{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5263", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5263, "subject": "An Old mystery ...", "messages": 109, "voices": 18, "first": "2008-12-04T17:13:08+00:00", "last": "2008-12-08T20:14:12+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T17:13:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's the essence of what I meant, that in Christian thought the birth,\nlife, death and resurrection of a god who was God was a one-time event, a\nBig Deal, unlike the many \"pagan\" dying-and-resurrected gods before him. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is \"Christian Thought\" the only reading of the Christian myth? One can stand outside the tradition of the church and still make interpretations of this STORY. It is a fiction. It may be TRUE, but it is still a fiction, as all histories truly are. One can interpret myths from Greek, Hindu, Persian, etc without having a perspective truly from their perspectives. Sure some of the hairsplitting of theology could get wonky, but the essence and spirit would not necessarily be far from the mark.\n\nI'm not asking Christians to accept that Severian is Christ, LITERALLY.\nthat would counter their Christian thought, and, well, heaven forbid...\n\nIt does seem OBVIOUS that the abstracted notion of Christ is the template for the Messiah of the New Sun. No one is suggesting a one to one mapping of all the plot elements, NOR all of the official interpretations. It would seem wolfe wanted to write a story that dealt with Death and Resurrection on a personal, societal, and cosmic level, and in doing so, he took the Christ myth as an inspiration and tossed that essence of a symbol into his story. There are so many parallels that it seems really obstinate and close minded not to accept it. \n\nBy 'close-minded', I don't mean to insult anyone, just that if your ONLY looking at this potential from within Correct Christian Thought, you will probably be closed off to abstraction and recombination of the symbols that inspire Christian Thought. I've hardly seen anyone argue that Inire couldn't be Daedalus because it doesn't truly fit the perspective of Greek thought. Or that Daedalus was not a bent alien wearing a mask, so it just doesn't compare.\n\nI'm curious as to your thoughts as to they deeper symbolic meanings, Roy, as you've obviously parsed out the plot in a fairly watertight way. But what does that plot all add up to you? What level, besides plotting, do you engage with this material on?\n\n~SonOfWitz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812040933v30d5bc36xcf6a381ef6122f23@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T17:33:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But why is the death and resurrection stuff in New Sun more\n\"Christian\" and less \"generic dying/returning god\"? Sure, individual\nevents (both encounters with Typhon, for example) recall Christ's\nbiography, but in terms of being the victory of Day over Night, and\nOrder over Chaos, Severian is as much Horus or Mithras or Marduk as he\nis Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's the essence of what I meant, that in Christian thought the birth,\nlife, death and resurrection of a god who was God was a one-time event, a\nBig Deal, unlike the many \"pagan\" dying-and-resurrected gods before him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is \"Christian Thought\" the only reading of the Christian myth? One can stand outside the tradition of the church and still make interpretations of this STORY. It is a fiction. It may be TRUE, but it is still a fiction, as all histories truly are. One can interpret myths from Greek, Hindu, Persian, etc without having a perspective truly from their perspectives. Sure some of the hairsplitting of theology could get wonky, but the essence and spirit would not necessarily be far from the mark.\n\nI'm not asking Christians to accept that Severian is Christ, LITERALLY.\nthat would counter their Christian thought, and, well, heaven forbid...\n\nIt does seem OBVIOUS that the abstracted notion of Christ is the template for the Messiah of the New Sun. No one is suggesting a one to one mapping of all the plot elements, NOR all of the official interpretations. It would seem wolfe wanted to write a story that dealt with Death and Resurrection on a personal, societal, and cosmic level, and in doing so, he took the Christ myth as an inspiration and tossed that essence of a symbol into his story. There are so many parallels that it seems really obstinate and close minded not to accept it.\n\nBy 'close-minded', I don't mean to insult anyone, just that if your ONLY looking at this potential from within Correct Christian Thought, you will probably be closed off to abstraction and recombination of the symbols that inspire Christian Thought. I've hardly seen anyone argue that Inire couldn't be Daedalus because it doesn't truly fit the perspective of Greek thought. Or that Daedalus was not a bent alien wearing a mask, so it just doesn't compare.\n\nI'm curious as to your thoughts as to they deeper symbolic meanings, Roy, as you've obviously parsed out the plot in a fairly watertight way. But what does that plot all add up to you? What level, besides plotting, do you engage with this material on?\n\n~SonOfWitz\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:06:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812040933v30d5bc36xcf6a381ef6122f23@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But why is the death and resurrection stuff in New Sun more\n\"Christian\" and less \"generic dying/returning god\"? Sure, individual\nevents (both encounters with Typhon, for example) recall Christ's\nbiography, but in terms of being the victory of Day over Night, and\nOrder over Chaos, Severian is as much Horus or Mithras or Marduk as he\nis Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'd argue, again, that he brings about a sort of Apocatastasis.\n\nI'd also argue that those myths your talking about are PROBABLY all talking about the same principle. Horus and Mithras and Marduk are very like Christ, if you look at the symbols and try to abstract what those symbols are trying to talk explain. They're generally Regenerative Solar Healers who right a wrong.\n\nAll of these myths are made by HUMAN minds trying to understand these cosmological principles. Some may be more or less Divinely Inspired, but they are all the product of HUMAN writers. I think they are generally trying to describe, from their vantage point, something that most every culture has felt. Wolfe has just done his own take." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's the essence of what I meant, that in Christian thought the birth,\nlife, death and resurrection of a god who was God was a one-time event, a\nBig Deal, unlike the many \"pagan\" dying-and-resurrected gods before him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is \"Christian Thought\" the only reading of the Christian myth? One can stand outside the tradition of the church and still make interpretations of this STORY. It is a fiction. It may be TRUE, but it is still a fiction, as all histories truly are. One can interpret myths from Greek, Hindu, Persian, etc without having a perspective truly from their perspectives. Sure some of the hairsplitting of theology could get wonky, but the essence and spirit would not necessarily be far from the mark.\n\nI'm not asking Christians to accept that Severian is Christ, LITERALLY.\nthat would counter their Christian thought, and, well, heaven forbid...\n\nIt does seem OBVIOUS that the abstracted notion of Christ is the template for the Messiah of the New Sun. No one is suggesting a one to one mapping of all the plot elements, NOR all of the official interpretations. It would seem wolfe wanted to write a story that dealt with Death and Resurrection on a personal, societal, and cosmic level, and in doing so, he took the Christ myth as an inspiration and tossed that essence of a symbol into his story. There are so many parallels that it seems really obstinate and close minded not to accept it.\n\nBy 'close-minded', I don't mean to insult anyone, just that if your ONLY looking at this potential from within Correct Christian Thought, you will probably be closed off to abstraction and recombination of the symbols that inspire Christian Thought. I've hardly seen anyone argue that Inire couldn't be Daedalus because it doesn't truly fit the perspective of Greek thought. Or that Daedalus was not a bent alien wearing a mask, so it just doesn't compare.\n\nI'm curious as to your thoughts as to they deeper symbolic meanings, Roy, as you've obviously parsed out the plot in a fairly watertight way. But what does that plot all add up to you? What level, besides plotting, do you engage with this material on?\n\n~SonOfWitz\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49381C85.8030900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:08:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would be pretty crazy to have a photo of Neil Armstrong survive the gazillions of years, but not Christianity and its imagery. Especially since Nessus is Byzantium, and Severian is clearly describing Byzantine icon imagery. The Pantocrator is the typical Byzantine image of Christ we all have seen. (I'm not sure about the Lexicon's definition---it seems to conflate pantocrator and pankration in a way Wolfe might approve of but is not indicated here.) I'd read it more or less literally.\n\nBut unlike in Byzantium, Christianity is not the state religion of the Commonwealth---not quite. God is the Outsider there, and whoever the people worship, they locate temporal power in the person of the Autarch and the cacogens who prop him up. The Increate is spoken of by the people, but is almost a gnostic or at least anti-state figure in TBotNS. He doesn't openly run things by \"His\" will (the way he does for GWB and some of my Baptist relatives).\n\nSee http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/hypostas.html for a text referencing hypostasis, the other word your passage indicates, and see if it rings a bell. (It does for me.)\n\nThe Black Sun is the true divine power who is so distant from us that the light of day hides him (just as in the Whorl, he cannot be seen because he is outside the hull.) The Archons are the rulers of \"near space,\" if you will. I'd guess they correspond to the Heirodules. They have nothing to do with the Increate---they serve him as slaves, no less than do Abaia's lords.\n\nWolfe seems to appreciate alternative theologies. This goes along with the Pelasgian idea of Christ being not a Big Deal but merely the Best Example (i.e., Epitome) of Man. So there are pantocrators, not The Pantocrator. It's kind of like having a deck of cards celebrating 100,000 years of messiahs, and Number 12 is Jesus.\n\nDavid" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:32:28 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: (urth) Pantocrator\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nOne detail from the book suggests the possibility of an actual Jesus figure in the history of Urth. The Green Book.\nShadow VI:\n\"A green book hardly larger than my hand and no thicker \nthan my index finger appeared to be a collection of devotions, full of enameled pictures of ascetic pantocrators and hypostases with black halos and gemlike robes.\"\n\n\"Pantocrator\"\nThe Lexicon has an entry:\n\"those who have mastered the physical. Also, incarnations of the Pancreator. Those fit for spiritual and philosophical 'wrestling'. Originally, the word designated what we would call all around athletes; but it's figurative meanings have overwhelmed it's literal one\"\n\nbut everything I can find online has a much different definition.\n\nOrthodoxWiki is as good an example of the stuff I'm finding:\n\"The word Pantocrator is of Greek origin meaning \"ruler of all\". Christ Pantocrator is an icon of Christ represented full or half-length and full-faced. He holds the book of the Gospels in his left hand and blesses with his right hand.\n\nThe icon portrays Christ as the Righteous Judge and the Lover of Mankind, both at the same time. The Gospel is the book by which we are judged, and the blessing proclaims God's loving kindness toward us, showing us that he is giving us his forgiveness.\n\nAlthough ruler of all, Christ is not pictured with a crown or scepter as other kings of this world. The large open eyes look directly into the soul of the viewer. The high curved forehead shows wisdom. The long slender nose is a look of nobility, the small closed mouth, the silence of contemplation.\n\nIt is the tradition of the Church to depict \"God is with us\" by having the a large Pantocrator icon inside of the central dome, or ceiling of the church.\n\nThe oldest known Pantocrator icon was written in the sixth century. It was preserved in the monastery of St. Catherine in the Sinai desert. This remote location enabled the image to survive the iconoclastic era in Byzantine history (726-815) when most icons were destroyed. \"\n\n(I would emphasize those St. Catherine and Byzantine words if I could, if only for tangental coincidence)\n\nI think the \"Ruler and Judge of All\" is probably more apt than \"master of the physical\". The Green book contains \"ascetic pantocrators\". Look up Byzantine icons of Christ Pantocrator. he's very aesetic indeed. Byzantine art is FULL of gilded and enamel Pantocrators with Christ as the visage.\n\nIn addition, the Lexicon mentions \"incarnations of the Pancreator\".\nPancreator is a common word in the Urth cycle, found in each book, but Pantocrator is only used that once. Pancreator obviously means Creator of All. So, Pantocrator is a hypostasis of the Creator of All. Much more than just a spiritual wrestling ascetic. \nSo, then Pantocrator would seemingly be better understood as the Creator of All as Judge of All. And with that we come to the apocalyptic aspect of Christ. he must bring about judgment in one instance, and must advocate for humanity in another instance.\n\nAnyway, all this is to show that there is an analogue to the Christ myth present in the culture of Urth. \n\nalso,\nSword VIII\n\"That night in the jacal it was not brilliant, but it glowed with so deep a blue that the light itself seemed almost a clearer darkness. Of all the names of the Conciliator, the one that is, I believe, least used, and which has always seemed the most puzzling to me, is that of Black Sun. Since that night, I have felt myself almost to comprehend it.\"\n\n\"Black Sun\". \"Midnight Sun\" sun is a concept that comes up in estoteric works and is usually described as a symbol for Christ. I can't source that though, just something I've gathered over the years. \n\n~SonOfWitz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7714.72.171.0.140.1228414189.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:09:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<49381C85.8030900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would be pretty crazy to have a photo of Neil Armstrong survive the\ngazillions of years, but not Christianity and its imagery. Especially\nsince Nessus is Byzantium," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nessus is Buenos Aires. The society of the Commonwealth is based upon the\nByzantine Empire.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041019x4c1e4341i4f2bb296502b0173@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:19:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<49381C85.8030900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This thread is fascinating.\n\nWitz is pretty sure that Severian is Jesus because he's bringing about an\napocatastatis (even if this isn't quite a fair description of the plot of\nUrth, and even if apocatastasis is a Christian heresy.)\n\nDavid is convinced that Severian is more like a Pelagian idea of Jesus, even\nthough Severian is a pretty Bad Example for how to live one's life.\n\nThe two conceptions of Jesus don't really have much in common--Pelagius's\nMoral Teacher/Good Example is fundamentally NOT engaged in some kind of\nmystical atonement.\n\nAs for me, I will continue to beat the drum that Severian is supposed to\nevoke Christ so as to draw a contrast. His apocastastatis is a puny one,\nhis moral example is poor, he has no Crucifixion.\n\nBut he does heal people, and he fits the Messiah archetype better than many\nof the other thousand faces." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nIt would be pretty crazy to have a photo of Neil Armstrong survive the gazillions of years, but not Christianity and its imagery. Especially since Nessus is Byzantium, and Severian is clearly describing Byzantine icon imagery. The Pantocrator is the typical Byzantine image of Christ we all have seen. (I'm not sure about the Lexicon's definition---it seems to conflate pantocrator and pankration in a way Wolfe might approve of but is not indicated here.) I'd read it more or less literally.\n\nBut unlike in Byzantium, Christianity is not the state religion of the Commonwealth---not quite. God is the Outsider there, and whoever the people worship, they locate temporal power in the person of the Autarch and the cacogens who prop him up. The Increate is spoken of by the people, but is almost a gnostic or at least anti-state figure in TBotNS. He doesn't openly run things by \"His\" will (the way he does for GWB and some of my Baptist relatives).\n\nSee http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/hypostas.html for a text referencing hypostasis, the other word your passage indicates, and see if it rings a bell. (It does for me.)\n\nThe Black Sun is the true divine power who is so distant from us that the light of day hides him (just as in the Whorl, he cannot be seen because he is outside the hull.) The Archons are the rulers of \"near space,\" if you will. I'd guess they correspond to the Heirodules. They have nothing to do with the Increate---they serve him as slaves, no less than do Abaia's lords.\n\nWolfe seems to appreciate alternative theologies. This goes along with the Pelasgian idea of Christ being not a Big Deal but merely the Best Example (i.e., Epitome) of Man. So there are pantocrators, not The Pantocrator. It's kind of like having a deck of cards celebrating 100,000 years of messiahs, and Number 12 is Jesus.\n\nDavid\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:32:28 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: (urth) Pantocrator\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nOne detail from the book suggests the possibility of an actual Jesus figure in the history of Urth. The Green Book.\nShadow VI:\n\"A green book hardly larger than my hand and no thicker\nthan my index finger appeared to be a collection of devotions, full of enameled pictures of ascetic pantocrators and hypostases with black halos and gemlike robes.\"\n\n\"Pantocrator\"\nThe Lexicon has an entry:\n\"those who have mastered the physical. Also, incarnations of the Pancreator. Those fit for spiritual and philosophical 'wrestling'. Originally, the word designated what we would call all around athletes; but it's figurative meanings have overwhelmed it's literal one\"\n\nbut everything I can find online has a much different definition.\n\nOrthodoxWiki is as good an example of the stuff I'm finding:\n\"The word Pantocrator is of Greek origin meaning \"ruler of all\". Christ Pantocrator is an icon of Christ represented full or half-length and full-faced. He holds the book of the Gospels in his left hand and blesses with his right hand.\n\nThe icon portrays Christ as the Righteous Judge and the Lover of Mankind, both at the same time. The Gospel is the book by which we are judged, and the blessing proclaims God's loving kindness toward us, showing us that he is giving us his forgiveness.\n\nAlthough ruler of all, Christ is not pictured with a crown or scepter as other kings of this world. The large open eyes look directly into the soul of the viewer. The high curved forehead shows wisdom. The long slender nose is a look of nobility, the small closed mouth, the silence of contemplation.\n\nIt is the tradition of the Church to depict \"God is with us\" by having the a large Pantocrator icon inside of the central dome, or ceiling of the church.\n\nThe oldest known Pantocrator icon was written in the sixth century. It was preserved in the monastery of St. Catherine in the Sinai desert. This remote location enabled the image to survive the iconoclastic era in Byzantine history (726-815) when most icons were destroyed. \"\n\n(I would emphasize those St. Catherine and Byzantine words if I could, if only for tangental coincidence)\n\nI think the \"Ruler and Judge of All\" is probably more apt than \"master of the physical\". The Green book contains \"ascetic pantocrators\". Look up Byzantine icons of Christ Pantocrator. he's very aesetic indeed. Byzantine art is FULL of gilded and enamel Pantocrators with Christ as the visage.\n\nIn addition, the Lexicon mentions \"incarnations of the Pancreator\".\nPancreator is a common word in the Urth cycle, found in each book, but Pantocrator is only used that once. Pancreator obviously means Creator of All. So, Pantocrator is a hypostasis of the Creator of All. Much more than just a spiritual wrestling ascetic.\nSo, then Pantocrator would seemingly be better understood as the Creator of All as Judge of All. And with that we come to the apocalyptic aspect of Christ. he must bring about judgment in one instance, and must advocate for humanity in another instance.\n\nAnyway, all this is to show that there is an analogue to the Christ myth present in the culture of Urth.\n\nalso,\nSword VIII\n\"That night in the jacal it was not brilliant, but it glowed with so deep a blue that the light itself seemed almost a clearer darkness. Of all the names of the Conciliator, the one that is, I believe, least used, and which has always seemed the most puzzling to me, is that of Black Sun. Since that night, I have felt myself almost to comprehend it.\"\n\n\"Black Sun\". \"Midnight Sun\" sun is a concept that comes up in estoteric works and is usually described as a symbol for Christ. I can't source that though, just something I've gathered over the years.\n\n~SonOfWitz\n\n\n\n ------------------------------\n\navast! Antivirus : Outbound message clean.\n\nVirus Database (VPS): 081203-0, 12/03/2008\nTested on: 12/4/2008 1:08:06 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493820F5.1050402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:27:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041019x4c1e4341i4f2bb296502b0173@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As to that, I'd guess that the Christ myth contains all those myths---it is constructed of them. That's not quite the same as saying there is no difference, but it's close. The biggest difference is obviously going to be the close association with a monotheistic entity vs a position on a pantheon, however prominent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:06:58 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But why is the death and resurrection stuff in New Sun more\n\"Christian\" and less \"generic dying/returning god\"? Sure, individual\nevents (both encounters with Typhon, for example) recall Christ's\nbiography, but in terms of being the victory of Day over Night, and\nOrder over Chaos, Severian is as much Horus or Mithras or Marduk as he\nis Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nWell, I'd argue, again, that he brings about a sort of Apocatastasis.\n\nI'd also argue that those myths your talking about are PROBABLY all talking about the same principle. Horus and Mithras and Marduk are very like Christ, if you look at the symbols and try to abstract what those symbols are trying to talk explain. They're generally Regenerative Solar Healers who right a wrong.\n\nAll of these myths are made by HUMAN minds trying to understand these cosmological principles. Some may be more or less Divinely Inspired, but they are all the product of HUMAN writers. I think they are generally trying to describe, from their vantage point, something that most every culture has felt. Wolfe has just done his own take." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:31:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<493820F5.1050402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with you Dave, especially here:\n\n\"It's kind of like having a deck of cards celebrating 100,000 years of messiahs, and Number 12 is Jesus.\"\n\nI do take exception to the part about the state religion. I don't think the religion of the Conciliator / New Sun is named, but it is clearly the state religion because prayers are made during State sanctioned Executions. I quoted that in a previous thread.\n\nI have read the Hypostasis of the Archons you linked to, though I don't get all of it. Secret Chiefs 3 has a song by that title, inspired by such ideas.\nI illustrated the album that it is on, Book of Horizons, for what it's worth.\nit's a gnarly metal song, but the lyrics are awesome and densly packed:\n\nlyrics by Trey Spruance\n\n\"You corpse animators, charcoal burners,\nMoulders of wax, adherants to the Seen\n\nThe Black Hand pushes\nYour- agnostic reflex\nYou- automatons\nOf- the animatronic sham\n\nYou're planted in the Garden of\nEarthly Corporate Temple Messiah\n\n\nThe baby-crackers boomed\nAnd echoed off the Bardo\nLike half-assed Prometheans\nWith stupid macrame crowns\n\nSaran-wrapped neurotic SMILE's\nAround the Vajra Hell\nAnd sold the \"goddess\" back to a world\nAlready drowning in Bohemian Snake Oil\n\nDraw open the curtains of the Abyss\nWhere Mother and Father can't\nKeep up appearances\n\nThey switched to Merck-Amphetamines\nOur Fearless Leaders have\nPacked their bags for Babel\n\nAnd from that PR tower\nThey shine the beacon down\nUpon the vampirized world\n\nWhere corpse-fucker \"artists\" back-engineer\nTheir stupid props to attract the dim sparks\nBack to the dungheap\n& now they all shovel shit\nDown the throat of their beloved Moloch\n\nI've watched the best minds of my generation\nProstrate themselves before the myth of\nProgressive Evolution\nLike a bunch of fucking dressed-up rats\nSpreading \"civilization\" like it's the plague\n\nAll points of view\nAre points of sale\nIn the Market of the Visible\nEquipped with Grand Scale Optics\nTranshorizon offshore nations\nOffer you the best in False Frontiers\n\nA pseudo-individual\nIs a resource to be mined\nLike any other product\nOnly, this one sells itself\n\n\nWhere Good is the Harness of the Slave\nAnd Evil is the lash of the Overseer\nThe Master takes no heed\n(but where is there such a Master?)\n\nUnder watchful eye of the Unholy See\nYou Obey Your Thirst like cap-\nTive dogs, desires \"liberated\", free\n\nSubstitute Horizons, full-screen\nThird world population transfer, no need\nFetishized, Colonized, free\nProduce the new location\nDownload it to their screen\n\nHollywood Triumphant\nWe'll burn your Holy Land\nAnd give you virtual space\nHollywood Triumphant\nPanoptical Surveillance\nMurdered human race\n\n\nBehold the Antagonist,\nOn the Throne of this world\nWho dares help him\nBuild in the House of God?\nThese mortifyers are\nSucked dry by the Druj\nOf their cryptotheocratic nightmares\n\nSo who will defend the Temple?\nNO ONE! NO ONE! NO ONE!\nBurn it down!\n\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would be pretty crazy to have a photo of Neil Armstrong survive the gazillions of years, but not Christianity and its imagery. Especially since Nessus is Byzantium, and Severian is clearly describing Byzantine icon imagery. The Pantocrator is the typical Byzantine image of Christ we all have seen. (I'm not sure about the Lexicon's definition---it seems to conflate pantocrator and pankration in a way Wolfe might approve of but is not indicated here.) I'd read it more or less literally.\n\nBut unlike in Byzantium, Christianity is not the state religion of the Commonwealth---not quite. God is the Outsider there, and whoever the people worship, they locate temporal power in the person of the Autarch and the cacogens who prop him up. The Increate is spoken of by the people, but is almost a gnostic or at least anti-state figure in TBotNS. He doesn't openly run things by \"His\" will (the way he does for GWB and some of my Baptist relatives).\n\nSee http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/hypostas.html for a text referencing hypostasis, the other word your passage indicates, and see if it rings a bell. (It does for me.)\n\nThe Black Sun is the true divine power who is so distant from us that the light of day hides him (just as in the Whorl, he cannot be seen because he is outside the hull.) The Archons are the rulers of \"near space,\" if you will. I'd guess they correspond to the Heirodules. They have nothing to do with the Increate---they serve him as slaves, no less than do Abaia's lords.\n\nWolfe seems to appreciate alternative theologies. This goes along with the Pelasgian idea of Christ being not a Big Deal but merely the Best Example (i.e., Epitome) of Man. So there are pantocrators, not The Pantocrator. It's kind of like having a deck of cards celebrating 100,000 years of messiahs, and Number 12 is Jesus.\n\nDavid\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:32:28 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: (urth) Pantocrator" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49382668.9010500@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:50:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John---\n\nThat's exactly right, as far as I'm concerned. Severian is a kind of apocalyptic tattooed biker Jesus! (There's an inspiration for the graphic novel.)\n\nOf course this doesn't mean Pelagianism necessarily has to be swallowed whole, and I wouldn't even know if it was or not. But your comment does make me wonder whether Severian really does participate in an atonement at all. He is merely molded, judged, and cast aside; his life is not his own but he does live---quite a bit.\n\nAnd more than he would have if he had been allowed to drown in Gyoll because no subtle angels desired that his life continue. He's more of a faery consort, chosen, taken, and spat back to Urth a generation later. \n\nPer the previous thread, he seems more connected to the Second Coming and Judgment as \"Urth's executioner\" than to a sacrificed Sun God. His deaths and resurrections are more plot puzzles than they are climaxes---exactly as you say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:19:33 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0812041019x4c1e4341i4f2bb296502b0173 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThis thread is fascinating.\n\nWitz is pretty sure that Severian is Jesus because he's bringing about an\napocatastatis (even if this isn't quite a fair description of the plot of\nUrth, and even if apocatastasis is a Christian heresy.)\n\nDavid is convinced that Severian is more like a Pelagian idea of Jesus, even\nthough Severian is a pretty Bad Example for how to live one's life.\n\nThe two conceptions of Jesus don't really have much in common--Pelagius's\nMoral Teacher/Good Example is fundamentally NOT engaged in some kind of\nmystical atonement.\n\nAs for me, I will continue to beat the drum that Severian is supposed to\nevoke Christ so as to draw a contrast. His apocastastatis is a puny one,\nhis moral example is poor, he has no Crucifixion.\n\nBut he does heal people, and he fits the Messiah archetype better than many\nof the other thousand faces." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:57:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<49382668.9010500@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 10:19 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\n\nThis thread is fascinating.\n\nWitz is pretty sure that Severian is Jesus because he's bringing about an\napocatastatis (even if this isn't quite a fair description of the plot of\nUrth, and even if apocatastasis is a Christian heresy.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have said AGAIN, and AGAIN that I'm NOT saying Severian IS JESUS.\nif you haven't got that, I'm not sure I should bother trying to explain it YET AGAIN.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041059x7766b8b3va5d1c6924efc4326@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T18:59:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:\n\n\nI have said AGAIN, and AGAIN that I'm NOT saying Severian IS JESUS.\nif you haven't got that, I'm not sure I should bother trying to explain it YET AGAIN.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All I'm saying is that I don't think Severian brings about an\napocatastasis, and if he did, it wouldn't necessarily make him\n\"Christ-like.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T19:19:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041059x7766b8b3va5d1c6924efc4326@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have said AGAIN, and AGAIN that I'm NOT saying Severian IS JESUS.\nif you haven't got that, I'm not sure I should bother trying to explain it YET AGAIN.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All I'm saying is that I don't think Severian brings about an\napocatastasis, and if he did, it wouldn't necessarily make him\n\"Christ-like.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fine, but don't misstate what I'm trying to say.\nI've made it very clear I'm trying to distinguish some principle of Christ abstracted from Jesus.\n\n\nSo, are there a lot of other mythological characters that:\nhave a second coming (Concilliator to NewSun)\nRaise the dead, heal the sick, turn water into wine, die and are resurrected.\n\n\nwe can't really speak to Jesus's second coming because it hasn't happened, whereas the Concilitors HAS.\n\nSure, the Christian notion of the Apocalypse involves Salvation of Humanity, which Severian clearly has NOT brought about. I've used the word Apocatastasis because it indicates a dramatic return to primordial conditions.\none definition of the word I find is this:\n\"(Gr., apokatastasis) 1. the hope in all things reconciled 2. the original gospel 3. orthodox christian theology that eventually all go to heaven 4. universalism 5. rendering certain translations, conceptions, and doctrines of \"forever\" and \"hell\" to be inaccurate. \"\n\nwhich seems to be how you might be reading it.\n\nBut I'm coming at it from these definitions:\nApocatastasis or apokatastasis (from Greek: apo, from; kata, down; histemi, stand - literally, \"restoration\" or \"return\") \n\nand:\nApocatastasis (pronounced /??po?k??t?st’s?s/) is a Greek word (?????????????) meaning either reconstitution or restitution[1] or restoration to the original or primordial condition.[2]\n\nSeverian DEFINITELY restores things to a primordial condition.\n\n\n\nAgain,\nthis story is sort of a microcosm of much larger ideas. It does not completely illustrate every idea of Christian theology. I'm sure glad it doesn't either, because we already have the bible." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041122n34124d9cn6523e06d5f1154a4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T19:22:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fine, Severian hits a reset button.\n\nBut that has nothing to do with Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have said AGAIN, and AGAIN that I'm NOT saying Severian IS JESUS.\nif you haven't got that, I'm not sure I should bother trying to explain it YET AGAIN.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All I'm saying is that I don't think Severian brings about an\napocatastasis, and if he did, it wouldn't necessarily make him\n\"Christ-like.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fine, but don't misstate what I'm trying to say.\nI've made it very clear I'm trying to distinguish some principle of Christ abstracted from Jesus.\n\n\nSo, are there a lot of other mythological characters that:\nhave a second coming (Concilliator to NewSun)\nRaise the dead, heal the sick, turn water into wine, die and are resurrected.\n\n\nwe can't really speak to Jesus's second coming because it hasn't happened, whereas the Concilitors HAS.\n\nSure, the Christian notion of the Apocalypse involves Salvation of Humanity, which Severian clearly has NOT brought about. I've used the word Apocatastasis because it indicates a dramatic return to primordial conditions.\none definition of the word I find is this:\n\"(Gr., apokatastasis) 1. the hope in all things reconciled 2. the original gospel 3. orthodox christian theology that eventually all go to heaven 4. universalism 5. rendering certain translations, conceptions, and doctrines of \"forever\" and \"hell\" to be inaccurate. \"\n\nwhich seems to be how you might be reading it.\n\nBut I'm coming at it from these definitions:\nApocatastasis or apokatastasis (from Greek: apo, from; kata, down; histemi, stand - literally, \"restoration\" or \"return\")\n\nand:\nApocatastasis (pronounced /??po?k??t?st’s?s/) is a Greek word (?????????????) meaning either reconstitution or restitution[1] or restoration to the original or primordial condition.[2]\n\nSeverian DEFINITELY restores things to a primordial condition.\n\n\n\nAgain,\nthis story is sort of a microcosm of much larger ideas. It does not completely illustrate every idea of Christian theology. I'm sure glad it doesn't either, because we already have the bible.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T19:39:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041122n34124d9cn6523e06d5f1154a4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fine, Severian hits a reset button.\n\nBut that has nothing to do with Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, there are certainly no Christological symbols in the Book of the New Sun and Christ is NOT a Solar diety.\n\nhttp://www.spraypaintstencils.com/a-zlistings/3-wise-monkeys-image.gif" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49383225.5000307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-04T19:40:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz---\n\nTalk about syncretism!\n\nThis line: \nYou corpse animators, charcoal burners,\nMoulders of wax, adherants to the Seen\n\nreminds me of the villagers Severian and Burgundafara meet, who refuse to look at Severian. (\"Look, that you may see me.\") Animism and witchcraft seem strong in all ages of Urth (Zama, TUotNS), and these people worship the Demiurge, not the Increate.\n\nI accept your observation about the state religion of the Autarchy. However, the Black Sun must mean SOMETHING. And while I can't prove it except by pointing to what I perceive as a certain absence, I can't imagine this religion as being alive in any way. It might be more accurate to say it's PURELY a \"state religion,\" which is almost the same as calling it dead. The forms survive, but do the people engage with it?\n\nThe people of the Commonwealth don't seem to function on faith, but on knowledge (gnosis) and a suspicion of the seen. The people want something more than the Commonwealth can give. Think of the people of Typhon's time who say (I paraphrase), \"We keep sacrificing, but the gods are assholes.\" \n\nContrast this with TBotLS, in which religion is more explicitly and closely examined as a means of state control which becomes the means of state dissolution. Silk has faith." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:31:18 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041147r47b9674ek128ad05d9a15c16e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T19:47:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also not what I said.\n\nBut I guess I have to put it all in one place. Severian's Planetary\nReset/Genocide is not a way in which he resembles Christ, except maybe\nas a parody or travesty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fine, Severian hits a reset button.\n\nBut that has nothing to do with Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "yeah, there are certainly no Christological symbols in the Book of the New Sun and Christ is NOT a Solar diety.\n\nhttp://www.spraypaintstencils.com/a-zlistings/3-wise-monkeys-image.gif\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T19:51:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041147r47b9674ek128ad05d9a15c16e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also not what I said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "sorry. too much coffee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I guess I have to put it all in one place. Severian's Planetary\nReset/Genocide is not a way in which he resembles Christ, except maybe\nas a parody or travesty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "or maybe as a warped reflection, which is more or less what I'm suggesting.\n\nAs I've said, I'm no theologian, but what does the Apocalypse mean to those left behind? It sucks to be them, no?\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fine, Severian hits a reset button.\n\nBut that has nothing to do with Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "yeah, there are certainly no Christological symbols in the Book of the New Sun and Christ is NOT a Solar diety.\n\nhttp://www.spraypaintstencils.com/a-zlistings/3-wise-monkeys-image.gif\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812041155t7d29069apf12a1b7ba3a5f759@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T19:55:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041147r47b9674ek128ad05d9a15c16e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, is Christ's Mass Genocide at the second coming not 'Christlike?'\n\nI suppose you can argue that there is also the salvation of souls with that\nApocolypse as opposed to Urth's. However, I don't think you can write that\nout of New Sun. We don't know what happens to everyone's soul on Urth when\nit's destroyed, but, presumably, if this a world in which God exists, then\nSOMETHING happens to those souls. They are not all extinguished forever.\nSome may go to DIS or hell or whatever (unless DIS is just pluto, in which\ncase, I guess those billions of souls don't go there really). Just because\nWolfe doesn't specifically mention what happens to peoples souls when Urth\nis destroyed doesn't mean there isn't some sort of redemmption for them.\n\nJust as the souls at the end of time, when Jesus comes again, go one place\nor another. Setting fire to the fields and seperating the wheat from the\nchaff and all that.\n\nI don't think Witz is saying Sev IS Christ, but certainly, I don't think\nhe's meant as a foil to show how un Christlike he is. Wait, that sentence\ndidn't make sense.\n\nAll I'm sayin', as Witz seems to be too, there are a whole hell of a lot of\nChrist 'like' elements to Sev's story. And the wholesale Destruction of\nUrth is something that seems to be coming with the Second Coming of Jesus\ntoo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:47 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nAlso not what I said.\n\nBut I guess I have to put it all in one place. Severian's Planetary\nReset/Genocide is not a way in which he resembles Christ, except maybe\nas a parody or travesty.\n\nOn 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fine, Severian hits a reset button.\n\nBut that has nothing to do with Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "yeah, there are certainly no Christological symbols in the Book of the\nNew Sun and Christ is NOT a Solar diety.\n\nhttp://www.spraypaintstencils.com/a-zlistings/3-wise-monkeys-image.gif\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041155x4044c55dq6bcc24b535f6f7fd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T19:55:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe is Catholic, so I doubt he believes in the Rapture. There\nshouldn't be anyone \"left behind.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also not what I said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "sorry. too much coffee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But I guess I have to put it all in one place. Severian's Planetary\nReset/Genocide is not a way in which he resembles Christ, except maybe\nas a parody or travesty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or maybe as a warped reflection, which is more or less what I'm suggesting.\n\nAs I've said, I'm no theologian, but what does the Apocalypse mean to those left behind? It sucks to be them, no?\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Fine, Severian hits a reset button.\n\nBut that has nothing to do with Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "yeah, there are certainly no Christological symbols in the Book of the New Sun and Christ is NOT a Solar diety.\n\nhttp://www.spraypaintstencils.com/a-zlistings/3-wise-monkeys-image.gif\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T19:57:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041155x4044c55dq6bcc24b535f6f7fd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz---\n\nTalk about syncretism!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely what I'm suggesting is a very syncretic look at the cosmologies in theologies. I don't think syncretism is the best path for the seeker, but it sure seems to work well for writers who would warp and recontextualize myth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This line: \nYou corpse animators, charcoal burners,\nMoulders of wax, adherants to the Seen\n\nreminds me of the villagers Severian and Burgundafara meet, who refuse to look at Severian. (\"Look, that you may see me.\") Animism and witchcraft seem strong in all ages of Urth (Zama, TUotNS), and these people worship the Demiurge, not the Increate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I need to reread still.\nDemiurgos is a slippery subject I suppose. But they pay feasance to the Increate, no?, not to a named god like Yaweh (the Demiurge for the Gnostics)\n\nI'm not sure I see the gnostic angle here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I accept your observation about the state religion of the Autarchy. However, the Black Sun must mean SOMETHING. And while I can't prove it except by pointing to what I perceive as a certain absence, I can't imagine this religion as being alive in any way. It might be more accurate to say it's PURELY a \"state religion,\" which is almost the same as calling it dead. The forms survive, but do the people engage with it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, this nuance works fine.\nand goes along with my idea that the Guild is the like an Inquisition that has been absorbed by the state, lost it's purpose, but kept the trappings.\n\nThe Black Sun does mean something. I think it has to do with the Dark Night of the Soul, as well as a sort of mystical paradox that can only be understood by framing the paradox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The people of the Commonwealth don't seem to function on faith, but on knowledge (gnosis) and a suspicion of the seen. The people want something more than the Commonwealth can give. Think of the people of Typhon's time who say (I paraphrase), \"We keep sacrificing, but the gods are assholes.\" \n\nContrast this with TBotLS, in which religion is more explicitly and closely examined as a means of state control which becomes the means of state dissolution. Silk has faith." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't wait to read TBotLS. coming as soon as I finish Urth.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 18:31:18 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041159t6fefd7b7i12e53c41bcc45047@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T19:59:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812041155t7d29069apf12a1b7ba3a5f759@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Jordon Flato wrote:\nSo, is Christ's Mass Genocide at the second coming not 'Christlike?'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not exactly sure that's a fair way to describe the Second Coming...the\nEnd of the Universe is naturally a \"mass genocide\" in a sense, but a\nvery limited one..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose you can argue that there is also the salvation of souls with that\nApocolypse as opposed to Urth's. However, I don't think you can write that\nout of New Sun. We don't know what happens to everyone's soul on Urth when\nit's destroyed, but, presumably, if this a world in which God exists, then\nSOMETHING happens to those souls. They are not all extinguished forever.\nSome may go to DIS or hell or whatever" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yes, but neither Severian nor, it seems, Tzadkiel is the master\nof life and death. They have no sure knowledge of life \"on the other\nside,\" nor any authority over creation the way a divine being does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(unless DIS is just pluto, in which\ncase, I guess those billions of souls don't go there really). Just because\nWolfe doesn't specifically mention what happens to peoples souls when Urth\nis destroyed doesn't mean there isn't some sort of redemmption for them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It'd be nice to have some textual evidence, though, wouldn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just as the souls at the end of time, when Jesus comes again, go one place\nor another. Setting fire to the fields and seperating the wheat from the\nchaff and all that.\n\nI don't think Witz is saying Sev IS Christ, but certainly, I don't think\nhe's meant as a foil to show how un Christlike he is. Wait, that sentence\ndidn't make sense.\n\nAll I'm sayin', as Witz seems to be too, there are a whole hell of a lot of\nChrist 'like' elements to Sev's story. And the wholesale Destruction of\nUrth is something that seems to be coming with the Second Coming of Jesus\ntoo.\n\nOn Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:47 AM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also not what I said.\n\nBut I guess I have to put it all in one place. Severian's Planetary\nReset/Genocide is not a way in which he resembles Christ, except maybe\nas a parody or travesty.\n\n\n\n\nOn 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Fine, Severian hits a reset button.\n\nBut that has nothing to do with Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "yeah, there are certainly no Christological symbols in the Book of the\nNew Sun and Christ is NOT a Solar diety." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.spraypaintstencils.com/a-zlistings/3-wise-monkeys-image.gif" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:01:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041159t6fefd7b7i12e53c41bcc45047@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gene Wolfe is Catholic, so I doubt he believes in the Rapture. There\nshouldn't be anyone \"left behind.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know much about the different Sects beliefs.\nso, what happens in the second coming to the non believers?\n\nbut Jordon just framed it better than I did.\nand he's right that the Narrators ignorance of the souls of the dead of Urth does NOT indicate that there was no salvation of their souls.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also not what I said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "sorry. too much coffee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But I guess I have to put it all in one place. Severian's Planetary\nReset/Genocide is not a way in which he resembles Christ, except maybe\nas a parody or travesty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "or maybe as a warped reflection, which is more or less what I'm suggesting.\n\nAs I've said, I'm no theologian, but what does the Apocalypse mean to those left behind? It sucks to be them, no?\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:05:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, is Christ's Mass Genocide at the second coming not 'Christlike?'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not exactly sure that's a fair way to describe the Second Coming...the\nEnd of the Universe is naturally a \"mass genocide\" in a sense, but a\nvery limited one..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose you can argue that there is also the salvation of souls with that\nApocolypse as opposed to Urth's. However, I don't think you can write that\nout of New Sun. We don't know what happens to everyone's soul on Urth when\nit's destroyed, but, presumably, if this a world in which God exists, then\nSOMETHING happens to those souls. They are not all extinguished forever.\nSome may go to DIS or hell or whatever" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, yes, but neither Severian nor, it seems, Tzadkiel is the master\nof life and death. They have no sure knowledge of life \"on the other\nside,\" nor any authority over creation the way a divine being does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Do you know the meaning of that word Hierodule you use? I am Malrubius, and no Hierodule. Rather I serve those the Hierodules serve. Hierodule means holy slave. Do you think there can be slaves without masters?\" \n\nThe Hierogrammites are like Archangels doing the busy work of God.\nTzadkiel is not the demiurgos, nor the increate. He is yet a holy servant." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041205g61da728vecb50ed10ef53946@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:05:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gene Wolfe is Catholic, so I doubt he believes in the Rapture. There\nshouldn't be anyone \"left behind.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know much about the different Sects beliefs.\nso, what happens in the second coming to the non believers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Judgment, same as what happens to believers. Believers, of course,\nare expected to fare better--exactly how much better is a matter of\nsome debate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Also not what I said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "sorry. too much coffee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But I guess I have to put it all in one place. Severian's Planetary\nReset/Genocide is not a way in which he resembles Christ, except maybe\nas a parody or travesty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "or maybe as a warped reflection, which is more or less what I'm suggesting.\n\nAs I've said, I'm no theologian, but what does the Apocalypse mean to those left behind? It sucks to be them, no?\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041207m5cc184a4xc9b14aa327b3512@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:07:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/4/08, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So, is Christ's Mass Genocide at the second coming not 'Christlike?'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not exactly sure that's a fair way to describe the Second Coming...the\nEnd of the Universe is naturally a \"mass genocide\" in a sense, but a\nvery limited one..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I suppose you can argue that there is also the salvation of souls with that\nApocolypse as opposed to Urth's. However, I don't think you can write that\nout of New Sun. We don't know what happens to everyone's soul on Urth when\nit's destroyed, but, presumably, if this a world in which God exists, then\nSOMETHING happens to those souls. They are not all extinguished forever.\nSome may go to DIS or hell or whatever" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, yes, but neither Severian nor, it seems, Tzadkiel is the master\nof life and death. They have no sure knowledge of life \"on the other\nside,\" nor any authority over creation the way a divine being does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Do you know the meaning of that word Hierodule you use? I am Malrubius, and no Hierodule. Rather I serve those the Hierodules serve. Hierodule means holy slave. Do you think there can be slaves without masters?\"\n\nThe Hierogrammites are like Archangels doing the busy work of God.\nTzadkiel is not the demiurgos, nor the increate. He is yet a holy servant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So he says, and maybe so he believes. There are textual reasons, laid\nout at length by others, to doubt that Tzadkiel has any sort of\nmystical or special access to the Divine mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812041211h3f2df715ia9ce434bcb66f15a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:11:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041159t6fefd7b7i12e53c41bcc45047@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not exactly sure that's a fair way to describe the Second Coming...the\nEnd of the Universe is naturally a \"mass genocide\" in a sense, but a\nvery limited one..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough. But, the end of everything is a limited genocide? I guess you\ncan argue that, but there is always the ever present and tiring argument\nthat the billions of non-Christians slated to go to hell is about as bad as\nthe drowning of most of Urth. However, that is a surface level and facile\nargument that I'm not going to put forward. To me, that's about the level\nof \"if God is so good, how come he let's kids die\" argument, which I also\nthink is facile.\n\nI'm going to definitely concede that one area that Severian is very\nUNChristlike is that he isn't aware of his (possible) connection with the\nDivine plan. Christ certainly knows where his bread is buttered. Sev\ndoesn't. But again, at root this is all a \"Sev has some echos of the Christ\nMyth\" not \"Sev is actually Christ\".\n\nThe hair's we are splitting are getting so fine I'm gonna need a bigger\nscalpel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, yes, but neither Severian nor, it seems, Tzadkiel is the master\nof life and death. They have no sure knowledge of life \"on the other\nside,\" nor any authority over creation the way a divine being does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It'd be nice to have some textual evidence, though, wouldn't it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:19:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812041211h3f2df715ia9ce434bcb66f15a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So, is Christ's Mass Genocide at the second coming not 'Christlike?'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not exactly sure that's a fair way to describe the Second Coming...the\nEnd of the Universe is naturally a \"mass genocide\" in a sense, but a\nvery limited one..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I suppose you can argue that there is also the salvation of souls with that\nApocolypse as opposed to Urth's. However, I don't think you can write that\nout of New Sun. We don't know what happens to everyone's soul on Urth when\nit's destroyed, but, presumably, if this a world in which God exists, then\nSOMETHING happens to those souls. They are not all extinguished forever.\nSome may go to DIS or hell or whatever" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, yes, but neither Severian nor, it seems, Tzadkiel is the master\nof life and death. They have no sure knowledge of life \"on the other\nside,\" nor any authority over creation the way a divine being does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Do you know the meaning of that word Hierodule you use? I am Malrubius, and no Hierodule. Rather I serve those the Hierodules serve. Hierodule means holy slave. Do you think there can be slaves without masters?\"\n\nThe Hierogrammites are like Archangels doing the busy work of God.\nTzadkiel is not the demiurgos, nor the increate. He is yet a holy servant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So he says, and maybe so he believes. There are textual reasons, laid\nout at length by others, to doubt that Tzadkiel has any sort of\nmystical or special access to the Divine mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does Anyone have access?\nOne can serve without understanding.\nwe are all Tools." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041221i77986fc9rb1d82af2688bccac@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:21:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812041211h3f2df715ia9ce434bcb66f15a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My main point, in this and others of the conceededly tiresome threads\non this topic, has been to argue that the Gene Wolfe who depicts\nnon-Christian faiths so empathetically in Long Sun, Short Sun, Latro,\netc., is likely a big believer in so-called anonymous Christianity. I\nvery much doubt that he thinks that all of those people on Urth are\ngoing straight to Hell--just try to imagine Silk, for example,\nexplaining to Horn that everyone who doesn't follow the Outsider will\nburn eternally. It's jarring, and almost certainly not where Wolfe is\ngoing with the destruction of Urth.\n\nBecause of this, I don't see Severian's \"Christ-like\" characteristics\nas implying any kind of moral sanction for the Ushas choice unless\nthere's something deeper going on--a third layer, behind the\nHierogrammates, where the Increate is working some kind of subtle\nmagic. What this is, however, is a mystery I haven't solved yet.\n\nAnd so I get frustrated when, on this list, many who are not\nChristians themselves sort of imply that this monstrous act in the\nbook is something that I should just be gung-ho about because, well,\nthe Christian God is pretty much a monster Himself. I don't buy that,\nand I don't think Wolfe does, and I think it misses the mark in\nunderstanding the New Sun.\n\nAnyway, that's my take. I've said it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not exactly sure that's a fair way to describe the Second Coming...the\nEnd of the Universe is naturally a \"mass genocide\" in a sense, but a\nvery limited one..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fair enough. But, the end of everything is a limited genocide? I guess you\ncan argue that, but there is always the ever present and tiring argument\nthat the billions of non-Christians slated to go to hell is about as bad as\nthe drowning of most of Urth. However, that is a surface level and facile\nargument that I'm not going to put forward. To me, that's about the level\nof \"if God is so good, how come he let's kids die\" argument, which I also\nthink is facile.\n\nI'm going to definitely concede that one area that Severian is very\nUNChristlike is that he isn't aware of his (possible) connection with the\nDivine plan. Christ certainly knows where his bread is buttered. Sev\ndoesn't. But again, at root this is all a \"Sev has some echos of the Christ\nMyth\" not \"Sev is actually Christ\".\n\nThe hair's we are splitting are getting so fine I'm gonna need a bigger\nscalpel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, yes, but neither Severian nor, it seems, Tzadkiel is the master\nof life and death. They have no sure knowledge of life \"on the other\nside,\" nor any authority over creation the way a divine being does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It'd be nice to have some textual evidence, though, wouldn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:23:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041221i77986fc9rb1d82af2688bccac@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm going to definitely concede that one area that Severian is very\nUNChristlike is that he isn't aware of his (possible) connection with the\nDivine plan. Christ certainly knows where his bread is buttered. Sev\ndoesn't. But again, at root this is all a \"Sev has some echos of the Christ\nMyth\" not \"Sev is actually Christ\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes,\nif at any point I've said he is Christ, it was in the spirit of metaphor, just as you might say Inire is Daedalus. It seems like you can do that with anybody but Jesus Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The hair's we are splitting are getting so fine I'm gonna need a bigger\nscalpel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And again, the main hair I'm splitting is that the Story of Jesus Christ is itself a reflection of a cosmic principle. Can't we abstract that enough to realize that there are MANY myths talking about this same Energy, or Principle, or Entity, or Schizophrenia inducing Pink Beam of Light." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DB2727E-DD82-4DF3-869B-34363A075D2C@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:27:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041207m5cc184a4xc9b14aa327b3512@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:07 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nOn 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Hierogrammites are like Archangels doing the busy work of God.\nTzadkiel is not the demiurgos, nor the increate. He is yet a holy \nservant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So he says, and maybe so he believes. There are textual reasons, laid\nout at length by others, to doubt that Tzadkiel has any sort of\nmystical or special access to the Divine mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the Angel and the Eagle showed us that holy servants also \nmerely guess at the Increator's wishes, same as us chickens.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:36:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<4DB2727E-DD82-4DF3-869B-34363A075D2C@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And so I get frustrated when, on this list, many who are not\nChristians themselves sort of imply that this monstrous act in the\nbook is something that I should just be gung-ho about because, well,\nthe Christian God is pretty much a monster Himself. I don't buy that,\nand I don't think Wolfe does, and I think it misses the mark in" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is anyone asking you to get Gung Ho about it, or calling God a Monster?\nif so I've missed it.\nalso, if it's tedious, why bother?\n\nYou seem to be in the camp that views the flooding of Urth as a bad thing.\nIf the second coming or Apocatastasis are factored in the arguments, it's to show this notion of Reset to primordial conditions as a POSITIVE.\n\nThis is Death and Resurrection in a nutshell. a basic human understanding that life flowers out of death. Hence the Phoenix Throne of the Autarchs who 'might' bring about the New Sun. This comes up in EVERY culture.\n\nThe Flooding of Urth is NOT a negative act. It is intended for LONG TERM RESURRECTION of Humanity and those beings humanity created.\n\nONLY the shortsighted and selfish view it as a negative thing.\nI don't mean You, I mean the characters in the book who try to prevent the coming of the New Sun. \n\nI compare Severian with Kali just as readily, accept that there are MORE Christian symbols present, so the comparison to Christ is more pertinant and useful to understanding the books." } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812041237wf114a59oe60b35b2e6de8dd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:37:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041221i77986fc9rb1d82af2688bccac@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And so I get frustrated when, on this list, many who are not" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christians themselves sort of imply that this monstrous act in the\nbook is something that I should just be gung-ho about because, well,\nthe Christian God is pretty much a monster Himself. I don't buy that,\nand I don't think Wolfe does, and I think it misses the mark in\nunderstanding the New Sun.\n\nAnyway, that's my take. I've said it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can totally understand that. I wouldn't say the Christian God is a\nMonster at all. In fact, I think that, for myself (admittedly a\nnon-Christian, but not an Athiest or even Agnostic really) part of my\nunderstanding of the Absolute (for want of a better word) is an\nunderstanding of the 'impersonal' nature of destruction. That while the\nChristian God, in his old testament form, destorys the world so Noah can\nsurvive and give rise to a better humanity, or destorys Sodom because of\nit's wickedness, or encourage the Jews to smash the infants of their enemies\nupon th rocks...these things to not indicate Evil. The situation is bigger\nthan that. And the sorts of arguments where people try to 'disprove' or\n'invalidate' God in these terms are juvinille and unsublte. (And here, I'm\nnot attributing these arguments to you...the opposite actually).\n\nSo, for me, the destruction of Urth to create Ushas is not a monstrous act.\nIf there is no afterlife in New Sun, if the Increate isn't real (no matter\nhow conscious his servants are of his wishes), then the destruction of Ushas\nis a brutal and monstrous one. If the Increate is real, and there is some\nsort of Life of the Soul in the books (of which textual evidence you've\nasked for I would posit all of the discussion of the survival of Severian's\n'personality' through so many types of death, and the corridors of time\nthemsevles) then this act, the destruction of Urth, the 'hitting of the\nreset button' is no longer monstrous, but another instance of the Increate\nhitting the reset button like he did with Noah, or Sodom, or countless other\nexamples." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041250v33a6d8b4x72bf8d2456b31269@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T20:50:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812041237wf114a59oe60b35b2e6de8dd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can totally understand that. I wouldn't say the Christian God is a\nMonster at all. In fact, I think that, for myself (admittedly a\nnon-Christian, but not an Athiest or even Agnostic really) part of my\nunderstanding of the Absolute (for want of a better word) is an\nunderstanding of the 'impersonal' nature of destruction. That while the\nChristian God, in his old testament form, destorys the world so Noah can\nsurvive and give rise to a better humanity, or destorys Sodom because of\nit's wickedness, or encourage the Jews to smash the infants of their enemies\nupon th rocks...these things to not indicate Evil. The situation is bigger\nthan that. And the sorts of arguments where people try to 'disprove' or\n'invalidate' God in these terms are juvinille and unsublte. (And here, I'm\nnot attributing these arguments to you...the opposite actually)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We agree here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, for me, the destruction of Urth to create Ushas is not a monstrous act.\nIf there is no afterlife in New Sun, if the Increate isn't real (no matter\nhow conscious his servants are of his wishes), then the destruction of Ushas\nis a brutal and monstrous one. If the Increate is real, and there is some\nsort of Life of the Soul in the books (of which textual evidence you've\nasked for I would posit all of the discussion of the survival of Severian's\n'personality' through so many types of death, and the corridors of time\nthemsevles) then this act, the destruction of Urth, the 'hitting of the\nreset button' is no longer monstrous, but another instance of the Increate\nhitting the reset button like he did with Noah, or Sodom, or countless other\nexamples." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My point isn't that there's no Life of the Soul in the Urth books--I\nthink there pretty clearly is, at least of some sort.\n\nBut that Life of the Soul seems wholly divorced from the flooding of\nUrth. There is nothing literally redemptive about the destruction of\nUrth--it's just a big eugenics project, undertaken by artificial\nlifeforms who claim to be doing the will of God. I think the\ncomparison with Noah is much more apt than the comparison with the\nSecond Coming, and maybe the reading that Severian is \"the kind of\nMessiah humanity can produce,\" or maybe even \"the kind of Messiah\nhumanity deserves\" is dead-on.\n\nI'll just reply to Son of Witz here as well: if the Sun was dying for\nnatural causes, or because of the actions of Typhon, and if there was\nno feasible way to evacuate Urth to other settled planets, and the\ndestruction of Urth was the only way to cause this \"long term\nresurrection,\" then I would agree that it is a \"good thing\" in the\nultimate sense, and the casualties are unfortunately necessary.\n\nBut we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T21:02:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<4DB2727E-DD82-4DF3-869B-34363A075D2C@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2008, at 2:27 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nI thought the Angel and the Eagle showed us that holy servants also \nmerely guess at the Increator's wishes, same as us chickens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Er, Pancreator, or Increate.\n\nI'm getting too Jung for this.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T21:02:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll just reply to Son of Witz here as well: if the Sun was dying for\nnatural causes, or because of the actions of Typhon, and if there was\nno feasible way to evacuate Urth to other settled planets, and the\ndestruction of Urth was the only way to cause this \"long term\nresurrection,\" then I would agree that it is a \"good thing\" in the\nultimate sense, and the casualties are unfortunately necessary.\n\nBut we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see your points here, and they surely are a valid reading as well.\n\nbut,\nit's a metaphorical microcosm with stand-ins, and I think the reading I'm proposing is at least as valid.\n\nI suppose I just find it all a LOT less interesting to boil it down to a Self Preservation or Eugenics plan without the will of the Increate involved. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812041310r73cb5f99k7a3901220004942b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T21:10:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041250v33a6d8b4x72bf8d2456b31269@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the flood of Noah was eugenics too, in a way then. The cultures and\npeoples of Urth have lost there way in BotNS. They dying sun is a direct\nreflection (and cause, and reflection and cause and etc.) of the decaying\nnature of Urth society and it's people. Surely god could have done\nsomething to change the minds of the people of Noahs time, or something\nelse, rather than destroying them all. But he didn't. A new humanity was\nneeded. The Hierogrammates implated the worm because, ostensibly (and here\nI don't have the evidence at hand) Humanity was out of control. The\nHumanity of Typhons reign was heading in a satanic direction. Now, the\nconciliator comes along and sets things in a bit of a new direction, but the\nworld is still decaying, built upon the ruins of civilzations\npast...fragmented, disconnected, distant from the Increate. So, how would\ntaking all of these folks to other worlds be a better choice? Only if\nthere isn't a metaphisical aspect of the soul does saving their earthly\nbodies matter. If the race isn't destroyed, then the further generations of\nmankind will continue to degrade. You will have more Baldanders. You may\nhave the victory of the Acians. Who knows. But the direction the world is\nheaded in New Sun is not good. So, a return to paradise is needed. And\nlook what becomes of it. A peaceful society that breeds the Green Man, a\nrace completely at harmony with it's environment. Isn't that the 'good\nthing' in the ultimate sense that you are looking for? Or is the world of\nMaster Ash, where mankind has scattered again to the stars (those that could\nbe evacuated) and the world left to die in ice. That is the alternative to\nthe Flood. We see that future, and it is horrific.\n\nThe future of the Green Man IS the textual evidence of the goodness of the\nflood, in my opinion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll just reply to Son of Witz here as well: if the Sun was dying for\nnatural causes, or because of the actions of Typhon, and if there was\nno feasible way to evacuate Urth to other settled planets, and the\ndestruction of Urth was the only way to cause this \"long term\nresurrection,\" then I would agree that it is a \"good thing\" in the\nultimate sense, and the casualties are unfortunately necessary.\n\nBut we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041314t5cff559es4f9b0db95a0bebf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T21:14:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812041310r73cb5f99k7a3901220004942b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Jordon Flato wrote:\n\nBut the direction the world is\nheaded in New Sun is not good. So, a return to paradise is needed. And\nlook what becomes of it. A peaceful society that breeds the Green Man, a\nrace completely at harmony with it's environment. Isn't that the 'good\nthing' in the ultimate sense that you are looking for? Or is the world of\nMaster Ash, where mankind has scattered again to the stars (those that could\nbe evacuated) and the world left to die in ice. That is the alternative to\nthe Flood. We see that future, and it is horrific.\n\nThe future of the Green Man IS the textual evidence of the goodness of the\nflood, in my opinion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a bit at the end of Urth that strongly implies that the future\nthe Hierogrammates are aiming for is not the Green Man's future. I\ndon't think the Green Man is a midpoint between Severian's people and\nreengineered Hieros." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll just reply to Son of Witz here as well: if the Sun was dying for\nnatural causes, or because of the actions of Typhon, and if there was\nno feasible way to evacuate Urth to other settled planets, and the\ndestruction of Urth was the only way to cause this \"long term\nresurrection,\" then I would agree that it is a \"good thing\" in the\nultimate sense, and the casualties are unfortunately necessary.\n\nBut we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812041319u5dcbf6bbv660d262cef5a3c76@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T21:19:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041314t5cff559es4f9b0db95a0bebf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah. I'm currently re-reading Urth, so I'll look for that. Maybe, then,\nthat is evidence that it's the Increates will at work after all, since that\nseems to be the future Sev has helped to create, despite the Hirogrammates\naims, but I'll comment more (maybe!) when I've finished the read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:14 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nOn 12/4/08, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the direction the world is\nheaded in New Sun is not good. So, a return to paradise is needed. And\nlook what becomes of it. A peaceful society that breeds the Green Man, a\nrace completely at harmony with it's environment. Isn't that the 'good\nthing' in the ultimate sense that you are looking for? Or is the world\nof\nMaster Ash, where mankind has scattered again to the stars (those that\ncould\nbe evacuated) and the world left to die in ice. That is the alternative\nto\nthe Flood. We see that future, and it is horrific.\n\nThe future of the Green Man IS the textual evidence of the goodness of\nthe\nflood, in my opinion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a bit at the end of Urth that strongly implies that the future\nthe Hierogrammates are aiming for is not the Green Man's future. I\ndon't think the Green Man is a midpoint between Severian's people and\nreengineered Hieros." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'll just reply to Son of Witz here as well: if the Sun was dying for\nnatural causes, or because of the actions of Typhon, and if there was\nno feasible way to evacuate Urth to other settled planets, and the\ndestruction of Urth was the only way to cause this \"long term\nresurrection,\" then I would agree that it is a \"good thing\" in the\nultimate sense, and the casualties are unfortunately necessary.\n\nBut we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T21:30:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812041319u5dcbf6bbv660d262cef5a3c76@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the flood of Noah was eugenics too, in a way then. The cultures and\npeoples of Urth have lost there way in BotNS. They dying sun is a direct\nreflection (and cause, and reflection and cause and etc.) of the decaying\nnature of Urth society and it's people. Surely god could have done\nsomething to change the minds of the people of Noahs time, or something\nelse, rather than destroying them all. But he didn't. A new humanity was\nneeded. The Hierogrammates implated the worm because, ostensibly (and here\nI don't have the evidence at hand) Humanity was out of control. The\nHumanity of Typhons reign was heading in a satanic direction. Now, the\nconciliator comes along and sets things in a bit of a new direction, but the\nworld is still decaying, built upon the ruins of civilzations\npast...fragmented, disconnected, distant from the Increate. So, how would\ntaking all of these folks to other worlds be a better choice? Only if\nthere isn't a metaphisical aspect of the soul does saving their earthly\nbodies matter. If the race isn't destroyed, then the further generations of\nmankind will continue to degrade. You will have more Baldanders. You may\nhave the victory of the Acians. Who knows. But the direction the world is\nheaded in New Sun is not good. So, a return to paradise is needed. And\nlook what becomes of it. A peaceful society that breeds the Green Man, a\nrace completely at harmony with it's environment. Isn't that the 'good\nthing' in the ultimate sense that you are looking for? Or is the world of\nMaster Ash, where mankind has scattered again to the stars (those that could\nbe evacuated) and the world left to die in ice. That is the alternative to\nthe Flood. We see that future, and it is horrific.\n\nThe future of the Green Man IS the textual evidence of the goodness of the\nflood, in my opinion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Out of the ballpark, Jordon. Nice work!!!\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T22:16:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose I just find it all a LOT less interesting to boil it down to a Self Preservation or Eugenics plan without the will of the Increate involved. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(replying to myself because I want to post a question about an old mystery that this feeling above made me think about)\n\nHow do you Christian's resolve the Astrological correspondences with the Biblical story of Jesus Christ?\n\nThere are many books and videos out there that talk about the astrological correspondences. Unfortunately, the most widely viewed, and the first that comes to my mind, is the Zeitgeist film. There are many things wrong with that movie (though the last part about money is pretty good).\nlet's not get waylaid by the many problems, such as it's misrepresentation of some of the figures it would conflate with Christ, or its weak sourcing. (You can practically see the books in the filmmakers lap)\nbut the film presents the Astrological Correspondences fairly well.\n\nyou know the gist, right?\nThe Sun is Christ. Judas is Scorpio. The Judas Kiss is the Sun in Scorpio, which is then subsequently weaker (lower and lower in the horizon, and more distant), until it 'dies' a few days before Christmas, (seeming to stand still for 3 days) then coming back to life on Chrismas (seeming to move again, and ascending in the sky). and such like, with Easter being the Spring Equinox Fertility time.\n\nI may have sketched it poorly, but the correspondences are VERY strong, in a way that tests many people's faith. Surely Zeitgeist is trying to debunk Christianity in a big way, but these correspondences are there regardless of Zeitgeit's agenda. \n\nSo how do you feel about your myth being 'flattened' into a mere mechanistic universe with ignorant inhabitants who must anthropomorphize their life sustaining solar body as a Diety?\n\nSome Catholics say the sun does that because Christ did that.\nbut surely there were Astronomers charting this out before Jesus.\n\nPersonally, I find it hard to reconcile, and haven't quite. Yet Faith & Intuition tell me that there may be something to that idea, but one must move beyond the idea of Jesus in particular to this notion of Cosmic Principle that both Jesus and the Sun must represent. Yes, I'm saying the literal sun could be an instantiation of this. I'm not sure I believe it, but it's one of the only ways I can reconcile this myth with the astrological correspondences.\n\nanyone?\n\n~sonofwitz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041428o79e19d2ckd2e7f2c161a65ee2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T22:28:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose I just find it all a LOT less interesting to boil it down to a Self Preservation or Eugenics plan without the will of the Increate involved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(replying to myself because I want to post a question about an old mystery that this feeling above made me think about)\n\nHow do you Christian's resolve the Astrological correspondences with the Biblical story of Jesus Christ?\n\nThere are many books and videos out there that talk about the astrological correspondences. Unfortunately, the most widely viewed, and the first that comes to my mind, is the Zeitgeist film. There are many things wrong with that movie (though the last part about money is pretty good).\nlet's not get waylaid by the many problems, such as it's misrepresentation of some of the figures it would conflate with Christ, or its weak sourcing. (You can practically see the books in the filmmakers lap)\nbut the film presents the Astrological Correspondences fairly well.\n\nyou know the gist, right?\nThe Sun is Christ. Judas is Scorpio. The Judas Kiss is the Sun in Scorpio, which is then subsequently weaker (lower and lower in the horizon, and more distant), until it 'dies' a few days before Christmas, (seeming to stand still for 3 days) then coming back to life on Chrismas (seeming to move again, and ascending in the sky). and such like, with Easter being the Spring Equinox Fertility time.\n\nI may have sketched it poorly, but the correspondences are VERY strong, in a way that tests many people's faith. Surely Zeitgeist is trying to debunk Christianity in a big way, but these correspondences are there regardless of Zeitgeit's agenda." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you mean Easter, and I'm not especially impressed with the\ncorrespondences between, well, ANYTHING and astrology, because\nastrology is so deliberately ambivalent that it quite literally can\ncorrespond to anything. That's kind of its purpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So how do you feel about your myth being 'flattened' into a mere mechanistic universe with ignorant inhabitants who must anthropomorphize their life sustaining solar body as a Diety?\n\nSome Catholics say the sun does that because Christ did that.\nbut surely there were Astronomers charting this out before Jesus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is not every day I have the chance to quote Susan Cooper in an\nenlightening manner, so I will do so now. \"But not before God.\" If\nChristians are right about Christ, then His incarnation and sacrifice\nwere part of a plan forged outside of time itself, so the echoes of it\nin nature (solar occurrences, the turning of the seasons, butterflies,\nparthogenesis) predate not the Plan, but only its Occurrence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Personally, I find it hard to reconcile, and haven't quite. Yet Faith & Intuition tell me that there may be something to that idea, but one must move beyond the idea of Jesus in particular to this notion of Cosmic Principle that both Jesus and the Sun must represent. Yes, I'm saying the literal sun could be an instantiation of this. I'm not sure I believe it, but it's one of the only ways I can reconcile this myth with the astrological correspondences." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's certainly one faith." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "anyone?\n\n~sonofwitz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T22:58:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041428o79e19d2ckd2e7f2c161a65ee2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you mean Easter, and I'm not especially impressed with the\ncorrespondences between, well, ANYTHING and astrology, because\nastrology is so deliberately ambivalent that it quite literally can\ncorrespond to anything. That's kind of its purpose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*smacks forehead*\nI meant AstroNOMICAL correspondences.\nI'm talking about the ACTUAL movements of the sun here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So how do you feel about your myth being 'flattened' into a mere mechanistic universe with ignorant inhabitants who must anthropomorphize their life sustaining solar body as a Diety?\n\nSome Catholics say the sun does that because Christ did that.\nbut surely there were Astronomers charting this out before Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is not every day I have the chance to quote Susan Cooper in an\nenlightening manner, so I will do so now. \"But not before God.\" If\nChristians are right about Christ, then His incarnation and sacrifice\nwere part of a plan forged outside of time itself, so the echoes of it\nin nature (solar occurrences, the turning of the seasons, butterflies,\nparthogenesis) predate not the Plan, but only its Occurrence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, that's cool." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041526l401eca85s698e8edf1cc7f62@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T23:26:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You pretty clearly do mean astrological though, don't you? Otherwise\nwhat's the significance of the \"scorpion\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you mean Easter, and I'm not especially impressed with the\ncorrespondences between, well, ANYTHING and astrology, because\nastrology is so deliberately ambivalent that it quite literally can\ncorrespond to anything. That's kind of its purpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*smacks forehead*\nI meant AstroNOMICAL correspondences.\nI'm talking about the ACTUAL movements of the sun here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So how do you feel about your myth being 'flattened' into a mere\nmechanistic universe with ignorant inhabitants who must anthropomorphize\ntheir life sustaining solar body as a Diety?\n\nSome Catholics say the sun does that because Christ did that.\nbut surely there were Astronomers charting this out before Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is not every day I have the chance to quote Susan Cooper in an\nenlightening manner, so I will do so now. \"But not before God.\" If\nChristians are right about Christ, then His incarnation and sacrifice\nwere part of a plan forged outside of time itself, so the echoes of it\nin nature (solar occurrences, the turning of the seasons, butterflies,\nparthogenesis) predate not the Plan, but only its Occurrence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "yeah, that's cool.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-04T23:37:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041526l401eca85s698e8edf1cc7f62@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You pretty clearly do mean astrological though, don't you? Otherwise\nwhat's the significance of the \"scorpion\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no,\n\nthe houses of the Zodiac can be viewed apart from any Astrological interpretations. The House of Scorpio is a position in the heavens.\nOne does NOT have to buy into any astrology to say the Sun is in Scorpio. It just means the Sun is in that position of the sky.\n\nDo you know the stuff I'm talking about?\nhere's an article that sums it up fairly well. worth reading.\nI wont suggest watching Zeitgeist.\n\nhttp://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/bibleastrology.html\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812041556r6397b8b5t8896dc0e1ab85c3b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-04T23:56:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You misunderstand.\n\nAbsent their astrological connotations, this silly theory could not be\nseen to correspond to the Christ story at all.\n\nNor is the Crucifixion observed on December 22nd, as this theory\nrequires, or even \"three days\" before he resurrection--it's \"the third\nday\".\n\nPlus, I laughed at the Virgo = Mary bit. Not only is the gender wrong,\nbut Mary is venerated in January, March, May, November, and December\nas well as August\nand September, and her virginity is of course celebrated in December.\nIt a very silly theory, but creative, I'll give it that.\n\nIf you want me to, I can come up with an equally compelling theory\nthat the Christ story acts out the Chinese zodiac.\n\n inal message -\nNo, no, the houses of the Zodiac can be vi...\n\n\n\n\n\nSent from Gmail for mobile" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You pretty clearly do mean astrological though, don't you? Otherwise\nwhat's the significance of the \"scorpion\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, no,\n\nthe houses of the Zodiac can be viewed apart from any Astrological\ninterpretations. The House of Scorpio is a position in the heavens.\nOne does NOT have to buy into any astrology to say the Sun is in Scorpio. It\njust means the Sun is in that position of the sky.\n\nDo you know the stuff I'm talking about?\nhere's an article that sums it up fairly well. worth reading.\nI wont suggest watching Zeitgeist.\n\nhttp://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/bibleastrology.html\n\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ABE018C-10E3-40E1-BEF7-4541355D052C@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T02:46:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041556r6397b8b5t8896dc0e1ab85c3b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure about any of that.\nI don't mean to stand behind this theory, though I've seen better \npresentations by people more versed in the subject than I.\n\nmy point was that some people find this material, cosmic theory \ncompelling, and find that it takes all the meaning out of the Myth.\nIf it does correspond, it still doesn't kill it for me.\n\nI guess it's a lame attempt to counter that though you've got a fairly \ntight theory about Hierogrammite manipulation without Divinity that \nseems to hold water, it still does not flatten out those higher \nmeanings for me.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2008, at 3:56 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nYou misunderstand.\n\nAbsent their astrological connotations, this silly theory could not be\nseen to correspond to the Christ story at all.\n\nNor is the Crucifixion observed on December 22nd, as this theory\nrequires, or even \"three days\" before he resurrection--it's \"the third\nday\".\n\nPlus, I laughed at the Virgo = Mary bit. Not only is the gender wrong,\nbut Mary is venerated in January, March, May, November, and December\nas well as August\nand September, and her virginity is of course celebrated in December.\nIt a very silly theory, but creative, I'll give it that.\n\nIf you want me to, I can come up with an equally compelling theory\nthat the Christ story acts out the Chinese zodiac.\n\ninal message -\nNo, no, the houses of the Zodiac can be vi...\n\n\n\n\n\nSent from Gmail for mobile\n\n\n\nOn 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You pretty clearly do mean astrological though, don't you? \nOtherwise\nwhat's the significance of the \"scorpion\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, no,\n\nthe houses of the Zodiac can be viewed apart from any Astrological\ninterpretations. The House of Scorpio is a position in the heavens.\nOne does NOT have to buy into any astrology to say the Sun is in \nScorpio. It\njust means the Sun is in that position of the sky.\n\nDo you know the stuff I'm talking about?\nhere's an article that sums it up fairly well. worth reading.\nI wont suggest watching Zeitgeist.\n\nhttp://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/bibleastrology.html\n\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13377.67.142.130.21.1228448971.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T03:49:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041155x4044c55dq6bcc24b535f6f7fd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That stuff is scriptural.\n\nThe Catholics, very wisely, don't emphasize it and in fact generally\nconsider it a mistake to pay too much attention to it, but it is in the\nBible.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gene Wolfe is Catholic, so I doubt he believes in the Rapture. There\nshouldn't be anyone \"left behind.\"\n\nOn 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also not what I said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "sorry. too much coffee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But I guess I have to put it all in one place. Severian's Planetary\nReset/Genocide is not a way in which he resembles Christ, except maybe\nas a parody or travesty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "or maybe as a warped reflection, which is more or less what I'm\nsuggesting.\n\nAs I've said, I'm no theologian, but what does the Apocalypse mean to\nthose left behind? It sucks to be them, no?\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 12/4/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Fine, Severian hits a reset button.\n\nBut that has nothing to do with Christianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "yeah, there are certainly no Christological symbols in the Book of\nthe New Sun and Christ is NOT a Solar diety.\n\nhttp://www.spraypaintstencils.com/a-zlistings/3-wise-monkeys-image.gif\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T04:49:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041556r6397b8b5t8896dc0e1ab85c3b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absent their astrological connotations, this silly theory could not be\nseen to correspond to the Christ story at all. Nor is the Crucifixion\nobserved on December 22nd, as this theory requires, or even \"three days\"\nbefore he resurrection--it's \"the third day\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This theory shows shocking na?vet? about cosmology considering the interest \nits creator must have had in the subject:\n\n\"Thirty years after Christ's birth he was baptized. Thirty days after the \nSun is born he enters the sign Aquarius, the water-bearer (Baptismo). \"\n\nActually this count is off by 5 days, but lets leave that aside. 2000 years \nago, the Sun entered Aquarius around (guessing) 40 days or more later than \nit does today. This holds true for all the other dates assigned to \nastrological signs.\n\nThere is much to recommend the connection between cosmology and myth, but \nthis explanation is like trying to present Quantum Physics through Nancy & \nSluggo cartoons.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<22013DDA-E96E-41A5-A01B-2E58ED2C19C6@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T05:44:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2008, at 8:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Absent their astrological connotations, this silly theory could not \nbe\nseen to correspond to the Christ story at all. Nor is the Crucifixion\nobserved on December 22nd, as this theory requires, or even \"three \ndays\"\nbefore he resurrection--it's \"the third day\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This theory shows shocking na?vet? about cosmology considering the \ninterest its creator must have had in the subject:\n\n\"Thirty years after Christ's birth he was baptized. Thirty days \nafter the Sun is born he enters the sign Aquarius, the water-bearer \n(Baptismo). \"\n\nActually this count is off by 5 days, but lets leave that aside. \n2000 years ago, the Sun entered Aquarius around (guessing) 40 days \nor more later than it does today. This holds true for all the other \ndates assigned to astrological signs.\n\nThere is much to recommend the connection between cosmology and \nmyth, but this explanation is like trying to present Quantum Physics \nthrough Nancy & Sluggo cartoons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "too funny.\n\nI don't know shit about it. it's fun to see it punctured so readily.\nyou geeks who can keep track of the stars positions over eons are too \ncool for school.\n\nI did quickly google that one cause I couldn't remember the better \npresentation I saw.\nanyway, I guess I'm naive enough to find the notion interesting, but \nnot interested enough to check it's veracity.\nprobably makes more sense filtered through bongwater. ;)\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<020501c9569c$e6a48b80$cacc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-05T05:46:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz quoted and wrote:\nThat's the essence of what I meant, that in Christian thought the birth,\nlife, death and resurrection of a god who was God was a one-time event, a\nBig Deal, unlike the many \"pagan\" dying-and-resurrected gods before him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is \"Christian Thought\" the only reading of the Christian myth? One can\nstand outside the tradition of the church and still make interpretations of\nthis STORY. It is a fiction. It may be TRUE, but it is still a fiction, as\nall histories truly are. One can interpret myths from Greek, Hindu," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Persian, etc without having a perspective truly from their perspectives.\nSure some of the hairsplitting of theology could get wonky, but the essence\nand spirit would not necessarily be far from the mark." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not asking Christians to accept that Severian is Christ, LITERALLY.\nthat would counter their Christian thought, and, well, heaven forbid...<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First off, I am not a Christian and have no interest in guarding the\nsanctity of Christian tradition, if that is what you have assumed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It does seem OBVIOUS that the abstracted notion of Christ is the template\nfor the Messiah of the New Sun. No one is suggesting a one to one mapping of\nall the plot elements, NOR all of the official interpretations. It would\nseem wolfe wanted to write a story that dealt with Death and Resurrection on\na personal, societal, and cosmic level, and in doing so, he took the Christ\nmyth as an inspiration and tossed that essence of a symbol into his story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are so many parallels that it seems really obstinate and close minded\nnot to accept it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By 'close-minded', I don't mean to insult anyone, just that if your ONLY\nlooking at this potential from within Correct Christian Thought, you will\nprobably be closed off to abstraction and recombination of the symbols that\ninspire Christian Thought. I've hardly seen anyone argue that Inire\ncouldn't be Daedalus because it doesn't truly fit the perspective of Greek\nthought. Or that Daedalus was not a bent alien wearing a mask, so it just\ndoesn't compare.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, there are parallels between Severian and Jesus. My point was that, in\nthe end, I don't think they compare very well, for reasons already given.\nLet me put it another way: After Jesus did what he did on/for Earth, he\nclimbed back on the Heavenly Throne. After Severian did what he did to/for\nUrth, he stuck around on Ushas and got the bejesus kicked out of his\ngod-like powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm curious as to your thoughts as to they deeper symbolic meanings, Roy,\nas you've obviously parsed out the plot in a fairly watertight way. But what\ndoes that plot all add up to you? What level, besides plotting, do you\nengage with this material on?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't pretend to have all the answers, much less The Answer. But I have\nlearned not to try to impose meaning on Wolfe's work by trying to use an\nexternal template to extrapolate from in order to fill in narrative gaps. No\nmatter what sources Wolfe may incorporate into his stories--the Bible,\nliterature, mythology, folklore, whatever--he *never* recasts that source\nmaterial quite the way he found it. He adds things, subtracts things, mixes\nthings up. \"The Tale of the Student and His Son\" (CLAW, XVII) is a NS\nexample that contains elements from several recognizable sources, but the\nwhole is very different from its parts and is not defined by them. The\nCinderella bit in PEACE is all screwed up. The Arthurian material in\nCASTLEVIEW is mixed up and mingled with unrelated material, etc.\n\nIn the Christian tradition, what Christ did on Earth was for the benefit of\nall mankind. What the Conciliator did to Urth to bring about the New\nBeginning of Ushas (something God in the O.T. tried with less than\nsatisfactory results) affected Urth-Ushas only. Mankind was on other planets\nspread all over the galaxy. In the Urth Cycle, the Hierogrammates are\nSeverian's puppet masters and they are screwing around with the whole damn\nuniverse, with or without the Increate's blessing.\n\nWhat that adds up to on the symbolic level is debatable, and it has been\nmuch debated here for a long time. Are the Hierogrammates good guys?\nPersonally, I'm generally inclined to think so, but it depends on which side\nof the bed I get up on.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15944.67.142.130.15.1228456331.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T05:52:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812041221i77986fc9rb1d82af2688bccac@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that Wizard Knight is Wolfe's ideas of the kind of thing that\nhappens to a decent, relatively innocent, but non-Christian person after\ndeath: the world that Able finds himself in is his purgatory.\n\nDoes anyone here remember being born? I remember being circumcised (I\nwould have been eight days old), and I have memories that seem to precede\nthat, but it is very hard to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My main point, in this and others of the conceededly tiresome threads\non this topic, has been to argue that the Gene Wolfe who depicts\nnon-Christian faiths so empathetically in Long Sun, Short Sun, Latro,\netc., is likely a big believer in so-called anonymous Christianity. I\nvery much doubt that he thinks that all of those people on Urth are\ngoing straight to Hell--just try to imagine Silk, for example,\nexplaining to Horn that everyone who doesn't follow the Outsider will\nburn eternally. It's jarring, and almost certainly not where Wolfe is\ngoing with the destruction of Urth.\n\nBecause of this, I don't see Severian's \"Christ-like\" characteristics\nas implying any kind of moral sanction for the Ushas choice unless\nthere's something deeper going on--a third layer, behind the\nHierogrammates, where the Increate is working some kind of subtle\nmagic. What this is, however, is a mystery I haven't solved yet.\n\nAnd so I get frustrated when, on this list, many who are not\nChristians themselves sort of imply that this monstrous act in the\nbook is something that I should just be gung-ho about because, well,\nthe Christian God is pretty much a monster Himself. I don't buy that,\nand I don't think Wolfe does, and I think it misses the mark in\nunderstanding the New Sun.\n\nAnyway, that's my take. I've said it.\n\nOn 12/4/08, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Not exactly sure that's a fair way to describe the Second\nComing...the\nEnd of the Universe is naturally a \"mass genocide\" in a sense, but a\nvery limited one..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fair enough. But, the end of everything is a limited genocide? I guess\nyou\ncan argue that, but there is always the ever present and tiring argument\nthat the billions of non-Christians slated to go to hell is about as bad\nas\nthe drowning of most of Urth. However, that is a surface level and\nfacile\nargument that I'm not going to put forward. To me, that's about the\nlevel\nof \"if God is so good, how come he let's kids die\" argument, which I\nalso\nthink is facile.\n\nI'm going to definitely concede that one area that Severian is very\nUNChristlike is that he isn't aware of his (possible) connection with\nthe\nDivine plan. Christ certainly knows where his bread is buttered. Sev\ndoesn't. But again, at root this is all a \"Sev has some echos of the\nChrist\nMyth\" not \"Sev is actually Christ\".\n\nThe hair's we are splitting are getting so fine I'm gonna need a bigger\nscalpel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, yes, but neither Severian nor, it seems, Tzadkiel is the master\nof life and death. They have no sure knowledge of life \"on the other\nside,\" nor any authority over creation the way a divine being does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It'd be nice to have some textual evidence, though, wouldn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13703.67.142.130.15.1228456407.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T05:53:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And again, the main hair I'm splitting is that the Story of Jesus Christ\nis itself a reflection of a cosmic principle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is your personal opinion.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<24787.42978.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T05:59:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<15944.67.142.130.15.1228456331.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that Wizard Knight is Wolfe's ideas of the kind of thing that\nhappens to a decent, relatively innocent, but non-Christian person after\ndeath: the world that Able finds himself in is his purgatory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So the \"greater lord\" at the end is just another purgatory \"lord\"? The fact that he can apparently bring Disiri with him beyond just one level above her suggests that this is something further, a kind of \"salvation\"?\n\nBut I'm not sure about \"after death,\" either. I mean, in a generally Christian situation, once you die, isn't that the end of your moral \"trial\"? Everything after is just consequence. But Able still has plenty to prove/learn about himself. That seems like a pre- rather than post-death situation.\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<14677.67.142.130.39.1228459834.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T06:50:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<24787.42978.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand what you are saying.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that Wizard Knight is Wolfe's ideas of the kind of thing that\nhappens to a decent, relatively innocent, but non-Christian person after\ndeath: the world that Able finds himself in is his purgatory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So the \"greater lord\" at the end is just another purgatory \"lord\"? The\nfact that he can apparently bring Disiri with him beyond just one level\nabove her suggests that this is something further, a kind of \"salvation\"?\n\nBut I'm not sure about \"after death,\" either. I mean, in a generally\nChristian situation, once you die, isn't that the end of your moral\n\"trial\"? Everything after is just consequence. But Able still has plenty\nto prove/learn about himself. That seems like a pre- rather than\npost-death situation.\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15482.67.142.130.39.1228460564.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T07:02:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All or just about all mythology is written in an astronomical vocabulary.\n\nConsult \"Hamlet's Mill\" to learn more of this.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet%27s_Mill <= this article is more or\nless accurate.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose I just find it all a LOT less interesting to boil it down to a\nSelf Preservation or Eugenics plan without the will of the Increate\ninvolved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(replying to myself because I want to post a question about an old mystery\nthat this feeling above made me think about)\n\nHow do you Christian's resolve the Astrological correspondences with the\nBiblical story of Jesus Christ?\n\nThere are many books and videos out there that talk about the astrological\ncorrespondences. Unfortunately, the most widely viewed, and the first that\ncomes to my mind, is the Zeitgeist film. There are many things wrong with\nthat movie (though the last part about money is pretty good).\nlet's not get waylaid by the many problems, such as it's misrepresentation\nof some of the figures it would conflate with Christ, or its weak\nsourcing. (You can practically see the books in the filmmakers lap)\nbut the film presents the Astrological Correspondences fairly well.\n\nyou know the gist, right?\nThe Sun is Christ. Judas is Scorpio. The Judas Kiss is the Sun in Scorpio,\nwhich is then subsequently weaker (lower and lower in the horizon, and\nmore distant), until it 'dies' a few days before Christmas, (seeming to\nstand still for 3 days) then coming back to life on Chrismas (seeming to\nmove again, and ascending in the sky). and such like, with Easter being\nthe Spring Equinox Fertility time.\n\nI may have sketched it poorly, but the correspondences are VERY strong, in\na way that tests many people's faith. Surely Zeitgeist is trying to\ndebunk Christianity in a big way, but these correspondences are there\nregardless of Zeitgeit's agenda.\n\nSo how do you feel about your myth being 'flattened' into a mere\nmechanistic universe with ignorant inhabitants who must anthropomorphize\ntheir life sustaining solar body as a Diety?\n\nSome Catholics say the sun does that because Christ did that.\nbut surely there were Astronomers charting this out before Jesus.\n\nPersonally, I find it hard to reconcile, and haven't quite. Yet Faith &\nIntuition tell me that there may be something to that idea, but one must\nmove beyond the idea of Jesus in particular to this notion of Cosmic\nPrinciple that both Jesus and the Sun must represent. Yes, I'm saying the\nliteral sun could be an instantiation of this. I'm not sure I believe it,\nbut it's one of the only ways I can reconcile this myth with the\nastrological correspondences.\n\nanyone?\n\n~sonofwitz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Solomon, Joshua", "address": "j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk" }, "date": "2008-12-05T11:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<14677.67.142.130.39.1228459834.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:52:11 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\n\nI remember being circumcised (I\nwould have been eight days old), and I have memories that seem to precede\nthat, but it is very hard to say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is so unusual that I find it hard to believe. Google \"earliest\nmemories,\" and you'll find most adults cannot remember anything from the\ntime before they were 3 or 3.5 years old.\n\nj" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Joshua A. Solomon\nhttp://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812050338x3959beafl4ac80f15bdda15dd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T11:38:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps brunians remembers remembering those things?\n\nI still have 3 or 4 clear recollections from before my 3rd birthday,\nbut I think I just remember writing down my earliest memories when I\nwas in elementary school." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/5/08, Solomon, Joshua wrote:\nDate: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:52:11 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\n\nI remember being circumcised (I\nwould have been eight days old), and I have memories that seem to precede\nthat, but it is very hard to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is so unusual that I find it hard to believe. Google \"earliest\nmemories,\" and you'll find most adults cannot remember anything from the\ntime before they were 3 or 3.5 years old.\n\nj\n--\nJoshua A. Solomon\nhttp://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812050345id516767icca757d165434bfb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T11:45:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<15944.67.142.130.15.1228456331.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:52 AM, wrote:\nI think that Wizard Knight is Wolfe's ideas of the kind of thing that\nhappens to a decent, relatively innocent, but non-Christian person after\ndeath: the world that Able finds himself in is his purgatory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, just intuitively, I think this is a pretty great theory.\n\nOne contribution--are Able and Disiri thus a reworking of the\nVane/Lilith relationship from George MacDonald's Lilith? There are\ncertainly some parallels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15738.67.142.130.28.1228477831.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T11:50:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I remember being circumcised (I would have been eight days old),\nand I have memories that seem to precede that, but it is very\nhard to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is so unusual that I find it hard to believe. Google \"earliest\nmemories,\" and you'll find most adults cannot remember anything from the\ntime before they were 3 or 3.5 years old." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Believe or disbelieve, it makes no difference to me. I know other people\nwho have memories that go back before three years old or so.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1403.67.142.130.28.1228478009.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T11:53:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812050338x3959beafl4ac80f15bdda15dd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps brunians remembers remembering those things?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still have 3 or 4 clear recollections from before my 3rd birthday,\nbut I think I just remember writing down my earliest memories when I\nwas in elementary school." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One exercise for recovering early memories consists of putting yourself\nwhere your earliest memory is and then seeing what you remember.\n\nMy family happens to have moved when I was three years old, so it is easy\nto tell which memories are earlier than that. There are very many of them.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8471.67.142.130.28.1228478101.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T11:55:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812050345id516767icca757d165434bfb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:52 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that Wizard Knight is Wolfe's ideas of the kind of thing that\nhappens to a decent, relatively innocent, but non-Christian person after\ndeath: the world that Able finds himself in is his purgatory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, just intuitively, I think this is a pretty great theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One contribution--are Able and Disiri thus a reworking of the\nVane/Lilith relationship from George MacDonald's Lilith? There are\ncertainly some parallels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have still to read the vast bulk of MacDonald. Thank you for reminding me.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<446EECC4-2D16-4919-9F65-1A1C4400FEDE@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T14:13:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<15944.67.142.130.15.1228456331.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a particularly vivid memory from before I could walk or talk. I \nwas crawling along the floor of the kitchen and I found the dog's \nbowl. I remember thinking, since the dog eats it, it must be good, so \nI stuffed a piece in my mouth, and then my mother started freaking out \nand the dog was looking at me amusedly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 5, 2008, at 12:52 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI think that Wizard Knight is Wolfe's ideas of the kind of thing that\nhappens to a decent, relatively innocent, but non-Christian person \nafter\ndeath: the world that Able finds himself in is his purgatory.\n\nDoes anyone here remember being born? I remember being circumcised (I\nwould have been eight days old), and I have memories that seem to \nprecede\nthat, but it is very hard to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My main point, in this and others of the conceededly tiresome threads\non this topic, has been to argue that the Gene Wolfe who depicts\nnon-Christian faiths so empathetically in Long Sun, Short Sun, Latro,\netc., is likely a big believer in so-called anonymous \nChristianity. I\nvery much doubt that he thinks that all of those people on Urth are\ngoing straight to Hell--just try to imagine Silk, for example,\nexplaining to Horn that everyone who doesn't follow the Outsider will\nburn eternally. It's jarring, and almost certainly not where Wolfe \nis\ngoing with the destruction of Urth.\n\nBecause of this, I don't see Severian's \"Christ-like\" characteristics\nas implying any kind of moral sanction for the Ushas choice unless\nthere's something deeper going on--a third layer, behind the\nHierogrammates, where the Increate is working some kind of subtle\nmagic. What this is, however, is a mystery I haven't solved yet.\n\nAnd so I get frustrated when, on this list, many who are not\nChristians themselves sort of imply that this monstrous act in the\nbook is something that I should just be gung-ho about because, well,\nthe Christian God is pretty much a monster Himself. I don't buy \nthat,\nand I don't think Wolfe does, and I think it misses the mark in\nunderstanding the New Sun.\n\nAnyway, that's my take. I've said it.\n\nOn 12/4/08, Jordon Flato wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Not exactly sure that's a fair way to describe the Second\nComing...the\nEnd of the Universe is naturally a \"mass genocide\" in a sense, \nbut a\nvery limited one..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fair enough. But, the end of everything is a limited genocide? I \nguess\nyou\ncan argue that, but there is always the ever present and tiring \nargument\nthat the billions of non-Christians slated to go to hell is about \nas bad\nas\nthe drowning of most of Urth. However, that is a surface level and\nfacile\nargument that I'm not going to put forward. To me, that's about the\nlevel\nof \"if God is so good, how come he let's kids die\" argument, which I\nalso\nthink is facile.\n\nI'm going to definitely concede that one area that Severian is very\nUNChristlike is that he isn't aware of his (possible) connection \nwith\nthe\nDivine plan. Christ certainly knows where his bread is buttered. \nSev\ndoesn't. But again, at root this is all a \"Sev has some echos of \nthe\nChrist\nMyth\" not \"Sev is actually Christ\".\n\nThe hair's we are splitting are getting so fine I'm gonna need a \nbigger\nscalpel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Well, yes, but neither Severian nor, it seems, Tzadkiel is the \nmaster\nof life and death. They have no sure knowledge of life \"on the \nother\nside,\" nor any authority over creation the way a divine being \ndoes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It'd be nice to have some textual evidence, though, wouldn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49393B5B.8000608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-05T14:31:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<15482.67.142.130.39.1228460564.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John---\n\nI agree, and I especially like your formulation of \"the kind of Messiah humanity deserves.\" That's why such a Bad Example as Severian can be Epitome. What Urth deserves is the whole point.\n\nQuestion: How do we know evacuation was feasible? I suppose the starsailship could have been used an infinite number of times to evacuate millions at a time via time travel, but I don't recall it being mentioned. \n\nAlso, I have always simply assumed, in the absence of any direct evidence, that we are to regard all of humanity outside the Commonwealth as no longer really human---if the Ascians are any indication---and therefore no loss whatsoever, though they had an equal chance of surviving the Flood. But even if the Fountain is just a eugenics program, it's still complicated by a lack of information. Was the purpose to weed out those not worthy, and to decide whether the remainder were worthy? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:50:41 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0812041250v33a6d8b4x72bf8d2456b31269 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\n* * *" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, for me, the destruction of Urth to create Ushas is not a monstrous act.\nIf there is no afterlife in New Sun, if the Increate isn't real (no matter\nhow conscious his servants are of his wishes), then the destruction of Ushas\nis a brutal and monstrous one. If the Increate is real, and there is some\nsort of Life of the Soul in the books (of which textual evidence you've\nasked for I would posit all of the discussion of the survival of Severian's\n'personality' through so many types of death, and the corridors of time\nthemsevles) then this act, the destruction of Urth, the 'hitting of the\nreset button' is no longer monstrous, but another instance of the Increate\nhitting the reset button like he did with Noah, or Sodom, or countless other\nexamples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nMy point isn't that there's no Life of the Soul in the Urth books--I\nthink there pretty clearly is, at least of some sort.\n\nBut that Life of the Soul seems wholly divorced from the flooding of\nUrth. There is nothing literally redemptive about the destruction of\nUrth--it's just a big eugenics project, undertaken by artificial\nlifeforms who claim to be doing the will of God. I think the\ncomparison with Noah is much more apt than the comparison with the\nSecond Coming, and maybe the reading that Severian is \"the kind of\nMessiah humanity can produce,\" or maybe even \"the kind of Messiah\nhumanity deserves\" is dead-on.\n\nI'll just reply to Son of Witz here as well: if the Sun was dying for\nnatural causes, or because of the actions of Typhon, and if there was\nno feasible way to evacuate Urth to other settled planets, and the\ndestruction of Urth was the only way to cause this \"long term\nresurrection,\" then I would agree that it is a \"good thing\" in the\nultimate sense, and the casualties are unfortunately necessary.\n\nBut we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49393FE4.1060809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-05T14:51:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<49393B5B.8000608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that relates to something I brought up earlier, which is the role of doubt in faith, and the way science fiction can either conform to our sci-fi expectations or break them (as Delany seems to suggest in the quoted passage), or both. \n\nIs the Increate still God if his angels are super-scientists? Is the outcome of TBotNS a big deal if the basic plot is a cleverly contrived mechanism constructed of sci-fi cliches taken to their logical extreme? Is God still God if the entire universe is just a complex clockwork operating by simple rules that still, somehow, allow a good deal of unpredictability and mystery? Is Jesus still Christ if the entire myth about him was made up from other myths? These are parallel questions, in a way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 18:46:12 -0800\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <4ABE018C-10E3-40E1-BEF7-4541355D052C at butcherbaker.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\nI'm not sure about any of that.\nI don't mean to stand behind this theory, though I've seen better \npresentations by people more versed in the subject than I.\n\nmy point was that some people find this material, cosmic theory \ncompelling, and find that it takes all the meaning out of the Myth.\nIf it does correspond, it still doesn't kill it for me.\n\nI guess it's a lame attempt to counter that though you've got a fairly \ntight theory about Hierogrammite manipulation without Divinity that \nseems to hold water, it still does not flatten out those higher \nmeanings for me.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812050655h1c45f0c1xc10a38c321aa7613@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T14:55:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<49393B5B.8000608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/08, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nJohn---\n\nI agree, and I especially like your formulation of \"the kind of Messiah humanity deserves.\" That's why such a Bad Example as Severian can be Epitome. What Urth deserves is the whole point.\n\nQuestion: How do we know evacuation was feasible? I suppose the starsailship could have been used an infinite number of times to evacuate millions at a time via time travel, but I don't recall it being mentioned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Master Ash comments that most of humanity was evacuated before the\nfinal freeze." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, I have always simply assumed, in the absence of any direct evidence, that we are to regard all of humanity outside the Commonwealth as no longer really human---if the Ascians are any indication---and therefore no loss whatsoever, though they had an equal chance of surviving the Flood. But even if the Fountain is just a eugenics program, it's still complicated by a lack of information. Was the purpose to weed out those not worthy, and to decide whether the remainder were worthy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is I think the opposite of what Wolfe intends. Yes, the Pelerine says\nthat the Ascians are animals, and the name \"without shadows\" is\ntantilizingly like \"without souls.\"\n\nBut the Story of Loyal to the Group of Seventeen seems to suggest that human\nindividuality has endured despite the repressive Ascian culture.\n\nI think I remember Severian speculating that Loyal could communicate\nanything he wished to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:50:41 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0812041250v33a6d8b4x72bf8d2456b31269 at mail.gmail.com> <93d4039f0812041250v33a6d8b4x72bf8d2456b31269 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\n* * *\n\n\n > So, for me, the destruction of Urth to create Ushas is not a monstrous act.> If there is no afterlife in New Sun, if the Increate isn't real (no matter> how conscious his servants are of his wishes), then the destruction of Ushas> is a brutal and monstrous one. If the Increate is real, and there is some> sort of Life of the Soul in the books (of which textual evidence you've> asked for I would posit all of the discussion of the survival of Severian's> 'personality' through so many types of death, and the corridors of time> themsevles) then this act, the destruction of Urth, the 'hitting of the> reset button' is no longer monstrous, but another instance of the Increate> hitting the reset button like he did with Noah, or Sodom, or countless other> examples.\n\n\nMy point isn't that there's no Life of the Soul in the Urth books--I\nthink there pretty clearly is, at least of some sort.\n\nBut that Life of the Soul seems wholly divorced from the flooding of\nUrth. There is nothing literally redemptive about the destruction of\nUrth--it's just a big eugenics project, undertaken by artificial\nlifeforms who claim to be doing the will of God. I think the\ncomparison with Noah is much more apt than the comparison with the\nSecond Coming, and maybe the reading that Severian is \"the kind of\nMessiah humanity can produce,\" or maybe even \"the kind of Messiah\nhumanity deserves\" is dead-on.\n\nI'll just reply to Son of Witz here as well: if the Sun was dying for\nnatural causes, or because of the actions of Typhon, and if there was\nno feasible way to evacuate Urth to other settled planets, and the\ndestruction of Urth was the only way to cause this \"long term\nresurrection,\" then I would agree that it is a \"good thing\" in the\nultimate sense, and the casualties are unfortunately necessary.\n\nBut we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda.\n\n\n\n\n ------------------------------\n\navast! Antivirus : Outbound message clean.\n\nVirus Database (VPS): 081204-0, 12/04/2008\nTested on: 12/5/2008 9:31:57 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T14:58:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<15482.67.142.130.39.1228460564.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA512" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:02 AM,\n wrote:\nAll or just about all mythology is written in an astronomical vocabulary.\n\nConsult \"Hamlet's Mill\" to learn more of this.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet%27s_Mill less accurate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'more or less' :(\n\nInasmuch as I wrote that article, could you elaborate on the less part?\n\n- --\ngwern\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)\n\niEYEAREKAAYFAkk5QXkACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oKqgQCaAsDJCHNyptl6oulXAiTTHnqU\n4AUAn2V0Dw9wXTrsZ/bKi4JgdILw6bo3\n=CEJw\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Solomon, Joshua", "address": "j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk" }, "date": "2008-12-05T15:06:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<446EECC4-2D16-4919-9F65-1A1C4400FEDE@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:50:31 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I remember being circumcised (I would have been eight days old),\nand I have memories that seem to precede that, but it is very\nhard to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is so unusual that I find it hard to believe. Google \"earliest\nmemories,\" and you'll find most adults cannot remember anything from the\ntime before they were 3 or 3.5 years old." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Believe or disbelieve, it makes no difference to me. I know other people\nwho have memories that go back before three years old or so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, but how can you (all) be so certain your memories are \"real?\" See\nhttp://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/\nbee" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Joshua A. Solomon\nhttp://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4939446D.4060905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-05T15:10:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose one could speculate that in Ash's timeline, there was plenty of time to evacuate, because Urth died slowly. Typhon sent millions forth in the Whorl, so the Commonwealth could have done the same with help, i.e., self-evacuation. (Which of course still leaves open the question of who was actually deemed worthy of evacuation among Urth's presumably diverse populations.) And thus, whether the coming of the White Fountain also left time for any similar effort. \n\nThe odd thing about these 2 potential futures is that in Ash's timeline, the Hieros don't seem to care at all (or maybe they do rescue everyone), but in Severian's timeline, they save some and destroy the rest. Why would Severian's \"proving\" that some of humanity was worth saving mean that some of humanity then needed to be destroyed who otherwise would not have been? (To clean out the planet so the worthy could rebuild?)\n\nAs for the humanity/worthiness of the Ascians, I agree that it's ambiguous, as perhaps it should be. What matters is what the Heiros think, and we just don't know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:55:01 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0812050655h1c45f0c1xc10a38c321aa7613 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn 12/5/08, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John---\n\nI agree, and I especially like your formulation of \"the kind of Messiah humanity deserves.\" That's why such a Bad Example as Severian can be Epitome. What Urth deserves is the whole point.\n\nQuestion: How do we know evacuation was feasible? I suppose the starsailship could have been used an infinite number of times to evacuate millions at a time via time travel, but I don't recall it being mentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI think Master Ash comments that most of humanity was evacuated before the\nfinal freeze." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, I have always simply assumed, in the absence of any direct evidence, that we are to regard all of humanity outside the Commonwealth as no longer really human---if the Ascians are any indication---and therefore no loss whatsoever, though they had an equal chance of surviving the Flood. But even if the Fountain is just a eugenics program, it's still complicated by a lack of information. Was the purpose to weed out those not worthy, and to decide whether the remainder were worthy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nThis is I think the opposite of what Wolfe intends. Yes, the Pelerine says\nthat the Ascians are animals, and the name \"without shadows\" is\ntantilizingly like \"without souls.\"\n\nBut the Story of Loyal to the Group of Seventeen seems to suggest that human\nindividuality has endured despite the repressive Ascian culture.\n\nI think I remember Severian speculating that Loyal could communicate\nanything he wished to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812050711p4e09f050p6aee67cf7aedf04f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T15:11:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My new theory is that brunians is Sev1.\n\nI will reread to look for clues." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/5/08, Solomon, Joshua wrote:\nDate: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:50:31 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I remember being circumcised (I would have been eight days old),\nand I have memories that seem to precede that, but it is very\nhard to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is so unusual that I find it hard to believe. Google \"earliest\nmemories,\" and you'll find most adults cannot remember anything from the\ntime before they were 3 or 3.5 years old." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Believe or disbelieve, it makes no difference to me. I know other people\nwho have memories that go back before three years old or so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, but how can you (all) be so certain your memories are \"real?\" See\nhttp://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/\nbee\n--\nJoshua A. Solomon\nhttp://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3053CC87-9C5E-4BBE-A1FF-3B76A06FE091@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T15:11:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<15738.67.142.130.28.1228477831.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Dec 5, 2008, at 3:50 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI remember being circumcised (I would have been eight days old),\nand I have memories that seem to precede that, but it is very\nhard to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is so unusual that I find it hard to believe. Google \"earliest\nmemories,\" and you'll find most adults cannot remember anything \nfrom the\ntime before they were 3 or 3.5 years old." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Believe or disbelieve, it makes no difference to me. I know other \npeople\nwho have memories that go back before three years old or so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a vivid, traumatic memory from age 2." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812050716u4b15715lc197fc393469474b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T15:16:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<4939446D.4060905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that the Hieros might not care to save the Ascians.\n\nOne argument that's been made here before (can't recall by whom) is that the\nhumans of Urth have interbred with cacogens.\n\nThus, the Hieros eugenics project--wipe the cacogen blood away, perserve a\nhandful of \"pure\" humans, and start over again.\n\nThe parallel to the Biblical Flood is clear--the Flood was motivated, in\npart, by the interbreeding of women with Nephilim:\n\nGenesis, Chapter Six (KJV, again, for literary effect)\n\n4 There were giants\n[nephilim]\nin the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came\nin unto the daughters of men,\n\nand they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of\nold, men of renown.\n\n5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,\n\nand that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil\ncontinually.\n\n6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved\nhim at his heart.\n\n7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of\nthe earth;\n\nboth man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for\nit repenteth me that I have made them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/08, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nI suppose one could speculate that in Ash's timeline, there was plenty of time to evacuate, because Urth died slowly. Typhon sent millions forth in the Whorl, so the Commonwealth could have done the same with help, i.e., self-evacuation. (Which of course still leaves open the question of who was actually deemed worthy of evacuation among Urth's presumably diverse populations.) And thus, whether the coming of the White Fountain also left time for any similar effort.\n\nThe odd thing about these 2 potential futures is that in Ash's timeline, the Hieros don't seem to care at all (or maybe they do rescue everyone), but in Severian's timeline, they save some and destroy the rest. Why would Severian's \"proving\" that some of humanity was worth saving mean that some of humanity then needed to be destroyed who otherwise would not have been? (To clean out the planet so the worthy could rebuild?)\n\nAs for the humanity/worthiness of the Ascians, I agree that it's ambiguous, as perhaps it should be. What matters is what the Heiros think, and we just don't know.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:55:01 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49395052.20303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-05T16:01:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812050716u4b15715lc197fc393469474b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Huh.\n\nWell, thanks for that.\n\nSo maybe the biblical Flood could be seen as a eugenics project too! ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:16:54 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0812050716u4b15715lc197fc393469474b at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI agree that the Hieros might not care to save the Ascians.\n\nOne argument that's been made here before (can't recall by whom) is that the\nhumans of Urth have interbred with cacogens.\n\nThus, the Hieros eugenics project--wipe the cacogen blood away, perserve a\nhandful of \"pure\" humans, and start over again.\n\nThe parallel to the Biblical Flood is clear--the Flood was motivated, in\npart, by the interbreeding of women with Nephilim:\n\nGenesis, Chapter Six (KJV, again, for literary effect)\n\n4 There were giants\n[nephilim]\nin the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came\nin unto the daughters of men,\n\nand they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of\nold, men of renown.\n\n5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,\n\nand that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil\ncontinually.\n\n6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved\nhim at his heart.\n\n7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of\nthe earth;\n\nboth man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for\nit repenteth me that I have made them." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T16:06:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 4, 2008, at 10:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nthis explanation is like trying to present Quantum Physics through \nNancy & Sluggo cartoons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wish to buy that book.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812050809i3e5142eblcc9f95c523ad8dd9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T16:09:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<49395052.20303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely. I mean, to the degree that a Christian (or a Jew or a\nMuslim, or, I guess, a modern worshipper of the Babylonian gods)\nbelieves that a global flood literally occurred to wipe out the\ndemi-human spawn of literal, physical demons, yes.\n\nI imagine that that's a small percentage of the world's Christians, however." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/08, David Stockhoff wrote:\nHuh.\n\nWell, thanks for that.\n\nSo maybe the biblical Flood could be seen as a eugenics project too! ;)\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:16:54 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n\n<93d4039f0812050716u4b15715lc197fc393469474b at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI agree that the Hieros might not care to save the Ascians.\n\nOne argument that's been made here before (can't recall by whom) is that the\nhumans of Urth have interbred with cacogens.\n\nThus, the Hieros eugenics project--wipe the cacogen blood away, perserve a\nhandful of \"pure\" humans, and start over again.\n\nThe parallel to the Biblical Flood is clear--the Flood was motivated, in\npart, by the interbreeding of women with Nephilim:\n\nGenesis, Chapter Six (KJV, again, for literary effect)\n\n4 There were giants\n[nephilim]\nin the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came\nin unto the daughters of men,\n\nand they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of\nold, men of renown.\n\n5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,\n\nand that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil\ncontinually.\n\n6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved\nhim at his heart.\n\n7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of\nthe earth;\n\nboth man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for\nit repenteth me that I have made them.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081204-0, 12/04/2008\nTested on: 12/5/2008 11:01:23 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14764.67.142.130.28.1228494785.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T16:33:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see any profit in it.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA512\n\nOn Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:02 AM,\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All or just about all mythology is written in an astronomical\nvocabulary.\n\nConsult \"Hamlet's Mill\" to learn more of this.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet%27s_Mill less accurate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'more or less' :(\n\nInasmuch as I wrote that article, could you elaborate on the less part?\n\n- --\ngwern\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)\n\niEYEAREKAAYFAkk5QXkACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oKqgQCaAsDJCHNyptl6oulXAiTTHnqU\n4AUAn2V0Dw9wXTrsZ/bKi4JgdILw6bo3\n=CEJw\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12931.67.142.130.28.1228494853.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T16:34:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, but how can you (all) be so certain your memories are \"real?\" See\nhttp://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How can you be certain that what you are experiencing right now is \"real\"?\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<15301.67.142.130.28.1228495197.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T16:39:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812050711p4e09f050p6aee67cf7aedf04f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt your theory?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My new theory is that brunians is Sev1.\n\nI will reread to look for clues.\n\nOn 12/5/08, Solomon, Joshua wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:50:31 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I remember being circumcised (I would have been eight days old),\nand I have memories that seem to precede that, but it is very\nhard to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This is so unusual that I find it hard to believe. Google \"earliest\nmemories,\" and you'll find most adults cannot remember anything from\nthe\ntime before they were 3 or 3.5 years old." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Believe or disbelieve, it makes no difference to me. I know other\npeople\nwho have memories that go back before three years old or so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK, but how can you (all) be so certain your memories are \"real?\" See\nhttp://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/\nbee\n--\nJoshua A. Solomon\nhttp://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812050845p11edb59fs177bc5a6d4a00d0b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T16:45:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<15301.67.142.130.28.1228495197.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That question mark is itself a clue. You are trying to throw me off\nthe scent like a good lupine hero." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI doubt your theory?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My new theory is that brunians is Sev1.\n\nI will reread to look for clues.\n\nOn 12/5/08, Solomon, Joshua wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:50:31 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I remember being circumcised (I would have been eight days old),\nand I have memories that seem to precede that, but it is very\nhard to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "This is so unusual that I find it hard to believe. Google \"earliest\nmemories,\" and you'll find most adults cannot remember anything from\nthe\ntime before they were 3 or 3.5 years old." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Believe or disbelieve, it makes no difference to me. I know other\npeople\nwho have memories that go back before three years old or so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "OK, but how can you (all) be so certain your memories are \"real?\" See\nhttp://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/\nbee\n--\nJoshua A. Solomon\nhttp://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4939628D.7020405@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T17:19:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<49393B5B.8000608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nBut we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you pint out the the textev for the Heirogramates being behind the \ndying sun?\n\nI can point out that they *dont* likely have the resourced for an \nairlift (each archipelago on the machine-planet in Yesod is responsible \nfor an entire galaxy's fate in Briah) but there *is* a third mode of \nescape (into the past through the Botnical Gardens)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812050927n4607be4er5e3e15f972c6f333@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T17:27:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<4939628D.7020405@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy explained it back in June.\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2008-June/009108.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/08, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you pint out the the textev for the Heirogramates being behind the dying\nsun?\n\nI can point out that they *dont* likely have the resourced for an airlift\n(each archipelago on the machine-planet in Yesod is responsible for an\nentire galaxy's fate in Briah) but there *is* a third mode of escape (into\nthe past through the Botnical Gardens).\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T19:44:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812050927n4607be4er5e3e15f972c6f333@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure it's really fair to call the rebirth of Urth/Ushas as eugenics. \n\nUrth XXII\n\"Don't you see? The Hierarchs and their Hierodules and the Hierogrammates too have been trying to let us become what we were. What we can be. Isn't that right, my lady? That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us through the pain we brought them through. And \" I could not complete the thought. The words had become iron on my lips. \nApheta said, \"You in turn will make us go through what you did. I think you understand. But you\" she looked to Gunnie \"do not. Your race and ours are, perhaps, no more than each other's reproductive mechanisms. You are a woman, and so you say you produce your ovum so that there will someday be another woman. But your ovum would say it produces that woman so that someday there will be another ovum. We have wanted the New Sun to succeed as badly as he has wanted to himself. More urgently, in all truth. In saving your race he has saved ours; as we have saved ours of the future by saving yours.\" \n\nHere we have, yet again, the idea that the Amphisbaena symbolizes.\nand yet again, its about a larger cycle of death and resurrection.\n(remember, Severian sees the Ambhisbaena constellation - Into the Mountains - and at the Hierodules explain the nature of things to him, and they describe this Amphisbaena without using the word.)\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Friday, December 5, 2008 06:31 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\n\nJohn---\n\nI agree, and I especially like your formulation of \"the kind of Messiah humanity deserves.\" That's why such a Bad Example as Severian can be Epitome. What Urth deserves is the whole point.\n\nQuestion: How do we know evacuation was feasible? I suppose the starsailship could have been used an infinite number of times to evacuate millions at a time via time travel, but I don't recall it being mentioned. \n\nAlso, I have always simply assumed, in the absence of any direct evidence, that we are to regard all of humanity outside the Commonwealth as no longer really human---if the Ascians are any indication---and therefore no loss whatsoever, though they had an equal chance of surviving the Flood. But even if the Fountain is just a eugenics program, it's still complicated by a lack of information. Was the purpose to weed out those not worthy, and to decide whether the remainder were worthy? \n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:50:41 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n<93d4039f0812041250v33a6d8b4x72bf8d2456b31269 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\n* * *" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So, for me, the destruction of Urth to create Ushas is not a monstrous act.\nIf there is no afterlife in New Sun, if the Increate isn't real (no matter\nhow conscious his servants are of his wishes), then the destruction of Ushas\nis a brutal and monstrous one. If the Increate is real, and there is some\nsort of Life of the Soul in the books (of which textual evidence you've\nasked for I would posit all of the discussion of the survival of Severian's\n'personality' through so many types of death, and the corridors of time\nthemsevles) then this act, the destruction of Urth, the 'hitting of the\nreset button' is no longer monstrous, but another instance of the Increate\nhitting the reset button like he did with Noah, or Sodom, or countless other\nexamples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My point isn't that there's no Life of the Soul in the Urth books--I\nthink there pretty clearly is, at least of some sort.\n\nBut that Life of the Soul seems wholly divorced from the flooding of\nUrth. There is nothing literally redemptive about the destruction of\nUrth--it's just a big eugenics project, undertaken by artificial\nlifeforms who claim to be doing the will of God. I think the\ncomparison with Noah is much more apt than the comparison with the\nSecond Coming, and maybe the reading that Severian is \"the kind of\nMessiah humanity can produce,\" or maybe even \"the kind of Messiah\nhumanity deserves\" is dead-on.\n\nI'll just reply to Son of Witz here as well: if the Sun was dying for\nnatural causes, or because of the actions of Typhon, and if there was\nno feasible way to evacuate Urth to other settled planets, and the\ndestruction of Urth was the only way to cause this \"long term\nresurrection,\" then I would agree that it is a \"good thing\" in the\nultimate sense, and the casualties are unfortunately necessary.\n\nBut we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda.\n\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081204-0, 12/04/2008\nTested on: 12/5/2008 9:31:57 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T19:50:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First off, I am not a Christian and have no interest in guarding the\nsanctity of Christian tradition, if that is what you have assumed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, there are parallels between Severian and Jesus. My point was that, in\nthe end, I don't think they compare very well, for reasons already given.\nLet me put it another way: After Jesus did what he did on/for Earth, he\nclimbed back on the Heavenly Throne. After Severian did what he did to/for\nUrth, he stuck around on Ushas and got the bejesus kicked out of his\ngod-like powers.\n\n\nI don't pretend to have all the answers, much less The Answer. But I have\nlearned not to try to impose meaning on Wolfe's work by trying to use an\nexternal template to extrapolate from in order to fill in narrative gaps. No\nmatter what sources Wolfe may incorporate into his stories--the Bible,\nliterature, mythology, folklore, whatever--he *never* recasts that source\nmaterial quite the way he found it. He adds things, subtracts things, mixes\nthings up. \"The Tale of the Student and His Son\" (CLAW, XVII) is a NS\nexample that contains elements from several recognizable sources, but the\nwhole is very different from its parts and is not defined by them. The\nCinderella bit in PEACE is all screwed up. The Arthurian material in\nCASTLEVIEW is mixed up and mingled with unrelated material, etc.\n\nIn the Christian tradition, what Christ did on Earth was for the benefit of\nall mankind. What the Conciliator did to Urth to bring about the New\nBeginning of Ushas (something God in the O.T. tried with less than\nsatisfactory results) affected Urth-Ushas only. Mankind was on other planets\nspread all over the galaxy. In the Urth Cycle, the Hierogrammates are\nSeverian's puppet masters and they are screwing around with the whole damn\nuniverse, with or without the Increate's blessing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Roy,\nThanks for engaging the question.\nI find your insight to these works very sharp, and appreciate reading them.\nWhat you say about not applying a template to Wolfe is valuable. For my own purposes, I've imagined warped reflections, not a template.\n\nI do have to take exception with this:\n\"What the Conciliator did to Urth to bring about the New" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Beginning of Ushas affected Urth-Ushas only. Mankind was on other planets\nspread all over the galaxy.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The cyclical relationship of the Yesod / Briah, Hiero / Human is key here. Again, the Amphisbaena. The Heiros are looking out for themselves, but if they succeed, they will ultimately bring about the next creation of humanity.\nso, its a mutual benefit that ultimately affects a universal level which includes all the other worlds of humans and post humans. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What that adds up to on the symbolic level is debatable, and it has been\nmuch debated here for a long time. Are the Hierogrammates good guys?\nPersonally, I'm generally inclined to think so, but it depends on which side\nof the bed I get up on.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ha, I feel you.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T19:54:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:02 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\n\nAll or just about all mythology is written in an astronomical vocabulary.\n\nConsult \"Hamlet's Mill\" to learn more of this.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet%27s_Mill <= this article is more or\nless accurate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you Brunians. I look forward to reading the Hamlet's Mill book you linked to. I find this territory fascinating. And problematic, because of the flattening out to a mechanistic cosmos reading that most people take from this sort of speculation/research, which is of course why I brought it up.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812051200i726af9e1w1759f68aa3ad112b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T20:00:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how that rebuts the eugenic rationale for the\nHierogrammates. \"Trying to let us become what we were\" = \"trying to\nbreed us into Hieros.\"\n\nThey've slathered layers of mysticism and awe on the process, played\non Severian's (and the reader's!) desire for some kind of\ntranscendence, but at the bottom, they want to kill everyone with bad\ngenes, and most of the people with good genes too.\n\nIf there is something good and holy about the \"cleansing\" of Urth, it\nis not this \"reproductive cycle\" rationale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/08, Son of Witz wrote:\nI'm not sure it's really fair to call the rebirth of Urth/Ushas as eugenics.\n\nUrth XXII\n\"Don't you see? The Hierarchs and their Hierodules and the Hierogrammates too have been trying to let us become what we were. What we can be. Isn't that right, my lady? That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us through the pain we brought them through. And \" I could not complete the thought. The words had become iron on my lips.\nApheta said, \"You in turn will make us go through what you did. I think you understand. But you\" she looked to Gunnie \"do not. Your race and ours are, perhaps, no more than each other's reproductive mechanisms. You are a woman, and so you say you produce your ovum so that there will someday be another woman. But your ovum would say it produces that woman so that someday there will be another ovum. We have wanted the New Sun to succeed as badly as he has wanted to himself. More urgently, in all truth. In saving your race he has saved ours; as we have saved ours of the future by saving yours.\"\n\nHere we have, yet again, the idea that the Amphisbaena symbolizes.\nand yet again, its about a larger cycle of death and resurrection.\n(remember, Severian sees the Ambhisbaena constellation - Into the Mountains - and at the Hierodules explain the nature of things to him, and they describe this Amphisbaena without using the word.)\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Friday, December 5, 2008 06:31 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\n\nJohn---\n\nI agree, and I especially like your formulation of \"the kind of Messiah humanity deserves.\" That's why such a Bad Example as Severian can be Epitome. What Urth deserves is the whole point.\n\nQuestion: How do we know evacuation was feasible? I suppose the starsailship could have been used an infinite number of times to evacuate millions at a time via time travel, but I don't recall it being mentioned.\n\nAlso, I have always simply assumed, in the absence of any direct evidence, that we are to regard all of humanity outside the Commonwealth as no longer really human---if the Ascians are any indication---and therefore no loss whatsoever, though they had an equal chance of surviving the Flood. But even if the Fountain is just a eugenics program, it's still complicated by a lack of information. Was the purpose to weed out those not worthy, and to decide whether the remainder were worthy?\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:50:41 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n <93d4039f0812041250v33a6d8b4x72bf8d2456b31269 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\n* * *" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So, for me, the destruction of Urth to create Ushas is not a monstrous act.\nIf there is no afterlife in New Sun, if the Increate isn't real (no matter\nhow conscious his servants are of his wishes), then the destruction of Ushas\nis a brutal and monstrous one. If the Increate is real, and there is some\nsort of Life of the Soul in the books (of which textual evidence you've\nasked for I would posit all of the discussion of the survival of Severian's\n'personality' through so many types of death, and the corridors of time\nthemsevles) then this act, the destruction of Urth, the 'hitting of the\nreset button' is no longer monstrous, but another instance of the Increate\nhitting the reset button like he did with Noah, or Sodom, or countless other\nexamples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My point isn't that there's no Life of the Soul in the Urth books--I\nthink there pretty clearly is, at least of some sort.\n\nBut that Life of the Soul seems wholly divorced from the flooding of\nUrth. There is nothing literally redemptive about the destruction of\nUrth--it's just a big eugenics project, undertaken by artificial\nlifeforms who claim to be doing the will of God. I think the\ncomparison with Noah is much more apt than the comparison with the\nSecond Coming, and maybe the reading that Severian is \"the kind of\nMessiah humanity can produce,\" or maybe even \"the kind of Messiah\nhumanity deserves\" is dead-on.\n\nI'll just reply to Son of Witz here as well: if the Sun was dying for\nnatural causes, or because of the actions of Typhon, and if there was\nno feasible way to evacuate Urth to other settled planets, and the\ndestruction of Urth was the only way to cause this \"long term\nresurrection,\" then I would agree that it is a \"good thing\" in the\nultimate sense, and the casualties are unfortunately necessary.\n\nBut we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda.\n\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081204-0, 12/04/2008\nTested on: 12/5/2008 9:31:57 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T20:04:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812050845p11edb59fs177bc5a6d4a00d0b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since we're talking about memories, from preschool age, this seems to be a good spot for an anecdote about my preschool age son (4.5years). SonOfSonOfWitz, if you will.\n\nthis morning there was some discussion over our egg sandwiches about Chickens and Eggs. I'll spare you the details, but my wife said something about fertalized eggs, and my boy threw up his hands and said \"That stuff is just in Myths and Legends!!\"\n\nI threw up my arms in triumph as I tried not to spit out my egg sammy in laughter.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Friday, December 5, 2008 03:53 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Something Newish" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps brunians remembers remembering those things?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I still have 3 or 4 clear recollections from before my 3rd birthday,\nbut I think I just remember writing down my earliest memories when I\nwas in elementary school." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One exercise for recovering early memories consists of putting yourself\nwhere your earliest memory is and then seeing what you remember.\n\nMy family happens to have moved when I was three years old, so it is easy\nto tell which memories are earlier than that. There are very many of them.\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T20:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812051200i726af9e1w1759f68aa3ad112b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Friday, December 5, 2008 12:00 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\n\nI don't see how that rebuts the eugenic rationale for the\nHierogrammates. \"Trying to let us become what we were\" = \"trying to\nbreed us into Hieros.\"\n\nThey've slathered layers of mysticism and awe on the process, played\non Severian's (and the reader's!) desire for some kind of\ntranscendence, but at the bottom, they want to kill everyone with bad\ngenes, and most of the people with good genes too.\n\nIf there is something good and holy about the \"cleansing\" of Urth, it\nis not this \"reproductive cycle\" rationale." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I call bullshits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure it's really fair to call the rebirth of Urth/Ushas as eugenics.\n\nUrth XXII\n\"Don't you see? The Hierarchs and their Hierodules and the Hierogrammates too have been trying to let us become what we were. What we can be. Isn't that right, my lady? That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us through the pain we brought them through. And \" I could not complete the thought. The words had become iron on my lips.\nApheta said, \"You in turn will make us go through what you did. I think you understand. But you\" she looked to Gunnie \"do not. Your race and ours are, perhaps, no more than each other's reproductive mechanisms. You are a woman, and so you say you produce your ovum so that there will someday be another woman. But your ovum would say it produces that woman so that someday there will be another ovum. We have wanted the New Sun to succeed as badly as he has wanted to himself. More urgently, in all truth. In saving your race he has saved ours; as we have saved ours of the future by saving yours.\"\n\nHere we have, yet again, the idea that the Amphisbaena symbolizes.\nand yet again, its about a larger cycle of death and resurrection.\n(remember, Severian sees the Ambhisbaena constellation - Into the Mountains - and at the Hierodules explain the nature of things to him, and they describe this Amphisbaena without using the word.)\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Friday, December 5, 2008 06:31 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\n\nJohn---\n\nI agree, and I especially like your formulation of \"the kind of Messiah humanity deserves.\" That's why such a Bad Example as Severian can be Epitome. What Urth deserves is the whole point.\n\nQuestion: How do we know evacuation was feasible? I suppose the starsailship could have been used an infinite number of times to evacuate millions at a time via time travel, but I don't recall it being mentioned.\n\nAlso, I have always simply assumed, in the absence of any direct evidence, that we are to regard all of humanity outside the Commonwealth as no longer really human---if the Ascians are any indication---and therefore no loss whatsoever, though they had an equal chance of surviving the Flood. But even if the Fountain is just a eugenics program, it's still complicated by a lack of information. Was the purpose to weed out those not worthy, and to decide whether the remainder were worthy?\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:50:41 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n <93d4039f0812041250v33a6d8b4x72bf8d2456b31269 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\n* * *" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "So, for me, the destruction of Urth to create Ushas is not a monstrous act.\nIf there is no afterlife in New Sun, if the Increate isn't real (no matter\nhow conscious his servants are of his wishes), then the destruction of Ushas\nis a brutal and monstrous one. If the Increate is real, and there is some\nsort of Life of the Soul in the books (of which textual evidence you've\nasked for I would posit all of the discussion of the survival of Severian's\n'personality' through so many types of death, and the corridors of time\nthemsevles) then this act, the destruction of Urth, the 'hitting of the\nreset button' is no longer monstrous, but another instance of the Increate\nhitting the reset button like he did with Noah, or Sodom, or countless other\nexamples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My point isn't that there's no Life of the Soul in the Urth books--I\nthink there pretty clearly is, at least of some sort.\n\nBut that Life of the Soul seems wholly divorced from the flooding of\nUrth. There is nothing literally redemptive about the destruction of\nUrth--it's just a big eugenics project, undertaken by artificial\nlifeforms who claim to be doing the will of God. I think the\ncomparison with Noah is much more apt than the comparison with the\nSecond Coming, and maybe the reading that Severian is \"the kind of\nMessiah humanity can produce,\" or maybe even \"the kind of Messiah\nhumanity deserves\" is dead-on.\n\nI'll just reply to Son of Witz here as well: if the Sun was dying for\nnatural causes, or because of the actions of Typhon, and if there was\nno feasible way to evacuate Urth to other settled planets, and the\ndestruction of Urth was the only way to cause this \"long term\nresurrection,\" then I would agree that it is a \"good thing\" in the\nultimate sense, and the casualties are unfortunately necessary.\n\nBut we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying\nSun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was\nfeasible. The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other\nthan the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't\nadvance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda.\n\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081204-0, 12/04/2008\nTested on: 12/5/2008 9:31:57 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<655563.3752.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2008-12-05T20:17:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<1403.67.142.130.28.1228478009.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have memories of New Orleans although we moved when?I was 3...\n\nFunny thing about memory....a number of years ago a plane crashed into a high rise appartment building outside of Amsterdam on it's landing approach....horrible tragedy...\n\nOn the 5th or 10th anniversary, a number of people were asked where they were when they saw the footage, and doctors, lawyers, regular folks all came up with detailed answers....\n\n\nOnly problem was that there was never any film footage of the crash.....\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Fri, 12/5/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) Something Newish\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, December 5, 2008, 3:53 AM\nPerhaps brunians remembers remembering those things?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still have 3 or 4 clear recollections from before my 3rd birthday,\nbut I think I just remember writing down my earliest memories when I\nwas in elementary school." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One exercise for recovering early memories consists of putting yourself\nwhere your earliest memory is and then seeing what you remember.\n\nMy family happens to have moved when I was three years old, so it is easy\nto tell which memories are earlier than that. There are very many of them.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T20:28:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see how that rebuts the eugenic rationale for the\nHierogrammates. \"Trying to let us become what we were\" = \"trying to\nbreed us into Hieros.\"\n\nThey've slathered layers of mysticism and awe on the process, played\non Severian's (and the reader's!) desire for some kind of\ntranscendence, but at the bottom, they want to kill everyone with bad\ngenes, and most of the people with good genes too.\n\nIf there is something good and holy about the \"cleansing\" of Urth, it\nis not this \"reproductive cycle\" rationale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I call bullshits." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry, that was rude of me.\n\nheres a detail that seems to speak of the Sanctity of this renewal process.\n\nUrth XIX:\n\"I told her what the aquastor Malrubius had told me upon another night upon another beach: that in a previous manvantara, the men of that cycle had shaped companions for themselves from other races, and that at the destruction of their universe these had escaped here to Yesod; that they ruled our universe through the Hierodules, whom they themselves had shaped. \"\n\nManvantara???\n\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nfrom wikipedia:\nManvantara or Manuvantara [1], or age of a Manu [2], the Hindu progenitor of mankind, is an astronomical period of time measurement. Manvantara is a Sanskrit sandhi, a combination of words manu and antara, manu-antara or manvantara, literally meaning the duration of a Manu, or his life span [3].\n\nEach Manvantara is created and ruled by a specific Manu, who in turn is created by Brahma, the Creator himself. Manu creates the world, and all its species during that period of time, each Manvantara lasts the lifetime of a Manu, upon whose death, Brahma creates another Manu to continue the cycle of Creation or Shristi, Vishnu on his part takes a new avtar, and also a new Indra and Saptarishis are appointed.\n\nEventually it takes 14 Manus and their respective Manvantaras to create a Kalpa, Aeon, or a “Day of Brahma”, according to the Hindu Time Cycles and also the Vedic timeline. Thereafter, at the end of each Kalpa, there is a period of dissolution or Pralaya [4], wherein the world is destroyed and it is lies in a state of rest, during a period called the, “Night of Brahma”.\n\nAfter that the creator, Brahma starts his cycle of creation all over again, in an endless cycle of creation followed by Destruction for which Shiva, Hindu God of destruction, and also renewal, is invoked towards the end of each such cycle [5].\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nI think this speaks to the NewSun setup quite well. \nBrahman is the Increate. Manu could be a Heirogrammite Severian a Shiva or Kali. something like that. again, I don't mean it as an exact template.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812051238l472b814dk79035c853033d749@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T20:38:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't see how that rebuts the eugenic rationale for the\nHierogrammates. \"Trying to let us become what we were\" = \"trying to\nbreed us into Hieros.\"\n\nThey've slathered layers of mysticism and awe on the process, played\non Severian's (and the reader's!) desire for some kind of\ntranscendence, but at the bottom, they want to kill everyone with bad\ngenes, and most of the people with good genes too.\n\nIf there is something good and holy about the \"cleansing\" of Urth, it\nis not this \"reproductive cycle\" rationale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I call bullshits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sorry, that was rude of me.\n\nheres a detail that seems to speak of the Sanctity of this renewal process.\n\nUrth XIX:\n\"I told her what the aquastor Malrubius had told me upon another night upon another beach: that in a previous manvantara, the men of that cycle had shaped companions for themselves from other races, and that at the destruction of their universe these had escaped here to Yesod; that they ruled our universe through the Hierodules, whom they themselves had shaped. \"\n\nManvantara???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That speaks to the ability of the Hierogrammates and their agents to\nrefer to their eugenics project with sacred language." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nfrom wikipedia:\nManvantara or Manuvantara [1], or age of a Manu [2], the Hindu progenitor of mankind, is an astronomical period of time measurement. Manvantara is a Sanskrit sandhi, a combination of words manu and antara, manu-antara or manvantara, literally meaning the duration of a Manu, or his life span [3].\n\nEach Manvantara is created and ruled by a specific Manu, who in turn is created by Brahma, the Creator himself. Manu creates the world, and all its species during that period of time, each Manvantara lasts the lifetime of a Manu, upon whose death, Brahma creates another Manu to continue the cycle of Creation or Shristi, Vishnu on his part takes a new avtar, and also a new Indra and Saptarishis are appointed.\n\nEventually it takes 14 Manus and their respective Manvantaras to create a Kalpa, Aeon, or a “Day of Brahma”, according to the Hindu Time Cycles and also the Vedic timeline. Thereafter, at the end of each Kalpa, there is a period of dissolution or Pralaya [4], wherein the world is destroyed and it is lies in a state of rest, during a period called the, “Night of Brahma”.\n\nAfter that the creator, Brahma starts his cycle of creation all over again, in an endless cycle of creation followed by Destruction for which Shiva, Hindu God of destruction, and also renewal, is invoked towards the end of each such cycle [5].\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nI think this speaks to the NewSun setup quite well.\nBrahman is the Increate. Manu could be a Heirogrammite Severian a Shiva or Kali. something like that. again, I don't mean it as an exact template.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-05T21:20:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812051238l472b814dk79035c853033d749@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Manvantara???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That speaks to the ability of the Hierogrammates and their agents to\nrefer to their eugenics project with sacred language." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "well, I'll no longer try to convince you.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4939A64B.3040705@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T22:08:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812050927n4607be4er5e3e15f972c6f333@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nRoy explained it back in June.\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2008-June/009108.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His argument is well reasoned, but it rests on some fine hair splitting \nthat falls below the demonstrated level of lexical resolution of \ndialogue in the Book that is translated across universes and back in \ntime. \"we condemned\" simply can't be taken at literal face value in a \nbook deliberately written to be ambiguous at every level." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812051415s708ff779m7ce6b6b6a08db1a2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-05T22:15:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<4939A64B.3040705@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/08, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy explained it back in June." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2008-June/009108.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His argument is well reasoned, but it rests on some fine hair splitting that\nfalls below the demonstrated level of lexical resolution of dialogue in the\nBook that is translated across universes and back in time. \"we condemned\"\nsimply can't be taken at literal face value in a book deliberately written\nto be ambiguous at every level." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"We have condemned\" strikes me as remarkably straight-forward. A\ncharacter claims responsibility for something that, logically, she\nwould be better off denying. What's your proposed reading of that\nbit?\n\nI guess it could mean \"We (by not taking direct action after Typhon\nscrewed everything up) have (in effect) condemned...\" but that seems\nto me to be a more tortured reason.\n\nAdditionally, without Apheta's claim of responsibility for the black\nhole, what are we to make of it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14734.67.142.130.13.1228532517.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T03:01:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812050845p11edb59fs177bc5a6d4a00d0b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interestingly enough, long before I read TBoTNS I would have these\noccasional dreams or visions or hallucinations etc wherein I was to be\ntaken up by space aliens and judged in some way and if I was found wanting\nI would be castrated. These were in no way pleasant, and sometimes could\nbe quite distracting. Of course, remember that this is someone whose\nearliest memory is getting the end of his penis cut off talking to you.\n\nAnyway.\n\nYou can imagine that when I read TBoTNS I was completely blown away. At\nthat point I knew I had to talk with Wolfe about it. I met him for the\nfirst time in the early 80's in the company of John Cramer, a theoretical\nphysicist and childhood friend of his, and we had a long discussion, in\nthe course of which and among many other things I discovered that Wolfe\nwas not a gnostic but an orthodox Catholic, I first heard the name 'Jorge\nLuis Borges' as someone whose writing he thought I might enjoy and we\nagreed that my hallucinations or what have you were probably caused by the\nexperience of reading the book (not necessarily just *my* experience of\nreading the book) echoing back up the timeline.\n\nAnyway, the whole thing was pretty seminal for me and is deep in towards\nthe core of my ideas about time and Reality and so on.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That question mark is itself a clue. You are trying to throw me off\nthe scent like a good lupine hero.\n\nOn 12/5/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I doubt your theory?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My new theory is that brunians is Sev1.\n\nI will reread to look for clues.\n\nOn 12/5/08, Solomon, Joshua wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:50:31 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I remember being circumcised (I would have been eight days old),\nand I have memories that seem to precede that, but it is very\nhard to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "This is so unusual that I find it hard to believe. Google\n\"earliest\nmemories,\" and you'll find most adults cannot remember anything\nfrom\nthe\ntime before they were 3 or 3.5 years old." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Believe or disbelieve, it makes no difference to me. I know other\npeople\nwho have memories that go back before three years old or so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "OK, but how can you (all) be so certain your memories are \"real?\" See\nhttp://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/\nbee\n--\nJoshua A. Solomon\nhttp://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4939EE72.4050305@foisdin.com>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Dubbeld", "address": "andy at foisdin.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T03:16:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<24787.42978.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\nBut I'm not sure about \"after death,\" either. I mean, in a generally Christian situation, once you die, isn't that the end of your moral \"trial\"? Everything after is just consequence. But Able still has plenty to prove/learn about himself. That seems like a pre- rather than post-death situation.\n\nCraig" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heaven and Hell: not terribly scriptural. There's ideas present throughout the text, but never the entirely spiritual mode of existence that \"modern\" Christianity has envisioned.\n\nDo note that parables are never intended to impart doctrine. They play with present understandings (pointedly), rather than bringing new insight.\n\nThe scriptural idea of heaven seems to be much more bodily; a kind of future earth where we've sorted ourselves out, and God has come back to live amongst us (with subsequent resurrection and potentially judgment).\n\nIt resonates a little with the idea of Ushas being the stage on which this eventually plays out.\n\nAndy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2333.67.142.130.13.1228533935.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T03:25:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<4939EE72.4050305@foisdin.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heaven and Hell: not terribly scriptural." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The original meaning of these terms has been obscured to some extent.\n\nHeaven is the sky.\n\nHell is the Antarctic sky, that is, the part of the sky that is never seen\nfrom the northern hemisphere (the people who developed, or redeveloped,\nthese ideas lived in the northern hemisphere).\n\nAll of you who are having fun with the online \"Hamlet's Mill\" will be\nrunning into these ideas if you haven't already.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\nThere's ideas present throughout" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the text, but never the entirely spiritual mode of existence that \"modern\"\nChristianity has envisioned.\n\nDo note that parables are never intended to impart doctrine. They play\nwith present understandings (pointedly), rather than bringing new insight.\n\nThe scriptural idea of heaven seems to be much more bodily; a kind of\nfuture earth where we've sorted ourselves out, and God has come back to\nlive amongst us (with subsequent resurrection and potentially judgment).\n\nIt resonates a little with the idea of Ushas being the stage on which this\neventually plays out.\n\nAndy\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493A10E8.1030109@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T05:43:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<655563.3752.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stuart Hamm wrote:\nI have memories of New Orleans although we moved when I was 3...\n \nFunny thing about memory....a number of years ago a plane crashed into a \nhigh rise appartment building outside of Amsterdam on it's landing \napproach....horrible tragedy...\n \nOn the 5th or 10th anniversary, a number of people were asked where they \nwere when they saw the footage, and doctors, lawyers, regular folks all \ncame up with detailed answers....\n \n \nOnly problem was that there was never any film footage of the crash....." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right - same with lots of people and the Kennedy Assassination, though \nthe Zapruder film wasn't broadcast until 1975." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493A1608.8020800@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T06:04:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812051415s708ff779m7ce6b6b6a08db1a2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nOn 12/5/08, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Roy explained it back in June." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2008-June/009108.html\nHis argument is well reasoned, but it rests on some fine hair splitting that\nfalls below the demonstrated level of lexical resolution of dialogue in the\nBook that is translated across universes and back in time. \"we condemned\"\nsimply can't be taken at literal face value in a book deliberately written\nto be ambiguous at every level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"We have condemned\" strikes me as remarkably straight-forward. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So do it. It's very suspicious that a tongueless being from another \nuniverse is so succinct in their communication with a race they've never \nmet before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A\ncharacter claims responsibility for something that, logically, she\nwould be better off denying. What's your proposed reading of that\nbit?\n\nI guess it could mean \"We (by not taking direct action after Typhon\nscrewed everything up) have (in effect) condemned...\" but that seems\nto me to be a more tortured reason." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or perhaps they have condemned the peoples of Urth in the soverign \ngovernmental sense, and taken their fate out of the hands of humans \nafter human agency allowed the poisoning of the sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Additionally, without Apheta's claim of responsibility for the black\nhole, what are we to make of it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty sure there was talk of Scylla being behind it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493A7CEB.5080901@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T13:23:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nyou know the gist, right?\nThe Sun is Christ. Judas is Scorpio. The Judas Kiss is the Sun in Scorpio, which is then subsequently weaker (lower and lower in the horizon, and more distant), until it 'dies' a few days before Christmas, (seeming to stand still for 3 days) then coming back to life on Chrismas (seeming to move again, and ascending in the sky). and such like, with Easter being the Spring Equinox Fertility time.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hold on -- the date of the celebration of Christmas was chosen to co-opt \nthe Roman holiday of Saturnalia. Almost everyone agrees that could not \nbe the real birthday of Jesus -- shepherds are not out with their flocks \non a mid-winter night. Christmas was moved to the time of the pagan \nholiday, which had very definite astrological and solar connections, of \ncourse. That doesn't make Christ a solar deity.\n\nAs for Easter, the time of year for that comes from the Jewish Passover, \nso that one's close to right. There could be solar associations with \nthat holiday, originally. By the way, the Judas kiss is supposed to have \noccurred near Passover (Spring), so the \"Sun in Scorpio\" speculation is \nnonsense." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812060946j50e4b3a5me0831a5d201006dc@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T17:46:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<493A7CEB.5080901@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not only that, but the astrological deck is stacked pretty well.\n\nSee, if Christ was born in late December, he's a solar allegory.\n\nIf he was born in late August or early September, that's the source of\nthe virgin birth legend.\n\nIf he was born in late September, early October, then he's a\nLibra--that's why people think he'll come again as a judge!\n\nIf Christ was a Pisces, that's the origin of the fish symbol. If he\nwas a Leo, the Lion of Judah. Aquarius? The conversation with the\nwidow at the well. Sagitarius? Christ is depicted as a bowman in\nRevelation. Aries? Sacrificial lamb. Taurus? Sacrificial bull, like\non Crete. Capricorn? Sacrificial goat, obviously. Gemini? Christ's\ntwo natures, god and man.\n\nI got nothing for Scorpio or Cancer. But the deck is still pretty well\nstacked, isn't it? Any system, significantly complex, can be\nanalogized to the zodiac." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/6/08, Dave Tallman wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "you know the gist, right?\nThe Sun is Christ. Judas is Scorpio. The Judas Kiss is the Sun in Scorpio,\nwhich is then subsequently weaker (lower and lower in the horizon, and\nmore distant), until it 'dies' a few days before Christmas, (seeming to\nstand still for 3 days) then coming back to life on Chrismas (seeming to\nmove again, and ascending in the sky). and such like, with Easter being\nthe Spring Equinox Fertility time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hold on -- the date of the celebration of Christmas was chosen to co-opt\nthe Roman holiday of Saturnalia. Almost everyone agrees that could not\nbe the real birthday of Jesus -- shepherds are not out with their flocks\non a mid-winter night. Christmas was moved to the time of the pagan\nholiday, which had very definite astrological and solar connections, of\ncourse. That doesn't make Christ a solar deity.\n\nAs for Easter, the time of year for that comes from the Jewish Passover,\nso that one's close to right. There could be solar associations with\nthat holiday, originally. By the way, the Judas kiss is supposed to have\noccurred near Passover (Spring), so the \"Sun in Scorpio\" speculation is\nnonsense.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1486.72.171.0.140.1228590637.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T19:10:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812060946j50e4b3a5me0831a5d201006dc@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Christ was a Pisces, that's the origin of the fish symbol." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sun on the spring equinox moving into Pisces is the more likely origin\nof the fish symbol.\n\nThe person who came up with the astrological schema that you are\ncritiquing had one correct idea: mythology is related to astronomy.\nUnfortunately, he or she did not bother learning the details of *how*\nmythology is related to astronomy.\n\nAstronomy means 'naming the stars'. There was a whole Christian astronomy\ndeveloped in the early centuries AD which did not catch on.\n\n\"Lo Spaccio della Bestia Trionfante\" by Giordano Bruno is an astronomy, in\nthe course of which Brother Giordano renames all of the constellations (it\nis also a very funny book, and one of the most accessible of Bruno's\nworks).\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7D4A7FFC06084EB0AC6D9EB0649599D8@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T21:56:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<1486.72.171.0.140.1228590637.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The sun on the spring equinox moving into Pisces is the more likely origin\nof the fish symbol." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "People rarely comprehend how philsophically tight Christianity fit within \nthe 1st century world helping it spread so quickly. The Jews were looking \nfor a messiah at the time and Jesus's birth occurred at about time of the \nrising of Pisces. Christians were certainly aware of this. It's hardly \nsurprising that gnostic cults would gleefully adopt the Christian mythos-- \nmuch to the chagrin of apostolic Christians. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0812061720r689da3a1if2fd2c2e6e8b5b7d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-07T01:20:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<49393B5B.8000608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the main reason Wolfe didn't evacuate Urth rather than flooding it,\nother than linking the story to other world-flood myths, especially Genesis,\nis that an airlift really sucks as a climax, whereas a flood is really cool." } ] }, { "message_id": "<493B5EB3.6070508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-07T05:27:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Old mystery ...", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0812061720r689da3a1if2fd2c2e6e8b5b7d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nI think the main reason Wolfe didn't evacuate Urth rather than flooding \nit, other than linking the story to other world-flood myths, especially \nGenesis, is that an airlift really sucks as a climax, whereas a flood is \nreally cool." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, vanishing into the past is cool, they even did a Star \nTrek episode around it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T19:20:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<14734.67.142.130.13.1228532517.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 9:01 PM, wrote:\nwe\nagreed that my hallucinations or what have you were probably caused by the\nexperience of reading the book (not necessarily just *my* experience of\nreading the book) echoing back up the timeline." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brunians, have you looked into the work of Endel Tulving?\n\nhttp://www.rotman-baycrest.on.ca/index.php?section=219\n\nWhen I ran across mention of him a few years back, I was relieved to\nknow that I wasn't the only person thinking of memory as effectively\ntime travel." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6307.67.142.130.38.1228764528.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T19:28:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 9:01 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "we\nagreed that my hallucinations or what have you were probably caused by\nthe\nexperience of reading the book (not necessarily just *my* experience of\nreading the book) echoing back up the timeline." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunians, have you looked into the work of Endel Tulving?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had not. Thank you very much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.rotman-baycrest.on.ca/index.php?section=219" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When I ran across mention of him a few years back, I was relieved to\nknow that I wasn't the only person thinking of memory as effectively\ntime travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe it is a relatively common insight.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T19:32:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<6307.67.142.130.38.1228764528.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:28 PM, wrote:\nBrunians, have you looked into the work of Endel Tulving?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had not. Thank you very much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://www.rotman-baycrest.on.ca/index.php?section=219" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When I ran across mention of him a few years back, I was relieved to\nknow that I wasn't the only person thinking of memory as effectively\ntime travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe it is a relatively common insight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You wouldn't think that from the looks I get when tipsily explaining\nmy unified theory of existence." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2432.67.142.130.28.1228766514.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T20:01:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:28 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Brunians, have you looked into the work of Endel Tulving?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had not. Thank you very much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "http://www.rotman-baycrest.on.ca/index.php?section=219" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When I ran across mention of him a few years back, I was relieved to\nknow that I wasn't the only person thinking of memory as effectively\ntime travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe it is a relatively common insight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You wouldn't think that from the looks I get when tipsily explaining\nmy unified theory of existence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Relatively.\"\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T20:10:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "<2432.67.142.130.28.1228766514.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 2:01 PM, wrote:\nI believe it is a relatively common insight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You wouldn't think that from the looks I get when tipsily explaining\nmy unified theory of existence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Relatively.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My relatives usually compose the audience." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7897.67.142.130.28.1228767252.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T20:14:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Something Newish", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 2:01 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I believe it is a relatively common insight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You wouldn't think that from the looks I get when tipsily explaining\nmy unified theory of existence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Relatively.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My relatives usually compose the audience." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Oi.\"\n\n\n." } ] } ] }