{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5261", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5261, "subject": "Severian I, Severian II, Severian III, Severian Ad Nauseum", "messages": 11, "voices": 4, "first": "2008-12-03T17:54:14+00:00", "last": "2008-12-04T07:16:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T17:54:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III, Severian Ad Nauseum", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is Severian's speculation at the end of Citadel to be taken at face value?\n\nCitadel 38:\n\"Two things are clear to me. The first is that I am not the first \nSeverian...\"\n\nReading these, I've felt that Severian's speculation is often wrong, where as his more nebulous philosophical musings are usually right. So it wasn't until this discussion about the various Severians that I really even chewed on it.\n\nIt doesn't seem that he's right.\n\nThe narrator is the same as the First Severian, just reshaped by time travelers.\nMarty Mcfly and John Conner are not new Instances of themselves, they've just had their lives reshaped. \n\nSo what he means is that he must have had a timeline without the manipulations FIRST, then when he was noticed by the Heiros, they went back and altered his timeline to produce a character with more potential to become the New Sun than his first timeline did. The text does not say if this 'first' Severian passed the test, just that he sailed beyond Briah.\n\nsame quote section:\n\"he (who in the final sense was and is myself) became Autarch in turn and sailed beyond the candles of night. Then those who walk the corridors walked back to the time when he was young, and my own story as I have given it here in so many pages began. \n\"\n\nfrom the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really one Severian body, though that is confused by the tomb. This is why there is the explosion when he meets Apu Punchau. The Two bodies can't be in the same time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to speak). \n\nBook V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity. By most readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor Tzadkiel made. Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the old (which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really run the risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone town. Right? If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I don't think. They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right that Tzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one. \n(that argument here: http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html)\nSo, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the sequel, unless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body separate from the Author of BoTNS. \n\nI guess I'm bringing this up because this passage has led to some theories that seem pretty wonky to me. I take issue with the count of Severians in the Lexicon Urthus. I don't think he's mapped it out right because of a few reasons:\nSeverian I is Severian II, as I've argued above. What justification is there for calling the Claw Severian III? And if the New Sun body is fixed rather than remade, Severian IIII, narrator of Urth, is still the same Severian as I & II. Lacking the lexicon here, I can't go into the rest, but calling the White Fountain one of the sequenced Severian's seems dodgy at best because it's not really a sequential body.\n\nI've yet to reread the flood, so I'll have to account for his drowning there, but I think he's been resurrected (by self or by Heiros) at a few points within BoTNS proper, so if we're going to count every death/resurrection as a Sequential Severian, our count would be much higher and even more debateable. (\"Is He Dead?\") If we're going to only count dead bodies, then we shouldn't count Claw or Fountain.\n\nPhilosophically, I believe Consciousness is primary, and our bodies are not our true selves. for Severian this goes further than it does for us. He keeps living, whether he's poisoned by Avern, drowned in a river, broken from a fall, strangled, etc.)\n\nI think the point of this death is to show us this. Read the scene with an eye towards the death/resurrection theme. He's running from murderers. He meets up with a Suit of Armor (Sidero - Iron Man) and when he's fixing him and understanding Sidero's armor nature, he hears Great Wings and jumps in the Iron suit to protect his body. Then, the winged creature, the Butterfly Angel of the Book, Tzadkiel, unless I'm reading it wrong, picks him up and tosses him down the shaft. Why does Tzadkiel break his body? \nI think it's to show him that his body doesn't really matter, that he is constant. He doesn't NEED to get in that suit of armor, He doesn't, on the cusp of becoming the GOLD of the New Sun need to hide himself in a BASE METAL, like Iron, especially at this point, when he's more or less purified the LEAD of his mundane existence.\n\nUrth IX, the airshaft scene, when he's having his OBE.\n\"Had I delivered my final lines? \"In future times, so it has long been said, the death of the old sun will destroy Urth. But from its grave will rise monsters, a new people, and the New Sun. Old Urth will flower as a butterfly from its dry husk, and the New Urth shall be called Ushas.\" What fanfaron! Exit Prophet. \n\"\n\nI believe Tzadkiel is giving him a direct example of this notion of Resurrection from Death. It's especially relevant that Tzadkiel has butterfly wings. \" It was neither a woman nor a butterfly, but it partook of both,\"\n\nIf I'm wrong, and he is an Aquastor at this point, perhaps the idea is to remove the final LEAD from him before he becomes the New Sun. \n\nBut if he IS an Aquastor, why does he leave a Corpse or few later on Ushas?\nWhen Malrubius and Triskele were no longer sustained, they became dust. Why not corpses?\n\ntricky business parsing this out.\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812031042l3d3fc111sc0671d37bac628ff@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T18:42:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\n\tSeverian Ad Nauseum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:\nfrom the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really one Severian body, though that is confused by the tomb. This is why there is the explosion when he meets Apu Punchau. The Two bodies can't be in the same time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to speak).\n\nBook V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity. By most readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor Tzadkiel made. Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the old (which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really run the risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone town. Right? If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I don't think. They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right that Tzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one.\n(that argument here: http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html)\nSo, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the sequel, unless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body separate from the Author of BoTNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the bodies are the problem with Apu Punchau. It's the forms.\n\nThe Hieros explain that at the end of Urth, I think, with the bit\nabout writing the same lines too close together.\n\nThere's a lot of this Aristotelian/Scholastic philosophy dusted about\nin the Sun books--think also of Severian's definition of\nlarvae--\"masked spirits.\" Hardly what a modern who's taken a semester\nof biology thinks, but absolutely accurate in Aristotelian\nmetaphysics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T19:04:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\n Severian Ad Nauseum", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812031042l3d3fc111sc0671d37bac628ff@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:42 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\tSeverian Ad Nauseum\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "from the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really one Severian body, though that is confused by the tomb. This is why there is the explosion when he meets Apu Punchau. The Two bodies can't be in the same time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to speak).\n\nBook V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity. By most readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor Tzadkiel made. Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the old (which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really run the risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone town. Right? If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I don't think. They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right that Tzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one.\n(that argument here: http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html)\nSo, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the sequel, unless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body separate from the Author of BoTNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think the bodies are the problem with Apu Punchau. It's the forms.\n\nThe Hieros explain that at the end of Urth, I think, with the bit\nabout writing the same lines too close together.\n\nThere's a lot of this Aristotelian/Scholastic philosophy dusted about\nin the Sun books--think also of Severian's definition of\nlarvae--\"masked spirits.\" Hardly what a modern who's taken a semester\nof biology thinks, but absolutely accurate in Aristotelian\nmetaphysics." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The form is what the Heirodules call the Anima, no?\nthe example is of a verse. The Verse would be the Anima, the multiple writings in the dust would be the instances that cancel each other out. The way they explain it is different than the Law of Mirrors cancellation, I think.\n\nHere's the relevant passage, which does account for why his Aquastor would leave a corpse where Malrubius's wouldn't. \n\nman this shit is really confusing.\n\n\n\n\"One further question, illustrious Hierodules, before you return me to my own period. When I spoke with Master Malrubius beside the sea, he dissolved into a glittering dust. And yet \" I could not say it, but my eyes sought out the corpse. \nBarbatus nodded. \"That eidolon, as you call them, had been in existence only briefly. I don't know what energies Tzadkiel called upon to support you on the ship; it may even be that you yourself drew the support you needed from whatever source was at hand, just as you took power from the ship when you tried to raise your steward. But even if it was a source you left behind when you came here, you had lived a long time before that, on the ship, in Yesod, on the ship again, in the tender, in Typhon's time, and so on. During all that time you breathed, ate, and drank matter that was not unstable, converting it to your body's use. Thus it became a substantial body.\" \n\"But I'm dead not even here, dead back there on Tzadkiel's ship.\" \n\"Your twin lies dead there,\" Barbatus told me. \"As another lies dead here. I might say in passing that if he weren't dead, we couldn't have done what we did, because every living being is more than mere matter.\" He paused and glanced toward Fainulimus for help, but received none. \"What do you know of the anima?\" \nI thought then of Ava, and what she had said to me: \"You're a materialist, like all ignorant people. But your materialism doesn't make materialism true.\" Little Ava had died with Foila and the rest. \"Nothing,\" I muttered. \"I know nothing of the anima.\" \n\"In a way, it's like a line of verse. Famulimus, what was the one you quoted to me?\" \nHis wife sang, \"Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night, Has flung the Stone that puts the Stars to Flight.\" \n\"Yes,\" I said. \"I understand.\" \nBarbatus pointed. \"Suppose I were to write those lines upon that wall and then to write them again upon that other wall. Which would be the true lines?\" \n\"Both,\" I said. \"And neither. The true lines are not writing, nor speech either. I can't say what they are.\" \n\"That is the way of the anima, as I understand it. It was written there.\" He indicated the dead man. \"Now it is written in you. When the light of the White Fountain touches Urth, it will be written there again. Yet the anima will not be erased in you by that writing. Unless \" \nI waited for him to continue. \nOssipago said, \"Unless you come too close. If you write a name in the dust and retrace it with your finger, there are not two names, but one. If two currents flow through a conductor, there is one current.\" \nWhile I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, \"You came too near your double once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then he was gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead. Have you not wondered why? Be warned!\" \nBarbatus nodded. \"But as for our returning you to your own time, we can't help you. Your green man knew more than we, perhaps; or at least he had more energy at his disposal. We'll leave you food, water, and a light; but you'll have to wait for the White Fountain. It shouldn't be long, as Famulimus said.\" \nShe had begun to fade into the past already, so that her song seemed to come from far away. \"Do not destroy the corpse, Severian. However tempted you may be be warned!\" \nBarbatus and Ossipago had faded while I watched Famulimus. When her voice was gone, there was no sound in the House of Apu-Punchau but his own faint breath. \"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812031112u55f46223iee671bd8f8475923@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T19:12:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\n\tSeverian Ad Nauseum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, \"form\" and \"anima\" mean the same thing here (although not always,\nbecause \"anima\" will sometimes mean \"breath\" or \"soul\" when \"form\"\nwill not.)\n\nBasic Aristotelian metaphysics: entity = form + matter.\n\nThis is easiest to understand via artifacts. A blacksmith imagines\nthe form of a sword, then takes matter, steel, and forges it into the\nsword. The \"form,\" existing in the mind of the blacksmith, becomes\ninstantiated in the matter of the steel. But the substance, the thing\nitself, is neither the steel nor the picture in the head of the\nblacksmith, but their union in the sword.\n\nFor a living thing, the form is the anima, the life-principle--for\nhumans, you might call it the mind or the soul. The matter is the\nbody. Severian and Apu-Punchau are the same \"form\" instantiated, or\n\"written,\" in different matters. Nevertheless they are distinct\nentities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:42 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III, Severian Ad Nauseum\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "from the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really one Severian body, though that is confused by the tomb. This is why there is the explosion when he meets Apu Punchau. The Two bodies can't be in the same time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to speak).\n\nBook V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity. By most readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor Tzadkiel made. Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the old (which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really run the risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone town. Right? If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I don't think. They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right that Tzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one.\n(that argument here: http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html)\nSo, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the sequel, unless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body separate from the Author of BoTNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think the bodies are the problem with Apu Punchau. It's the forms.\n\nThe Hieros explain that at the end of Urth, I think, with the bit\nabout writing the same lines too close together.\n\nThere's a lot of this Aristotelian/Scholastic philosophy dusted about\nin the Sun books--think also of Severian's definition of\nlarvae--\"masked spirits.\" Hardly what a modern who's taken a semester\nof biology thinks, but absolutely accurate in Aristotelian\nmetaphysics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The form is what the Heirodules call the Anima, no?\nthe example is of a verse. The Verse would be the Anima, the multiple writings in the dust would be the instances that cancel each other out. The way they explain it is different than the Law of Mirrors cancellation, I think.\n\nHere's the relevant passage, which does account for why his Aquastor would leave a corpse where Malrubius's wouldn't.\n\nman this shit is really confusing.\n\n\n\n\"One further question, illustrious Hierodules, before you return me to my own period. When I spoke with Master Malrubius beside the sea, he dissolved into a glittering dust. And yet \" I could not say it, but my eyes sought out the corpse.\nBarbatus nodded. \"That eidolon, as you call them, had been in existence only briefly. I don't know what energies Tzadkiel called upon to support you on the ship; it may even be that you yourself drew the support you needed from whatever source was at hand, just as you took power from the ship when you tried to raise your steward. But even if it was a source you left behind when you came here, you had lived a long time before that, on the ship, in Yesod, on the ship again, in the tender, in Typhon's time, and so on. During all that time you breathed, ate, and drank matter that was not unstable, converting it to your body's use. Thus it became a substantial body.\"\n\"But I'm dead not even here, dead back there on Tzadkiel's ship.\"\n\"Your twin lies dead there,\" Barbatus told me. \"As another lies dead here. I might say in passing that if he weren't dead, we couldn't have done what we did, because every living being is more than mere matter.\" He paused and glanced toward Fainulimus for help, but received none. \"What do you know of the anima?\"\nI thought then of Ava, and what she had said to me: \"You're a materialist, like all ignorant people. But your materialism doesn't make materialism true.\" Little Ava had died with Foila and the rest. \"Nothing,\" I muttered. \"I know nothing of the anima.\"\n\"In a way, it's like a line of verse. Famulimus, what was the one you quoted to me?\"\nHis wife sang, \"Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night, Has flung the Stone that puts the Stars to Flight.\"\n\"Yes,\" I said. \"I understand.\"\nBarbatus pointed. \"Suppose I were to write those lines upon that wall and then to write them again upon that other wall. Which would be the true lines?\"\n\"Both,\" I said. \"And neither. The true lines are not writing, nor speech either. I can't say what they are.\"\n\"That is the way of the anima, as I understand it. It was written there.\" He indicated the dead man. \"Now it is written in you. When the light of the White Fountain touches Urth, it will be written there again. Yet the anima will not be erased in you by that writing. Unless \"\nI waited for him to continue.\nOssipago said, \"Unless you come too close. If you write a name in the dust and retrace it with your finger, there are not two names, but one. If two currents flow through a conductor, there is one current.\"\nWhile I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, \"You came too near your double once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then he was gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead. Have you not wondered why? Be warned!\"\nBarbatus nodded. \"But as for our returning you to your own time, we can't help you. Your green man knew more than we, perhaps; or at least he had more energy at his disposal. We'll leave you food, water, and a light; but you'll have to wait for the White Fountain. It shouldn't be long, as Famulimus said.\"\nShe had begun to fade into the past already, so that her song seemed to come from far away. \"Do not destroy the corpse, Severian. However tempted you may be be warned!\"\nBarbatus and Ossipago had faded while I watched Famulimus. When her voice was gone, there was no sound in the House of Apu-Punchau but his own faint breath. \"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220812031149q5be14195x59b8143bba2bbfc@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T19:49:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\n\tSeverian Ad Nauseum", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812031112u55f46223iee671bd8f8475923@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll explicate and clarify this later. What we're really talking about with\nAristotle requires us to contrast universality of a given idea with Plato's\nideas about universality. I'm just at work and can't write it out at the\nmoment.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nYes, \"form\" and \"anima\" mean the same thing here (although not always,\nbecause \"anima\" will sometimes mean \"breath\" or \"soul\" when \"form\"\nwill not.)\n\nBasic Aristotelian metaphysics: entity = form + matter.\n\nThis is easiest to understand via artifacts. A blacksmith imagines\nthe form of a sword, then takes matter, steel, and forges it into the\nsword. The \"form,\" existing in the mind of the blacksmith, becomes\ninstantiated in the matter of the steel. But the substance, the thing\nitself, is neither the steel nor the picture in the head of the\nblacksmith, but their union in the sword.\n\nFor a living thing, the form is the anima, the life-principle--for\nhumans, you might call it the mind or the soul. The matter is the\nbody. Severian and Apu-Punchau are the same \"form\" instantiated, or\n\"written,\" in different matters. Nevertheless they are distinct\nentities.\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:42 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III, Severian\nAd Nauseum\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "from the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really one\nSeverian body, though that is confused by the tomb. This is why there is\nthe explosion when he meets Apu Punchau. The Two bodies can't be in the\nsame time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to speak).\n\nBook V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity. By\nmost readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor\nTzadkiel made. Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the old\n(which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really run\nthe risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone town." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right? If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I don't\nthink. They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right that\nTzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(that argument here:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the sequel,\nunless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body\nseparate from the Author of BoTNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think the bodies are the problem with Apu Punchau. It's the\nforms.\n\nThe Hieros explain that at the end of Urth, I think, with the bit\nabout writing the same lines too close together.\n\nThere's a lot of this Aristotelian/Scholastic philosophy dusted about\nin the Sun books--think also of Severian's definition of\nlarvae--\"masked spirits.\" Hardly what a modern who's taken a semester\nof biology thinks, but absolutely accurate in Aristotelian\nmetaphysics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The form is what the Heirodules call the Anima, no?\nthe example is of a verse. The Verse would be the Anima, the multiple\nwritings in the dust would be the instances that cancel each other out. The\nway they explain it is different than the Law of Mirrors cancellation, I\nthink.\n\nHere's the relevant passage, which does account for why his Aquastor\nwould leave a corpse where Malrubius's wouldn't.\n\nman this shit is really confusing.\n\n\n\n\"One further question, illustrious Hierodules, before you return me to my\nown period. When I spoke with Master Malrubius beside the sea, he dissolved\ninto a glittering dust. And yet \" I could not say it, but my eyes sought out\nthe corpse.\nBarbatus nodded. \"That eidolon, as you call them, had been in existence\nonly briefly. I don't know what energies Tzadkiel called upon to support you\non the ship; it may even be that you yourself drew the support you needed\nfrom whatever source was at hand, just as you took power from the ship when\nyou tried to raise your steward. But even if it was a source you left behind\nwhen you came here, you had lived a long time before that, on the ship, in\nYesod, on the ship again, in the tender, in Typhon's time, and so on. During\nall that time you breathed, ate, and drank matter that was not unstable,\nconverting it to your body's use. Thus it became a substantial body.\"\n\"But I'm dead not even here, dead back there on Tzadkiel's ship.\"\n\"Your twin lies dead there,\" Barbatus told me. \"As another lies dead\nhere. I might say in passing that if he weren't dead, we couldn't have done\nwhat we did, because every living being is more than mere matter.\" He paused\nand glanced toward Fainulimus for help, but received none. \"What do you know\nof the anima?\"\nI thought then of Ava, and what she had said to me: \"You're a\nmaterialist, like all ignorant people. But your materialism doesn't make\nmaterialism true.\" Little Ava had died with Foila and the rest. \"Nothing,\" I\nmuttered. \"I know nothing of the anima.\"\n\"In a way, it's like a line of verse. Famulimus, what was the one you\nquoted to me?\"\nHis wife sang, \"Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night, Has flung the\nStone that puts the Stars to Flight.\"\n\"Yes,\" I said. \"I understand.\"\nBarbatus pointed. \"Suppose I were to write those lines upon that wall and\nthen to write them again upon that other wall. Which would be the true\nlines?\"\n\"Both,\" I said. \"And neither. The true lines are not writing, nor speech\neither. I can't say what they are.\"\n\"That is the way of the anima, as I understand it. It was written there.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He indicated the dead man. \"Now it is written in you. When the light of the\nWhite Fountain touches Urth, it will be written there again. Yet the anima\nwill not be erased in you by that writing. Unless \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I waited for him to continue.\nOssipago said, \"Unless you come too close. If you write a name in the\ndust and retrace it with your finger, there are not two names, but one. If\ntwo currents flow through a conductor, there is one current.\"\nWhile I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, \"You came too near your\ndouble once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then he\nwas gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead. Have\nyou not wondered why? Be warned!\"\nBarbatus nodded. \"But as for our returning you to your own time, we can't\nhelp you. Your green man knew more than we, perhaps; or at least he had more\nenergy at his disposal. We'll leave you food, water, and a light; but you'll\nhave to wait for the White Fountain. It shouldn't be long, as Famulimus\nsaid.\"\nShe had begun to fade into the past already, so that her song seemed to\ncome from far away. \"Do not destroy the corpse, Severian. However tempted\nyou may be be warned!\"\nBarbatus and Ossipago had faded while I watched Famulimus. When her voice\nwas gone, there was no sound in the House of Apu-Punchau but his own faint\nbreath. \"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812031154h393776ccs4d64dcde38bb373c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T19:54:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\n\tSeverian Ad Nauseum", "in_reply_to": "<272706220812031149q5be14195x59b8143bba2bbfc@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, my basic rundown was meant as that.\n\nHeck, I even conflated Aristotle with Aquinas very badly at the end." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/08, Lane Haygood wrote:\nI'll explicate and clarify this later. What we're really talking about with\nAristotle requires us to contrast universality of a given idea with Plato's\nideas about universality. I'm just at work and can't write it out at the\nmoment.\n\nLane\n\n\nOn Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, \"form\" and \"anima\" mean the same thing here (although not always,\nbecause \"anima\" will sometimes mean \"breath\" or \"soul\" when \"form\"\nwill not.)\n\nBasic Aristotelian metaphysics: entity = form + matter.\n\nThis is easiest to understand via artifacts. A blacksmith imagines\nthe form of a sword, then takes matter, steel, and forges it into the\nsword. The \"form,\" existing in the mind of the blacksmith, becomes\ninstantiated in the matter of the steel. But the substance, the thing\nitself, is neither the steel nor the picture in the head of the\nblacksmith, but their union in the sword.\n\nFor a living thing, the form is the anima, the life-principle--for\nhumans, you might call it the mind or the soul. The matter is the\nbody. Severian and Apu-Punchau are the same \"form\" instantiated, or\n\"written,\" in different matters. Nevertheless they are distinct\nentities.\n\n\n\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:42 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III, Severian\nAd Nauseum\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "from the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really one\nSeverian body, though that is confused by the tomb. This is why there is\nthe explosion when he meets Apu Punchau. The Two bodies can't be in the\nsame time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to speak).\n\nBook V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity. By\nmost readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor\nTzadkiel made. Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the old\n(which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really run\nthe risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone town." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right? If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I don't\nthink. They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right that\nTzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "(that argument here:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "So, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the sequel,\nunless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body\nseparate from the Author of BoTNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't think the bodies are the problem with Apu Punchau. It's the\nforms.\n\nThe Hieros explain that at the end of Urth, I think, with the bit\nabout writing the same lines too close together.\n\nThere's a lot of this Aristotelian/Scholastic philosophy dusted about\nin the Sun books--think also of Severian's definition of\nlarvae--\"masked spirits.\" Hardly what a modern who's taken a semester\nof biology thinks, but absolutely accurate in Aristotelian\nmetaphysics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The form is what the Heirodules call the Anima, no?\nthe example is of a verse. The Verse would be the Anima, the multiple\nwritings in the dust would be the instances that cancel each other out. The\nway they explain it is different than the Law of Mirrors cancellation, I\nthink.\n\nHere's the relevant passage, which does account for why his Aquastor\nwould leave a corpse where Malrubius's wouldn't.\n\nman this shit is really confusing.\n\n\n\n\"One further question, illustrious Hierodules, before you return me to\nmy own period. When I spoke with Master Malrubius beside the sea, he\ndissolved into a glittering dust. And yet \" I could not say it, but my eyes\nsought out the corpse.\nBarbatus nodded. \"That eidolon, as you call them, had been in existence\nonly briefly. I don't know what energies Tzadkiel called upon to support you\non the ship; it may even be that you yourself drew the support you needed\nfrom whatever source was at hand, just as you took power from the ship when\nyou tried to raise your steward. But even if it was a source you left behind\nwhen you came here, you had lived a long time before that, on the ship, in\nYesod, on the ship again, in the tender, in Typhon's time, and so on. During\nall that time you breathed, ate, and drank matter that was not unstable,\nconverting it to your body's use. Thus it became a substantial body.\"\n\"But I'm dead not even here, dead back there on Tzadkiel's ship.\"\n\"Your twin lies dead there,\" Barbatus told me. \"As another lies dead\nhere. I might say in passing that if he weren't dead, we couldn't have done\nwhat we did, because every living being is more than mere matter.\" He paused\nand glanced toward Fainulimus for help, but received none. \"What do you know\nof the anima?\"\nI thought then of Ava, and what she had said to me: \"You're a\nmaterialist, like all ignorant people. But your materialism doesn't make\nmaterialism true.\" Little Ava had died with Foila and the rest. \"Nothing,\" I\nmuttered. \"I know nothing of the anima.\"\n\"In a way, it's like a line of verse. Famulimus, what was the one you\nquoted to me?\"\nHis wife sang, \"Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night, Has flung the\nStone that puts the Stars to Flight.\"\n\"Yes,\" I said. \"I understand.\"\nBarbatus pointed. \"Suppose I were to write those lines upon that wall\nand then to write them again upon that other wall. Which would be the true\nlines?\"\n\"Both,\" I said. \"And neither. The true lines are not writing, nor speech\neither. I can't say what they are.\"\n\"That is the way of the anima, as I understand it. It was written\nthere.\" He indicated the dead man. \"Now it is written in you. When the light\nof the White Fountain touches Urth, it will be written there again. Yet the\nanima will not be erased in you by that writing. Unless \"\nI waited for him to continue.\nOssipago said, \"Unless you come too close. If you write a name in the\ndust and retrace it with your finger, there are not two names, but one. If\ntwo currents flow through a conductor, there is one current.\"\nWhile I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, \"You came too near your\ndouble once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then he\nwas gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead. Have\nyou not wondered why? Be warned!\"\nBarbatus nodded. \"But as for our returning you to your own time, we\ncan't help you. Your green man knew more than we, perhaps; or at least he\nhad more energy at his disposal. We'll leave you food, water, and a light;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but you'll have to wait for the White Fountain. It shouldn't be long, as\nFamulimus said.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "She had begun to fade into the past already, so that her song seemed to\ncome from far away. \"Do not destroy the corpse, Severian. However tempted\nyou may be be warned!\"\nBarbatus and Ossipago had faded while I watched Famulimus. When her\nvoice was gone, there was no sound in the House of Apu-Punchau but his own\nfaint breath. \"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4764.67.142.130.11.1228343330.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-03T22:28:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\n Severian Ad Nauseum", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812031154h393776ccs4d64dcde38bb373c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, my basic rundown was meant as that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heck, I even conflated Aristotle with Aquinas very badly at the end." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So did Aquinas, though not necessrily more at the end than the beginning\nor middle....\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/3/08, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll explicate and clarify this later. What we're really talking about\nwith\nAristotle requires us to contrast universality of a given idea with\nPlato's\nideas about universality. I'm just at work and can't write it out at\nthe\nmoment.\n\nLane\n\n\nOn Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes, \"form\" and \"anima\" mean the same thing here (although not always,\nbecause \"anima\" will sometimes mean \"breath\" or \"soul\" when \"form\"\nwill not.)\n\nBasic Aristotelian metaphysics: entity = form + matter.\n\nThis is easiest to understand via artifacts. A blacksmith imagines\nthe form of a sword, then takes matter, steel, and forges it into the\nsword. The \"form,\" existing in the mind of the blacksmith, becomes\ninstantiated in the matter of the steel. But the substance, the thing\nitself, is neither the steel nor the picture in the head of the\nblacksmith, but their union in the sword.\n\nFor a living thing, the form is the anima, the life-principle--for\nhumans, you might call it the mind or the soul. The matter is the\nbody. Severian and Apu-Punchau are the same \"form\" instantiated, or\n\"written,\" in different matters. Nevertheless they are distinct\nentities.\n\n\n\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:42 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\nSeverian\nAd Nauseum\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "from the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really\none\nSeverian body, though that is confused by the tomb. This is why there\nis\nthe explosion when he meets Apu Punchau. The Two bodies can't be in the\nsame time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to\nspeak).\n\nBook V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By\nmost readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor\nTzadkiel made. Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the\nold\n(which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really\nrun\nthe risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone\ntown.\nRight? If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I\ndon't\nthink. They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right\nthat\nTzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "(that argument here:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "So, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the\nsequel,\nunless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body\nseparate from the Author of BoTNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I don't think the bodies are the problem with Apu Punchau. It's\nthe\nforms.\n\nThe Hieros explain that at the end of Urth, I think, with the bit\nabout writing the same lines too close together.\n\nThere's a lot of this Aristotelian/Scholastic philosophy dusted\nabout\nin the Sun books--think also of Severian's definition of\nlarvae--\"masked spirits.\" Hardly what a modern who's taken a\nsemester\nof biology thinks, but absolutely accurate in Aristotelian\nmetaphysics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The form is what the Heirodules call the Anima, no?\nthe example is of a verse. The Verse would be the Anima, the\nmultiple\nwritings in the dust would be the instances that cancel each other out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The\nway they explain it is different than the Law of Mirrors cancellation, I\nthink." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Here's the relevant passage, which does account for why his Aquastor\nwould leave a corpse where Malrubius's wouldn't.\n\nman this shit is really confusing.\n\n\n\n\"One further question, illustrious Hierodules, before you return me\nto\nmy own period. When I spoke with Master Malrubius beside the sea, he\ndissolved into a glittering dust. And yet \" I could not say it, but my\neyes\nsought out the corpse.\nBarbatus nodded. \"That eidolon, as you call them, had been in\nexistence\nonly briefly. I don't know what energies Tzadkiel called upon to support\nyou\non the ship; it may even be that you yourself drew the support you\nneeded\nfrom whatever source was at hand, just as you took power from the ship\nwhen\nyou tried to raise your steward. But even if it was a source you left\nbehind\nwhen you came here, you had lived a long time before that, on the ship,\nin\nYesod, on the ship again, in the tender, in Typhon's time, and so on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "During\nall that time you breathed, ate, and drank matter that was not unstable,\nconverting it to your body's use. Thus it became a substantial body.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"But I'm dead not even here, dead back there on Tzadkiel's ship.\"\n\"Your twin lies dead there,\" Barbatus told me. \"As another lies dead\nhere. I might say in passing that if he weren't dead, we couldn't have\ndone\nwhat we did, because every living being is more than mere matter.\" He\npaused\nand glanced toward Fainulimus for help, but received none. \"What do you\nknow\nof the anima?\"\nI thought then of Ava, and what she had said to me: \"You're a\nmaterialist, like all ignorant people. But your materialism doesn't make\nmaterialism true.\" Little Ava had died with Foila and the rest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Nothing,\" I\nmuttered. \"I know nothing of the anima.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"In a way, it's like a line of verse. Famulimus, what was the one\nyou\nquoted to me?\"\nHis wife sang, \"Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night, Has flung\nthe\nStone that puts the Stars to Flight.\"\n\"Yes,\" I said. \"I understand.\"\nBarbatus pointed. \"Suppose I were to write those lines upon that\nwall\nand then to write them again upon that other wall. Which would be the\ntrue\nlines?\"\n\"Both,\" I said. \"And neither. The true lines are not writing, nor\nspeech\neither. I can't say what they are.\"\n\"That is the way of the anima, as I understand it. It was written\nthere.\" He indicated the dead man. \"Now it is written in you. When the\nlight\nof the White Fountain touches Urth, it will be written there again. Yet\nthe\nanima will not be erased in you by that writing. Unless \"\nI waited for him to continue.\nOssipago said, \"Unless you come too close. If you write a name in\nthe\ndust and retrace it with your finger, there are not two names, but one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If\ntwo currents flow through a conductor, there is one current.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "While I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, \"You came too near your\ndouble once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then\nhe\nwas gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have\nyou not wondered why? Be warned!\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Barbatus nodded. \"But as for our returning you to your own time, we\ncan't help you. Your green man knew more than we, perhaps; or at least\nhe\nhad more energy at his disposal. We'll leave you food, water, and a\nlight;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but you'll have to wait for the White Fountain. It shouldn't be long, as\nFamulimus said.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "She had begun to fade into the past already, so that her song seemed\nto\ncome from far away. \"Do not destroy the corpse, Severian. However\ntempted\nyou may be be warned!\"\nBarbatus and Ossipago had faded while I watched Famulimus. When her\nvoice was gone, there was no sound in the House of Apu-Punchau but his\nown\nfaint breath. \"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220812031429w6866e8e2j70002a4ec42634a1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T22:29:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\n\tSeverian Ad Nauseum", "in_reply_to": "<4764.67.142.130.11.1228343330.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quit stealing my jokes.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:28 PM, wrote:\nYes, my basic rundown was meant as that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heck, I even conflated Aristotle with Aquinas very badly at the end." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So did Aquinas, though not necessrily more at the end than the beginning\nor middle....\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/3/08, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'll explicate and clarify this later. What we're really talking about\nwith\nAristotle requires us to contrast universality of a given idea with\nPlato's\nideas about universality. I'm just at work and can't write it out at\nthe\nmoment.\n\nLane\n\n\nOn Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes, \"form\" and \"anima\" mean the same thing here (although not always,\nbecause \"anima\" will sometimes mean \"breath\" or \"soul\" when \"form\"\nwill not.)\n\nBasic Aristotelian metaphysics: entity = form + matter.\n\nThis is easiest to understand via artifacts. A blacksmith imagines\nthe form of a sword, then takes matter, steel, and forges it into the\nsword. The \"form,\" existing in the mind of the blacksmith, becomes\ninstantiated in the matter of the steel. But the substance, the thing\nitself, is neither the steel nor the picture in the head of the\nblacksmith, but their union in the sword.\n\nFor a living thing, the form is the anima, the life-principle--for\nhumans, you might call it the mind or the soul. The matter is the\nbody. Severian and Apu-Punchau are the same \"form\" instantiated, or\n\"written,\" in different matters. Nevertheless they are distinct\nentities.\n\n\n\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:42 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\nSeverian\nAd Nauseum\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "from the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really\none\nSeverian body, though that is confused by the tomb. This is why there\nis\nthe explosion when he meets Apu Punchau. The Two bodies can't be in the\nsame time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to\nspeak).\n\nBook V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By\nmost readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor\nTzadkiel made. Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the\nold\n(which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really\nrun\nthe risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone\ntown.\nRight? If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I\ndon't\nthink. They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right\nthat\nTzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "(that argument here:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html\n)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "So, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the\nsequel,\nunless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body\nseparate from the Author of BoTNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I don't think the bodies are the problem with Apu Punchau. It's\nthe\nforms.\n\nThe Hieros explain that at the end of Urth, I think, with the bit\nabout writing the same lines too close together.\n\nThere's a lot of this Aristotelian/Scholastic philosophy dusted\nabout\nin the Sun books--think also of Severian's definition of\nlarvae--\"masked spirits.\" Hardly what a modern who's taken a\nsemester\nof biology thinks, but absolutely accurate in Aristotelian\nmetaphysics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The form is what the Heirodules call the Anima, no?\nthe example is of a verse. The Verse would be the Anima, the\nmultiple\nwritings in the dust would be the instances that cancel each other out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The\nway they explain it is different than the Law of Mirrors cancellation, I\nthink." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Here's the relevant passage, which does account for why his Aquastor\nwould leave a corpse where Malrubius's wouldn't.\n\nman this shit is really confusing.\n\n\n\n\"One further question, illustrious Hierodules, before you return me\nto\nmy own period. When I spoke with Master Malrubius beside the sea, he\ndissolved into a glittering dust. And yet \" I could not say it, but my\neyes\nsought out the corpse.\nBarbatus nodded. \"That eidolon, as you call them, had been in\nexistence\nonly briefly. I don't know what energies Tzadkiel called upon to support\nyou\non the ship; it may even be that you yourself drew the support you\nneeded\nfrom whatever source was at hand, just as you took power from the ship\nwhen\nyou tried to raise your steward. But even if it was a source you left\nbehind\nwhen you came here, you had lived a long time before that, on the ship,\nin\nYesod, on the ship again, in the tender, in Typhon's time, and so on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "During\nall that time you breathed, ate, and drank matter that was not unstable,\nconverting it to your body's use. Thus it became a substantial body.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"But I'm dead not even here, dead back there on Tzadkiel's ship.\"\n\"Your twin lies dead there,\" Barbatus told me. \"As another lies dead\nhere. I might say in passing that if he weren't dead, we couldn't have\ndone\nwhat we did, because every living being is more than mere matter.\" He\npaused\nand glanced toward Fainulimus for help, but received none. \"What do you\nknow\nof the anima?\"\nI thought then of Ava, and what she had said to me: \"You're a\nmaterialist, like all ignorant people. But your materialism doesn't make\nmaterialism true.\" Little Ava had died with Foila and the rest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Nothing,\" I\nmuttered. \"I know nothing of the anima.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"In a way, it's like a line of verse. Famulimus, what was the one\nyou\nquoted to me?\"\nHis wife sang, \"Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night, Has flung\nthe\nStone that puts the Stars to Flight.\"\n\"Yes,\" I said. \"I understand.\"\nBarbatus pointed. \"Suppose I were to write those lines upon that\nwall\nand then to write them again upon that other wall. Which would be the\ntrue\nlines?\"\n\"Both,\" I said. \"And neither. The true lines are not writing, nor\nspeech\neither. I can't say what they are.\"\n\"That is the way of the anima, as I understand it. It was written\nthere.\" He indicated the dead man. \"Now it is written in you. When the\nlight\nof the White Fountain touches Urth, it will be written there again. Yet\nthe\nanima will not be erased in you by that writing. Unless \"\nI waited for him to continue.\nOssipago said, \"Unless you come too close. If you write a name in\nthe\ndust and retrace it with your finger, there are not two names, but one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If\ntwo currents flow through a conductor, there is one current.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "While I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, \"You came too near your\ndouble once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then\nhe\nwas gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Have\nyou not wondered why? Be warned!\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Barbatus nodded. \"But as for our returning you to your own time, we\ncan't help you. Your green man knew more than we, perhaps; or at least\nhe\nhad more energy at his disposal. We'll leave you food, water, and a\nlight;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "but you'll have to wait for the White Fountain. It shouldn't be long, as\nFamulimus said.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "She had begun to fade into the past already, so that her song seemed\nto\ncome from far away. \"Do not destroy the corpse, Severian. However\ntempted\nyou may be be warned!\"\nBarbatus and Ossipago had faded while I watched Famulimus. When her\nvoice was gone, there was no sound in the House of Apu-Punchau but his\nown\nfaint breath. \"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812031434v5179f061pb870bddaff458680@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-03T22:34:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\n\tSeverian Ad Nauseum", "in_reply_to": "<4764.67.142.130.11.1228343330.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aquinas can hardly be blamed for not being entirely sure where he\nbegins and ends. There was an awful lot of him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/3/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nYes, my basic rundown was meant as that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heck, I even conflated Aristotle with Aquinas very badly at the end." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So did Aquinas, though not necessrily more at the end than the beginning\nor middle....\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/3/08, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'll explicate and clarify this later. What we're really talking about\nwith\nAristotle requires us to contrast universality of a given idea with\nPlato's\nideas about universality. I'm just at work and can't write it out at\nthe\nmoment.\n\nLane\n\n\nOn Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes, \"form\" and \"anima\" mean the same thing here (although not always,\nbecause \"anima\" will sometimes mean \"breath\" or \"soul\" when \"form\"\nwill not.)\n\nBasic Aristotelian metaphysics: entity = form + matter.\n\nThis is easiest to understand via artifacts. A blacksmith imagines\nthe form of a sword, then takes matter, steel, and forges it into the\nsword. The \"form,\" existing in the mind of the blacksmith, becomes\ninstantiated in the matter of the steel. But the substance, the thing\nitself, is neither the steel nor the picture in the head of the\nblacksmith, but their union in the sword.\n\nFor a living thing, the form is the anima, the life-principle--for\nhumans, you might call it the mind or the soul. The matter is the\nbody. Severian and Apu-Punchau are the same \"form\" instantiated, or\n\"written,\" in different matters. Nevertheless they are distinct\nentities.\n\n\n\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:42 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\nSeverian\nAd Nauseum\n\nOn 12/3/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "from the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really\none\nSeverian body, though that is confused by the tomb. This is why there\nis\nthe explosion when he meets Apu Punchau. The Two bodies can't be in the\nsame time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to\nspeak).\n\nBook V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By\nmost readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor\nTzadkiel made. Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the\nold\n(which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really\nrun\nthe risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone\ntown.\nRight? If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I\ndon't\nthink. They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right\nthat\nTzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "(that argument here:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "So, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the\nsequel,\nunless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body\nseparate from the Author of BoTNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I don't think the bodies are the problem with Apu Punchau. It's\nthe\nforms.\n\nThe Hieros explain that at the end of Urth, I think, with the bit\nabout writing the same lines too close together.\n\nThere's a lot of this Aristotelian/Scholastic philosophy dusted\nabout\nin the Sun books--think also of Severian's definition of\nlarvae--\"masked spirits.\" Hardly what a modern who's taken a\nsemester\nof biology thinks, but absolutely accurate in Aristotelian\nmetaphysics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The form is what the Heirodules call the Anima, no?\nthe example is of a verse. The Verse would be the Anima, the\nmultiple\nwritings in the dust would be the instances that cancel each other out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The\nway they explain it is different than the Law of Mirrors cancellation, I\nthink." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Here's the relevant passage, which does account for why his Aquastor\nwould leave a corpse where Malrubius's wouldn't.\n\nman this shit is really confusing.\n\n\n\n\"One further question, illustrious Hierodules, before you return me\nto\nmy own period. When I spoke with Master Malrubius beside the sea, he\ndissolved into a glittering dust. And yet \" I could not say it, but my\neyes\nsought out the corpse.\nBarbatus nodded. \"That eidolon, as you call them, had been in\nexistence\nonly briefly. I don't know what energies Tzadkiel called upon to support\nyou\non the ship; it may even be that you yourself drew the support you\nneeded\nfrom whatever source was at hand, just as you took power from the ship\nwhen\nyou tried to raise your steward. But even if it was a source you left\nbehind\nwhen you came here, you had lived a long time before that, on the ship,\nin\nYesod, on the ship again, in the tender, in Typhon's time, and so on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "During\nall that time you breathed, ate, and drank matter that was not unstable,\nconverting it to your body's use. Thus it became a substantial body.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"But I'm dead not even here, dead back there on Tzadkiel's ship.\"\n\"Your twin lies dead there,\" Barbatus told me. \"As another lies dead\nhere. I might say in passing that if he weren't dead, we couldn't have\ndone\nwhat we did, because every living being is more than mere matter.\" He\npaused\nand glanced toward Fainulimus for help, but received none. \"What do you\nknow\nof the anima?\"\nI thought then of Ava, and what she had said to me: \"You're a\nmaterialist, like all ignorant people. But your materialism doesn't make\nmaterialism true.\" Little Ava had died with Foila and the rest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Nothing,\" I\nmuttered. \"I know nothing of the anima.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"In a way, it's like a line of verse. Famulimus, what was the one\nyou\nquoted to me?\"\nHis wife sang, \"Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night, Has flung\nthe\nStone that puts the Stars to Flight.\"\n\"Yes,\" I said. \"I understand.\"\nBarbatus pointed. \"Suppose I were to write those lines upon that\nwall\nand then to write them again upon that other wall. Which would be the\ntrue\nlines?\"\n\"Both,\" I said. \"And neither. The true lines are not writing, nor\nspeech\neither. I can't say what they are.\"\n\"That is the way of the anima, as I understand it. It was written\nthere.\" He indicated the dead man. \"Now it is written in you. When the\nlight\nof the White Fountain touches Urth, it will be written there again. Yet\nthe\nanima will not be erased in you by that writing. Unless \"\nI waited for him to continue.\nOssipago said, \"Unless you come too close. If you write a name in\nthe\ndust and retrace it with your finger, there are not two names, but one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If\ntwo currents flow through a conductor, there is one current.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "While I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, \"You came too near your\ndouble once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then\nhe\nwas gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Have\nyou not wondered why? Be warned!\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Barbatus nodded. \"But as for our returning you to your own time, we\ncan't help you. Your green man knew more than we, perhaps; or at least\nhe\nhad more energy at his disposal. We'll leave you food, water, and a\nlight;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "but you'll have to wait for the White Fountain. It shouldn't be long, as\nFamulimus said.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "She had begun to fade into the past already, so that her song seemed\nto\ncome from far away. \"Do not destroy the corpse, Severian. However\ntempted\nyou may be be warned!\"\nBarbatus and Ossipago had faded while I watched Famulimus. When her\nvoice was gone, there was no sound in the House of Apu-Punchau but his\nown\nfaint breath. \"\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<185015EE-7132-4272-A967-99BEF903F132@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T04:37:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\n\tSeverian Ad Nauseum", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812031154h393776ccs4d64dcde38bb373c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, so matter, form and anima.\n\nPlato and many of the early philosophers wrestled with this idea of \nuniversality. For instance, if we go and look at a red thing (an \napple), we know it's red. We see the color. But what about \n\"redness?\" What is the \"thing-status\" (being, reality) of redness?\n\nPlato answers that for every general category there is a perfect, \nunchanging, eternal Idea (eidolon) that is that category. So, in the \nPlatonic Heaven of the Forms, there is the perfect Form of Red, and \nall particular red things \"participate in\" the form of red. That is, \nred things are imperfect instantiations of redness.\n\nBut we never have direct contact with this world, Plato says, so we \nmust know about it in another way. Hence, he theorizes that our souls \nknow it, but forget it as we are born into the mortal world. When we \nsee particular instantiations, it allows us to grasp the pure concept \nthrough a process called anamnesis, the remembrance of the Forms in \nour souls.\n\nAristotle found this to be problematic, and so argued instead that \nuniversality was a feature of things themselves. The general idea of \nredness, he argues, inheres the being of red things. That is, there \nis no \"redness\" apart from red things. The same \"ground for being\" is \nin all particular predicates. When I say of an apple, \"is red,\" I am \nreally making the claim that the apple itself is a ground, a \nsubstance, for predication of a property, redness, but that said \nproperty has no independent ground for being apart from that substance.\n\nMatter is the stuff that persists through physical changes, or what we \ncommonly think of as physical stuff. It's like dirt, or wind, or \nwater. But it can be given form, and certain things arise only in \nconcert between matter and form. A house, for instance, isn't the \nbricks and the framework and the plumbing, etc. It is the thing that \nis made up by their precise configuration. To put it more poetically, \na cup isn't the clay shell, but the empty space inside of it that is \nuseful. That's what gives a thing its telos, its purpose.\n\nSo what is a substance, as opposed to just matter? A substance is \nsomething non-separable from the object. I can separate the color red \nfrom the apple. It is possible to think of a non-red apple. But I \ncan't think of an apple that is non-spatial. Extension, mass, etc. \nare all properties of an apple that are substantial rather than \npredicable. In other words, substantial features cannot have separate \nexistence. A substance must also be differentiable from other things. \nIndividuality is a rough way of understanding it, but that implies too \nmuch uniqueness. We must be able to say that \"this, and not that\" is \na thing. Matter is therefore not a substance, because matter cannot \nfulfill both these conditions at once.\n\nSo the primary substance for Aristotle is form or essence \n(ousia) -- that special unique thing about a given individual that \nhelps us to differentiate it, without which it would not be a thing at \nall. But nothing exists in this sort of \"raw\" state. Everything is \nmatter + form, or essences and predicates, or grounds and properties. \nApples have \"applehood,\" but they also have mass, extension, a color, \na taste, a smell, etc.\n\nAnima refers to the soul (Aristotle's \"De Anima\" is translated as \"on \nthe soul.\"). It literally means breath, but refers instead to the life- \nforce or essential energy that animates (hey, hey, clue) the body. \nLiving things are matter + form + anima. We might say that anima was \na primitive attempt at understanding consciousness, though that'd be \nspecious, because we're no closer to understanding what consciousness \nis 2,000 years later, and probably won't have any greater clue 2,000 \nyears from today what it is.\n\nThis has been your nightly PHIL 101 lesson.\n\nLane" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8436056A-5B5D-4BBA-90F0-A235F018B66A@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T07:16:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,\n\tSeverian Ad Nauseum", "in_reply_to": "<185015EE-7132-4272-A967-99BEF903F132@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thanks.\n\nI'm more or less familiar with the concepts.\nI just lose track of the jargon and attributions.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 3, 2008, at 8:37 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nOK, so matter, form and anima.\n\nPlato and many of the early philosophers wrestled with this idea of \nuniversality. For instance, if we go and look at a red thing (an \napple), we know it's red. We see the color. But what about \n\"redness?\" What is the \"thing-status\" (being, reality) of redness?\n\nPlato answers that for every general category there is a perfect, \nunchanging, eternal Idea (eidolon) that is that category. So, in \nthe Platonic Heaven of the Forms, there is the perfect Form of Red, \nand all particular red things \"participate in\" the form of red. \nThat is, red things are imperfect instantiations of redness.\n\nBut we never have direct contact with this world, Plato says, so we \nmust know about it in another way. Hence, he theorizes that our \nsouls know it, but forget it as we are born into the mortal world. \nWhen we see particular instantiations, it allows us to grasp the \npure concept through a process called anamnesis, the remembrance of \nthe Forms in our souls.\n\nAristotle found this to be problematic, and so argued instead that \nuniversality was a feature of things themselves. The general idea \nof redness, he argues, inheres the being of red things. That is, \nthere is no \"redness\" apart from red things. The same \"ground for \nbeing\" is in all particular predicates. When I say of an apple, \"is \nred,\" I am really making the claim that the apple itself is a \nground, a substance, for predication of a property, redness, but \nthat said property has no independent ground for being apart from \nthat substance.\n\nMatter is the stuff that persists through physical changes, or what \nwe commonly think of as physical stuff. It's like dirt, or wind, or \nwater. But it can be given form, and certain things arise only in \nconcert between matter and form. A house, for instance, isn't the \nbricks and the framework and the plumbing, etc. It is the thing \nthat is made up by their precise configuration. To put it more \npoetically, a cup isn't the clay shell, but the empty space inside \nof it that is useful. That's what gives a thing its telos, its \npurpose.\n\nSo what is a substance, as opposed to just matter? A substance is \nsomething non-separable from the object. I can separate the color \nred from the apple. It is possible to think of a non-red apple. \nBut I can't think of an apple that is non-spatial. Extension, mass, \netc. are all properties of an apple that are substantial rather than \npredicable. In other words, substantial features cannot have \nseparate existence. A substance must also be differentiable from \nother things. Individuality is a rough way of understanding it, but \nthat implies too much uniqueness. We must be able to say that \n\"this, and not that\" is a thing. Matter is therefore not a \nsubstance, because matter cannot fulfill both these conditions at \nonce.\n\nSo the primary substance for Aristotle is form or essence \n(ousia) -- that special unique thing about a given individual that \nhelps us to differentiate it, without which it would not be a thing \nat all. But nothing exists in this sort of \"raw\" state. Everything \nis matter + form, or essences and predicates, or grounds and \nproperties. Apples have \"applehood,\" but they also have mass, \nextension, a color, a taste, a smell, etc.\n\nAnima refers to the soul (Aristotle's \"De Anima\" is translated as \n\"on the soul.\"). It literally means breath, but refers instead to \nthe life-force or essential energy that animates (hey, hey, clue) \nthe body. Living things are matter + form + anima. We might say \nthat anima was a primitive attempt at understanding consciousness, \nthough that'd be specious, because we're no closer to understanding \nwhat consciousness is 2,000 years later, and probably won't have any \ngreater clue 2,000 years from today what it is.\n\nThis has been your nightly PHIL 101 lesson.\n\nLane\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }