tomb, but that's another issue. Btw, aquastor and eidolon are interchangeable in the Urth Cycle. The former is the more formal term, the latter is the common, just as Increate is the learned term for what the less educated call God. -Roy _______________________________________________

On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote: So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc etc.

On Dec 2, 2008, at 9:52 PM, Son of Witz wrote: On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:

So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc etc.

ha ha. so, he created the Conciliator myth himself, the arrogant bastard. did he do it because he felt it had to be done, or could he not resist being Shaman

Son of Witz wrote: Roy, that helps me so much. thank you. I got a whiff of the Author of V when he mentioned the bower "but I will write for a little while more before I go to my bower to sleep: " bower a pleasant shady place under trees or climbing plants in a garden or wood. lazy summer days on Ushas, writing in the grotto

In the Christian mythos, Jesus died

to save the world, so to speak, even if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos, in that he was resurrected.

Sure, Severian died a few times and was resurrected, one way or the other, and as the Conciliator he brought about the renewal of Urth as Ushas. But the people of Urth had to die while Severian lived, as a petty god, sitting on the beach writing his memoirs and watching the girls go by. It just ain't the same.

Severian I (clawless) gained the phoenix throne, but did he become the New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him so that he has the character to pass the Trial. I guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm wondering if they just saw the potential.

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:43 AM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: I don't want to dredge up the tired comparisons of Severian to Jesus or Christ to the Conciliator again. But I can't resist something I've pointed out before, something that seems to me to quash the whole notion. In the Christian mythos, Jesus died to save the world, so to speak, even if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos, in that he was resurrected. Sure, Severian died a few times and was resurrected, one way or the other, and as the Conciliator he brought about the renewal of Urth as Ushas. But the people of Urth had to die while Severian lived, as a petty god, sitting on the beach writing his memoirs and watching the girls go by. It just ain't the same.

_______________________________________________

Severian I (clawless) gained the phoenix throne, but did he become the New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him so that he has the character to pass the Trial. I guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm wondering if they just saw the potential.

I apologize, but I think I've missed something. What is the "potential" that was seen? While I personally perceive Severian as being unique and pretty wonderful (I'm in love with and have worn out my first copies of The Wizard Knight), I also can't help but feel that he "passed" because it was time for the New Sun much as, to overtly steal from Marcus Aurelius, grapevines produce grapes when it is the time of year for them to produce grapes. I would be interested in responses. Thanks for reading. Bob

------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:20:24 -0600 From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> Subject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ... To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <007001c95506$dc79bbe0$50cd4a0c at rclackey> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" David Stockhoff wrote:

I found the relevant passage: "But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on Tzadkiel's ship?" Nearly whispering, Famulimus sang, "The man whom you saw dead your mother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would weep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still living here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your mind and you anew."

Yes, which is why I said what I said. Tzadkiel is the Hierogrammate who created the new body on the Ship. There were two bodies on the Ship. The dead one had written the first four books. The new aquastor body Tzadkiel made went on to become the Conciliator and Apu. After Apu got older and was strangled, B, F & O created a new body in the tomb, which is why there were two bodies in that tomb. The newly created body went on to write the fifth book. The dead Apu also came back to life when the first faint light of the white fountain reached Urth that night Sev fled the tomb, but that's another issue. Btw, aquastor and eidolon are interchangeable in the Urth Cycle. The former is the more formal term, the latter is the common, just as Increate is the learned term for what the less educated call God. -Roy ------------------------------

-Roy

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote: It just ain't the same.

-Roy

Hey Roy, no argument that they're not the same stories. I'll spare you my nuance to that though, I think I've typed about it enough for now. Regarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes. I'm not sure this reading is necessary. No one else finds that dead Severian. Gunnie says Zak found him, and since Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body. BUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the other injuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, EXCEPT the compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in agony. Why would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others not? why the pain? Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the Form Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body is fixed. a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. He sees Tzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft with the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true. but the idea leads me to some other questions I'll compartmentalize in another post. ~witz _______________________________________________

------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:46:57 +0000 From: "Son of Witz" <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> Subject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ... To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <W22586201365751228322817 at webmail29> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Severian I (clawless) gained the phoenix throne, but did he become the New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him so that he has the character to pass the Trial. I guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm wondering if they just saw the potential.

I apologize, but I think I've missed something. What is the "potential" that was seen? While I personally perceive Severian as being unique and pretty wonderful (I'm in love with and have worn out my first copies of The Wizard Knight), I also can't help but feel that he "passed" because it was time for the New Sun much as, to overtly steal from Marcus Aurelius, grapevines produce grapes when it is the time of year for them to produce grapes. I would be interested in responses. Thanks for reading. Bob

The "potential" was that he would pass the test. It seems the Heiro-dudes seem to think he 'could' fail. according the Ash, there is still quite some time before the sun dies and the last glaciation occurs. I suppose the spirit of you question is right though. it was time for the New Sun. I'm hazy on all this, but didn't the Jews think it was gettin' 'bout time for a Messiah 'round the time Jesus entered the picture. It could perhaps be that the New Sun was waiting for a worthy host. dunnoh. ~witz ------------------------------

Witz--- Supposedly, there is a Jewish tradition that each generation has its potential messiah. But usually that messiah fails. (I'm not sure what's supposed to happen if he succeeds, except that the Temple is rebuilt.) This would fit neatly with the progression of autarchs who failed to become the Conciliator. See Michael Chabon's Yiddish Policemen's Union and an episode of Millenium, and no doubt many other silly conspiracy tales. Or ask your rebbe. ;) David

Roy C. Lackey wrote: In the Christian mythos, Jesus died to save the world, so to speak, even if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos, in that he was resurrected.

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote: Roy C. Lackey wrote:

In the Christian mythos, Jesus died to save the world, so to speak, even if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos, in that he was resurrected.

What about Lazarus, et al?

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote: On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote:

Roy C. Lackey wrote:

In the Christian mythos, Jesus died to save the world, so to speak, even if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos, in that he was resurrected.

What about Lazarus, et al?

And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does it himself.

Matthew King wrote: On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote:

Roy C. Lackey wrote:

In the Christian mythos, Jesus died to save the world, so to speak, even if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos, in that he was resurrected.

What about Lazarus, et al?

And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does it himself.

Not to mention the imperishable body.

Son of Witz wrote: Regarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes. I'm not sure this reading is necessary. No one else finds that dead Severian. Gunnie says Zak found him, and since Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body.<<

BUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the other injuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, EXCEPT the compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in agony.

Why would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others not? why the pain?<<

Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the Form Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body is fixed. a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. He sees Tzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft with the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true.<<

On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:05 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: Son of Witz wrote:

Regarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes. I'm not sure this reading is necessary. No one else finds that dead Severian. Gunnie says Zak found him, and since Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body.<<

Zak is just a splintered-off piece of Tzadkiel, like the tiny Tzadkiel beside the Brook who didn't know Severian's history because she was cut off from the main entity. Zak started out as a fur-ball, then evolved through stages over time on the Ship, to eventually become the false Epitome. It probably wasn't Zak who made Sev the new body. At any rate, it is a textual given (URTH, chapter L) that Sev got a new aquastor body on the Ship from Tzadkiel that, over time, became solid. Tzadkiel, the mighty Hierogrammate, did not have the ability to simply raise the dead that Sev had. (ibid.)

BUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the other injuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, EXCEPT the compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in agony.

Why would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others not? why the pain?<<

The pain came with the injuries, and it would have seemed mighty queer to Gunnie and Sidero and the others if Sev had survived that fall unscathed. The injuries made his survival at least plausible. Besides, I don't think Tzadkiel wanted Sev to know then (maybe ever) that he had died and was just an aquastor. I don't know where the dead body went.

Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the Form Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body is fixed. a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence.

He sees Tzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft with the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true.<< The mind, for want of a better term, of an aquastor comes from the memories of another entity. "You were reflected thought in your dead mind. He [Tzadkiel] fixed the image, made it whole, mended the fatal wound [compound fracture?] you'd borne." (ibid.) Severian died on that Ship and got another body. Just after the above quote is when Sev complained to Hierodules BF&O: "Why couldn't Tzadkiel have called me back as I called back Zama? Healed me as I healed Herena? Why did I have to die?" An aquastor was the only way Tzadkiel could bring Sev back from death. -Roy _______________________________________________

Dan'l quoted and wrote: On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote:

Roy C. Lackey wrote:

In the Christian mythos, Jesus died to save the world, so to speak, even if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos, in that he was resurrected.

What about Lazarus, et al?

And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does it himself.

Son of Witz wrote: Do you see any symbolic necessity for this death? I find the Lesson suggestion I made still compelling. but it hangs on wether or not the winged creature he shoots in the airshaft is Tzadkiel or not. If it's just an apport, then I'm not so sure.

On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:59 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: Son of Witz wrote:

Do you see any symbolic necessity for this death? I find the Lesson suggestion I made still compelling. but it hangs on wether or not the winged creature he shoots in the airshaft is Tzadkiel or not. If it's just an apport, then I'm not so sure.

I don't think the creature was Tzadkiel. Why kill Sev, just to bring him back on the sly? I have always thought that the winged creature was another assassination attempt by the forces opposed to the coming of a new sun, a creature akin to the notule that attacked Sev and Jonas. FWIW. -Roy

Do you see any symbolic necessity for this death?

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:51 PM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote: And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does it himself.

Not to mention the imperishable body.

Is the imperishable attribute scriptural?