{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5257", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5257, "subject": "A new mystery ...", "messages": 38, "voices": 11, "first": "2008-12-02T20:39:23+00:00", "last": "2008-12-04T22:42:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<49359CFB.3030908@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-02T20:39:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At least it is to me.\n\nDoes anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a \ngreat height inside the sailship?\n\nAnd is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume \nthis must be.\n\nAnd did the first Severian also take over this body?\n\nDave" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-02T20:56:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<49359CFB.3030908@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a \ngreat height inside the sailship?\n\nAnd is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume \nthis must be.\n\nAnd did the first Severian also take over this body?\n\nDave\n\n\n---" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is something that confuses me. having just read that part.\nMy friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point.\nBut I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later?\nHe's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body. Perhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull in Gyoll is that.\n\nAlthough,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself from without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that could probably account for all of them. No?\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00ca01c954c0$d890ebc0$2acd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-02T20:59:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<49359CFB.3030908@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nDoes anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a\ngreat height inside the sailship?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was a new aquastor body made by the Hierogrammates." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume\nthis must be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. The first four books were written by the body that became autarch. The\nfifth book was written by the body created by the Hierodules B, F, & O in\nApu's tomb, in the fifth book.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812021546j252c0684w109e7152e4a4c2fe@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-02T23:46:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below\nmentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make\nSeverian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before,\nwith my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together by\nthe 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric\nreading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun,\nhe is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the\nConcilitor.\n\nSo, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge\nimpact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian\nresurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently\ninfluence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc\netc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so brilliant\nin so many ways." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nDoes anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a\ngreat height inside the sailship?\n\nAnd is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume\nthis must be.\n\nAnd did the first Severian also take over this body?\n\nDave\n\n\n---" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is something that confuses me. having just read that part.\nMy friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point.\nBut I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of\nShadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later?\nHe's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body.\nPerhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon\nreading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull\nin Gyoll is that.\n\nAlthough,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience\nwhen he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other\ninstances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself\nfrom without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that\ncould probably account for all of them. No?\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T00:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812021546j252c0684w109e7152e4a4c2fe@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey Friend.\n\nEidolon or Aquastor, I'm not sure I know the difference.\n\nOne interesting aspect of this is the question of where does consciousness lie? Severian was able to absorb the consciousness by eating flesh with pharamacon. But his consciousness moves on despite his various deaths. I suppose the Aquastor idea covers that. But I wonder if this is an example of our question as to whether Severian is Divine or not. If he is, surely his consciousness is not limited to his body.\n\nThere's also another switchup like this with the Severian that is Apu Punchau, right?\n\nI'm re-reading Urth now, so maybe I'm jumping the gun here.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below\nmentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make\nSeverian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before,\nwith my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together by\nthe 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric\nreading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun,\nhe is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the\nConcilitor.\n\nSo, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge\nimpact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian\nresurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently\ninfluence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc\netc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so brilliant\nin so many ways.\n\nOn Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a\ngreat height inside the sailship?\n\nAnd is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume\nthis must be.\n\nAnd did the first Severian also take over this body?\n\nDave\n\n\n---" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is something that confuses me. having just read that part.\nMy friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point.\nBut I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of\nShadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later?\nHe's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body.\nPerhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon\nreading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull\nin Gyoll is that.\n\nAlthough,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience\nwhen he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other\ninstances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself\nfrom without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that\ncould probably account for all of them. No?\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812021609q370b7b95wc389ccac97445ca2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T00:09:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Lexicon conflates the two, so I don't know if there is a difference\neither.\n\nThe question of consciousness is a good one. I wish I could find that part\nwhere Severian ponders this question, asking if a man is contained, in\nwhole, in each part of his body.\n\nI think Aquastor/Eidolon Severian is kept alive by the mind of God, however\none wants to look at this. We know that Aquastor/Eidolon's are kept going\nby the 'Thinking Machines', but what thinking machine would be powerful\nenough to follow Severian around through time to keep him going? To me, he\nis being kept alive in the mind of God. And not only is HE being kept\nalive, but all of the other beings inside of him (Thecla and the past\nAutarchs). I'm just rereading Urth, and will have to keep this one in mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nHey Friend.\n\nEidolon or Aquastor, I'm not sure I know the difference.\n\nOne interesting aspect of this is the question of where does consciousness\nlie? Severian was able to absorb the consciousness by eating flesh with\npharamacon. But his consciousness moves on despite his various deaths. I\nsuppose the Aquastor idea covers that. But I wonder if this is an example of\nour question as to whether Severian is Divine or not. If he is, surely his\nconsciousness is not limited to his body.\n\nThere's also another switchup like this with the Severian that is Apu\nPunchau, right?\n\nI'm re-reading Urth now, so maybe I'm jumping the gun here.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below\nmentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make\nSeverian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before,\nwith my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together\nby\nthe 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric\nreading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun,\nhe is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the\nConcilitor.\n\nSo, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge\nimpact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian\nresurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently\ninfluence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc\netc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so\nbrilliant\nin so many ways.\n\nOn Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz ", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T00:11:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The etymology of these words shall help.\n\nEidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract reality of an\nidea. For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the perfect instantiations\nof a given idea that all particular instances of are imperfect emanations.\nAquastor comes from Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone. So an\nEidolon is a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of\nideals/Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor would\nbe a created being formed of pure thought (intention).\n\nIt's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of Thecla's\nmemory and personality, but not her consciousness itself. While these\nthings may be in some way linked to the brain, the sense of identity, the\nself-consciousness and transcendental unity of apperception, is not, and\nthus, Severian-as-intentional-being never experiences a disconnect between\nhis death(s) and rebirth(s).\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nHey Friend.\n\nEidolon or Aquastor, I'm not sure I know the difference.\n\nOne interesting aspect of this is the question of where does consciousness\nlie? Severian was able to absorb the consciousness by eating flesh with\npharamacon. But his consciousness moves on despite his various deaths. I\nsuppose the Aquastor idea covers that. But I wonder if this is an example of\nour question as to whether Severian is Divine or not. If he is, surely his\nconsciousness is not limited to his body.\n\nThere's also another switchup like this with the Severian that is Apu\nPunchau, right?\n\nI'm re-reading Urth now, so maybe I'm jumping the gun here.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below\nmentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make\nSeverian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before,\nwith my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together\nby\nthe 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric\nreading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun,\nhe is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the\nConcilitor.\n\nSo, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge\nimpact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian\nresurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently\ninfluence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc\netc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so\nbrilliant\nin so many ways.\n\nOn Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz ", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T00:16:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<272706220812021611i445cbfe4tdf83390b84095b12@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lane,\nFabulous stuff. Indeed, the etymology of those terms now seems extremely\nimportant. It is easy to say now that resurrected Severian is an Eidolon,\nand that this happens to him in the perfect place in the myth.\n\nAnd your point about Thecla is taken to heart as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nThe etymology of these words shall help.\n\nEidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract reality of an\nidea. For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the perfect instantiations\nof a given idea that all particular instances of are imperfect emanations.\nAquastor comes from Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone. So an\nEidolon is a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of\nideals/Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor would\nbe a created being formed of pure thought (intention).\n\nIt's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of Thecla's\nmemory and personality, but not her consciousness itself. While these\nthings may be in some way linked to the brain, the sense of identity, the\nself-consciousness and transcendental unity of apperception, is not, and\nthus, Severian-as-intentional-being never experiences a disconnect between\nhis death(s) and rebirth(s).\n\nLane\n\n\n\n\nOn T" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220812021619r23fb21e0v3ddea95ddc00c6c3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T00:19:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812021616v62f70a0bg76f02268c29d4abf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The areas of my expertise are limited to law and philosophy. ;) So I've just\nabout reached the limit of my depth. And my specialization isn't in ancient\nGreek philosophy, so I can't tell you all that much about aquastors or\nParacelsus, but Platonic idealism I can. At the very least, the way I read\nWolfe was using Plato is more how Plato was received by the Gnostics and\nNeoplatonists, who had a decidedly more systematic and mystic bent to their\nPlatonism than what I guess we could call \"orthodox\" Platonism.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nLane,\nFabulous stuff. Indeed, the etymology of those terms now seems extremely\nimportant. It is easy to say now that resurrected Severian is an Eidolon,\nand that this happens to him in the perfect place in the myth.\n\nAnd your point about Thecla is taken to heart as well.\n\n\nOn Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The etymology of these words shall help.\n\nEidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract reality of an\nidea. For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the perfect instantiations\nof a given idea that all particular instances of are imperfect emanations.\nAquastor comes from Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone. So an\nEidolon is a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of\nideals/Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor would\nbe a created being formed of pure thought (intention).\n\nIt's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of Thecla's\nmemory and personality, but not her consciousness itself. While these\nthings may be in some way linked to the brain, the sense of identity, the\nself-consciousness and transcendental unity of apperception, is not, and\nthus, Severian-as-intentional-being never experiences a disconnect between\nhis death(s) and rebirth(s).\n\nLane\n\n\n\n\nOn T" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4935D506.7090600@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-03T00:38:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<272706220812021619r23fb21e0v3ddea95ddc00c6c3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, Roy. Got to ponder that a while ...\n\nThe intervention of B+O+F occurs in chapter L; Severian falls and dies in chapter IX.\n\nBut I can see how it could be. The text says only\n\n\"The old Autarch, who lived in my mind but seldom spoke, muttered through my swollen lips. \"Find another... \nA dozen panting breaths had passed before I understood what he had told us: that it was time to surrender this body to death, time for us---time for Severian and Thecla, time for himself and all the rest who stood in his shadow---to take a step toward the shadows ourselves. Time for us to find someone else.\"\n\nThen Severian has his new body, although it is burned and has broken teeth. He's wearing velvet, which presumably belongs to the Autarch. It's as though he didn't die at all, and didn't inhabit a new body. But an aquastor might behave that way.\n\nAt any rate, the aquastor looked different from Severian, and Valeria recognizes him as ... the Conciliator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:59:13 -0600\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <00ca01c954c0$d890ebc0$2acd4a0c at rclackey>\nContent-Type: text/plain;\tcharset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a\ngreat height inside the sailship?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nIt was a new aquastor body made by the Hierogrammates." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume\nthis must be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nNo. The first four books were written by the body that became autarch. The\nfifth book was written by the body created by the Hierodules B, F, & O in\nApu's tomb, in the fifth book.\n\n-Roy\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220812021645vbbd0b50n8680a7387c72c931@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T00:45:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<4935D506.7090600@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't the Autarch have a vial of alzabo around his neck at all times?\nWasn't that how Severian became the Autarch when they were shot down?\n\nI would assume that Sev-as-Autarch had the same thing, and whatever poor\nstar sailor fell with him (or perhaps might have even been down there\nalready, the victim of some other fight) suddenly got a mouthful of alzabo\nand Sev's flesh?\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThanks, Roy. Got to ponder that a while ...\n\nThe intervention of B+O+F occurs in chapter L; Severian falls and dies in chapter IX.\n\nBut I can see how it could be. The text says only\n\n\"The old Autarch, who lived in my mind but seldom spoke, muttered through my swollen lips. \"Find another...\nA dozen panting breaths had passed before I understood what he had told us: that it was time to surrender this body to death, time for us---time for Severian and Thecla, time for himself and all the rest who stood in his shadow---to take a step toward the shadows ourselves. Time for us to find someone else.\"\n\nThen Severian has his new body, although it is burned and has broken teeth. He's wearing velvet, which presumably belongs to the Autarch. It's as though he didn't die at all, and didn't inhabit a new body. But an aquastor might behave that way.\n\nAt any rate, the aquastor looked different from Severian, and Valeria recognizes him as ... the Conciliator?\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:59:13 -0600\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <00ca01c954c0$d890ebc0$2acd4a0c at rclackey>\nContent-Type: text/plain;\tcharset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\n\n > Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a> great height inside the sailship?\n\n\nIt was a new aquastor body made by the Hierogrammates.\n\n\n > And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume> this must be.\n\n\nNo. The first four books were written by the body that became autarch. The\nfifth book was written by the body created by the Hierodules B, F, & O in\nApu's tomb, in the fifth book.\n\n-Roy\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n ------------------------------\n\navast! Antivirus : Outbound message clean.\n\nVirus Database (VPS): 081202-0, 12/02/2008\nTested on: 12/2/2008 7:38:32 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4935FD49.8020205@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-03T03:30:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<272706220812021645vbbd0b50n8680a7387c72c931@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I found the relevant passage:\n\n\"But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on Tzadkiel's \nship?\"\nNearly whispering, Famulimus sang, \"The man whom you saw dead your \nmother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would \nweep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still living \nhere. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel \naccomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your \nmind and you anew.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<007001c95506$dc79bbe0$50cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-03T05:20:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<4935FD49.8020205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nI found the relevant passage:\n\n\"But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on Tzadkiel's\nship?\"\nNearly whispering, Famulimus sang, \"The man whom you saw dead your\nmother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would\nweep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still living\nhere. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel\naccomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your\nmind and you anew.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, which is why I said what I said. Tzadkiel is the Hierogrammate who\ncreated the new body on the Ship. There were two bodies on the Ship. The\ndead one had written the first four books. The new aquastor body Tzadkiel\nmade went on to become the Conciliator and Apu. After Apu got older and was\nstrangled, B, F & O created a new body in the tomb, which is why there were\ntwo bodies in that tomb. The newly created body went on to write the fifth\nbook. The dead Apu also came back to life when the first faint light of the\nwhite fountain reached Urth that night Sev fled the tomb, but that's another\nissue.\n\nBtw, aquastor and eidolon are interchangeable in the Urth Cycle. The former\nis the more formal term, the latter is the common, just as Increate is the\nlearned term for what the less educated call God.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T05:35:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<4935FD49.8020205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 2, 2008, at 7:30 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI found the relevant passage:\n\n\"But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on \nTzadkiel's ship?\"\nNearly whispering, Famulimus sang, \"The man whom you saw dead your \nmother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would \nweep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still \nliving here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel \naccomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build \nyour mind and you anew.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 2, 2008, at 4:11 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The etymology of these words shall help.\n\nEidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract \nreality of an idea. For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the \nperfect instantiations of a given idea that all particular \ninstances of are imperfect emanations. Aquastor comes from \nParacelsus, an entity formed from thought alone. So an Eidolon is \na projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of ideals/ \nYesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor \nwould be a created being formed of pure thought (intention).\n\nIt's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of \nThecla's memory and personality, but not her consciousness itself. \nWhile these things may be in some way linked to the brain, the \nsense of identity, the self-consciousness and transcendental unity \nof apperception, is not, and thus, Severian-as-intentional-being \nnever experiences a disconnect between his death(s) and rebirth(s)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I enjoy the hair-splitting confusion here, re Eidolon/Aquastor\nmy basic reading of the above quote would make him Aquastor.\nEidolon would be the mold any instance, right? the blueprint.\n\nwhat do y'all think about the multiple deaths? is there a canonical \nlist?\nsecond time through BotNS proper, I felt he died a good few times. not \nreally sure though.\ni mean, \"Is He Dead?\"\nhe was for a bit there, right? but no body left behind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nWell, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below \nmentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would \nmake Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have \nbeen before, with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle \nbody', held together by the 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are \nmeant to reflect my metaphoric reading. Sort of like Christ after \nthe crucifiction. So, as the New Sun, he is really a 'new \nSeverian', which is the Severian who becomes the Concilitor.\n\nSo, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a \nhuge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon \nSeverian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who \nwill subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to \nbecome Eidolon Severian etc etc. This time loop aspect is so damned \nattractive to me, and so brilliant in so many ways." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yowza\n\nthat we're just players in God's dream seems REAL enough to me. fun to \nsee it played out like this.\ntack on ghost story to the genreBended list," } ] }, { "message_id": "<6168A896-3E7C-4C88-833C-34AB4780F023@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T05:42:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<007001c95506$dc79bbe0$50cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy,\nthat helps me so much. thank you.\n\nI got a whiff of the Author of V when he mentioned the bower\n\n\"but I will write for a little while more before I go to my bower to \nsleep: \"\n\nbower a pleasant shady place under trees or climbing plants in a \ngarden or wood.\n\nlazy summer days on Ushas, writing in the grotto\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 2, 2008, at 9:20 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I found the relevant passage:\n\n\"But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on \nTzadkiel's\nship?\"\nNearly whispering, Famulimus sang, \"The man whom you saw dead your\nmother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would\nweep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still \nliving\nhere. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel\naccomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build \nyour\nmind and you anew.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, which is why I said what I said. Tzadkiel is the Hierogrammate \nwho\ncreated the new body on the Ship. There were two bodies on the Ship. \nThe\ndead one had written the first four books. The new aquastor body \nTzadkiel\nmade went on to become the Conciliator and Apu. After Apu got older \nand was\nstrangled, B, F & O created a new body in the tomb, which is why \nthere were\ntwo bodies in that tomb. The newly created body went on to write the \nfifth\nbook. The dead Apu also came back to life when the first faint light \nof the\nwhite fountain reached Urth that night Sev fled the tomb, but that's \nanother\nissue.\n\nBtw, aquastor and eidolon are interchangeable in the Urth Cycle. The \nformer\nis the more formal term, the latter is the common, just as Increate \nis the\nlearned term for what the less educated call God.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2786A65F-B337-4D39-8FA7-A960FB4902C2@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T05:52:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812021546j252c0684w109e7152e4a4c2fe@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nSo, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a \nhuge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon \nSeverian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who \nwill subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to \nbecome Eidolon Severian etc etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ha ha.\n\nso, he created the Conciliator myth himself, the arrogant bastard.\ndid he do it because he felt it had to be done, or could he not resist \nbeing Shaman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15EC7ACB-74FD-4959-97DC-462881913FC2@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T06:41:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<2786A65F-B337-4D39-8FA7-A960FB4902C2@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 2, 2008, at 9:52 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nOn Dec 2, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a \nhuge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon \nSeverian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who \nwill subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to \nbecome Eidolon Severian etc etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ha ha.\n\nso, he created the Conciliator myth himself, the arrogant bastard.\ndid he do it because he felt it had to be done, or could he not \nresist being Shaman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "wait a minute.\n\nare we conflating the Severian Apu Punchau & The Sleeper God of Ushas \nwith the Not Necessarily Severian Conciliator.\nI've thought that since he is the Conciliator Come Again that he was \nthe Conciliator of the myth. but maybe it existed before Severian I\n\nSeverian I (clawless) gained the phoenix throne, but did he become \nthe New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him \nso that he has the character to pass the Trial.\nI guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm \nwondering if they just saw the potential.\n\n????\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001e01c9552b$a5cd0000$88ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-03T09:43:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<6168A896-3E7C-4C88-833C-34AB4780F023@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nRoy,\nthat helps me so much. thank you.\n\nI got a whiff of the Author of V when he mentioned the bower\n\n\"but I will write for a little while more before I go to my bower to\nsleep: \"\n\nbower a pleasant shady place under trees or climbing plants in a\ngarden or wood.\n\nlazy summer days on Ushas, writing in the grotto" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't want to dredge up the tired comparisons of Severian to Jesus or\nChrist to the Conciliator again. But I can't resist something I've pointed\nout before, something that seems to me to quash the whole notion.\n\nIn the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, even\nif that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos,\nin that he was resurrected. Sure, Severian died a few times and was\nresurrected, one way or the other, and as the Conciliator he brought about\nthe renewal of Urth as Ushas. But the people of Urth had to die while\nSeverian *lived*, as a petty god, sitting on the beach writing his memoirs\nand watching the girls go by. It just ain't the same.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4074.72.171.0.143.1228304777.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T11:46:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c9552b$a5cd0000$88ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died*" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just for a couple of days. Then he was wandering around and doing stuff.\nAnd then he was puppeteering Paul all about the place, and (as the story\ngoes) has been doing similar things all through until today." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " to save the world, so to speak, even\nif that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian\nmythos, in that he was resurrected." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Elijah raised one, Elisha raised two, Jesus raised Lazarus and couple\nothers (I think) himself. Jesus did it all by himself, apparently, is what\nmade him unique." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Sure, Severian died a few times and was\nresurrected, one way or the other, and as the Conciliator he brought about\nthe renewal of Urth as Ushas. But the people of Urth had to die while\nSeverian *lived*, as a petty god, sitting on the beach writing his memoirs\nand watching the girls go by. It just ain't the same." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, Jesus does whatever he likes. He's God, after all.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T12:15:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<15EC7ACB-74FD-4959-97DC-462881913FC2@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian I (clawless) gained the phoenix throne, but did he become \nthe New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him \nso that he has the character to pass the Trial.\nI guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm \nwondering if they just saw the potential." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I apologize, but I think I've missed something. What is the \"potential\" that was seen? While I personally perceive Severian as being unique and pretty wonderful (I'm in love with and have worn out my first copies of The Wizard Knight), I also can't help but feel that he \"passed\" because it was time for the New Sun much as, to overtly steal from Marcus Aurelius, grapevines produce grapes when it is the time of year for them to produce grapes. I would be interested in responses. Thanks for reading.\nBob" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812030420n507a709bs26d77b8989b3f1c1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T12:20:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c9552b$a5cd0000$88ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:43 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI don't want to dredge up the tired comparisons of Severian to Jesus or\nChrist to the Conciliator again. But I can't resist something I've pointed\nout before, something that seems to me to quash the whole notion.\n\nIn the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, even\nif that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos,\nin that he was resurrected. Sure, Severian died a few times and was\nresurrected, one way or the other, and as the Conciliator he brought about\nthe renewal of Urth as Ushas. But the people of Urth had to die while\nSeverian *lived*, as a petty god, sitting on the beach writing his memoirs\nand watching the girls go by. It just ain't the same." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another big difference is that Severian's resurrections are explicitly\nsomething that Christ's was not. Severian either revives after a\nmoment of death or, if his body is badly mangled, has a new body\ncreated so that his Aristotelian form can be reimprinted upon it.\n\nNot only does this leave out the extraordinarily important Christian\nelement of the descent into Hades, a/k/a the Harrowing of Hell, but I\nthink it's probably heretical in the ancient faiths to think of\nChrist's resurrection as merely being a \"second Christmas\"--i.e., that\nthe divine Form once again joins to mortal Matter, no differently than\nit did 33 years earlier.\n\nAgain, the comparison is there deliberately, but Severian is meant to\nsuffer by it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T16:46:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812030420n507a709bs26d77b8989b3f1c1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian I (clawless) gained the phoenix throne, but did he become \nthe New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him \nso that he has the character to pass the Trial.\nI guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm \nwondering if they just saw the potential." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I apologize, but I think I've missed something. What is the \"potential\" that was seen? While I personally perceive Severian as being unique and pretty wonderful (I'm in love with and have worn out my first copies of The Wizard Knight), I also can't help but feel that he \"passed\" because it was time for the New Sun much as, to overtly steal from Marcus Aurelius, grapevines produce grapes when it is the time of year for them to produce grapes. I would be interested in responses. Thanks for reading.\nBob" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The \"potential\" was that he would pass the test.\nIt seems the Heiro-dudes seem to think he 'could' fail.\naccording the Ash, there is still quite some time before the sun dies and the last glaciation occurs. \nI suppose the spirit of you question is right though. it was time for the New Sun. I'm hazy on all this, but didn't the Jews think it was gettin' 'bout time for a Messiah 'round the time Jesus entered the picture.\nIt could perhaps be that the New Sun was waiting for a worthy host. dunnoh.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4936B96C.10900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-03T16:53:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I agree. There are 2 aquastors (at least), one before Yesod and one after the Flood.\n\nEach answer breeds new questions, however. Where/how are there 2 bodies in Apu's tomb? The aquastor escaped through a hole, leaving the dead Apu, who later came to life. That's one ...\n\nTUotNS is the most difficult book for me, not despite the answers but because of them. Witz is right---it's better read as a ghost story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:20:24 -0600\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <007001c95506$dc79bbe0$50cd4a0c at rclackey>\nContent-Type: text/plain;\tcharset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I found the relevant passage:\n\n\"But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on Tzadkiel's\nship?\"\nNearly whispering, Famulimus sang, \"The man whom you saw dead your\nmother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would\nweep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still living\nhere. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel\naccomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your\nmind and you anew.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nYes, which is why I said what I said. Tzadkiel is the Hierogrammate who\ncreated the new body on the Ship. There were two bodies on the Ship. The\ndead one had written the first four books. The new aquastor body Tzadkiel\nmade went on to become the Conciliator and Apu. After Apu got older and was\nstrangled, B, F & O created a new body in the tomb, which is why there were\ntwo bodies in that tomb. The newly created body went on to write the fifth\nbook. The dead Apu also came back to life when the first faint light of the\nwhite fountain reached Urth that night Sev fled the tomb, but that's another\nissue.\n\nBtw, aquastor and eidolon are interchangeable in the Urth Cycle. The former\nis the more formal term, the latter is the common, just as Increate is the\nlearned term for what the less educated call God.\n\n-Roy\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220812030855x625663d2obf09eea4791feb20@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T16:55:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we accept that Severian died and was resurrected in Gyoll (which,\ncontextually, seems to be right: cf. the chapter title, the child's skull,\nthe feeling of his death), then we have to assume that the Hieros (or\nperhaps just Tzadkiel) have always known that Severian would be the New\nSun. Of course, in Severian's timeline, there has always been an\nApu-Punchau and always been a Conciliator, so to avoid a paradox, Severian\nmust also always have had to go to Yesod and return by the brook.\n\nBringing a little more philosophy in the discussion, we might say that it\nwas in fact necessary that Severian be the New Sun; that in all possible\nworlds, no matter what else happens, Severian is the New Sun and so the\nHieros refuse to let him \"die\" in the sense of never creating a new aquastor\nfor his body to inhabit.\n\nMaybe our aquastor-counting can be simplified some -- what happens to\nSeverian that night in the Stone Town where he encounters Apu-Punchau? I\nalways read that scene as one of the two aquastors colliding, and since two\n(presumably) identical things existing together in separate spaces would be\na paradox itself, the two merged.\n\nLane" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T16:59:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<272706220812030855x625663d2obf09eea4791feb20@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It just ain't the same." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey Roy,\nno argument that they're not the same stories.\nI'll spare you my nuance to that though, I think I've typed about it enough for now.\n\n\nRegarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes.\nI'm not sure this reading is necessary.\nNo one else finds that dead Severian. Gunnie says Zak found him, and since Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body.\nBUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the other injuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, EXCEPT the compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in agony.\nWhy would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others not? why the pain?\n\nPerhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the Form Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body is fixed. a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. He sees Tzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft with the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true.\n\nbut the idea leads me to some other questions I'll compartmentalize in another post.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220812030902t54ddaed8w61779918da80414@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T17:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe all Severian has is the memory of the pain and thinks it's real. He\nis self-reporting all of this; there's no objective record as to whether he\nactually had the injuries or not.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nIt just ain't the same." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey Roy,\nno argument that they're not the same stories.\nI'll spare you my nuance to that though, I think I've typed about it enough\nfor now.\n\n\nRegarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes.\nI'm not sure this reading is necessary.\nNo one else finds that dead Severian. Gunnie says Zak found him, and since\nZak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body.\nBUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the other\ninjuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, EXCEPT\nthe compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in agony.\nWhy would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others not? why\nthe pain?\n\nPerhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the Form\nSeverian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body is\nfixed. a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. He sees\nTzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft\nwith the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true.\n\nbut the idea leads me to some other questions I'll compartmentalize in\nanother post.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4936C147.60902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-03T17:26:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<272706220812030902t54ddaed8w61779918da80414@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz---\n\nSupposedly, there is a Jewish tradition that each generation has its potential messiah. But usually that messiah fails. (I'm not sure what's supposed to happen if he succeeds, except that the Temple is rebuilt.) This would fit neatly with the progression of autarchs who failed to become the Conciliator. \n\nSee Michael Chabon's Yiddish Policemen's Union and an episode of Millenium, and no doubt many other silly conspiracy tales. Or ask your rebbe. ;)\n\nDavid" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:46:57 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Severian I (clawless) gained the phoenix throne, but did he become \nthe New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him \nso that he has the character to pass the Trial.\nI guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm \nwondering if they just saw the potential." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \n\n\nI apologize, but I think I've missed something. What is the \"potential\" that was seen? While I personally perceive Severian as being unique and pretty wonderful (I'm in love with and have worn out my first copies of The Wizard Knight), I also can't help but feel that he \"passed\" because it was time for the New Sun much as, to overtly steal from Marcus Aurelius, grapevines produce grapes when it is the time of year for them to produce grapes. I would be interested in responses. Thanks for reading.\nBob" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThe \"potential\" was that he would pass the test.\nIt seems the Heiro-dudes seem to think he 'could' fail.\naccording the Ash, there is still quite some time before the sun dies and the last glaciation occurs. \nI suppose the spirit of you question is right though. it was time for the New Sun. I'm hazy on all this, but didn't the Jews think it was gettin' 'bout time for a Messiah 'round the time Jesus entered the picture.\nIt could perhaps be that the New Sun was waiting for a worthy host. dunnoh.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T17:59:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<4936C147.60902@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz---\n\nSupposedly, there is a Jewish tradition that each generation has its potential messiah. But usually that messiah fails. (I'm not sure what's supposed to happen if he succeeds, except that the Temple is rebuilt.) This would fit neatly with the progression of autarchs who failed to become the Conciliator. \n\nSee Michael Chabon's Yiddish Policemen's Union and an episode of Millenium, and no doubt many other silly conspiracy tales. Or ask your rebbe. ;)\n\nDavid" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perfect, I love it.\n\nI should read that Chabon book. I only read Kavalier and Klay (sp?) which I thought great.\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493717AC.6020404@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T23:35:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c9552b$a5cd0000$88ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIn the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, even\nif that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos,\nin that he was resurrected. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about Lazarus, et al?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370812031546v7aefc11dlaf4809e9259444be@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T23:46:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<493717AC.6020404@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, even\nif that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian\nmythos,\nin that he was resurrected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What about Lazarus, et al?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah\nraises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does\nit himself." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T00:21:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812031546v7aefc11dlaf4809e9259444be@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak,\neven\nif that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian\nmythos,\nin that he was resurrected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What about Lazarus, et al?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah\nraises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does\nit himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to mention the imperishable body." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49376FF8.8040106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T05:51:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew King wrote:\nOn Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak,\neven\nif that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian\nmythos,\nin that he was resurrected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What about Lazarus, et al?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah\nraises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does\nit himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to mention the imperishable body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is the imperishable attribute scriptural?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00b301c955de$c555b940$a0ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-04T07:05:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nRegarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes.\nI'm not sure this reading is necessary.\nNo one else finds that dead Severian. Gunnie says Zak found him, and\nsince Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Zak is just a splintered-off piece of Tzadkiel, like the tiny Tzadkiel\nbeside the Brook who didn't know Severian's history because she was cut off\nfrom the main entity. Zak started out as a fur-ball, then evolved through\nstages over time on the Ship, to eventually become the false Epitome. It\nprobably wasn't Zak who made Sev the new body.\n\nAt any rate, it is a textual given (URTH, chapter L) that Sev got a new\naquastor body on the Ship from Tzadkiel that, over time, became solid.\nTzadkiel, the mighty Hierogrammate, did not have the ability to simply raise\nthe dead that Sev had. (ibid.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "BUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the other\ninjuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, EXCEPT\nthe compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in agony." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others not? why\nthe pain?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The pain came with the injuries, and it would have seemed mighty queer to\nGunnie and Sidero and the others if Sev had survived that fall unscathed.\nThe injuries made his survival at least plausible. Besides, I don't think\nTzadkiel wanted Sev to know then (maybe ever) that he had died and was just\nan aquastor. I don't know where the dead body went." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the\nForm Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body\nis fixed. a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. He sees\nTzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft\nwith the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mind, for want of a better term, of an aquastor comes from the memories\nof another entity. \"You were reflected thought in your dead mind. He\n[Tzadkiel] fixed the image, made it whole, mended the fatal wound [compound\nfracture?] you'd borne.\" (ibid.)\n\nSeverian died on that Ship and got another body. Just after the above quote\nis when Sev complained to Hierodules BF&O: \"Why couldn't Tzadkiel have\ncalled me back as I called back Zama? Healed me as I healed Herena? Why did\nI have to die?\"\n\nAn aquastor was the only way Tzadkiel could bring Sev back from death.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<431FE8CF-6D7B-41EC-9EF5-77631F96F137@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T07:15:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<00b301c955de$c555b940$a0ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy,\nYou're right on all counts here, I believe.\n\nDo you see any symbolic necessity for this death?\nI find the Lesson suggestion I made still compelling. but it hangs on \nwether or not the winged creature he shoots in the airshaft is \nTzadkiel or not. If it's just an apport, then I'm not so sure.\n\n?\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:05 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Regarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes.\nI'm not sure this reading is necessary.\nNo one else finds that dead Severian. Gunnie says Zak found him, and\nsince Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body.<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Zak is just a splintered-off piece of Tzadkiel, like the tiny Tzadkiel\nbeside the Brook who didn't know Severian's history because she was \ncut off\nfrom the main entity. Zak started out as a fur-ball, then evolved \nthrough\nstages over time on the Ship, to eventually become the false \nEpitome. It\nprobably wasn't Zak who made Sev the new body.\n\nAt any rate, it is a textual given (URTH, chapter L) that Sev got a \nnew\naquastor body on the Ship from Tzadkiel that, over time, became solid.\nTzadkiel, the mighty Hierogrammate, did not have the ability to \nsimply raise\nthe dead that Sev had. (ibid.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "BUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the \nother\ninjuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, \nEXCEPT\nthe compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in \nagony." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others \nnot? why\nthe pain?<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The pain came with the injuries, and it would have seemed mighty \nqueer to\nGunnie and Sidero and the others if Sev had survived that fall \nunscathed.\nThe injuries made his survival at least plausible. Besides, I don't \nthink\nTzadkiel wanted Sev to know then (maybe ever) that he had died and \nwas just\nan aquastor. I don't know where the dead body went." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is \nthe\nForm Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before \nthat body\nis fixed. a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He sees\nTzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the \nairshaft\nwith the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true.<<\n\nThe mind, for want of a better term, of an aquastor comes from the \nmemories\nof another entity. \"You were reflected thought in your dead mind. He\n[Tzadkiel] fixed the image, made it whole, mended the fatal wound \n[compound\nfracture?] you'd borne.\" (ibid.)\n\nSeverian died on that Ship and got another body. Just after the \nabove quote\nis when Sev complained to Hierodules BF&O: \"Why couldn't Tzadkiel have\ncalled me back as I called back Zama? Healed me as I healed Herena? \nWhy did\nI have to die?\"\n\nAn aquastor was the only way Tzadkiel could bring Sev back from death.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00ff01c955e4$8bd275e0$a0ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-04T07:47:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812031546v7aefc11dlaf4809e9259444be@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l quoted and wrote:\nOn Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak,\neven\nif that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian\nmythos,\nin that he was resurrected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What about Lazarus, et al?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah\nraises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does\nit himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the essence of what I meant, that in Christian thought the birth,\nlife, death and resurrection of a god who was God was a one-time event, a\nBig Deal, unlike the many \"pagan\" dying-and-resurrected gods before him. And\nafter the resurrection Jesus went away and has stayed away. Severian came\nback to Ushas in the flesh and lived it up as a petty god. A petty god\nbecause, after bringing the New Sun, most of his Conciliator power was gone.\nHe became useless superannuation at best, a false god in a new pantheon at\nworst, as the Sleeper.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<010d01c955e6$4aaa8ce0$a0ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-04T07:59:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<431FE8CF-6D7B-41EC-9EF5-77631F96F137@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nDo you see any symbolic necessity for this death?\nI find the Lesson suggestion I made still compelling. but it hangs on\nwether or not the winged creature he shoots in the airshaft is\nTzadkiel or not. If it's just an apport, then I'm not so sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the creature was Tzadkiel. Why kill Sev, just to bring him\nback on the sly? I have always thought that the winged creature was another\nassassination attempt by the forces opposed to the coming of a new sun, a\ncreature akin to the notule that attacked Sev and Jonas. FWIW.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T14:59:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<010d01c955e6$4aaa8ce0$a0ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:59 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do you see any symbolic necessity for this death?\nI find the Lesson suggestion I made still compelling. but it hangs \non\nwether or not the winged creature he shoots in the airshaft is\nTzadkiel or not. If it's just an apport, then I'm not so sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think the creature was Tzadkiel. Why kill Sev, just to bring \nhim\nback on the sly? I have always thought that the winged creature was \nanother\nassassination attempt by the forces opposed to the coming of a new \nsun, a\ncreature akin to the notule that attacked Sev and Jonas. FWIW.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose you're probably right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do you see any symbolic necessity for this death?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T22:42:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A new mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<49376FF8.8040106@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:51 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAnd also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah\nraises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does\nit himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not to mention the imperishable body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is the imperishable attribute scriptural?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+15:42-49\n\nThe natural/spiritual dichotomy is misleading, and a result of\ntroubled translation--though there aren't any major translations that\nget it right. Some even call it physical/spiritual.\nhttp://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-44.htm\n\nThe words involved are psuchikon and pneumatikon, deriving from psuche\nand pneuma. Pneuma is \"spirit\", but psuche is usually translated as\n\"soul\" or sometimes as \"being\". The idea of \"life-force\" isn't far\noff. There's a perfectly good Greek word meaning \"natural\": phusike,\nwhich has descended to us in \"physical\"." } ] } ] }