# A new mystery ... *The Urth list — 38 messages, 11 voices, 02 Dec 2008* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### David Stockhoff *02 Dec 2008, 20:39* At least it is to me. Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a great height inside the sailship? And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume this must be. And did the first Severian also take over this body? Dave --- ### Son of Witz *02 Dec 2008, 20:56 · follows David Stockhoff* > Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a > great height inside the sailship? > > And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume > this must be. > > And did the first Severian also take over this body? > > Dave > > > --- This is something that confuses me. having just read that part. My friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point. But I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later? He's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body. Perhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull in Gyoll is that. Although,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself from without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that could probably account for all of them. No? ~witz --- ### Roy C. Lackey *02 Dec 2008, 20:59 · in reply to David Stockhoff* > David Stockhoff wrote: > Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a > great height inside the sailship? It was a new aquastor body made by the Hierogrammates. > And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume > this must be. No. The first four books were written by the body that became autarch. The fifth book was written by the body created by the Hierodules B, F, & O in Apu's tomb, in the fifth book. -Roy --- ### Jordon Flato *02 Dec 2008, 23:46 · in reply to Son of Witz* Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below mentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before, with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together by the 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric reading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun, he is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the Concilitor. So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc etc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so brilliant in so many ways. >> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz wrote: >> Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a >> great height inside the sailship? >> >> And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume >> this must be. >> >> And did the first Severian also take over this body? >> >> Dave >> >> >> --- > This is something that confuses me. having just read that part. > My friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point. > But I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of > Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later? > He's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body. > Perhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon > reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull > in Gyoll is that. > > Although,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience > when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other > instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself > from without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that > could probably account for all of them. No? > > ~witz > > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Son of Witz *03 Dec 2008, 00:02 · follows Jordon Flato* Hey Friend. Eidolon or Aquastor, I'm not sure I know the difference. One interesting aspect of this is the question of where does consciousness lie? Severian was able to absorb the consciousness by eating flesh with pharamacon. But his consciousness moves on despite his various deaths. I suppose the Aquastor idea covers that. But I wonder if this is an example of our question as to whether Severian is Divine or not. If he is, surely his consciousness is not limited to his body. There's also another switchup like this with the Severian that is Apu Punchau, right? I'm re-reading Urth now, so maybe I'm jumping the gun here. ~witz > Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below > mentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make > Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before, > with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together by > the 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric > reading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun, > he is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the > Concilitor. > > So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge > impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian > resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently > influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc > etc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so brilliant > in so many ways. > > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz wrote: >>> Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a >>> great height inside the sailship? >>> >>> And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume >>> this must be. >>> >>> And did the first Severian also take over this body? >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> --- >> This is something that confuses me. having just read that part. >> My friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point. >> But I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part of >> Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later? >> He's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional body. >> Perhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon >> reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the skull >> in Gyoll is that. >> >> Although,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body Experience >> when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other >> instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views himself >> from without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because that >> could probably account for all of them. No? >> >> ~witz >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Jordon Flato *03 Dec 2008, 00:09 · in reply to Son of Witz* The Lexicon conflates the two, so I don't know if there is a difference either. The question of consciousness is a good one. I wish I could find that part where Severian ponders this question, asking if a man is contained, in whole, in each part of his body. I think Aquastor/Eidolon Severian is kept alive by the mind of God, however one wants to look at this. We know that Aquastor/Eidolon's are kept going by the 'Thinking Machines', but what thinking machine would be powerful enough to follow Severian around through time to keep him going? To me, he is being kept alive in the mind of God. And not only is HE being kept alive, but all of the other beings inside of him (Thecla and the past Autarchs). I'm just rereading Urth, and will have to keep this one in mind. > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Son of Witz wrote: > Hey Friend. > > Eidolon or Aquastor, I'm not sure I know the difference. > > One interesting aspect of this is the question of where does consciousness > lie? Severian was able to absorb the consciousness by eating flesh with > pharamacon. But his consciousness moves on despite his various deaths. I > suppose the Aquastor idea covers that. But I wonder if this is an example of > our question as to whether Severian is Divine or not. If he is, surely his > consciousness is not limited to his body. > > There's also another switchup like this with the Severian that is Apu > Punchau, right? > > I'm re-reading Urth now, so maybe I'm jumping the gun here. > ~witz >> Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below >> mentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make >> Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before, >> with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together >> by >> the 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric >> reading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun, >> he is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the >> Concilitor. >> >> So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge >> impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian >> resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently >> influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc >> etc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so >> brilliant >> in so many ways. >> >> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz > wrote: >>>> Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a >>>> great height inside the sailship? >>>> >>>> And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume >>>> this must be. >>>> >>>> And did the first Severian also take over this body? >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>> This is something that confuses me. having just read that part. >>> My friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point. >>> But I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part >>> of >>> Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later? >>> He's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional >>> body. >>> Perhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon >>> reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the >>> skull >>> in Gyoll is that. >>> >>> Although,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body >>> Experience >>> when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other >>> instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views >>> himself >>> from without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because >>> that >>> could probably account for all of them. No? >>> >>> ~witz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ --- ### Lane Haygood *03 Dec 2008, 00:11 · in reply to Son of Witz* The etymology of these words shall help. Eidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract reality of an idea. For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the perfect instantiations of a given idea that all particular instances of are imperfect emanations. Aquastor comes from Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone. So an Eidolon is a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of ideals/Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor would be a created being formed of pure thought (intention). It's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of Thecla's memory and personality, but not her consciousness itself. While these things may be in some way linked to the brain, the sense of identity, the self-consciousness and transcendental unity of apperception, is not, and thus, Severian-as-intentional-being never experiences a disconnect between his death(s) and rebirth(s). Lane > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Son of Witz wrote: > Hey Friend. > > Eidolon or Aquastor, I'm not sure I know the difference. > > One interesting aspect of this is the question of where does consciousness > lie? Severian was able to absorb the consciousness by eating flesh with > pharamacon. But his consciousness moves on despite his various deaths. I > suppose the Aquastor idea covers that. But I wonder if this is an example of > our question as to whether Severian is Divine or not. If he is, surely his > consciousness is not limited to his body. > > There's also another switchup like this with the Severian that is Apu > Punchau, right? > > I'm re-reading Urth now, so maybe I'm jumping the gun here. > ~witz >> Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below >> mentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would make >> Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have been before, >> with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle body', held together >> by >> the 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are meant to reflect my metaphoric >> reading. Sort of like Christ after the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun, >> he is really a 'new Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the >> Concilitor. >> >> So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a huge >> impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon Severian >> resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who will subsequently >> influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to become Eidolon Severian etc >> etc. This time loop aspect is so damned attractive to me, and so >> brilliant >> in so many ways. >> >> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Son of Witz > wrote: >>>> Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a >>>> great height inside the sailship? >>>> >>>> And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume >>>> this must be. >>>> >>>> And did the first Severian also take over this body? >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>> This is something that confuses me. having just read that part. >>> My friend suggests he's an Eidolon at this point. >>> But I think he may have died and been resurrected in the very first part >>> of >>> Shadow, swimming in Gyoll, leaving behind the skull that he finds later? >>> He's also resurrected in the Avern Duel, but there is no additional >>> body. >>> Perhaps he just came close to death. I think that's where the eidolon >>> reading comes in, because that's the only body left behind, unless the >>> skull >>> in Gyoll is that. >>> >>> Although,it's plausible he could have been having an Out of Body >>> Experience >>> when he closed the dead Severian's eyes after that fall. There are other >>> instances where Sev has a sort of astral projection that he views >>> himself >>> from without himself. I'm gonna reread it with that in mind, because >>> that >>> could probably account for all of them. No? >>> >>> ~witz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ --- ### Jordon Flato *03 Dec 2008, 00:16 · in reply to Lane Haygood* Lane, Fabulous stuff. Indeed, the etymology of those terms now seems extremely important. It is easy to say now that resurrected Severian is an Eidolon, and that this happens to him in the perfect place in the myth. And your point about Thecla is taken to heart as well. > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Lane Haygood wrote: > The etymology of these words shall help. > > Eidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract reality of an > idea. For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the perfect instantiations > of a given idea that all particular instances of are imperfect emanations. > Aquastor comes from Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone. So an > Eidolon is a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of > ideals/Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor would > be a created being formed of pure thought (intention). > > It's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of Thecla's > memory and personality, but not her consciousness itself. While these > things may be in some way linked to the brain, the sense of identity, the > self-consciousness and transcendental unity of apperception, is not, and > thus, Severian-as-intentional-being never experiences a disconnect between > his death(s) and rebirth(s). > > Lane > > > > > On T --- ### Lane Haygood *03 Dec 2008, 00:19 · in reply to Jordon Flato* The areas of my expertise are limited to law and philosophy. ;) So I've just about reached the limit of my depth. And my specialization isn't in ancient Greek philosophy, so I can't tell you all that much about aquastors or Paracelsus, but Platonic idealism I can. At the very least, the way I read Wolfe was using Plato is more how Plato was received by the Gnostics and Neoplatonists, who had a decidedly more systematic and mystic bent to their Platonism than what I guess we could call "orthodox" Platonism. Lane > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Jordon Flato wrote: > Lane, > Fabulous stuff. Indeed, the etymology of those terms now seems extremely > important. It is easy to say now that resurrected Severian is an Eidolon, > and that this happens to him in the perfect place in the myth. > > And your point about Thecla is taken to heart as well. > > > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Lane Haygood wrote: >> The etymology of these words shall help. >> >> Eidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract reality of an >> idea. For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the perfect instantiations >> of a given idea that all particular instances of are imperfect emanations. >> Aquastor comes from Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone. So an >> Eidolon is a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of >> ideals/Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor would >> be a created being formed of pure thought (intention). >> >> It's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of Thecla's >> memory and personality, but not her consciousness itself. While these >> things may be in some way linked to the brain, the sense of identity, the >> self-consciousness and transcendental unity of apperception, is not, and >> thus, Severian-as-intentional-being never experiences a disconnect between >> his death(s) and rebirth(s). >> >> Lane >> >> >> >> >> On T > _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *03 Dec 2008, 00:38 · follows Lane Haygood* Thanks, Roy. Got to ponder that a while ... The intervention of B+O+F occurs in chapter L; Severian falls and dies in chapter IX. But I can see how it could be. The text says only "The old Autarch, who lived in my mind but seldom spoke, muttered through my swollen lips. "Find another... A dozen panting breaths had passed before I understood what he had told us: that it was time to surrender this body to death, time for us---time for Severian and Thecla, time for himself and all the rest who stood in his shadow---to take a step toward the shadows ourselves. Time for us to find someone else." Then Severian has his new body, although it is burned and has broken teeth. He's wearing velvet, which presumably belongs to the Autarch. It's as though he didn't die at all, and didn't inhabit a new body. But an aquastor might behave that way. At any rate, the aquastor looked different from Severian, and Valeria recognizes him as ... the Conciliator? > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:59:13 -0600 > From: "Roy C. Lackey" > Subject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ... > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: <00ca01c954c0$d890ebc0$2acd4a0c at rclackey> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > David Stockhoff wrote: >> Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a >> great height inside the sailship? > > > It was a new aquastor body made by the Hierogrammates. >> And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume >> this must be. > > > No. The first four books were written by the body that became autarch. The > fifth book was written by the body created by the Hierodules B, F, & O in > Apu's tomb, in the fifth book. > > -Roy > > > > ------------------------------ --- ### Lane Haygood *03 Dec 2008, 00:45 · in reply to David Stockhoff* Didn't the Autarch have a vial of alzabo around his neck at all times? Wasn't that how Severian became the Autarch when they were shot down? I would assume that Sev-as-Autarch had the same thing, and whatever poor star sailor fell with him (or perhaps might have even been down there already, the victim of some other fight) suddenly got a mouthful of alzabo and Sev's flesh? Lane > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: > Thanks, Roy. Got to ponder that a while ... > > The intervention of B+O+F occurs in chapter L; Severian falls and dies in chapter IX. > > But I can see how it could be. The text says only > > "The old Autarch, who lived in my mind but seldom spoke, muttered through my swollen lips. "Find another... > A dozen panting breaths had passed before I understood what he had told us: that it was time to surrender this body to death, time for us---time for Severian and Thecla, time for himself and all the rest who stood in his shadow---to take a step toward the shadows ourselves. Time for us to find someone else." > > Then Severian has his new body, although it is burned and has broken teeth. He's wearing velvet, which presumably belongs to the Autarch. It's as though he didn't die at all, and didn't inhabit a new body. But an aquastor might behave that way. > > At any rate, the aquastor looked different from Severian, and Valeria recognizes him as ... the Conciliator? > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:59:13 -0600 > From: "Roy C. Lackey" > Subject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ... > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: <00ca01c954c0$d890ebc0$2acd4a0c at rclackey> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > David Stockhoff wrote: > > > Does anyone know whose body Severian took over after he fell from a> great height inside the sailship? > > > It was a new aquastor body made by the Hierogrammates. > > > > And is it this body which writes the first three books? I would assume> this must be. > > > No. The first four books were written by the body that became autarch. The > fifth book was written by the body created by the Hierodules B, F, & O in > Apu's tomb, in the fifth book. > > -Roy > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------ > > avast! Antivirus : Outbound message clean. > > Virus Database (VPS): 081202-0, 12/02/2008 > Tested on: 12/2/2008 7:38:32 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *03 Dec 2008, 03:30 · follows Lane Haygood* I found the relevant passage: "But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on Tzadkiel's ship?" Nearly whispering, Famulimus sang, "The man whom you saw dead your mother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would weep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still living here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your mind and you anew." --- ### Roy C. Lackey *03 Dec 2008, 05:20 · in reply to David Stockhoff* > David Stockhoff wrote: > I found the relevant passage: > > "But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on Tzadkiel's > ship?" > Nearly whispering, Famulimus sang, "The man whom you saw dead your > mother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would > weep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still living > here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel > accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your > mind and you anew." Yes, which is why I said what I said. Tzadkiel is the Hierogrammate who created the new body on the Ship. There were two bodies on the Ship. The dead one had written the first four books. The new aquastor body Tzadkiel made went on to become the Conciliator and Apu. After Apu got older and was strangled, B, F & O created a new body in the tomb, which is why there were two bodies in that tomb. The newly created body went on to write the fifth book. The dead Apu also came back to life when the first faint light of the white fountain reached Urth that night Sev fled the tomb, but that's another issue. Btw, aquastor and eidolon are interchangeable in the Urth Cycle. The former is the more formal term, the latter is the common, just as Increate is the learned term for what the less educated call God. -Roy --- ### Son of Witz *03 Dec 2008, 05:35 · in reply to David Stockhoff* > On Dec 2, 2008, at 7:30 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: > I found the relevant passage: > > "But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on > Tzadkiel's ship?" > Nearly whispering, Famulimus sang, "The man whom you saw dead your > mother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would > weep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still > living here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel > accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build > your mind and you anew." Nice. > On Dec 2, 2008, at 4:11 PM, Lane Haygood wrote: >> The etymology of these words shall help. >> >> Eidolon is a Greek philosophical term, denoting the abstract >> reality of an idea. For Plato, these are the universal Forms, the >> perfect instantiations of a given idea that all particular >> instances of are imperfect emanations. Aquastor comes from >> Paracelsus, an entity formed from thought alone. So an Eidolon is >> a projection from a higher world (the Platonic world of ideals/ >> Yesod) to a lower world (the physical world/Briah). An aquastor >> would be a created being formed of pure thought (intention). >> >> It's also important to note that Severian only absorbs some of >> Thecla's memory and personality, but not her consciousness itself. >> While these things may be in some way linked to the brain, the >> sense of identity, the self-consciousness and transcendental unity >> of apperception, is not, and thus, Severian-as-intentional-being >> never experiences a disconnect between his death(s) and rebirth(s). I enjoy the hair-splitting confusion here, re Eidolon/Aquastor my basic reading of the above quote would make him Aquastor. Eidolon would be the mold any instance, right? the blueprint. what do y'all think about the multiple deaths? is there a canonical list? second time through BotNS proper, I felt he died a good few times. not really sure though. i mean, "Is He Dead?" he was for a bit there, right? but no body left behind. > On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote: > Well, one of the reasons I like the Eidolon theory (being the below > mentioned 'friend') is how it resonates thematically. This would > make Severian not bodily resurrected (which he may or may not have > been before, with my vote for was), but resurrected in a 'subtle > body', held together by the 'mind of god'. Things in quotes are > meant to reflect my metaphoric reading. Sort of like Christ after > the crucifiction. So, as the New Sun, he is really a 'new > Severian', which is the Severian who becomes the Concilitor. > > So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a > huge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon > Severian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who > will subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to > become Eidolon Severian etc etc. This time loop aspect is so damned > attractive to me, and so brilliant in so many ways. Yowza that we're just players in God's dream seems REAL enough to me. fun to see it played out like this. tack on ghost story to the genreBended list, --- ### Son of Witz *03 Dec 2008, 05:42 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* Roy, that helps me so much. thank you. I got a whiff of the Author of V when he mentioned the bower "but I will write for a little while more before I go to my bower to sleep: " bower a pleasant shady place under trees or climbing plants in a garden or wood. lazy summer days on Ushas, writing in the grotto ~witz > On Dec 2, 2008, at 9:20 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > David Stockhoff wrote: >> I found the relevant passage: >> >> "But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on >> Tzadkiel's >> ship?" >> Nearly whispering, Famulimus sang, "The man whom you saw dead your >> mother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would >> weep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still >> living >> here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel >> accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build >> your >> mind and you anew." > Yes, which is why I said what I said. Tzadkiel is the Hierogrammate > who > created the new body on the Ship. There were two bodies on the Ship. > The > dead one had written the first four books. The new aquastor body > Tzadkiel > made went on to become the Conciliator and Apu. After Apu got older > and was > strangled, B, F & O created a new body in the tomb, which is why > there were > two bodies in that tomb. The newly created body went on to write the > fifth > book. The dead Apu also came back to life when the first faint light > of the > white fountain reached Urth that night Sev fled the tomb, but that's > another > issue. > > Btw, aquastor and eidolon are interchangeable in the Urth Cycle. The > former > is the more formal term, the latter is the common, just as Increate > is the > learned term for what the less educated call God. > > -Roy > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Son of Witz *03 Dec 2008, 05:52 · in reply to Jordon Flato* > On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote: > So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a > huge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon > Severian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who > will subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to > become Eidolon Severian etc etc. ha ha. so, he created the Conciliator myth himself, the arrogant bastard. did he do it because he felt it had to be done, or could he not resist being Shaman --- ### Son of Witz *03 Dec 2008, 06:41 · in reply to Son of Witz* > On Dec 2, 2008, at 9:52 PM, Son of Witz wrote: > > On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Jordon Flato wrote: >> So, the first incarnation of the Conciliator, the figure who has a >> huge impact on Severian and Urth in BotNS, is in fact an Edilon >> Severian resurrected, who comes back to Urth as the New Sun, who >> will subsequently influence Severian in BotNS, who will go on to >> become Eidolon Severian etc etc. > ha ha. > > so, he created the Conciliator myth himself, the arrogant bastard. > did he do it because he felt it had to be done, or could he not > resist being Shaman wait a minute. are we conflating the Severian Apu Punchau & The Sleeper God of Ushas with the Not Necessarily Severian Conciliator. I've thought that since he is the Conciliator Come Again that he was the Conciliator of the myth. but maybe it existed before Severian I Severian I (clawless) gained the phoenix throne, but did he become the New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him so that he has the character to pass the Trial. I guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm wondering if they just saw the potential. ???? ~witz --- ### Roy C. Lackey *03 Dec 2008, 09:43 · in reply to Son of Witz* > Son of Witz wrote: > Roy, > that helps me so much. thank you. > > I got a whiff of the Author of V when he mentioned the bower > > "but I will write for a little while more before I go to my bower to > sleep: " > > bower a pleasant shady place under trees or climbing plants in a > garden or wood. > > lazy summer days on Ushas, writing in the grotto I don't want to dredge up the tired comparisons of Severian to Jesus or Christ to the Conciliator again. But I can't resist something I've pointed out before, something that seems to me to quash the whole notion. In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, even if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos, in that he was resurrected. Sure, Severian died a few times and was resurrected, one way or the other, and as the Conciliator he brought about the renewal of Urth as Ushas. But the people of Urth had to die while Severian *lived*, as a petty god, sitting on the beach writing his memoirs and watching the girls go by. It just ain't the same. -Roy --- ### brunians at brunians.org *03 Dec 2008, 11:46 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* Just for a couple of days. Then he was wandering around and doing stuff. And then he was puppeteering Paul all about the place, and (as the story goes) has been doing similar things all through until today. > to save the world, so to speak, even > if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian > mythos, in that he was resurrected. Elijah raised one, Elisha raised two, Jesus raised Lazarus and couple others (I think) himself. Jesus did it all by himself, apparently, is what made him unique. > Sure, Severian died a few times and was > resurrected, one way or the other, and as the Conciliator he brought about > the renewal of Urth as Ushas. But the people of Urth had to die while > Severian *lived*, as a petty god, sitting on the beach writing his memoirs > and watching the girls go by. It just ain't the same. Hey, Jesus does whatever he likes. He's God, after all. . --- ### Bob Miller *03 Dec 2008, 12:15 · in reply to Son of Witz* > Severian I (clawless) gained the phoenix throne, but did he become > the New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him > so that he has the character to pass the Trial. > I guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm > wondering if they just saw the potential. I apologize, but I think I've missed something. What is the "potential" that was seen? While I personally perceive Severian as being unique and pretty wonderful (I'm in love with and have worn out my first copies of The Wizard Knight), I also can't help but feel that he "passed" because it was time for the New Sun much as, to overtly steal from Marcus Aurelius, grapevines produce grapes when it is the time of year for them to produce grapes. I would be interested in responses. Thanks for reading. Bob --- ### John Watkins *03 Dec 2008, 12:20 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:43 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > I don't want to dredge up the tired comparisons of Severian to Jesus or > Christ to the Conciliator again. But I can't resist something I've pointed > out before, something that seems to me to quash the whole notion. > > In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, even > if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos, > in that he was resurrected. Sure, Severian died a few times and was > resurrected, one way or the other, and as the Conciliator he brought about > the renewal of Urth as Ushas. But the people of Urth had to die while > Severian *lived*, as a petty god, sitting on the beach writing his memoirs > and watching the girls go by. It just ain't the same. Another big difference is that Severian's resurrections are explicitly something that Christ's was not. Severian either revives after a moment of death or, if his body is badly mangled, has a new body created so that his Aristotelian form can be reimprinted upon it. Not only does this leave out the extraordinarily important Christian element of the descent into Hades, a/k/a the Harrowing of Hell, but I think it's probably heretical in the ancient faiths to think of Christ's resurrection as merely being a "second Christmas"--i.e., that the divine Form once again joins to mortal Matter, no differently than it did 33 years earlier. Again, the comparison is there deliberately, but Severian is meant to suffer by it. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Son of Witz *03 Dec 2008, 16:46 · follows John Watkins* >> Severian I (clawless) gained the phoenix throne, but did he become >> the New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him >> so that he has the character to pass the Trial. >> I guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm >> wondering if they just saw the potential. > I apologize, but I think I've missed something. What is the "potential" that was seen? While I personally perceive Severian as being unique and pretty wonderful (I'm in love with and have worn out my first copies of The Wizard Knight), I also can't help but feel that he "passed" because it was time for the New Sun much as, to overtly steal from Marcus Aurelius, grapevines produce grapes when it is the time of year for them to produce grapes. I would be interested in responses. Thanks for reading. > Bob The "potential" was that he would pass the test. It seems the Heiro-dudes seem to think he 'could' fail. according the Ash, there is still quite some time before the sun dies and the last glaciation occurs. I suppose the spirit of you question is right though. it was time for the New Sun. I'm hazy on all this, but didn't the Jews think it was gettin' 'bout time for a Messiah 'round the time Jesus entered the picture. It could perhaps be that the New Sun was waiting for a worthy host. dunnoh. ~witz --- ### David Stockhoff *03 Dec 2008, 16:53 · follows Son of Witz* Yes, I agree. There are 2 aquastors (at least), one before Yesod and one after the Flood. Each answer breeds new questions, however. Where/how are there 2 bodies in Apu's tomb? The aquastor escaped through a hole, leaving the dead Apu, who later came to life. That's one ... TUotNS is the most difficult book for me, not despite the answers but because of them. Witz is right---it's better read as a ghost story. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:20:24 -0600 > From: "Roy C. Lackey" > Subject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ... > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: <007001c95506$dc79bbe0$50cd4a0c at rclackey> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > David Stockhoff wrote: >> I found the relevant passage: >> >> "But if Apu-Punchau is myself, what was the body I found on Tzadkiel's >> ship?" >> Nearly whispering, Famulimus sang, "The man whom you saw dead your >> mother bore. Or so it seems to me from what's been said. Now I would >> weep for her if I had tears, though not---perhaps---for you still living >> here. What we did here for you, Severian, the mighty Tzadkiel >> accomplished there, remembrance taking from your dead mind to build your >> mind and you anew." > > > Yes, which is why I said what I said. Tzadkiel is the Hierogrammate who > created the new body on the Ship. There were two bodies on the Ship. The > dead one had written the first four books. The new aquastor body Tzadkiel > made went on to become the Conciliator and Apu. After Apu got older and was > strangled, B, F & O created a new body in the tomb, which is why there were > two bodies in that tomb. The newly created body went on to write the fifth > book. The dead Apu also came back to life when the first faint light of the > white fountain reached Urth that night Sev fled the tomb, but that's another > issue. > > Btw, aquastor and eidolon are interchangeable in the Urth Cycle. The former > is the more formal term, the latter is the common, just as Increate is the > learned term for what the less educated call God. > > -Roy > > > > ------------------------------ --- ### Lane Haygood *03 Dec 2008, 16:55 · in reply to Son of Witz* If we accept that Severian died and was resurrected in Gyoll (which, contextually, seems to be right: cf. the chapter title, the child's skull, the feeling of his death), then we have to assume that the Hieros (or perhaps just Tzadkiel) have always known that Severian would be the New Sun. Of course, in Severian's timeline, there has always been an Apu-Punchau and always been a Conciliator, so to avoid a paradox, Severian must also always have had to go to Yesod and return by the brook. Bringing a little more philosophy in the discussion, we might say that it was in fact necessary that Severian be the New Sun; that in all possible worlds, no matter what else happens, Severian is the New Sun and so the Hieros refuse to let him "die" in the sense of never creating a new aquastor for his body to inhabit. Maybe our aquastor-counting can be simplified some -- what happens to Severian that night in the Stone Town where he encounters Apu-Punchau? I always read that scene as one of the two aquastors colliding, and since two (presumably) identical things existing together in separate spaces would be a paradox itself, the two merged. Lane --- ### Son of Witz *03 Dec 2008, 16:59 · follows Lane Haygood* It just ain't the same. > -Roy Hey Roy, no argument that they're not the same stories. I'll spare you my nuance to that though, I think I've typed about it enough for now. Regarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes. I'm not sure this reading is necessary. No one else finds that dead Severian. Gunnie says Zak found him, and since Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body. BUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the other injuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, EXCEPT the compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in agony. Why would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others not? why the pain? Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the Form Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body is fixed. a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. He sees Tzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft with the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true. but the idea leads me to some other questions I'll compartmentalize in another post. ~witz --- ### Lane Haygood *03 Dec 2008, 17:02 · in reply to Son of Witz* Maybe all Severian has is the memory of the pain and thinks it's real. He is self-reporting all of this; there's no objective record as to whether he actually had the injuries or not. Lane > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Son of Witz wrote: > It just ain't the same. >> -Roy > Hey Roy, > no argument that they're not the same stories. > I'll spare you my nuance to that though, I think I've typed about it enough > for now. > > > Regarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes. > I'm not sure this reading is necessary. > No one else finds that dead Severian. Gunnie says Zak found him, and since > Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body. > BUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the other > injuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, EXCEPT > the compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in agony. > Why would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others not? why > the pain? > > Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the Form > Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body is > fixed. a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. He sees > Tzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft > with the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true. > > but the idea leads me to some other questions I'll compartmentalize in > another post. > > ~witz > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *03 Dec 2008, 17:26 · follows Lane Haygood* Witz--- Supposedly, there is a Jewish tradition that each generation has its potential messiah. But usually that messiah fails. (I'm not sure what's supposed to happen if he succeeds, except that the Temple is rebuilt.) This would fit neatly with the progression of autarchs who failed to become the Conciliator. See Michael Chabon's Yiddish Policemen's Union and an episode of Millenium, and no doubt many other silly conspiracy tales. Or ask your rebbe. ;) David > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:46:57 +0000 > From: "Son of Witz" > Subject: Re: (urth) A new mystery ... > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>>> Severian I (clawless) gained the phoenix throne, but did he become >>>> the New Sun? or is all of this Heirodules just trying to renurture him >>>> so that he has the character to pass the Trial. >>>> I guess I'd assumed that they saw him become the New Sun, but now I'm >>>> wondering if they just saw the potential. >> >> >> >> I apologize, but I think I've missed something. What is the "potential" that was seen? While I personally perceive Severian as being unique and pretty wonderful (I'm in love with and have worn out my first copies of The Wizard Knight), I also can't help but feel that he "passed" because it was time for the New Sun much as, to overtly steal from Marcus Aurelius, grapevines produce grapes when it is the time of year for them to produce grapes. I would be interested in responses. Thanks for reading. >> Bob > > > The "potential" was that he would pass the test. > It seems the Heiro-dudes seem to think he 'could' fail. > according the Ash, there is still quite some time before the sun dies and the last glaciation occurs. > I suppose the spirit of you question is right though. it was time for the New Sun. I'm hazy on all this, but didn't the Jews think it was gettin' 'bout time for a Messiah 'round the time Jesus entered the picture. > It could perhaps be that the New Sun was waiting for a worthy host. dunnoh. > > ~witz > > > > > ------------------------------ --- ### Son of Witz *03 Dec 2008, 17:59 · follows David Stockhoff* > Witz--- > > Supposedly, there is a Jewish tradition that each generation has its potential messiah. But usually that messiah fails. (I'm not sure what's supposed to happen if he succeeds, except that the Temple is rebuilt.) This would fit neatly with the progression of autarchs who failed to become the Conciliator. > > See Michael Chabon's Yiddish Policemen's Union and an episode of Millenium, and no doubt many other silly conspiracy tales. Or ask your rebbe. ;) > > David Perfect, I love it. I should read that Chabon book. I only read Kavalier and Klay (sp?) which I thought great. ~Witz --- ### Jeff Wilson *03 Dec 2008, 23:35 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > Roy C. Lackey wrote: > In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, even > if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian mythos, > in that he was resurrected. What about Lazarus, et al? ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *03 Dec 2008, 23:46 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > Roy C. Lackey wrote: >> In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, even >> if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian >> mythos, >> in that he was resurrected. > What about Lazarus, et al? And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does it himself. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant ----- http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer http://www.danehyoakes.com I once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett ``` --- ### Matthew King *04 Dec 2008, 00:21 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: >> Roy C. Lackey wrote: >>> In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, >>> even >>> if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian >>> mythos, >>> in that he was resurrected. >> What about Lazarus, et al? > And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah > raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does > it himself. Not to mention the imperishable body. --- ### Jeff Wilson *04 Dec 2008, 05:51 · in reply to Matthew King* > Matthew King wrote: > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: >>> Roy C. Lackey wrote: >>>> In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, >>>> even >>>> if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian >>>> mythos, >>>> in that he was resurrected. >>> What about Lazarus, et al? >> And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah >> raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does >> it himself. > Not to mention the imperishable body. Is the imperishable attribute scriptural? ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` --- ### Roy C. Lackey *04 Dec 2008, 07:05 · in reply to Son of Witz* > Son of Witz wrote: > Regarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes. > I'm not sure this reading is necessary. > No one else finds that dead Severian. Gunnie says Zak found him, and > since Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body.<< Zak is just a splintered-off piece of Tzadkiel, like the tiny Tzadkiel beside the Brook who didn't know Severian's history because she was cut off from the main entity. Zak started out as a fur-ball, then evolved through stages over time on the Ship, to eventually become the false Epitome. It probably wasn't Zak who made Sev the new body. At any rate, it is a textual given (URTH, chapter L) that Sev got a new aquastor body on the Ship from Tzadkiel that, over time, became solid. Tzadkiel, the mighty Hierogrammate, did not have the ability to simply raise the dead that Sev had. (ibid.) >> BUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the other >> injuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, EXCEPT >> the compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in agony. > Why would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others not? why > the pain?<< The pain came with the injuries, and it would have seemed mighty queer to Gunnie and Sidero and the others if Sev had survived that fall unscathed. The injuries made his survival at least plausible. Besides, I don't think Tzadkiel wanted Sev to know then (maybe ever) that he had died and was just an aquastor. I don't know where the dead body went. >> Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is the >> Form Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before that body >> is fixed. a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. He sees >> Tzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the airshaft >> with the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true.<< The mind, for want of a better term, of an aquastor comes from the memories of another entity. "You were reflected thought in your dead mind. He [Tzadkiel] fixed the image, made it whole, mended the fatal wound [compound fracture?] you'd borne." (ibid.) Severian died on that Ship and got another body. Just after the above quote is when Sev complained to Hierodules BF&O: "Why couldn't Tzadkiel have called me back as I called back Zama? Healed me as I healed Herena? Why did I have to die?" An aquastor was the only way Tzadkiel could bring Sev back from death. -Roy --- ### Son of Witz *04 Dec 2008, 07:15 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* Roy, You're right on all counts here, I believe. Do you see any symbolic necessity for this death? I find the Lesson suggestion I made still compelling. but it hangs on wether or not the winged creature he shoots in the airshaft is Tzadkiel or not. If it's just an apport, then I'm not so sure. ? ~witz > On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:05 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > Son of Witz wrote: >> Regarding the Aquastor body Tzadkiel makes. >> I'm not sure this reading is necessary. >> No one else finds that dead Severian. Gunnie says Zak found him, and >> since Zak is Tzadk, he would have been the one to 'hide' the body.<< > Zak is just a splintered-off piece of Tzadkiel, like the tiny Tzadkiel > beside the Brook who didn't know Severian's history because she was > cut off > from the main entity. Zak started out as a fur-ball, then evolved > through > stages over time on the Ship, to eventually become the false > Epitome. It > probably wasn't Zak who made Sev the new body. > > At any rate, it is a textual given (URTH, chapter L) that Sev got a > new > aquastor body on the Ship from Tzadkiel that, over time, became solid. > Tzadkiel, the mighty Hierogrammate, did not have the ability to > simply raise > the dead that Sev had. (ibid.) >>> BUT, when he is awakened by Gunnie and Zak, he still has all the >>> other >>> injuries he sustained in the fall/fight with Sideru in the spiracle, >>> EXCEPT >>> the compound fractured leg. His arm is still burned and he is in >>> agony. >> Why would his brand new body have some parts 'fixed' and others >> not? why >> the pain?<< > The pain came with the injuries, and it would have seemed mighty > queer to > Gunnie and Sidero and the others if Sev had survived that fall > unscathed. > The injuries made his survival at least plausible. Besides, I don't > think > Tzadkiel wanted Sev to know then (maybe ever) that he had died and > was just > an aquastor. I don't know where the dead body went. >>> Perhaps the Severian that closes the eyes of the Dead Severian is >>> the >>> Form Severian closing the eyes of the Instance of Severian before >>> that body >>> is fixed. a possibility, I guess, but its' a bit out of sequence. > He sees > Tzadkiel clap and has a vision of a new face, then he's back in the > airshaft > with the body. I would expect them reversed if this idea is true.<< > > The mind, for want of a better term, of an aquastor comes from the > memories > of another entity. "You were reflected thought in your dead mind. He > [Tzadkiel] fixed the image, made it whole, mended the fatal wound > [compound > fracture?] you'd borne." (ibid.) > > Severian died on that Ship and got another body. Just after the > above quote > is when Sev complained to Hierodules BF&O: "Why couldn't Tzadkiel have > called me back as I called back Zama? Healed me as I healed Herena? > Why did > I have to die?" > > An aquastor was the only way Tzadkiel could bring Sev back from death. > > -Roy > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Roy C. Lackey *04 Dec 2008, 07:47 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > Dan'l quoted and wrote: > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: >> Roy C. Lackey wrote: >>> In the Christian mythos, Jesus *died* to save the world, so to speak, >>> even >>> if that world was in the everafter. He was unique, in the Christian >>> mythos, >>> in that he was resurrected. >> What about Lazarus, et al? > And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah > raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does > it himself. That's the essence of what I meant, that in Christian thought the birth, life, death and resurrection of a god who was God was a one-time event, a Big Deal, unlike the many "pagan" dying-and-resurrected gods before him. And after the resurrection Jesus went away and has stayed away. Severian came back to Ushas in the flesh and lived it up as a petty god. A petty god because, after bringing the New Sun, most of his Conciliator power was gone. He became useless superannuation at best, a false god in a new pantheon at worst, as the Sleeper. -Roy --- ### Roy C. Lackey *04 Dec 2008, 07:59 · in reply to Son of Witz* > Son of Witz wrote: > Do you see any symbolic necessity for this death? > I find the Lesson suggestion I made still compelling. but it hangs on > wether or not the winged creature he shoots in the airshaft is > Tzadkiel or not. If it's just an apport, then I'm not so sure. I don't think the creature was Tzadkiel. Why kill Sev, just to bring him back on the sly? I have always thought that the winged creature was another assassination attempt by the forces opposed to the coming of a new sun, a creature akin to the notule that attacked Sev and Jonas. FWIW. -Roy --- ### Son of Witz *04 Dec 2008, 14:59 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:59 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > Son of Witz wrote: >> Do you see any symbolic necessity for this death? >> I find the Lesson suggestion I made still compelling. but it hangs >> on >> wether or not the winged creature he shoots in the airshaft is >> Tzadkiel or not. If it's just an apport, then I'm not so sure. > I don't think the creature was Tzadkiel. Why kill Sev, just to bring > him > back on the sly? I have always thought that the winged creature was > another > assassination attempt by the forces opposed to the coming of a new > sun, a > creature akin to the notule that attacked Sev and Jonas. FWIW. > > -Roy I suppose you're probably right. >> Do you see any symbolic necessity for this death? ~witz --- ### Matthew King *04 Dec 2008, 22:42 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* >>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:51 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: >>> And also Talitha (in the Book of Acts); and also the boy Elijah >>> raises. Christ is unique in that nobody resurrects him, he does >>> it himself. >> Not to mention the imperishable body. > Is the imperishable attribute scriptural? http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+15:42-49 The natural/spiritual dichotomy is misleading, and a result of troubled translation--though there aren't any major translations that get it right. Some even call it physical/spiritual. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-44.htm The words involved are psuchikon and pneumatikon, deriving from psuche and pneuma. Pneuma is "spirit", but psuche is usually translated as "soul" or sometimes as "being". The idea of "life-force" isn't far off. There's a perfectly good Greek word meaning "natural": phusike, which has descended to us in "physical". ---