Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS

I had forgotten that Tzadkiel's son fought and died in the judicial combat that confirmed Severian's success as Epitome. If Tzadkiel is the Demiurge, and the Demiurge is God, then that makes the son, well, his Son. Not sacrificed, but exposed to the risk of death, because Tzadkiel thought it wrong to judge Urth without putting something of his own on the block. Again, I am reminded of the theory that TBotNS presents parodies of the true religion, and the phrase in Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius that Wolfe has pointed at as an inspiration for TBotNS: "an atropious or banal reality."

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On 12/11/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

I had forgotten that Tzadkiel's son fought and died in the judicial combat that confirmed Severian's success as Epitome. If Tzadkiel is the Demiurge, and the Demiurge is God, then that makes the son, well, his Son. Not sacrificed, but exposed to the risk of death, because Tzadkiel thought it wrong to judge Urth without putting something of his own on the block. Again, I am reminded of the theory that TBotNS presents parodies of the true religion, and the phrase in Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius that Wolfe has pointed at as an inspiration for TBotNS: "an atropious or banal reality."

Yeah, but as I understand it, the Demiurge is NOT God. The Demiurge THINKS it's God. Half-Creator/ False-Creator. I'm not clear on how Christ as son of Yahweh fits in, but I believe that he exists as part of the Godhead, not as actual spawn of Yahweh. I don't know though. Surely there are many opinions. In a work like Valis or Divine Invasion, PKD shows a gnostic world where the Logos is a healing energy sent in from the true God into the realm of the Demiurge. With that sort of view, Christ is still elevated far beyond the false creator.

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------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:01:59 +0000 From: "Son of Witz" <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> Subject: Re: (urth) Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <W2548019216258801229025719 at webmail36> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I had forgotten that Tzadkiel's son fought and died in the judicial combat that confirmed Severian's success as Epitome. If Tzadkiel is the Demiurge, and the Demiurge is God, then that makes the son, well, his Son. Not sacrificed, but exposed to the risk of death, because Tzadkiel thought it wrong to judge Urth without putting something of his own on the block. Again, I am reminded of the theory that TBotNS presents parodies of the true religion, and the phrase in Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius that Wolfe has pointed at as an inspiration for TBotNS: "an atropious or banal reality."

Yeah, but as I understand it, the Demiurge is NOT God. The Demiurge THINKS it's God. Half-Creator/ False-Creator. I'm not clear on how Christ as son of Yahweh fits in, but I believe that he exists as part of the Godhead, not as actual spawn of Yahweh. I don't know though. Surely there are many opinions. In a work like Valis or Divine Invasion, PKD shows a gnostic world where the Logos is a healing energy sent in from the true God into the realm of the Demiurge. With that sort of view, Christ is still elevated far beyond the false creator.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:02 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote: Which is perfect, if you accept the parody theory. After all, the Demiurge is a parody of God. BTW, I meant "atrocious" in my quote below. I think this term can apply to actual atrocities as well as travesties of Christian form, and nothing is more banal than a sci-fi cliche or a mundane explanation of a miracle. I think the Conciliator is exactly that: "a healing energy sent in from the true God into the realm of the Demiurge." Tzadkiel knows he is no Demiurge, but he is clearly the higher being in charge of our creation. To Urth, he is God in all the ways the Increate is not---the way the "hairy thunderer" Yahweh is everything the Christian God is not. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:01:59 +0000 From: "Son of Witz" <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> Subject: Re: (urth) Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> <urth at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <W2548019216258801229025719 at webmail36> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I had forgotten that Tzadkiel's son fought and died in the judicial >combat that confirmed Severian's success as Epitome.>>If Tzadkiel is the Demiurge, and the Demiurge is God, then that makes >the son, well, his Son. Not sacrificed, but exposed to the risk of >death, because Tzadkiel thought it wrong to judge Urth without putting >something of his own on the block.>>Again, I am reminded of the theory that TBotNS presents parodies of the >true religion, and the phrase in Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius that Wolfe >has pointed at as an inspiration for TBotNS: "an atropious or banal >reality." Yeah, but as I understand it, the Demiurge is NOT God. The Demiurge THINKS it's God. Half-Creator/ False-Creator. I'm not clear on how Christ as son of Yahweh fits in, but I believe that he exists as part of the Godhead, not as actual spawn of Yahweh. I don't know though. Surely there are many opinions. In a work like Valis or Divine Invasion, PKD shows a gnostic world where the Logos is a healing energy sent in from the true God into the realm of the Demiurge. With that sort of view, Christ is still elevated far beyond the false creator. ------------------------------ avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com>: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 081211-0, 12/11/2008 Tested on: 12/11/2008 7:02:52 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. _______________________________________________

On Dec 11, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Jordon Flato wrote: Well, a big big difference here is that I don't see Tzadkiel asking for worship, or denying the Increate, or putting himself in place of the Increate. He acknowledges his nullity in the face of the Increate, and also never demands worship. The Demiurge demands worship, and tries to set himself up as God with a capital G. On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:02 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net wrote: Which is perfect, if you accept the parody theory. After all, the Demiurge is a parody of God. BTW, I meant "atrocious" in my quote below. I think this term can apply to actual atrocities as well as travesties of Christian form, and nothing is more banal than a sci-fi cliche or a mundane explanation of a miracle. I think the Conciliator is exactly that: "a healing energy sent in from the true God into the realm of the Demiurge." Tzadkiel knows he is no Demiurge, but he is clearly the higher being in charge of our creation. To Urth, he is God in all the ways the Increate is not--- the way the "hairy thunderer" Yahweh is everything the Christian God is not. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:01:59 +0000 From: "Son of Witz" <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> Subject: Re: (urth) Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <W2548019216258801229025719 at webmail36> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I had forgotten that Tzadkiel's son fought and died in the judicial combat that confirmed Severian's success as Epitome. If Tzadkiel is the Demiurge, and the Demiurge is God, then that makes the son, well, his Son. Not sacrificed, but exposed to the risk of death, because Tzadkiel thought it wrong to judge Urth without putting something of his own on the block. Again, I am reminded of the theory that TBotNS presents parodies of the true religion, and the phrase in Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius that Wolfe has pointed at as an inspiration for TBotNS: "an atropious or banal reality."

Yeah, but as I understand it, the Demiurge is NOT God. The Demiurge THINKS it's God. Half-Creator/ False-Creator. I'm not clear on how Christ as son of Yahweh fits in, but I believe that he exists as part of the Godhead, not as actual spawn of Yahweh. I don't know though. Surely there are many opinions. In a work like Valis or Divine Invasion, PKD shows a gnostic world where the Logos is a healing energy sent in from the true God into the realm of the Demiurge. With that sort of view, Christ is still elevated far beyond the false creator. avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 081211-0, 12/11/2008 Tested on: 12/11/2008 7:02:52 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. _______________________________________________

---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:51:35 -0800 From: "Jordon Flato" <jordonflato at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <273409710812111651g4b3059c6kac072c41d63af90e at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, a big big difference here is that I don't see Tzadkiel asking for worship, or denying the Increate, or putting himself in place of the Increate. He acknowledges his nullity in the face of the Increate, and also never demands worship. The Demiurge demands worship, and tries to set himself up as God with a capital G. On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:02 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:

Which is perfect, if you accept the parody theory. After all, the Demiurge is a parody of God. BTW, I meant "atrocious" in my quote below. I think this term can apply to actual atrocities as well as travesties of Christian form, and nothing is more banal than a sci-fi cliche or a mundane explanation of a miracle. I think the Conciliator is exactly that: "a healing energy sent in from the true God into the realm of the Demiurge." Tzadkiel knows he is no Demiurge, but he is clearly the higher being in charge of our creation. To Urth, he is God in all the ways the Increate is not---the way the "hairy thunderer" Yahweh is everything the Christian God is not. ------------------------------

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 7:56 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote: Jordon & Witz--- It doesn't work perfectly for exactly those reasons. However, the pattern is so clear I don't think it can be denied. Also, for me there is little difference between Yahweh saying he is the Utmost and humans thinking he is, not realizing he is simply a sun god and that a bigger God lies above and behind him. This is partly because humans lie and make things up about their gods, and partly because the universe of TBotNS is, in a way. a Catholic universe with all the flesh stripped away to reveal the bones, like a postmodern building. It is generally rational and rationalized, relatively speaking. It has to "make sense" regardless of our existing religious beliefs, which will never perfectly apply. If Tzadkiel had been an evil or foolish Demiurge (Abaia and his brothers seem to want to fill that slot), it would have been a very different story.

From: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]

Sure, I'll grant there is a correspondance there. Hell, I've been arguing for the Christ correspondences while saying it's not a precise fit, so I can't really buck this one! Somehow, though, I've always felt that Tzadkiel and the rest were more the higher angelic heirarchy. Especially with the biblical notion that Man is higher than the Angels, and the BotNS idea that The Hierogrammates lift up man so they will resemble the Hierogrammates creators (who were, thus, higher than them). On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 7:56 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:

Jordon & Witz--- It doesn't work perfectly for exactly those reasons. However, the pattern is so clear I don't think it can be denied. Also, for me there is little difference between Yahweh saying he is the Utmost and humans thinking he is, not realizing he is simply a sun god and that a bigger God lies above and behind him. This is partly because humans lie and make things up about their gods, and partly because the universe of TBotNS is, in a way. a Catholic universe with all the flesh stripped away to reveal the bones, like a postmodern building. It is generally rational and rationalized, relatively speaking. It has to "make sense" regardless of our existing religious beliefs, which will never perfectly apply. If Tzadkiel had been an evil or foolish Demiurge (Abaia and his brothers seem to want to fill that slot), it would have been a very different story.

David Stockhoff wrote: Also, for me there is little difference between Yahweh saying he is the Utmost and humans thinking he is, not realizing he is simply a sun god and that a bigger God lies above and behind him. This is partly because humans lie and make things up about their gods, and partly because the universe of TBotNS is, in a way. a Catholic universe with all the flesh stripped away to reveal the bones, like a postmodern building. It is generally rational and rationalized, relatively speaking. It has to "make sense" regardless of our existing religious beliefs, which will never perfectly apply.

On 12/12/08, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote: The idea that Yaweh (the Creator as shown in the Old Testament) is a different being than the God of the New Testament has been rejected as heresy by the Church from the time of Marcion. That is not to say that Wolfe couldn't play with the idea. Pas is a demiurge in comparison to the Outsider in the Long Sun books. I just don't see as much of that in the New Sun books.

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------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:03:04 -0800 From: "Jordon Flato" <jordonflato at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <273409710812120903j46b473dy3af4c28ca2716fc1 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sure, I'll grant there is a correspondance there. Hell, I've been arguing for the Christ correspondences while saying it's not a precise fit, so I can't really buck this one! Somehow, though, I've always felt that Tzadkiel and the rest were more the higher angelic heirarchy. Especially with the biblical notion that Man is higher than the Angels, and the BotNS idea that The Hierogrammates lift up man so they will resemble the Hierogrammates creators (who were, thus, higher than them).

On 12/12/08, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: But angels don't have sons. Basically, I'm suggesting any being in charge of Urth or its galaxy is essentially a type of god. Though he also functions as angel. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:03:04 -0800 From: "Jordon Flato" <jordonflato at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Message-ID: <273409710812120903j46b473dy3af4c28ca2716fc1 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sure, I'll grant there is a correspondance there. Hell, I've been arguing for the Christ correspondences while saying it's not a precise fit, so I can't really buck this one! Somehow, though, I've always felt that Tzadkiel and the rest were more the higher angelic heirarchy. Especially with the biblical notion that Man is higher than the Angels, and the BotNS idea that The Hierogrammates lift up man so they will resemble the Hierogrammates creators (who were, thus, higher than them). --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 081212-0, 12/12/2008 Tested on: 12/12/2008 4:50:47 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________

He's a Sufficiently Advanced Alien. Such creatures are indistinguishable from gods from a mortal viewpoint (although not, of course, from the viewpoint of the Increate.)

On 12/12/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

He's a Sufficiently Advanced Alien. Such creatures are indistinguishable from gods from a mortal viewpoint (although not, of course, from the viewpoint of the Increate.)

What if the Archangel Gabriel is a Sufficiently Advanced Alien? does that change anything? everything? or is the Sufficiently Advanced Alien still on a mission from on high? Can only Angels work Gods plan, or can Aliens too?

I think the Heirogrammites and Heirodules are the same entities that past speculation has called Archangels and Angels.

That EITHER of those characters are "real" is HIGHLY unlikely,

but the prospect that these "characters" are trying to express some higher being >that IS existent seems much more likely to me. This is where Wolfe keeps it >ambiguous and leaves it to faith.

~SonOfWitz _______________________________________________

Are you asking for my philosophical and theological speculation, or are you asking about the teachings of the ancient Christian churches?

------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:52:14 -0500 From: "John Watkins" <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS

On 12/12/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

Are you asking for my philosophical and theological speculation, or are you asking about the teachings of the ancient Christian churches?

no, I'm merely asking one to strip away the PLOT and try to deal with what the story is getting at. He's cast aliens as angels, metaphorically. It seems really obvious to me. Who cares if their "not" literally angels in Severian's world. They're metaphorically Angels doing the work of God. Of course, that can be doubted to the ends of time.

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-----Original Message----- From: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 03:44 PM To: 'The Urth Mailing List' Subject: Re: (urth) Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS On 12/12/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

Are you asking for my philosophical and theological speculation, or are you asking about the teachings of the ancient Christian churches?

no, I'm merely asking one to strip away the PLOT and try to deal with what the story is getting at. He's cast aliens as angels, metaphorically. It seems really obvious to me. Who cares if their "not" literally angels in Severian's world. They're metaphorically Angels doing the work of God. Of course, that can be doubted to the ends of time.

This is the actual definition of begging the question.

On 12/12/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

-----Original Message----- From: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 03:44 PM To: 'The Urth Mailing List' Subject: Re: (urth) Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS On 12/12/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:

Are you asking for my philosophical and theological speculation, or are you asking about the teachings of the ancient Christian churches?

no, I'm merely asking one to strip away the PLOT and try to deal with what the story is getting at. He's cast aliens as angels, metaphorically. It seems really obvious to me. Who cares if their "not" literally angels in Severian's world. They're metaphorically Angels doing the work of God. Of course, that can be doubted to the ends of time.

This is the actual definition of begging the question.

Dis me all you want, but it makes PERFECT sense to apply circular logic to a book about intractable timeloops where you can never extract what happened first of which the most explicit description of is given by Heirodules when they describe a two headed snake eating it's own head. So you want to solve a metaphysical paradox with logic? Good fucking luck, buddy.

~witz _______________________________________________