Subject: (urth) A new mystery ...

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:39:23 +0000

At least it is to me.

Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a 
great height inside the sailship?

And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume 
this must be.

And did the first Severian also take over this body?

Dave

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From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:56:36 +0000

>And did the first Severian also take over this body?

This is something that confuses me. having just read that part.
My friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point.
But I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later?
He's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body. Perhaps he just came close to death.  I think that's where the eidolon reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull in Gyoll is that.

Although,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself from without himself.  I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that could probably account for all of them. No?

~witz

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:59:13 +0000

> great height inside the sailship?

It was a new aquastor body made by the Hierogrammates.

> And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume

No. The first four books were written by the body that became autarch. The
fifth book was written by the body created by the Hierodules B, F, & O in
Apu's tomb, in the fifth book.

-Roy

---

From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 23:46:27 +0000

Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below
mentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically.  This would make
Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before,
with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together by
the 'mind of god'.  Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric
reading.  Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction.  So, as the New Sun,
he is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the
Concilitor.

So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge
impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian
resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently
influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc
etc.  This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so brilliant
in so many ways.

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote:

> But I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of
> Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later?
> He's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body.
> Perhaps he just came close to death.  I think that's where the eidolon
> reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull
> in Gyoll is that.
>
> Although,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience
> when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other
> instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself
> from without himself.  I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that
> could probably account for all of them. No?
>
> ~witz
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>
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From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:02:07 +0000

Hey Friend.

Eidolon or Aquastor, I'm not sure I know the difference.

One interesting aspect of this is the question of where does consciousness lie?  Severian was able to absorb the consciousness by eating flesh with pharamacon.  But his consciousness moves on despite his various deaths. I suppose the Aquastor idea covers that. But I wonder if this is an example of our question as to whether Severian is Divine or not. If he is, surely  his consciousness is not limited to his body.

There's also another switchup like this with the Severian that is Apu Punchau, right?

I'm re-reading Urth now, so maybe I'm jumping the gun here.
~witz

---

From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:09:40 +0000

The Lexicon conflates the two, so I don't know if there is a difference
either.

The question of consciousness is a good one.  I wish I could find that part
where Severian ponders this question, asking if a man is contained, in
whole, in each part of his body.

I think Aquastor/Eidolon Severian is kept alive by the mind of God, however
one wants to look at this.  We know that Aquastor/Eidolon's are kept going
by the 'Thinking Machines', but what thinking machine would be powerful
enough to follow Severian around through time to keep him going?  To me, he
is being kept alive in the mind of God.  And not only is HE being kept
alive, but all of the other beings inside of him (Thecla and the past
Autarchs).  I'm just rereading Urth, and will have to keep this one in mind.

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote:

> One interesting aspect of this is the question of where does consciousness
> lie?  Severian was able to absorb the consciousness by eating flesh with
> pharamacon.  But his consciousness moves on despite his various deaths. I
> suppose the Aquastor idea covers that. But I wonder if this is an example of
> our question as to whether Severian is Divine or not. If he is, surely  his
> consciousness is not limited to his body.
>
> >On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org
> >wrote:
> >
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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:11:48 +0000

The etymology of these words shall help.

Eidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract reality of an
idea.  For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the perfect instantiations
of a given idea that all particular instances of are imperfect emanations.
Aquastor comes from Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone.  So an
Eidolon is a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of
ideals/Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor would
be a created being formed of pure thought (intention).

It's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of Thecla's
memory and personality, but not her consciousness itself.  While these
things may be in some way linked to the brain, the sense of identity, the
self-consciousness and transcendental unity of apperception, is not, and
thus, Severian-as-intentional-being never experiences a disconnect between
his death(s) and rebirth(s).

Lane

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From: Jordon Flato <jordonflato at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:16:19 +0000

Lane,
Fabulous stuff.  Indeed, the etymology of those terms now seems extremely
important.  It is easy to say now that resurrected Severian is an Eidolon,
and that this happens to him in the perfect place in the myth.

And your point about Thecla is taken to heart as well.

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote:

> On T
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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:19:34 +0000

The areas of my expertise are limited to law and philosophy. ;) So I've just
about reached the limit of my depth.  And my specialization isn't in ancient
Greek philosophy, so I can't tell you all that much about aquastors or
Paracelsus, but Platonic idealism I can.  At the very least, the way I read
Wolfe was using Plato is more how Plato was received by the Gnostics and
Neoplatonists, who had a decidedly more systematic and mystic bent to their
Platonism than what I guess we could call "orthodox" Platonism.

Lane

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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:38:30 +0000

Thanks, Roy. Got to ponder that a while ...

The intervention of B+O+F occurs in chapter L; Severian falls and dies in chapter IX.

But I can see how it could be. The text says only

"The old Autarch, who lived in my mind but seldom spoke, muttered through my swollen lips. "Find another... 
A dozen panting breaths had passed before I understood what he had told us: that it was time to surrender this body to death, time for us---time for Severian and Thecla, time for himself and all the rest who stood in his shadow---to take a step toward the shadows ourselves. Time for us to find someone else."

Then Severian has his new body, although it is burned and has broken teeth. He's wearing velvet, which presumably belongs to the Autarch. It's as though he didn't die at all, and didn't inhabit a new body. But an aquastor might behave that way.

At any rate, the aquastor looked different from Severian, and Valeria recognizes him as ... the Conciliator?

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:59:13 -0600
From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ...
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <00ca01c954c0$d890ebc0$2acd4a0c at rclackey>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

-Roy

------------------------------

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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:45:30 +0000

Didn't the Autarch have a vial of alzabo around his neck at all times?
Wasn't that how Severian became the Autarch when they were shot down?

I would assume that Sev-as-Autarch had the same thing, and whatever poor
star sailor fell with him (or perhaps might have even been down there
already, the victim of some other fight) suddenly got a mouthful of alzabo
and Sev's flesh?

Lane

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:38 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:

> From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> <rclackey at stic.net>
> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> <urth at lists.urth.net>
>  > Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a> great height inside the sailship?
>
>
>  > And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume> this must be.
>
>
> avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/>: Outbound message clean.
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 03:30:17 +0000

I found the relevant passage:

"But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on Tzadkiel's 
ship?"
Nearly whispering, Famulimus sang, "The man whom you saw dead your 
mother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would 
weep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still living 
here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel 
accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your 
mind and you anew."

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 05:20:24 +0000

> accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your

Yes, which is why I said what I said. Tzadkiel is the Hierogrammate who
created the new body on the Ship. There were two bodies on the Ship. The
dead one had written the first four books. The new aquastor body Tzadkiel
made went on to become the Conciliator and Apu. After Apu got older and was
strangled, B, F & O created a new body in the tomb, which is why there were
two bodies in that tomb. The newly created body went on to write the fifth
book. The dead Apu also came back to life when the first faint light of the
white fountain reached Urth that night Sev fled the tomb, but that's another
issue.

Btw, aquastor and eidolon are interchangeable in the Urth Cycle. The former
is the more formal term, the latter is the common, just as Increate is the
learned term for what the less educated call God.

-Roy

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 05:35:30 +0000

On Dec 2, 2008, at 7:30 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:

> "But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on  
> Tzadkiel's ship?"
> weep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still  
> living here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel  
> accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build  
> your mind and you anew."

Nice.

>
> On Dec 2, 2008, at 4:11 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:
>> Eidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract  
>> reality of an idea.  For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the  
>> perfect instantiations of a given idea that all particular  
>> instances of are imperfect emanations.  Aquastor comes from  
>> Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone.  So an Eidolon is  
>> a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of ideals/ 
>> Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor  
>> would be a created being formed of pure thought (intention).
>>
>> It's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of  
>> Thecla's memory and personality, but not her consciousness itself.   
>> While these things may be in some way linked to the brain, the  
>> sense of identity, the self-consciousness and transcendental unity  
>> of apperception, is not, and thus, Severian-as-intentional-being  
>> never experiences a disconnect between his death(s) and rebirth(s).
>>

I enjoy the hair-splitting confusion here, re Eidolon/Aquastor
my basic reading of the above quote would make him Aquastor.
Eidolon would be the mold any instance, right? the blueprint.

what do y'all think about the multiple deaths? is there a canonical  
list?
second time through BotNS proper, I felt he died a good few times. not  
really sure though.
i mean, "Is He Dead?"
he was for a bit there, right? but no body left behind.

On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:
> mentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically.  This would  
> make Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have  
> been before, with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle  
> body', held together by the 'mind of god'.  Things in quotes are  
> meant to reflect my metaphoric reading.  Sort of like Christ after  
> the crucifiction.  So, as the New Sun, he is really a 'new  
> Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the Concilitor.
>
> So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a  
> huge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon  
> Severian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who  
> will subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to  
> become Eidolon Severian etc etc.  This time loop aspect is so damned  
> attractive to me, and so brilliant in so many ways.

Yowza

that we're just players in God's dream seems REAL enough to me. fun to  
see it played out like this.
tack on ghost story to the genreBended list,

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 05:42:50 +0000

Roy,
that helps me so much. thank you.

I got a whiff of the Author of V when he mentioned the bower

"but I will write for a little while more before I go to my bower to  
sleep: "

bower a pleasant shady place under trees or climbing plants in a  
garden or wood.

lazy summer days on Ushas, writing in the grotto

~witz

On Dec 2, 2008, at 9:20 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:

>> Tzadkiel's
>> living
>> your

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From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 05:52:53 +0000

On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:

> become Eidolon Severian etc etc.

ha ha.

so, he created the Conciliator myth himself, the arrogant bastard.
did he do it because he felt it had to be done, or could he not resist  
being Shaman

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 06:41:41 +0000

On Dec 2, 2008, at 9:52 PM, Son of Witz wrote:

> did he do it because he felt it had to be done, or could he not  
> resist being Shaman

wait a minute.

are we conflating the Severian Apu Punchau & The Sleeper God of Ushas  
with the Not Necessarily Severian Conciliator.
I've thought that since he is the Conciliator Come Again that he was  
the Conciliator of the myth. but maybe it existed before Severian I

Severian I (clawless)  gained the phoenix throne, but did he become  
the New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him  
so that he has the character to pass the Trial.
I guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm  
wondering if they just saw the potential.

????
~witz

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:43:43 +0000

> lazy summer days on Ushas, writing in the grotto

I don't want to dredge up the tired comparisons of Severian to Jesus or
Christ to the Conciliator again. But I can't resist something I've pointed
out before, something that seems to me to quash the whole notion.

In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, even
if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos,
in that he was resurrected. Sure, Severian died a few times and was
resurrected, one way or the other, and as the Conciliator he brought about
the renewal of Urth as Ushas. But the people of Urth had to die while
Severian *lived*, as a petty god, sitting on the beach writing his memoirs
and watching the girls go by. It just ain't the same.

-Roy

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 11:46:17 +0000

> In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died*

Just for a couple of days. Then he was wandering around and doing stuff.
And then he was puppeteering Paul all about the place, and (as the story
goes) has been doing similar things all through until today.

>                                to save the world, so to speak, even
> if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian
> mythos, in that he was resurrected.

Elijah raised one, Elisha raised two, Jesus raised Lazarus and couple
others (I think) himself. Jesus did it all by himself, apparently, is what
made him unique.

>                                Sure, Severian died a few times and was

Hey, Jesus does whatever he likes. He's God, after all.

.

---

From: Bob Miller <bob_bageera at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 12:15:35 +0000

> wondering if they just saw the potential.

I apologize, but I think I've missed something.  What is the "potential" that was seen?  While I personally perceive Severian as being unique and pretty wonderful (I'm in love with and have worn out my first copies of The Wizard Knight), I also can't help but feel that he "passed" because it was time for the New Sun much as, to overtly steal from Marcus Aurelius, grapevines produce grapes when it is the time of year for them to produce grapes.  I would be interested in responses.  Thanks for reading.
Bob

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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 12:20:50 +0000

> and watching the girls go by. It just ain't the same.

Another big difference is that Severian's resurrections are explicitly
something that Christ's was not.  Severian either revives after a
moment of death or, if his body is badly mangled, has a new body
created so that his Aristotelian form can be reimprinted upon it.

Not only does this leave out the extraordinarily important Christian
element of the descent into Hades, a/k/a the Harrowing of Hell, but I
think it's probably heretical in the ancient faiths to think of
Christ's resurrection as merely being a "second Christmas"--i.e., that
the divine Form once again joins to mortal Matter, no differently than
it did 33 years earlier.

Again, the comparison is there deliberately, but Severian is meant to
suffer by it.

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:46:57 +0000

>I apologize, but I think I've missed something.  What is the "potential" that was seen?  While I personally perceive Severian as being unique and pretty wonderful (I'm in love with and have worn out…

The "potential" was that he would pass the test.
It seems the Heiro-dudes seem to think he 'could' fail.
according the Ash, there is still quite some time before the sun dies and the last glaciation occurs.  
I suppose the spirit of you question is right though. it was time for the New Sun.  I'm hazy on all this, but didn't the Jews think it was gettin' 'bout time for a Messiah 'round the time Jesus entered the picture.
It could perhaps be that the New Sun was waiting for a worthy host.  dunnoh.

~witz

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:53:00 +0000

Yes, I agree. There are 2 aquastors (at least), one before Yesod and one after the Flood.

Each answer breeds new questions, however. Where/how are there 2 bodies in Apu's tomb? The aquastor escaped through a hole, leaving the dead Apu, who later came to life. That's one ...

TUotNS is the most difficult book for me, not despite the answers but because of them. Witz is right---it's better read as a ghost story.

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:20:24 -0600
From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ...
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <007001c95506$dc79bbe0$50cd4a0c at rclackey>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

-Roy

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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:55:26 +0000

If we accept that Severian died and was resurrected in Gyoll (which,
contextually, seems to be right:  cf. the chapter title, the child's skull,
the feeling of his death), then we have to assume that the Hieros (or
perhaps just Tzadkiel) have always known that Severian would be the New
Sun.  Of course, in Severian's timeline, there has always been an
Apu-Punchau and always been a Conciliator, so to avoid a paradox, Severian
must also always have had to go to Yesod and return by the brook.

Bringing a little more philosophy in the discussion, we might say that it
was in fact necessary that Severian be the New Sun; that in all possible
worlds, no matter what else happens, Severian is the New Sun and so the
Hieros refuse to let him "die" in the sense of never creating a new aquastor
for his body to inhabit.

Maybe our aquastor-counting can be simplified some -- what happens to
Severian that night in the Stone Town where he encounters Apu-Punchau?  I
always read that scene as one of the two aquastors colliding, and since two
(presumably) identical things existing together in separate spaces would be
a paradox itself, the two merged.

Lane
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From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:59:04 +0000

It just ain't the same.
>-Roy

Hey Roy,
no argument that they're not the same stories.
I'll spare you my nuance to that though, I think I've typed about it enough for now.

Regarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes.
I'm not sure this reading is necessary.
No one else finds that dead Severian.  Gunnie says Zak found him, and since Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body.
BUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the other injuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, EXCEPT the compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in agony.
Why would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others not? why the pain?

Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the Form Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body is fixed.  a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. He sees Tzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft with the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true.

but the idea leads me to some other questions I'll compartmentalize in another post.

~witz

---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 17:02:07 +0000

Maybe all Severian has is the memory of the pain and thinks it's real.  He
is self-reporting all of this; there's no objective record as to whether he
actually had the injuries or not.

Lane

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote:

> No one else finds that dead Severian.  Gunnie says Zak found him, and since
> Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body.
> BUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the other
> injuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, EXCEPT
> the compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in agony.
> Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the Form
> Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body is
> fixed.  a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. He sees
> Tzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft
> with the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true.
>
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 17:26:31 +0000

Witz---

Supposedly, there is a Jewish tradition that each generation has its potential messiah. But usually that messiah fails. (I'm not sure what's supposed to happen if he succeeds, except that the Temple is rebuilt.) This would fit neatly with the progression of autarchs who failed to become the Conciliator. 

See Michael Chabon's Yiddish Policemen's Union and an episode of Millenium, and no doubt many other silly conspiracy tales. Or ask your rebbe. ;)

David

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:46:57 +0000
From: "Son of Witz" <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Subject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ...
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <W22586201365751228322817 at webmail29>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

~witz

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From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 17:59:27 +0000

>See Michael Chabon's Yiddish Policemen's Union and an episode of Millenium, and no doubt many other silly conspiracy tales. Or ask your rebbe. ;)

Perfect, I love it.

I should read that Chabon book. I only read Kavalier and Klay (sp?) which I thought great.

~Witz

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:35:08 +0000

Roy C. Lackey wrote:
> in that he was resurrected. 

What about Lazarus, et al?

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:46:09 +0000

> What about Lazarus, et al?

And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah
raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does
it himself.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com

I once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant
and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and
a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett
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From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 00:21:56 +0000

> raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does

Not to mention the imperishable body.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 05:51:52 +0000

> Not to mention the imperishable body.

Is the imperishable attribute scriptural?

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:05:57 +0000

Son of Witz wrote:
> No one else finds that dead Severian.  Gunnie says Zak found him, and
since Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body.<<

Zak is just a splintered-off piece of Tzadkiel, like the tiny Tzadkiel
beside the Brook who didn't know Severian's history because she was cut off
from the main entity. Zak started out as a fur-ball, then evolved through
stages over time on the Ship, to eventually become the false Epitome. It
probably wasn't Zak who made Sev the new body.

At any rate, it is a textual given (URTH, chapter L) that Sev got a new
aquastor body on the Ship from Tzadkiel that, over time, became solid.
Tzadkiel, the mighty Hierogrammate, did not have the ability to simply raise
the dead that Sev had. (ibid.)

> Why would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others not? why
the pain?<<

The pain came with the injuries, and it would have seemed mighty queer to
Gunnie and Sidero and the others if Sev had survived that fall unscathed.
The injuries made his survival at least plausible. Besides, I don't think
Tzadkiel wanted Sev to know then (maybe ever) that he had died and was just
an aquastor. I don't know where the dead body went.

>> Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the
Form Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body
is fixed.  a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. He sees
Tzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft
with the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true.<<

The mind, for want of a better term, of an aquastor comes from the memories
of another entity. "You were reflected thought in your dead mind. He
[Tzadkiel]  fixed the image, made it whole, mended the fatal wound [compound
fracture?] you'd borne." (ibid.)

Severian died on that Ship and got another body. Just after the above quote
is when Sev complained to Hierodules BF&O: "Why couldn't Tzadkiel have
called me back as I called back Zama? Healed me as I healed Herena? Why did
I have to die?"

An aquastor was the only way Tzadkiel could bring Sev back from death.

-Roy

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:15:17 +0000

Roy,
You're right on all counts here, I believe.

Do you see any symbolic necessity for this death?
I find the Lesson suggestion I made still compelling.  but it hangs on  
wether or not the winged creature he shoots in the airshaft is  
Tzadkiel or not.  If it's just an apport, then I'm not so sure.

?
~witz

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:47:17 +0000

> raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does

That's the essence of what I meant, that in Christian thought the birth,
life, death and resurrection of a god who was God was a one-time event, a
Big Deal, unlike the many "pagan" dying-and-resurrected gods before him. And
after the resurrection Jesus went away and has stayed away. Severian came
back to Ushas in the flesh and lived it up as a petty god. A petty god
because, after bringing the New Sun, most of his Conciliator power was gone.
He became useless superannuation at best, a false god in a new pantheon at
worst, as the Sleeper.

-Roy

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:59:47 +0000

> Tzadkiel or not.  If it's just an apport, then I'm not so sure.

I don't think the creature was Tzadkiel. Why kill Sev, just to bring him
back on the sly? I have always thought that the winged creature was another
assassination attempt by the forces opposed to the coming of a new sun, a
creature akin to the notule that attacked Sev and Jonas. FWIW.

-Roy

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:59:19 +0000

> creature akin to the notule that attacked Sev and Jonas. FWIW.

I suppose you're probably right.

~witz

---

From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:42:59 +0000

> Is the imperishable attribute scriptural?

http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+15:42-49

The natural/spiritual dichotomy is misleading, and a result of
troubled translation--though there aren't any major translations that
get it right.  Some even call it physical/spiritual.
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-44.htm

The words involved are psuchikon and pneumatikon, deriving from psuche
and pneuma.  Pneuma is "spirit", but psuche is usually translated as
"soul" or sometimes as "being".  The idea of "life-force" isn't far
off.  There's a perfectly good Greek word meaning "natural":  phusike,
which has descended to us in "physical".