{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5266", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5266, "subject": "Abaia and the undines", "messages": 139, "voices": 20, "first": "2008-12-05T23:12:31+00:00", "last": "2008-12-22T01:13:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4939B55F.8020801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-05T23:12:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the \nundines. Does anyone \"know\" or care to guess? IIRC, Baldanders seems to \nthink they evolved for a watery future, which may be true.\n\nA related question is why they are necessarily or assumed to be evil. \nI've been moving away from a perverted-Christ interpretation (though \nthat aspect can never be dismissed) since that discussion began (for \nexample, I see no reason to assume that the Hierogrammates/Hierodules \nreally work for the Increate at all, or do his bidding, or that the \nIncreate caused the Flood any more than God causes the deaths of puppies).\n\nThe only straw I have to clutch at is that they are basically water \nelementals. In the Seven Worlds cosmology, things are just the way they \nare, as in folklore. So, for example, don't trust the wood fairies, but \nrun from the water fairies, and stay away from giants, etc. Just as \nfairies have their own plans that don't really involve us (see John \nCrowley's Little, Big), the Hieros do what they do without much interest \nin human morality, and the undines even less so.\n\nSeveral months ago, there was a discussion about what the New Sun would \ndo to the undines. Clearly they are alive and well on Ushas, whether \nAbais himself survived or not. But they would have vanished utterly in \nMaster Ash's timeline except for the small ones who could escape (like \nIdas).\n\nSo why would they oppose Severian at all? Or was it rather the \nCommonwealth they opposed, perhaps as the heirs of Typhon and the first \nempire? You'd think thet'd want the New Sun to come and bring the Clean \nSlate with lots of water on the side." } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812051605k457c5dacvae535f4be1b2a527@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T00:05:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<4939B55F.8020801@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmmm.\n\nAs to why they would want to stop Severian, I can only think that one of the\nstated reasons that these massive giants don't just wipe out everyone\nthemselves is that they are more interested in enslaving humanity, not\ndestroying it. Hence, a flood that destroys Humanity pretty much leaves\nthem where they already were...i.e. with a bunch of fun Undines to play\nwith, but not much else. So, I would think they want to capture decaying\nhumanity for their own purposes. The fact that decaying humanity is wiped\nfrom the Urth means they having nothing left to do, I suppose. All the best\ntoys would be gone!\n\nAnd I'm not going to weigh in on the Christ thing again....of fuck it, why\nnot! If it is not meant to have any resonance with the idea of there being\nsome sort of Increate involved here, then Wolfe need never have done things\nlike turn water into wine. The Hiero's didn't do that. It doesn't really\nmake a ton of sense for the 'claw' to do it, but it certainly has some\nspecial resonance vis a vis a certain past messiah, right? There are lots\nof examples like that, which aren't things 'created' by the Undines or the\nHierdules, but are things that happen to Sev on his journey. Are these all\nred herrings by Wolfe to throw us off the course? Could be. That would be\na poor interpretation in my book, but then again, it's our book, not my\nbook, isn't it!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:12 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the undines.\nDoes anyone \"know\" or care to guess? IIRC, Baldanders seems to think they\nevolved for a watery future, which may be true.\n\nA related question is why they are necessarily or assumed to be evil. I've\nbeen moving away from a perverted-Christ interpretation (though that aspect\ncan never be dismissed) since that discussion began (for example, I see no\nreason to assume that the Hierogrammates/Hierodules really work for the\nIncreate at all, or do his bidding, or that the Increate caused the Flood\nany more than God causes the deaths of puppies).\n\nThe only straw I have to clutch at is that they are basically water\nelementals. In the Seven Worlds cosmology, things are just the way they are,\nas in folklore. So, for example, don't trust the wood fairies, but run from\nthe water fairies, and stay away from giants, etc. Just as fairies have\ntheir own plans that don't really involve us (see John Crowley's Little,\nBig), the Hieros do what they do without much interest in human morality,\nand the undines even less so.\n\nSeveral months ago, there was a discussion about what the New Sun would do\nto the undines. Clearly they are alive and well on Ushas, whether Abais\nhimself survived or not. But they would have vanished utterly in Master\nAsh's timeline except for the small ones who could escape (like Idas).\n\nSo why would they oppose Severian at all? Or was it rather the Commonwealth\nthey opposed, perhaps as the heirs of Typhon and the first empire? You'd\nthink thet'd want the New Sun to come and bring the Clean Slate with lots of\nwater on the side.\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081204-0, 12/04/2008\nTested on: 12/5/2008 6:12:33 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T00:16:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812051605k457c5dacvae535f4be1b2a527@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "for example, I see no reason to assume that the Hierogrammates/Hierodules \nreally work for the Increate at all, or do his bidding, or that the \nIncreate caused the Flood any more than God causes the deaths of puppies)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I find HARD to swallow, is the idea that a devout Catholic, a self-proclaimed \"Catholic Author\", would write a sprawling Messianic tale about Death & Resurrection which had it's ultimate point that everything that seemed to be the Work of God was just a bunch of selfish manipulation by charlatanes. \n\nThat is the most preposterous idea I've seen yet in conjunction with this work.\n\nDoes anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of Christian symbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say \"sucker, you're faith is all a lie\"?\n\nI have to say, it's not a compelling reading.\n\n~sonofwitz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4939E5BD.1050306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-06T02:38:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that is a difficult interpretation to accept, on many levels. It's unsatisfying to me, too---an atheist---even more than it would be in any other kind of story. I don't suggest it.\n\nOn the other hand, God DOESN'T cause the deaths of puppies, does he? We cause our own pain and each other's. So couldn't it be true that selfish manipulation by charlatans carries out the Work of God anyway---or even that it ALWAYS gets carried out DESPITE their manipulations?\n\nThe sticking point is what kind of Work is worth (or worth overlooking) such atrocities. John's link will take you right into a discussion of exactly that. I don't know the answer. \n\nThe Manvantara scheme sounds pretty mechanistic and pointless to me too, unless I missed something. It almost seems to propose a \"hungry universe\"---that the universe is just plain hungry, generating and destroying life like a cosmic woodchipper. This idea is closer to what most mythologies assume than it is to any Christian universe. All the astronomer societies believed that deep time crushes humanity repeatedly, on a vast scale. \n\nYou'd think the Increate would offer some escape from this if he is God. Maybe he isn't. Maybe he does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:16:57 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "for example, I see no reason to assume that the Hierogrammates/Hierodules \nreally work for the Increate at all, or do his bidding, or that the \nIncreate caused the Flood any more than God causes the deaths of puppies)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n\nWhat I find HARD to swallow, is the idea that a devout Catholic, a self-proclaimed \"Catholic Author\", would write a sprawling Messianic tale about Death & Resurrection which had it's ultimate point that everything that seemed to be the Work of God was just a bunch of selfish manipulation by charlatanes. \n\nThat is the most preposterous idea I've seen yet in conjunction with this work.\n\nDoes anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of Christian symbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say \"sucker, you're faith is all a lie\"?\n\nI have to say, it's not a compelling reading.\n\n~sonofwitz\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11112.67.142.130.13.1228531535.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T02:45:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<4939E5BD.1050306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "God is omniscient and omnipotent.\n\nWhat occurs is the will of God.\n\nWhat is not the will of God does not occur.\n\nThat's it.\n\nIt's truly amazing to me how people complicate this.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, that is a difficult interpretation to accept, on many levels. It's\nunsatisfying to me, too---an atheist---even more than it would be in any\nother kind of story. I don't suggest it.\n\nOn the other hand, God DOESN'T cause the deaths of puppies, does he? We\ncause our own pain and each other's. So couldn't it be true that selfish\nmanipulation by charlatans carries out the Work of God anyway---or even\nthat it ALWAYS gets carried out DESPITE their manipulations?\n\nThe sticking point is what kind of Work is worth (or worth overlooking)\nsuch atrocities. John's link will take you right into a discussion of\nexactly that. I don't know the answer.\n\nThe Manvantara scheme sounds pretty mechanistic and pointless to me too,\nunless I missed something. It almost seems to propose a \"hungry\nuniverse\"---that the universe is just plain hungry, generating and\ndestroying life like a cosmic woodchipper. This idea is closer to what\nmost mythologies assume than it is to any Christian universe. All the\nastronomer societies believed that deep time crushes humanity repeatedly,\non a vast scale.\n\nYou'd think the Increate would offer some escape from this if he is God.\nMaybe he isn't. Maybe he does.\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:16:57 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "for example, I see no reason to assume that the\nHierogrammates/Hierodules\nreally work for the Increate at all, or do his bidding, or that the\nIncreate caused the Flood any more than God causes the deaths of\npuppies)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I find HARD to swallow, is the idea that a devout Catholic, a\nself-proclaimed \"Catholic Author\", would write a sprawling Messianic tale\nabout Death & Resurrection which had it's ultimate point that everything\nthat seemed to be the Work of God was just a bunch of selfish manipulation\nby charlatanes.\n\nThat is the most preposterous idea I've seen yet in conjunction with this\nwork.\n\nDoes anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of\nChristian symbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say\n\"sucker, you're faith is all a lie\"?\n\nI have to say, it's not a compelling reading.\n\n~sonofwitz\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081205-0, 12/05/2008\nTested on: 12/5/2008 9:38:54 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<05E02316-317D-4B1E-994F-BBBFD5FE3ABA@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T03:00:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<11112.67.142.130.13.1228531535.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 5, 2008, at 6:45 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nGod is omniscient and omnipotent.\n\nWhat occurs is the will of God.\n\nWhat is not the will of God does not occur.\n\nThat's it.\n\nIt's truly amazing to me how people complicate this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "i don't relate to the standard question, \"why does God allow evil?\" \neither.\n\nit just HAS to BE.\n\nlook at the yin yang symbol as another basic, perfect symbol of it.\n\nit's NOT the duality of it.\nit's the dance.\n\nsounds trite, but it's true.\n\nand WHO are WE to judge?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812051916k2cd11652o25bd97e7ddce132e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T03:16:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<11112.67.142.130.13.1228531535.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that's quite right.\n\nWhat occurs occurs by the will of God. I.e., He created all that is,\nand possesses mastery--He could at any time and in any matter\nintervene decisively.\n\nIt does not follow (or at least, so Christians say) that what occurs\noccurs in accordance to the will of God.\n\nOf course, many are persuaded that the problem of evil is\nintractable--that this distinction is without meaning. I take it that\nWolfe is not among them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/5/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nGod is omniscient and omnipotent.\n\nWhat occurs is the will of God.\n\nWhat is not the will of God does not occur.\n\nThat's it.\n\nIt's truly amazing to me how people complicate this.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, that is a difficult interpretation to accept, on many levels. It's\nunsatisfying to me, too---an atheist---even more than it would be in any\nother kind of story. I don't suggest it.\n\nOn the other hand, God DOESN'T cause the deaths of puppies, does he? We\ncause our own pain and each other's. So couldn't it be true that selfish\nmanipulation by charlatans carries out the Work of God anyway---or even\nthat it ALWAYS gets carried out DESPITE their manipulations?\n\nThe sticking point is what kind of Work is worth (or worth overlooking)\nsuch atrocities. John's link will take you right into a discussion of\nexactly that. I don't know the answer.\n\nThe Manvantara scheme sounds pretty mechanistic and pointless to me too,\nunless I missed something. It almost seems to propose a \"hungry\nuniverse\"---that the universe is just plain hungry, generating and\ndestroying life like a cosmic woodchipper. This idea is closer to what\nmost mythologies assume than it is to any Christian universe. All the\nastronomer societies believed that deep time crushes humanity repeatedly,\non a vast scale.\n\nYou'd think the Increate would offer some escape from this if he is God.\nMaybe he isn't. Maybe he does.\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:16:57 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11793.67.142.130.13.1228533687.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T03:21:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812051916k2cd11652o25bd97e7ddce132e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that's quite right.\n\nWhat occurs occurs by the will of God. I.e., He created all that is,\nand possesses mastery--He could at any time and in any matter\nintervene decisively." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sometimes He chooses not to. This is an act of will." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It does not follow (or at least, so Christians say) that what occurs\noccurs in accordance to the will of God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See above.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50CD1F046692403FB2C540234BD53C56@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T03:47:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of \nChristian\nsymbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say \"sucker, you're \nfaith is all a lie\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd be curious to read a point-by-point detailing of all this supposedly \nexplicit Christian symbolism in \"The Book of the New Sun\". I'm usually \npretty good at this sort of thing. But I don't find it especially \noverwhelming.\n\nI seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe balked giving \nany place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He explicitly corrected Jordan \nby stating he was a \"Christ-figure\". Well, Christ-figures are a \ndime-a-dozen. Raymond Shaw in \"The Manchurian Candidate\" is a Christ-figure. \nObi-Wan Kenobi is a Christ-figure.\n\nYes, there's the who Mediator thing, but that always struck me as more of \nthe Gnostic symbolism rather than Christian (don't get mad Gnostics, you \nknow what people mean by \"Christian\"). If I were going to designate \nSeverian/Conciliator as something Biblical, it would probably be Elijah or \nJohn the Baptist (who was also Elijah in a sense, so Jesus said) or, better, \n*Adam*.\n\nI meant to ask Wolfe in Chicago--but I completely didn't get around to it, \nbut I did mention it to Nigel--what he would say to someone who stated that \nhis entire Sun cycle of stories is to Gnosticism as The Chronicles of Naria \nare to Orthodox Christianity.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<02307108-3B5A-40A5-AF41-70DC2D6FFCC2@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T04:28:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<50CD1F046692403FB2C540234BD53C56@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 5, 2008, at 7:47 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nDoes anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this \nfull of Christian\nsymbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say \"sucker, \nyou're faith is all a lie\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd be curious to read a point-by-point detailing of all this \nsupposedly explicit Christian symbolism in \"The Book of the New \nSun\". I'm usually pretty good at this sort of thing. But I don't \nfind it especially overwhelming.\n\nI seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe \nbalked giving any place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He \nexplicitly corrected Jordan by stating he was a \"Christ-figure\". \nWell, Christ-figures are a dime-a-dozen. Raymond Shaw in \"The \nManchurian Candidate\" is a Christ-figure. Obi-Wan Kenobi is a Christ- \nfigure.\n\nYes, there's the who Mediator thing, but that always struck me as \nmore of the Gnostic symbolism rather than Christian (don't get mad \nGnostics, you know what people mean by \"Christian\"). If I were going \nto designate Severian/Conciliator as something Biblical, it would \nprobably be Elijah or John the Baptist (who was also Elijah in a \nsense, so Jesus said) or, better, *Adam*.\n\nI meant to ask Wolfe in Chicago--but I completely didn't get around \nto it, but I did mention it to Nigel--what he would say to someone \nwho stated that his entire Sun cycle of stories is to Gnosticism as \nThe Chronicles of Naria are to Orthodox Christianity.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "you know,\nI think my ideas about Christ are severely unorthodox & probably \nheretical.\nno point in trying to get this across in a rational way\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3300.67.142.130.13.1228538003.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T04:33:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<50CD1F046692403FB2C540234BD53C56@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe balked\ngiving any place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He explicitly\ncorrected Jordan by stating he was a \"Christ-figure\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He is, according to Wolfe a manifestation of the Mystical Body of Christ.\nPerhaps it is more accurate to say that he participates in the Mystical\nBody of Christ.\n\nIn Catholicism, the communicant eats the flesh and drinks the blood of\nChrist. Christ (or bits of Him) thus becomes part of the communicant. The\nChristian does not and cannot become Christ: Christ is the Unique\nIncarnation. Christ becomes part of the Christian.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T04:35:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<3300.67.142.130.13.1228538003.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 5, 2008, at 8:33 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe balked\ngiving any place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He explicitly\ncorrected Jordan by stating he was a \"Christ-figure\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is, according to Wolfe a manifestation of the Mystical Body of \nChrist.\nPerhaps it is more accurate to say that he participates in the \nMystical\nBody of Christ.\n\nIn Catholicism, the communicant eats the flesh and drinks the blood of\nChrist. Christ (or bits of Him) thus becomes part of the \ncommunicant. The\nChristian does not and cannot become Christ: Christ is the Unique\nIncarnation. Christ becomes part of the Christian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "now we're talking." } ] }, { "message_id": "<493A1700.2040409@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T06:09:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<11112.67.142.130.13.1228531535.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nGod is omniscient and omnipotent.\n\nWhat occurs is the will of God.\n\nWhat is not the will of God does not occur.\n\nThat's it.\n\nIt's truly amazing to me how people complicate this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which god is this, then?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49032A3E696D497E9091F76B7585F21D@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T06:15:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<3300.67.142.130.13.1228538003.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe balked\ngiving any place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He explicitly\ncorrected Jordan by stating he was a \"Christ-figure\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is, according to Wolfe a manifestation of the Mystical Body of Christ.\nPerhaps it is more accurate to say that he participates in the Mystical\nBody of Christ.\n\nIn Catholicism, the communicant eats the flesh and drinks the blood of\nChrist. Christ (or bits of Him) thus becomes part of the communicant. The\nChristian does not and cannot become Christ: Christ is the Unique\nIncarnation. Christ becomes part of the Christian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you're saying he's a Christian, not a Christ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<319891.68655.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T06:35:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<50CD1F046692403FB2C540234BD53C56@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of Christian\nsymbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say \"sucker, you're faith is all a lie\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's an interview where Wolfe says that he was obviously concerned with \"working out\" some of his beliefs as a Catholic. But I don't see why \"working out\" can't mean giving a fictional account of, say, a monstrous version of what you believe in order to clarify it by contrast. The alzabo/eucharist is a case in point: there we're given an incredibly ambiguous version of communion which is an ongoing \"what if\" take on communion throughout the whole book: \"what if\" it were literally becoming another (non-divine) person? In that case, Severian achieves a union with Thecla he never could otherwise, but it's also something he struggles with throughout the books, suffering identity crises, revulsion at the corruption of traditional \"union\" (as well as simple disgust towards cannibalism), etc. In fact, to me, so much of the emotional impact of Severian's Thecla-ness comes as a result of its being a corruption of a more holy kind of communion. There's a\n beautiful tragedy inherent in it.\n\nSo why couldn't New Sun be a story of a corrupted second coming? Why couldn't it be a story about all the ugliness inherent when ultimately worldly, material powers try to act out a sacred myth? To me, that makes Severian the Sleeper seem particularly compelling: the Conciliator's true mediation is still sleeping, waiting for further and better expressions/incarnations in later times, other words, etc. After all...didn't \"Wolfe\" find this \"manuscript\" as if it was written in our \"far\" past. Maybe telling a story now about a Christ figure that didn't live up to Christ makes the real Christ all the more wonderful?\n\nMaybe. I'm not convinced that any of that's what IS going on, but I think it's certainly a reasonable option.\n\nJust because Wolfe professes his faith openly doesn't restrict his freedom to write imaginative fiction that, in the end, may not line up with doctrine. In fact, as someone who apparently seems like an very thoughtful and inquisitive believer, I wouldn't be surprised if much of his fiction is as much exploratory as it is orthodox.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<12948.72.171.0.143.1228548352.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T07:25:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49032A3E696D497E9091F76B7585F21D@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe balked\ngiving any place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He explicitly\ncorrected Jordan by stating he was a \"Christ-figure\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He is, according to Wolfe a manifestation of the Mystical Body of\nChrist. Perhaps it is more accurate to say that he participates in the\nMystical Body of Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In Catholicism, the communicant eats the flesh and drinks the blood of\nChrist. Christ (or bits of Him) thus becomes part of the communicant.\nThe Christian does not and cannot become Christ: Christ is the Unique\nIncarnation. Christ becomes part of the Christian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you're saying he's a Christian, not a Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is indeed what I am saying.\n\nAnd I feel that I am on safe ground here, as Gene Wolfe has said the same\nthing on more than one occasion.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10812052327y52a3e64fnd983b6c57fe6d445@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T07:27:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<319891.68655.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 1:35 AM, Craig Brewer \nwrote:> There's an interview where Wolfe says that he was obviously\nconcerned with \"working out\" some of his beliefs as a Catholic. But I\ndon't see why \"working out\" can't mean giving a fictional account of,\nsay, a monstrous version of what you believe in order to clarify it by\ncontrast. The alzabo/eucharist is a case in point: there we're given\nan incredibly ambiguous version of communion which is an ongoing \"what\nif\" take on communion throughout the whole book: \"what if\" it were\nliterally becoming another (non-divine) person? In that case, Severian\nachieves a union with Thecla he never could otherwise, but it's also\nsomething he struggles with throughout the books, suffering identity\ncrises, revulsion at the corruption of traditional \"union\" (as well as\nsimple disgust towards cannibalism), etc. In fact, to me, so much of\nthe emotional impact of Severian's Thecla-ness comes as a result of\nits being a corruption of a more holy kind of communion. There's a" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " beautiful tragedy inherent in it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. Though I'd point out that it's the results that are ambiguous,\nnot the process.\n\nI mean, the description of Thecla's corpse is horrific, as parts of\nher have apparently been roasted, she's probably been gutted, etc. I\nbelieve Severian states he hopes never to see her in this world again?\nIn any case, the eating Thecla scene is one of the most disturbing\nthings I've ever read, one of Wolfe's best moments as a writer.\n\nContrast with eating the autarch - it's done off-camera, and is\npresumably much more \"natural\" - Severian and the autarch don't try\nand pretty it up or prepare the \"meal\" - Sev just eats the autarch's\nbrain.\n\nWolfe is a Catholic, but I think he wants us to remember how\nunpleasant and how physical Christianity is. The crucifixion was a\nbloody, horrible event, as are martyrdoms, etc. Vodalus' \"communion\"\ntries to deny death - Sev takes Thecla's body, but her corpse is done\nup to look appealing. It's metaphorically (and perhaps literally?)\nbloodless.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10812052330u354af7c7y4e552aa65a98cb83@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T07:30:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<12948.72.171.0.143.1228548352.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 2:25 AM, wrote:\n\nThat is indeed what I am saying.\n\nAnd I feel that I am on safe ground here, as Gene Wolfe has said the same\nthing on more than one occasion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The more Wolfe I read, the more I wonder if \"Gene Wolfe\" isn't another\none of his unreliable narrators...\n\nThough I agree on this one. I suppose it's natural for a Christian to\ntake on some of the attributes of Christ. Wolfe loves stories of\nimitators coming to resemble the imitated. Of course, Sev isn't\nintentionally imitating Christ... It's unconscious on his part and\nconscious on Wolfe's?\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<892743FE-C827-4209-B72C-67EF05074789@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-06T18:02:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<319891.68655.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 5, 2008, at 10:35 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nDoes anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this \nfull of Christian\nsymbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say \"sucker, \nyou're faith is all a lie\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's an interview where Wolfe says that he was obviously \nconcerned with \"working out\" some of his beliefs as a Catholic. But \nI don't see why \"working out\" can't mean giving a fictional account \nof, say, a monstrous version of what you believe in order to clarify \nit by contrast. The alzabo/eucharist is a case in point: there we're \ngiven an incredibly ambiguous version of communion which is an \nongoing \"what if\" take on communion throughout the whole book: \"what \nif\" it were literally becoming another (non-divine) person? In that \ncase, Severian achieves a union with Thecla he never could \notherwise, but it's also something he struggles with throughout the \nbooks, suffering identity crises, revulsion at the corruption of \ntraditional \"union\" (as well as simple disgust towards cannibalism), \netc. In fact, to me, so much of the emotional impact of Severian's \nThecla-ness comes as a result of its being a corruption of a more \nholy kind of communion. There's a\nbeautiful tragedy inherent in it.\n\nSo why couldn't New Sun be a story of a corrupted second coming? Why \ncouldn't it be a story about all the ugliness inherent when \nultimately worldly, material powers try to act out a sacred myth? \nTo me, that makes Severian the Sleeper seem particularly compelling: \nthe Conciliator's true mediation is still sleeping, waiting for \nfurther and better expressions/incarnations in later times, other \nwords, etc. After all...didn't \"Wolfe\" find this \"manuscript\" as if \nit was written in our \"far\" past. Maybe telling a story now about a \nChrist figure that didn't live up to Christ makes the real Christ \nall the more wonderful?\n\nMaybe. I'm not convinced that any of that's what IS going on, but I \nthink it's certainly a reasonable option.\n\nJust because Wolfe professes his faith openly doesn't restrict his \nfreedom to write imaginative fiction that, in the end, may not line \nup with doctrine. In fact, as someone who apparently seems like an \nvery thoughtful and inquisitive believer, I wouldn't be surprised if \nmuch of his fiction is as much exploratory as it is orthodox." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, and it is a valid reading, and to not acknowledge that the \ntext suggests it is to miss the boat to some degree.\nbut on the flip side, to not acknowledge the potential that it could \nall be the workings of the Increate, and that the text supports that \nreading, is to also miss the boat.\n\nOne of the key things here is doubt.\nand neither BotNS, or say, the Bible, prove anything beyond a doubt.\nI think what Wolfe has done with the ambiguity here is key. What we \nmake of this mythical territory is personal to our souls and psyche.\n\nI think we can all probably agree that Wolfe has written a messianic \ntale using warped reflections of solar deity myths - such as Christ's \nand including others- to explore the nature of Death and Resurrection \nand mankinds's relationship to 'higher' powers.\n\nHe's given us a question, not an answer, which is why we're here 20 \nodd years after the fact still arguing over these basic facets of the \nwork.\n\nRealizing this will help me make my own fiction more interesting. \nInstead of trying to answer anything, I'll just ask questions and not \ntry to know the answers myself. Its much more fertile territory this \nway. It's focusing my attention on the fact that these are the sorts \nof stories that stick with me, the ones where you could argue the \nmeaning many ways. A recent film example of this would be Pan's \nLabyrinth. Whether you see the ending as positive or negative is up \nto you. the film provides enough fodder for either (and other) takes. \nYet, again, to deny that either view is valid is to not see the whole \npicture very well." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10812061011u75adc2b8u5b7f164e0421a94@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-06T18:11:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<892743FE-C827-4209-B72C-67EF05074789@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nA recent film example of this would be Pan's Labyrinth. Whether you see the ending as\npositive or negative is up to you. the film provides enough fodder for\neither (and other) takes. Yet, again, to deny that either view is valid is\nto not see the whole picture very well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to go too off-topic, but have you seen The Devil's Backbone? It's\none of del Toro's earlier films, and I think much more morally and\nthematically interesting than Pan's Labyrinth. The plots also tie\ntogether in a slight way...\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493C265F.10708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-07T19:39:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493A1700.2040409@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, well, it's all settled then. We can stop discussing it and writers can stop writing about it. Any further questions should be suppressed. Literature is dead. Burn your copies of Boethius. \n\nThanks, brunians!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:45:35 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: (urth) The Will Of God\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <11112.67.142.130.13.1228531535.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nGod is omniscient and omnipotent.\n\nWhat occurs is the will of God.\n\nWhat is not the will of God does not occur.\n\nThat's it.\n\nIt's truly amazing to me how people complicate this." } ] }, { "message_id": "<493C2803.8000308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-07T19:46:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493C265F.10708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, but so what? How does that help explain anything in TBotNS? No one has questioned that there is evil---I have said that Wolfe clearly believes it is real. The question is to what extent \"actors\" think they are doing evil and doing good vs to what extent they are actually doing either, and how that fits into this will of God---which, by the way, is inaccessible to us. \n\nIf it were accessible, it would be known. If it were known, it would be both acted upon and resisted. Do the Hierogrammates know the will of God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:00:16 -0800\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <05E02316-317D-4B1E-994F-BBBFD5FE3ABA at butcherbaker.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn Dec 5, 2008, at 6:45 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "God is omniscient and omnipotent.\n\nWhat occurs is the will of God.\n\nWhat is not the will of God does not occur.\n\nThat's it.\n\nIt's truly amazing to me how people complicate this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n\n\ni don't relate to the standard question, \"why does God allow evil?\" \neither.\n\nit just HAS to BE.\n\nlook at the yin yang symbol as another basic, perfect symbol of it.\n\nit's NOT the duality of it.\nit's the dance.\n\nsounds trite, but it's true.\n\nand WHO are WE to judge?\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812071202i48475888k496b8fde9f0a96a9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-07T20:02:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493C2803.8000308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is clear that the Hierogrammates do not know the will of\nGod. What is less clear to me is:\n\n1) Are the pieties of the Hierodules, Hierarchs, and Hierogrammates\nsincere? I take is that there is truth mixed with falsehood, but I\ncan't tell where one ends and the other begins.\n\n2) Do the Hierogrammates ultimately bring about the will of God? I\nwant to say that they do. I do not know how, in the text, this occurs,\nunless it really is through time-travelling protagonists from later\nseries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/7/08, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nSure, but so what? How does that help explain anything in TBotNS? No one has\nquestioned that there is evil---I have said that Wolfe clearly believes it\nis real. The question is to what extent \"actors\" think they are doing evil\nand doing good vs to what extent they are actually doing either, and how\nthat fits into this will of God---which, by the way, is inaccessible to us.\n\nIf it were accessible, it would be known. If it were known, it would be both\nacted upon and resisted. Do the Hierogrammates know the will of God?\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:00:16 -0800\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <05E02316-317D-4B1E-994F-BBBFD5FE3ABA at butcherbaker.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n\nOn Dec 5, 2008, at 6:45 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "God is omniscient and omnipotent.\n\nWhat occurs is the will of God.\n\nWhat is not the will of God does not occur.\n\nThat's it.\n\nIt's truly amazing to me how people complicate this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "i don't relate to the standard question, \"why does God allow evil?\"\neither.\n\nit just HAS to BE.\n\nlook at the yin yang symbol as another basic, perfect symbol of it.\n\nit's NOT the duality of it.\nit's the dance.\n\nsounds trite, but it's true.\n\nand WHO are WE to judge?\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081206-0, 12/06/2008\nTested on: 12/7/2008 2:46:12 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493C2FC4.7040302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-07T20:19:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10812061011u75adc2b8u5b7f164e0421a94@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Craig, all that is very well said and very much in line with the conclusions I have been groping toward. I agree that Wolfe is inquisitive and his writing is exploratory. He asks questions without necessarily answering them---and the basic speculative-fictional question is \"what if\"? I think that some posters here assume that \"Christian symbolism\" means something straightforward and orthodox; someone used the word \"explicit.\" But that's the wrong idea.\n\nIn a sense, Wolfe is being deliberately blasphemous, especially if you accept the evidence of Severian's serial incest along with his parody of Christ. He's a parody of a god, really, not too different from the gods of the Whorl or ancient Greece. Certain events are plainly analogous to communion, but I never knew what to do with that. (I also like a previous post about Severian being a manifestation of the Body of Christ---I don't know what that means, but it sounds right.)\n\nWe know that Wolfe inverts and perverts myth of all kinds, and I think we can assume he is quite knowledgeable about the various strains of Christianity that preceded the Catholic version. The more you know about that history, the less you take for granted. \n\n(I have always especially found Gnosticism fascinating, perhaps because it strikes me as a version of Christianity for very unsentimental and skeptical---even paranoid---people. I can relate, because regular Christianity has always made me feel like I was being fed a line, and an overly sweetened one at that. Wolfe is never sweet.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:35:06 -0800 (PST)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <319891.68655.qm at web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of Christian\nsymbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say \"sucker, you're faith is all a lie\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThere's an interview where Wolfe says that he was obviously concerned with \"working out\" some of his beliefs as a Catholic. But I don't see why \"working out\" can't mean giving a fictional account of, say, a monstrous version of what you believe in order to clarify it by contrast. The alzabo/eucharist is a case in point: there we're given an incredibly ambiguous version of communion which is an ongoing \"what if\" take on communion throughout the whole book: \"what if\" it were literally becoming another (non-divine) person? In that case, Severian achieves a union with Thecla he never could otherwise, but it's also something he struggles with throughout the books, suffering identity crises, revulsion at the corruption of traditional \"union\" (as well as simple disgust towards cannibalism), etc. In fact, to me, so much of the emotional impact of Severian's Thecla-ness comes as a result of its being a corruption of a more holy kind of communion. There's a\n beautiful tragedy inherent in it.\n\nSo why couldn't New Sun be a story of a corrupted second coming? Why couldn't it be a story about all the ugliness inherent when ultimately worldly, material powers try to act out a sacred myth? To me, that makes Severian the Sleeper seem particularly compelling: the Conciliator's true mediation is still sleeping, waiting for further and better expressions/incarnations in later times, other words, etc. After all...didn't \"Wolfe\" find this \"manuscript\" as if it was written in our \"far\" past. Maybe telling a story now about a Christ figure that didn't live up to Christ makes the real Christ all the more wonderful?\n\nMaybe. I'm not convinced that any of that's what IS going on, but I think it's certainly a reasonable option.\n\nJust because Wolfe professes his faith openly doesn't restrict his freedom to write imaginative fiction that, in the end, may not line up with doctrine. In fact, as someone who apparently seems like an very thoughtful and inquisitive believer, I wouldn't be surprised if much of his fiction is as much exploratory as it is orthodox." } ] }, { "message_id": "<493C34C5.4060504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-07T20:40:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812071202i48475888k496b8fde9f0a96a9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. \n\nI meant also to ask, Do Abaia and his lords perceive the will of the Increate? Presumably they do not, any more than the Hierogrammates do. But they seem to try to resist it rather than carry it out, at least until Severian comes along. Because their motivations are unclear beyond the desire to enslave humanity, it's hard to figure out whether they guess right about the Increate or not. If they ARE on the wrong side, is it because they guessed right or guessed wrong?\n\nAs an idle aside: It occurs to me that a Protestant view of the Hieros (all of them) would be to mistrust them completely. They stand between us and the Increate, pretending or seeming to represent him or what he wants. And they are all corrupt.(The extent to which they actually claim this status can be argued.) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:02:09 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0812071202i48475888k496b8fde9f0a96a9 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nI think it is clear that the Hierogrammates do not know the will of\nGod. What is less clear to me is:\n\n1) Are the pieties of the Hierodules, Hierarchs, and Hierogrammates\nsincere? I take is that there is truth mixed with falsehood, but I\ncan't tell where one ends and the other begins.\n\n2) Do the Hierogrammates ultimately bring about the will of God? I\nwant to say that they do. I do not know how, in the text, this occurs,\nunless it really is through time-travelling protagonists from later\nseries." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7205.67.142.130.26.1228685565.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-07T21:32:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493C34C5.4060504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Individual entities may or may not know the will of God. This does not\nstop them from doing the will of God. Nothing happens save by the will of\nGod.\n\nGod, will, occurred, did not occur: these are terms.\n\n'God' means the (presumed) omniscient, omnipotent ruler of the world. You\nmay or may not believe that such a thing exists. This is immaterial: that\nis the definition of the term.\n\nWill is a deliberate act.\n\nI am going to assume that everyone here knows what it means to say that\nsomething did occurred or that something may have occurred but did not in\nfact occur.\n\nAssuming that there is an omniscient, omnipotent ruler of the world,\neverything that occurs is in accordance with said ruler's will: either He\nwills it to occur, or he chooses not to prevent it.\n\nSo once something has occurred, you can look back and say \"that was the\nWill of God\". Before it occurs, you don't know.\n\n\n\n___\n\n\nQ Are there more live people or dead people?\nA There are more live people. Dead people are not.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly.\n\nI meant also to ask, Do Abaia and his lords perceive the will of the\nIncreate? Presumably they do not, any more than the Hierogrammates do. But\nthey seem to try to resist it rather than carry it out, at least until\nSeverian comes along. Because their motivations are unclear beyond the\ndesire to enslave humanity, it's hard to figure out whether they guess\nright about the Increate or not. If they ARE on the wrong side, is it\nbecause they guessed right or guessed wrong?\n\nAs an idle aside: It occurs to me that a Protestant view of the Hieros\n(all of them) would be to mistrust them completely. They stand between us\nand the Increate, pretending or seeming to represent him or what he wants.\nAnd they are all corrupt.(The extent to which they actually claim this\nstatus can be argued.)\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:02:09 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493C529A.8010101@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-07T22:47:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<7205.67.142.130.26.1228685565.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but you said, \"That's it.\" As in, it's that simple. Now you're saying it's not that simple: \"either He wills it to occur, or he chooses not to prevent it.\"\n\nThis seems like a huge distinction to me. Creating a big enough space to fit a four-volume novel or three, maybe.\n\nAnyway, we can't ever know which is which, but we can speculate. Especially since the actual topic here is not God's actual will, but a mere novel depicting such events. \n\n(For the same reason, I'd say \"occur\" vs \"not occur\" is pretty well useless in analyzing TbotNS. We have only \"Severian said it occurred.\" \n\nAnd even within that category, can something occur and then become something that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but certainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative timelines. I mean something more than \"I thought it occurred, but then I found out it didn't.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:32:45 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <7205.67.142.130.26.1228685565.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nIndividual entities may or may not know the will of God. This does not\nstop them from doing the will of God. Nothing happens save by the will of\nGod.\n\nGod, will, occurred, did not occur: these are terms.\n\n'God' means the (presumed) omniscient, omnipotent ruler of the world. You\nmay or may not believe that such a thing exists. This is immaterial: that\nis the definition of the term.\n\nWill is a deliberate act.\n\nI am going to assume that everyone here knows what it means to say that\nsomething did occurred or that something may have occurred but did not in\nfact occur.\n\nAssuming that there is an omniscient, omnipotent ruler of the world,\neverything that occurs is in accordance with said ruler's will: either He\nwills it to occur, or he chooses not to prevent it.\n\nSo once something has occurred, you can look back and say \"that was the\nWill of God\". Before it occurs, you don't know." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5526.67.142.130.22.1228691497.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-07T23:11:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493C529A.8010101@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And even within that category, can something occur and then become\nsomething that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but\ncertainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative\ntimelines. I mean something more than \"I thought it occurred, but then I\nfound out it didn't.\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<27877.69247.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-07T23:20:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<5526.67.142.130.22.1228691497.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The one thing that's bothered me about multiple timelines is that it only makes any difference if you can actually move between them. That's great for stories where that happens, but even if it is true, if \"I\" only exist and ever will exist in one timeline, then all the rest might as well not exist.\n\nIn other words, the idea of multiple timelines only really becomes speculatively interesting if time travel is a real possibility. Otherwise, the answer to \"what if there are multiple timelines?\" is, for all pratical purposes, \"It doesn't matter.\"\n\nOf course, within speculative fiction, all kinds of great stuff can come from the idea. But when it becomes an actual metaphysical speculation, I just don't really know what to do with it.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 5:11:37 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God\nAnd even within that category, can something occur and then become\nsomething that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but\ncertainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative\ntimelines. I mean something more than \"I thought it occurred, but then I\nfound out it didn't.\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1129.67.142.130.22.1228692898.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-07T23:34:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<27877.69247.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The one thing that's bothered me about multiple timelines is that it only\nmakes any difference if you can actually move between them. That's great\nfor stories where that happens, but even if it is true, if \"I\" only exist\nand ever will exist in one timeline, then all the rest might as well not\nexist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In other words, the idea of multiple timelines only really becomes\nspeculatively interesting if time travel is a real possibility. Otherwise,\nthe answer to \"what if there are multiple timelines?\" is, for all pratical\npurposes, \"It doesn't matter.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, within speculative fiction, all kinds of great stuff can come\nfrom the idea. But when it becomes an actual metaphysical speculation, I\njust don't really know what to do with it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well! It's hard to say what's real and what's not real in these matters,\nbut there are known methods for both moving from one timeline to another\nand for perceiving what is happening in other ones, which involve the use\nof various drugs and other magickal techniques.\n\nAnyway, I am personally convinced of the reality of multiple timelines due\nto various experiences that I have had. If you have not had these or\nsimilar experiences, it is no surprise to me that you are skeptical: that\nis a reasonable attitude to have.\n\nIt's like telepathy or bilocation or any of that stuff: if you experience\nit, it is real to you.\n\nI don't know if time *travel* is possible. I believe that seeing other\ntimes is possible, with the same caveats as above.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<493CD91F.1010802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T08:21:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493C2803.8000308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nSure, but so what? How does that help explain anything in TBotNS? No one has questioned that there is evil---I have said that Wolfe clearly believes it is real. The question is to what extent \"actors\" think they are doing evil and doing good vs to what extent they are actually doing either, and how that fits into this will of God---which, by the way, is inaccessible to us. \n\nIf it were accessible, it would be known. If it were known, it would be both acted upon and resisted. Do the Hierogrammates know the will of God?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They might have superior knowledge of God's will if their superior \npreception in time and space includes divine interventions like the \nliteral words and deeds of our cycle's Christ, Moses receiving the \nCommandments, any of Abraham's numerous audiences with God, and those \nyet to come in our timeline, like Judgment Day." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493CDA9E.2050707@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T08:28:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<5526.67.142.130.22.1228691497.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAnd even within that category, can something occur and then become\nsomething that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but\ncertainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative\ntimelines. I mean something more than \"I thought it occurred, but then I\nfound out it didn't.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5325.72.171.0.142.1228725125.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T08:32:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493CDA9E.2050707@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And even within that category, can something occur and then become\nsomething that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but\ncertainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative\ntimelines. I mean something more than \"I thought it occurred, but then\nI found out it didn't.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The latter, of course.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<493CE0CB.5060204@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T08:54:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<5325.72.171.0.142.1228725125.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And even within that category, can something occur and then become\nsomething that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but\ncertainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative\ntimelines. I mean something more than \"I thought it occurred, but then\nI found out it didn't.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The latter, of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is the tree of alternatives fully populated?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8874.67.142.130.17.1228728606.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T09:30:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493CE0CB.5060204@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The latter, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is the tree of alternatives fully populated?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not sure that I understand you.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-12-08T09:39:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493CE0CB.5060204@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 8 Dec 2008, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The latter, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is the tree of alternatives fully populated?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but proportionately to one's net good and evil ;)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D101C.9040404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T12:16:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<8874.67.142.130.17.1228728606.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Brunians wrote:\n/ I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\n/ Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One?\n/\n/ The latter, of course.\n/\n/ Is the tree of alternatives fully populated?\n/\nI am not sure that I understand you.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems a bit contradictory to the concept of \"the will of God\" that \nGod would allow timelines in which every possible thing happens. It \nwould follow from what you said before that every possible thing is the \nwill of God.\n\nHave you read Niven's \"All the Myriad Ways\"? It takes the multiple \nworlds concept to just such a depressing moral conclusion. People who \nare contemplating murder, rape, or suicide ask themselves -- \"Why not? \nIt's going to happen somewhere.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4300.72.171.0.143.1228739436.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T12:30:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493D101C.9040404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's how I look at the World, and how I think it is arranged.\n\nYou are free to come up with ideas that suit you better.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunians wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "/ I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines\nexist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/\n/ Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One?\n/\n/ The latter, of course.\n/\n/ Is the tree of alternatives fully populated?\n/\nI am not sure that I understand you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems a bit contradictory to the concept of \"the will of God\" that\nGod would allow timelines in which every possible thing happens. It\nwould follow from what you said before that every possible thing is the\nwill of God.\n\nHave you read Niven's \"All the Myriad Ways\"? It takes the multiple\nworlds concept to just such a depressing moral conclusion. People who\nare contemplating murder, rape, or suicide ask themselves -- \"Why not?\nIt's going to happen somewhere.\"\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D3547.4060409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-08T14:55:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<4300.72.171.0.143.1228739436.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's likely to have been intended. It fits with so much else.\n\nBut I'm thinking primarily of Ash's \"future,\" which is only a possible future from a time before the New Sun, not after. Therefore, it's possible that one could consider it extinct after the New Sun comes. And I think the Hierodules say (in \"Urth\") that they never met Ash but they did meet the Green Man. So that may suggest that Ash's future is gone.\n\nHowever, the whole idea of the \"corridors of time\" implies intersections, not just back and forth. Following this, it's possible that the Hierodules, if they are able to move forward in time at all (I never could figure this out), could go back until Ash becomes possible, then go forward to meet him. But (a) they apparently can't and (b) in that scene, they haven't yet come to the point where Ash is possible, so they wouldn't have. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 18:11:37 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <5526.67.142.130.22.1228691497.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And even within that category, can something occur and then become\nsomething that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but\ncertainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative\ntimelines. I mean something more than \"I thought it occurred, but then I\nfound out it didn't.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nI solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist.\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D37E7.8060607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-08T15:06:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493D3547.4060409@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, superior but not perfect. Yes, you would think that their \"higher\" perspective is worth something. However, it might equally well be worth nothing.\n\nI'm skeptical that knowledge of those particular events is worth anything either. Perhaps this is because I regard them as fictional at best. And the Christian myth has its own share of unreliable narrators.\n\nBut the issue here is how, then, to identify and analyze a true \"divine intervention\"---which brings us back to our starting point. \n\nOnly true miracles could possibly be proof, and then only to eyewitnesses themselves. And no mere reader of Severian can ever be a direct eyewitness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 02:21:51 -0600\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <493CD91F.1010802 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure, but so what? How does that help explain anything in TBotNS? No one has questioned that there is evil---I have said that Wolfe clearly believes it is real. The question is to what extent \"actors\" think they are doing evil and doing good vs to what extent they are actually doing either, and how that fits into this will of God---which, by the way, is inaccessible to us. \n\nIf it were accessible, it would be known. If it were known, it would be both acted upon and resisted. Do the Hierogrammates know the will of God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThey might have superior knowledge of God's will if their superior \npreception in time and space includes divine interventions like the \nliteral words and deeds of our cycle's Christ, Moses receiving the \nCommandments, any of Abraham's numerous audiences with God, and those \nyet to come in our timeline, like Judgment Day.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D3CB8.8020508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-08T15:26:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493D37E7.8060607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, if every possible event is God's will, then the \nconcept of God's will becomes meaningless. It will only matter, after \naccepting a fully populated tree, whether something is possible, i.e., \nif there is a branch for it. ------------------------------ Message: 11 \nDate: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 05:16:28 -0700 From: Dave Tallman \n Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God To: \nurth at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <493D101C.9040404 at gmail.com> " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Brunians wrote:\n/ I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "/ Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "/ The latter, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "/ Is the tree of alternatives fully populated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \n/\nI am not sure that I understand you.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems a bit contradictory to the concept of \"the will of God\" that \nGod would allow timelines in which every possible thing happens. It \nwould follow from what you said before that every possible thing is the \nwill of God.\n\nHave you read Niven's \"All the Myriad Ways\"? It takes the multiple \nworlds concept to just such a depressing moral conclusion. People who \nare contemplating murder, rape, or suicide ask themselves -- \"Why not? \nIt's going to happen somewhere.\"\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10318.67.142.130.12.1228753434.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T16:23:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493D37E7.8060607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only true miracles could possibly be proof, and then only to eyewitnesses\nthemselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a key to this whole thing.\n\nI believe what I believe because of some unusual experiences that I have\nhad. If you, not having had these experiences, believed the same way I do,\nI would have to say that I thought you were being sort of silly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " And no mere reader of Severian can ever be a direct\neyewitness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A-yup.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6163.67.142.130.12.1228753583.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T16:26:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493D3CB8.8020508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, if every possible event is God's will, then the\nconcept of God's will becomes meaningless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which event goes in which world is certainly God's will.\n\nI find the whole structure very esthetically pleasing, actually.\n\nOf course, I really like the Gita....\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D4B47.5060609@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T16:28:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493CE0CB.5060204@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And even within that category, can something occur and then become\nsomething that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but\ncertainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative\ntimelines. I mean something more than \"I thought it occurred, but then\nI found out it didn't.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The latter, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is the tree of alternatives fully populated?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is,\n\nIs there a timeline for every possible alternative outcome of every \nquantum uncertainty? Or is there some more selective criteria?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11676.67.142.130.12.1228754335.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T16:38:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493D4B47.5060609@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is the tree of alternatives fully populated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there a timeline for every possible alternative outcome of every\nquantum uncertainty? Or is there some more selective criteria?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know: I have no evidence.\n\nEither way works for me.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D4EE3.7090307@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T16:44:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493D37E7.8060607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nSo, superior but not perfect. Yes, you would think that their \"higher\" perspective is worth something. However, it might equally well be worth nothing.\n\nI'm skeptical that knowledge of those particular events is worth anything either. Perhaps this is because I regard them as fictional at best. And the Christian myth has its own share of unreliable narrators.\n\nBut the issue here is how, then, to identify and analyze a true \"divine intervention\"---which brings us back to our starting point. \n\nOnly true miracles could possibly be proof, and then only to eyewitnesses themselves. And no mere reader of Severian can ever be a direct eyewitness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "THe Hierogrammates seem to have an improved from of witness in that that\nabsorbed fragments share with the main body and the main body with new \nfragments. They also demonstarte an ability to direct portals through \ntime and space through which they can speak and observe, and depost \npeople. If an archipelago were to ever identify a miracle in their \ncompanion galaxy in Briah, they could all be personal witnesses of it in \nshort order." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D4F9A.2000307@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T16:47:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<10318.67.142.130.12.1228753434.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOnly true miracles could possibly be proof, and then only to eyewitnesses\nthemselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a key to this whole thing.\n\nI believe what I believe because of some unusual experiences that I have\nhad. If you, not having had these experiences, believed the same way I do,\nI would have to say that I thought you were being sort of silly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " And no mere reader of Severian can ever be a direct\neyewitness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But an *eater* of Severian could, and the Hierogrammates share memories \nmuch like users of the alzabo do, so if one saw the Increate, they all \nmay have." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D5038.1070504@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T16:50:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<11676.67.142.130.12.1228754335.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIs the tree of alternatives fully populated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That is," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there a timeline for every possible alternative outcome of every\nquantum uncertainty? Or is there some more selective criteria?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know: I have no evidence.\n\nEither way works for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good enough; can you describe anything about the mechanism for viewing \nor physically shunting to other lines?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11404.67.142.130.12.1228756009.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T17:06:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493D5038.1070504@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is there a timeline for every possible alternative outcome of every\nquantum uncertainty? Or is there some more selective criteria?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know: I have no evidence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Either way works for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good enough; can you describe anything about the mechanism for viewing\nor physically shunting to other lines?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Viewing involves the use of myrrh and physically shunting involves the use\nof datura.\n\nThe use of myrrh is relatively safe: you can eat the powdered myrrh,\nthough when I was really getting into it I was using what's called a\nspiritual sol of myrrh (this is not metaphysical: the 'spiritual' part\nrefers to the fact that you are using 200 proof alcohol for solvent and\n'sol' is the root of 'solvent'.\n\nI would normally eat a dose of sol and then take a sweat bath wherein I\nburnt quite a bit of myrrh and white sage as well as smoking bits of\ncannabis and tobacco.\n\nMyrrh is a narcotic and soporific, and what happens is after you get out\nof the sweat bath you feel pretty woozy and lie down for a while, at which\npoint you go into this sort of dreaming state generically similar to the\nkind of stuff you get with opiates. When you wake up you will find that\nyou have memories from one or more of the other worlds.\n\nDatura is quite dangerous.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T17:24:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<11404.67.142.130.12.1228756009.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 8, 2008, at 11:06 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nThe use of myrrh is relatively safe: you can eat the powdered myrrh,\nthough when I was really getting into it I was using what's called a\nspiritual sol of myrrh (this is not metaphysical: the 'spiritual' part\nrefers to the fact that you are using 200 proof alcohol for solvent \nand\n'sol' is the root of 'solvent'.\n\nI would normally eat a dose of sol and then take a sweat bath \nwherein I\nburnt quite a bit of myrrh and white sage as well as smoking bits of\ncannabis and tobacco." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One is reminded of:\n\nhttp://www.xkcd.com/353/\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5677.72.171.0.143.1228760055.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T18:14:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The use of myrrh is relatively safe: you can eat the powdered myrrh,\nthough when I was really getting into it I was using what's called a\nspiritual sol of myrrh (this is not metaphysical: the 'spiritual' part\nrefers to the fact that you are using 200 proof alcohol for solvent\nand 'sol' is the root of 'solvent'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would normally eat a dose of sol and then take a sweat bath\nwherein I burnt quite a bit of myrrh and white sage as well as smoking\nbits of cannabis and tobacco." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One is reminded of:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.xkcd.com/353/" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you say that?\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E037410-87F5-468F-9805-49F2A0A63FC5@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T18:29:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<5677.72.171.0.143.1228760055.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 8, 2008, at 12:14 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The use of myrrh is relatively safe: you can eat the powdered myrrh,\nthough when I was really getting into it I was using what's called a\nspiritual sol of myrrh (this is not metaphysical: the 'spiritual' \npart\nrefers to the fact that you are using 200 proof alcohol for solvent\nand 'sol' is the root of 'solvent'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I would normally eat a dose of sol and then take a sweat bath\nwherein I burnt quite a bit of myrrh and white sage as well as \nsmoking\nbits of cannabis and tobacco." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One is reminded of:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://www.xkcd.com/353/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you say that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could be the python, or it could be the medicine cabinet.\n\nMyrrh? Grain alcohol? Sativa? Cannabis? Other worlds?\n\nimport antigravity;\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00B72052-3D1A-49CA-82CD-6659DD92FBD2@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T18:31:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<4E037410-87F5-468F-9805-49F2A0A63FC5@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 8, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nMyrrh? Grain alcohol? Sativa? Cannabis? Other worlds?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "s/tiv/lvi/;\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D70F1.2090002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-08T19:09:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<00B72052-3D1A-49CA-82CD-6659DD92FBD2@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, very nicely reasoned, Jeff. Perhaps so.\n\nI somehow imagine angels sitting in office buildings on Yesod, layer upon layer of middle management and banks of miracle hotline workers. ;)\n\nAssociates are standing by for your call!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:44:19 -0600\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <493D4EE3.7090307 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, superior but not perfect. Yes, you would think that their \"higher\" perspective is worth something. However, it might equally well be worth nothing.\n\nI'm skeptical that knowledge of those particular events is worth anything either. Perhaps this is because I regard them as fictional at best. And the Christian myth has its own share of unreliable narrators.\n\nBut the issue here is how, then, to identify and analyze a true \"divine intervention\"---which brings us back to our starting point. \n\nOnly true miracles could possibly be proof, and then only to eyewitnesses themselves. And no mere reader of Severian can ever be a direct eyewitness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nTHe Hierogrammates seem to have an improved from of witness in that that\nabsorbed fragments share with the main body and the main body with new \nfragments. They also demonstarte an ability to direct portals through \ntime and space through which they can speak and observe, and depost \npeople. If an archipelago were to ever identify a miracle in their \ncompanion galaxy in Briah, they could all be personal witnesses of it in \nshort order.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13412.67.142.130.38.1228764233.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T19:23:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<4E037410-87F5-468F-9805-49F2A0A63FC5@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I would normally eat a dose of sol and then take a sweat bath\nwherein I burnt quite a bit of myrrh and white sage as well as\nsmoking bits of cannabis and tobacco." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "One is reminded of:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "http://www.xkcd.com/353/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you say that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It could be the python, or it could be the medicine cabinet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean that it is a hallucination? Of course it is a hallucination. The\nquestion is, is there any underlying reality to the hallucination? I think\nprobably yes. But it is impossible to demonstrate either way. It is\nsuggestive that several people have had the same kind of hallucinations by\nfollowing these instructions. Also, that I am far from the first person\nwho has had the perception that the world is this way.\n\nAlso, I should add, that these drugs (and the use of drugs in magick\ngenerally) are training aids. Many of the perceptions and visions in\ndreams (in my opinion) come from the other worlds, and learning to\nnavigate and retain memory of dreams is one of the most important\nexercises. And waking reveries can also be induced.\n\nOf course, and in any case, you are entitled to your opinions.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D7472.3080205@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T19:24:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493D70F1.2090002@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nAh, very nicely reasoned, Jeff. Perhaps so.\n\nI somehow imagine angels sitting in office buildings on Yesod, layer upon layer of middle management and banks of miracle hotline workers. ;)\n\nAssociates are standing by for your call!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hierogrammate means \"holy scribe\" , so there must be *some* paperwork \nand bureaucracy involved." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1212.67.142.130.38.1228764377.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T19:26:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<00B72052-3D1A-49CA-82CD-6659DD92FBD2@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 8, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Myrrh? Grain alcohol? Sativa? Cannabis? Other worlds?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "s/tiv/lvi/;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "White sage is a stimulant, not a psychedelic. Not Salvia divinorum.\n\nAlso, the spirits of wine are used as a solvent to prepare the sol of\nmyrrh. None is consumed.\n\nMyrrh is certainly a powerful psychedelic.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D7AC6.5030705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-08T19:51:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<1212.67.142.130.38.1228764377.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, since powerful thinking machines apparently lie just beneath the surface of the whole Yesod/Hieros/Hierogrammates complex---in a way I do not comprehend---the paperwork would all be digital. The storage capacity would be unthinkable, of course. \n\nBut are the machines the scribes/slaves, or are those the people who maintain the servers? I admit that I am completely baffled by the natures of both the Hierogrammates and the Hierodules. Too many masks. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:24:34 -0600\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <493D7472.3080205 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, very nicely reasoned, Jeff. Perhaps so.\n\nI somehow imagine angels sitting in office buildings on Yesod, layer upon layer of middle management and banks of miracle hotline workers. ;) \n\nAssociates are standing by for your call!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n\nHierogrammate means \"holy scribe\" , so there must be *some* paperwork \nand bureaucracy involved.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812081159u164a5f95x891a12b5e83be551@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T19:59:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493D7AC6.5030705@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So the big Gnab may just be a horrific extension of the Blue Screen of\nDeath?\n\nMy guess is that the entire Universe is run on Vista. It would explain a\nlot in the Urth cycle" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493D8B92.5000906@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-08T21:03:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<11404.67.142.130.12.1228756009.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nkind of stuff you get with opiates. When you wake up you will find that\nyou have memories from one or more of the other worlds.\n\nDatura is quite dangerous." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How is physically traveling different from awakwning with otherworldly \nmemories?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2621.67.142.130.35.1228772782.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T21:46:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493D8B92.5000906@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "kind of stuff you get with opiates. When you wake up you will find that\nyou have memories from one or more of the other worlds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Datura is quite dangerous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How is physically traveling different from awakwning with otherworldly\nmemories?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The memories are not particularly otherworldly.\n\nWhen you move from world to world the worlds are different. Like, for\ninstance, maybe you lived in a house in the world you started from but you\ndo not live in a house in the world you arrive in. You can remember it\nbeing different, sort of, but you also have a new set of memories\napprorpriate to the place you find yourself.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2008-12-08T22:11:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<4939B55F.8020801@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:12 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the undines.\nDoes anyone \"know\" or care to guess?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aren't they a band?\n\nEnamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493DA527.7000808@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-08T22:52:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<2621.67.142.130.35.1228772782.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've had roughly similar experiences, without myrrh---startlingly vivid \n\"waking dreams\" that include mundane but totally \"wrong\" details. These \nare sometimes hard to shake off. Most recently, I was sure I had a \nparakeet. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 8 Dec \n2008 16:46:22 -0500 (EST) From: brunians at brunians.org Subject: Re: \n(urth) The Will Of God To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <2621.67.142.130.35.1228772782.squirrel at brunians.org> \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "kind of stuff you get with opiates. When you wake up you will find that\nyou have memories from one or more of the other worlds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Datura is quite dangerous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \nHow is physically traveling different from awakwning with otherworldly\nmemories?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The memories are not particularly otherworldly.\n\nWhen you move from world to world the worlds are different. Like, for\ninstance, maybe you lived in a house in the world you started from but you\ndo not live in a house in the world you arrive in. You can remember it\nbeing different, sort of, but you also have a new set of memories\napprorpriate to the place you find yourself.\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9039.67.142.130.49.1228777259.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-08T23:00:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Will Of God", "in_reply_to": "<493DA527.7000808@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. I think I mentioned that drugs in practices like this are by way of\nbeing training aids. Did I mention learning to dream, to navigate in and\nretain your dreams? In dreams and reveries, also, you are in the actions,\nnot remembering them, you can act in the other worlds.\n\nThe problem with the myrrh and the waking up with two sets of memories is\nthat you can become confused as to which set is the real one. It can get\ninteresting.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've had roughly similar experiences, without myrrh---startlingly vivid\n\"waking dreams\" that include mundane but totally \"wrong\" details. These\nare sometimes hard to shake off. Most recently, I was sure I had a\nparakeet. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 8 Dec\n2008 16:46:22 -0500 (EST) From: brunians at brunians.org Subject: Re:\n(urth) The Will Of God To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <2621.67.142.130.35.1228772782.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "kind of stuff you get with opiates. When you wake up you will find\nthat\nyou have memories from one or more of the other worlds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Datura is quite dangerous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How is physically traveling different from awakwning with otherworldly\nmemories?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The memories are not particularly otherworldly.\n\nWhen you move from world to world the worlds are different. Like, for\ninstance, maybe you lived in a house in the world you started from but you\ndo not live in a house in the world you arrive in. You can remember it\nbeing different, sort of, but you also have a new set of memories\napprorpriate to the place you find yourself.\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081208-0, 12/08/2008\nTested on: 12/8/2008 5:52:24 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493DFE6B.6040800@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-09T05:13:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thomas Bitterman wrote:\nOn Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:12 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n I don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the\n undines. Does anyone \"know\" or care to guess?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Abaia could be an enormous, ageless leviathan grown from some earlier \nepoch's premiere thaumaturgist, like Baldanders begins to be during \nSeverian's reign, or it could be something else but still seems to \ninclude gigantified beings descended of human stock among its \"undine\" \nhenchmen.\n\nMy pet theory is that Ouen's side of the family has undines in the \ndriftwoodpile; this explains several mysteries of the book: Dorcas' \nawakening when buried underwater, where Severian's sister is (she's \nJolenta), Severian's unfailing ability to survive water when his other \npowers are hit and miss, the ambiguous agression of the undines against \nthe New Sun (they want to turn Severian instead of \"wasting\" an \nirreplaceable double agent, they \"save\" him from Gyoll instead of \nletting him stay tangled long enough to make it obvious he's an \nundine-bred), and so forth." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<95063.26628.qm@web180004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-12-09T13:26:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493DFE6B.6040800@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't Abaia an alien monster from the stars? \n\n This is Jonas' story of the black beans:\n\n\"...others went out in the ships that ply between the stars, returning with treasure and knowledge. In time there returned a woman who had gained nothing among them but a handful of black beans...\n\n\"...-she displayed the beans to the lords of men, and told them that unless she were obeyed she would cast them into the sea and so put an end to the world. They had her seized and torn to bits, for they were a hundred times more complete in their domination than our Autarch.\" (Shadow, XXXV)\n\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 12/9/08, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 12:13 AM\nThomas Bitterman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:12 PM, David Stockhoff\n> wrote:\n\n I don't recall reading anything about the\norigin of Abaia and the\n undines. Does anyone \"know\" or care to\nguess?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abaia could be an enormous, ageless leviathan grown from\nsome earlier \nepoch's premiere thaumaturgist, like Baldanders begins\nto be during \nSeverian's reign, or it could be something else but\nstill seems to \ninclude gigantified beings descended of human stock among\nits \"undine\" \nhenchmen.\n\nMy pet theory is that Ouen's side of the family has\nundines in the \ndriftwoodpile; this explains several mysteries of the book:\nDorcas' \nawakening when buried underwater, where Severian's\nsister is (she's \nJolenta), Severian's unfailing ability to survive water\nwhen his other \npowers are hit and miss, the ambiguous agression of the\nundines against \nthe New Sun (they want to turn Severian instead of\n\"wasting\" an \nirreplaceable double agent, they \"save\" him from\nGyoll instead of \nletting him stay tangled long enough to make it obvious\nhe's an \nundine-bred), and so forth.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493EC27B.7010800@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-09T19:09:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<95063.26628.qm@web180004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Smith wrote:\nIsn't Abaia an alien monster from the stars? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. Abaia is said to be one of the Great Beasts, but so was \nAleister Crowley in his time. The library book _Lives of the Seventeen \nMegathereians_ implies that many Great Beasts (Mega * Thereians) are \nhuman enough to have biographies.\n\nOf course, a man can take a beast's name for notoriety, as Typhon did. \nThe Typhon that we meet in the Book is certainly a man, and certainly \nhas designs on the dominating the world, but is not the irresistable \nforce of nature the ancient Greek myths' Typhon was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is Jonas' story of the black beans:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't make more of that than maybe they were quantum black holes that \nended up being chucked in the sun instead. Jonah is also our source for \nthe Great Beasts being mountain-sized.\n\nThe boatman, however, tells a story of huge voices bespeaking through \nthe river, with the female ones belonging to the huge undines, while \ntheir male order-giver is never seen. The male could be Abaia, or could \nbe some lieutenant, perhaps." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-09T19:23:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493EC27B.7010800@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is Jonas' story of the black beans:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't make more of that than maybe they were quantum black holes that \nended up being chucked in the sun instead. Jonah is also our source for \nthe Great Beasts being mountain-sized." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe we see Abia and Erebus in Severian's Undine Dream. Shadow 15\n\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nFar off loomed great shapes - things hundreds of times larger than a man. Some \nseemed ships, and some clouds; one was a living head without a body; one had a \nhundred heads. A blue haze obscured them, and I saw below me a country of sand, \ncarved by the currents. A palace stood there that was greater than our Citadel, \nbut it was ruinous,\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nHundreds of times larger than a man.\nLiving head without a body,\none had a hundred heads.\n\nThis is a hunch of course.\n\nWhile these creatures seem to represent primordial and pagan entities, I think they also stand as a sort of theological critique.\nLiving Head without a body: a distant God with no incarnated aspect. \nOne had a hundred heads: Polytheism.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812091130m1e89c164je4771eb5aa9e49f4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-09T19:30:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think all of this is further complicated when we get into Short Sun and\nthe Mother, right? I mean, this argues a bit for the extraterrestrial\ninvaders theory, in my book." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812091131q1636d12ci5ade020edaa72b2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-09T19:31:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz--I think your instinct is correct. It's also worth noting that\nthe mythological Typhon had a hundred heads, and that the great,\nruined palace might be R'lyeh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/9/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is Jonas' story of the black beans:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can't make more of that than maybe they were quantum black holes that\nended up being chucked in the sun instead. Jonah is also our source for\nthe Great Beasts being mountain-sized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe we see Abia and Erebus in Severian's Undine Dream. Shadow 15\n\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nFar off loomed great shapes - things hundreds of times larger than a man. Some\nseemed ships, and some clouds; one was a living head without a body; one had a\nhundred heads. A blue haze obscured them, and I saw below me a country of sand,\ncarved by the currents. A palace stood there that was greater than our Citadel,\nbut it was ruinous,\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nHundreds of times larger than a man.\nLiving head without a body,\none had a hundred heads.\n\nThis is a hunch of course.\n\nWhile these creatures seem to represent primordial and pagan entities, I think they also stand as a sort of theological critique.\nLiving Head without a body: a distant God with no incarnated aspect.\nOne had a hundred heads: Polytheism.\n\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812091145l529e9d4avfdf0f1716acdc98f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-09T19:45:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812091131q1636d12ci5ade020edaa72b2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which is a nice tie in to Evil Guest, no?\n\nI know it's been discussed, but it did seem like an interesting way to maybe\ntalk about the origin of the Megatherians. Except not really.\n\nThey do seem pretty Lovecraftian, while also having the symbolic\ncharacteristics Witz talks about." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-09T19:59:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812091145l529e9d4avfdf0f1716acdc98f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:31 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\n\nWitz--I think your instinct is correct. It's also worth noting that\nthe mythological Typhon had a hundred heads, and that the great,\nruined palace might be R'lyeh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I don't know anything about Typhon, myth or long sun. that's neat. R'lyeh too. gonna read some Lovecraft soon. just bought that Necronomicon compiliation.\n\nI'd thought of Leviathan, of course, along the lines of it's presence in The Illuminatus Trilogy.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/9/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This is Jonas' story of the black beans:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I can't make more of that than maybe they were quantum black holes that\nended up being chucked in the sun instead. Jonah is also our source for\nthe Great Beasts being mountain-sized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe we see Abia and Erebus in Severian's Undine Dream. Shadow 15\n\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nFar off loomed great shapes - things hundreds of times larger than a man. Some\nseemed ships, and some clouds; one was a living head without a body; one had a\nhundred heads. A blue haze obscured them, and I saw below me a country of sand,\ncarved by the currents. A palace stood there that was greater than our Citadel,\nbut it was ruinous,\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nHundreds of times larger than a man.\nLiving head without a body,\none had a hundred heads.\n\nThis is a hunch of course.\n\nWhile these creatures seem to represent primordial and pagan entities, I think they also stand as a sort of theological critique.\nLiving Head without a body: a distant God with no incarnated aspect.\nOne had a hundred heads: Polytheism.\n\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493ED04C.7060202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-09T20:08:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And to pick up another thread, I think it's helpful to view TBotNS's cosmology from a faerie or Greek perspective. Severian need not be related to the undines, but that's one way of explaining why he does indeed seem to have a water-sprite connection.\n\nMy assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and Idas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an ancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is Poseidon and the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:13:15 -0600\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <493DFE6B.6040800 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nThomas Bitterman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:12 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n I don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the\n undines. Does anyone \"know\" or care to guess?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nAbaia could be an enormous, ageless leviathan grown from some earlier \nepoch's premiere thaumaturgist, like Baldanders begins to be during \nSeverian's reign, or it could be something else but still seems to \ninclude gigantified beings descended of human stock among its \"undine\" \nhenchmen.\n\nMy pet theory is that Ouen's side of the family has undines in the \ndriftwoodpile; this explains several mysteries of the book: Dorcas' \nawakening when buried underwater, where Severian's sister is (she's \nJolenta), Severian's unfailing ability to survive water when his other \npowers are hit and miss, the ambiguous agression of the undines against \nthe New Sun (they want to turn Severian instead of \"wasting\" an \nirreplaceable double agent, they \"save\" him from Gyoll instead of \nletting him stay tangled long enough to make it obvious he's an \nundine-bred), and so forth.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493ED509.2010000@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-09T20:28:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493ED04C.7060202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jack, Jeff, Witz---\n\nI recall a hint somewhere that Abaia and Erebus were not from Urth, but I am not sure Jonas is the source of that. Where does he suggest that? I recall thinking that made them sound very Cthulhulean. They would have had to arrive when very small, a long time ago. And they could have, back during the era when there was commerce between star systems.\n\nIs the book Lives of the Seventeen Megathereians in the Autarch's library? The image of huge giants bringing about an apocalypse---or struggling against one---is very Revelations. I am also reminded of The Night Land and its Watchers.\n\nBut yes, since the Beast has been interpreted as the Church (see interpretations of Nostradamus, however silly), it is possible to see the various beasts as symbolic. However, in terms of the story, if interpreted literally, that would mean that several species got together on Urth to conquer it. Seems odd. \n\nI have preferred to see that scene as a vision, and that none of the monsters are actually Abaia or Erebus. But I have no argument for this. I'll have to look it up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 05:26:03 -0800 (PST)\nFrom: John Smith \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <95063.26628.qm at web180004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\nIsn't Abaia an alien monster from the stars? \n\n This is Jonas' story of the black beans:\n\n\"...others went out in the ships that ply between the stars, returning with treasure and knowledge. In time there returned a woman who had gained nothing among them but a handful of black beans...\n\n\"...-she displayed the beans to the lords of men, and told them that unless she were obeyed she would cast them into the sea and so put an end to the world. They had her seized and torn to bits, for they were a hundred times more complete in their domination than our Autarch.\" (Shadow, XXXV)\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 13:09:47 -0600\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: jsmith2627 at att.net, The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <493EC27B.7010800 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nJohn Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isn't Abaia an alien monster from the stars? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nPossibly. Abaia is said to be one of the Great Beasts, but so was \nAleister Crowley in his time. The library book _Lives of the Seventeen \nMegathereians_ implies that many Great Beasts (Mega * Thereians) are \nhuman enough to have biographies.\n\nOf course, a man can take a beast's name for notoriety, as Typhon did. \nThe Typhon that we meet in the Book is certainly a man, and certainly \nhas designs on the dominating the world, but is not the irresistable \nforce of nature the ancient Greek myths' Typhon was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is Jonas' story of the black beans:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nI can't make more of that than maybe they were quantum black holes that \nended up being chucked in the sun instead. Jonah is also our source for \nthe Great Beasts being mountain-sized.\n\nThe boatman, however, tells a story of huge voices bespeaking through \nthe river, with the female ones belonging to the huge undines, while \ntheir male order-giver is never seen. The male could be Abaia, or could \nbe some lieutenant, perhaps.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 \n19:23:20 +0000 From: \"Son of Witz\" Subject: " } ] }, { "message_id": "<493EE060.6080708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-09T21:17:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493ED04C.7060202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nMy assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and Idas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an ancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is Poseidon and the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational explanation.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Abaia can't be all that ancient. In SotL, Typhon wakes up and tells \nSeverian that he detects the monsters for the first time. They are new \nto Typhon, though he must have possessed mental powers sufficient to \nsense them before his \"death,\" if they were there and powerful enough at \nthat time.\n\nIf we connect the \"black bean\" story with Abaia and company, we also \nknow that they arrived during a rule that was more harsh than the \nautarchs, and that the woman who introduced them was torn to pieces for \nattempting to use them to seize power.\n\nOne possible story, tying in with things we learn later in the BotSS:\n1) Cilinia, Typhon's daughter, was involved in plotting with the monster \nSyclla.\n2) She died a few years after being scanned for the Whorl.\n3) She was power-hungry, since her personality also plotted against Pas \non the Whorl.\n4) Thus, she could be the woman who used the black beans -- embryo \nMegatherians drawn from space by interstellar travel or by specula.\n5) She was probably executed by Typhon for this crime.\n6) In the early stages the minds of the monsters might not be strong \nenough to detect by Typhon's mental powers.\n7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image \nconnection between \"black beans\" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun \nis hard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one \nof them is under the ice at the South Pole, after all.\n8) Something caused the people controlling Typhon's rockets to abandon \nthe planet. Typhon called it a \"disaster,\" and mere slow cooling of the \nSun wouldn't be enough.\n9) Undines were probably people recruited and corrupted by Abaia, just \nas Juturna tried to recruit and corrupt Severian. They were given the \npower to breath underwater and grow without limit." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812091323t5ee5a336o557fe150e71a4f87@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-09T21:23:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493EE060.6080708@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems dead-on to me, except that I can't quite square the black\nbeans with Apheta's claim that the Hieropeople were behind the black\nhole in the sun (or, in my pet Wild Theory, the off-hand comment that\nthe black panther in Soldier of Sidon is \"the thing that eats the\nstars.\")\n\nMaybe the Hieropeople gave Cilinia the Megatherian embryos?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/9/08, Dave Tallman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and\nIdas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an\nancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is Poseidon\nand the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abaia can't be all that ancient. In SotL, Typhon wakes up and tells Severian\nthat he detects the monsters for the first time. They are new to Typhon,\nthough he must have possessed mental powers sufficient to sense them before\nhis \"death,\" if they were there and powerful enough at that time.\n\nIf we connect the \"black bean\" story with Abaia and company, we also know\nthat they arrived during a rule that was more harsh than the autarchs, and\nthat the woman who introduced them was torn to pieces for attempting to use\nthem to seize power.\n\nOne possible story, tying in with things we learn later in the BotSS:\n1) Cilinia, Typhon's daughter, was involved in plotting with the monster\nSyclla.\n2) She died a few years after being scanned for the Whorl.\n3) She was power-hungry, since her personality also plotted against Pas on\nthe Whorl.\n4) Thus, she could be the woman who used the black beans -- embryo\nMegatherians drawn from space by interstellar travel or by specula.\n5) She was probably executed by Typhon for this crime.\n6) In the early stages the minds of the monsters might not be strong enough\nto detect by Typhon's mental powers.\n7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image\nconnection between \"black beans\" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun is\nhard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one of them\nis under the ice at the South Pole, after all.\n8) Something caused the people controlling Typhon's rockets to abandon the\nplanet. Typhon called it a \"disaster,\" and mere slow cooling of the Sun\nwouldn't be enough.\n9) Undines were probably people recruited and corrupted by Abaia, just as\nJuturna tried to recruit and corrupt Severian. They were given the power to\nbreath underwater and grow without limit.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-09T22:42:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493EE060.6080708@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image\nconnection between \"black beans\" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun is\nhard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one of them\nis under the ice at the South Pole, after all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe presumably knows--and expects us to know--that under the ice at\nthe South Pole currently sits a continent. What's going on here? Is\nthis one of those singleton clues Wolfe likes to drop?\n\nPossibilities:\n\n- Everyone agreed to a cartographic inversion\n- Magnetic poles reversed\n- Antarctica drifted, like, really far\n- A Velikovskian pole flip" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370812091447l39e73211q646269fb5455ebaf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-09T22:47:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Matthew King wrote:\nWolfe presumably knows--and expects us to know--that under the ice at\nthe South Pole currently sits a continent. What's going on here? Is\nthis one of those singleton clues Wolfe likes to drop?\n\nPossibilities:\n\n- Everyone agreed to a cartographic inversion\n- Magnetic poles reversed\n- Antarctica drifted, like, really far\n- A Velikovskian pole flip" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, Antarctica is the single strongest argument against my\ntheory that the continents have shifted position noticeably by the\ntime of BotNS: the Megatherian Erebus is named for the volcano\non Antarctica in which, apparently, he makes his residence. I was\nkind of surprised that nobody mentioned this when I proposed it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-09T23:23:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812091447l39e73211q646269fb5455ebaf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Matthew King wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe presumably knows--and expects us to know--that under the ice at\nthe South Pole currently sits a continent. What's going on here? Is\nthis one of those singleton clues Wolfe likes to drop?\n\nPossibilities:\n\n- Everyone agreed to a cartographic inversion\n- Magnetic poles reversed\n- Antarctica drifted, like, really far\n- A Velikovskian pole flip" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, Antarctica is the single strongest argument against my\ntheory that the continents have shifted position noticeably by the\ntime of BotNS: the Megatherian Erebus is named for the volcano\non Antarctica in which, apparently, he makes his residence. I was\nkind of surprised that nobody mentioned this when I proposed it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antarctica is alive! Perhaps it is possessed by Thulcandra." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2B637B93-9EA5-4370-9EBF-2115DB227907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-09T23:37:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 9, 2008, at 4:42 PM, Matthew King wrote:\nOn Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Dave Tallman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image\nconnection between \"black beans\" in the sea and a black hole in the \nSun is\nhard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- \none of them\nis under the ice at the South Pole, after all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe presumably knows--and expects us to know--that under the ice at\nthe South Pole currently sits a continent. What's going on here? Is\nthis one of those singleton clues Wolfe likes to drop?\n\nPossibilities:\n\n- Everyone agreed to a cartographic inversion" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you know, everyone likes to be at the top of the map.....perhaps \nthe Ascians, and the trans-Ascians, put Erebus at the North Pole.\n\nOr maybe It is in fact just the eponymous Volcano God. I wonder what \ndating It is like.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493F2FE6.6020402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-10T02:56:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<2B637B93-9EA5-4370-9EBF-2115DB227907@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm.\n\nThe black beans appear to be a tough knot to unravel. I don't see how 5 beans can become 17 megatherians, nor how they can indicate both Abaia/Erebus and the black hole in the sun. I wonder if they have been connected to any old myths ... real ones, I mean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:17:20 -0700\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <493EE060.6080708 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and Idas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an ancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is Poseidon and the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational explanation.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nAbaia can't be all that ancient. In SotL, Typhon wakes up and tells \nSeverian that he detects the monsters for the first time. They are new \nto Typhon, though he must have possessed mental powers sufficient to \nsense them before his \"death,\" if they were there and powerful enough at \nthat time.\n\nIf we connect the \"black bean\" story with Abaia and company, we also \nknow that they arrived during a rule that was more harsh than the \nautarchs, and that the woman who introduced them was torn to pieces for \nattempting to use them to seize power.\n\nOne possible story, tying in with things we learn later in the BotSS:\n1) Cilinia, Typhon's daughter, was involved in plotting with the monster \nSyclla.\n2) She died a few years after being scanned for the Whorl.\n3) She was power-hungry, since her personality also plotted against Pas \non the Whorl.\n4) Thus, she could be the woman who used the black beans -- embryo \nMegatherians drawn from space by interstellar travel or by specula.\n5) She was probably executed by Typhon for this crime.\n6) In the early stages the minds of the monsters might not be strong \nenough to detect by Typhon's mental powers.\n7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image \nconnection between \"black beans\" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun \nis hard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one \nof them is under the ice at the South Pole, after all.\n8) Something caused the people controlling Typhon's rockets to abandon \nthe planet. Typhon called it a \"disaster,\" and mere slow cooling of the \nSun wouldn't be enough.\n9) Undines were probably people recruited and corrupted by Abaia, just \nas Juturna tried to recruit and corrupt Severian. They were given the \npower to breath underwater and grow without limit.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812091922o47fae821t12af9354dc54c9f4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-10T03:22:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493F2FE6.6020402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How many Megatherians are actually named in the text? Four,\nright--Abaia, Erebus, Scylla and Arioch?\n\nIf it's just these four, how plausible is it that all 17 megatherians\nare similar godlike monsters--that there are 13 such monsters unnamed\nin the text?\n\nMaybe some of the so-called \"megatherians\" are otherworldly monsters,\nand so are human or semi-human, like Baldanders or Typhon and his\nbrood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/9/08, David Stockhoff wrote:\nHmmm.\n\nThe black beans appear to be a tough knot to unravel. I don't see how 5\nbeans can become 17 megatherians, nor how they can indicate both\nAbaia/Erebus and the black hole in the sun. I wonder if they have been\nconnected to any old myths ... real ones, I mean.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:17:20 -0700\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <493EE060.6080708 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and\nIdas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an\nancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is\nPoseidon and the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational\nexplanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abaia can't be all that ancient. In SotL, Typhon wakes up and tells\nSeverian that he detects the monsters for the first time. They are new\nto Typhon, though he must have possessed mental powers sufficient to\nsense them before his \"death,\" if they were there and powerful enough at\nthat time.\n\nIf we connect the \"black bean\" story with Abaia and company, we also\nknow that they arrived during a rule that was more harsh than the\nautarchs, and that the woman who introduced them was torn to pieces for\nattempting to use them to seize power.\n\nOne possible story, tying in with things we learn later in the BotSS:\n1) Cilinia, Typhon's daughter, was involved in plotting with the monster\nSyclla.\n2) She died a few years after being scanned for the Whorl.\n3) She was power-hungry, since her personality also plotted against Pas\non the Whorl.\n4) Thus, she could be the woman who used the black beans -- embryo\nMegatherians drawn from space by interstellar travel or by specula.\n5) She was probably executed by Typhon for this crime.\n6) In the early stages the minds of the monsters might not be strong\nenough to detect by Typhon's mental powers.\n7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image\nconnection between \"black beans\" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun\nis hard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one\nof them is under the ice at the South Pole, after all.\n8) Something caused the people controlling Typhon's rockets to abandon\nthe planet. Typhon called it a \"disaster,\" and mere slow cooling of the\nSun wouldn't be enough.\n9) Undines were probably people recruited and corrupted by Abaia, just\nas Juturna tried to recruit and corrupt Severian. They were given the\npower to breath underwater and grow without limit.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081209-1, 12/09/2008\nTested on: 12/9/2008 9:56:40 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<18D05F939C95447AB6CA55D3AF5099A5@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-10T04:42:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, Antarctica is the single strongest argument against my\ntheory that the continents have shifted position noticeably by the\ntime of BotNS: the Megatherian Erebus is named for the volcano\non Antarctica in which, apparently, he makes his residence. I was\nkind of surprised that nobody mentioned this when I proposed it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Roy wouldn't like your reasoning since it relies on \nevidence-by-reference, but I find it pretty conclusive all by itself. As it \nis, there are other signs pointing to Erebus being at Antarctica as well.\n\nIIRC Severian says that where he is (south of the Equator) it is cold in the \nSouth and warm in the North. It's the opposite in the land of the Ascians. \nSo South is not \"North\" in Severianland.\n\nErebus = Antarctica (presumably in an underground base \"under the ice\").\nAbaia = North Pole (controlling the Ascians)\nScylla = East of Nessus??? I say this since it gives her proximity to \nCilinia\nArioch= Pacific and points West?\n\nThere seems to be only four Megatherians of any significance in Severians \nday. Just because there have been seventeen over the years doesn't mean they \nare all alive or still living on Earth. Typhon might have *become* a \nMegatherian given time and the opportunity to attach more heads and snakey \nappendages.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493F4DD5.7040905@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-10T05:04:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493ED04C.7060202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd to pick up another thread, I think it's helpful to view TBotNS's\ncosmology from a faerie or Greek perspective. Severian need not be\nrelated to the undines, but that's one way of explaining why he does\nindeed seem to have a water-sprite connection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That was my thought at first, but Severian goes on to survive watery \nperil without a companion undine at hand." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493F5373.8070009@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-10T05:28:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493EE060.6080708@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and \nIdas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an \nancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is \nPoseidon and the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational \nexplanation.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abaia can't be all that ancient. In SotL, Typhon wakes up and tells \nSeverian that he detects the monsters for the first time. They are new \nto Typhon, though he must have possessed mental powers sufficient to \nsense them before his \"death,\" if they were there and powerful enough at \nthat time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They could have been in hiding somehow, and then didn't bother with the \nshielding or whatever after he was dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we connect the \"black bean\" story with Abaia and company, we also \nknow that they arrived during a rule that was more harsh than the \nautarchs, and that the woman who introduced them was torn to pieces for \nattempting to use them to seize power.\n\nOne possible story, tying in with things we learn later in the BotSS:\n1) Cilinia, Typhon's daughter, was involved in plotting with the monster \nSyclla.\n2) She died a few years after being scanned for the Whorl.\n3) She was power-hungry, since her personality also plotted against Pas \non the Whorl.\n4) Thus, she could be the woman who used the black beans -- embryo \nMegatherians drawn from space by interstellar travel or by specula." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "good guess, though small black holes are sometimes characterized as \n\"kernels\"; I'd say we've got even odds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5) She was probably executed by Typhon for this crime.\n6) In the early stages the minds of the monsters might not be strong \nenough to detect by Typhon's mental powers.\n7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image \nconnection between \"black beans\" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun \nis hard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one \nof them is under the ice at the South Pole, after all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you mean Erebus, Mt Erebus is far from the pole on an island off the \nAntractic coast. Still lots of geothermal power for nefarious schemes, \nand if the eternal smoke were to suddenly stop when roofed over, that's \na symptom to be mis-interpreted as cooling of Urth's core." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "8) Something caused the people controlling Typhon's rockets to abandon \nthe planet. Typhon called it a \"disaster,\" and mere slow cooling of the \nSun wouldn't be enough." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "seeding with monsters would, I guess. The rocket captains must have been \nforeward thinkers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "9) Undines were probably people recruited and corrupted by Abaia, just \nas Juturna tried to recruit and corrupt Severian. They were given the \npower to breath underwater and grow without limit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, though the indefinite life span and freedom of the seas \nprobably sells more dupes." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493F559E.9060705@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-10T05:37:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812091447l39e73211q646269fb5455ebaf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Matthew King wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe presumably knows--and expects us to know--that under the ice at\nthe South Pole currently sits a continent. What's going on here? Is\nthis one of those singleton clues Wolfe likes to drop?\n\nPossibilities:\n\n- Everyone agreed to a cartographic inversion\n- Magnetic poles reversed\n- Antarctica drifted, like, really far\n- A Velikovskian pole flip" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, Antarctica is the single strongest argument against my\ntheory that the continents have shifted position noticeably by the\ntime of BotNS: the Megatherian Erebus is named for the volcano\non Antarctica in which, apparently, he makes his residence. I was\nkind of surprised that nobody mentioned this when I proposed it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Existing volcanoes travel with the continental plates. In the case of \nHawaii, there's a relatively stationary hotspot in the mantle that burns \nnew ones through the crust as it passes overhead, leaving a trail of \nvolcanic mountains. Erebus is the last of a group of volcanoes over a \nclosing-up vent with no particular hot spot. (this is all pre-1980 \nconcumer encyclopedia geology, btw,) So Mt Erebus stays at the edge of \nAntarctica, whether Antarctica goes or stays." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493F5BA7.3070602@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-10T06:03:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493F2FE6.6020402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nHmmm.\n\nThe black beans appear to be a tough knot to unravel. I don't see how\n5 beans can become 17 megatherians, nor how they can indicate both\nAbaia/Erebus and the black hole in the sun. I wonder if they have\nbeen connected to any old myths ... real ones, I mean." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seventeen is the Urthly thirteen - _Lives_ can draw on all of the Age of \nMyth and such and just pick the 17 most lurid folks from the likes of \nChernovog, Vlad the Impaler, Aleister Crowley, Satan, Herod, Ming The \nMerciless, Dr Death, Dr Island, Dr Doctor, Doctor Who, The Master, \nCthulhu, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Adolph Hitler, Darth Vader, Son of Sam, \nJack the Ripper, Attila the Hun, Caligula...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<141272.56421.qm@web180002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-12-10T07:42:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812091922o47fae821t12af9354dc54c9f4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonas speaks of \"a handful of black beans\" (Shadow XXXV)\n\nIs there some other reference in the text that specifies only 5?\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The black beans appear to be a tough knot to unravel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see how 5 beans can become 17 megatherians" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493FD5A1.2020708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-10T14:43:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<141272.56421.qm@web180002.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Smith wrote:\nJonas speaks of \"a handful of black beans\" (Shadow XXXV)\n\nIs there some other reference in the text that specifies only 5?\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps he's thinking of another handful of magic beans, Jack." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-10T15:03:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493F5BA7.3070602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nSeventeen is the Urthly thirteen - _Lives_ can draw on all of the \nAge of Myth and such and just pick the 17 most lurid folks from the \nlikes of Chernovog, Vlad the Impaler, Aleister Crowley, Satan, \nHerod, Ming The Merciless, Dr Death, Dr Island, Dr Doctor, Doctor \nWho, The Master, Cthulhu, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Adolph Hitler, \nDarth Vader, Son of Sam, Jack the Ripper, Attila the Hun, Caligula..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't forget Doctor Girlfriend!\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812100705x4c7ba2bfm1b5b966850398fc3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-10T15:05:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No Doctor Doom?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/10/08, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Dec 10, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seventeen is the Urthly thirteen - _Lives_ can draw on all of the Age of\nMyth and such and just pick the 17 most lurid folks from the likes of\nChernovog, Vlad the Impaler, Aleister Crowley, Satan, Herod, Ming The\nMerciless, Dr Death, Dr Island, Dr Doctor, Doctor Who, The Master, Cthulhu,\nAzathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Adolph Hitler, Darth Vader, Son of Sam, Jack the\nRipper, Attila the Hun, Caligula..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't forget Doctor Girlfriend!\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493FDCEA.1020508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-10T15:14:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812100705x4c7ba2bfm1b5b966850398fc3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who doesn't know Mount Erebus?\n\n... Erebus, fiery-throated on the waste Antarctic shore.\n---The Lathe of Heaven, by Ursula K. Le Guin\n\nPresumably it's no longer an active volcano (so there's no reason why a \ngiant humanoid couldn't live in it---just sayin'). But it wouldn't be \nfull of water either.\n\nAlso, I don't see why the four Beasts need to be part of the 17 \nMegatherians at all, especially if 5 beans = 5 Beasts (one unnamed). We \nhave no other names for them, not even \"Beast.\" There are 4 apocalyptic \nhorsemen, however---FWIW.\n\nMythical Scylla has only 6 heads, but she could be the hundred-headed \nbeast Severian sees (somehow she is also a goddess in BotLS and, I \nthink, BotSS). Of the rest, I don't know of any associations with \nships/clouds/headless giants, which Severian also sees. In myth, Abaia \nis a giant eel who brings a Flood in anger, Erebus is darkness and death \n(and is the sunset/West looking out from Scylla's cave in Homer), and \nArioch is a demon of Semitic origin with a number of interpretations. \nArioch is often depicted with a huge sword, thanks in part to Michael \nMoorcock, I think.\n\nThe main features of the 4 horsemen are: bow and crown, sword, scales, \ndeath (\"*and Hades was following with him*,\" whose other name is \nErebus). That's 2 possible correspondences, but we need 4.\n\nIncidentally, in Moorcock's Elric pantheon, there is \"*Pyaray*, the \n*Tentacled Whisperer of Impossible Secrets*, [who] appears as a giant \nred octopus. His soul is kept in a blue crystal on his head. Sailors who \ndrown at sea are taken into his Chaos Fleet. One portent of the end of \nthe world is the ascent of the Chaos Fleet to the surface.\" Pelagic \nargosy, anyone?\n\nOtherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with one \nanother or any single mythos in any way, except that the names Erebus \nand Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla are Homeric.\n\nI'll have to look into black bean myths.\n\nI don't follow the Erebus/Antarctica pole-flipping thread." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:47:49 -0800\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493FDEC9.80308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-10T15:22:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493FDCEA.1020508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. If he is granted that power or is \"favored\" by the sea fairies, he can breathe water, whether he has a companion or not. \n\nHowever, in TUotNS, he dives deep down to drowned Nessus with no problem because he is an aquastor who cannot be killed. When the gun of the Tower fires on him, he is struck, killed, and recovers instantly; there is no reason to apply narrow concepts of \"living\" or \"dead\" to him now. Juturna basically tells him this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 23:04:21 -0600\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <493F4DD5.7040905 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And to pick up another thread, I think it's helpful to view TBotNS's\ncosmology from a faerie or Greek perspective. Severian need not be\nrelated to the undines, but that's one way of explaining why he does\nindeed seem to have a water-sprite connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThat was my thought at first, but Severian goes on to survive watery \nperil without a companion undine at hand.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<493FDFA9.4010104@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-10T15:26:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493FDEC9.80308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought whoever brought up Jonas's story said there were 5 beans. I haven't dug up the text yet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:43:45 -0600\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: jsmith2627 at att.net, The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <493FD5A1.2020708 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nJohn Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jonas speaks of \"a handful of black beans\" (Shadow XXXV)\n\nIs there some other reference in the text that specifies only 5?\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nPerhaps he's thinking of another handful of magic beans, Jack.\n\n\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11227.67.142.130.21.1228924318.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-10T15:51:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seventeen is the Urthly thirteen - _Lives_ can draw on all of the\nAge of Myth and such and just pick the 17 most lurid folks from the\nlikes of Chernovog, Vlad the Impaler, Aleister Crowley, Satan,\nHerod, Ming The Merciless, Dr Death, Dr Island, Dr Doctor, Doctor\nWho, The Master, Cthulhu, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Adolph Hitler,\nDarth Vader, Son of Sam, Jack the Ripper, Attila the Hun, Caligula..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't forget Doctor Girlfriend!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Dr Henry Killinger!\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4623.67.142.130.21.1228924477.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-10T15:54:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493FDCEA.1020508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who doesn't know Mount Erebus?\n\n... Erebus, fiery-throated on the waste Antarctic shore.\n---The Lathe of Heaven, by Ursula K. Le Guin\n\nPresumably it's no longer an active volcano" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is active.\n\nIt has a lava lake, even.\n\nhttp://erebus.nmt.edu/\n\n\n\n.\n\n(so there's no reason why a" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "giant humanoid couldn't live in it---just sayin'). But it wouldn't be\nfull of water either.\n\nAlso, I don't see why the four Beasts need to be part of the 17\nMegatherians at all, especially if 5 beans = 5 Beasts (one unnamed). We\nhave no other names for them, not even \"Beast.\" There are 4 apocalyptic\nhorsemen, however---FWIW.\n\nMythical Scylla has only 6 heads, but she could be the hundred-headed\nbeast Severian sees (somehow she is also a goddess in BotLS and, I\nthink, BotSS). Of the rest, I don't know of any associations with\nships/clouds/headless giants, which Severian also sees. In myth, Abaia\nis a giant eel who brings a Flood in anger, Erebus is darkness and death\n(and is the sunset/West looking out from Scylla's cave in Homer), and\nArioch is a demon of Semitic origin with a number of interpretations.\nArioch is often depicted with a huge sword, thanks in part to Michael\nMoorcock, I think.\n\nThe main features of the 4 horsemen are: bow and crown, sword, scales,\ndeath (\"*and Hades was following with him*,\" whose other name is\nErebus). That's 2 possible correspondences, but we need 4.\n\nIncidentally, in Moorcock's Elric pantheon, there is \"*Pyaray*, the\n*Tentacled Whisperer of Impossible Secrets*, [who] appears as a giant\nred octopus. His soul is kept in a blue crystal on his head. Sailors who\ndrown at sea are taken into his Chaos Fleet. One portent of the end of\nthe world is the ascent of the Chaos Fleet to the surface.\" Pelagic\nargosy, anyone?\n\nOtherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with one\nanother or any single mythos in any way, except that the names Erebus\nand Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla are Homeric.\n\nI'll have to look into black bean myths.\n\nI don't follow the Erebus/Antarctica pole-flipping thread." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:47:49 -0800\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines" } ] }, { "message_id": "<292272.84281.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2008-12-10T16:26:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<11227.67.142.130.21.1228924318.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "come on....how could you forget Dr Phil????\n\nTalk about evil...\n\n\nSkype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Wed, 12/10/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 7:51 AM\nOn Dec 10, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seventeen is the Urthly thirteen - _Lives_ can draw on all of the\nAge of Myth and such and just pick the 17 most lurid folks from the\nlikes of Chernovog, Vlad the Impaler, Aleister Crowley, Satan,\nHerod, Ming The Merciless, Dr Death, Dr Island, Dr Doctor, Doctor\nWho, The Master, Cthulhu, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Adolph Hitler,\nDarth Vader, Son of Sam, Jack the Ripper, Attila the Hun, Caligula..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't forget Doctor Girlfriend!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Dr Henry Killinger!\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49400ED6.8090608@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-10T18:47:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<4623.67.142.130.21.1228924477.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWho doesn't know Mount Erebus?\n\n... Erebus, fiery-throated on the waste Antarctic shore.\n---The Lathe of Heaven, by Ursula K. Le Guin\n\nPresumably it's no longer an active volcano" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is active.\n\nIt has a lava lake, even.\n\nhttp://erebus.nmt.edu/" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where's the monster?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4940146F.5080504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-10T19:11:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49400ED6.8090608@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, I meant in Severian's time.\n\nVodalus says Erebus wants humanity to conquer the stars again, only this time as their slaves, \"who wait until man is purified again, ready to join with them in the conquest of the universe.\" So neither he nor Abaia would want to do anything to make humanity impure or otherwise delay that time. Thus, they couldn't be the cause of humanity's disgrace nor the wounding of the sun, unless they are very stupid. \n\nTheir main attributes are size and mental powers; Vodalus does not make their physical forms clear: \"You mustn't think of them battering at the Wall with their fists, or tossing boulders about.\" It would make sense if they are aliens who came to Urth seeking to control the Autarchs, whom they knew would eventually produce the New Sun and thus (they think) their galactic empire. So the struggle between them and the Hierodules literally makes pawns of the human species.\n\nAnyway, it is indeed a \"handful\" of black beans, not 5.\n\nAlso, Severian sees the many-headed monster, along with Medusa's head, in an earlier dream brought by Abaia. This seems to favor my own opinion that the vision of \"Beasts\" after the flood is also a dream. I don't think the many-headed beast and the headless giant are Abaia's gang." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:54:37 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812101454g55a6d7cbo5f449221b8d74017@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-10T22:54:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<4940146F.5080504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\nThis seems dead-on to me, except that I can't quite square the black\nbeans with Apheta's claim that the Hieropeople were behind the black\nhole in the sun (or, in my pet Wild Theory, the off-hand comment that\nthe black panther in Soldier of Sidon is \"the thing that eats the\nstars.\")\n\nMaybe the Hieropeople gave Cilinia the Megatherian embryos?\n\nApheta's words don't read like a direct confession to planting the black\nhole to me: \"You know that we have condemned the peoples of Urth, and why.\nThey now feel that they have earned our forgiveness, and the chance to\nresume the places they held of old --\"\n\nThe condemnation sounds like something administrative, because is it tied to\n\"the chance to resume the places they held of old.\" It may be that the\npeoples of Urth were condemned because of something an Urth person did (i.e.\nruin their sun). I believe Urth was quarantined from human-led space travel\n-- that was the main punishment (this ties in well with the \"resume the\nplaces\" line). In this view, the help with Urth's Sun problem was a\nside-issue, only allowed after forgiveness was obtained." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-10T23:21:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812101454g55a6d7cbo5f449221b8d74017@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apheta's words don't read like a direct confession to planting the black\nhole to me: \"You know that we have condemned the peoples of Urth, and why.\nThey now feel that they have earned our forgiveness, and the chance to\nresume the places they held of old --\"\n\nThe condemnation sounds like something administrative, because is it tied to\n\"the chance to resume the places they held of old.\" It may be that the\npeoples of Urth were condemned because of something an Urth person did (i.e.\nruin their sun). I believe Urth was quarantined from human-led space travel\n-- that was the main punishment (this ties in well with the \"resume the\nplaces\" line). In this view, the help with Urth's Sun problem was a\nside-issue, only allowed after forgiveness was obtained." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I too have a hard time buying any of the explanations of where the text clues us into any astroengineering.\n\nalong that line of reasoning, the Old Autarch's dialogue could possibly add some support. From the \"Autarch of the Commonwealth chapter in Citadel:\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\"You were right to hate me, Severian. I stand? as you will stand? \nfor so much that is wrong.\" \n\n\"Why?\" I asked. \"Why?\" I was on my knees beside him. \n\"Because all else is worse. Until the New Sun comes, we have but a \nchoice of evils. All have been tried, and all have failed. Goods in \ncommon, the rule of the people? everything. You wish for \nprogress? The Ascians have it. They are deafened by it, crazed by \nthe death of Nature till they are ready to accept Erebus and the rest \nas gods. We hold humankind stationary? in barbarism. The \nAutarch protects the people from the exultants, and the exultants? \nshelter them from the Autarch. The religious comfort them. We \nhave closed the roads to paralyze the social order?\" \n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nWe know the Hierodules are behind the Autarchy. When the Autarch says \"we\" he probably means the Hierarchs and the state. So, it could be that the condemnation is that they were held in barbarism. That they were 'condemned' to a lesser evil than that of Erebus's brand of evil.\n\nAlso, Severian says in Urth XII\n\"I felt my consciousness falling in upon itself as the matter does in the heart of a star\" \n\nthe combination of these two bits of text may support the final potential explanation that the Lexicon Urthus gives for why a black hole might be in the heart of the sun.\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\"Finally there is a theory of how there might already be a black hole in the heart of our star...Among the many possibilities presented by Pournelle, one seems especially germane: \"there's a black hole of around 1% of the Sun's mass dead center in our star, and the Sun shines because matter falling into the hole gives off energy; there's no fusion in there at all\"\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nNow, I don't know much about this stuff and had never heard that theory. Given that it's not common knowledge (as far as I know) its' interesting that Severian, of limited education, would just sort of understand this as a common explanation of what goes on in the heart of a star. This makes me think that Wolfe is probably buying into this theory, at least as far as BoTNS is concerned. Which, would, it seems make the black hole a natural event, just as entropy of the universe is a natural event." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081210234924.D4D3A8039@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-12-10T23:49:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<493FDCEA.1020508@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote:\nOtherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with \none another or any single mythos in any way, except that the names \nErebus and Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla \nare Homeric." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Arioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared \nin works as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al.\n\nErebus son of Chaos was shadow. Also a part of or alternate name for \nall of Hades. The word has proto-indo-european roots and may be \ncognate the Hebrew erebh, sunset.\n\nScylla, daughter of Nissus king of Megara. Or (more likely): one of \nthe monster guardians the straits of Messina, either 6 headed or a \nsingle human head with 4 dogs' heads.\n\n\nThematically all these three are bad ends for men - or mankind.\n\nSo even if their motives are complex and their actions mot entirely \nexplicable I think the name are enough to tell us that Wolfe means us \nto understand that This Is Not A Good Idea.\n\nMatthew\n\n\nSi non confectus, non reficiat" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3AF03782-E1EA-40EA-A0F6-91C8BC940449@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-11T08:30:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, the — marks in this should mostly be periods" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 10, 2008, at 3:21 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nalong that line of reasoning, the Old Autarch's dialogue could \npossibly add some support. From the \"Autarch of the Commonwealth \nchapter in Citadel:\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\"You were right to hate me, Severian. I stand? as you will stand?\nfor so much that is wrong.\"\n\n\"Why?\" I asked. \"Why?\" I was on my knees beside him.\n\"Because all else is worse. Until the New Sun comes, we have but a\nchoice of evils. All have been tried, and all have failed. Goods in\ncommon, the rule of the people? everything. You wish for\nprogress? The Ascians have it. They are deafened by it, crazed by\nthe death of Nature till they are ready to accept Erebus and the rest\nas gods. We hold humankind stationary? in barbarism. The\nAutarch protects the people from the exultants, and the exultants?\nshelter them from the Autarch. The religious comfort them. We\nhave closed the roads to paralyze the social order?\"\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49415035.2020501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-11T17:39:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<3AF03782-E1EA-40EA-A0F6-91C8BC940449@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's certainly true, and that's why I briefly considered a connection with the apocalypse. Arioch is only mentioned once at the opening of Book 3, and Scylla only once in Book 2. They are unimportant unless they provide a clue to the significance of the main 2. I'm not sure they do.\n\nObviously, all are monsters. Scylla's physical form is probably less important than the root \"to rend\" (conflated by poets with crab and bitch, thus her depicted form). Arioch may signify some kind of devourer, though there are many far cooler devourers in mythology. Wolfe may have chosen them to round out the bunch, but that's all I see. Maybe he wanted to give a shout-out to Milton.\n\nFunny that Abaia did not after all cause the Flood. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:49:01 +0000\nFrom: Matthew Malthouse \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <20081210234924.D4D3A8039 at diego.dreamhost.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; format=flowed\n\nAt 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with \none another or any single mythos in any way, except that the names \nErebus and Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla \nare Homeric." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n\nArioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared \nin works as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al.\n\nErebus son of Chaos was shadow. Also a part of or alternate name for \nall of Hades. The word has proto-indo-european roots and may be \ncognate the Hebrew erebh, sunset.\n\nScylla, daughter of Nissus king of Megara. Or (more likely): one of \nthe monster guardians the straits of Messina, either 6 headed or a \nsingle human head with 4 dogs' heads.\n\n\nThematically all these three are bad ends for men - or mankind.\n\nSo even if their motives are complex and their actions mot entirely \nexplicable I think the name are enough to tell us that Wolfe means us \nto understand that This Is Not A Good Idea.\n\nMatthew\n\n\nSi non confectus, non reficiat\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-11T17:53:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49415035.2020501@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "on a mundane note, I think the fact that he left these players offstage is just great, even though my first read I was a bit disappointed that they didn't have more of a presence. I think as menacing threats, they're scarier because they're unknown.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 09:39 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\n\nThat's certainly true, and that's why I briefly considered a connection with the apocalypse. Arioch is only mentioned once at the opening of Book 3, and Scylla only once in Book 2. They are unimportant unless they provide a clue to the significance of the main 2. I'm not sure they do.\n\nObviously, all are monsters. Scylla's physical form is probably less important than the root \"to rend\" (conflated by poets with crab and bitch, thus her depicted form). Arioch may signify some kind of devourer, though there are many far cooler devourers in mythology. Wolfe may have chosen them to round out the bunch, but that's all I see. Maybe he wanted to give a shout-out to Milton.\n\nFunny that Abaia did not after all cause the Flood. \n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:49:01 +0000\nFrom: Matthew Malthouse \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <20081210234924.D4D3A8039 at diego.dreamhost.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; format=flowed\n\nAt 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with \none another or any single mythos in any way, except that the names \nErebus and Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla \nare Homeric." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Arioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared \nin works as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al.\n\nErebus son of Chaos was shadow. Also a part of or alternate name for \nall of Hades. The word has proto-indo-european roots and may be \ncognate the Hebrew erebh, sunset.\n\nScylla, daughter of Nissus king of Megara. Or (more likely): one of \nthe monster guardians the straits of Messina, either 6 headed or a \nsingle human head with 4 dogs' heads.\n\n\nThematically all these three are bad ends for men - or mankind.\n\nSo even if their motives are complex and their actions mot entirely \nexplicable I think the name are enough to tell us that Wolfe means us \nto understand that This Is Not A Good Idea.\n\nMatthew\n\n\nSi non confectus, non reficiat\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081210-0, 12/10/2008\nTested on: 12/11/2008 12:39:02 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<494159BD.2090303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-11T18:19:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also don't recall any evidence that the black hole had anything to do with any punishment. The suns inhabited by humans are cut off from one another, and the Commonwealth is frozen so that no change can come before it is judged. As long as the Ascians are fended off, it can't fall, nor will it progress. \n\nThat's punishment enough---a kind of purgatory. Eventually, the purgatory will become a cold hell if a new sun is not brought." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:54:46 -0700\nFrom: \"Dave Tallman\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID:\n\t<1bf4dd40812101454g55a6d7cbo5f449221b8d74017 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nJohn Watkins wrote:\n\nThis seems dead-on to me, except that I can't quite square the black\nbeans with Apheta's claim that the Hieropeople were behind the black\nhole in the sun (or, in my pet Wild Theory, the off-hand comment that\nthe black panther in Soldier of Sidon is \"the thing that eats the\nstars.\")\n\nMaybe the Hieropeople gave Cilinia the Megatherian embryos?\n\nApheta's words don't read like a direct confession to planting the black\nhole to me: \"You know that we have condemned the peoples of Urth, and why.\nThey now feel that they have earned our forgiveness, and the chance to\nresume the places they held of old --\"\n\nThe condemnation sounds like something administrative, because is it tied to\n\"the chance to resume the places they held of old.\" It may be that the\npeoples of Urth were condemned because of something an Urth person did (i.e.\nruin their sun). I believe Urth was quarantined from human-led space travel\n-- that was the main punishment (this ties in well with the \"resume the\nplaces\" line). In this view, the help with Urth's Sun problem was a\nside-issue, only allowed after forgiveness was obtained." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10812111035he34ec14i19af61d8210b2438@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-11T18:35:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<20081210234924.D4D3A8039@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Matthew Malthouse\n wrote:\nAt 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with one\nanother or any single mythos in any way, except that the names Erebus and\nArioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla are Homeric." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Arioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared in\nworks as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know Moorcock published at least one of Wolfe's stories, so perhaps\nhe was making a Paradise Lost reference AND homaging Moorcock?\n\nThe problem there is that Moorcock and Wolfe are pretty much\ncompletely opposed philosophically and Moorcock is probably not the\nfirst writer Wolfe would \"call out\".\n\nArioch in Moorcock's books is one of the major gods of Chaos, which\nseems relevant.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812111043g2882f285kc8c3eb635275150a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-11T18:43:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10812111035he34ec14i19af61d8210b2438@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sword Eterne in Wizard Knight is a Moorcock homage, isn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/08, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nOn Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Matthew Malthouse\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with one\nanother or any single mythos in any way, except that the names Erebus and\nArioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla are Homeric." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Arioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared in\nworks as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know Moorcock published at least one of Wolfe's stories, so perhaps\nhe was making a Paradise Lost reference AND homaging Moorcock?\n\nThe problem there is that Moorcock and Wolfe are pretty much\ncompletely opposed philosophically and Moorcock is probably not the\nfirst writer Wolfe would \"call out\".\n\nArioch in Moorcock's books is one of the major gods of Chaos, which\nseems relevant.\n\n-Matt\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49416230.2010003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-11T18:55:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812111043g2882f285kc8c3eb635275150a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz---\n\nTwo thoughts:\n\nFirst, I am not sure Severian's thought needs to refer to a black hole. It sounds to me like what happens at the heart of a normal star. There is immense pressure and matter becomes plasma.\n\nSecond, it just happens to be true that Jerry Pournelle is a nutjob and his theory is impossible.\n\nBut it raises a good point, and what scraps of Lexicon Urthus I can read suggest parallel thinking. And that is this---that, IF Wolfe intended Urth to be of great age (millions of years) so that he could depict the sun as red and dying (as depicted in The Time Machine), THEN he would have had to deal with the problem of its ballooning into a red giant, eventually swallowing all 4 inner planets) in around 5 billion years---because that's the Main Sequence evolutionary path for a yellow star with the sun's mass, and that's how long it would take. He could have dealt with this in the following ways, by:\n\n-Ignoring stellar physics and making shit up, or convincing us that Urth is 5 billion years older \n\n-Suggesting that humans or Hieros plugged a hole in the Sun to stop its evolution\n\n-Imagining that some unlikely event arose RANDOMLY to knock the Sun off its normal course of evolution\n\n-Appealing to myth to force some other kind of ending to the Sun\n\nI think the first is obviously out and I see little evidence for the second, though it's possible. Nowhere is the worm in the Sun linked to crime or punishment or the Hieros, and we know that when they brought the Fountain (a white hole), they had to physically drag or throw it. There's no record of a black hole passing Urth. Freezing the Sun's evolution would save Urth, not kill it.\n\n(No idea what is supposed to happen when the 2 holes meet---would they just cancel each other out and let the Sun go on for another 5 billion years? Presumably; having a white sun would destroy life on Urth just as surely as a black sun.)\n\nBut the last two work very well with one another and with the text. First, there is a Black Worm or Wolf or Panther or Dragon eating the Sun in every mythology. It's one of the main reasons for a hero to arise and go forth to die in combat with powerful beings to save the dying land. Second, there has always been speculation about the possibility of a spontaneous black hole developing in (or a very small one falling into?) the Sun. It's unlikely for it to actually happen, but it's a solid sci-fi explanation for bringing a mythical element into the story. And one way to summarize TBotNS is that it does exactly that over and over---not science fantasy but science MYTHOLOGY.\n\nFinally, it lets Wolfe set the story whenever he damn well wants to, and Urth can grow cold and die long before any stellar physicist can complain that the proper evolutionary track has been violated. \n\nBTW, I have a mostly-cleaned-up PDF of all 5 books. Shall I send you this PDF?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:21:44 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49416435.1080709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-11T19:04:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49416230.2010003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly, and that's just what Lovecraft did with his monsters. Abaia and Erebus are EXTREMELY Lovecraftian. All but the tentacles---Cthulhu also sent out dreams from beneath the sea to trouble the sensitive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:53:26 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4941666A.5020107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-11T19:13:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49416435.1080709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I considered that, Erebus being the son of Chaos, and Scylla being the daughter of Hecate or Crataeis or else of Typhon and Echidna (Chaos, Mother of all monsters), as in TBotLS. \n\nBut Moorcock mixes things up even more prolifically than Wolfe. He's not much of a source, really ...\n\nIt's possible, I guess. Also, I wonder if by the second book Wolfe was already planning TBotLS and was working out a new mythology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:35:46 -0500\nFrom: \"Matthew Keeley\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n\t<44fb53d10812111035he34ec14i19af61d8210b2438 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nOn Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Matthew Malthouse\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with one\nanother or any single mythos in any way, except that the names Erebus and\nArioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla are Homeric." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \n\n\nArioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared in\nworks as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nI know Moorcock published at least one of Wolfe's stories, so perhaps\nhe was making a Paradise Lost reference AND homaging Moorcock?\n\nThe problem there is that Moorcock and Wolfe are pretty much\ncompletely opposed philosophically and Moorcock is probably not the\nfirst writer Wolfe would \"call out\".\n\nArioch in Moorcock's books is one of the major gods of Chaos, which\nseems relevant.\n\n-Matt\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812111120p4b14570p41da414329437080@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-11T19:20:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<4941666A.5020107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nHowever, in TUotNS, he dives deep down to drowned Nessus with no problem\nbecause he is an aquastor who cannot be killed. When the gun of the Tower\nfires on him, he is struck, killed, and recovers instantly; there is no\nreason to apply narrow concepts of \"living\" or \"dead\" to him now. Juturna\nbasically tells him this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Consider Sev in his role of Apu-Punchau. He was an aquastor, but he was able\nto be killed by his people. He self-resurrected only when the light of the\nNew Sun reached him. All of Sev's other resurrections on Urth can be\nexplained as New-Sun-powered miracles, including the gun in the Tower, avern\npoisoning, etc. But the situation in TUotNS is different; he experiences\nbreathing water like a new type of air. It's not at all like his earlier\nordeals of long submersion, which were like drowning (or actually were\ndrowning).\n\nI think that Juturna granted him the gift of water-breathing at their\nencounter in the throne room. She said saving him from drowning was\nsomething she had not yet done, but would do because he said. Severian\nbelieved that Juturna saved him from drowning in the Gyoll in his youth, but\nhe was wrong -- the skull he found and placed in the tomb was his own. What\nemerged from the Gyoll was his first aquastor." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-11T19:57:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812111120p4b14570p41da414329437080@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz---\n\nTwo thoughts:\n\nFirst, I am not sure Severian's thought needs to refer to a black hole. It sounds to me like what happens at the heart of a normal star. There is immense pressure and matter becomes plasma." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, I was unaware of that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, it just happens to be true that Jerry Pournelle is a nutjob and his theory is impossible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "that as well. but wacky theories are the bread and butter of SF, no?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But it raises a good point, and what scraps of Lexicon Urthus I can read suggest parallel thinking. And that is this---that, IF Wolfe intended Urth to be of great age (millions of years) so that he could depict the sun as red and dying (as depicted in The Time Machine), THEN he would have had to deal with the problem of its ballooning into a red giant, eventually swallowing all 4 inner planets) in around 5 billion years---because that's the Main Sequence evolutionary path for a yellow star with the sun's mass, and that's how long it would take. He could have dealt with this in the following ways, by:\n\n-Ignoring stellar physics and making shit up, or convincing us that Urth is 5 billion years older \n\n-Suggesting that humans or Hieros plugged a hole in the Sun to stop its evolution\n\n-Imagining that some unlikely event arose RANDOMLY to knock the Sun off its normal course of evolution\n\n-Appealing to myth to force some other kind of ending to the Sun" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the last two work very well with one another and with the text. First, there is a Black Worm or Wolf or Panther or Dragon eating the Sun in every mythology. It's one of the main reasons for a hero to arise and go forth to die in combat with powerful beings to save the dying land. Second, there has always been speculation about the possibility of a spontaneous black hole developing in (or a very small one falling into?) the Sun. It's unlikely for it to actually happen, but it's a solid sci-fi explanation for bringing a mythical element into the story. And one way to summarize TBotNS is that it does exactly that over and over---not science fantasy but science MYTHOLOGY.\n\nFinally, it lets Wolfe set the story whenever he damn well wants to, and Urth can grow cold and die long before any stellar physicist can complain that the proper evolutionary track has been violated. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose the 2nd point, about the Hieros doesn't conflict with the 3rd and 4th points you make. I think, yeah, Wolfe is working with a micrcosmic apocatastasis here, so the myth comes first, and anything else is just something to make that somewhat plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTW, I have a mostly-cleaned-up PDF of all 5 books. Shall I send you this PDF?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes PLEASE.\n~Witz\n\n\n\nate: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:21:44 +0000" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-11T20:04:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Tallman [mailto:davetallman at msn.com]\nSent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:20 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, in TUotNS, he dives deep down to drowned Nessus with no problem\nbecause he is an aquastor who cannot be killed. When the gun of the Tower\nfires on him, he is struck, killed, and recovers instantly; there is no\nreason to apply narrow concepts of \"living\" or \"dead\" to him now. Juturna\nbasically tells him this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consider Sev in his role of Apu-Punchau. He was an aquastor, but he was able\nto be killed by his people. He self-resurrected only when the light of the\nNew Sun reached him. All of Sev's other resurrections on Urth can be\nexplained as New-Sun-powered miracles, including the gun in the Tower, avern\npoisoning, etc. But the situation in TUotNS is different; he experiences\nbreathing water like a new type of air. It's not at all like his earlier\nordeals of long submersion, which were like drowning (or actually were\ndrowning).\n\nI think that Juturna granted him the gift of water-breathing at their\nencounter in the throne room. She said saving him from drowning was\nsomething she had not yet done, but would do because he said. Severian\nbelieved that Juturna saved him from drowning in the Gyoll in his youth, but\nhe was wrong -- the skull he found and placed in the tomb was his own. What\nemerged from the Gyoll was his first aquastor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm about to come to these chapters again, but I think you're onto something.\nI've been pretty convinced that Sev died in Gyoll in the very beginning as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49417A05.3070301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-11T20:37:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes sense! I thought Juturna was referring to the next Severian's drowning in Gyoll, which would mean there are not 2 (which I have argued against before) but an infinite series of Severians (which is insane). \n\nBut this is better.\n\nAlthough I still don't understand the corpse in the tomb where Severian played. And now that I understand that he did not move into a new body on the starsailship but was recreated by Tzadkiel, I don't understand why his face was changed when he returned from Yesod. Valeria recognized him for the first time then. \n\n...I asked the chiliarch whether he had been a junior officer when I sat the Phoenix Throne.\n\"No, Autarch. I was only a boy.\"\n\"Yet clearly you recall me.\"\n\"It's my duty to know the House Absolute, Autarch. There are pictures and busts of you in some parts of it.\"\n\"They...\"\nThe voice was so weak I scarcely heard it. I turned to make sure it was indeed Valeria who spoke.\n\"They don't really look as you did. They look the way I thought---\"\nI waited, wondering.\nShe waved a hand. It was a weak old woman's gesture. \"As I thought you might when you came back to me, back to our family tower in the Old Citadel. They look the way you do now.\" She laughed, and began to sob.\n\n\n\nIt couldn't be age. Severian has been gone for weeks or months at most." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:20:19 -0700\nFrom: \"Dave Tallman\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\n\n\nI think that Juturna granted him the gift of water-breathing at their\nencounter in the throne room. She said saving him from drowning was\nsomething she had not yet done, but would do because he said. Severian\nbelieved that Juturna saved him from drowning in the Gyoll in his youth, but\nhe was wrong -- the skull he found and placed in the tomb was his own. What\nemerged from the Gyoll was his first aquastor." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-12-11T20:45:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49417A05.3070301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd now that I understand that he did not move into a new body on the \nstarsailship but was recreated by Tzadkiel, I don't understand why his face \nwas changed when he returned from Yesod. Valeria recognized him for the first \ntime then. \n...I asked the chiliarch whether he had been a junior officer when I sat the \nPhoenix Throne.\n\"No, Autarch. I was only a boy.\"\n\"Yet clearly you recall me.\"\n\"It's my duty to know the House Absolute, Autarch. There are pictures and \nbusts of you in some parts of it.\"\n\"They...\"\nThe voice was so weak I scarcely heard it. I turned to make sure it was \nindeed Valeria who spoke.\n\"They don't really look as you did. They look the way I thought---\"\nI waited, wondering.\nShe waved a hand. It was a weak old woman's gesture. \"As I thought you might \nwhen you came back to me, back to our family tower in the Old Citadel. They \nlook the way you do now.\" She laughed, and began to sob.\n\nIt couldn't be age. Severian has been gone for weeks or months at most." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He looks younger/less damaged, I assume.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812111329j659754f9i9c4727c8374b7f70@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-11T21:29:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nAlthough I still don't understand the corpse in the tomb where Severian\nplayed. And now that I understand that he did not move into a new body on\nthe starsailship but was recreated by Tzadkiel, I don't understand why his\nface was changed when he returned from Yesod. Valeria recognized him for the\nfirst time then." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mausolem is indeed a mystery. One thing we know for sure is that\nit is Severian's. \"I have disturbed my own tomb, and I go to lie in\nit.\" It contains three closed coffins and two empty coffins. Who could\nbe in them?\n\nI like the suggestion in Lexicon Urthus that the Sev of UotNS went\nback in time and had it constructed for himself when he got old. The\nrose, spaceship, and fountain markings on the tomb look like a coded\nmessage about the New Sun. The three closed coffins could be the\nremains of Odilio, Pega, and Thais. Perhaps the two open coffins were\nfor Severian and whoever was his wife in his old age. Perhaps they\nwere raided by tomb robbers or relic-seekers.\n\nFor the face-changing issue, they are talking about how the faces of\nrulers are idealized and ennobled in portraits and sculptures. He\ndidn't look that noble in real life, even on the day he came to claim\nValeria. But now he does -- after his character-transformative\nexperiences of becoming the New Sun and the Conciliator. Valeria\nlaughs and cries because now it is too late for her." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-11T21:35:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812111329j659754f9i9c4727c8374b7f70@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The mausolem is indeed a mystery. One thing we know for sure is that\nit is Severian's. \"I have disturbed my own tomb, and I go to lie in\nit.\" It contains three closed coffins and two empty coffins. Who could\nbe in them?\n\nI like the suggestion in Lexicon Urthus that the Sev of UotNS went\nback in time and had it constructed for himself when he got old. The\nrose, spaceship, and fountain markings on the tomb look like a coded\nmessage about the New Sun. The three closed coffins could be the\nremains of Odilio, Pega, and Thais. Perhaps the two open coffins were\nfor Severian and whoever was his wife in his old age. Perhaps they\nwere raided by tomb robbers or relic-seekers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting, I hadn't considered those three characters. good suggestion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the face-changing issue, they are talking about how the faces of\nrulers are idealized and ennobled in portraits and sculptures. He\ndidn't look that noble in real life, even on the day he came to claim\nValeria. But now he does -- after his character-transformative\nexperiences of becoming the New Sun and the Conciliator. Valeria\nlaughs and cries because now it is too late for her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though his portrait as Autarch is horribly scarred, at least on the coin.\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nSaid you gave him a chrisos like none he'd seen.\" \n\"He may return it, if he wishes. Do you want to see one of our coins?\" \n...\n I passed a chrisos across the table. \nHe examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. \"Gold all right. Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. Don't suppose you noticed.\" \n\nThe Chrisos Severian has is from his reign, one Idas brought with when he boarded along with Sev. unless I'm mistaken." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812111344q124ee25fy6dcdf746331dd170@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-11T21:44:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/11/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For the face-changing issue, they are talking about how the faces of\nrulers are idealized and ennobled in portraits and sculptures. He\ndidn't look that noble in real life, even on the day he came to claim\nValeria. But now he does -- after his character-transformative\nexperiences of becoming the New Sun and the Conciliator. Valeria\nlaughs and cries because now it is too late for her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Though his portrait as Autarch is horribly scarred, at least on the coin.\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nSaid you gave him a chrisos like none he'd seen.\"\n\"He may return it, if he wishes. Do you want to see one of our coins?\"\n...\n I passed a chrisos across the table.\nHe examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. \"Gold all right. Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. Don't suppose you noticed.\"\n\nThe Chrisos Severian has is from his reign, one Idas brought with when he boarded along with Sev. unless I'm mistaken." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Severian's face was scarred by Agia in Citadel. When he returns\nas the New Sun, his face is healed. That, and the many years that\nhave passed for her, is why Valeria doesn't recognize him at first." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<498fb7181d3ce6655bb6595ad7ea6337.squirrel@webmail.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-11T22:32:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Tallman [mailto:davetallman at msn.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm about to come to these chapters again, but I think you're onto\nsomething.\nI've been pretty convinced that Sev died in Gyoll in the very beginning as\nwell." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can see water-breathing as a useful edit to make in an aquastor, the\nexchange of water could speed the accumulation of \"real\" matter and get\nthem off dependence on the sustaining machinery all the sooner." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49384.66.126.239.225.1229038475.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-11T23:34:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "First, there is a Black Worm or Wolf or Panther or Dragon eating the Sun\nin every mythology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Caput and Cauda Draconis (them Head and Tail of the dragon) are\nassociated with lunar and solar eclipses. I think Caput is actually the\none associated with Solar eclipses.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caput_Draconis\n\nCaput being the ascending or north-going and cauda the descending or\nsouth-going node of the Moon's orbit in reference to the Sun.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_node\n\nHow many dragons are there in the sky?\n\n\n\n.\n\n\nIt's one of the main reasons for a hero to arise and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "go forth to die in combat with powerful beings to save the dying land.\nSecond, there has always been speculation about the possibility of a\nspontaneous black hole developing in (or a very small one falling into?)\nthe Sun. It's unlikely for it to actually happen, but it's a solid sci-fi\nexplanation for bringing a mythical element into the story. And one way\nto summarize TBotNS is that it does exactly that over and over---not\nscience fantasy but science MYTHOLOGY.\n\nFinally, it lets Wolfe set the story whenever he damn well wants to, and\nUrth can grow cold and die long before any stellar physicist can complain\nthat the proper evolutionary track has been violated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose the 2nd point, about the Hieros doesn't conflict with the 3rd\nand 4th points you make. I think, yeah, Wolfe is working with a\nmicrcosmic apocatastasis here, so the myth comes first, and anything else\nis just something to make that somewhat plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "BTW, I have a mostly-cleaned-up PDF of all 5 books. Shall I send you this\nPDF?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes PLEASE.\n~Witz\n\n\n\nate: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:21:44 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I too have a hard time buying any of the explanations of where the text\nclues us into any astroengineering.\n\nalong that line of reasoning, the Old Autarch's dialogue could possibly\nadd some support. From the \"Autarch of the Commonwealth chapter in\nCitadel:\n\nWe know the Hierodules are behind the Autarchy. When the Autarch says\n\"we\" he probably means the Hierarchs and the state. So, it could be that\nthe condemnation is that they were held in barbarism. That they were\n'condemned' to a lesser evil than that of Erebus's brand of evil.\n\nAlso, Severian says in Urth XII\n\"I felt my consciousness falling in upon itself as the matter does in the\nheart of a star\"\n\nthe combination of these two bits of text may support the final potential\nexplanation that the Lexicon Urthus gives for why a black hole might be\nin the heart of the sun.\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\"Finally there is a theory of how there might already be a black hole in\nthe heart of our star...Among the many possibilities presented by\nPournelle, one seems especially germane: \"there's a black hole of around\n1% of the Sun's mass dead center in our star, and the Sun shines because\nmatter falling into the hole gives off energy; there's no fusion in there\nat all\"\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nNow, I don't know much about this stuff and had never heard that theory.\nGiven that it's not common knowledge (as far as I know) its' interesting\nthat Severian, of limited education, would just sort of understand this\nas a common explanation of what goes on in the heart of a star. This\nmakes me think that Wolfe is probably buying into this theory, at least\nas far as BoTNS is concerned. Which, would, it seems make the black hole\na natural event, just as entropy of the universe is a natural event.\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081210-0, 12/10/2008\nTested on: 12/11/2008 1:55:46 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49402.66.126.239.225.1229038741.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-11T23:39:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian has horrible facial scars all the time he is ruling, from Agia\nsmacking him with her leopardman claws, I forget what Wolfe called them.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And now that I understand that he did not move into a new body on the\nstarsailship but was recreated by Tzadkiel, I don't understand why his\nface\nwas changed when he returned from Yesod. Valeria recognized him for the\nfirst\ntime then.\n...I asked the chiliarch whether he had been a junior officer when I sat\nthe\nPhoenix Throne.\n\"No, Autarch. I was only a boy.\"\n\"Yet clearly you recall me.\"\n\"It's my duty to know the House Absolute, Autarch. There are pictures\nand\nbusts of you in some parts of it.\"\n\"They...\"\nThe voice was so weak I scarcely heard it. I turned to make sure it was\nindeed Valeria who spoke.\n\"They don't really look as you did. They look the way I thought---\"\nI waited, wondering.\nShe waved a hand. It was a weak old woman's gesture. \"As I thought you\nmight\nwhen you came back to me, back to our family tower in the Old Citadel.\nThey\nlook the way you do now.\" She laughed, and began to sob.\n\nIt couldn't be age. Severian has been gone for weeks or months at most." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He looks younger/less damaged, I assume.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49427C01.3070207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-12T14:58:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49402.66.126.239.225.1229038741.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the first point, Severian writes this in TCotA before he experiences \nand writes TUotNS: Then those who walk the corridors walked back to the \ntime when he was young, and my own story---as I have given it here in so \nmany pages---began. The second thing is this. He was not returned to his \nown time but became himself a walker of the corridors. I know now the \nidentity of the man called the Head of Day, and why Hildegrin, who was \ntoo near, perished when we met, and why the witches fled. I know too in \nwhose mausoleum I tarried as a child, that little building of stone with \nits rose, its fountain, and its flying ship all graven. I have disturbed \nmy own tomb, and now I go to lie in it. Problems: ---He can't yet know \nthat HD/AP is himself in his own future, as well as an aquastor who \npresumably is immortal. Later he is stunned when he finds out. So he \nmust be another Severian---Sev 1 out of 2, or else a corpse the single \nSeverian left behind. ---If the man in the tomb is Severian 1, who put \nhim in it? You can build your own tomb but you can't put yourself in it. \nAlso, you wouldn't build your own tomb unless you expected to die, and \nany Severian who is mature and alive before Severian himself is born \nknows he won't ever die, because otherwise, what would he be doing \nthere? ---If the time-walkers did take him back to the time of his \nyouth, he would have been dead then, or else he would have been a threat \nto the Throne. They would have had to go to the Autarch and say, Build \nus a tomb, we have a corpse of a failed god. It's true that Apheta and \nTzadkiel are unclear on Severian's fate if he fails; perhaps Severian \n1's fate is to be put to sleep in a coffin, honored and forgotten, in a \ntime when no one knows him. (Do the coffins preserve bodies somehow? If \nso, isn't there a danger of Severian merging with the corpse, whatever \nit is? If not, could the corpse be an aquastor corpse?) ---But if the \ncorpse is Sev 1, he can't also be the Sleeper because the Sleeper is Sev \n2. It may make sense that Sev 2 lies in a coffin while the other of the \n5 gods do not, but who are the other 2 there and when did he get put in \nthe coffin? Did the Sevs merge at some time? On the second point, your \ntheory sounds good. Severian is a god when he returns to Urth. It would \nbasically be coincidence, then, that his \"icons\" and his god-self \nresemble one another ... but not if you see one as the echo of the \nother. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 \n14:29:49 -0700 From: \"Dave Tallman\" Subject: Re: \n(urth) Abaia and the undines To: urth at lists.urth.net Message-ID: \n<1bf4dd40812111329j659754f9i9c4727c8374b7f70 at mail.gmail.com> " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\" David Stockhoff wrote:\nAlthough I still don't understand the corpse in the tomb where Severian\nplayed. And now that I understand that he did not move into a new body on\nthe starsailship but was recreated by Tzadkiel, I don't understand why his\nface was changed when he returned from Yesod. Valeria recognized him for the\nfirst time then." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mausolem is indeed a mystery. One thing we know for sure is that\nit is Severian's. \"I have disturbed my own tomb, and I go to lie in\nit.\" It contains three closed coffins and two empty coffins. Who could\nbe in them?\n\nI like the suggestion in Lexicon Urthus that the Sev of UotNS went\nback in time and had it constructed for himself when he got old. The\nrose, spaceship, and fountain markings on the tomb look like a coded\nmessage about the New Sun. The three closed coffins could be the\nremains of Odilio, Pega, and Thais. Perhaps the two open coffins were\nfor Severian and whoever was his wife in his old age. Perhaps they\nwere raided by tomb robbers or relic-seekers.\n\nFor the face-changing issue, they are talking about how the faces of\nrulers are idealized and ennobled in portraits and sculptures. He\ndidn't look that noble in real life, even on the day he came to claim\nValeria. But now he does -- after his character-transformative\nexperiences of becoming the New Sun and the Conciliator. Valeria\nlaughs and cries because now it is too late for her." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49427CD2.2030304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-12T15:01:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49427C01.3070207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz wrote:\n\nThough his portrait as Autarch is horribly scarred, at least on the coin.\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nSaid you gave him a chrisos like none he'd seen.\" \n\"He may return it, if he wishes. Do you want to see one of our coins?\" \n...\n I passed a chrisos across the table. \nHe examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. \"Gold all right. Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. Don't suppose you noticed.\" \n\nThe Chrisos Severian has is from his reign, one Idas brought with when he boarded along with Sev. unless I'm mistaken.\n\n\n\n\n\nIf Severian returns significantly more cut up than when he left, that would also explain why Valeria weeps, but not why he was depicted that way in the House Absolute." } ] }, { "message_id": "<26DC2169-3314-4E7E-B5ED-A2527CF7471F@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-12T15:21:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49427CD2.2030304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 12, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWitz wrote:\n\nThough his portrait as Autarch is horribly scarred, at least on the \ncoin.\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nSaid you gave him a chrisos like none he'd seen.\" \"He may return it, \nif he wishes. Do you want to see one of our coins?\" ...\nI passed a chrisos across the table. He examined it, bit it, and \ngave it back to me. \"Gold all right. Looks a trifle like you, 'cept \nhe seems to have got himself cut up. Don't suppose you noticed.\"\nThe Chrisos Severian has is from his reign, one Idas brought with \nwhen he boarded along with Sev. unless I'm mistaken.\n\n\n\nIf Severian returns significantly more cut up than when he left, \nthat would also explain why Valeria weeps, but not why he was \ndepicted that way in the House Absolute." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't follow. he's scarred about the time he becomes Autarch. so \nwhen he reigns in the House Absolute, he's scarred.\nwhen he returns later, he's fixed, but he has a smaller new/different \nscar from his fight with the Monarch's guards, but that happens after \nthe Chrisos scene above." } ] }, { "message_id": "<494281F2.7060408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-12T15:23:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<26DC2169-3314-4E7E-B5ED-A2527CF7471F@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that passage occurs after Severian returns from Yesod, so that makes even better sense than if he is MORE scarred.\n\nWho is the prophetess with the Autarch Valeria when Severian steps forth into the audience room? I thought it was Herena, but Herena is from the time of Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:44:06 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0812111344q124ee25fy6dcdf746331dd170 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nOn 12/11/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "For the face-changing issue, they are talking about how the faces of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "rulers are idealized and ennobled in portraits and sculptures. He\ndidn't look that noble in real life, even on the day he came to claim\nValeria. But now he does -- after his character-transformative\nexperiences of becoming the New Sun and the Conciliator. Valeria\nlaughs and cries because now it is too late for her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \n\nThough his portrait as Autarch is horribly scarred, at least on the coin.\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nSaid you gave him a chrisos like none he'd seen.\"\n\"He may return it, if he wishes. Do you want to see one of our coins?\"\n...\n I passed a chrisos across the table.\nHe examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. \"Gold all right. Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. Don't suppose you noticed.\"\n\nThe Chrisos Severian has is from his reign, one Idas brought with when he boarded along with Sev. unless I'm mistaken." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nYes. Severian's face was scarred by Agia in Citadel. When he returns\nas the New Sun, his face is healed. That, and the many years that\nhave passed for her, is why Valeria doesn't recognize him at first." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-12T17:06:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<494281F2.7060408@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the first point, Severian writes this in TCotA before he experiences \nand writes TUotNS: Then those who walk the corridors walked back to the \ntime when he was young, and my own story---as I have given it here in so \nmany pages---began. The second thing is this. He was not returned to his \nown time but became himself a walker of the corridors. I know now the \nidentity of the man called the Head of Day, and why Hildegrin, who was \ntoo near, perished when we met, and why the witches fled. I know too in \nwhose mausoleum I tarried as a child, that little building of stone with \nits rose, its fountain, and its flying ship all graven. I have disturbed \nmy own tomb, and now I go to lie in it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Problems: \n---He can't yet know " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that HD/AP is himself in his own future, as well as an aquastor who \npresumably is immortal. Later he is stunned when he finds out. So he \nmust be another Severian---Sev 1 out of 2, or else a corpse the single \nSeverian left behind. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The quote above, I believe, is accurate speculation by Severian. Good Intuition. He's not \"stunned\" in tUotNS, he just marvels at it. He encounters his healed face, 10 years older than when he saw Apu Punchau, and he now looks like Apu Punchau whereas he didn't see the likeness before. He's marveling at this 'new face' not shocked to understand his identity.\n\nThere is only One Severian Consciousness. Many bodies, but only one consciousness. Consciousness is primary in Being. There are not mulitiple Severians unless there are multiple consciousnesses." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-12T17:15:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49427C01.3070207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Folks," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday 12 December 2008, David Stockhoff wrote:\n. . . an aquastor who presumably is immortal" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know where this idea got its start, but I don't believe that\nthere's any reason at all to believe that aquastors are immortal.\nSeverian certainly gets his body replaced often enough; but it seems\nthat between replacements, he ages and suffers injuries like anybody\nelse.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-12T17:27:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Mark Millman [mailto:markjmillman at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Folks,\n\nOn Friday 12 December 2008, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ". . . an aquastor who presumably is immortal" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know where this idea got its start, but I don't believe that\nthere's any reason at all to believe that aquastors are immortal.\nSeverian certainly gets his body replaced often enough; but it seems\nthat between replacements, he ages and suffers injuries like anybody\nelse.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's Severian who is immortal. His body doesn't matter. tUotNS makes it very clear that Severian is NOT his body, which dies again and again. by the middle, he's clearly a cosmic entity, a New Sun, a White Fountain, a HEAVENLY BODY, and he puppeteers his little Severian puppet by strings that would strangle half of Briah. In BoTNS, there were many deaths too, though they were covert. In UoTNS, the deaths are overt. I believe the point of these many deaths in UotNS is to illustrate this to him." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-12T17:35:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Son of Witz," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday 12 December 2008, you wrote:\nIt's Severian who is immortal. His body\ndoesn't matter. tUotNS makes it very\nclear that Severian is NOT his body,\nwhich dies again and again. by the\nmiddle, he's clearly a cosmic entity, a\nNew Sun, a White Fountain, a HEAV-\nENLY BODY, and he puppeteers his\nlittle Severian puppet by strings that\nwould strangle half of Briah. In BoTNS,\nthere were many deaths too, though\nthey were covert. In UoTNS, the deaths\nare overt. I believe the point of these\nmany deaths in UotNS is to illustrate\nthis to him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it's Severian who is (physically) immortal; thank you for the\nsupport. The fact that until he brings the New Sun that immortality\nis by the agency of body-replacement with aquastors seems to have\nconfused some people, as there have been several references lately to\naquastors themselves being immortal, which does not seem to be\ntextually supported.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-12T19:01:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Millman wrote:\nYes, it's Severian who is (physically) immortal; thank you for the\nsupport. The fact that until he brings the New Sun that immortality\nis by the agency of body-replacement with aquastors seems to have\nconfused some people, as there have been several references lately to\naquastors themselves being immortal, which does not seem to be\ntextually supported." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aquastors begin as machine-sustained images that need not age, but can, as\nthe machine operator's wish and skill may allow. An aquastor that lasts\nlong enough to accumulate its own matter via eating, etc. can become\nself-sustaining and wean off machine support and thus begin to age and\naccumulate scars like a natural individual would." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4942CB63.20808@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-12T20:36:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49427C01.3070207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nProblems: ---He can't yet know \nthat HD/AP is himself in his own future, as well as an aquastor who \npresumably is immortal. Later he is stunned when he finds out. So he \nmust be another Severian---Sev 1 out of 2, or else a corpse the single \nSeverian left behind. ---If the man in the tomb is Severian 1, who put \nhim in it? You can build your own tomb but you can't put yourself in it. \nAlso, you wouldn't build your own tomb unless you expected to die, and \nany Severian who is mature and alive before Severian himself is born \nknows he won't ever die, because otherwise, what would he be doing \nthere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe these assumptions about immortality of aquastors, and even \nSeverian himself, to be unwarranted. Aquastors can age, be injured, or \ndie. One of the B,F and O trio even say that all of us can be regarded \nas aquastors of the Increate.\n\nSeverian knows that he himself will eventually die -- he doesn't have to \nkeep resurrecting if there is no reason for it, after all. Neither does \nonce being connected to the White Fountain make him immortal, since that \nconnection ceases after it has served its purpose.\n\nI see no reason why he cannot plan his own tomb and eventually be buried \nthere." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4942CCD2.5080904@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-12T20:42:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<494281F2.7060408@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nWho is the prophetess with the Autarch Valeria when Severian steps forth into the audience room? I thought it was Herena, but Herena is from the time of Typhon.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jader's sister. Jader was a boy Severian healed in Thrax (in SotL). His \nsister's full name is never given." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4942D955.7040204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-12T21:36:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<4942CCD2.5080904@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz wrote:\nIf Severian returns significantly more cut up than when he left, \nthat would also explain why Valeria weeps, but not why he was \ndepicted that way in the House Absolute." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't follow. he's scarred about the time he becomes Autarch. so \nwhen he reigns in the House Absolute, he's scarred.\nwhen he returns later, he's fixed, but he has a smaller new/different \nscar from his fight with the Monarch's guards, but that happens after \nthe Chrisos scene above.\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\nRight. The argument is that portraits of Autarch Severian make him look younger and better than he is---even though the chrisos shows him scarred---so when he is healed, he looks like he did before he was scarred and married Valeria.\n\nWhy a coin would show him scarred while his portraits show him unscarred, I don't know. \n\nIs it possible that the portraits Valeria has seen are not of Autarch Severian, whom she knew anyway, but icons of the Conciliator? And that they looked different enough that no one guessed they were the same? It would be a bit like Jesus showing up in short hair and body armor and an assault rifle, then reappearing with long hair and robes and a halo. Suddenly you'd get it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-12T21:48:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<4942D955.7040204@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Tallman [mailto:davetallman at msn.com]\nSent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:36 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Problems: ---He can't yet know \nthat HD/AP is himself in his own future, as well as an aquastor who \npresumably is immortal. Later he is stunned when he finds out. So he \nmust be another Severian---Sev 1 out of 2, or else a corpse the single \nSeverian left behind. ---If the man in the tomb is Severian 1, who put \nhim in it? You can build your own tomb but you can't put yourself in it. \nAlso, you wouldn't build your own tomb unless you expected to die, and \nany Severian who is mature and alive before Severian himself is born \nknows he won't ever die, because otherwise, what would he be doing \nthere?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe these assumptions about immortality of aquastors, and even \nSeverian himself, to be unwarranted. Aquastors can age, be injured, or \ndie. One of the B,F and O trio even say that all of us can be regarded \nas aquastors of the Increate.\n\nSeverian knows that he himself will eventually die -- he doesn't have to \nkeep resurrecting if there is no reason for it, after all. Neither does \nonce being connected to the White Fountain make him immortal, since that \nconnection ceases after it has served its purpose.\n\nI see no reason why he cannot plan his own tomb and eventually be buried \nthere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Immortal may be the wrong word. Severian's various bodies live and die, but his consciousness does not die and is continous between the \"lives\" of his various bodies. And it probably doesn't die when he finally rests in his tomb. Midway through Urth, he very clearly understands his body is a puppet. Puppet of what? A white fountain? a New Sun? what powers do these have to raise the dead if this is all mechanical astroengineering? \nIt's METAPHOR. It's a HEAVENLY BODY. Severian's consciousness is up there in the cosmos, and it has many instantiations in the temporal world. Just, as I believe, the LOGOS does, which is why I've generally tried to use Logos rather than Christ, because everyone seems to get caught up in the specific history of this Jesus character as if that's all there is to the Logos. as if the concept of the Logos didn't preexist Jesus. As if the concept of a redemptive figure that must die so that life can come anew didn't preexist Christ. This is what I'm getting at, nothing Moral or Doctrinal, or, *shudder*, historical.\n\nBut that bit about all of us being regarded as aquastors of the increate is dead on. That's what a lot of this is about. Christ isn't the only instance of the God, we all are, that's why one finds Christ in their hearts. God is right there. \n\n~sonofwitz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-12T21:52:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Friday, December 12, 2008 01:36 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\n\nWitz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Severian returns significantly more cut up than when he left, \nthat would also explain why Valeria weeps, but not why he was \ndepicted that way in the House Absolute." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't follow. he's scarred about the time he becomes Autarch. so \nwhen he reigns in the House Absolute, he's scarred.\nwhen he returns later, he's fixed, but he has a smaller new/different \nscar from his fight with the Monarch's guards, but that happens after \nthe Chrisos scene above.\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\nRight. The argument is that portraits of Autarch Severian make him look younger and better than he is---even though the chrisos shows him scarred---so when he is healed, he looks like he did before he was scarred and married Valeria.\n\nWhy a coin would show him scarred while his portraits show him unscarred, I don't know. \n\nIs it possible that the portraits Valeria has seen are not of Autarch Severian, whom she knew anyway, but icons of the Conciliator? And that they looked different enough that no one guessed they were the same? It would be a bit like Jesus showing up in short hair and body armor and an assault rifle, then reappearing with long hair and robes and a halo. Suddenly you'd get it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like that image. When I was about 15 I did a drawing of Jesus and His Disciples packing aussalt rifles. \"Jesus is back and he's pissed\"\n(speaking of such heresies, has anyone seen Bill Hicks's stand-up comedy about how if Christ returned the LAST thing he'd want to see is a crucifix on his followers? seriously funny)\n\nIn my reread I haven't yet got to any unscarred portraits, and had forgotten them if they're there. But I had just read that bit about the scarred face on the Chrisos, so I'm probably wrong about the portraits. I can't remember clearly. will read that soon though." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4942F3FE.6010601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-12T23:30:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then Severian CAN die.\n\nBut after he becomes a god, can he die?\n\nIs there a point where he is no longer a god---Ushas---and can die?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:01:18 -0600 (CST)\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nMark Millman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, it's Severian who is (physically) immortal; thank you for the\nsupport. The fact that until he brings the New Sun that immortality\nis by the agency of body-replacement with aquastors seems to have\nconfused some people, as there have been several references lately to\naquastors themselves being immortal, which does not seem to be\ntextually supported." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nAquastors begin as machine-sustained images that need not age, but can, as\nthe machine operator's wish and skill may allow. An aquastor that lasts\nlong enough to accumulate its own matter via eating, etc. can become\nself-sustaining and wean off machine support and thus begin to age and\naccumulate scars like a natural individual would.\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26b0d2e40812201413m7b4cca20w89b6a005eeec0a8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Steve McCann", "address": "steve2mccann at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-20T22:13:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<49416230.2010003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a little tangential, but just thought I'd share: this thread\nre:Abaia has reminded me strongly of an artwork by Adriane Fleet:\nhttp://kitsunenoir.com/blog/2008/12/10/the-desktop-wallpaper-project-featuring-adrian-fleet/\n-s" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 11:55 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWitz---\n\nTwo thoughts:\n\nFirst, I am not sure Severian's thought needs to refer to a black hole. It\nsounds to me like what happens at the heart of a normal star. There is\nimmense pressure and matter becomes plasma.\n\nSecond, it just happens to be true that Jerry Pournelle is a nutjob and his\ntheory is impossible.\n\nBut it raises a good point, and what scraps of Lexicon Urthus I can read\nsuggest parallel thinking. And that is this---that, IF Wolfe intended Urth\nto be of great age (millions of years) so that he could depict the sun as\nred and dying (as depicted in The Time Machine), THEN he would have had to\ndeal with the problem of its ballooning into a red giant, eventually\nswallowing all 4 inner planets) in around 5 billion years---because that's\nthe Main Sequence evolutionary path for a yellow star with the sun's mass,\nand that's how long it would take. He could have dealt with this in the\nfollowing ways, by:\n\n-Ignoring stellar physics and making shit up, or convincing us that Urth is\n5 billion years older\n-Suggesting that humans or Hieros plugged a hole in the Sun to stop its\nevolution\n\n-Imagining that some unlikely event arose RANDOMLY to knock the Sun off its\nnormal course of evolution\n\n-Appealing to myth to force some other kind of ending to the Sun\n\nI think the first is obviously out and I see little evidence for the\nsecond, though it's possible. Nowhere is the worm in the Sun linked to crime\nor punishment or the Hieros, and we know that when they brought the Fountain\n(a white hole), they had to physically drag or throw it. There's no record\nof a black hole passing Urth. Freezing the Sun's evolution would save Urth,\nnot kill it.\n\n(No idea what is supposed to happen when the 2 holes meet---would they just\ncancel each other out and let the Sun go on for another 5 billion years?\nPresumably; having a white sun would destroy life on Urth just as surely as\na black sun.)\n\nBut the last two work very well with one another and with the text. First,\nthere is a Black Worm or Wolf or Panther or Dragon eating the Sun in every\nmythology. It's one of the main reasons for a hero to arise and go forth to\ndie in combat with powerful beings to save the dying land. Second, there has\nalways been speculation about the possibility of a spontaneous black hole\ndeveloping in (or a very small one falling into?) the Sun. It's unlikely for\nit to actually happen, but it's a solid sci-fi explanation for bringing a\nmythical element into the story. And one way to summarize TBotNS is that it\ndoes exactly that over and over---not science fantasy but science MYTHOLOGY.\n\nFinally, it lets Wolfe set the story whenever he damn well wants to, and\nUrth can grow cold and die long before any stellar physicist can complain\nthat the proper evolutionary track has been violated.\nBTW, I have a mostly-cleaned-up PDF of all 5 books. Shall I send you this\nPDF?\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:21:44 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-22T01:13:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abaia and the undines", "in_reply_to": "<26b0d2e40812201413m7b4cca20w89b6a005eeec0a8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I love it. hilarious." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 20, 2008, at 2:13 PM, Steve McCann wrote:\nThis is a little tangential, but just thought I'd share: this thread \nre:Abaia has reminded me strongly of an artwork by Adriane Fleet:\nhttp://kitsunenoir.com/blog/2008/12/10/the-desktop-wallpaper-project-featuring-adrian-fleet/\n-s" } ] } ] }