Abaia and the undines The Urth list — 139 messages, 20 voices, 05 Dec 2008 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5266 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== David Stockhoff — 05 Dec 2008, 23:12 I don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the undines. Does anyone "know" or care to guess? IIRC, Baldanders seems to think they evolved for a watery future, which may be true. A related question is why they are necessarily or assumed to be evil. I've been moving away from a perverted-Christ interpretation (though that aspect can never be dismissed) since that discussion began (for example, I see no reason to assume that the Hierogrammates/Hierodules really work for the Increate at all, or do his bidding, or that the Increate caused the Flood any more than God causes the deaths of puppies). The only straw I have to clutch at is that they are basically water elementals. In the Seven Worlds cosmology, things are just the way they are, as in folklore. So, for example, don't trust the wood fairies, but run from the water fairies, and stay away from giants, etc. Just as fairies have their own plans that don't really involve us (see John Crowley's Little, Big), the Hieros do what they do without much interest in human morality, and the undines even less so. Several months ago, there was a discussion about what the New Sun would do to the undines. Clearly they are alive and well on Ushas, whether Abais himself survived or not. But they would have vanished utterly in Master Ash's timeline except for the small ones who could escape (like Idas). So why would they oppose Severian at all? Or was it rather the Commonwealth they opposed, perhaps as the heirs of Typhon and the first empire? You'd think thet'd want the New Sun to come and bring the Clean Slate with lots of water on the side. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jordon Flato — 06 Dec 2008, 00:05 in reply to David Stockhoff Hmmmm. As to why they would want to stop Severian, I can only think that one of the stated reasons that these massive giants don't just wipe out everyone themselves is that they are more interested in enslaving humanity, not destroying it. Hence, a flood that destroys Humanity pretty much leaves them where they already were...i.e. with a bunch of fun Undines to play with, but not much else. So, I would think they want to capture decaying humanity for their own purposes. The fact that decaying humanity is wiped from the Urth means they having nothing left to do, I suppose. All the best toys would be gone! And I'm not going to weigh in on the Christ thing again....of fuck it, why not! If it is not meant to have any resonance with the idea of there being some sort of Increate involved here, then Wolfe need never have done things like turn water into wine. The Hiero's didn't do that. It doesn't really make a ton of sense for the 'claw' to do it, but it certainly has some special resonance vis a vis a certain past messiah, right? There are lots of examples like that, which aren't things 'created' by the Undines or the Hierdules, but are things that happen to Sev on his journey. Are these all red herrings by Wolfe to throw us off the course? Could be. That would be a poor interpretation in my book, but then again, it's our book, not my book, isn't it! > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:12 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: > I don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the undines. > Does anyone "know" or care to guess? IIRC, Baldanders seems to think they > evolved for a watery future, which may be true. > > A related question is why they are necessarily or assumed to be evil. I've > been moving away from a perverted-Christ interpretation (though that aspect > can never be dismissed) since that discussion began (for example, I see no > reason to assume that the Hierogrammates/Hierodules really work for the > Increate at all, or do his bidding, or that the Increate caused the Flood > any more than God causes the deaths of puppies). > > The only straw I have to clutch at is that they are basically water > elementals. In the Seven Worlds cosmology, things are just the way they are, > as in folklore. So, for example, don't trust the wood fairies, but run from > the water fairies, and stay away from giants, etc. Just as fairies have > their own plans that don't really involve us (see John Crowley's Little, > Big), the Hieros do what they do without much interest in human morality, > and the undines even less so. > > Several months ago, there was a discussion about what the New Sun would do > to the undines. Clearly they are alive and well on Ushas, whether Abais > himself survived or not. But they would have vanished utterly in Master > Ash's timeline except for the small ones who could escape (like Idas). > > So why would they oppose Severian at all? Or was it rather the Commonwealth > they opposed, perhaps as the heirs of Typhon and the first empire? You'd > think thet'd want the New Sun to come and bring the Clean Slate with lots of > water on the side. > > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 081204-0, 12/04/2008 > Tested on: 12/5/2008 6:12:33 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 06 Dec 2008, 00:16 follows, by subject match Jordon Flato > for example, I see no reason to assume that the Hierogrammates/Hierodules > really work for the Increate at all, or do his bidding, or that the > Increate caused the Flood any more than God causes the deaths of puppies). What I find HARD to swallow, is the idea that a devout Catholic, a self-proclaimed "Catholic Author", would write a sprawling Messianic tale about Death & Resurrection which had it's ultimate point that everything that seemed to be the Work of God was just a bunch of selfish manipulation by charlatanes. That is the most preposterous idea I've seen yet in conjunction with this work. Does anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of Christian symbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say "sucker, you're faith is all a lie"? I have to say, it's not a compelling reading. ~sonofwitz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 06 Dec 2008, 02:38 follows, by subject match Son of Witz Yes, that is a difficult interpretation to accept, on many levels. It's unsatisfying to me, too---an atheist---even more than it would be in any other kind of story. I don't suggest it. On the other hand, God DOESN'T cause the deaths of puppies, does he? We cause our own pain and each other's. So couldn't it be true that selfish manipulation by charlatans carries out the Work of God anyway---or even that it ALWAYS gets carried out DESPITE their manipulations? The sticking point is what kind of Work is worth (or worth overlooking) such atrocities. John's link will take you right into a discussion of exactly that. I don't know the answer. The Manvantara scheme sounds pretty mechanistic and pointless to me too, unless I missed something. It almost seems to propose a "hungry universe"---that the universe is just plain hungry, generating and destroying life like a cosmic woodchipper. This idea is closer to what most mythologies assume than it is to any Christian universe. All the astronomer societies believed that deep time crushes humanity repeatedly, on a vast scale. You'd think the Increate would offer some escape from this if he is God. Maybe he isn't. Maybe he does. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:16:57 +0000 > From: "Son of Witz" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > for example, I see no reason to assume that the Hierogrammates/Hierodules > > really work for the Increate at all, or do his bidding, or that the > > Increate caused the Flood any more than God causes the deaths of puppies). > > > > What I find HARD to swallow, is the idea that a devout Catholic, a self-proclaimed "Catholic Author", would write a sprawling Messianic tale about Death & Resurrection which had it's ultimate point that everything that seemed to be the Work of God was just a bunch of selfish manipulation by charlatanes. > > That is the most preposterous idea I've seen yet in conjunction with this work. > > Does anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of Christian symbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say "sucker, you're faith is all a lie"? > > I have to say, it's not a compelling reading. > > ~sonofwitz > > > > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 06 Dec 2008, 02:45 in reply to David Stockhoff God is omniscient and omnipotent. What occurs is the will of God. What is not the will of God does not occur. That's it. It's truly amazing to me how people complicate this. . > Yes, that is a difficult interpretation to accept, on many levels. It's > unsatisfying to me, too---an atheist---even more than it would be in any > other kind of story. I don't suggest it. > > On the other hand, God DOESN'T cause the deaths of puppies, does he? We > cause our own pain and each other's. So couldn't it be true that selfish > manipulation by charlatans carries out the Work of God anyway---or even > that it ALWAYS gets carried out DESPITE their manipulations? > > The sticking point is what kind of Work is worth (or worth overlooking) > such atrocities. John's link will take you right into a discussion of > exactly that. I don't know the answer. > > The Manvantara scheme sounds pretty mechanistic and pointless to me too, > unless I missed something. It almost seems to propose a "hungry > universe"---that the universe is just plain hungry, generating and > destroying life like a cosmic woodchipper. This idea is closer to what > most mythologies assume than it is to any Christian universe. All the > astronomer societies believed that deep time crushes humanity repeatedly, > on a vast scale. > > You'd think the Increate would offer some escape from this if he is God. > Maybe he isn't. Maybe he does. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:16:57 +0000 > From: "Son of Witz" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > for example, I see no reason to assume that the > > > Hierogrammates/Hierodules > > > really work for the Increate at all, or do his bidding, or that the > > > Increate caused the Flood any more than God causes the deaths of > > > puppies). > What I find HARD to swallow, is the idea that a devout Catholic, a > self-proclaimed "Catholic Author", would write a sprawling Messianic tale > about Death & Resurrection which had it's ultimate point that everything > that seemed to be the Work of God was just a bunch of selfish manipulation > by charlatanes. > > That is the most preposterous idea I've seen yet in conjunction with this > work. > > Does anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of > Christian symbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say > "sucker, you're faith is all a lie"? > > I have to say, it's not a compelling reading. > > ~sonofwitz > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 081205-0, 12/05/2008 > Tested on: 12/5/2008 9:38:54 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 06 Dec 2008, 03:00 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > On Dec 5, 2008, at 6:45 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > God is omniscient and omnipotent. > > What occurs is the will of God. > > What is not the will of God does not occur. > > That's it. > > It's truly amazing to me how people complicate this. i don't relate to the standard question, "why does God allow evil?" either. it just HAS to BE. look at the yin yang symbol as another basic, perfect symbol of it. it's NOT the duality of it. it's the dance. sounds trite, but it's true. and WHO are WE to judge? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Watkins — 06 Dec 2008, 03:16 in reply to brunians at brunians.org I don't think that's quite right. What occurs occurs by the will of God. I.e., He created all that is, and possesses mastery--He could at any time and in any matter intervene decisively. It does not follow (or at least, so Christians say) that what occurs occurs in accordance to the will of God. Of course, many are persuaded that the problem of evil is intractable--that this distinction is without meaning. I take it that Wolfe is not among them. > On 12/5/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > God is omniscient and omnipotent. > > What occurs is the will of God. > > What is not the will of God does not occur. > > That's it. > > It's truly amazing to me how people complicate this. > > > > > . > > Yes, that is a difficult interpretation to accept, on many levels. It's > > unsatisfying to me, too---an atheist---even more than it would be in any > > other kind of story. I don't suggest it. > > > > On the other hand, God DOESN'T cause the deaths of puppies, does he? We > > cause our own pain and each other's. So couldn't it be true that selfish > > manipulation by charlatans carries out the Work of God anyway---or even > > that it ALWAYS gets carried out DESPITE their manipulations? > > > > The sticking point is what kind of Work is worth (or worth overlooking) > > such atrocities. John's link will take you right into a discussion of > > exactly that. I don't know the answer. > > > > The Manvantara scheme sounds pretty mechanistic and pointless to me too, > > unless I missed something. It almost seems to propose a "hungry > > universe"---that the universe is just plain hungry, generating and > > destroying life like a cosmic woodchipper. This idea is closer to what > > most mythologies assume than it is to any Christian universe. All the > > astronomer societies believed that deep time crushes humanity repeatedly, > > on a vast scale. > > > > You'd think the Increate would offer some escape from this if he is God. > > Maybe he isn't. Maybe he does. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 8 > > Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:16:57 +0000 > > From: "Son of Witz" > > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 06 Dec 2008, 03:21 in reply to John Watkins > I don't think that's quite right. > > What occurs occurs by the will of God. I.e., He created all that is, > and possesses mastery--He could at any time and in any matter > intervene decisively. Sometimes He chooses not to. This is an act of will. > It does not follow (or at least, so Christians say) that what occurs > occurs in accordance to the will of God. See above. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ James Wynn — 06 Dec 2008, 03:47 in reply to Son of Witz > Does anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of > Christian > symbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say "sucker, you're > faith is all a lie"? I'd be curious to read a point-by-point detailing of all this supposedly explicit Christian symbolism in "The Book of the New Sun". I'm usually pretty good at this sort of thing. But I don't find it especially overwhelming. I seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe balked giving any place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He explicitly corrected Jordan by stating he was a "Christ-figure". Well, Christ-figures are a dime-a-dozen. Raymond Shaw in "The Manchurian Candidate" is a Christ-figure. Obi-Wan Kenobi is a Christ-figure. Yes, there's the who Mediator thing, but that always struck me as more of the Gnostic symbolism rather than Christian (don't get mad Gnostics, you know what people mean by "Christian"). If I were going to designate Severian/Conciliator as something Biblical, it would probably be Elijah or John the Baptist (who was also Elijah in a sense, so Jesus said) or, better, *Adam*. I meant to ask Wolfe in Chicago--but I completely didn't get around to it, but I did mention it to Nigel--what he would say to someone who stated that his entire Sun cycle of stories is to Gnosticism as The Chronicles of Naria are to Orthodox Christianity. J. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 06 Dec 2008, 04:28 in reply to James Wynn > > On Dec 5, 2008, at 7:47 PM, James Wynn wrote: > > Does anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this > > full of Christian > > symbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say "sucker, > > you're faith is all a lie"? > I'd be curious to read a point-by-point detailing of all this > supposedly explicit Christian symbolism in "The Book of the New > Sun". I'm usually pretty good at this sort of thing. But I don't > find it especially overwhelming. > > I seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe > balked giving any place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He > explicitly corrected Jordan by stating he was a "Christ-figure". > Well, Christ-figures are a dime-a-dozen. Raymond Shaw in "The > Manchurian Candidate" is a Christ-figure. Obi-Wan Kenobi is a Christ- > figure. > > Yes, there's the who Mediator thing, but that always struck me as > more of the Gnostic symbolism rather than Christian (don't get mad > Gnostics, you know what people mean by "Christian"). If I were going > to designate Severian/Conciliator as something Biblical, it would > probably be Elijah or John the Baptist (who was also Elijah in a > sense, so Jesus said) or, better, *Adam*. > > I meant to ask Wolfe in Chicago--but I completely didn't get around > to it, but I did mention it to Nigel--what he would say to someone > who stated that his entire Sun cycle of stories is to Gnosticism as > The Chronicles of Naria are to Orthodox Christianity. > > J. you know, I think my ideas about Christ are severely unorthodox & probably heretical. no point in trying to get this across in a rational way ~witz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 06 Dec 2008, 04:33 in reply to James Wynn > I seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe balked > giving any place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He explicitly > corrected Jordan by stating he was a "Christ-figure". He is, according to Wolfe a manifestation of the Mystical Body of Christ. Perhaps it is more accurate to say that he participates in the Mystical Body of Christ. In Catholicism, the communicant eats the flesh and drinks the blood of Christ. Christ (or bits of Him) thus becomes part of the communicant. The Christian does not and cannot become Christ: Christ is the Unique Incarnation. Christ becomes part of the Christian. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 06 Dec 2008, 04:35 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > On Dec 5, 2008, at 8:33 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > I seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe balked > > giving any place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He explicitly > > corrected Jordan by stating he was a "Christ-figure". > He is, according to Wolfe a manifestation of the Mystical Body of > Christ. > Perhaps it is more accurate to say that he participates in the > Mystical > Body of Christ. > > In Catholicism, the communicant eats the flesh and drinks the blood of > Christ. Christ (or bits of Him) thus becomes part of the > communicant. The > Christian does not and cannot become Christ: Christ is the Unique > Incarnation. Christ becomes part of the Christian. now we're talking. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 06 Dec 2008, 06:09 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > God is omniscient and omnipotent. > > What occurs is the will of God. > > What is not the will of God does not occur. > > That's it. > > It's truly amazing to me how people complicate this. Which god is this, then? -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ James Wynn — 06 Dec 2008, 06:15 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > > I seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe balked > > giving any place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He explicitly > > corrected Jordan by stating he was a "Christ-figure". > He is, according to Wolfe a manifestation of the Mystical Body of Christ. > Perhaps it is more accurate to say that he participates in the Mystical > Body of Christ. > > In Catholicism, the communicant eats the flesh and drinks the blood of > Christ. Christ (or bits of Him) thus becomes part of the communicant. The > Christian does not and cannot become Christ: Christ is the Unique > Incarnation. Christ becomes part of the Christian. So you're saying he's a Christian, not a Christ. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Craig Brewer — 06 Dec 2008, 06:35 in reply to James Wynn > Does anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of Christian > symbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say "sucker, you're faith is all a lie"? There's an interview where Wolfe says that he was obviously concerned with "working out" some of his beliefs as a Catholic. But I don't see why "working out" can't mean giving a fictional account of, say, a monstrous version of what you believe in order to clarify it by contrast. The alzabo/eucharist is a case in point: there we're given an incredibly ambiguous version of communion which is an ongoing "what if" take on communion throughout the whole book: "what if" it were literally becoming another (non-divine) person? In that case, Severian achieves a union with Thecla he never could otherwise, but it's also something he struggles with throughout the books, suffering identity crises, revulsion at the corruption of traditional "union" (as well as simple disgust towards cannibalism), etc. In fact, to me, so much of the emotional impact of Severian's Thecla-ness comes as a result of its being a corruption of a more holy kind of communion. There's a beautiful tragedy inherent in it. So why couldn't New Sun be a story of a corrupted second coming? Why couldn't it be a story about all the ugliness inherent when ultimately worldly, material powers try to act out a sacred myth? To me, that makes Severian the Sleeper seem particularly compelling: the Conciliator's true mediation is still sleeping, waiting for further and better expressions/incarnations in later times, other words, etc. After all...didn't "Wolfe" find this "manuscript" as if it was written in our "far" past. Maybe telling a story now about a Christ figure that didn't live up to Christ makes the real Christ all the more wonderful? Maybe. I'm not convinced that any of that's what IS going on, but I think it's certainly a reasonable option. Just because Wolfe professes his faith openly doesn't restrict his freedom to write imaginative fiction that, in the end, may not line up with doctrine. In fact, as someone who apparently seems like an very thoughtful and inquisitive believer, I wouldn't be surprised if much of his fiction is as much exploratory as it is orthodox. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 06 Dec 2008, 07:25 in reply to James Wynn > > > I seem to recall that in an interview with James Jordan, Wolfe balked > > > giving any place to Severian a stand-in for Christ. He explicitly > > > corrected Jordan by stating he was a "Christ-figure". > > He is, according to Wolfe a manifestation of the Mystical Body of > > Christ. Perhaps it is more accurate to say that he participates in the > > Mystical Body of Christ. > > In Catholicism, the communicant eats the flesh and drinks the blood of > > Christ. Christ (or bits of Him) thus becomes part of the communicant. > > The Christian does not and cannot become Christ: Christ is the Unique > > Incarnation. Christ becomes part of the Christian. > So you're saying he's a Christian, not a Christ. That is indeed what I am saying. And I feel that I am on safe ground here, as Gene Wolfe has said the same thing on more than one occasion. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew Keeley — 06 Dec 2008, 07:27 in reply to Craig Brewer On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 1:35 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:> There's an interview where Wolfe says that he was obviously concerned with "working out" some of his beliefs as a Catholic. But I don't see why "working out" can't mean giving a fictional account of, say, a monstrous version of what you believe in order to clarify it by contrast. The alzabo/eucharist is a case in point: there we're given an incredibly ambiguous version of communion which is an ongoing "what if" take on communion throughout the whole book: "what if" it were literally becoming another (non-divine) person? In that case, Severian achieves a union with Thecla he never could otherwise, but it's also something he struggles with throughout the books, suffering identity crises, revulsion at the corruption of traditional "union" (as well as simple disgust towards cannibalism), etc. In fact, to me, so much of the emotional impact of Severian's Thecla-ness comes as a result of its being a corruption of a more holy kind of communion. There's a > beautiful tragedy inherent in it. Agreed. Though I'd point out that it's the results that are ambiguous, not the process. I mean, the description of Thecla's corpse is horrific, as parts of her have apparently been roasted, she's probably been gutted, etc. I believe Severian states he hopes never to see her in this world again? In any case, the eating Thecla scene is one of the most disturbing things I've ever read, one of Wolfe's best moments as a writer. Contrast with eating the autarch - it's done off-camera, and is presumably much more "natural" - Severian and the autarch don't try and pretty it up or prepare the "meal" - Sev just eats the autarch's brain. Wolfe is a Catholic, but I think he wants us to remember how unpleasant and how physical Christianity is. The crucifixion was a bloody, horrible event, as are martyrdoms, etc. Vodalus' "communion" tries to deny death - Sev takes Thecla's body, but her corpse is done up to look appealing. It's metaphorically (and perhaps literally?) bloodless. -Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew Keeley — 06 Dec 2008, 07:30 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 2:25 AM, wrote: > > That is indeed what I am saying. > > And I feel that I am on safe ground here, as Gene Wolfe has said the same > thing on more than one occasion. The more Wolfe I read, the more I wonder if "Gene Wolfe" isn't another one of his unreliable narrators... Though I agree on this one. I suppose it's natural for a Christian to take on some of the attributes of Christ. Wolfe loves stories of imitators coming to resemble the imitated. Of course, Sev isn't intentionally imitating Christ... It's unconscious on his part and conscious on Wolfe's? -Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 06 Dec 2008, 18:02 in reply to Craig Brewer > > On Dec 5, 2008, at 10:35 PM, Craig Brewer wrote: > > Does anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this > > full of Christian > > symbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say "sucker, > > you're faith is all a lie"? > There's an interview where Wolfe says that he was obviously > concerned with "working out" some of his beliefs as a Catholic. But > I don't see why "working out" can't mean giving a fictional account > of, say, a monstrous version of what you believe in order to clarify > it by contrast. The alzabo/eucharist is a case in point: there we're > given an incredibly ambiguous version of communion which is an > ongoing "what if" take on communion throughout the whole book: "what > if" it were literally becoming another (non-divine) person? In that > case, Severian achieves a union with Thecla he never could > otherwise, but it's also something he struggles with throughout the > books, suffering identity crises, revulsion at the corruption of > traditional "union" (as well as simple disgust towards cannibalism), > etc. In fact, to me, so much of the emotional impact of Severian's > Thecla-ness comes as a result of its being a corruption of a more > holy kind of communion. There's a > beautiful tragedy inherent in it. > > So why couldn't New Sun be a story of a corrupted second coming? Why > couldn't it be a story about all the ugliness inherent when > ultimately worldly, material powers try to act out a sacred myth? > To me, that makes Severian the Sleeper seem particularly compelling: > the Conciliator's true mediation is still sleeping, waiting for > further and better expressions/incarnations in later times, other > words, etc. After all...didn't "Wolfe" find this "manuscript" as if > it was written in our "far" past. Maybe telling a story now about a > Christ figure that didn't live up to Christ makes the real Christ > all the more wonderful? > > Maybe. I'm not convinced that any of that's what IS going on, but I > think it's certainly a reasonable option. > > Just because Wolfe professes his faith openly doesn't restrict his > freedom to write imaginative fiction that, in the end, may not line > up with doctrine. In fact, as someone who apparently seems like an > very thoughtful and inquisitive believer, I wouldn't be surprised if > much of his fiction is as much exploratory as it is orthodox. I agree, and it is a valid reading, and to not acknowledge that the text suggests it is to miss the boat to some degree. but on the flip side, to not acknowledge the potential that it could all be the workings of the Increate, and that the text supports that reading, is to also miss the boat. One of the key things here is doubt. and neither BotNS, or say, the Bible, prove anything beyond a doubt. I think what Wolfe has done with the ambiguity here is key. What we make of this mythical territory is personal to our souls and psyche. I think we can all probably agree that Wolfe has written a messianic tale using warped reflections of solar deity myths - such as Christ's and including others- to explore the nature of Death and Resurrection and mankinds's relationship to 'higher' powers. He's given us a question, not an answer, which is why we're here 20 odd years after the fact still arguing over these basic facets of the work. Realizing this will help me make my own fiction more interesting. Instead of trying to answer anything, I'll just ask questions and not try to know the answers myself. Its much more fertile territory this way. It's focusing my attention on the fact that these are the sorts of stories that stick with me, the ones where you could argue the meaning many ways. A recent film example of this would be Pan's Labyrinth. Whether you see the ending as positive or negative is up to you. the film provides enough fodder for either (and other) takes. Yet, again, to deny that either view is valid is to not see the whole picture very well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew Keeley — 06 Dec 2008, 18:11 in reply to Son of Witz > On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Son of Witz wrote: > > A recent film example of this would be Pan's Labyrinth. Whether you see the ending as > positive or negative is up to you. the film provides enough fodder for > either (and other) takes. Yet, again, to deny that either view is valid is > to not see the whole picture very well. Not to go too off-topic, but have you seen The Devil's Backbone? It's one of del Toro's earlier films, and I think much more morally and thematically interesting than Pan's Labyrinth. The plots also tie together in a slight way... -Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 07 Dec 2008, 19:39 follows, by subject match Jeff Wilson Oh, well, it's all settled then. We can stop discussing it and writers can stop writing about it. Any further questions should be suppressed. Literature is dead. Burn your copies of Boethius. Thanks, brunians! > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:45:35 -0500 (EST) > From: brunians at brunians.org > Subject: (urth) The Will Of God > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: <11112.67.142.130.13.1228531535.squirrel at brunians.org> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > God is omniscient and omnipotent. > > What occurs is the will of God. > > What is not the will of God does not occur. > > That's it. > > It's truly amazing to me how people complicate this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 07 Dec 2008, 19:46 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff Sure, but so what? How does that help explain anything in TBotNS? No one has questioned that there is evil---I have said that Wolfe clearly believes it is real. The question is to what extent "actors" think they are doing evil and doing good vs to what extent they are actually doing either, and how that fits into this will of God---which, by the way, is inaccessible to us. If it were accessible, it would be known. If it were known, it would be both acted upon and resisted. Do the Hierogrammates know the will of God? > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:00:16 -0800 > From: Son of Witz > Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <05E02316-317D-4B1E-994F-BBBFD5FE3ABA at butcherbaker.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > > On Dec 5, 2008, at 6:45 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > God is omniscient and omnipotent. > > > > What occurs is the will of God. > > > > What is not the will of God does not occur. > > > > That's it. > > > > It's truly amazing to me how people complicate this. > > > > > i don't relate to the standard question, "why does God allow evil?" > either. > > it just HAS to BE. > > look at the yin yang symbol as another basic, perfect symbol of it. > > it's NOT the duality of it. > it's the dance. > > sounds trite, but it's true. > > and WHO are WE to judge? > > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Watkins — 07 Dec 2008, 20:02 in reply to David Stockhoff I think it is clear that the Hierogrammates do not know the will of God. What is less clear to me is: 1) Are the pieties of the Hierodules, Hierarchs, and Hierogrammates sincere? I take is that there is truth mixed with falsehood, but I can't tell where one ends and the other begins. 2) Do the Hierogrammates ultimately bring about the will of God? I want to say that they do. I do not know how, in the text, this occurs, unless it really is through time-travelling protagonists from later series. > On 12/7/08, David Stockhoff wrote: > > Sure, but so what? How does that help explain anything in TBotNS? No one has > questioned that there is evil---I have said that Wolfe clearly believes it > is real. The question is to what extent "actors" think they are doing evil > and doing good vs to what extent they are actually doing either, and how > that fits into this will of God---which, by the way, is inaccessible to us. > > If it were accessible, it would be known. If it were known, it would be both > acted upon and resisted. Do the Hierogrammates know the will of God? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:00:16 -0800 > From: Son of Witz > Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <05E02316-317D-4B1E-994F-BBBFD5FE3ABA at butcherbaker.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > > On Dec 5, 2008, at 6:45 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > God is omniscient and omnipotent. > > > > > > What occurs is the will of God. > > > > > > What is not the will of God does not occur. > > > > > > That's it. > > > > > > It's truly amazing to me how people complicate this. > i don't relate to the standard question, "why does God allow evil?" > either. > > it just HAS to BE. > > look at the yin yang symbol as another basic, perfect symbol of it. > > it's NOT the duality of it. > it's the dance. > > sounds trite, but it's true. > > and WHO are WE to judge? > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 081206-0, 12/06/2008 > Tested on: 12/7/2008 2:46:12 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 07 Dec 2008, 20:19 follows, by subject match Matthew Keeley Craig, all that is very well said and very much in line with the conclusions I have been groping toward. I agree that Wolfe is inquisitive and his writing is exploratory. He asks questions without necessarily answering them---and the basic speculative-fictional question is "what if"? I think that some posters here assume that "Christian symbolism" means something straightforward and orthodox; someone used the word "explicit." But that's the wrong idea. In a sense, Wolfe is being deliberately blasphemous, especially if you accept the evidence of Severian's serial incest along with his parody of Christ. He's a parody of a god, really, not too different from the gods of the Whorl or ancient Greece. Certain events are plainly analogous to communion, but I never knew what to do with that. (I also like a previous post about Severian being a manifestation of the Body of Christ---I don't know what that means, but it sounds right.) We know that Wolfe inverts and perverts myth of all kinds, and I think we can assume he is quite knowledgeable about the various strains of Christianity that preceded the Catholic version. The more you know about that history, the less you take for granted. (I have always especially found Gnosticism fascinating, perhaps because it strikes me as a version of Christianity for very unsentimental and skeptical---even paranoid---people. I can relate, because regular Christianity has always made me feel like I was being fed a line, and an overly sweetened one at that. Wolfe is never sweet.) > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:35:06 -0800 (PST) > From: Craig Brewer > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <319891.68655.qm at web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Does anyone thing a Believer in Christ would write a story this full of Christian > > symbolism just to yank the rug out from under you and say "sucker, you're faith is all a lie"? > > > There's an interview where Wolfe says that he was obviously concerned with "working out" some of his beliefs as a Catholic. But I don't see why "working out" can't mean giving a fictional account of, say, a monstrous version of what you believe in order to clarify it by contrast. The alzabo/eucharist is a case in point: there we're given an incredibly ambiguous version of communion which is an ongoing "what if" take on communion throughout the whole book: "what if" it were literally becoming another (non-divine) person? In that case, Severian achieves a union with Thecla he never could otherwise, but it's also something he struggles with throughout the books, suffering identity crises, revulsion at the corruption of traditional "union" (as well as simple disgust towards cannibalism), etc. In fact, to me, so much of the emotional impact of Severian's Thecla-ness comes as a result of its being a corruption of a more holy kind of communion. There's a > beautiful tragedy inherent in it. > > So why couldn't New Sun be a story of a corrupted second coming? Why couldn't it be a story about all the ugliness inherent when ultimately worldly, material powers try to act out a sacred myth? To me, that makes Severian the Sleeper seem particularly compelling: the Conciliator's true mediation is still sleeping, waiting for further and better expressions/incarnations in later times, other words, etc. After all...didn't "Wolfe" find this "manuscript" as if it was written in our "far" past. Maybe telling a story now about a Christ figure that didn't live up to Christ makes the real Christ all the more wonderful? > > Maybe. I'm not convinced that any of that's what IS going on, but I think it's certainly a reasonable option. > > Just because Wolfe professes his faith openly doesn't restrict his freedom to write imaginative fiction that, in the end, may not line up with doctrine. In fact, as someone who apparently seems like an very thoughtful and inquisitive believer, I wouldn't be surprised if much of his fiction is as much exploratory as it is orthodox. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 07 Dec 2008, 20:40 follows, by subject match John Watkins Exactly. I meant also to ask, Do Abaia and his lords perceive the will of the Increate? Presumably they do not, any more than the Hierogrammates do. But they seem to try to resist it rather than carry it out, at least until Severian comes along. Because their motivations are unclear beyond the desire to enslave humanity, it's hard to figure out whether they guess right about the Increate or not. If they ARE on the wrong side, is it because they guessed right or guessed wrong? As an idle aside: It occurs to me that a Protestant view of the Hieros (all of them) would be to mistrust them completely. They stand between us and the Increate, pretending or seeming to represent him or what he wants. And they are all corrupt.(The extent to which they actually claim this status can be argued.) > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:02:09 -0500 > From: "John Watkins" > Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: > <93d4039f0812071202i48475888k496b8fde9f0a96a9 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I think it is clear that the Hierogrammates do not know the will of > God. What is less clear to me is: > > 1) Are the pieties of the Hierodules, Hierarchs, and Hierogrammates > sincere? I take is that there is truth mixed with falsehood, but I > can't tell where one ends and the other begins. > > 2) Do the Hierogrammates ultimately bring about the will of God? I > want to say that they do. I do not know how, in the text, this occurs, > unless it really is through time-travelling protagonists from later > series. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 07 Dec 2008, 21:32 in reply to David Stockhoff Individual entities may or may not know the will of God. This does not stop them from doing the will of God. Nothing happens save by the will of God. God, will, occurred, did not occur: these are terms. 'God' means the (presumed) omniscient, omnipotent ruler of the world. You may or may not believe that such a thing exists. This is immaterial: that is the definition of the term. Will is a deliberate act. I am going to assume that everyone here knows what it means to say that something did occurred or that something may have occurred but did not in fact occur. Assuming that there is an omniscient, omnipotent ruler of the world, everything that occurs is in accordance with said ruler's will: either He wills it to occur, or he chooses not to prevent it. So once something has occurred, you can look back and say "that was the Will of God". Before it occurs, you don't know. ___ Q Are there more live people or dead people? A There are more live people. Dead people are not. . > Exactly. > > I meant also to ask, Do Abaia and his lords perceive the will of the > Increate? Presumably they do not, any more than the Hierogrammates do. But > they seem to try to resist it rather than carry it out, at least until > Severian comes along. Because their motivations are unclear beyond the > desire to enslave humanity, it's hard to figure out whether they guess > right about the Increate or not. If they ARE on the wrong side, is it > because they guessed right or guessed wrong? > > As an idle aside: It occurs to me that a Protestant view of the Hieros > (all of them) would be to mistrust them completely. They stand between us > and the Increate, pretending or seeming to represent him or what he wants. > And they are all corrupt.(The extent to which they actually claim this > status can be argued.) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:02:09 -0500 > From: "John Watkins" > Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 07 Dec 2008, 22:47 follows, by subject match brunians at brunians.org Ah, but you said, "That's it." As in, it's that simple. Now you're saying it's not that simple: "either He wills it to occur, or he chooses not to prevent it." This seems like a huge distinction to me. Creating a big enough space to fit a four-volume novel or three, maybe. Anyway, we can't ever know which is which, but we can speculate. Especially since the actual topic here is not God's actual will, but a mere novel depicting such events. (For the same reason, I'd say "occur" vs "not occur" is pretty well useless in analyzing TbotNS. We have only "Severian said it occurred." And even within that category, can something occur and then become something that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but certainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative timelines. I mean something more than "I thought it occurred, but then I found out it didn't.") > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:32:45 -0500 (EST) > From: brunians at brunians.org > Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: <7205.67.142.130.26.1228685565.squirrel at brunians.org> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > Individual entities may or may not know the will of God. This does not > stop them from doing the will of God. Nothing happens save by the will of > God. > > God, will, occurred, did not occur: these are terms. > > 'God' means the (presumed) omniscient, omnipotent ruler of the world. You > may or may not believe that such a thing exists. This is immaterial: that > is the definition of the term. > > Will is a deliberate act. > > I am going to assume that everyone here knows what it means to say that > something did occurred or that something may have occurred but did not in > fact occur. > > Assuming that there is an omniscient, omnipotent ruler of the world, > everything that occurs is in accordance with said ruler's will: either He > wills it to occur, or he chooses not to prevent it. > > So once something has occurred, you can look back and say "that was the > Will of God". Before it occurs, you don't know. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 07 Dec 2008, 23:11 in reply to David Stockhoff > And even within that category, can something occur and then become > something that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but > certainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative > timelines. I mean something more than "I thought it occurred, but then I > found out it didn't.") I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Craig Brewer — 07 Dec 2008, 23:20 in reply to brunians at brunians.org The one thing that's bothered me about multiple timelines is that it only makes any difference if you can actually move between them. That's great for stories where that happens, but even if it is true, if "I" only exist and ever will exist in one timeline, then all the rest might as well not exist. In other words, the idea of multiple timelines only really becomes speculatively interesting if time travel is a real possibility. Otherwise, the answer to "what if there are multiple timelines?" is, for all pratical purposes, "It doesn't matter." Of course, within speculative fiction, all kinds of great stuff can come from the idea. But when it becomes an actual metaphysical speculation, I just don't really know what to do with it. ----- Original Message ---- > From: "brunians at brunians.org" > To: The Urth Mailing List > Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 5:11:37 PM > Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God > And even within that category, can something occur and then become > something that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but > certainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative > timelines. I mean something more than "I thought it occurred, but then I > found out it didn't.") I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 07 Dec 2008, 23:34 in reply to Craig Brewer > The one thing that's bothered me about multiple timelines is that it only > makes any difference if you can actually move between them. That's great > for stories where that happens, but even if it is true, if "I" only exist > and ever will exist in one timeline, then all the rest might as well not > exist. > In other words, the idea of multiple timelines only really becomes > speculatively interesting if time travel is a real possibility. Otherwise, > the answer to "what if there are multiple timelines?" is, for all pratical > purposes, "It doesn't matter." > Of course, within speculative fiction, all kinds of great stuff can come > from the idea. But when it becomes an actual metaphysical speculation, I > just don't really know what to do with it. Well! It's hard to say what's real and what's not real in these matters, but there are known methods for both moving from one timeline to another and for perceiving what is happening in other ones, which involve the use of various drugs and other magickal techniques. Anyway, I am personally convinced of the reality of multiple timelines due to various experiences that I have had. If you have not had these or similar experiences, it is no surprise to me that you are skeptical: that is a reasonable attitude to have. It's like telepathy or bilocation or any of that stuff: if you experience it, it is real to you. I don't know if time *travel* is possible. I believe that seeing other times is possible, with the same caveats as above. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 08 Dec 2008, 08:21 in reply to David Stockhoff > David Stockhoff wrote: > > Sure, but so what? How does that help explain anything in TBotNS? No one has questioned that there is evil---I have said that Wolfe clearly believes it is real. The question is to what extent "actors" think they are doing evil and doing good vs to what extent they are actually doing either, and how that fits into this will of God---which, by the way, is inaccessible to us. > > If it were accessible, it would be known. If it were known, it would be both acted upon and resisted. Do the Hierogrammates know the will of God? They might have superior knowledge of God's will if their superior preception in time and space includes divine interventions like the literal words and deeds of our cycle's Christ, Moses receiving the Commandments, any of Abraham's numerous audiences with God, and those yet to come in our timeline, like Judgment Day. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 08 Dec 2008, 08:28 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > And even within that category, can something occur and then become > > something that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but > > certainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative > > timelines. I mean something more than "I thought it occurred, but then I > > found out it didn't.") > I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist. Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One? -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 08:32 in reply to Jeff Wilson > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > And even within that category, can something occur and then become > > > something that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but > > > certainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative > > > timelines. I mean something more than "I thought it occurred, but then > > > I found out it didn't.") > > I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist. > Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One? The latter, of course. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 08 Dec 2008, 08:54 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > > And even within that category, can something occur and then become > > > > something that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but > > > > certainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative > > > > timelines. I mean something more than "I thought it occurred, but then > > > > I found out it didn't.") > > > I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist. > > Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One? > The latter, of course. Is the tree of alternatives fully populated? -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 09:30 in reply to Jeff Wilson > > > > I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist. > > > Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One? > > The latter, of course. > Is the tree of alternatives fully populated? I am not sure that I understand you. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Duffy — 08 Dec 2008, 09:39 in reply to Jeff Wilson > On Mon, 8 Dec 2008, Jeff Wilson wrote: > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > > I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist. > > > Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One? > > The latter, of course. > Is the tree of alternatives fully populated? Yes, but proportionately to one's net good and evil ;) -- | David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\ | email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / * | Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \_,-._/ | 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dave Tallman — 08 Dec 2008, 12:16 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > > > > > Brunians wrote: > > > > > / I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist. > / > / Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One? > / > / The latter, of course. > / > / Is the tree of alternatives fully populated? > / > I am not sure that I understand you. > It seems a bit contradictory to the concept of "the will of God" that God would allow timelines in which every possible thing happens. It would follow from what you said before that every possible thing is the will of God. Have you read Niven's "All the Myriad Ways"? It takes the multiple worlds concept to just such a depressing moral conclusion. People who are contemplating murder, rape, or suicide ask themselves -- "Why not? It's going to happen somewhere." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 12:30 in reply to Dave Tallman Well, that's how I look at the World, and how I think it is arranged. You are free to come up with ideas that suit you better. . > Brunians wrote: > > > > > > / I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines > > > > > > exist. > > / > > / Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One? > > / > > / The latter, of course. > > / > > / Is the tree of alternatives fully populated? > > / > > I am not sure that I understand you. > It seems a bit contradictory to the concept of "the will of God" that > God would allow timelines in which every possible thing happens. It > would follow from what you said before that every possible thing is the > will of God. > > Have you read Niven's "All the Myriad Ways"? It takes the multiple > worlds concept to just such a depressing moral conclusion. People who > are contemplating murder, rape, or suicide ask themselves -- "Why not? > It's going to happen somewhere." > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 08 Dec 2008, 14:55 follows, by subject match brunians at brunians.org Yes, that's likely to have been intended. It fits with so much else. But I'm thinking primarily of Ash's "future," which is only a possible future from a time before the New Sun, not after. Therefore, it's possible that one could consider it extinct after the New Sun comes. And I think the Hierodules say (in "Urth") that they never met Ash but they did meet the Green Man. So that may suggest that Ash's future is gone. However, the whole idea of the "corridors of time" implies intersections, not just back and forth. Following this, it's possible that the Hierodules, if they are able to move forward in time at all (I never could figure this out), could go back until Ash becomes possible, then go forward to meet him. But (a) they apparently can't and (b) in that scene, they haven't yet come to the point where Ash is possible, so they wouldn't have. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 18:11:37 -0500 (EST) > From: brunians at brunians.org > Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: <5526.67.142.130.22.1228691497.squirrel at brunians.org> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > And even within that category, can something occur and then become > > something that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but > > certainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative > > timelines. I mean something more than "I thought it occurred, but then I > > found out it didn't.") > > > I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist. > > > . > > > > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 08 Dec 2008, 15:06 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff So, superior but not perfect. Yes, you would think that their "higher" perspective is worth something. However, it might equally well be worth nothing. I'm skeptical that knowledge of those particular events is worth anything either. Perhaps this is because I regard them as fictional at best. And the Christian myth has its own share of unreliable narrators. But the issue here is how, then, to identify and analyze a true "divine intervention"---which brings us back to our starting point. Only true miracles could possibly be proof, and then only to eyewitnesses themselves. And no mere reader of Severian can ever be a direct eyewitness. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 02:21:51 -0600 > From: Jeff Wilson > Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <493CD91F.1010802 at io.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > David Stockhoff wrote: > > Sure, but so what? How does that help explain anything in TBotNS? No one has questioned that there is evil---I have said that Wolfe clearly believes it is real. The question is to what extent "actors" think they are doing evil and doing good vs to what extent they are actually doing either, and how that fits into this will of God---which, by the way, is inaccessible to us. > > > > If it were accessible, it would be known. If it were known, it would be both acted upon and resisted. Do the Hierogrammates know the will of God? > > > They might have superior knowledge of God's will if their superior > preception in time and space includes divine interventions like the > literal words and deeds of our cycle's Christ, Moses receiving the > Commandments, any of Abraham's numerous audiences with God, and those > yet to come in our timeline, like Judgment Day. > > -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 08 Dec 2008, 15:26 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff On the other hand, if every possible event is God's will, then the concept of God's will becomes meaningless. It will only matter, after accepting a fully populated tree, whether something is possible, i.e., if there is a branch for it. ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 05:16:28 -0700 From: Dave Tallman Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God To: urth at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <493D101C.9040404 at gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Brunians wrote: > > > > > > > > > > / I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist. > > / > > > > > > > > / Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One? > > / > > > > > > / The latter, of course. > > / > > > > / Is the tree of alternatives fully populated? > > > > / > > I am not sure that I understand you. > > It seems a bit contradictory to the concept of "the will of God" that God would allow timelines in which every possible thing happens. It would follow from what you said before that every possible thing is the will of God. Have you read Niven's "All the Myriad Ways"? It takes the multiple worlds concept to just such a depressing moral conclusion. People who are contemplating murder, rape, or suicide ask themselves -- "Why not? It's going to happen somewhere." ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 16:23 in reply to David Stockhoff > Only true miracles could possibly be proof, and then only to eyewitnesses > themselves. That's a key to this whole thing. I believe what I believe because of some unusual experiences that I have had. If you, not having had these experiences, believed the same way I do, I would have to say that I thought you were being sort of silly. > And no mere reader of Severian can ever be a direct > eyewitness. A-yup. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 16:26 in reply to David Stockhoff > On the other hand, if every possible event is God's will, then the > concept of God's will becomes meaningless. Which event goes in which world is certainly God's will. I find the whole structure very esthetically pleasing, actually. Of course, I really like the Gita.... . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 08 Dec 2008, 16:28 in reply to Jeff Wilson > Jeff Wilson wrote: > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > > > And even within that category, can something occur and then become > > > > > something that has not occurred? I'd say so. Maybe not in TBotNS, but > > > > > certainly in Wolfe and any time you are dealing with alternative > > > > > timelines. I mean something more than "I thought it occurred, but then > > > > > I found out it didn't.") > > > > I solve that problem by assuming that all possible timelines exist. > > > Separate God in each, or One for all and all under One? > > The latter, of course. > Is the tree of alternatives fully populated? That is, Is there a timeline for every possible alternative outcome of every quantum uncertainty? Or is there some more selective criteria? -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 16:38 in reply to Jeff Wilson > > Is the tree of alternatives fully populated? > That is, > Is there a timeline for every possible alternative outcome of every > quantum uncertainty? Or is there some more selective criteria? I don't know: I have no evidence. Either way works for me. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 08 Dec 2008, 16:44 in reply to David Stockhoff > David Stockhoff wrote: > So, superior but not perfect. Yes, you would think that their "higher" perspective is worth something. However, it might equally well be worth nothing. > > I'm skeptical that knowledge of those particular events is worth anything either. Perhaps this is because I regard them as fictional at best. And the Christian myth has its own share of unreliable narrators. > > But the issue here is how, then, to identify and analyze a true "divine intervention"---which brings us back to our starting point. > > Only true miracles could possibly be proof, and then only to eyewitnesses themselves. And no mere reader of Severian can ever be a direct eyewitness. THe Hierogrammates seem to have an improved from of witness in that that absorbed fragments share with the main body and the main body with new fragments. They also demonstarte an ability to direct portals through time and space through which they can speak and observe, and depost people. If an archipelago were to ever identify a miracle in their companion galaxy in Briah, they could all be personal witnesses of it in short order. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 08 Dec 2008, 16:47 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > Only true miracles could possibly be proof, and then only to eyewitnesses > > themselves. > That's a key to this whole thing. > > I believe what I believe because of some unusual experiences that I have > had. If you, not having had these experiences, believed the same way I do, > I would have to say that I thought you were being sort of silly. > > And no mere reader of Severian can ever be a direct > > eyewitness. But an *eater* of Severian could, and the Hierogrammates share memories much like users of the alzabo do, so if one saw the Increate, they all may have. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 08 Dec 2008, 16:50 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > Is the tree of alternatives fully populated? > > That is, > > Is there a timeline for every possible alternative outcome of every > > quantum uncertainty? Or is there some more selective criteria? > I don't know: I have no evidence. > > Either way works for me. Good enough; can you describe anything about the mechanism for viewing or physically shunting to other lines? -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 17:06 in reply to Jeff Wilson > > > Is there a timeline for every possible alternative outcome of every > > > quantum uncertainty? Or is there some more selective criteria? > > I don't know: I have no evidence. > > Either way works for me. > Good enough; can you describe anything about the mechanism for viewing > or physically shunting to other lines? Viewing involves the use of myrrh and physically shunting involves the use of datura. The use of myrrh is relatively safe: you can eat the powdered myrrh, though when I was really getting into it I was using what's called a spiritual sol of myrrh (this is not metaphysical: the 'spiritual' part refers to the fact that you are using 200 proof alcohol for solvent and 'sol' is the root of 'solvent'. I would normally eat a dose of sol and then take a sweat bath wherein I burnt quite a bit of myrrh and white sage as well as smoking bits of cannabis and tobacco. Myrrh is a narcotic and soporific, and what happens is after you get out of the sweat bath you feel pretty woozy and lie down for a while, at which point you go into this sort of dreaming state generically similar to the kind of stuff you get with opiates. When you wake up you will find that you have memories from one or more of the other worlds. Datura is quite dangerous. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Adam Thornton — 08 Dec 2008, 17:24 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > On Dec 8, 2008, at 11:06 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > The use of myrrh is relatively safe: you can eat the powdered myrrh, > though when I was really getting into it I was using what's called a > spiritual sol of myrrh (this is not metaphysical: the 'spiritual' part > refers to the fact that you are using 200 proof alcohol for solvent > and > 'sol' is the root of 'solvent'. > > I would normally eat a dose of sol and then take a sweat bath > wherein I > burnt quite a bit of myrrh and white sage as well as smoking bits of > cannabis and tobacco. One is reminded of: http://www.xkcd.com/353/ Adam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 18:14 in reply to Adam Thornton > > The use of myrrh is relatively safe: you can eat the powdered myrrh, > > though when I was really getting into it I was using what's called a > > spiritual sol of myrrh (this is not metaphysical: the 'spiritual' part > > refers to the fact that you are using 200 proof alcohol for solvent > > and 'sol' is the root of 'solvent'. > > I would normally eat a dose of sol and then take a sweat bath > > wherein I burnt quite a bit of myrrh and white sage as well as smoking > > bits of cannabis and tobacco. > One is reminded of: > http://www.xkcd.com/353/ Why do you say that? . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Adam Thornton — 08 Dec 2008, 18:29 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > On Dec 8, 2008, at 12:14 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > The use of myrrh is relatively safe: you can eat the powdered myrrh, > > > though when I was really getting into it I was using what's called a > > > spiritual sol of myrrh (this is not metaphysical: the 'spiritual' > > > part > > > refers to the fact that you are using 200 proof alcohol for solvent > > > and 'sol' is the root of 'solvent'. > > > I would normally eat a dose of sol and then take a sweat bath > > > wherein I burnt quite a bit of myrrh and white sage as well as > > > smoking > > > bits of cannabis and tobacco. > > One is reminded of: > > http://www.xkcd.com/353/ > Why do you say that? It could be the python, or it could be the medicine cabinet. Myrrh? Grain alcohol? Sativa? Cannabis? Other worlds? import antigravity; Adam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Adam Thornton — 08 Dec 2008, 18:31 in reply to Adam Thornton > On Dec 8, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Adam Thornton wrote: > > Myrrh? Grain alcohol? Sativa? Cannabis? Other worlds? s/tiv/lvi/; Adam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 08 Dec 2008, 19:09 follows, by subject match Adam Thornton Ah, very nicely reasoned, Jeff. Perhaps so. I somehow imagine angels sitting in office buildings on Yesod, layer upon layer of middle management and banks of miracle hotline workers. ;) Associates are standing by for your call! > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:44:19 -0600 > From: Jeff Wilson > Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <493D4EE3.7090307 at io.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > David Stockhoff wrote: > > So, superior but not perfect. Yes, you would think that their "higher" perspective is worth something. However, it might equally well be worth nothing. > > > > I'm skeptical that knowledge of those particular events is worth anything either. Perhaps this is because I regard them as fictional at best. And the Christian myth has its own share of unreliable narrators. > > > > But the issue here is how, then, to identify and analyze a true "divine intervention"---which brings us back to our starting point. > > > > Only true miracles could possibly be proof, and then only to eyewitnesses themselves. And no mere reader of Severian can ever be a direct eyewitness. > > > THe Hierogrammates seem to have an improved from of witness in that that > absorbed fragments share with the main body and the main body with new > fragments. They also demonstarte an ability to direct portals through > time and space through which they can speak and observe, and depost > people. If an archipelago were to ever identify a miracle in their > companion galaxy in Briah, they could all be personal witnesses of it in > short order. > > -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 19:23 in reply to Adam Thornton > > > > I would normally eat a dose of sol and then take a sweat bath > > > > wherein I burnt quite a bit of myrrh and white sage as well as > > > > smoking bits of cannabis and tobacco. > > > One is reminded of: > > > http://www.xkcd.com/353/ > > Why do you say that? > It could be the python, or it could be the medicine cabinet. You mean that it is a hallucination? Of course it is a hallucination. The question is, is there any underlying reality to the hallucination? I think probably yes. But it is impossible to demonstrate either way. It is suggestive that several people have had the same kind of hallucinations by following these instructions. Also, that I am far from the first person who has had the perception that the world is this way. Also, I should add, that these drugs (and the use of drugs in magick generally) are training aids. Many of the perceptions and visions in dreams (in my opinion) come from the other worlds, and learning to navigate and retain memory of dreams is one of the most important exercises. And waking reveries can also be induced. Of course, and in any case, you are entitled to your opinions. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 08 Dec 2008, 19:24 in reply to David Stockhoff > David Stockhoff wrote: > Ah, very nicely reasoned, Jeff. Perhaps so. > > I somehow imagine angels sitting in office buildings on Yesod, layer upon layer of middle management and banks of miracle hotline workers. ;) > > Associates are standing by for your call! Hierogrammate means "holy scribe" , so there must be *some* paperwork and bureaucracy involved. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 19:26 in reply to Adam Thornton > On Dec 8, 2008, at 12:29 PM, Adam Thornton wrote: > > Myrrh? Grain alcohol? Sativa? Cannabis? Other worlds? > s/tiv/lvi/; White sage is a stimulant, not a psychedelic. Not Salvia divinorum. Also, the spirits of wine are used as a solvent to prepare the sol of myrrh. None is consumed. Myrrh is certainly a powerful psychedelic. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 08 Dec 2008, 19:51 follows, by subject match brunians at brunians.org Actually, since powerful thinking machines apparently lie just beneath the surface of the whole Yesod/Hieros/Hierogrammates complex---in a way I do not comprehend---the paperwork would all be digital. The storage capacity would be unthinkable, of course. But are the machines the scribes/slaves, or are those the people who maintain the servers? I admit that I am completely baffled by the natures of both the Hierogrammates and the Hierodules. Too many masks. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:24:34 -0600 > From: Jeff Wilson > Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <493D7472.3080205 at io.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > David Stockhoff wrote: > > Ah, very nicely reasoned, Jeff. Perhaps so. > > > > I somehow imagine angels sitting in office buildings on Yesod, layer upon layer of middle management and banks of miracle hotline workers. ;) > > > > Associates are standing by for your call! > > > > Hierogrammate means "holy scribe" , so there must be *some* paperwork > and bureaucracy involved. > > -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jordon Flato — 08 Dec 2008, 19:59 in reply to David Stockhoff So the big Gnab may just be a horrific extension of the Blue Screen of Death? My guess is that the entire Universe is run on Vista. It would explain a lot in the Urth cycle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 08 Dec 2008, 21:03 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > kind of stuff you get with opiates. When you wake up you will find that > you have memories from one or more of the other worlds. > > Datura is quite dangerous. How is physically traveling different from awakwning with otherworldly memories? -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 21:46 in reply to Jeff Wilson > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > kind of stuff you get with opiates. When you wake up you will find that > > you have memories from one or more of the other worlds. > > Datura is quite dangerous. > How is physically traveling different from awakwning with otherworldly > memories? The memories are not particularly otherworldly. When you move from world to world the worlds are different. Like, for instance, maybe you lived in a house in the world you started from but you do not live in a house in the world you arrive in. You can remember it being different, sort of, but you also have a new set of memories approrpriate to the place you find yourself. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thomas Bitterman — 08 Dec 2008, 22:11 in reply to David Stockhoff > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:12 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: > I don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the undines. > Does anyone "know" or care to guess? Aren't they a band? Enamel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 08 Dec 2008, 22:52 follows, by subject match brunians at brunians.org I've had roughly similar experiences, without myrrh---startlingly vivid "waking dreams" that include mundane but totally "wrong" details. These are sometimes hard to shake off. Most recently, I was sure I had a parakeet. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:46:22 -0500 (EST) From: brunians at brunians.org Subject: Re: (urth) The Will Of God To: "The Urth Mailing List" Message-ID: <2621.67.142.130.35.1228772782.squirrel at brunians.org> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > > kind of stuff you get with opiates. When you wake up you will find that > > > > you have memories from one or more of the other worlds. > > > > Datura is quite dangerous. > > > > How is physically traveling different from awakwning with otherworldly > > memories? The memories are not particularly otherworldly. When you move from world to world the worlds are different. Like, for instance, maybe you lived in a house in the world you started from but you do not live in a house in the world you arrive in. You can remember it being different, sort of, but you also have a new set of memories approrpriate to the place you find yourself. . ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 08 Dec 2008, 23:00 in reply to David Stockhoff Yes. I think I mentioned that drugs in practices like this are by way of being training aids. Did I mention learning to dream, to navigate in and retain your dreams? In dreams and reveries, also, you are in the actions, not remembering them, you can act in the other worlds. The problem with the myrrh and the waking up with two sets of memories is that you can become confused as to which set is the real one. It can get interesting. . > I've had roughly similar experiences, without myrrh---startlingly vivid > "waking dreams" that include mundane but totally "wrong" details. These > are sometimes hard to shake off. Most recently, I was sure I had a > parakeet. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 8 Dec > 2008 16:46:22 -0500 (EST) From: brunians at brunians.org Subject: Re: > (urth) The Will Of God To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: <2621.67.142.130.35.1228772782.squirrel at brunians.org> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > > > kind of stuff you get with opiates. When you wake up you will find > > > > > that > > > > > you have memories from one or more of the other worlds. > > > > > Datura is quite dangerous. > > > How is physically traveling different from awakwning with otherworldly > > > memories? > The memories are not particularly otherworldly. > > When you move from world to world the worlds are different. Like, for > instance, maybe you lived in a house in the world you started from but you > do not live in a house in the world you arrive in. You can remember it > being different, sort of, but you also have a new set of memories > approrpriate to the place you find yourself. > > > . > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 081208-0, 12/08/2008 > Tested on: 12/8/2008 5:52:24 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 09 Dec 2008, 05:13 in reply to Thomas Bitterman > Thomas Bitterman wrote: > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:12 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote: > > I don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the > undines. Does anyone "know" or care to guess? Abaia could be an enormous, ageless leviathan grown from some earlier epoch's premiere thaumaturgist, like Baldanders begins to be during Severian's reign, or it could be something else but still seems to include gigantified beings descended of human stock among its "undine" henchmen. My pet theory is that Ouen's side of the family has undines in the driftwoodpile; this explains several mysteries of the book: Dorcas' awakening when buried underwater, where Severian's sister is (she's Jolenta), Severian's unfailing ability to survive water when his other powers are hit and miss, the ambiguous agression of the undines against the New Sun (they want to turn Severian instead of "wasting" an irreplaceable double agent, they "save" him from Gyoll instead of letting him stay tangled long enough to make it obvious he's an undine-bred), and so forth. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Smith — 09 Dec 2008, 13:26 in reply to Jeff Wilson Isn't Abaia an alien monster from the stars? This is Jonas' story of the black beans: "...others went out in the ships that ply between the stars, returning with treasure and knowledge. In time there returned a woman who had gained nothing among them but a handful of black beans... "...-she displayed the beans to the lords of men, and told them that unless she were obeyed she would cast them into the sea and so put an end to the world. They had her seized and torn to bits, for they were a hundred times more complete in their domination than our Autarch." (Shadow, XXXV) Best wishes, Jack > --- On Tue, 12/9/08, Jeff Wilson wrote: > From: Jeff Wilson > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 12:13 AM > Thomas Bitterman wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:12 PM, David Stockhoff > > > > wrote: > > > > I don't recall reading anything about the > > origin of Abaia and the > > undines. Does anyone "know" or care to > > guess? > Abaia could be an enormous, ageless leviathan grown from > some earlier > epoch's premiere thaumaturgist, like Baldanders begins > to be during > Severian's reign, or it could be something else but > still seems to > include gigantified beings descended of human stock among > its "undine" > henchmen. > > My pet theory is that Ouen's side of the family has > undines in the > driftwoodpile; this explains several mysteries of the book: > Dorcas' > awakening when buried underwater, where Severian's > sister is (she's > Jolenta), Severian's unfailing ability to survive water > when his other > powers are hit and miss, the ambiguous agression of the > undines against > the New Sun (they want to turn Severian instead of > "wasting" an > irreplaceable double agent, they "save" him from > Gyoll instead of > letting him stay tangled long enough to make it obvious > he's an > undine-bred), and so forth. > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com > < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 09 Dec 2008, 19:09 in reply to John Smith > John Smith wrote: > Isn't Abaia an alien monster from the stars? Possibly. Abaia is said to be one of the Great Beasts, but so was Aleister Crowley in his time. The library book _Lives of the Seventeen Megathereians_ implies that many Great Beasts (Mega * Thereians) are human enough to have biographies. Of course, a man can take a beast's name for notoriety, as Typhon did. The Typhon that we meet in the Book is certainly a man, and certainly has designs on the dominating the world, but is not the irresistable force of nature the ancient Greek myths' Typhon was. > This is Jonas' story of the black beans: I can't make more of that than maybe they were quantum black holes that ended up being chucked in the sun instead. Jonah is also our source for the Great Beasts being mountain-sized. The boatman, however, tells a story of huge voices bespeaking through the river, with the female ones belonging to the huge undines, while their male order-giver is never seen. The male could be Abaia, or could be some lieutenant, perhaps. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 09 Dec 2008, 19:23 follows, by subject match Jeff Wilson > > This is Jonas' story of the black beans: > I can't make more of that than maybe they were quantum black holes that > ended up being chucked in the sun instead. Jonah is also our source for > the Great Beasts being mountain-sized. I believe we see Abia and Erebus in Severian's Undine Dream. Shadow 15 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Far off loomed great shapes - things hundreds of times larger than a man. Some seemed ships, and some clouds; one was a living head without a body; one had a hundred heads. A blue haze obscured them, and I saw below me a country of sand, carved by the currents. A palace stood there that was greater than our Citadel, but it was ruinous, """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Hundreds of times larger than a man. Living head without a body, one had a hundred heads. This is a hunch of course. While these creatures seem to represent primordial and pagan entities, I think they also stand as a sort of theological critique. Living Head without a body: a distant God with no incarnated aspect. One had a hundred heads: Polytheism. ~witz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jordon Flato — 09 Dec 2008, 19:30 in reply to Son of Witz I think all of this is further complicated when we get into Short Sun and the Mother, right? I mean, this argues a bit for the extraterrestrial invaders theory, in my book. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Watkins — 09 Dec 2008, 19:31 in reply to Son of Witz Witz--I think your instinct is correct. It's also worth noting that the mythological Typhon had a hundred heads, and that the great, ruined palace might be R'lyeh. > On 12/9/08, Son of Witz wrote: > > > This is Jonas' story of the black beans: > > I can't make more of that than maybe they were quantum black holes that > > ended up being chucked in the sun instead. Jonah is also our source for > > the Great Beasts being mountain-sized. > I believe we see Abia and Erebus in Severian's Undine Dream. Shadow 15 > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > Far off loomed great shapes - things hundreds of times larger than a man. Some > seemed ships, and some clouds; one was a living head without a body; one had a > hundred heads. A blue haze obscured them, and I saw below me a country of sand, > carved by the currents. A palace stood there that was greater than our Citadel, > but it was ruinous, > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > Hundreds of times larger than a man. > Living head without a body, > one had a hundred heads. > > This is a hunch of course. > > While these creatures seem to represent primordial and pagan entities, I think they also stand as a sort of theological critique. > Living Head without a body: a distant God with no incarnated aspect. > One had a hundred heads: Polytheism. > > ~witz > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jordon Flato — 09 Dec 2008, 19:45 in reply to John Watkins Which is a nice tie in to Evil Guest, no? I know it's been discussed, but it did seem like an interesting way to maybe talk about the origin of the Megatherians. Except not really. They do seem pretty Lovecraftian, while also having the symbolic characteristics Witz talks about. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 09 Dec 2008, 19:59 follows, by subject match Jordon Flato > -----Original Message----- > From: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:31 AM > To: 'The Urth Mailing List' > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > > Witz--I think your instinct is correct. It's also worth noting that > the mythological Typhon had a hundred heads, and that the great, > ruined palace might be R'lyeh. Interesting. I don't know anything about Typhon, myth or long sun. that's neat. R'lyeh too. gonna read some Lovecraft soon. just bought that Necronomicon compiliation. I'd thought of Leviathan, of course, along the lines of it's presence in The Illuminatus Trilogy. ~witz > On 12/9/08, Son of Witz wrote: > > > > This is Jonas' story of the black beans: > > > I can't make more of that than maybe they were quantum black holes that > > > ended up being chucked in the sun instead. Jonah is also our source for > > > the Great Beasts being mountain-sized. > > I believe we see Abia and Erebus in Severian's Undine Dream. Shadow 15 > > > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > Far off loomed great shapes - things hundreds of times larger than a man. Some > > seemed ships, and some clouds; one was a living head without a body; one had a > > hundred heads. A blue haze obscured them, and I saw below me a country of sand, > > carved by the currents. A palace stood there that was greater than our Citadel, > > but it was ruinous, > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > > > Hundreds of times larger than a man. > > Living head without a body, > > one had a hundred heads. > > > > This is a hunch of course. > > > > While these creatures seem to represent primordial and pagan entities, I think they also stand as a sort of theological critique. > > Living Head without a body: a distant God with no incarnated aspect. > > One had a hundred heads: Polytheism. > > > > ~witz > > > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 09 Dec 2008, 20:08 follows, by subject match Son of Witz And to pick up another thread, I think it's helpful to view TBotNS's cosmology from a faerie or Greek perspective. Severian need not be related to the undines, but that's one way of explaining why he does indeed seem to have a water-sprite connection. My assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and Idas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an ancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is Poseidon and the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational explanation. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:13:15 -0600 > From: Jeff Wilson > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <493DFE6B.6040800 at io.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Thomas Bitterman wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:12 PM, David Stockhoff > > wrote: > > > > I don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the > > undines. Does anyone "know" or care to guess? > > > Abaia could be an enormous, ageless leviathan grown from some earlier > epoch's premiere thaumaturgist, like Baldanders begins to be during > Severian's reign, or it could be something else but still seems to > include gigantified beings descended of human stock among its "undine" > henchmen. > > My pet theory is that Ouen's side of the family has undines in the > driftwoodpile; this explains several mysteries of the book: Dorcas' > awakening when buried underwater, where Severian's sister is (she's > Jolenta), Severian's unfailing ability to survive water when his other > powers are hit and miss, the ambiguous agression of the undines against > the New Sun (they want to turn Severian instead of "wasting" an > irreplaceable double agent, they "save" him from Gyoll instead of > letting him stay tangled long enough to make it obvious he's an > undine-bred), and so forth. > > -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 09 Dec 2008, 20:28 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff Jack, Jeff, Witz--- I recall a hint somewhere that Abaia and Erebus were not from Urth, but I am not sure Jonas is the source of that. Where does he suggest that? I recall thinking that made them sound very Cthulhulean. They would have had to arrive when very small, a long time ago. And they could have, back during the era when there was commerce between star systems. Is the book Lives of the Seventeen Megathereians in the Autarch's library? The image of huge giants bringing about an apocalypse---or struggling against one---is very Revelations. I am also reminded of The Night Land and its Watchers. But yes, since the Beast has been interpreted as the Church (see interpretations of Nostradamus, however silly), it is possible to see the various beasts as symbolic. However, in terms of the story, if interpreted literally, that would mean that several species got together on Urth to conquer it. Seems odd. I have preferred to see that scene as a vision, and that none of the monsters are actually Abaia or Erebus. But I have no argument for this. I'll have to look it up. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 05:26:03 -0800 (PST) > From: John Smith > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <95063.26628.qm at web180004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Isn't Abaia an alien monster from the stars? > > This is Jonas' story of the black beans: > > "...others went out in the ships that ply between the stars, returning with treasure and knowledge. In time there returned a woman who had gained nothing among them but a handful of black beans... > > "...-she displayed the beans to the lords of men, and told them that unless she were obeyed she would cast them into the sea and so put an end to the world. They had her seized and torn to bits, for they were a hundred times more complete in their domination than our Autarch." (Shadow, XXXV) > > > Best wishes, > > Jack > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 13:09:47 -0600 > From: Jeff Wilson > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: jsmith2627 at att.net, The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <493EC27B.7010800 at io.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > John Smith wrote: > > Isn't Abaia an alien monster from the stars? > > > Possibly. Abaia is said to be one of the Great Beasts, but so was > Aleister Crowley in his time. The library book _Lives of the Seventeen > Megathereians_ implies that many Great Beasts (Mega * Thereians) are > human enough to have biographies. > > Of course, a man can take a beast's name for notoriety, as Typhon did. > The Typhon that we meet in the Book is certainly a man, and certainly > has designs on the dominating the world, but is not the irresistable > force of nature the ancient Greek myths' Typhon was. > > This is Jonas' story of the black beans: > > > I can't make more of that than maybe they were quantum black holes that > ended up being chucked in the sun instead. Jonah is also our source for > the Great Beasts being mountain-sized. > > The boatman, however, tells a story of huge voices bespeaking through > the river, with the female ones belonging to the huge undines, while > their male order-giver is never seen. The male could be Abaia, or could > be some lieutenant, perhaps. > > -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 > 19:23:20 +0000 From: "Son of Witz" Subject: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dave Tallman — 09 Dec 2008, 21:17 in reply to David Stockhoff > David Stockhoff wrote: > My assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and Idas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an ancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is Poseidon and the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational explanation. > Abaia can't be all that ancient. In SotL, Typhon wakes up and tells Severian that he detects the monsters for the first time. They are new to Typhon, though he must have possessed mental powers sufficient to sense them before his "death," if they were there and powerful enough at that time. If we connect the "black bean" story with Abaia and company, we also know that they arrived during a rule that was more harsh than the autarchs, and that the woman who introduced them was torn to pieces for attempting to use them to seize power. One possible story, tying in with things we learn later in the BotSS: 1) Cilinia, Typhon's daughter, was involved in plotting with the monster Syclla. 2) She died a few years after being scanned for the Whorl. 3) She was power-hungry, since her personality also plotted against Pas on the Whorl. 4) Thus, she could be the woman who used the black beans -- embryo Megatherians drawn from space by interstellar travel or by specula. 5) She was probably executed by Typhon for this crime. 6) In the early stages the minds of the monsters might not be strong enough to detect by Typhon's mental powers. 7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image connection between "black beans" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun is hard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one of them is under the ice at the South Pole, after all. 8) Something caused the people controlling Typhon's rockets to abandon the planet. Typhon called it a "disaster," and mere slow cooling of the Sun wouldn't be enough. 9) Undines were probably people recruited and corrupted by Abaia, just as Juturna tried to recruit and corrupt Severian. They were given the power to breath underwater and grow without limit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Watkins — 09 Dec 2008, 21:23 in reply to Dave Tallman This seems dead-on to me, except that I can't quite square the black beans with Apheta's claim that the Hieropeople were behind the black hole in the sun (or, in my pet Wild Theory, the off-hand comment that the black panther in Soldier of Sidon is "the thing that eats the stars.") Maybe the Hieropeople gave Cilinia the Megatherian embryos? > On 12/9/08, Dave Tallman wrote: > David Stockhoff wrote: > > My assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and > > Idas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an > > ancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is Poseidon > > and the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational explanation. > Abaia can't be all that ancient. In SotL, Typhon wakes up and tells Severian > that he detects the monsters for the first time. They are new to Typhon, > though he must have possessed mental powers sufficient to sense them before > his "death," if they were there and powerful enough at that time. > > If we connect the "black bean" story with Abaia and company, we also know > that they arrived during a rule that was more harsh than the autarchs, and > that the woman who introduced them was torn to pieces for attempting to use > them to seize power. > > One possible story, tying in with things we learn later in the BotSS: > 1) Cilinia, Typhon's daughter, was involved in plotting with the monster > Syclla. > 2) She died a few years after being scanned for the Whorl. > 3) She was power-hungry, since her personality also plotted against Pas on > the Whorl. > 4) Thus, she could be the woman who used the black beans -- embryo > Megatherians drawn from space by interstellar travel or by specula. > 5) She was probably executed by Typhon for this crime. > 6) In the early stages the minds of the monsters might not be strong enough > to detect by Typhon's mental powers. > 7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image > connection between "black beans" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun is > hard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one of them > is under the ice at the South Pole, after all. > 8) Something caused the people controlling Typhon's rockets to abandon the > planet. Typhon called it a "disaster," and mere slow cooling of the Sun > wouldn't be enough. > 9) Undines were probably people recruited and corrupted by Abaia, just as > Juturna tried to recruit and corrupt Severian. They were given the power to > breath underwater and grow without limit. > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew King — 09 Dec 2008, 22:42 in reply to Dave Tallman > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Dave Tallman wrote: > 7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image > connection between "black beans" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun is > hard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one of them > is under the ice at the South Pole, after all. Wolfe presumably knows--and expects us to know--that under the ice at the South Pole currently sits a continent. What's going on here? Is this one of those singleton clues Wolfe likes to drop? Possibilities: - Everyone agreed to a cartographic inversion - Magnetic poles reversed - Antarctica drifted, like, really far - A Velikovskian pole flip ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 09 Dec 2008, 22:47 in reply to Matthew King > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Matthew King wrote: > Wolfe presumably knows--and expects us to know--that under the ice at > the South Pole currently sits a continent. What's going on here? Is > this one of those singleton clues Wolfe likes to drop? > > Possibilities: > > - Everyone agreed to a cartographic inversion > - Magnetic poles reversed > - Antarctica drifted, like, really far > - A Velikovskian pole flip Actually, Antarctica is the single strongest argument against my theory that the continents have shifted position noticeably by the time of BotNS: the Megatherian Erebus is named for the volcano on Antarctica in which, apparently, he makes his residence. I was kind of surprised that nobody mentioned this when I proposed it. -- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant ----- http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer http://www.danehyoakes.com I once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew King — 09 Dec 2008, 23:23 in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Matthew King wrote: > > Wolfe presumably knows--and expects us to know--that under the ice at > > the South Pole currently sits a continent. What's going on here? Is > > this one of those singleton clues Wolfe likes to drop? > > > > Possibilities: > > > > - Everyone agreed to a cartographic inversion > > - Magnetic poles reversed > > - Antarctica drifted, like, really far > > - A Velikovskian pole flip > Actually, Antarctica is the single strongest argument against my > theory that the continents have shifted position noticeably by the > time of BotNS: the Megatherian Erebus is named for the volcano > on Antarctica in which, apparently, he makes his residence. I was > kind of surprised that nobody mentioned this when I proposed it. Antarctica is alive! Perhaps it is possessed by Thulcandra. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Adam Thornton — 09 Dec 2008, 23:37 in reply to Matthew King > On Dec 9, 2008, at 4:42 PM, Matthew King wrote: > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Dave Tallman > wrote: > > 7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image > > connection between "black beans" in the sea and a black hole in the > > Sun is > > hard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- > > one of them > > is under the ice at the South Pole, after all. > Wolfe presumably knows--and expects us to know--that under the ice at > the South Pole currently sits a continent. What's going on here? Is > this one of those singleton clues Wolfe likes to drop? > > Possibilities: > > - Everyone agreed to a cartographic inversion Well, you know, everyone likes to be at the top of the map.....perhaps the Ascians, and the trans-Ascians, put Erebus at the North Pole. Or maybe It is in fact just the eponymous Volcano God. I wonder what dating It is like. Adam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 10 Dec 2008, 02:56 follows, by subject match Adam Thornton Hmmm. The black beans appear to be a tough knot to unravel. I don't see how 5 beans can become 17 megatherians, nor how they can indicate both Abaia/Erebus and the black hole in the sun. I wonder if they have been connected to any old myths ... real ones, I mean. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:17:20 -0700 > From: Dave Tallman > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: urth at lists.urth.net > Message-ID: <493EE060.6080708 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > David Stockhoff wrote: > > My assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and Idas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an ancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is Poseidon and the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational explanation. > > > > Abaia can't be all that ancient. In SotL, Typhon wakes up and tells > Severian that he detects the monsters for the first time. They are new > to Typhon, though he must have possessed mental powers sufficient to > sense them before his "death," if they were there and powerful enough at > that time. > > If we connect the "black bean" story with Abaia and company, we also > know that they arrived during a rule that was more harsh than the > autarchs, and that the woman who introduced them was torn to pieces for > attempting to use them to seize power. > > One possible story, tying in with things we learn later in the BotSS: > 1) Cilinia, Typhon's daughter, was involved in plotting with the monster > Syclla. > 2) She died a few years after being scanned for the Whorl. > 3) She was power-hungry, since her personality also plotted against Pas > on the Whorl. > 4) Thus, she could be the woman who used the black beans -- embryo > Megatherians drawn from space by interstellar travel or by specula. > 5) She was probably executed by Typhon for this crime. > 6) In the early stages the minds of the monsters might not be strong > enough to detect by Typhon's mental powers. > 7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image > connection between "black beans" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun > is hard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one > of them is under the ice at the South Pole, after all. > 8) Something caused the people controlling Typhon's rockets to abandon > the planet. Typhon called it a "disaster," and mere slow cooling of the > Sun wouldn't be enough. > 9) Undines were probably people recruited and corrupted by Abaia, just > as Juturna tried to recruit and corrupt Severian. They were given the > power to breath underwater and grow without limit. > > > > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Watkins — 10 Dec 2008, 03:22 in reply to David Stockhoff How many Megatherians are actually named in the text? Four, right--Abaia, Erebus, Scylla and Arioch? If it's just these four, how plausible is it that all 17 megatherians are similar godlike monsters--that there are 13 such monsters unnamed in the text? Maybe some of the so-called "megatherians" are otherworldly monsters, and so are human or semi-human, like Baldanders or Typhon and his brood. > On 12/9/08, David Stockhoff wrote: > Hmmm. > > The black beans appear to be a tough knot to unravel. I don't see how 5 > beans can become 17 megatherians, nor how they can indicate both > Abaia/Erebus and the black hole in the sun. I wonder if they have been > connected to any old myths ... real ones, I mean. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:17:20 -0700 > From: Dave Tallman > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: urth at lists.urth.net > Message-ID: <493EE060.6080708 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > David Stockhoff wrote: > > > My assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and > > > Idas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an > > > ancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is > > > Poseidon and the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational > > > explanation. > Abaia can't be all that ancient. In SotL, Typhon wakes up and tells > Severian that he detects the monsters for the first time. They are new > to Typhon, though he must have possessed mental powers sufficient to > sense them before his "death," if they were there and powerful enough at > that time. > > If we connect the "black bean" story with Abaia and company, we also > know that they arrived during a rule that was more harsh than the > autarchs, and that the woman who introduced them was torn to pieces for > attempting to use them to seize power. > > One possible story, tying in with things we learn later in the BotSS: > 1) Cilinia, Typhon's daughter, was involved in plotting with the monster > Syclla. > 2) She died a few years after being scanned for the Whorl. > 3) She was power-hungry, since her personality also plotted against Pas > on the Whorl. > 4) Thus, she could be the woman who used the black beans -- embryo > Megatherians drawn from space by interstellar travel or by specula. > 5) She was probably executed by Typhon for this crime. > 6) In the early stages the minds of the monsters might not be strong > enough to detect by Typhon's mental powers. > 7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image > connection between "black beans" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun > is hard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one > of them is under the ice at the South Pole, after all. > 8) Something caused the people controlling Typhon's rockets to abandon > the planet. Typhon called it a "disaster," and mere slow cooling of the > Sun wouldn't be enough. > 9) Undines were probably people recruited and corrupted by Abaia, just > as Juturna tried to recruit and corrupt Severian. They were given the > power to breath underwater and grow without limit. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 081209-1, 12/09/2008 > Tested on: 12/9/2008 9:56:40 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ James Wynn — 10 Dec 2008, 04:42 in reply to Matthew King > > Actually, Antarctica is the single strongest argument against my > > theory that the continents have shifted position noticeably by the > > time of BotNS: the Megatherian Erebus is named for the volcano > > on Antarctica in which, apparently, he makes his residence. I was > > kind of surprised that nobody mentioned this when I proposed it. Right. Roy wouldn't like your reasoning since it relies on evidence-by-reference, but I find it pretty conclusive all by itself. As it is, there are other signs pointing to Erebus being at Antarctica as well. IIRC Severian says that where he is (south of the Equator) it is cold in the South and warm in the North. It's the opposite in the land of the Ascians. So South is not "North" in Severianland. Erebus = Antarctica (presumably in an underground base "under the ice"). Abaia = North Pole (controlling the Ascians) Scylla = East of Nessus??? I say this since it gives her proximity to Cilinia Arioch= Pacific and points West? There seems to be only four Megatherians of any significance in Severians day. Just because there have been seventeen over the years doesn't mean they are all alive or still living on Earth. Typhon might have *become* a Megatherian given time and the opportunity to attach more heads and snakey appendages. J ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 10 Dec 2008, 05:04 in reply to David Stockhoff > David Stockhoff wrote: > And to pick up another thread, I think it's helpful to view TBotNS's > cosmology from a faerie or Greek perspective. Severian need not be > related to the undines, but that's one way of explaining why he does > indeed seem to have a water-sprite connection. That was my thought at first, but Severian goes on to survive watery peril without a companion undine at hand. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 10 Dec 2008, 05:28 in reply to Dave Tallman > Dave Tallman wrote: > David Stockhoff wrote: > > My assumption has always been that the undines, Abaia, Baldanders, and > > Idas were all the same race but different ages, and Abaia is merely an > > ancient, huge, undersea humanoid. Which is the same as saying he is > > Poseidon and the undines are his nymphs---but with a rational > > explanation. > > > Abaia can't be all that ancient. In SotL, Typhon wakes up and tells > Severian that he detects the monsters for the first time. They are new > to Typhon, though he must have possessed mental powers sufficient to > sense them before his "death," if they were there and powerful enough at > that time. They could have been in hiding somehow, and then didn't bother with the shielding or whatever after he was dead. > If we connect the "black bean" story with Abaia and company, we also > know that they arrived during a rule that was more harsh than the > autarchs, and that the woman who introduced them was torn to pieces for > attempting to use them to seize power. > > One possible story, tying in with things we learn later in the BotSS: > 1) Cilinia, Typhon's daughter, was involved in plotting with the monster > Syclla. > 2) She died a few years after being scanned for the Whorl. > 3) She was power-hungry, since her personality also plotted against Pas > on the Whorl. > 4) Thus, she could be the woman who used the black beans -- embryo > Megatherians drawn from space by interstellar travel or by specula. good guess, though small black holes are sometimes characterized as "kernels"; I'd say we've got even odds. > 5) She was probably executed by Typhon for this crime. > 6) In the early stages the minds of the monsters might not be strong > enough to detect by Typhon's mental powers. > 7) They would need a power source to thrive and grow, and the image > connection between "black beans" in the sea and a black hole in the Sun > is hard to ignore. They probably didn't just grow by eating fish -- one > of them is under the ice at the South Pole, after all. If you mean Erebus, Mt Erebus is far from the pole on an island off the Antractic coast. Still lots of geothermal power for nefarious schemes, and if the eternal smoke were to suddenly stop when roofed over, that's a symptom to be mis-interpreted as cooling of Urth's core. > 8) Something caused the people controlling Typhon's rockets to abandon > the planet. Typhon called it a "disaster," and mere slow cooling of the > Sun wouldn't be enough. seeding with monsters would, I guess. The rocket captains must have been foreward thinkers. > 9) Undines were probably people recruited and corrupted by Abaia, just > as Juturna tried to recruit and corrupt Severian. They were given the > power to breath underwater and grow without limit. I agree, though the indefinite life span and freedom of the seas probably sells more dupes. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 10 Dec 2008, 05:37 in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Matthew King wrote: > > Wolfe presumably knows--and expects us to know--that under the ice at > > the South Pole currently sits a continent. What's going on here? Is > > this one of those singleton clues Wolfe likes to drop? > > > > Possibilities: > > > > - Everyone agreed to a cartographic inversion > > - Magnetic poles reversed > > - Antarctica drifted, like, really far > > - A Velikovskian pole flip > Actually, Antarctica is the single strongest argument against my > theory that the continents have shifted position noticeably by the > time of BotNS: the Megatherian Erebus is named for the volcano > on Antarctica in which, apparently, he makes his residence. I was > kind of surprised that nobody mentioned this when I proposed it. Existing volcanoes travel with the continental plates. In the case of Hawaii, there's a relatively stationary hotspot in the mantle that burns new ones through the crust as it passes overhead, leaving a trail of volcanic mountains. Erebus is the last of a group of volcanoes over a closing-up vent with no particular hot spot. (this is all pre-1980 concumer encyclopedia geology, btw,) So Mt Erebus stays at the edge of Antarctica, whether Antarctica goes or stays. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 10 Dec 2008, 06:03 in reply to David Stockhoff > David Stockhoff wrote: > Hmmm. > > The black beans appear to be a tough knot to unravel. I don't see how > 5 beans can become 17 megatherians, nor how they can indicate both > Abaia/Erebus and the black hole in the sun. I wonder if they have > been connected to any old myths ... real ones, I mean. Seventeen is the Urthly thirteen - _Lives_ can draw on all of the Age of Myth and such and just pick the 17 most lurid folks from the likes of Chernovog, Vlad the Impaler, Aleister Crowley, Satan, Herod, Ming The Merciless, Dr Death, Dr Island, Dr Doctor, Doctor Who, The Master, Cthulhu, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Adolph Hitler, Darth Vader, Son of Sam, Jack the Ripper, Attila the Hun, Caligula.... -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Smith — 10 Dec 2008, 07:42 in reply to John Watkins Jonas speaks of "a handful of black beans" (Shadow XXXV) Is there some other reference in the text that specifies only 5? Best wishes, Jack > > The black beans appear to be a tough knot to unravel. > I don't see how 5 beans can become 17 megatherians > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 10 Dec 2008, 14:43 in reply to John Smith > John Smith wrote: > Jonas speaks of "a handful of black beans" (Shadow XXXV) > > Is there some other reference in the text that specifies only 5? > > Best wishes, > > Jack Perhaps he's thinking of another handful of magic beans, Jack. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Adam Thornton — 10 Dec 2008, 15:03 in reply to Jeff Wilson > On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > Seventeen is the Urthly thirteen - _Lives_ can draw on all of the > Age of Myth and such and just pick the 17 most lurid folks from the > likes of Chernovog, Vlad the Impaler, Aleister Crowley, Satan, > Herod, Ming The Merciless, Dr Death, Dr Island, Dr Doctor, Doctor > Who, The Master, Cthulhu, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Adolph Hitler, > Darth Vader, Son of Sam, Jack the Ripper, Attila the Hun, Caligula... Don't forget Doctor Girlfriend! Adam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Watkins — 10 Dec 2008, 15:05 in reply to Adam Thornton No Doctor Doom? > On 12/10/08, Adam Thornton wrote: > > On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > Seventeen is the Urthly thirteen - _Lives_ can draw on all of the Age of > > Myth and such and just pick the 17 most lurid folks from the likes of > > Chernovog, Vlad the Impaler, Aleister Crowley, Satan, Herod, Ming The > > Merciless, Dr Death, Dr Island, Dr Doctor, Doctor Who, The Master, Cthulhu, > > Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Adolph Hitler, Darth Vader, Son of Sam, Jack the > > Ripper, Attila the Hun, Caligula... > Don't forget Doctor Girlfriend! > > Adam > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 10 Dec 2008, 15:14 follows, by subject match John Watkins Who doesn't know Mount Erebus? ... Erebus, fiery-throated on the waste Antarctic shore. ---The Lathe of Heaven, by Ursula K. Le Guin Presumably it's no longer an active volcano (so there's no reason why a giant humanoid couldn't live in it---just sayin'). But it wouldn't be full of water either. Also, I don't see why the four Beasts need to be part of the 17 Megatherians at all, especially if 5 beans = 5 Beasts (one unnamed). We have no other names for them, not even "Beast." There are 4 apocalyptic horsemen, however---FWIW. Mythical Scylla has only 6 heads, but she could be the hundred-headed beast Severian sees (somehow she is also a goddess in BotLS and, I think, BotSS). Of the rest, I don't know of any associations with ships/clouds/headless giants, which Severian also sees. In myth, Abaia is a giant eel who brings a Flood in anger, Erebus is darkness and death (and is the sunset/West looking out from Scylla's cave in Homer), and Arioch is a demon of Semitic origin with a number of interpretations. Arioch is often depicted with a huge sword, thanks in part to Michael Moorcock, I think. The main features of the 4 horsemen are: bow and crown, sword, scales, death ("*and Hades was following with him*," whose other name is Erebus). That's 2 possible correspondences, but we need 4. Incidentally, in Moorcock's Elric pantheon, there is "*Pyaray*, the *Tentacled Whisperer of Impossible Secrets*, [who] appears as a giant red octopus. His soul is kept in a blue crystal on his head. Sailors who drown at sea are taken into his Chaos Fleet. One portent of the end of the world is the ascent of the Chaos Fleet to the surface." Pelagic argosy, anyone? Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with one another or any single mythos in any way, except that the names Erebus and Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla are Homeric. I'll have to look into black bean myths. I don't follow the Erebus/Antarctica pole-flipping thread. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:47:49 -0800 > From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 10 Dec 2008, 15:22 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff Exactly. If he is granted that power or is "favored" by the sea fairies, he can breathe water, whether he has a companion or not. However, in TUotNS, he dives deep down to drowned Nessus with no problem because he is an aquastor who cannot be killed. When the gun of the Tower fires on him, he is struck, killed, and recovers instantly; there is no reason to apply narrow concepts of "living" or "dead" to him now. Juturna basically tells him this. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 23:04:21 -0600 > From: Jeff Wilson > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <493F4DD5.7040905 at io.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > David Stockhoff wrote: > > And to pick up another thread, I think it's helpful to view TBotNS's > > cosmology from a faerie or Greek perspective. Severian need not be > > related to the undines, but that's one way of explaining why he does > > indeed seem to have a water-sprite connection. > > > That was my thought at first, but Severian goes on to survive watery > peril without a companion undine at hand. > > -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 10 Dec 2008, 15:26 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff I thought whoever brought up Jonas's story said there were 5 beans. I haven't dug up the text yet. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:43:45 -0600 > From: Jeff Wilson > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: jsmith2627 at att.net, The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <493FD5A1.2020708 at io.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > John Smith wrote: > > Jonas speaks of "a handful of black beans" (Shadow XXXV) > > > > Is there some other reference in the text that specifies only 5? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Jack > > > Perhaps he's thinking of another handful of magic beans, Jack. > > > > -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 10 Dec 2008, 15:51 in reply to Adam Thornton > On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > Seventeen is the Urthly thirteen - _Lives_ can draw on all of the > > Age of Myth and such and just pick the 17 most lurid folks from the > > likes of Chernovog, Vlad the Impaler, Aleister Crowley, Satan, > > Herod, Ming The Merciless, Dr Death, Dr Island, Dr Doctor, Doctor > > Who, The Master, Cthulhu, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Adolph Hitler, > > Darth Vader, Son of Sam, Jack the Ripper, Attila the Hun, Caligula... > Don't forget Doctor Girlfriend! And Dr Henry Killinger! . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 10 Dec 2008, 15:54 in reply to David Stockhoff > Who doesn't know Mount Erebus? > > ... Erebus, fiery-throated on the waste Antarctic shore. > ---The Lathe of Heaven, by Ursula K. Le Guin > > Presumably it's no longer an active volcano It is active. It has a lava lake, even. http://erebus.nmt.edu/ . (so there's no reason why a > giant humanoid couldn't live in it---just sayin'). But it wouldn't be > full of water either. > > Also, I don't see why the four Beasts need to be part of the 17 > Megatherians at all, especially if 5 beans = 5 Beasts (one unnamed). We > have no other names for them, not even "Beast." There are 4 apocalyptic > horsemen, however---FWIW. > > Mythical Scylla has only 6 heads, but she could be the hundred-headed > beast Severian sees (somehow she is also a goddess in BotLS and, I > think, BotSS). Of the rest, I don't know of any associations with > ships/clouds/headless giants, which Severian also sees. In myth, Abaia > is a giant eel who brings a Flood in anger, Erebus is darkness and death > (and is the sunset/West looking out from Scylla's cave in Homer), and > Arioch is a demon of Semitic origin with a number of interpretations. > Arioch is often depicted with a huge sword, thanks in part to Michael > Moorcock, I think. > > The main features of the 4 horsemen are: bow and crown, sword, scales, > death ("*and Hades was following with him*," whose other name is > Erebus). That's 2 possible correspondences, but we need 4. > > Incidentally, in Moorcock's Elric pantheon, there is "*Pyaray*, the > *Tentacled Whisperer of Impossible Secrets*, [who] appears as a giant > red octopus. His soul is kept in a blue crystal on his head. Sailors who > drown at sea are taken into his Chaos Fleet. One portent of the end of > the world is the ascent of the Chaos Fleet to the surface." Pelagic > argosy, anyone? > > Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with one > another or any single mythos in any way, except that the names Erebus > and Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla are Homeric. > > I'll have to look into black bean myths. > > I don't follow the Erebus/Antarctica pole-flipping thread. > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:47:49 -0800 > > From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" > > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stuart Hamm — 10 Dec 2008, 16:26 in reply to brunians at brunians.org come on....how could you forget Dr Phil???? Talk about evil... Skype? stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm ? ??? stuarthamm.net --- On Wed, 12/10/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > From: brunians at brunians.org > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 7:51 AM > On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > Seventeen is the Urthly thirteen - _Lives_ can draw on all of the > > Age of Myth and such and just pick the 17 most lurid folks from the > > likes of Chernovog, Vlad the Impaler, Aleister Crowley, Satan, > > Herod, Ming The Merciless, Dr Death, Dr Island, Dr Doctor, Doctor > > Who, The Master, Cthulhu, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Adolph Hitler, > > Darth Vader, Son of Sam, Jack the Ripper, Attila the Hun, Caligula... > Don't forget Doctor Girlfriend! And Dr Henry Killinger! . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 10 Dec 2008, 18:47 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > Who doesn't know Mount Erebus? > > > > ... Erebus, fiery-throated on the waste Antarctic shore. > > ---The Lathe of Heaven, by Ursula K. Le Guin > > > > Presumably it's no longer an active volcano > It is active. > > It has a lava lake, even. > > http://erebus.nmt.edu/ Where's the monster? -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 10 Dec 2008, 19:11 follows, by subject match Jeff Wilson Right, I meant in Severian's time. Vodalus says Erebus wants humanity to conquer the stars again, only this time as their slaves, "who wait until man is purified again, ready to join with them in the conquest of the universe." So neither he nor Abaia would want to do anything to make humanity impure or otherwise delay that time. Thus, they couldn't be the cause of humanity's disgrace nor the wounding of the sun, unless they are very stupid. Their main attributes are size and mental powers; Vodalus does not make their physical forms clear: "You mustn't think of them battering at the Wall with their fists, or tossing boulders about." It would make sense if they are aliens who came to Urth seeking to control the Autarchs, whom they knew would eventually produce the New Sun and thus (they think) their galactic empire. So the struggle between them and the Hierodules literally makes pawns of the human species. Anyway, it is indeed a "handful" of black beans, not 5. Also, Severian sees the many-headed monster, along with Medusa's head, in an earlier dream brought by Abaia. This seems to favor my own opinion that the vision of "Beasts" after the flood is also a dream. I don't think the many-headed beast and the headless giant are Abaia's gang. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:54:37 -0500 (EST) > From: brunians at brunians.org > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dave Tallman — 10 Dec 2008, 22:54 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff John Watkins wrote: This seems dead-on to me, except that I can't quite square the black beans with Apheta's claim that the Hieropeople were behind the black hole in the sun (or, in my pet Wild Theory, the off-hand comment that the black panther in Soldier of Sidon is "the thing that eats the stars.") Maybe the Hieropeople gave Cilinia the Megatherian embryos? Apheta's words don't read like a direct confession to planting the black hole to me: "You know that we have condemned the peoples of Urth, and why. They now feel that they have earned our forgiveness, and the chance to resume the places they held of old --" The condemnation sounds like something administrative, because is it tied to "the chance to resume the places they held of old." It may be that the peoples of Urth were condemned because of something an Urth person did (i.e. ruin their sun). I believe Urth was quarantined from human-led space travel -- that was the main punishment (this ties in well with the "resume the places" line). In this view, the help with Urth's Sun problem was a side-issue, only allowed after forgiveness was obtained. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 10 Dec 2008, 23:21 follows, by subject match Dave Tallman > Apheta's words don't read like a direct confession to planting the black > hole to me: "You know that we have condemned the peoples of Urth, and why. > They now feel that they have earned our forgiveness, and the chance to > resume the places they held of old --" > > The condemnation sounds like something administrative, because is it tied to > "the chance to resume the places they held of old." It may be that the > peoples of Urth were condemned because of something an Urth person did (i.e. > ruin their sun). I believe Urth was quarantined from human-led space travel > -- that was the main punishment (this ties in well with the "resume the > places" line). In this view, the help with Urth's Sun problem was a > side-issue, only allowed after forgiveness was obtained. I too have a hard time buying any of the explanations of where the text clues us into any astroengineering. along that line of reasoning, the Old Autarch's dialogue could possibly add some support. From the "Autarch of the Commonwealth chapter in Citadel: """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "You were right to hate me, Severian. I stand? as you will stand? for so much that is wrong." "Why?" I asked. "Why?" I was on my knees beside him. "Because all else is worse. Until the New Sun comes, we have but a choice of evils. All have been tried, and all have failed. Goods in common, the rule of the people? everything. You wish for progress? The Ascians have it. They are deafened by it, crazed by the death of Nature till they are ready to accept Erebus and the rest as gods. We hold humankind stationary? in barbarism. The Autarch protects the people from the exultants, and the exultants? shelter them from the Autarch. The religious comfort them. We have closed the roads to paralyze the social order?" """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" We know the Hierodules are behind the Autarchy. When the Autarch says "we" he probably means the Hierarchs and the state. So, it could be that the condemnation is that they were held in barbarism. That they were 'condemned' to a lesser evil than that of Erebus's brand of evil. Also, Severian says in Urth XII "I felt my consciousness falling in upon itself as the matter does in the heart of a star" the combination of these two bits of text may support the final potential explanation that the Lexicon Urthus gives for why a black hole might be in the heart of the sun. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Finally there is a theory of how there might already be a black hole in the heart of our star...Among the many possibilities presented by Pournelle, one seems especially germane: "there's a black hole of around 1% of the Sun's mass dead center in our star, and the Sun shines because matter falling into the hole gives off energy; there's no fusion in there at all" """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Now, I don't know much about this stuff and had never heard that theory. Given that it's not common knowledge (as far as I know) its' interesting that Severian, of limited education, would just sort of understand this as a common explanation of what goes on in the heart of a star. This makes me think that Wolfe is probably buying into this theory, at least as far as BoTNS is concerned. Which, would, it seems make the black hole a natural event, just as entropy of the universe is a natural event. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew Malthouse — 10 Dec 2008, 23:49 in reply to David Stockhoff > At 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote: > Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with > one another or any single mythos in any way, except that the names > Erebus and Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla > are Homeric. Arioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared in works as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al. Erebus son of Chaos was shadow. Also a part of or alternate name for all of Hades. The word has proto-indo-european roots and may be cognate the Hebrew erebh, sunset. Scylla, daughter of Nissus king of Megara. Or (more likely): one of the monster guardians the straits of Messina, either 6 headed or a single human head with 4 dogs' heads. Thematically all these three are bad ends for men - or mankind. So even if their motives are complex and their actions mot entirely explicable I think the name are enough to tell us that Wolfe means us to understand that This Is Not A Good Idea. Matthew Si non confectus, non reficiat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 11 Dec 2008, 08:30 in reply to Son of Witz FWIW, the — marks in this should mostly be periods > On Dec 10, 2008, at 3:21 PM, Son of Witz wrote: > along that line of reasoning, the Old Autarch's dialogue could > possibly add some support. From the "Autarch of the Commonwealth > chapter in Citadel: > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > "You were right to hate me, Severian. I stand? as you will stand? > for so much that is wrong." > > "Why?" I asked. "Why?" I was on my knees beside him. > "Because all else is worse. Until the New Sun comes, we have but a > choice of evils. All have been tried, and all have failed. Goods in > common, the rule of the people? everything. You wish for > progress? The Ascians have it. They are deafened by it, crazed by > the death of Nature till they are ready to accept Erebus and the rest > as gods. We hold humankind stationary? in barbarism. The > Autarch protects the people from the exultants, and the exultants? > shelter them from the Autarch. The religious comfort them. We > have closed the roads to paralyze the social order?" > """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 11 Dec 2008, 17:39 follows, by subject match Son of Witz That's certainly true, and that's why I briefly considered a connection with the apocalypse. Arioch is only mentioned once at the opening of Book 3, and Scylla only once in Book 2. They are unimportant unless they provide a clue to the significance of the main 2. I'm not sure they do. Obviously, all are monsters. Scylla's physical form is probably less important than the root "to rend" (conflated by poets with crab and bitch, thus her depicted form). Arioch may signify some kind of devourer, though there are many far cooler devourers in mythology. Wolfe may have chosen them to round out the bunch, but that's all I see. Maybe he wanted to give a shout-out to Milton. Funny that Abaia did not after all cause the Flood. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:49:01 +0000 > From: Matthew Malthouse > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <20081210234924.D4D3A8039 at diego.dreamhost.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote: > > Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with > > one another or any single mythos in any way, except that the names > > Erebus and Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla > > are Homeric. > > > > Arioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared > in works as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al. > > Erebus son of Chaos was shadow. Also a part of or alternate name for > all of Hades. The word has proto-indo-european roots and may be > cognate the Hebrew erebh, sunset. > > Scylla, daughter of Nissus king of Megara. Or (more likely): one of > the monster guardians the straits of Messina, either 6 headed or a > single human head with 4 dogs' heads. > > > Thematically all these three are bad ends for men - or mankind. > > So even if their motives are complex and their actions mot entirely > explicable I think the name are enough to tell us that Wolfe means us > to understand that This Is Not A Good Idea. > > Matthew > > > Si non confectus, non reficiat > > > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 11 Dec 2008, 17:53 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff on a mundane note, I think the fact that he left these players offstage is just great, even though my first read I was a bit disappointed that they didn't have more of a presence. I think as menacing threats, they're scarier because they're unknown. ~witz > -----Original Message----- > From: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net] > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 09:39 AM > To: urth at lists.urth.net > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > > That's certainly true, and that's why I briefly considered a connection with the apocalypse. Arioch is only mentioned once at the opening of Book 3, and Scylla only once in Book 2. They are unimportant unless they provide a clue to the significance of the main 2. I'm not sure they do. > > Obviously, all are monsters. Scylla's physical form is probably less important than the root "to rend" (conflated by poets with crab and bitch, thus her depicted form). Arioch may signify some kind of devourer, though there are many far cooler devourers in mythology. Wolfe may have chosen them to round out the bunch, but that's all I see. Maybe he wanted to give a shout-out to Milton. > > Funny that Abaia did not after all cause the Flood. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:49:01 +0000 > From: Matthew Malthouse > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: The Urth Mailing List > Message-ID: <20081210234924.D4D3A8039 at diego.dreamhost.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote: > > > Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with > > > one another or any single mythos in any way, except that the names > > > Erebus and Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla > > > are Homeric. > Arioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared > in works as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al. > > Erebus son of Chaos was shadow. Also a part of or alternate name for > all of Hades. The word has proto-indo-european roots and may be > cognate the Hebrew erebh, sunset. > > Scylla, daughter of Nissus king of Megara. Or (more likely): one of > the monster guardians the straits of Messina, either 6 headed or a > single human head with 4 dogs' heads. > > > Thematically all these three are bad ends for men - or mankind. > > So even if their motives are complex and their actions mot entirely > explicable I think the name are enough to tell us that Wolfe means us > to understand that This Is Not A Good Idea. > > Matthew > > > Si non confectus, non reficiat > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 081210-0, 12/10/2008 > Tested on: 12/11/2008 12:39:02 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 11 Dec 2008, 18:19 follows, by subject match Son of Witz I also don't recall any evidence that the black hole had anything to do with any punishment. The suns inhabited by humans are cut off from one another, and the Commonwealth is frozen so that no change can come before it is judged. As long as the Ascians are fended off, it can't fall, nor will it progress. That's punishment enough---a kind of purgatory. Eventually, the purgatory will become a cold hell if a new sun is not brought. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:54:46 -0700 > From: "Dave Tallman" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: urth at lists.urth.net > Message-ID: > <1bf4dd40812101454g55a6d7cbo5f449221b8d74017 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > John Watkins wrote: > > This seems dead-on to me, except that I can't quite square the black > beans with Apheta's claim that the Hieropeople were behind the black > hole in the sun (or, in my pet Wild Theory, the off-hand comment that > the black panther in Soldier of Sidon is "the thing that eats the > stars.") > > Maybe the Hieropeople gave Cilinia the Megatherian embryos? > > Apheta's words don't read like a direct confession to planting the black > hole to me: "You know that we have condemned the peoples of Urth, and why. > They now feel that they have earned our forgiveness, and the chance to > resume the places they held of old --" > > The condemnation sounds like something administrative, because is it tied to > "the chance to resume the places they held of old." It may be that the > peoples of Urth were condemned because of something an Urth person did (i.e. > ruin their sun). I believe Urth was quarantined from human-led space travel > -- that was the main punishment (this ties in well with the "resume the > places" line). In this view, the help with Urth's Sun problem was a > side-issue, only allowed after forgiveness was obtained. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew Keeley — 11 Dec 2008, 18:35 in reply to Matthew Malthouse > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Matthew Malthouse > wrote: > At 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote: > > Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with one > > another or any single mythos in any way, except that the names Erebus and > > Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla are Homeric. > Arioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared in > works as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al. I know Moorcock published at least one of Wolfe's stories, so perhaps he was making a Paradise Lost reference AND homaging Moorcock? The problem there is that Moorcock and Wolfe are pretty much completely opposed philosophically and Moorcock is probably not the first writer Wolfe would "call out". Arioch in Moorcock's books is one of the major gods of Chaos, which seems relevant. -Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Watkins — 11 Dec 2008, 18:43 in reply to Matthew Keeley The sword Eterne in Wizard Knight is a Moorcock homage, isn't it? > On 12/11/08, Matthew Keeley wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Matthew Malthouse > wrote: > > At 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote: > > > Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with one > > > another or any single mythos in any way, except that the names Erebus and > > > Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla are Homeric. > > Arioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared in > > works as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al. > I know Moorcock published at least one of Wolfe's stories, so perhaps > he was making a Paradise Lost reference AND homaging Moorcock? > > The problem there is that Moorcock and Wolfe are pretty much > completely opposed philosophically and Moorcock is probably not the > first writer Wolfe would "call out". > > Arioch in Moorcock's books is one of the major gods of Chaos, which > seems relevant. > > -Matt > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 11 Dec 2008, 18:55 follows, by subject match John Watkins Witz--- Two thoughts: First, I am not sure Severian's thought needs to refer to a black hole. It sounds to me like what happens at the heart of a normal star. There is immense pressure and matter becomes plasma. Second, it just happens to be true that Jerry Pournelle is a nutjob and his theory is impossible. But it raises a good point, and what scraps of Lexicon Urthus I can read suggest parallel thinking. And that is this---that, IF Wolfe intended Urth to be of great age (millions of years) so that he could depict the sun as red and dying (as depicted in The Time Machine), THEN he would have had to deal with the problem of its ballooning into a red giant, eventually swallowing all 4 inner planets) in around 5 billion years---because that's the Main Sequence evolutionary path for a yellow star with the sun's mass, and that's how long it would take. He could have dealt with this in the following ways, by: -Ignoring stellar physics and making shit up, or convincing us that Urth is 5 billion years older -Suggesting that humans or Hieros plugged a hole in the Sun to stop its evolution -Imagining that some unlikely event arose RANDOMLY to knock the Sun off its normal course of evolution -Appealing to myth to force some other kind of ending to the Sun I think the first is obviously out and I see little evidence for the second, though it's possible. Nowhere is the worm in the Sun linked to crime or punishment or the Hieros, and we know that when they brought the Fountain (a white hole), they had to physically drag or throw it. There's no record of a black hole passing Urth. Freezing the Sun's evolution would save Urth, not kill it. (No idea what is supposed to happen when the 2 holes meet---would they just cancel each other out and let the Sun go on for another 5 billion years? Presumably; having a white sun would destroy life on Urth just as surely as a black sun.) But the last two work very well with one another and with the text. First, there is a Black Worm or Wolf or Panther or Dragon eating the Sun in every mythology. It's one of the main reasons for a hero to arise and go forth to die in combat with powerful beings to save the dying land. Second, there has always been speculation about the possibility of a spontaneous black hole developing in (or a very small one falling into?) the Sun. It's unlikely for it to actually happen, but it's a solid sci-fi explanation for bringing a mythical element into the story. And one way to summarize TBotNS is that it does exactly that over and over---not science fantasy but science MYTHOLOGY. Finally, it lets Wolfe set the story whenever he damn well wants to, and Urth can grow cold and die long before any stellar physicist can complain that the proper evolutionary track has been violated. BTW, I have a mostly-cleaned-up PDF of all 5 books. Shall I send you this PDF? > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:21:44 +0000 > From: "Son of Witz" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 11 Dec 2008, 19:04 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff Exactly, and that's just what Lovecraft did with his monsters. Abaia and Erebus are EXTREMELY Lovecraftian. All but the tentacles---Cthulhu also sent out dreams from beneath the sea to trouble the sensitive. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:53:26 +0000 > From: "Son of Witz" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 11 Dec 2008, 19:13 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff Yes, I considered that, Erebus being the son of Chaos, and Scylla being the daughter of Hecate or Crataeis or else of Typhon and Echidna (Chaos, Mother of all monsters), as in TBotLS. But Moorcock mixes things up even more prolifically than Wolfe. He's not much of a source, really ... It's possible, I guess. Also, I wonder if by the second book Wolfe was already planning TBotLS and was working out a new mythology. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:35:46 -0500 > From: "Matthew Keeley" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: > <44fb53d10812111035he34ec14i19af61d8210b2438 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Matthew Malthouse > wrote: > > At 15:14 10/12/2008, you wrote: > > > > Otherwise, I have not found any correspondence of these names with one > > > > another or any single mythos in any way, except that the names Erebus and > > > > Arioch may have Semitic roots, and that Erebus and Scylla are Homeric. > > > > > > > > Arioch is indeed Hebrew meaning fierce lion and as a demon appeared in > > works as diverse (or similar?) as Paradise Lost and Morcock's Elric et al. > > > I know Moorcock published at least one of Wolfe's stories, so perhaps > he was making a Paradise Lost reference AND homaging Moorcock? > > The problem there is that Moorcock and Wolfe are pretty much > completely opposed philosophically and Moorcock is probably not the > first writer Wolfe would "call out". > > Arioch in Moorcock's books is one of the major gods of Chaos, which > seems relevant. > > -Matt > > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dave Tallman — 11 Dec 2008, 19:20 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff > David Stockhoff wrote: > However, in TUotNS, he dives deep down to drowned Nessus with no problem > because he is an aquastor who cannot be killed. When the gun of the Tower > fires on him, he is struck, killed, and recovers instantly; there is no > reason to apply narrow concepts of "living" or "dead" to him now. Juturna > basically tells him this. Consider Sev in his role of Apu-Punchau. He was an aquastor, but he was able to be killed by his people. He self-resurrected only when the light of the New Sun reached him. All of Sev's other resurrections on Urth can be explained as New-Sun-powered miracles, including the gun in the Tower, avern poisoning, etc. But the situation in TUotNS is different; he experiences breathing water like a new type of air. It's not at all like his earlier ordeals of long submersion, which were like drowning (or actually were drowning). I think that Juturna granted him the gift of water-breathing at their encounter in the throne room. She said saving him from drowning was something she had not yet done, but would do because he said. Severian believed that Juturna saved him from drowning in the Gyoll in his youth, but he was wrong -- the skull he found and placed in the tomb was his own. What emerged from the Gyoll was his first aquastor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 11 Dec 2008, 19:57 follows, by subject match Dave Tallman > Witz--- > > Two thoughts: > > First, I am not sure Severian's thought needs to refer to a black hole. It sounds to me like what happens at the heart of a normal star. There is immense pressure and matter becomes plasma. Ah, I was unaware of that. > Second, it just happens to be true that Jerry Pournelle is a nutjob and his theory is impossible. that as well. but wacky theories are the bread and butter of SF, no? > But it raises a good point, and what scraps of Lexicon Urthus I can read suggest parallel thinking. And that is this---that, IF Wolfe intended Urth to be of great age (millions of years) so that he could depict the sun as red and dying (as depicted in The Time Machine), THEN he would have had to deal with the problem of its ballooning into a red giant, eventually swallowing all 4 inner planets) in around 5 billion years---because that's the Main Sequence evolutionary path for a yellow star with the sun's mass, and that's how long it would take. He could have dealt with this in the following ways, by: > > -Ignoring stellar physics and making shit up, or convincing us that Urth is 5 billion years older > > -Suggesting that humans or Hieros plugged a hole in the Sun to stop its evolution > > -Imagining that some unlikely event arose RANDOMLY to knock the Sun off its normal course of evolution > > -Appealing to myth to force some other kind of ending to the Sun > But the last two work very well with one another and with the text. First, there is a Black Worm or Wolf or Panther or Dragon eating the Sun in every mythology. It's one of the main reasons for a hero to arise and go forth to die in combat with powerful beings to save the dying land. Second, there has always been speculation about the possibility of a spontaneous black hole developing in (or a very small one falling into?) the Sun. It's unlikely for it to actually happen, but it's a solid sci-fi explanation for bringing a mythical element into the story. And one way to summarize TBotNS is that it does exactly that over and over---not science fantasy but science MYTHOLOGY. > > Finally, it lets Wolfe set the story whenever he damn well wants to, and Urth can grow cold and die long before any stellar physicist can complain that the proper evolutionary track has been violated. I suppose the 2nd point, about the Hieros doesn't conflict with the 3rd and 4th points you make. I think, yeah, Wolfe is working with a micrcosmic apocatastasis here, so the myth comes first, and anything else is just something to make that somewhat plausible. > BTW, I have a mostly-cleaned-up PDF of all 5 books. Shall I send you this PDF? Yes PLEASE. ~Witz ate: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:21:44 +0000 > From: "Son of Witz" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 11 Dec 2008, 20:04 follows, by subject match Son of Witz > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Tallman [mailto:davetallman at msn.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:20 AM > To: urth at lists.urth.net > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > > David Stockhoff wrote: > > However, in TUotNS, he dives deep down to drowned Nessus with no problem > > because he is an aquastor who cannot be killed. When the gun of the Tower > > fires on him, he is struck, killed, and recovers instantly; there is no > > reason to apply narrow concepts of "living" or "dead" to him now. Juturna > > basically tells him this. > Consider Sev in his role of Apu-Punchau. He was an aquastor, but he was able > to be killed by his people. He self-resurrected only when the light of the > New Sun reached him. All of Sev's other resurrections on Urth can be > explained as New-Sun-powered miracles, including the gun in the Tower, avern > poisoning, etc. But the situation in TUotNS is different; he experiences > breathing water like a new type of air. It's not at all like his earlier > ordeals of long submersion, which were like drowning (or actually were > drowning). > > I think that Juturna granted him the gift of water-breathing at their > encounter in the throne room. She said saving him from drowning was > something she had not yet done, but would do because he said. Severian > believed that Juturna saved him from drowning in the Gyoll in his youth, but > he was wrong -- the skull he found and placed in the tomb was his own. What > emerged from the Gyoll was his first aquastor. I'm about to come to these chapters again, but I think you're onto something. I've been pretty convinced that Sev died in Gyoll in the very beginning as well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 11 Dec 2008, 20:37 follows, by subject match Son of Witz That makes sense! I thought Juturna was referring to the next Severian's drowning in Gyoll, which would mean there are not 2 (which I have argued against before) but an infinite series of Severians (which is insane). But this is better. Although I still don't understand the corpse in the tomb where Severian played. And now that I understand that he did not move into a new body on the starsailship but was recreated by Tzadkiel, I don't understand why his face was changed when he returned from Yesod. Valeria recognized him for the first time then. ...I asked the chiliarch whether he had been a junior officer when I sat the Phoenix Throne. "No, Autarch. I was only a boy." "Yet clearly you recall me." "It's my duty to know the House Absolute, Autarch. There are pictures and busts of you in some parts of it." "They..." The voice was so weak I scarcely heard it. I turned to make sure it was indeed Valeria who spoke. "They don't really look as you did. They look the way I thought---" I waited, wondering. She waved a hand. It was a weak old woman's gesture. "As I thought you might when you came back to me, back to our family tower in the Old Citadel. They look the way you do now." She laughed, and began to sob. It couldn't be age. Severian has been gone for weeks or months at most. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:20:19 -0700 > From: "Dave Tallman" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: urth at lists.urth.net > > > I think that Juturna granted him the gift of water-breathing at their > encounter in the throne room. She said saving him from drowning was > something she had not yet done, but would do because he said. Severian > believed that Juturna saved him from drowning in the Gyoll in his youth, but > he was wrong -- the skull he found and placed in the tomb was his own. What > emerged from the Gyoll was his first aquastor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Duffy — 11 Dec 2008, 20:45 in reply to David Stockhoff > On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, David Stockhoff wrote: > And now that I understand that he did not move into a new body on the > starsailship but was recreated by Tzadkiel, I don't understand why his face > was changed when he returned from Yesod. Valeria recognized him for the first > time then. > ...I asked the chiliarch whether he had been a junior officer when I sat the > Phoenix Throne. > "No, Autarch. I was only a boy." > "Yet clearly you recall me." > "It's my duty to know the House Absolute, Autarch. There are pictures and > busts of you in some parts of it." > "They..." > The voice was so weak I scarcely heard it. I turned to make sure it was > indeed Valeria who spoke. > "They don't really look as you did. They look the way I thought---" > I waited, wondering. > She waved a hand. It was a weak old woman's gesture. "As I thought you might > when you came back to me, back to our family tower in the Old Citadel. They > look the way you do now." She laughed, and began to sob. > > It couldn't be age. Severian has been gone for weeks or months at most. He looks younger/less damaged, I assume. David Duffy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dave Tallman — 11 Dec 2008, 21:29 follows, by subject match David Duffy > David Stockhoff wrote: > Although I still don't understand the corpse in the tomb where Severian > played. And now that I understand that he did not move into a new body on > the starsailship but was recreated by Tzadkiel, I don't understand why his > face was changed when he returned from Yesod. Valeria recognized him for the > first time then. The mausolem is indeed a mystery. One thing we know for sure is that it is Severian's. "I have disturbed my own tomb, and I go to lie in it." It contains three closed coffins and two empty coffins. Who could be in them? I like the suggestion in Lexicon Urthus that the Sev of UotNS went back in time and had it constructed for himself when he got old. The rose, spaceship, and fountain markings on the tomb look like a coded message about the New Sun. The three closed coffins could be the remains of Odilio, Pega, and Thais. Perhaps the two open coffins were for Severian and whoever was his wife in his old age. Perhaps they were raided by tomb robbers or relic-seekers. For the face-changing issue, they are talking about how the faces of rulers are idealized and ennobled in portraits and sculptures. He didn't look that noble in real life, even on the day he came to claim Valeria. But now he does -- after his character-transformative experiences of becoming the New Sun and the Conciliator. Valeria laughs and cries because now it is too late for her. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 11 Dec 2008, 21:35 follows, by subject match Dave Tallman > The mausolem is indeed a mystery. One thing we know for sure is that > it is Severian's. "I have disturbed my own tomb, and I go to lie in > it." It contains three closed coffins and two empty coffins. Who could > be in them? > > I like the suggestion in Lexicon Urthus that the Sev of UotNS went > back in time and had it constructed for himself when he got old. The > rose, spaceship, and fountain markings on the tomb look like a coded > message about the New Sun. The three closed coffins could be the > remains of Odilio, Pega, and Thais. Perhaps the two open coffins were > for Severian and whoever was his wife in his old age. Perhaps they > were raided by tomb robbers or relic-seekers. Interesting, I hadn't considered those three characters. good suggestion. > For the face-changing issue, they are talking about how the faces of > rulers are idealized and ennobled in portraits and sculptures. He > didn't look that noble in real life, even on the day he came to claim > Valeria. But now he does -- after his character-transformative > experiences of becoming the New Sun and the Conciliator. Valeria > laughs and cries because now it is too late for her. Though his portrait as Autarch is horribly scarred, at least on the coin. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Said you gave him a chrisos like none he'd seen." "He may return it, if he wishes. Do you want to see one of our coins?" ... I passed a chrisos across the table. He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. "Gold all right. Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. Don't suppose you noticed." The Chrisos Severian has is from his reign, one Idas brought with when he boarded along with Sev. unless I'm mistaken. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Watkins — 11 Dec 2008, 21:44 in reply to Son of Witz > On 12/11/08, Son of Witz wrote: > > > For the face-changing issue, they are talking about how the faces of > > > rulers are idealized and ennobled in portraits and sculptures. He > > > didn't look that noble in real life, even on the day he came to claim > > > Valeria. But now he does -- after his character-transformative > > > experiences of becoming the New Sun and the Conciliator. Valeria > > > laughs and cries because now it is too late for her. > Though his portrait as Autarch is horribly scarred, at least on the coin. > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > Said you gave him a chrisos like none he'd seen." > "He may return it, if he wishes. Do you want to see one of our coins?" > ... > I passed a chrisos across the table. > He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. "Gold all right. Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. Don't suppose you noticed." > > The Chrisos Severian has is from his reign, one Idas brought with when he boarded along with Sev. unless I'm mistaken. Yes. Severian's face was scarred by Agia in Citadel. When he returns as the New Sun, his face is healed. That, and the many years that have passed for her, is why Valeria doesn't recognize him at first. > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 11 Dec 2008, 22:32 in reply to Son of Witz > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave Tallman [mailto:davetallman at msn.com] > I'm about to come to these chapters again, but I think you're onto > something. > I've been pretty convinced that Sev died in Gyoll in the very beginning as > well. I can see water-breathing as a useful edit to make in an aquastor, the exchange of water could speed the accumulation of "real" matter and get them off dependence on the sustaining machinery all the sooner. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 11 Dec 2008, 23:34 in reply to Son of Witz > > First, there is a Black Worm or Wolf or Panther or Dragon eating the Sun > > in every mythology. Yes, Caput and Cauda Draconis (them Head and Tail of the dragon) are associated with lunar and solar eclipses. I think Caput is actually the one associated with Solar eclipses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caput_Draconis Caput being the ascending or north-going and cauda the descending or south-going node of the Moon's orbit in reference to the Sun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_node How many dragons are there in the sky? . It's one of the main reasons for a hero to arise and > > go forth to die in combat with powerful beings to save the dying land. > > Second, there has always been speculation about the possibility of a > > spontaneous black hole developing in (or a very small one falling into?) > > the Sun. It's unlikely for it to actually happen, but it's a solid sci-fi > > explanation for bringing a mythical element into the story. And one way > > to summarize TBotNS is that it does exactly that over and over---not > > science fantasy but science MYTHOLOGY. > > > > Finally, it lets Wolfe set the story whenever he damn well wants to, and > > Urth can grow cold and die long before any stellar physicist can complain > > that the proper evolutionary track has been violated. > I suppose the 2nd point, about the Hieros doesn't conflict with the 3rd > and 4th points you make. I think, yeah, Wolfe is working with a > micrcosmic apocatastasis here, so the myth comes first, and anything else > is just something to make that somewhat plausible. > > BTW, I have a mostly-cleaned-up PDF of all 5 books. Shall I send you this > > PDF? > Yes PLEASE. > ~Witz > > > > ate: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:21:44 +0000 > From: "Son of Witz" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I too have a hard time buying any of the explanations of where the text > > clues us into any astroengineering. > > > > along that line of reasoning, the Old Autarch's dialogue could possibly > > add some support. From the "Autarch of the Commonwealth chapter in > > Citadel: > > > > We know the Hierodules are behind the Autarchy. When the Autarch says > > "we" he probably means the Hierarchs and the state. So, it could be that > > the condemnation is that they were held in barbarism. That they were > > 'condemned' to a lesser evil than that of Erebus's brand of evil. > > > > Also, Severian says in Urth XII > > "I felt my consciousness falling in upon itself as the matter does in the > > heart of a star" > > > > the combination of these two bits of text may support the final potential > > explanation that the Lexicon Urthus gives for why a black hole might be > > in the heart of the sun. > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > "Finally there is a theory of how there might already be a black hole in > > the heart of our star...Among the many possibilities presented by > > Pournelle, one seems especially germane: "there's a black hole of around > > 1% of the Sun's mass dead center in our star, and the Sun shines because > > matter falling into the hole gives off energy; there's no fusion in there > > at all" > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > > > Now, I don't know much about this stuff and had never heard that theory. > > Given that it's not common knowledge (as far as I know) its' interesting > > that Severian, of limited education, would just sort of understand this > > as a common explanation of what goes on in the heart of a star. This > > makes me think that Wolfe is probably buying into this theory, at least > > as far as BoTNS is concerned. Which, would, it seems make the black hole > > a natural event, just as entropy of the universe is a natural event. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > --- > > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > > Virus Database (VPS): 081210-0, 12/10/2008 > > Tested on: 12/11/2008 1:55:46 PM > > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 11 Dec 2008, 23:39 in reply to David Duffy Severian has horrible facial scars all the time he is ruling, from Agia smacking him with her leopardman claws, I forget what Wolfe called them. . > On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, David Stockhoff wrote: > > And now that I understand that he did not move into a new body on the > > starsailship but was recreated by Tzadkiel, I don't understand why his > > face > > was changed when he returned from Yesod. Valeria recognized him for the > > first > > time then. > > ...I asked the chiliarch whether he had been a junior officer when I sat > > the > > Phoenix Throne. > > "No, Autarch. I was only a boy." > > "Yet clearly you recall me." > > "It's my duty to know the House Absolute, Autarch. There are pictures > > and > > busts of you in some parts of it." > > "They..." > > The voice was so weak I scarcely heard it. I turned to make sure it was > > indeed Valeria who spoke. > > "They don't really look as you did. They look the way I thought---" > > I waited, wondering. > > She waved a hand. It was a weak old woman's gesture. "As I thought you > > might > > when you came back to me, back to our family tower in the Old Citadel. > > They > > look the way you do now." She laughed, and began to sob. > > > > It couldn't be age. Severian has been gone for weeks or months at most. > He looks younger/less damaged, I assume. > > David Duffy. > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 12 Dec 2008, 14:58 follows, by subject match brunians at brunians.org On the first point, Severian writes this in TCotA before he experiences and writes TUotNS: Then those who walk the corridors walked back to the time when he was young, and my own story---as I have given it here in so many pages---began. The second thing is this. He was not returned to his own time but became himself a walker of the corridors. I know now the identity of the man called the Head of Day, and why Hildegrin, who was too near, perished when we met, and why the witches fled. I know too in whose mausoleum I tarried as a child, that little building of stone with its rose, its fountain, and its flying ship all graven. I have disturbed my own tomb, and now I go to lie in it. Problems: ---He can't yet know that HD/AP is himself in his own future, as well as an aquastor who presumably is immortal. Later he is stunned when he finds out. So he must be another Severian---Sev 1 out of 2, or else a corpse the single Severian left behind. ---If the man in the tomb is Severian 1, who put him in it? You can build your own tomb but you can't put yourself in it. Also, you wouldn't build your own tomb unless you expected to die, and any Severian who is mature and alive before Severian himself is born knows he won't ever die, because otherwise, what would he be doing there? ---If the time-walkers did take him back to the time of his youth, he would have been dead then, or else he would have been a threat to the Throne. They would have had to go to the Autarch and say, Build us a tomb, we have a corpse of a failed god. It's true that Apheta and Tzadkiel are unclear on Severian's fate if he fails; perhaps Severian 1's fate is to be put to sleep in a coffin, honored and forgotten, in a time when no one knows him. (Do the coffins preserve bodies somehow? If so, isn't there a danger of Severian merging with the corpse, whatever it is? If not, could the corpse be an aquastor corpse?) ---But if the corpse is Sev 1, he can't also be the Sleeper because the Sleeper is Sev 2. It may make sense that Sev 2 lies in a coffin while the other of the 5 gods do not, but who are the other 2 there and when did he get put in the coffin? Did the Sevs merge at some time? On the second point, your theory sounds good. Severian is a god when he returns to Urth. It would basically be coincidence, then, that his "icons" and his god-self resemble one another ... but not if you see one as the echo of the other. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:29:49 -0700 From: "Dave Tallman" Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines To: urth at lists.urth.net Message-ID: <1bf4dd40812111329j659754f9i9c4727c8374b7f70 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" David Stockhoff wrote: > > Although I still don't understand the corpse in the tomb where Severian > > played. And now that I understand that he did not move into a new body on > > the starsailship but was recreated by Tzadkiel, I don't understand why his > > face was changed when he returned from Yesod. Valeria recognized him for the > > first time then. The mausolem is indeed a mystery. One thing we know for sure is that it is Severian's. "I have disturbed my own tomb, and I go to lie in it." It contains three closed coffins and two empty coffins. Who could be in them? I like the suggestion in Lexicon Urthus that the Sev of UotNS went back in time and had it constructed for himself when he got old. The rose, spaceship, and fountain markings on the tomb look like a coded message about the New Sun. The three closed coffins could be the remains of Odilio, Pega, and Thais. Perhaps the two open coffins were for Severian and whoever was his wife in his old age. Perhaps they were raided by tomb robbers or relic-seekers. For the face-changing issue, they are talking about how the faces of rulers are idealized and ennobled in portraits and sculptures. He didn't look that noble in real life, even on the day he came to claim Valeria. But now he does -- after his character-transformative experiences of becoming the New Sun and the Conciliator. Valeria laughs and cries because now it is too late for her. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 12 Dec 2008, 15:01 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff Witz wrote: Though his portrait as Autarch is horribly scarred, at least on the coin. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Said you gave him a chrisos like none he'd seen." "He may return it, if he wishes. Do you want to see one of our coins?" ... I passed a chrisos across the table. He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. "Gold all right. Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. Don't suppose you noticed." The Chrisos Severian has is from his reign, one Idas brought with when he boarded along with Sev. unless I'm mistaken. If Severian returns significantly more cut up than when he left, that would also explain why Valeria weeps, but not why he was depicted that way in the House Absolute. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 12 Dec 2008, 15:21 in reply to David Stockhoff > On Dec 12, 2008, at 7:01 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > Witz wrote: > > Though his portrait as Autarch is horribly scarred, at least on the > coin. > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > Said you gave him a chrisos like none he'd seen." "He may return it, > if he wishes. Do you want to see one of our coins?" ... > I passed a chrisos across the table. He examined it, bit it, and > gave it back to me. "Gold all right. Looks a trifle like you, 'cept > he seems to have got himself cut up. Don't suppose you noticed." > The Chrisos Severian has is from his reign, one Idas brought with > when he boarded along with Sev. unless I'm mistaken. > > > > If Severian returns significantly more cut up than when he left, > that would also explain why Valeria weeps, but not why he was > depicted that way in the House Absolute. I don't follow. he's scarred about the time he becomes Autarch. so when he reigns in the House Absolute, he's scarred. when he returns later, he's fixed, but he has a smaller new/different scar from his fight with the Monarch's guards, but that happens after the Chrisos scene above. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 12 Dec 2008, 15:23 follows, by subject match Son of Witz And that passage occurs after Severian returns from Yesod, so that makes even better sense than if he is MORE scarred. Who is the prophetess with the Autarch Valeria when Severian steps forth into the audience room? I thought it was Herena, but Herena is from the time of Typhon. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:44:06 -0500 > From: "John Watkins" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: > <93d4039f0812111344q124ee25fy6dcdf746331dd170 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 12/11/08, Son of Witz wrote: > > > > > > For the face-changing issue, they are talking about how the faces of > > > > rulers are idealized and ennobled in portraits and sculptures. He > > > > didn't look that noble in real life, even on the day he came to claim > > > > Valeria. But now he does -- after his character-transformative > > > > experiences of becoming the New Sun and the Conciliator. Valeria > > > > laughs and cries because now it is too late for her. > > > > > > Though his portrait as Autarch is horribly scarred, at least on the coin. > > """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" > > Said you gave him a chrisos like none he'd seen." > > "He may return it, if he wishes. Do you want to see one of our coins?" > > ... > > I passed a chrisos across the table. > > He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. "Gold all right. Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. Don't suppose you noticed." > > > > The Chrisos Severian has is from his reign, one Idas brought with when he boarded along with Sev. unless I'm mistaken. > > > Yes. Severian's face was scarred by Agia in Citadel. When he returns > as the New Sun, his face is healed. That, and the many years that > have passed for her, is why Valeria doesn't recognize him at first. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 12 Dec 2008, 17:06 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff > On the first point, Severian writes this in TCotA before he experiences > and writes TUotNS: Then those who walk the corridors walked back to the > time when he was young, and my own story---as I have given it here in so > many pages---began. The second thing is this. He was not returned to his > own time but became himself a walker of the corridors. I know now the > identity of the man called the Head of Day, and why Hildegrin, who was > too near, perished when we met, and why the witches fled. I know too in > whose mausoleum I tarried as a child, that little building of stone with > its rose, its fountain, and its flying ship all graven. I have disturbed > my own tomb, and now I go to lie in it. Problems: ---He can't yet know > that HD/AP is himself in his own future, as well as an aquastor who > presumably is immortal. Later he is stunned when he finds out. So he > must be another Severian---Sev 1 out of 2, or else a corpse the single > Severian left behind. The quote above, I believe, is accurate speculation by Severian. Good Intuition. He's not "stunned" in tUotNS, he just marvels at it. He encounters his healed face, 10 years older than when he saw Apu Punchau, and he now looks like Apu Punchau whereas he didn't see the likeness before. He's marveling at this 'new face' not shocked to understand his identity. There is only One Severian Consciousness. Many bodies, but only one consciousness. Consciousness is primary in Being. There are not mulitiple Severians unless there are multiple consciousnesses. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Millman — 12 Dec 2008, 17:15 in reply to David Stockhoff Folks, > On Friday 12 December 2008, David Stockhoff wrote: > . . . an aquastor who presumably is immortal I don't know where this idea got its start, but I don't believe that there's any reason at all to believe that aquastors are immortal. Severian certainly gets his body replaced often enough; but it seems that between replacements, he ages and suffers injuries like anybody else. Best, Mark Millman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 12 Dec 2008, 17:27 follows, by subject match Mark Millman > From: Mark Millman [mailto:markjmillman at gmail.com] > Folks, > > On Friday 12 December 2008, David Stockhoff wrote: > > . . . an aquastor who presumably is immortal > I don't know where this idea got its start, but I don't believe that > there's any reason at all to believe that aquastors are immortal. > Severian certainly gets his body replaced often enough; but it seems > that between replacements, he ages and suffers injuries like anybody > else. > > Best, > > Mark Millman It's Severian who is immortal. His body doesn't matter. tUotNS makes it very clear that Severian is NOT his body, which dies again and again. by the middle, he's clearly a cosmic entity, a New Sun, a White Fountain, a HEAVENLY BODY, and he puppeteers his little Severian puppet by strings that would strangle half of Briah. In BoTNS, there were many deaths too, though they were covert. In UoTNS, the deaths are overt. I believe the point of these many deaths in UotNS is to illustrate this to him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Millman — 12 Dec 2008, 17:35 in reply to Son of Witz Dear Son of Witz, > On Friday 12 December 2008, you wrote: > It's Severian who is immortal. His body > doesn't matter. tUotNS makes it very > clear that Severian is NOT his body, > which dies again and again. by the > middle, he's clearly a cosmic entity, a > New Sun, a White Fountain, a HEAV- > ENLY BODY, and he puppeteers his > little Severian puppet by strings that > would strangle half of Briah. In BoTNS, > there were many deaths too, though > they were covert. In UoTNS, the deaths > are overt. I believe the point of these > many deaths in UotNS is to illustrate > this to him. Yes, it's Severian who is (physically) immortal; thank you for the support. The fact that until he brings the New Sun that immortality is by the agency of body-replacement with aquastors seems to have confused some people, as there have been several references lately to aquastors themselves being immortal, which does not seem to be textually supported. Best, Mark Millman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 12 Dec 2008, 19:01 in reply to Mark Millman > Mark Millman wrote: > Yes, it's Severian who is (physically) immortal; thank you for the > support. The fact that until he brings the New Sun that immortality > is by the agency of body-replacement with aquastors seems to have > confused some people, as there have been several references lately to > aquastors themselves being immortal, which does not seem to be > textually supported. Aquastors begin as machine-sustained images that need not age, but can, as the machine operator's wish and skill may allow. An aquastor that lasts long enough to accumulate its own matter via eating, etc. can become self-sustaining and wean off machine support and thus begin to age and accumulate scars like a natural individual would. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dave Tallman — 12 Dec 2008, 20:36 in reply to David Stockhoff > David Stockhoff wrote: > Problems: ---He can't yet know > that HD/AP is himself in his own future, as well as an aquastor who > presumably is immortal. Later he is stunned when he finds out. So he > must be another Severian---Sev 1 out of 2, or else a corpse the single > Severian left behind. ---If the man in the tomb is Severian 1, who put > him in it? You can build your own tomb but you can't put yourself in it. > Also, you wouldn't build your own tomb unless you expected to die, and > any Severian who is mature and alive before Severian himself is born > knows he won't ever die, because otherwise, what would he be doing > there? I believe these assumptions about immortality of aquastors, and even Severian himself, to be unwarranted. Aquastors can age, be injured, or die. One of the B,F and O trio even say that all of us can be regarded as aquastors of the Increate. Severian knows that he himself will eventually die -- he doesn't have to keep resurrecting if there is no reason for it, after all. Neither does once being connected to the White Fountain make him immortal, since that connection ceases after it has served its purpose. I see no reason why he cannot plan his own tomb and eventually be buried there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dave Tallman — 12 Dec 2008, 20:42 in reply to David Stockhoff > David Stockhoff wrote: > Who is the prophetess with the Autarch Valeria when Severian steps forth into the audience room? I thought it was Herena, but Herena is from the time of Typhon. > Jader's sister. Jader was a boy Severian healed in Thrax (in SotL). His sister's full name is never given. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 12 Dec 2008, 21:36 follows, by subject match Dave Tallman > Witz wrote: > If Severian returns significantly more cut up than when he left, > that would also explain why Valeria weeps, but not why he was > depicted that way in the House Absolute. I don't follow. he's scarred about the time he becomes Autarch. so when he reigns in the House Absolute, he's scarred. when he returns later, he's fixed, but he has a smaller new/different scar from his fight with the Monarch's guards, but that happens after the Chrisos scene above. ------------------------------ Right. The argument is that portraits of Autarch Severian make him look younger and better than he is---even though the chrisos shows him scarred---so when he is healed, he looks like he did before he was scarred and married Valeria. Why a coin would show him scarred while his portraits show him unscarred, I don't know. Is it possible that the portraits Valeria has seen are not of Autarch Severian, whom she knew anyway, but icons of the Conciliator? And that they looked different enough that no one guessed they were the same? It would be a bit like Jesus showing up in short hair and body armor and an assault rifle, then reappearing with long hair and robes and a halo. Suddenly you'd get it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 12 Dec 2008, 21:48 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Tallman [mailto:davetallman at msn.com] > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:36 PM > To: urth at lists.urth.net > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > > David Stockhoff wrote: > > Problems: ---He can't yet know > > that HD/AP is himself in his own future, as well as an aquastor who > > presumably is immortal. Later he is stunned when he finds out. So he > > must be another Severian---Sev 1 out of 2, or else a corpse the single > > Severian left behind. ---If the man in the tomb is Severian 1, who put > > him in it? You can build your own tomb but you can't put yourself in it. > > Also, you wouldn't build your own tomb unless you expected to die, and > > any Severian who is mature and alive before Severian himself is born > > knows he won't ever die, because otherwise, what would he be doing > > there? > I believe these assumptions about immortality of aquastors, and even > Severian himself, to be unwarranted. Aquastors can age, be injured, or > die. One of the B,F and O trio even say that all of us can be regarded > as aquastors of the Increate. > > Severian knows that he himself will eventually die -- he doesn't have to > keep resurrecting if there is no reason for it, after all. Neither does > once being connected to the White Fountain make him immortal, since that > connection ceases after it has served its purpose. > > I see no reason why he cannot plan his own tomb and eventually be buried > there. Immortal may be the wrong word. Severian's various bodies live and die, but his consciousness does not die and is continous between the "lives" of his various bodies. And it probably doesn't die when he finally rests in his tomb. Midway through Urth, he very clearly understands his body is a puppet. Puppet of what? A white fountain? a New Sun? what powers do these have to raise the dead if this is all mechanical astroengineering? It's METAPHOR. It's a HEAVENLY BODY. Severian's consciousness is up there in the cosmos, and it has many instantiations in the temporal world. Just, as I believe, the LOGOS does, which is why I've generally tried to use Logos rather than Christ, because everyone seems to get caught up in the specific history of this Jesus character as if that's all there is to the Logos. as if the concept of the Logos didn't preexist Jesus. As if the concept of a redemptive figure that must die so that life can come anew didn't preexist Christ. This is what I'm getting at, nothing Moral or Doctrinal, or, *shudder*, historical. But that bit about all of us being regarded as aquastors of the increate is dead on. That's what a lot of this is about. Christ isn't the only instance of the God, we all are, that's why one finds Christ in their hearts. God is right there. ~sonofwitz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 12 Dec 2008, 21:52 follows, by subject match Son of Witz > -----Original Message----- > From: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net] > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 01:36 PM > To: urth at lists.urth.net > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > > Witz wrote: > > If Severian returns significantly more cut up than when he left, > > that would also explain why Valeria weeps, but not why he was > > depicted that way in the House Absolute. > I don't follow. he's scarred about the time he becomes Autarch. so > when he reigns in the House Absolute, he's scarred. > when he returns later, he's fixed, but he has a smaller new/different > scar from his fight with the Monarch's guards, but that happens after > the Chrisos scene above. > > > ------------------------------ > > > Right. The argument is that portraits of Autarch Severian make him look younger and better than he is---even though the chrisos shows him scarred---so when he is healed, he looks like he did before he was scarred and married Valeria. > > Why a coin would show him scarred while his portraits show him unscarred, I don't know. > > Is it possible that the portraits Valeria has seen are not of Autarch Severian, whom she knew anyway, but icons of the Conciliator? And that they looked different enough that no one guessed they were the same? It would be a bit like Jesus showing up in short hair and body armor and an assault rifle, then reappearing with long hair and robes and a halo. Suddenly you'd get it. I like that image. When I was about 15 I did a drawing of Jesus and His Disciples packing aussalt rifles. "Jesus is back and he's pissed" (speaking of such heresies, has anyone seen Bill Hicks's stand-up comedy about how if Christ returned the LAST thing he'd want to see is a crucifix on his followers? seriously funny) In my reread I haven't yet got to any unscarred portraits, and had forgotten them if they're there. But I had just read that bit about the scarred face on the Chrisos, so I'm probably wrong about the portraits. I can't remember clearly. will read that soon though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 12 Dec 2008, 23:30 follows, by subject match Son of Witz Then Severian CAN die. But after he becomes a god, can he die? Is there a point where he is no longer a god---Ushas---and can die? > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:01:18 -0600 (CST) > From: "Jeff Wilson" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > Mark Millman wrote: > > Yes, it's Severian who is (physically) immortal; thank you for the > > support. The fact that until he brings the New Sun that immortality > > is by the agency of body-replacement with aquastors seems to have > > confused some people, as there have been several references lately to > > aquastors themselves being immortal, which does not seem to be > > textually supported. > > > Aquastors begin as machine-sustained images that need not age, but can, as > the machine operator's wish and skill may allow. An aquastor that lasts > long enough to accumulate its own matter via eating, etc. can become > self-sustaining and wean off machine support and thus begin to age and > accumulate scars like a natural individual would. > > > > > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steve McCann — 20 Dec 2008, 22:13 in reply to David Stockhoff This is a little tangential, but just thought I'd share: this thread re:Abaia has reminded me strongly of an artwork by Adriane Fleet: http://kitsunenoir.com/blog/2008/12/10/the-desktop-wallpaper-project-featuring-adrian-fleet/ -s > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 11:55 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > Witz--- > > Two thoughts: > > First, I am not sure Severian's thought needs to refer to a black hole. It > sounds to me like what happens at the heart of a normal star. There is > immense pressure and matter becomes plasma. > > Second, it just happens to be true that Jerry Pournelle is a nutjob and his > theory is impossible. > > But it raises a good point, and what scraps of Lexicon Urthus I can read > suggest parallel thinking. And that is this---that, IF Wolfe intended Urth > to be of great age (millions of years) so that he could depict the sun as > red and dying (as depicted in The Time Machine), THEN he would have had to > deal with the problem of its ballooning into a red giant, eventually > swallowing all 4 inner planets) in around 5 billion years---because that's > the Main Sequence evolutionary path for a yellow star with the sun's mass, > and that's how long it would take. He could have dealt with this in the > following ways, by: > > -Ignoring stellar physics and making shit up, or convincing us that Urth is > 5 billion years older > -Suggesting that humans or Hieros plugged a hole in the Sun to stop its > evolution > > -Imagining that some unlikely event arose RANDOMLY to knock the Sun off its > normal course of evolution > > -Appealing to myth to force some other kind of ending to the Sun > > I think the first is obviously out and I see little evidence for the > second, though it's possible. Nowhere is the worm in the Sun linked to crime > or punishment or the Hieros, and we know that when they brought the Fountain > (a white hole), they had to physically drag or throw it. There's no record > of a black hole passing Urth. Freezing the Sun's evolution would save Urth, > not kill it. > > (No idea what is supposed to happen when the 2 holes meet---would they just > cancel each other out and let the Sun go on for another 5 billion years? > Presumably; having a white sun would destroy life on Urth just as surely as > a black sun.) > > But the last two work very well with one another and with the text. First, > there is a Black Worm or Wolf or Panther or Dragon eating the Sun in every > mythology. It's one of the main reasons for a hero to arise and go forth to > die in combat with powerful beings to save the dying land. Second, there has > always been speculation about the possibility of a spontaneous black hole > developing in (or a very small one falling into?) the Sun. It's unlikely for > it to actually happen, but it's a solid sci-fi explanation for bringing a > mythical element into the story. And one way to summarize TBotNS is that it > does exactly that over and over---not science fantasy but science MYTHOLOGY. > > Finally, it lets Wolfe set the story whenever he damn well wants to, and > Urth can grow cold and die long before any stellar physicist can complain > that the proper evolutionary track has been violated. > BTW, I have a mostly-cleaned-up PDF of all 5 books. Shall I send you this > PDF? > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:21:44 +0000 > From: "Son of Witz" > Subject: Re: (urth) Abaia and the undines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 22 Dec 2008, 01:13 in reply to Steve McCann I love it. hilarious. > On Dec 20, 2008, at 2:13 PM, Steve McCann wrote: > This is a little tangential, but just thought I'd share: this thread > re:Abaia has reminded me strongly of an artwork by Adriane Fleet: > http://kitsunenoir.com/blog/2008/12/10/the-desktop-wallpaper-project-featuring-adrian-fleet/ > -s ------------------------------------------------------------------------------