{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5278", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5278, "subject": "AEG clones", "messages": 61, "voices": 11, "first": "2008-12-13T20:55:11+00:00", "last": "2008-12-24T00:30:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000901c95d65$1a9ac340$3dcf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-13T20:55:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given my past antipathy for clone theories, I hesitate to even bring up the\nsubject, but it's mentioned in the book (p.-296) and I have a sinking\nfeeling.\n\nReis thought dying was a bummer, but inevitable. (pp 268-269)\n\nCassie never actually saw Rian. Wolfe makes a point of having her tell\nKlauser that she had to call Rian to tell him that his father was dead.\n(296) This was right after Klauser had expressed some doubt about whether\nReis was really dead or not.\n\nKlauser, looking at the aged Cassie, asked about the \"Casey girl\" that Reis\nwas going to marry, the one he had seen on vid. Cassie said, \"She's gone,\ntoo.\" \"She's passed away, but I'm hoping to bring her back.\" Klauser then\nsaid, \"I believe I understand that as well. You won't want to say anything\nmore about it.\" (296) This was right after he mentioned the anticloning\nlaws.\n\nKlauser asked if Cassie had always been so skinny, then said \"Your genes\nwill control your weight, unless you get as sick as I am or starve. I . . .\n\" (300) Then he thinks to give her that picture of his healthier, heavier\nself and \"A younger William Reis than she had ever seen\". (301)\n\nHe had lost weight because he was sick; she had lost weight because she had\nnearly starved on that island, but neither of them was genetically\npredisposed to being skinny.\n\nI believe Klauser suspected that the aged woman he was talking to was\nactually the same \"Casey girl\" he had seen on vid, because when she\nmentioned having shot a man on the night of the storm, he asked if that man\nhad been Reis. (299) That, or he thought that one woman was a clone of the\nother.\n\nAnyway, when you put this all together in the context of cloning, I suspect\nthat the image of the much younger Reis in the picture would have a striking\nsimilarity to young Rian. I don't know if Cassie's upcoming trip to\nWoldercan is related to cloning.\n\nI don't know if clones have any bearing on Gid and his father. And I don't\nknow what, if anything, the subject of clones has to do with the larger\nstory--but it must be there for a reason.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<28BF0500BD5348C8B8159A932165B8FB@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-14T05:38:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<000901c95d65$1a9ac340$3dcf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given my past antipathy for clone theories, I hesitate to even bring up \nthe\nsubject, but it's mentioned in the book (p.-296) and I have a sinking\nfeeling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have absolutely no aversion to clone theories per se, yet I think I can \ngive you heartening news that I don't think any of this means Rian is a \nclone. Klauser IMO thinks Ries's fiance was a clone-daughter of the woman he \nis talking to in his living room. When she says she wants to bring her back, \nhe presumes she means to create a new clone. She would not want to say more \nabout it because it is an illegal activity.\n\nGiven that as an explanation (which I think is accurate), is there anything \nsaid that would be clarified by Rian being a clone of Bill Reis? I can't \nthink of anything. I know you don't doubt me when I say I actually wish I \ncould. Another thing, weight is to some extent biologically driven, but so \nare heart defects. Now Reis *might* had this sort of thing as a child or he \nmight not. We aren't told. Maybe in a sequel. But I'll bet in that sequel, \nRian is the high king of Takanga.\n\nOn the other hand, to have Cassie *never* meet Rian *is* suspicious in a \nWolfe novel. There were innumerable opportunities before she came to the \nisland and during her stay for Wolfe to have them meet (yes, I know we never \nmeet Herbie either, but this is different.). But the picture of a younger \nBill Reis is not telling, since Rian is sixteen and the youngest picture \nshe's seen of Bill is when he's at probably twice that age, I'm not sure the \npicture would have raised any eyebrows. But, while Wolfe has left room to \nallow Rian to be revealed as a clone or any number of other things a sequel, \nI'm don't see anything *yet* that actually tips us toward that.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<005701c95dd1$a39a0d60$8fd24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-14T09:52:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<28BF0500BD5348C8B8159A932165B8FB@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI have absolutely no aversion to clone theories per se, yet I think I can\ngive you heartening news that I don't think any of this means Rian is a\nclone. Klauser IMO thinks Ries's fiance was a clone-daughter of the woman\nhe\nis talking to in his living room." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mentioned that he might have thought that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When she says she wants to bring her back,\nhe presumes she means to create a new clone. She would not want to say\nmore > about it because it is an illegal activity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but it was Klauser who brought up the subject, and he brought it up\n*before* she said she wanted to bring back the Casey girl. In between, he\nasked if Bill was dead. After Cassie said she wanted to bring back the girl\nis when he said that he thought he understood that \"as well.\" As well as\nwhat?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given that as an explanation (which I think is accurate), is there\nanything\nsaid that would be clarified by Rian being a clone of Bill Reis? I can't\nthink of anything. I know you don't doubt me when I say I actually wish I\ncould." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know. As for clearing anything up, it might lend Reis' dying words\nsomething more than mere poetic sentiment. (283)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another thing, weight is to some extent biologically driven, but so\nare heart defects." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And today's animal clones have sometimes turned out to have subtle defects\nthat have led to premature death.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, to have Cassie *never* meet Rian *is* suspicious in a\nWolfe novel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There were innumerable opportunities before she came to the\nisland and during her stay for Wolfe to have them meet (yes, I know we\nnever\nmeet Herbie either, but this is different.). But the picture of a younger\nBill Reis is not telling, since Rian is sixteen and the youngest picture\nshe's seen of Bill is when he's at probably twice that age, I'm not sure\nthe\npicture would have raised any eyebrows. But, while Wolfe has left room to\nallow Rian to be revealed as a clone or any number of other things a\nsequel,\nI'm don't see anything *yet* that actually tips us toward that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know I don't have a smoking gun, or I would have shown it. But there are\na few other things I chose not to bring up because I can explain them away,\none more easily than the others. That one is where Reis told Cassie, \"I'm so\ngood [as a businessman] that I often need to pretend to be somebody else.\nThere are antitrust laws, for one thing. There are other reasons as well.\"\n(120) That might mean nothing. Might. But the other things Wolfe went out of\nhis way to include.\n\nThe waitress at Rusterman's who looked like Alexis Cabana asked Cassie if\nshe was really there to meet Mr. Rosenquist, and said that he was a friend\nof Mr. Rusterman. When Cassie asked if there was a real Mr. Rusterman, she\nsaid: \"He's the company president. There was another Mr. Rusterman years and\nyears ago, and he opened the first one. But now this Mr. Rusterman is\npresident of our whole chain. He's a cousin or something.\" (118) Cousin\nindeed. We know that Rusterman is really Reis.\n\nAlso at Rusterman's, Reis said:\n\"You were wearing green the first time I saw you.\"\n\"In the play? I wasn't. That was brown.\"\n\"So it was. I was thinking of the party. I took you home, remember?\"\nCassie nodded. \"Thank you. You saw _The Red Spot_, though. The final\nperformance.\"\n\"I didn't. I know I said I did, but that was . . .\"\n\"Diplomacy?\"\n\"Yes, exactly. India had given me tickets, and I didn't want to admit I\nhadn't used them.\"(119)\n\nDiplomacy? Cassie had seen him in the audience (53), and at the cast party\nhe said he had been there. (66) So was he lying then or now? Sure, his first\nsight of her could have been on vid; he demonstrated the capability to her\nthree months later in his car. But Gid had put the glamour on her less than\ntwenty-four hours before that final performance. So who did she see in the\naudience?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4944FB5F.2000409@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-14T12:26:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<005701c95dd1$a39a0d60$8fd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not too convinced of the Rian-clone theory, but another bit of \nevidence is his name. It means \"Little King.\" Since Ries is the King, it \nseems like a \"Mini-me\" sort of name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Diplomacy? Cassie had seen him in the audience (53), and at the cast party\nhe said he had been there. (66) So was he lying then or now? Sure, his first\nsight of her could have been on vid; he demonstrated the capability to her\nthree months later in his car. But Gid had put the glamour on her less than\ntwenty-four hours before that final performance. So who did she see in the\naudience?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ries was telling her a lot of lies at that point; his accounts of the \ngold bracelet were highly contradictory. He didn't know that she knew he \ncould walk unseen, or that she caught a glimpse of him at the play. The \nlie kept explanations simple. The alternative of a clone (artificially \naged to be Bill's double and also taught to walk unseen) is too much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The waitress at Rusterman's who looked like Alexis Cabana asked Cassie if\nshe was really there to meet Mr. Rosenquist, and said that he was a friend\nof Mr. Rusterman. When Cassie asked if there was a real Mr. Rusterman, she\nsaid: \"He's the company president. There was another Mr. Rusterman years and\nyears ago, and he opened the first one. But now this Mr. Rusterman is\npresident of our whole chain. He's a cousin or something.\" (118) Cousin\nindeed. We know that Rusterman is really Reis.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The waitress may be repeating what she was told. We know that the real \nfounder of Rusterman's was Marko Vukcic, the childhood friend of Nero \nWolfe in Montenegro." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3910D3B029F54B689BEA13A5DCD28E0D@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-14T17:44:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<005701c95dd1$a39a0d60$8fd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The waitress at Rusterman's who looked like Alexis Cabana asked Cassie if\nshe was really there to meet Mr. Rosenquist, and said that he was a friend\nof Mr. Rusterman.[...]Cousin indeed. We know that Rusterman is really Reis.\nAlso at Rusterman's, Reis said:\n\"You were wearing green the first time I saw you.\"\n\"In the play? I wasn't. That was brown.\"\n\"So it was. I was thinking of the party. I took you home, remember?\"\nCassie nodded. \"Thank you. You saw _The Red Spot_, though. The final\nperformance.\"\n\"I didn't. I know I said I did, but that was . . .\"\n\"Diplomacy?\"\n\"Yes, exactly. India had given me tickets, and I didn't want to admit I\nhadn't used them.\"(119)\n\nDiplomacy? Cassie had seen him in the audience (53), and at the\ncast party he said he had been there. (66) So was he lying then\nor now? So who did she see in the audience?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, well, well, Roy. Now we are getting someplace. Welcome. We've been \nexpecting you. (bwahahaha)\nYou see, after Norma's murder, she reflects on the cops query about who \nwould want to killer her:\n\n\"She had said, 'Nobody! Nobody at all,' but now, as she prepared for bed, \nshe wondered whether that answer had been the right one. Bill Ries was a \nmurderer and Wally Rosenquist was Bill Reis. But her? Did you give diamond \nbracelets to women you meant to murder.\" (181)\n\nThis is a motif of Wolfe's that occurs from with regularity: The protagonist \nknows that someone is ostensibly operating merely under another alias but \nbehaves as if it makes the him a different person. Or the protagonist \nrecognizes two separate personalities as the same in some bizarre way for \nbizarre reasons. If Wally and Bill are truely the same person, then Cassie's \nmental wrangling is irrational. Crazy.\n\nBut what if Cassie is on to something without realizing it? What if the guy \nwho gave Cassie the gold bracelet and the guy who gave her the diamond one \nare *not* the same person. What if the guy who took the deadly gold bracelet \nback were not the guy who gave it to her? What if Wally R. is *not* the \nfellow that the President called one of the most evil men in the world? What \nif the Rusterman cousin is *not* the same person as Rosenquist or Reis? That \nclarifies a lot. Well, actually, it doesn't. But it opens the possibility of \nclarifying a lot. Okay. You've convinced me. We have ourselves a clone story \nhere.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<005b01c95e3b$653abf00$4ccf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-14T22:29:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<4944FB5F.2000409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nDiplomacy? Cassie had seen him in the audience (53), and at the cast\nparty\nhe said he had been there. (66) So was he lying then or now? Sure, his\nfirst\nsight of her could have been on vid; he demonstrated the capability to\nher\nthree months later in his car. But Gid had put the glamour on her less\nthan\ntwenty-four hours before that final performance. So who did she see in\nthe\naudience?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ries was telling her a lot of lies at that point; his accounts of the\ngold bracelet were highly contradictory. He didn't know that she knew he\ncould walk unseen, or that she caught a glimpse of him at the play. The\nlie kept explanations simple. The alternative of a clone (artificially\naged to be Bill's double and also taught to walk unseen) is too much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why put himself in a position to be caught in a lie that served no purpose?\nWhy did Wolfe put that bit of conversation in the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The waitress at Rusterman's who looked like Alexis Cabana asked Cassie\nif\nshe was really there to meet Mr. Rosenquist, and said that he was a\nfriend\nof Mr. Rusterman. When Cassie asked if there was a real Mr. Rusterman,\nshe\nsaid: \"He's the company president. There was another Mr. Rusterman years\nand\nyears ago, and he opened the first one. But now this Mr. Rusterman is\npresident of our whole chain. He's a cousin or something.\" (118) Cousin\nindeed. We know that Rusterman is really Reis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The waitress may be repeating what she was told. We know that the real\nfounder of Rusterman's was Marko Vukcic, the childhood friend of Nero\nWolfe in Montenegro." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not familiar with Nero Wolfe, so I can't address that part. But Cassie\nwent on to address Reis as Wade, which was Rusterman's given name. He said,\n\"Call me Wally, please. I prefer it. Here.\" (120) Had Reis merely wanted to\nown a restaurant chain, he could have bought it and kept the franchise name\nbut purchased it under some name other that Rusterman. That would have\navoided the whole \"cousin\" angle. Maybe someone felt it necessary to invent\nthe cousin story to offer a plausable reason for an uncanny resemblance\nbetween company presidents. Or to explain why the current president had not\naged as much as he should have after \"years and years\".\n\nAnyway, if there are no clones in the story, why did Wolfe bring up the\nsubject in the last chapter? If he hadn't, I wouldn't have brought this\ntopic up. I hate clone theories. \n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8CB2C54E021C8C3-13BC-E18@WEBMAIL-DY01.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "stoneox17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2008-12-14T22:46:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<005701c95dd1$a39a0d60$8fd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Roy C. Lackey writes\n\n===============\nAlso at Rusterman's, Reis said:\n\"You were wearing green the first time I saw you.\"\n\"In the play? I wasn't. That was brown.\"\n\"So it was. I was thinking of the party. I took you home, remember?\"\nCassie nodded. \"Thank you. You saw _The Red Spot_, though. The final\nperformance.\"\n\"I didn't. I know I said I did, but that was . . .\"\n\"Diplomacy?\"\n\"Yes, exactly. India had given me tickets, and I didn't want to admit I\nhadn't used them.\"(119)\n\nDiplomacy? Cassie had seen him in the audience (53), and at the cast \nparty\nhe said he had been there. (66) So was he lying then or now? Sure, his \nfirst\nsight of her could have been on vid; he demonstrated the capability to \nher\nthree months later in his car. But Gid had put the glamour on her less \nthan\ntwenty-four hours before that final performance. So who did she see in \nthe\naudience?\n============\n\nI have a theory here. At first, Cassie looks out at the audience from a\npeephole, and doesn't see Reis. While she is onstage, she glances out\nand sees him, and later, she looks out from the peephole again and\ndoesn't see him (52-53). This is all in the chapter titled \"The Unseen\nAudience.\" My theory is that Reis was there the whole time, but he was\nusing his powers of invisibility, and somehow, while she is onstage, \nCassie's\nglamour enable her to see him, but it only works while she's acting.\n\nThis seems more likely than Reis having snuck in and out during the\nperformance unnoticed (although he could have used his powers for\nthat as well.\n\nSo the reason that Reis claims he wasn't there is that he has no idea\nanyone was able to see him.\n\nPeter" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49458E89.5090406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-14T22:54:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<3910D3B029F54B689BEA13A5DCD28E0D@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nBut what if Cassie is on to something without realizing it? What if the guy \nwho gave Cassie the gold bracelet and the guy who gave her the diamond one \nare *not* the same person. What if the guy who took the deadly gold bracelet \nback were not the guy who gave it to her? What if Wally R. is *not* the \nfellow that the President called one of the most evil men in the world? What \nif the Rusterman cousin is *not* the same person as Rosenquist or Reis? That \nclarifies a lot. Well, actually, it doesn't. But it opens the possibility of \nclarifying a lot. Okay. You've convinced me. We have ourselves a clone story \nhere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis admits to Cassie early on that he started out trying to entrap and \ndestroy her (pp. 125, 145). He eventually admits that the gold bracelet \nwas radioactive (p. 270). \"(Reis) The gold I gave you made you think of \nthat first bracelet... (Cassie) We've already talked a little about the \ngold. Radioactive gold... (Reis) We have.\"\n\nSo it's not surprising that he told her lies about it at first. He said \nit was \"Eighteen karat, which means it's pretty soft\" (p. 67). Eighteen \nkarat gold is only 75% gold, and jewelry made with it need not be soft, \ndepending on what metals it's mixed with. Later he says it weighed ten \nounces, and the German craftsman used all ten ounces of the gold Reis \ngave him (p. 122). In other words, it was 100% gold (24 karat), and that \nwould indeed be soft. He was maximizing the harm it could do her, though \nthat couldn't have been his whole plan to destroy her.\n\nAt the party, he claimed he had made it months ago and only decided whom \nto give it to after seeing Cassie in the play (p. 67). From what we know \nabove. that was also a lie.\n\nThe odd thing is the timing of his change of heart. He knew he had made \na mistake when he saw her coming up to the microphone to get the gold \nbracelet (p. 145). He persisted for a little while out of stubbornness, \nbut scrapped his plan while they sat together in the car that first \nnight they met (p. 145). But if it was indeed Reis who saw at least a \nlittle of the play, why didn't her glamour start charming him out of his \nplan earlier?\n\nThe man at the play (p. 53) was possibly Bill's clone, double by magical \nillusion, or shape-changing werewolf. That man was most likely the one \nwho waited in the alley to give Cassie something, and who bribed Jimmy \none hundred dollars to carry a message to her (p. 56). Jimmy died \nshortly after that (p. 65), possibly scared to death by the man.\n\nSimpler, though, would be the idea that Bill was there too briefly to be \naffected deeply, or that he was present only by hologram and got a \ndiminished glamour effect. He could be the man in the alley himself." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4945A48F.9040501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-15T00:27:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<005b01c95e3b$653abf00$4ccf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nWhy put himself in a position to be caught in a lie that served no purpose?\nWhy did Wolfe put that bit of conversation in the story?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Bill was actually in the \"empty\" seat the whole time, then perhaps \n\"You were wearing green the first time I saw you,\" is a lie and yet not \na lie. During the play Cassie was projecting Mildred, the soon-to-be \nmurder victim. When he saw her in green she was herself.\n\nI also think her love glamour worked through proximity. Bill started \nchanging his mind about destroying her when she came up to the \nmicrophone, and completely dumped the idea when she sat beside him in \nthe car. The distance from the stage to his seat was too far for him to \nget the full effect.\n\nSo, suppose he sat through the whole play, invisible. There are a couple \nof good reasons for changing his story. The first is that Cassie or \nChase might have checked with the ushers and found out his reserved seat \nwas empty. Reis had to say he lied about being there or admit he walked \ninvisible. More importantly, he didn't want to be associated with the \ndeath of her friend Jimmy. If he admitted being there, he would be \nadmitting he could be the man in the alley who bribed Jimmy and possibly \nmurdered him. That wouldn't be a good start to his intended relationship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe someone felt it necessary to invent\nthe cousin story to offer a plausable reason for an uncanny resemblance\nbetween company presidents. Or to explain why the current president had not\naged as much as he should have after \"years and years\".\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. I still think we are invited to check the history of the \nRusterman name in the Nero Wolfe books and see if it was merely an \ninvented name to avoid annoying xenophobic Americans with a strange name \nlike \"Vukcic's.\" (I don't have the books handy now). If so, this cousin \nstuff is just an in-joke." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, if there are no clones in the story, why did Wolfe bring up the\nsubject in the last chapter? If he hadn't, I wouldn't have brought this\ntopic up. I hate clone theories. ", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-15T01:23:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<49458E89.5090406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sigh. Tsk tsk tsk.\n\nHere comes a litany of elaborate theories for each of a series of pointless \n\"lies\" Reis/Rosenquist/Rusterman tells a when a single global explanation \nstands a decent chance of explaining it all. Why? Because it is \naesthetically unappealing (to some). Personally, I find a single leap to \nexplain many mysteries more aesthetically appealing than a dozen leaps and \nbuying offs on lame excuses by Reis to explain a dozen strange lies.\n\nLook, Reis says that he saw Cassie for the first time wearing a green dress \nat the party. He says he didn't see the final performance of \"The Red Spot\". \nEven though we know he saw her in the play. What possible reason could he \nhave to lie to Cassie about that? Maybe he found the truth aesthetically \nunappealing?\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8CB2C815F7D4D46-734-5C2@MBLK-M16.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "stoneox17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2008-12-15T04:04:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: hypnotism", "in_reply_to": "<8CB2C54E021C8C3-13BC-E18@WEBMAIL-DY01.sysops.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Everybody: thanks for the great discussion on rereading AEG.\n\nI think I've discovered another clue: Gideon is a phenomenal\nhypnotist. Here's the evidence:\n\nTalking with the president, Gideon says:\n\"There is even hypnosis, with which a skillful operator can do\nmuch more than the public has been led to believe.\" (20)\n\nand at the mountain (all but the last ellipsis are mine):\n\n \"'Sit down.' Gideon sat on a smaller stone facing hers. ...\nShe found that she was seated, although she had not\nintended to sit. ...\n \"'The first thing I must explain is how badly you need sleep.\n... I want you to sleep in the car as we drive home. You\nshould sleep all morning, if you can. I know you must be very,\nvery tired ....\" Behind him: great, dark wings.\" (43)\n\nAnd indeed, Cassie does sleep through the ride back, and\nwakes up just in time for lunch at Walker's.\n\nSo where does hypnotism (maybe post-hypnotic suggestion)\nreappear later in the book?\n\nPeter?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4946108C.6040600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-15T08:08:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<5B346FB6A5E54690A7EC711FCDCB056C@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nLook, Reis says that he saw Cassie for the first time wearing a green dress \nat the party. He says he didn't see the final performance of \"The Red Spot\". \nEven though we know he saw her in the play. What possible reason could he \nhave to lie to Cassie about that? Maybe he found the truth aesthetically \nunappealing?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How much a person lies and why gives important insights into his or her \ncharacter. Cassie lies compulsively, even in situations where the other \nperson knows she is lying (\"I won the lottery. That's the total, \nabsolute, brass-bound truth\" p. 120), and when she was specifically \nwarned not to lie (\"If anyone asks, tell them the absolute truth about \nmy coming here today and my leaving here\" (p. 94). \"He hasn't been in \ncontact...\" (p. 124)).\n\nReis seems to be different. He lies only for calculated reasons, and \nexpects he'll have to admit the truth eventually. When Cassie calls him \n\"Bill\" and asks if he found anything in her apartment, he says she has \nsaved him weeks and admits the search (p. 119). So you're right, I \nprefer to find logical explanations for his lies rather than say that he \nsimply felt like it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49461328.6080003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-15T08:19:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: hypnotism", "in_reply_to": "<8CB2C815F7D4D46-734-5C2@MBLK-M16.sysops.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stoneox17 wrote:\nSo where does hypnotism (maybe post-hypnotic suggestion)\nreappear later in the book?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cassie appears to be much more honest in reporting things to Chase than \nto any other person. You can always count on her to lie, at least by \nomission, to anyone else. That might be post-hypnotic suggestion.\n\nHere's another one I'm curious about, though it happens before the \nmountain hypnosis. Sharon tells Cassie that thinking about lipstick \nnames puts her to sleep (p. 24). Then Aaberg tells her \"Got to watch \nthat one. It'll put you to sleep\" (p. 30). Minutes later, she has fallen \ndeeply asleep in Chase's car. Normally a person who goes out armed to a \nrisky encounter in the middle of the night in a bad neighborhood with a \nstranger who might not be who they say they are wouldn't fall asleep \njust like that. Was some form of hypnotic suggestion involved?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3C00A378BD074C75AEB657F84D98C0D3@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-16T03:25:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<4946108C.6040600@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What if the guy who gave Cassie the gold bracelet and the guy who\ngave her the diamond one are *not* the same person. What if the guy who\ntook the deadly gold bracelet back were not the guy who gave it to her?\nWhat if Wally R. is *not* the fellow that the President called one of the\nmost evil men in the world? What if the Rusterman cousin is *not* the\nsame person as Rosenquist or Reis?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just remembered something else that tips the balance in favor of Roy's \nclone theory. When the President is briefing Chase:\n-------\n[The president says] \"...come in, John! I said if there was only one evil \nman in the world, it'd have to be Bill Reis. There's a hell of a lot of evil \nmen in the world.\"\n\"Three in particular\", the man the president called John added.\n\"We haven't gotten to that yet, John, and I don't think we will.\" The \npresident motioned towrd a chair. \"Sit down.\"\n\"My error, Mr. President, I didn't know we were excluding the Senate.\"\n-------\n\nThe president's reaction to John's \"Three\" comment suggests something \nsubstantial that the president doesn't want to share with Chase.\nJohn's comment about the Senate is certainly a joke to cover his speaking \nout of turn.\nSo if Bill Reis is one of the evil men in the world who are the other two \nthat John referred to?\nWally Rosenquist and Wade Rusterman? So are we talking about three separate \nmen here?\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<494827E7.3000208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-16T22:12:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<3C00A378BD074C75AEB657F84D98C0D3@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More candidates for the three most evil men in the world:\n\n1) The man who set up the illusion-cult tomb in \"Memorare\" (his statue \nlooks like Gene Wolfe).\n2) King Kanoa, probably a major Cthulhu-cult leader.\n3) Real Senators known to the president, if John wasn't joking." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812161421u3a206688s690d259c076e86fd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-16T22:21:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<494827E7.3000208@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another, maybe too obvious, three candidates are Gideon Chase, the\npresident, and the man the president calls John. Note that \"John\"\nisn't saying the three men are the \"three most evil\"--he's responding\nto the President's claim that \"There's a hell of a lot of evil men in\nthe world\" by saying that \"three in particular\" are at issue--why not\nthe three in the room? Is Wolfe telling us, up front, by means of\nwhat might be \"John's\" practiced cynicism, that Chase and the US\ngovernment are on the side of the devils?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/08, Dave Tallman wrote:\nMore candidates for the three most evil men in the world:\n\n1) The man who set up the illusion-cult tomb in \"Memorare\" (his statue looks\nlike Gene Wolfe).\n2) King Kanoa, probably a major Cthulhu-cult leader.\n3) Real Senators known to the president, if John wasn't joking.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<494A40F1.5000109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-18T12:24:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812161421u3a206688s690d259c076e86fd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nSo if Bill Reis is one of the evil men in the world who are the other \ntwo that John referred to?\nWally Rosenquist and Wade Rusterman? So are we talking about three \nseparate men here?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm still unsure, but the idea is growing on me a little. There's the \nodd change of names at the end:\n\"Oh Bill, my poor Bill. Why did you have to die?\"...\"Please, oh please \nWally! Come back to me!\" This makes sense if Cassie has figured out that \nthey are two different people.\n\nAnother way to get doubles other than cloning is by time-travel. If a \nperson hopped to Woldercon, there' s a possibility that they could \nreturn before they left. Early on, Reis shows uncanny speed in reacting \nto Cassie's recruitment by Chase. He gets a play book written, a \nbracelet made, and a director in place before she has even performed \nonce at star level. Time-travel might explain this.\n\nOn the other hand, if Bill Reis had clones or temporal doubles who were \nworking with him, then we would expect them to help him when he needed \nto be in two places at once. We have a case where it would have been \nconvenient for this to have happened and it didn't: the date with Cassie \nat Rusterman's. Reis wanted to go out with her and also search her \napartment. If he had a co-operative double, why not do both and give \nhimself an alibi for the search?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370812180936x6688a8f8racb73041d86d7217@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-18T17:36:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<494A40F1.5000109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A third possibliity is that the President did not know that Reise, Rosinquist\nand Rusterman were the same person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 4:24 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So if Bill Reis is one of the evil men in the world who are the other two\nthat John referred to?\nWally Rosenquist and Wade Rusterman? So are we talking about three\nseparate men here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm still unsure, but the idea is growing on me a little. There's the odd\nchange of names at the end:\n\"Oh Bill, my poor Bill. Why did you have to die?\"...\"Please, oh please\nWally! Come back to me!\" This makes sense if Cassie has figured out that\nthey are two different people.\n\nAnother way to get doubles other than cloning is by time-travel. If a person\nhopped to Woldercon, there' s a possibility that they could return before\nthey left. Early on, Reis shows uncanny speed in reacting to Cassie's\nrecruitment by Chase. He gets a play book written, a bracelet made, and a\ndirector in place before she has even performed once at star level.\nTime-travel might explain this.\n\nOn the other hand, if Bill Reis had clones or temporal doubles who were\nworking with him, then we would expect them to help him when he needed to be\nin two places at once. We have a case where it would have been convenient\nfor this to have happened and it didn't: the date with Cassie at\nRusterman's. Reis wanted to go out with her and also search her apartment.\nIf he had a co-operative double, why not do both and give himself an alibi\nfor the search?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812181030p6d46a7cducee507dc3e09c37a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-18T18:30:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<494A40F1.5000109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another way to get doubles other than cloning is by time-travel. If a person\nhopped to Woldercon, there' s a possibility that they could return before\nthey left. Early on, Reis shows uncanny speed in reacting to Cassie's\nrecruitment by Chase. He gets a play book written, a bracelet made, and a\ndirector in place before she has even performed once at star level.\nTime-travel might explain this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did Reis write the play for Cassie? I was of the impression that\nChase knew about Reis's play, and made Cassie into a star in order to\ninfiltrate the play, but I don't know why it is I think this.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812181144s451e8fd7t73bde116ed357203@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-18T19:44:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones... send them in", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812181030p6d46a7cducee507dc3e09c37a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nDid Reis write the play for Cassie? I was of the impression that\nChase knew about Reis's play, and made Cassie into a star in order to\ninfiltrate the play, but I don't know why it is I think this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had the impression he wrote it for her (as part of a trap, initially).\nReis seems to admit it here: \"I'm financing the show you're in as a vehicle\nfor you, Cassie.\" (p. 144). I believe it was meant to send a message to\nChase: \"You think you can recruit someone to spy on me? Look how quickly I\ncan entrap and destroy her. You'd better join my side.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004f01c9615f$af2fc2a0$4dcf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-18T22:26:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<4945A48F.9040501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nWhy put himself in a position to be caught in a lie that served no\npurpose?\nWhy did Wolfe put that bit of conversation in the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Bill was actually in the \"empty\" seat the whole time, then perhaps\n\"You were wearing green the first time I saw you,\" is a lie and yet not\na lie. During the play Cassie was projecting Mildred, the soon-to-be\nmurder victim. When he saw her in green she was herself.\n\nI also think her love glamour worked through proximity. Bill started\nchanging his mind about destroying her when she came up to the\nmicrophone, and completely dumped the idea when she sat beside him in\nthe car. The distance from the stage to his seat was too far for him to\nget the full effect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regardless of exactly when or why Reis had a change of heart, Cassie saw him\nin the audience and he stated at the cast party that he had seen the play." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, suppose he sat through the whole play, invisible. There are a couple\nof good reasons for changing his story. The first is that Cassie or\nChase might have checked with the ushers and found out his reserved seat\nwas empty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What reserved seat? The theater wasn't anywhere near full and she saw Reis\nin the second row, not the first, where a reserved seat would be.\n\nI don't know if it is relevant (Wolfe might have made a mistake), but there\nis a ticket discrepancy. At the cast party Reis said that India had given\nhim \"a ticket\". (66) At Rusterman's he said India had given him \"tickets,\nand I didn't want to admit I hadn't used them.\" (119)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis had to say he lied about being there or admit he walked\ninvisible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gid (or someone) had already told her that Reis \"walks unseen\" in the note\nwritten on the back of one of the pictures he left her the night before the\nplay. (44) With that in mind, go back and read carefully the bit at the top\nof page 21, as he was leaving the White House. On a sunny day. If I were a\nrabid clone theorist, I would also start wondering about John's glasses (15)\nand Gid's cryptic little dig at him about optics. (19) And why Reis wears\nglasses only in some photos. He was wearing glasses when she saw him in the\naudience." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More importantly, he didn't want to be associated with the\ndeath of her friend Jimmy. If he admitted being there, he would be\nadmitting he could be the man in the alley who bribed Jimmy and possibly\nmurdered him. That wouldn't be a good start to his intended relationship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no way Reis could have avoided being associated with Jimmy. He, or\nhis proxy, had been the big guy who sent Jimmy to Cassie with the message\nabout the gift, right after the play ended. She got the message and sent\nJimmy with a reply, and Reis knew it. It was a very foolish thing for him to\nhave brought up the subject again at all, much less to contradict himself\nover such a small matter as when he first saw her.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812181545s57baa914vbcdc7d4b4e3a1822@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-18T23:45:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<004f01c9615f$af2fc2a0$4dcf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nWhat reserved seat? The theater wasn't anywhere near full and she saw Reis\nin the second row, not the first, where a reserved seat would be.\n\nBy \"reserved seat\" I really meant \"the seat assigned by India's free\nticket.\" Regardless of how full or empty a theater is, patrons normally sit\nwhere their ticket says. So this is something Cassie might check. Reis must\nhave thought he was fully invisible the whole time. He had no idea that\nCassie's star-power had penetrated his ability to cloud men's minds. If he\nthought she had checked, then he might choose to change his story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if it is relevant (Wolfe might have made a mistake), but there" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is a ticket discrepancy. At the cast party Reis said that India had given\nhim \"a ticket\". (66) At Rusterman's he said India had given him \"tickets,\nand I didn't want to admit I hadn't used them.\" (119)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't worry about the plural discrepancy. India probably gave him two\ntickets in case he chose to attend with a companion. His story at the party\nwas that he went alone, and hence used only one ticket.\n\nGid (or someone) had already told her that Reis \"walks unseen\" in the note" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "written on the back of one of the pictures he left her the night before the\nplay. (44) With that in mind, go back and read carefully the bit at the top\nof page 21, as he was leaving the White House. On a sunny day. If I were a\nrabid clone theorist, I would also start wondering about John's glasses\n(15)\nand Gid's cryptic little dig at him about optics. (19) And why Reis wears\nglasses only in some photos. He was wearing glasses when she saw him in the\naudience." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps Gid can also \"walk unseen\" when he wants to, and was worried about\nshadows. A few points about \"optics\":\n1) Gid may be referring to the ability to walk unseen, since it is a skill\nused and taught on Woldercan.\n2) Since we have laser surgery even today, one would think ordinary glasses\nto correct vision would be obsolete.\n3) The assassin says she wears glasses that let her see in the dark (p.\n249). John's glasses may be of this type.\n4) John's glasses are thick (giving the impression of blindness, p. 15) and\nmaking eye contact difficult. That might be a precaution against hypnotism.\n5) The glasses are only seen in the full-length shot (p. 44), perhaps taken\nwithout Reis knowing. The close-ups may be posed. Reis may wear glasses in\npublic as a disguise.\n\nSpeaking of invisibility, here is a really strange instance. Vince Palma\nbrushes an \"invisible yellow feather\" from his lips at the party (p. 64). He\nwill wear a headdress of red and yellow feathers as the Volcano God (p.\n285). Is he wearing this at the \"Red Spot\" party, and rendering it invisible\nby mental powers? He seems to be one powerful guy:\n1) He knows about Gray Neighbors and banshees (p. 64).\n2) He plays with Cassie like a cat with a mouse (p. 63).\n3) He knows Cassie's real name (p. 63), which she is startled to find out\nthat Reis knows later (p. 146).\n3) His voice makes everything he says sound important (p. 285).\n\nHis role in \"The Red Spot\" is minor (a poor scheming detective p. 63), but\nRosenquist picks him out for the Volcano God at once. Who is Vince Palma\nreally? Is he possessed by the Volcano God, perhaps under the control of\nBill Reis? The real Volcano God looks like him when he appears to Cassie, so\nthere seems to be something there..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812181613r280ea64cgcafef3bbf375717f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-19T00:13:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812181545s57baa914vbcdc7d4b4e3a1822@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/08, Dave Tallman wrote:\n5) The glasses are only seen in the full-length shot (p. 44), perhaps taken\nwithout Reis knowing. The close-ups may be posed. Reis may wear glasses in\npublic as a disguise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this rings a bell. Pulp of the 1930s, guy with powers who\nglasses used as a disguise and has a colleague/rival who's a detective\nand financial wizard with a cool car?\n\nWe're looking at Superman." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<092703869BE8474C81B773C4B80B2F29@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-19T01:05:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812181545s57baa914vbcdc7d4b4e3a1822@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He had no idea that Cassie's star-power had penetrated his ability to cloud men's minds. \nIf he thought she had checked, then he might choose to change his story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Errr...if this is so, why didn't her star power allow her to penetrate it later in the restaurant when she watched him disappear?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<494B0A5E.70104@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2008-12-19T02:43:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<494A40F1.5000109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It would also make sense if there were two different people inside \nof Cassie.\n You were the one that pointed out that Gideon may have infused her \nwith the spirit of the banshee - the Washer at the Ford. I think the \nCassie part of Cassie came close to dying on the Volcano God's island, \nbut that last line at the end shows that she's not gone- she's the one \nthat liked to call him \"Wally.\"\n As to why Dr. Chase would have wanted to put the spirit of a \nmountain god's wife into her... who knows.\n ---H" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI'm still unsure, but the idea is growing on me a little. There's the \nodd change of names at the end:\n\"Oh Bill, my poor Bill. Why did you have to die?\"...\"Please, oh please \nWally! Come back to me!\" This makes sense if Cassie has figured out \nthat they are two different people." } ] }, { "message_id": "<494B284E.6080300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-19T04:51:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<494B0A5E.70104@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Henry Eissler wrote:\n You were the one that pointed out that Gideon may have infused her \nwith the spirit of the banshee - the Washer at the Ford. I think the \nCassie part of Cassie came close to dying on the Volcano God's island, \nbut that last line at the end shows that she's not gone- she's the one \nthat liked to call him \"Wally.\"\n As to why Dr. Chase would have wanted to put the spirit of a \nmountain god's wife into her... who knows.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Cassie was infused with a different spirit. Chase speaks \nof energizing her innate star potential (p. 41). I pretty much gave up \non the \"Washer at the Ford\" theory after I found another reference that \nfit better. Here it is, as I wrote it up for WolfeWiki:\n\n * \"A mountain whose wife washed clothes?\" (pp. 41-42, 83) is a\n reference to Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town\n \n by Cory Doctorow. The protagonist Alan's father was a mountain and\n his mother was a washing machine. Credit for discovering this\n belongs to Marc Aramini. It's a perfect match:\n\n 1. The mountain quakes when it's angry.\n 2. There are gnomes and golems in its caves.\n 3. The setting is near Toronto, Canada. (The protagonist goes to\n Willowdale, a suburb of Toronto, at one point).\n 4. The nearest large mountain to Toronto is Blue Mountain. There is a\n trek to the summit which takes about 2.5 hours on foot.\n\nI now see a better banshee connection with the winged creatures one \nchapter title calls \"Death's Visitors.\" Each time they to speak to \nCassie it is right after a violent death (Norma Peiper, Florence McNair, \nand Bill Reis). They call Cassie \"our cub\" (p. 235), so she is a \nbanshee by adoption, at least.\n\n * The winged \"Death's Visitors\" (pp. 182, 234-236, 284) are probably\n harpies\n , winged\n Greek death-spirits also associated with storms. Banshees are also\n a form of harpies." } ] }, { "message_id": "<494B2CE5.6010106@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-19T05:11:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<092703869BE8474C81B773C4B80B2F29@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nHe had no idea that Cassie's star-power had penetrated his ability to\ncloud men's minds. If he thought she had checked, then he might \nchoose to\nchange his story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Errr...if this is so, why didn't her star power allow her to penetrate it\nlater in the restaurant when she watched him disappear?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like I suggestion I saw on the lists here recently that her power is \nextra-strong when she is performing on stage. It makes both the play and \nthe audience more real to her, as seen in this quote: \"...the play had \nbecome far more serious and real, a real life -- hers -- watched not at \nall strangely by several hundred people sitting in the dark\" (p. 52).\n\nIt was during the performance that she stole a glance at the audience \nand saw Bill. When she had exited, she looked out the peephole and could \nno longer see him (p. 53)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<011201c961a7$9d3811e0$4dcf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-19T07:01:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812181545s57baa914vbcdc7d4b4e3a1822@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nGid (or someone) had already told her that Reis \"walks unseen\" in the note\nwritten on the back of one of the pictures he left her the night before\nthe\nplay. (44) With that in mind, go back and read carefully the bit at the\ntop\nof page 21, as he was leaving the White House. On a sunny day. If I were\na\nrabid clone theorist, I would also start wondering about John's glasses\n(15)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and Gid's cryptic little dig at him about optics. (19) And why Reis\nwears\nglasses only in some photos. He was wearing glasses when she saw him in\nthe\naudience." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps Gid can also \"walk unseen\" when he wants to, and was worried about\nshadows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He said he couldn't do it, but might be able to learn if he tried for a year\nor two. (196) My point is, yes, he thought he might be followed from the\nWhite House in the conventional gumshoe sense, but he amended his thought to\nwonder if he was also \"being followed already.\" (21) So he tried to tire and\nlose \"his unseen companion--or companions--if he could.\" I find the choice\nof the word \"unseen\" to be just too coincidental, given what he soon wrote\non the back of that photo. I think he was looking for shadows that should't\nhave been there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A few points about \"optics\":\n1) Gid may be referring to the ability to walk unseen, since it is a skill\nused and taught on Woldercan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Humans can and have walked unseen long before they discovered Woldercan.\n(198)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Since we have laser surgery even today, one would think ordinary\nglasses\nto correct vision would be obsolete.\n3) The assassin says she wears glasses that let her see in the dark (p.\n249). John's glasses may be of this type." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was daytime. In the White House." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) John's glasses are thick (giving the impression of blindness, p. 15)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "making eye contact difficult. That might be a precaution against\nhypnotism.\n5) The glasses are only seen in the full-length shot (p. 44), perhaps\ntaken\nwithout Reis knowing. The close-ups may be posed. Reis may wear glasses in\npublic as a disguise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sunglasses are a given. (44) But in a darkened theater at night, why would a\nman who is invisible wear glasses to disguise himself? Why show up invisible\nat all? He was invited. And the Jimmy incident happened after the play was\nover." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking of invisibility, here is a really strange instance. Vince Palma\nbrushes an \"invisible yellow feather\" from his lips at the party (p. 64)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "will wear a headdress of red and yellow feathers as the Volcano God (p.\n285). Is he wearing this at the \"Red Spot\" party, and rendering it\ninvisible\nby mental powers? He seems to be one powerful guy:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took the yellow feather bit as just a continuation of the cat analogy. As\nin the common expression \"the cat that ate the canary\". He is pompous, smug,\njust full of himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) He knows about Gray Neighbors and banshees (p. 64).\n2) He plays with Cassie like a cat with a mouse (p. 63).\n3) He knows Cassie's real name (p. 63), which she is startled to find out\nthat Reis knows later (p. 146).\n3) His voice makes everything he says sound important (p. 285).\n\nHis role in \"The Red Spot\" is minor (a poor scheming detective p. 63), but\nRosenquist picks him out for the Volcano God at once. Who is Vince Palma\nreally? Is he possessed by the Volcano God, perhaps under the control of\nBill Reis? The real Volcano God looks like him when he appears to Cassie,\nso\nthere seems to be something there..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but I'm not sure what. Maybe this is a clue: Vince claims to be 6'4\";\nReis is 6'2\". I can't recall if Gil is said to be slightly taller than Gid,\nbut Klauser thought the \"Casey girl\" was about a half inch taller than the\naged Cassie. (295) That's an odd thing for a man who saw the glamourized\nCassie only on vid to say. But there might be a pattern there.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<494B94D4.4060605@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-19T12:34:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<011201c961a7$9d3811e0$4dcf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSunglasses are a given. (44) But in a darkened theater at night, why would a\nman who is invisible wear glasses to disguise himself? Why show up invisible\nat all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis had a lot of enemies, including the F.B.I., the A.T.F., and Cthulhu \ncultists. He would be sensible to take any number of precautions when \ngoing to a public place where someone might expect him to be (if India \ntalked, for example). He attended all his son's football games invisibly \n(p. 277).\n\nWhy disguise himself when he's already invisible? It seems cameras can \ndefeat glamours (the photo of Gib showed him as he really was) and maybe \ninvisibility too, since it works on the same principle. That gives \nanother possible explanation for John's thick glasses. They could \nconceal a camera and video feed, so he could have \"true sight.\" Chase \nmight have been telling John that the Woldercans could do the same thing \nwithout being so obvious, with their superior science of optics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I took the yellow feather bit as just a continuation of the cat analogy. As\nin the common expression \"the cat that ate the canary\". He is pompous, smug,\njust full of himself.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a plausible alternative. Still, Wolfe goes out of his way to \nmention the yellow feathers in the headdress later, so I tend to think \nthis is a clue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, but I'm not sure what. Maybe this is a clue: Vince claims to be 6'4\";\nReis is 6'2\". I can't recall if Gil is said to be slightly taller than Gid,\nbut Klauser thought the \"Casey girl\" was about a half inch taller than the\naged Cassie. (295) That's an odd thing for a man who saw the glamourized\nCassie only on vid to say. But there might be a pattern there.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So maybe Vince is a clone or temporal double of Reis, using a glamour to \nappear different? That could be it. And if so that makes Norma Peiper \nthe real ex-wife of Reis or his equivalent, just as I suspected. \"I used \nto be married to the volcano god.\" (p. 176)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<494BE45C.9050803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-19T18:13:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones...send them in", "in_reply_to": "<494B284E.6080300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "May I say that this is the strangest post I have yet seen on this listserv. And the AEG discussions are usually pretty damn weird, if you haven't read the thing.\n\nI'm impressed and a little apprehensive, but I'm waiting for the paperback ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:51:26 -0700\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nSubject: Re: (urth) AEG clones...send them in\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <494B284E.6080300 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nHenry Eissler wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " You were the one that pointed out that Gideon may have infused her \nwith the spirit of the banshee - the Washer at the Ford. I think the \nCassie part of Cassie came close to dying on the Volcano God's island, \nbut that last line at the end shows that she's not gone- she's the one \nthat liked to call him \"Wally.\"\n As to why Dr. Chase would have wanted to put the spirit of a \nmountain god's wife into her... who knows.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI don't think Cassie was infused with a different spirit. Chase speaks \nof energizing her innate star potential (p. 41). I pretty much gave up \non the \"Washer at the Ford\" theory after I found another reference that \nfit better. Here it is, as I wrote it up for WolfeWiki:\n\n * \"A mountain whose wife washed clothes?\" (pp. 41-42, 83) is a\n reference to Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town\n \n by Cory Doctorow. The protagonist Alan's father was a mountain and\n his mother was a washing machine. Credit for discovering this\n belongs to Marc Aramini. It's a perfect match:\n\n 1. The mountain quakes when it's angry.\n 2. There are gnomes and golems in its caves.\n 3. The setting is near Toronto, Canada. (The protagonist goes to\n Willowdale, a suburb of Toronto, at one point).\n 4. The nearest large mountain to Toronto is Blue Mountain. There is a\n trek to the summit which takes about 2.5 hours on foot." } ] }, { "message_id": "<005001c9621c$2c01eda0$dccd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-19T20:55:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<494B94D4.4060605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nYeah, but I'm not sure what. Maybe this is a clue: Vince claims to be\n6'4\";\nReis is 6'2\". I can't recall if Gil is said to be slightly taller than\nGid,\nbut Klauser thought the \"Casey girl\" was about a half inch taller than\nthe\naged Cassie. (295) That's an odd thing for a man who saw the glamourized\nCassie only on vid to say. But there might be a pattern there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So maybe Vince is a clone or temporal double of Reis, using a glamour to\nappear different? That could be it. And if so that makes Norma Peiper\nthe real ex-wife of Reis or his equivalent, just as I suspected. \"I used\nto be married to the volcano god.\" (p. 176)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking that people who have been artificially enhanced in some way,\nlike Cassie, are made to appear literally larger than life, so to speak. The\nheight comparisons pop up too often to be anything but deliberate. There is\nanother that I forgot, the chauffeur Carlos. \"He looked taller and darker\nthan the uniformed man she remembered seeing when she had looked down at the\nwhite limousine.\" (116)\n\nI'm still not convinced about Norma. For one thing, the rich woman Sharon\ntalked about was said to be devoted to her son. I have a hard time believing\nthat a rich woman devoted to her child would spend time slumming as an\nactress in a second-rate theater production like _The Red Spot_. A rich\nex-wife could have bought her own show on Broadway and starred in it if she\nhad the acting bug. Just before Norma was killed, she seemed to be concerned\nthat she might be replaced in the proposed expanded production of Reis'\nplay, and wanted Cassie to use her clout to save her job. If she were rich,\nall she had to do was slip greedy India enough money and her job would be\nsecure. Plus, I have doubts about any woman, particularly a rich woman,\nwanting to play second-fiddle to another woman in a play produced by her ex,\nespecially when the ex is obviously infatuated with the star. Ain't natural.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812191305v41426a8fh481c1230b683637@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-19T21:05:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<005001c9621c$2c01eda0$dccd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/19/08, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm still not convinced about Norma. For one thing, the rich woman Sharon\ntalked about was said to be devoted to her son. I have a hard time believing\nthat a rich woman devoted to her child would spend time slumming as an\nactress in a second-rate theater production like _The Red Spot_. A rich\nex-wife could have bought her own show on Broadway and starred in it if she\nhad the acting bug. Just before Norma was killed, she seemed to be concerned\nthat she might be replaced in the proposed expanded production of Reis'\nplay, and wanted Cassie to use her clout to save her job. If she were rich,\nall she had to do was slip greedy India enough money and her job would be\nsecure. Plus, I have doubts about any woman, particularly a rich woman,\nwanting to play second-fiddle to another woman in a play produced by her ex,\nespecially when the ex is obviously infatuated with the star. Ain't natural.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a pretty convincing argument, IMHO. I think maybe we're\nlooking at a parallel rather than an identity. Reis has used the\nVincent/Norma relationship to mirror his relationship with his\nex-wife.\n\nBut why? I think this comes back to the bigger question--what's the\npurpose of Dating the Volcano God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-19T21:12:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812191305v41426a8fh481c1230b683637@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 19, 2008, at 3:05 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\nBut why? I think this comes back to the bigger question--what's the\npurpose of Dating the Volcano God?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm NOT GOING TO MAKE A JOKE ABOUT\n\n\"Getting his rocks off.\"\n\nOH CRAP.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004e01c96232$2a0dbcc0$5fd24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-19T23:33:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<494B94D4.4060605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stupid me. Wolfe hid the answer in plain sight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nAlso at Rusterman's, Reis said:\n\"You were wearing green the first time I saw you.\"\n\"In the play? I wasn't. That was brown.\"\n\"So it was. I was thinking of the party. I took you home, remember?\"\nCassie nodded. \"Thank you. You saw _The Red Spot_, though. The final\nperformance.\"\n\"I didn't. I know I said I did, but that was . . .\"\n\"Diplomacy?\"\n\"Yes, exactly. India had given me tickets, and I didn't want to admit I\nhadn't used them.\"(119)\n\nDiplomacy? Cassie had seen him in the audience (53), and at the cast party\nhe said he had been there. (66) So was he lying then or now? Sure, his\nfirst\nsight of her could have been on vid; he demonstrated the capability to her\nthree months later in his car. But Gid had put the glamour on her less\nthan\ntwenty-four hours before that final performance. So who did she see in the\naudience?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In fairness to myself, my OED failed me. But when I complained to my wife\nabout it after school today, she knew right off the definition I was looking\nfor, and Google confirmed it.\n\nReis did lie to Cassie, but his lie was in the attempt to cover up the truth\nabout what she was wearing the first time he saw her. I knew there had to be\na text-based solution, so I went looking for every mention of Cassie's\nclothes before the play. I found the green dress; I just didn't know the\nmeaning of the word. \"The warmer dress she had put on for the short walk to\nBaskin-Robbins hung neatly beside it. Its loden wool held a sweet and smoky\naroma, with a bitter undercurrent.\" (43) Loden is a shade of green, as any\nwoman could tell you. That is the dress Cassie was wearing when Reis first\nsaw her.\n\nShe had that dress on only from the time she dressed for the ice cream\nstore, shortly before midnight, until Gideon (or someone) undressed her\nafter taking her home. Sometime that night, presumably after Gid cast the\nglamour on her, Reis saw her and wanted her. That's why he went to India at\nnoon before the play to become her \"angel\" in a big, new musical.\n\nBut this brings up two more questions: Exactly when and where did Reis see\nher that night? And was Gid complicit in the viewing? What kind of gentleman\nhypnotizes a woman he just met, plants suggestions and leaves a void in her\nmemory, then takes her home and takes her clothes off? OTOH, Gid did arrange\nfor video publicity from Sharon during the day, before the play that\nevening.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812191540u66ed8bd4u238b5b62b8ca0b1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-19T23:40:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<004e01c96232$2a0dbcc0$5fd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI'm still not convinced about Norma. For one thing, the rich woman Sharon\ntalked about was said to be devoted to her son. I have a hard time believing\nthat a rich woman devoted to her child would spend time slumming as an\nactress in a second-rate theater production like _The Red Spot_. A rich\nex-wife could have bought her own show on Broadway and starred in it if she\nhad the acting bug. Just before Norma was killed, she seemed to be concerned\nthat she might be replaced in the proposed expanded production of Reis'\nplay, and wanted Cassie to use her clout to save her job. If she were rich,\nall she had to do was slip greedy India enough money and her job would be\nsecure. Plus, I have doubts about any woman, particularly a rich woman,\nwanting to play second-fiddle to another woman in a play produced by her ex,\nespecially when the ex is obviously infatuated with the star. Ain't natural.\n\nThose other options would have reduced Norma's privacy. The rich woman\nseems to have sworn Sharon to secrecy about her identity. There could be\ngood reasons for this, like the fear of Bill's enemies. If Norma was that\nwoman, we can see that her fears were justified." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There may also be wheels within wheels as far as her motivations for getting\nclose to Cassie.\n1) Reis may have put her up to it initially, as part of a trap.\n2) The ATF may have forced her into it by threats, since they use\nex-spouses.\n3) She may not like Cassie as much as she appears. Knowing Cassie's constant\nconcern about her weight, she tempted her with a plate of fattening food (p.\n60).\n4) She can't stop smiling when Cassie is onstage with her. Is this a normal\nreaction to Cassie's star-attraction. or a cover?\n5) She does enough calling to Cassie that her name pops into Cassie's head\nwhen she needs a quick alibi for a phone call from Chase.\n6) The sniper seemed to know the path the women would take, and Norma\nsuggested the departure together and led the way.\n7) She was wearing a black wool coat that night, suggesting she is a \"black\nsheep.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812191551r67658f8dv5bfc32495e19c599@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-19T23:51:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812191540u66ed8bd4u238b5b62b8ca0b1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nBut this brings up two more questions: Exactly when and where did Reis see\nher that night? And was Gid complicit in the viewing? What kind of gentleman\nhypnotizes a woman he just met, plants suggestions and leaves a void in her\nmemory, then takes her home and takes her clothes off? OTOH, Gid did arrange\nfor video publicity from Sharon during the day, before the play that\nevening." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good catch on the loden wool. I was just looking it up because I wanted to\nfind other mentions of wool garments (besides Norma's black wool coat), but\nI missed the color clue in the references I found.\n\nHere's on possibility on the viewing: the cop who picks up Cassie (Aaberg)\nturns out to be a double agent for Reis. He had a computer monitor in his\ncar. In BotLS, computer monitors that seem to be off can be used to spy on\npeople. Reis could have gotten a look at her through the monitor." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812191733h66075d4do64951a54409d6c2c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-20T01:33:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<004e01c96232$2a0dbcc0$5fd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not only is loden a shade of green, but, as my wife just informed me,\nit's mossy green.\nThis seems to me to connect Cassie to Disiri, the Queen of the Moss\nAelf. Both get \"elevated\" above their natural metaphysical status." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/19/08, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nStupid me. Wolfe hid the answer in plain sight.\n\nI wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also at Rusterman's, Reis said:\n\"You were wearing green the first time I saw you.\"\n\"In the play? I wasn't. That was brown.\"\n\"So it was. I was thinking of the party. I took you home, remember?\"\nCassie nodded. \"Thank you. You saw _The Red Spot_, though. The final\nperformance.\"\n\"I didn't. I know I said I did, but that was . . .\"\n\"Diplomacy?\"\n\"Yes, exactly. India had given me tickets, and I didn't want to admit I\nhadn't used them.\"(119)\n\nDiplomacy? Cassie had seen him in the audience (53), and at the cast party\nhe said he had been there. (66) So was he lying then or now? Sure, his\nfirst\nsight of her could have been on vid; he demonstrated the capability to her\nthree months later in his car. But Gid had put the glamour on her less\nthan\ntwenty-four hours before that final performance. So who did she see in the\naudience?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In fairness to myself, my OED failed me. But when I complained to my wife\nabout it after school today, she knew right off the definition I was looking\nfor, and Google confirmed it.\n\nReis did lie to Cassie, but his lie was in the attempt to cover up the truth\nabout what she was wearing the first time he saw her. I knew there had to be\na text-based solution, so I went looking for every mention of Cassie's\nclothes before the play. I found the green dress; I just didn't know the\nmeaning of the word. \"The warmer dress she had put on for the short walk to\nBaskin-Robbins hung neatly beside it. Its loden wool held a sweet and smoky\naroma, with a bitter undercurrent.\" (43) Loden is a shade of green, as any\nwoman could tell you. That is the dress Cassie was wearing when Reis first\nsaw her.\n\nShe had that dress on only from the time she dressed for the ice cream\nstore, shortly before midnight, until Gideon (or someone) undressed her\nafter taking her home. Sometime that night, presumably after Gid cast the\nglamour on her, Reis saw her and wanted her. That's why he went to India at\nnoon before the play to become her \"angel\" in a big, new musical.\n\nBut this brings up two more questions: Exactly when and where did Reis see\nher that night? And was Gid complicit in the viewing? What kind of gentleman\nhypnotizes a woman he just met, plants suggestions and leaves a void in her\nmemory, then takes her home and takes her clothes off? OTOH, Gid did arrange\nfor video publicity from Sharon during the day, before the play that\nevening.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004e01c96261$7cb423e0$19d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-20T05:11:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812191540u66ed8bd4u238b5b62b8ca0b1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nThose other options would have reduced Norma's privacy. The rich woman\nseems to have sworn Sharon to secrecy about her identity. There could be\ngood reasons for this, like the fear of Bill's enemies. If Norma was that\nwoman, we can see that her fears were justified." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are two simple means to satisfy privacy conserns:\n1) Don't talk to gossip reporters.\n2) Stay out of the limelight.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<007401c96268$d4fc5fc0$19d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-20T06:04:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812191551r67658f8dv5bfc32495e19c599@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nHere's on possibility on the viewing: the cop who picks up Cassie (Aaberg)\nturns out to be a double agent for Reis. He had a computer monitor in his\ncar. In BotLS, computer monitors that seem to be off can be used to spy on\npeople. Reis could have gotten a look at her through the monitor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The glamour was put on Cassie in Canada. Aaberg wasn't in a position to see\nthe new Cassie.\n\nBefore the glamour, Cassie was just a thirtyish, second-rate actress and no\nparticular beauty. The girl at Baskin-Robbins had no regard for her at all,\nunlike the waitresses and everyone else who saw her after that night.\nWithout Gid's glamour, Reis wouldn't have looked twice at her--which is\nexactly why Gid put it on her.\n\nThe photo Gid listened to at the White House was obviously made shortly\nafter Reis was replaced as ambassador, 2-3 years earlier. He already had\nplans for his South Seas kingdom when he left Woldercan. He was probably\nlooking for the right woman to satisfy his lust and ego as his high queen.\nGid already knew about Cassie from seeing her in other plays over the years.\n(207) The most desirable woman in the world was the perfect bait, and Reis\ntook it.\n\nBtw, Aaberg was made to look like Scott, which means that Gid knew all about\nCassie's past when he left her that first note. And it suggests that Gid put\na slight glamour on Aaberg to make him look that way. And when Cassie first\nsaw Aaberg:\n\n\"'The man who entered was both tall and wide, nearing middle age. Cassie\ngasped, 'Scott . . . ?'\n'Who's that?' His voice was deep and a trifle raspy.\"\n\nThat sounds a lot like the descriptions and voice of Reis. Just so we don't\nforget about clones. \n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<494CFB9C.1080206@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-20T14:05:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<007401c96268$d4fc5fc0$19d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nBefore the glamour, Cassie was just a thirtyish, second-rate actress and no\nparticular beauty. The girl at Baskin-Robbins had no regard for her at all,\nunlike the waitresses and everyone else who saw her after that night.\nWithout Gid's glamour, Reis wouldn't have looked twice at her--which is\nexactly why Gid put it on her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Reis had come to see Cassie full of love from the beginning I would \nhave to agree with you that he only saw her in glamorized form. He \ndidn't: he came with murderous intent because he wanted to prove his \npower to Chase.\n\nCassie's change was of personal magnetism and presence. Her face wasn't \nchanged; her friends still recognized her. Chase admitted to himself \nthat he loved her before the change and would continue to if she lost it \n(p. 81). Chase also there was a chance Reis would kill Cassie just for \ntalking to him. He thought the odds were equal whether she transformed \nor not (pp. 31-32).\n\nI think it's far more likely that Reis saw Cassie in the loden wool \ndress that night by means of Aaberg (whether by his computer monitor or \nsome other hidden camera) than that Chase forwarded videos to him of \nCassie after she was transformed. Chase and Reis were not on good terms \nat that point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Btw, Aaberg was made to look like Scott, which means that Gid knew all about\nCassie's past when he left her that first note. And it suggests that Gid put\na slight glamour on Aaberg to make him look that way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that Aaberg was probably enchanted by Chase that night. Not only \ndid he look like Scott to Cassie but he seems to have had a power of \nhypnosis -- his suggestion about lipstick putting her to sleep really \ndid. The height, weight, and voice clues are interesting, but I don't \nbelieve that Aaberg is a clone of Reis. It may just show she had loved \nand married Reis' physical type before." } ] }, { "message_id": "<494CFDFB.7030704@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-20T14:15:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<004e01c96261$7cb423e0$19d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThere are two simple means to satisfy privacy conserns:\n1) Don't talk to gossip reporters.\n2) Stay out of the limelight.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My theory is that Sharon ferreted out the information that Norma was the \nex-wife of a famous rich former ambassador and approached Norma for an \ninterview. Norma managed to get her to be quiet about it. Norma did \nabout as well as she could to avoid the limelight, if she wanted to act \nat all." } ] }, { "message_id": "<797FEFBC5B9A41EF806452907A621060@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-21T03:53:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<004e01c96232$2a0dbcc0$5fd24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stupid me. Wolfe hid the answer in plain sight.\nReis did lie to Cassie, but his lie was in the attempt to cover up the \ntruth\nabout what she was wearing the first time he saw her. I knew there had to \nbe\na text-based solution...Sometime that night, presumably after Gid cast the\nglamour on her, Reis saw her and wanted her. That's why he went to India at\nnoon before the play to become her \"angel\" in a big, new musical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's true that Cassie wears green prior to the party, but this solution is \nno more \"text-based\" than your prior theory. It is significantly less so, \nreally, since it relies on reams of supposition about what might have or \nhave not happened between the time Cassie reached the mountain and when she \ngot home. Rather than solving anything, it inelegantly raises an \nintimidating army of intractable mysteries.\n\nOn the other hand, your prior theory succeeds in resolving the issue of why \nReis was lying up a storm about seeing her at the play. Why *after the fact* \nwould Reis need to lie about seeing her at the play? Because no one else saw \nhim there? So what? So they didn't see him. He just says, \"You must have \nmissed seeing me.\"\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<005901c96333$8bcb2cc0$e3d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-21T06:15:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<797FEFBC5B9A41EF806452907A621060@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn quoted from two different paragraphs I wrote and tied them\ntogether with [...] (minus the brackets), which distorts the meaning:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stupid me. Wolfe hid the answer in plain sight.\nReis did lie to Cassie, but his lie was in the attempt to cover up the\ntruth\nabout what she was wearing the first time he saw her. I knew there had to\nbe\na text-based solution...Sometime that night, presumably after Gid cast\nthe\nglamour on her, Reis saw her and wanted her. That's why he went to India\nat\nnoon before the play to become her \"angel\" in a big, new musical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I actually wrote was:\n[begin quote]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis did lie to Cassie, but his lie was in the attempt to cover up the\ntruth\nabout what she was wearing the first time he saw her. I knew there had to\nbe\na text-based solution, so I went looking for every mention of Cassie's\nclothes before the play. I found the green dress; I just didn't know the\nmeaning of the word. \"The warmer dress she had put on for the short walk\nto\nBaskin-Robbins hung neatly beside it. Its loden wool held a sweet and\nsmoky\naroma, with a bitter undercurrent.\" (43) Loden is a shade of green, as any\nwoman could tell you. That is the dress Cassie was wearing when Reis first\nsaw her.\n\nShe had that dress on only from the time she dressed for the ice cream\nstore, shortly before midnight, until Gideon (or someone) undressed her\nafter taking her home. Sometime that night, presumably after Gid cast the\nglamour on her, Reis saw her and wanted her. That's why he went to India\nat\nnoon before the play to become her \"angel\" in a big, new musical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[end quote]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's true that Cassie wears green prior to the party, but this solution is\nno more \"text-based\" than your prior theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The text-based solution I meant, as the remainder of my original paragraph\nmakes clear, is the solution to the question of what green dress Cassie wore\nbefore the play that Reis could have seen her wearing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is significantly less so,\nreally, since it relies on reams of supposition about what might have or\nhave not happened between the time Cassie reached the mountain and when\nshe\ngot home. Rather than solving anything, it inelegantly raises an\nintimidating army of intractable mysteries." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inelegantly? Oh, dear. As for the mysteries, they come with the territory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, your prior theory succeeds in resolving the issue of\nwhy\nReis was lying up a storm about seeing her at the play." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only if there really are clones of Reis in the story. No smoking gun has yet\nbeen found. The loden dress doesn't kill the clone theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why *after the fact*\nwould Reis need to lie about seeing her at the play?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still have not seen a good answer for that, or I would have abandoned the\nclone theory.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7242FF1341944DC0AD1DA6BEC9B792DD@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-21T09:17:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<005901c96333$8bcb2cc0$e3d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy took umbrage:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn quoted from two different paragraphs I wrote and tied them\ntogether with [...] (minus the brackets), which distorts the meaning:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First off: This is unmitigated crap. I tied together the points I was \ndirectly responding to with an ellipsis . Since when are the additional \nbrackets required? Anyone following the thread will have read the original \npost for its full beauty. It's fine for you to clarify, but the segments I \nprovided do not distort the meaning of anything you said. I certainly didn't \ndo anything to *dishonestly* distort their meaning as your reply implied \n(intentionally or not). Is there a point in the original that deserves \nreiteration? Is there a nuance that didn't carry the first time? Okay. That \nhappens to me too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The text-based solution I meant, as the remainder of my original paragraph\nmakes clear, is the solution to the question of what green dress Cassie \nwore\nbefore the play that Reis could have seen her wearing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't carry. And it's not text based either, which is probably why it \ndidn't. Reis never said AFAIK that he saw Cassie in the dress *before* the \nplay. He said he saw Cassie wearing the dress at the party. Quote: \"I was \nthinking of the party. I took you home, remember?\" Maybe he lied. But then \nthe whole conversation is a lie without any mixture of truth. So, maybe he's \nlying about her being in a green dress the first time he saw her as well? \nMaybe he's lying about loving her? Maybe Gid had him take her home from the \nmountain. But why all the lies? He knows that Cassie is working for Gid. \nEither way, he knows she knows he knows she is working for Gid.\n\nOn the other hand, we have Wolfe's M.O. of having people tell apparent lies \nthat end up being the truth. This theory doesn't fit that, but your previous \none did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inelegantly? Oh, dear. As for the mysteries, they come with the territory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, you discarded (perhaps only temporarily) an explanation **for this \nscene** that tied up a bunch of loose ends in a single sweep and devised one \ninstead that generates out of thin air an entire novel's worth of mysteries. \n\"Comes with the territory\"? You're leveraging the Lousiana Purchase with \npocket change. It doesn't mean its not true, but it certainly isn't based on \na more *literal* reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only if there really are clones of Reis in the story. No smoking gun has \nyet\nbeen found. The loden dress doesn't kill the clone theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it *is* an alternate theory. And as for being useful as a theory, it \ncreates a irresolvable mess that would turn further consideration of \"what \nis really going on\" into pure augury.\n\nThe answer isn't going to come as a smoking gun. It's going to come from the \npreponderance of the evidence. It will come from an explanation (or a short \nlist of explanations) that makes the story fit together.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<494E3642.9060104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-21T12:27:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<797FEFBC5B9A41EF806452907A621060@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nIt's true that Cassie wears green prior to the party, but this solution is \nno more \"text-based\" than your prior theory. It is significantly less so, \nreally, since it relies on reams of supposition about what might have or \nhave not happened between the time Cassie reached the mountain and when she \ngot home. Rather than solving anything, it inelegantly raises an \nintimidating army of intractable mysteries.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That may be true of Roy's original theory, but not of my revised version \n(that Reis saw her before the glamour, using Aaberg as his spy). Chase \nsimply took her home -- no extra suppositions are needed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, your prior theory succeeds in resolving the issue of why \nReis was lying up a storm about seeing her at the play. Why *after the fact* \nwould Reis need to lie about seeing her at the play? Because no one else saw \nhim there? So what? So they didn't see him. He just says, \"You must have \nmissed seeing me.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Statements by Reis:\n1) \"...I saw 'The Red Spot' tonight...\" (p. 67).\n2) \"You were wearing green the first time I saw you.\" (p. 119)\n3) \"I was thinking of the party.\" (p. 119)\n4) \"I didn't [see the play]. I know I said I did, but that was...\" (p. 119)\n\nThe hard one to explain is #4. He chose to contradict himself, when he \ncould have kept consistent by sticking to the idea that he was just \nthinking about the party, that her brown dress in the play didn't count \nbecause she in a role, etc.\n\nClone theory: 1) F, 2) T, 3) T, 4) T. More trues than falses this way, \nbut why not keep it simple and take the actions of his clone for his own?\n\nLoden dress theory: 1) T, 2) T, 3) F, 4) F. In this one, he had been \ncaught in an admission he didn't want to make (#2). He covered for it \nclumsily, perhaps because he was flustered.\n\nThe Rusterman conversation is full of lies and half-truths on both \nsides. Part of the fun is figuring them out. His explanation of the \nreason he took the bracelet back from Margaret is at least full of lies \nby omission. \"I had hoped that you would love it...\" (and get radiation \npoisoning)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<959549.84552.qm@web180010.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-12-21T13:30:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<494E3642.9060104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 12/21/08, Dave Tallman wrote:\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nSubject: Re: (urth) AEG clones\n His\nexplanation of the \nreason he took the bracelet back from Margaret is at least\nfull of lies \nby omission. \"I had hoped that you would love\nit...\" (and get radiation \npoisoning)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Common gold Au 197 is stable, but all other gold isotopes are highly radioactive. Isn't a gold isotope a clone (an evil clone) of the true metal? \n\nBest wishes,\nJack\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1DFE1B3DB38A46C5808FC44ADDCFBC12@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-21T18:26:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<494E3642.9060104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) \"...I saw 'The Red Spot' tonight...\" (p. 67).\n2) \"You were wearing green the first time I saw you.\" (p. 119)\n3) \"I was thinking of the party.\" (p. 119)\n4) \"I didn't [see the play]. I know I said I did, but that was...\" (p. \n119)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Clone theory: 1) F, 2) T, 3) T, 4) T. More trues than falses this way, but \nwhy not keep it simple and take the actions of his clone for his own?\n\nLoden dress theory: 1) T, 2) T, 3) F, 4) F. In this one, he had been \ncaught in an admission he didn't want to make (#2). He covered for it \nclumsily, perhaps because he was flustered." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Clone Theory is T for #1 if one presumes his clone saw it instead.\nI don't actually think it counts for much anyway since it doesn't occur in \nthe Rusterman conversation, and a lie that a character admits is a lie later \nis of a different type. An the Clone Theory doesn't generate previously \nunimagined conundrums.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003901c963b1$e0a15340$afcf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-21T21:19:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<7242FF1341944DC0AD1DA6BEC9B792DD@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nThe text-based solution I meant, as the remainder of my original\nparagraph\nmakes clear, is the solution to the question of what green dress Cassie\nwore\nbefore the play that Reis could have seen her wearing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Didn't carry. And it's not text based either, which is probably why it\ndidn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Buckshot. The loden dress is in the text, like it or not. In the Rusterman\nconversation, Wolfe went out of his way to give the reader pause to wonder\nwhy and how there could be any confusion over the seemingly minor issue of\nwhen Reis first saw Cassie. Do you really think that Wolfe gave an inventory\nof Cassie's closet that inclued an obscured mention of a green dress,\nclearly identifiable as the dress she wore on the mountain, for no good\nreason?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis never said AFAIK that he saw Cassie in the dress *before* the\nplay." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He said he saw Cassie wearing the dress at the party. Quote: \"I was\nthinking of the party. I took you home, remember?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He saw her wearing *a* dress at the party, and it may well have been a green\none--redheads are known for wearing green. But no woman is going to wear the\nsame dress she wore the night before to a party, particularly when that\ndress was worn while hiking up a mountain and it reeks of incense and wood\nsmoke. Cassie didn't like the smell of Gid's ritual concoction, and even\nsaid she wouldn't want to wear that smell. (42)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe he lied. But then\nthe whole conversation is a lie without any mixture of truth. So, maybe\nhe's\nlying about her being in a green dress the first time he saw her as well?\nMaybe he's lying about loving her?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And we get to pick what is a lie and what is true according to how well it\nfits a particular theory?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe Gid had him take her home from the\nmountain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doubtful, othrwise the pictures with the notes on them would not have been\nin her purse when she woke up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Inelegantly? Oh, dear. As for the mysteries, they come with the\nterritory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy, you discarded (perhaps only temporarily) an explanation **for this\nscene** that tied up a bunch of loose ends in a single sweep and devised\none\ninstead that generates out of thin air" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not out of thin air." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "an entire novel's worth of mysteries.\n\"Comes with the territory\"? You're leveraging the Lousiana Purchase with\npocket change. It doesn't mean its not true, but it certainly isn't based\non\na more *literal* reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Huh. I can't help it if the loden dress doesn't help the clone theory. But\nit's there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Only if there really are clones of Reis in the story. No smoking gun has\nyet\nbeen found. The loden dress doesn't kill the clone theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But it *is* an alternate theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It isn't a global theory. The loden dress just serves to explain how Reis\ncould have been telling the truth about when he first saw Cassie.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The answer isn't going to come as a smoking gun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With that I will agree.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002101c963bb$a0bf5e20$34ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-21T22:29:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<494E3642.9060104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nStatements by Reis:\n1) \"...I saw 'The Red Spot' tonight...\" (p. 67).\n2) \"You were wearing green the first time I saw you.\" (p. 119)\n3) \"I was thinking of the party.\" (p. 119)\n4) \"I didn't [see the play]. I know I said I did, but that was...\" (p." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "119)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The hard one to explain is #4. He chose to contradict himself, when he\ncould have kept consistent by sticking to the idea that he was just\nthinking about the party, that her brown dress in the play didn't count\nbecause she in a role, etc.\n\nClone theory: 1) F, 2) T, 3) T, 4) T. More trues than falses this way,\nbut why not keep it simple and take the actions of his clone for his own?\n\nLoden dress theory: 1) T, 2) T, 3) F, 4) F. In this one, he had been\ncaught in an admission he didn't want to make (#2). He covered for it\nclumsily, perhaps because he was flustered." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only point you have marked true for both these scenarios is that Cassie\nwas wearing a green dress when Reis first saw her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Rusterman conversation is full of lies and half-truths on both\nsides. Part of the fun is figuring them out. His explanation of the\nreason he took the bracelet back from Margaret is at least full of lies\nby omission. \"I had hoped that you would love it...\" (and get radiation\npoisoning)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the problems with this clone theory is that there should be some sort\nof coordination among clones in order to avoid tripping each other up and\nexposing themselves. That in turn necessitates one individual as the prime\nindividual who benefits from the coordinated actions of the others.\nOtherwise, each individual will have his own agenda, which will lead to\nconflicts. Reis was a megalomaniac. As such, he could never tolerate rivals\nof equal knowledge, powers and resources. Part of his stated ego trip was\nthat he and he alone would possess the most desirable woman in the world. If\nonly one guy gets the girl . . . things are bound to get ugly.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9171E96E343D4D6895819FF6A59305CB@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-22T00:41:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<002101c963bb$a0bf5e20$34ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the problems with this clone theory is that there should be some \nsort\nof coordination among clones in order to avoid tripping each other up and\nexposing themselves. That in turn necessitates one individual as the prime\nindividual who benefits from the coordinated actions of the others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought that was the whole point of the clone theory. The clone theory \nallows murderer Reis to give Cassie a deadly bracelet, and island king \nRosenquist to fall in love with Cassie and take it back and give her a \ndiamond one instead. They would need each other, but they have their own \ndesires out of life. Reis would want to rule \"his island in a sea of black\" \nliberated from the Squid God, but Rosenquist would want to rule his island \nin a sea of blue liberated from the Squid God. You pointed out how \nsuspicious it is that we never meet Rian. But maybe we did. Maybe he doesn't \nlook like he's 16 years old. Maybe he looks just like the guy who is \nbank-rolling Cassie's play." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Otherwise, each individual will have his own agenda, which will lead to\nconflicts. Reis was a megalomaniac. As such, he could never tolerate \nrivals\nof equal knowledge, powers and resources." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not necessarily so. He might see it as necessary to accomplish his purposes. \nHis obsessive self-cloning could be the primary presentation of his \nmeglomania, and \"a touch of meglomania\" might be the signiture emotion of \nthe clones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Part of his stated ego trip was\nthat he and he alone would possess the most desirable woman\nin the world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It depends on which clone we are talking about. The benefit of a clone story \nis that one can use it to examine the nature of the soul and identity (as in \nthe movie \"Dark City\") which seems to be Wolfe's favorite theme: Take a man \nand slightly alter his memory and/or personal history. Will he turn out the \nsame?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If only one guy gets the girl . . . things are bound to get ugly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or if one wants the girl win the most desirable woman and another sees her \nas a terrible threat. IF the clone theory is correct, then Cassie seems to \nsuspect on a subconcious level that one of them doesn't want to win her-- he \nwants to kill her. (pg 181)\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6B4350D7-68BB-43A6-91B2-4DDC97F79CF2@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-22T02:46:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<9171E96E343D4D6895819FF6A59305CB@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 21, 2008, at 6:41 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nIt depends on which clone we are talking about. The benefit of a \nclone story is that one can use it to examine the nature of the soul \nand identity (as in the movie \"Dark City\") which seems to be Wolfe's \nfavorite theme: Take a man and slightly alter his memory and/or \npersonal history. Will he turn out the same?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What can change the nature of a man?\n\nOops. I got my Planescape: Torment in your Gene Wolfe.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00b401c963ff$95ff0be0$34ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-22T06:36:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<9171E96E343D4D6895819FF6A59305CB@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nOne of the problems with this clone theory is that there should be some\nsort\nof coordination among clones in order to avoid tripping each other up\nand\nexposing themselves. That in turn necessitates one individual as the\nprime\nindividual who benefits from the coordinated actions of the others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought that was the whole point of the clone theory. The clone theory\nallows murderer Reis to give Cassie a deadly bracelet, and island king\nRosenquist to fall in love with Cassie and take it back and give her a\ndiamond one instead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which one killed a thousand or so people to take control of the islands?\nWhich one benefited?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They would need each other, but they have their own\ndesires out of life. Reis would want to rule \"his island in a sea of\nblack\"\nliberated from the Squid God, but Rosenquist would want to rule his island\nin a sea of blue liberated from the Squid God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it is the same guy, the one at Rusterman's, who expressed the desire to\nhave both on the same page. \"When I was younger, I wanted to own an island.\nAn island with beaches and palm trees where I would reign as king.\" [. . .]\n\"I have that island now, but I've seen a better one. A blue isle in a sea of\nblack.\" (125)\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Part of his stated ego trip was\nthat he and he alone would possess the most desirable woman\nin the world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It depends on which clone we are talking about." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The guy at Ruterman's said it. (125) So did the guy who gave her the\ndiamonds, in almost the same words. (145)\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If only one guy gets the girl . . . things are bound to get ugly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or if one wants the girl win the most desirable woman and another sees her\nas a terrible threat. IF the clone theory is correct, then Cassie seems to\nsuspect on a subconcious level that one of them doesn't want to win her--\nhe\nwants to kill her. (pg 181)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At that point she was laboring under the false assumption that she had been\nthe shooter's intended target. (Wolfe characters are forever jumping to\nwrong conclusions.) She later learned from Scott that Norma had been the\nintended target. (188)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<494F8523.8050405@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-22T12:16:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<002101c963bb$a0bf5e20$34ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n/ Clone theory: 1) F, 2) T, 3) T, 4) T. More trues than falses this way,\n/>/ but why not keep it simple and take the actions of his clone for his own?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/>/\n/>/ Loden dress theory: 1) T, 2) T, 3) F, 4) F. In this one, he had been\n/>/ caught in an admission he didn't want to make (#2). He covered for it\n/>/ clumsily, perhaps because he was flustered.\n/\nThe only point you have marked true for both these scenarios is that Cassie\nwas wearing a green dress when Reis first saw her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's try the other, then.\nMistaken Reis: 1) T, 2) F, 3) T, 4) F. He simply forgot about the brown \ndress, or omitted it because it didn't fit his \"green goddess\" \ncompliment. This leaves lie #4 without any good reason, when he could \nhave admitted his mistake instead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the problems with this clone theory is that there should be some sort\nof coordination among clones in order to avoid tripping each other up and\nexposing themselves. That in turn necessitates one individual as the prime\nindividual who benefits from the coordinated actions of the others.\nOtherwise, each individual will have his own agenda, which will lead to\nconflicts. Reis was a megalomaniac. As such, he could never tolerate rivals\nof equal knowledge, powers and resources. Part of his stated ego trip was\nthat he and he alone would possess the most desirable woman in the world. If\nonly one guy gets the girl . . . things are bound to get ugly.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not a problem with time-traveling copies. Since it's the same \nperson there's no conflict of interest, and the memories of the older \none can keep the coordination on track.\n\nAnother hint in favor of the duplicate theory is Sharon's question on p. \n237. \"Is Rosenquist tied in with him [William S. Reis]?\" It seems pretty \nclueless to be asking this so late in the game, unless there is \nsomething more Sharon knows. Cassie brushes her off. What if Sharon was \ngoing to tell her that she had evidence they were not the same person?\n\nBy the way: Rian could be a clone, but he can't have been aged to look \nlike Bill. What prep school would allow a fat, middle-aged-looking man \nto be a starting quarterback (p. 277)? Bill couldn't be lying about this \nbecause he expects Cassie to meet Rian at the wedding (p. 276). It would \nrisk their relationship to tell an outrageous lie that would soon be \nexposed." } ] }, { "message_id": "<006301c9647b$97636b80$49d34a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-22T21:23:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<494F8523.8050405@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nAnother hint in favor of the duplicate theory is Sharon's question on p.\n237. \"Is Rosenquist tied in with him [William S. Reis]?\" It seems pretty\nclueless to be asking this so late in the game, unless there is\nsomething more Sharon knows. Cassie brushes her off. What if Sharon was\ngoing to tell her that she had evidence they were not the same person?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if this is related, or what theory it helps or hurts, but the\nmorning after Cassie received the gold bracelet she talked to Gid and\nmentioned that Wally Rosenquist had given it to her. (75) Gid reacted as if\nsurprised to hear that name. I don't know how to take that. Given the\nubiquity of computers, data bases and search engines in the story, to say\nnothing of the FBI files he had access to, I find it hard to believe that\nGid could be unfamiliar with that name if it had been an established Reis\nalias. Yet Zelda talked in veiled terms as if Rosenquist, \"under a dozen\nnames\", was well established in financial circles. (90) And India had no\ndoubts that \"Wally\" was filthy rich. (105) So why did Gid react that way?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way: Rian could be a clone, but he can't have been aged to look\nlike Bill. What prep school would allow a fat, middle-aged-looking man\nto be a starting quarterback (p. 277)? Bill couldn't be lying about this\nbecause he expects Cassie to meet Rian at the wedding (p. 276). It would\nrisk their relationship to tell an outrageous lie that would soon be\nexposed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-23T00:11:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<00b401c963ff$95ff0be0$34ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy said, then James, then Roy\nOne of the problems with this clone theory is that there should be some\nsort of coordination among clones in order to avoid tripping each other\nup\nand exposing themselves. That in turn necessitates one individual as the\nprime individual who benefits from the coordinated actions of the others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought that was the whole point of the clone theory. The clone theory\nallows murderer Reis to give Cassie a deadly bracelet, and island king\nRosenquist to fall in love with Cassie and take it back and give her a\ndiamond one instead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which one killed a thousand or so people to take control of the islands?\nWhich one benefited?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To take control of them from whom? The Squid God? One man's wild-eyed\nrevolutionary is another's liberator. The lesser king who described the \nevents to Cassie seemed to see W.R. as a liberator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But it is the same guy, the one at Rusterman's, who expressed the desire\nto have both on the same page. \"When I was younger, I wanted to own\nan island. An island with beaches and palm trees where I would reign as\nking.\" [...]\n\"I have that island now, but I've seen a better one. A blue isle in a sea\nof black.\" (125)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that is why I said originally that the clone has *a chance* of\nresolving open questions. If I were going to construct a \"THREE Heads of\nCerberus\" model for AEG, I would start by positing that the guy Cassie is\ntalking to in Rusterman's is Reis. I'd build off that and see if the system\neventually falls apart impossibly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy then James then Roy\nPart of his stated ego trip was\nthat he and he alone would possess the most desirable woman\nin the world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It depends on which clone we are talking about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The guy at Rusterman's said it. (125)\nSo did the guy who gave her the\ndiamonds, in almost the same words. (145)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So the guy who gave her the diamonds and the guy she met at Rusterman's do\nnot need to be the same. That fits if Ries is the one who gave her the\nbracelet (which does not need to be the guy she met in the car afterwards)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy then James then Roy\nIf only one guy gets the girl . . . things are bound to get ugly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or if one wants the girl win the most desirable woman and another sees\nher as a terrible threat. IF the clone theory is correct, then Cassie\nseems to suspect on a subconcious level that one of them doesn't\nwant to win her--he wants to kill her. (pg 181)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At that point she was laboring under the false assumption that she had\nbeen\nthe shooter's intended target. (Wolfe characters are forever jumping to\nwrong conclusions.) She later learned from Scott that Norma had been the\nintended target. (188)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...And the false conclusion almost as often turns out to have been true in\nan unexpected sense. Scott says that the ATF shot Norma and that she was the\ntarget. I'm not certain yet how much to believe about that. Remember that it\nwas the US Navy, not W.R., who attacked the Squid God. And yet, it isn't\nentirely accurate to say that W.R. was not behind it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9001AE9EDCD343148422430A041B8256@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-23T00:14:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<494F8523.8050405@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One of the problems with this clone theory is that there should be\nsome sort of coordination among clones in order to avoid tripping\neach other up and exposing themselves. That in turn necessitates\none individual as the prime individual who benefits from the\ncoordinated actions of the others. Otherwise, each individual will\nhave his own agenda, which will lead to conflicts. Reis was a\nmegalomaniac. As such, he could never tolerate rivals of equal\nknowledge, powers and resources. Part of his stated ego trip was\nthat he and he alone would possess the most desirable woman in\nthe world. If only one guy gets the girl . . . things are bound to get \nugly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's not a problem with time-traveling copies. Since it's the same person\nthere's no conflict of interest, and the memories of the older one can keep\nthe coordination on track." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's true, and time-disjunction is addressed in the story. But then it is\nonly addressed in the sense of ethermail, so one has to clear some brambles\nin order to qualify that theory.\n\nDave Tallman said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way: Rian could be a clone, but he can't have been aged to look like\nBill. What prep school would allow a fat, middle-aged-looking man to be a\nstarting quarterback (p. 277)? Bill couldn't be lying about this because he\nexpects Cassie to meet Rian at the wedding (p. 276). It would risk their\nrelationship to tell an outrageous lie that would soon be exposed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point. I forgot about that last night.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00af01c964c7$da8e5400$49d34a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-23T06:29:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James, me, James:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I thought that was the whole point of the clone theory. The clone theory\nallows murderer Reis to give Cassie a deadly bracelet, and island king\nRosenquist to fall in love with Cassie and take it back and give her a\ndiamond one instead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Which one killed a thousand or so people to take control of the islands?\nWhich one benefited?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To take control of them from whom? The Squid God? One man's wild-eyed\nrevolutionary is another's liberator. The lesser king who described the\nevents to Cassie seemed to see W.R. as a liberator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but only while things were good. When push came to shove, Kanoa turned\non him and got him killed. Btw, it was Kanoa who gave another \"W.R.\" name\nfor him, Wiliama 'Aukailani. Between his native and British accents, it's\nhard to tell if the apostrophe represents only one or more than one missing\nletter, but the second name will surely start with \"R\". Anyway, Kanoa calls\nhim \"Bill in private. No side, eh? William, the sailor of Heaven.\" (248)\nThat suggests that the island \"liberator\" is the same guy who gave Cassie\nthe deadly bracelet, William \"Bill\" Reis.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-12-23T07:44:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG and Castleview", "in_reply_to": "<00af01c964c7$da8e5400$49d34a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has anyone brought up Arthur-Guinevere-Merlin rather than Lancelot?\nReis is the High King after all, and GC is definitely a wizard.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4950D362.9070303@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-23T12:02:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG and Castleview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Duffy wrote:\nHas anyone brought up Arthur-Guinevere-Merlin rather than Lancelot?\nReis is the High King after all, and GC is definitely a wizard.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Merlin's love interest was usually Viviane (aka Nimue), the Lady of the \nLake, not Guinevere. Wolfe followed this line in \"The Magic Animal.\" \nViviane and Morgan le Fey are combined in Castleview, and the Merlin \nthere seemed to be the old King Geimreadh (he lived with Viviane, he \nappeared old while she appeared young, and he was key to an act of magic \nin the end).\n\nThe Castleview character I saw as closest to Lancelot was Rex Madadh. He \nwas a fey, a werewolf, but he ended up with the Guinevere of that story \n(Sally). Lancelot had a fey connection too, since he was taken from his \nhuman family as a child and raised by the Lady of the Lake in her \nmagical realm. That's a good fit for Gideon Chase as well.\n\nChase was young, strong, and handsome. These are more traits of Lancelot \nthan Merlin. Lancelot was known to perform healings, as Chase healed \nRian. Lancelot gained favor in King Arthur's court by persuading an \nenemy (Galehaut) to surrender rather than fight. I connect this to the \noil-field deal that Chase did (p. 26) (presumably for Reis, since Sharon \nBench knew his family and was unlikely to have an independent inside \nsource). Chase worked for Reis in the end, and made a major contribution \nto his downfall through Cassie. This was also like Lancelot." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4951774E.4070503@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-23T23:42:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<9001AE9EDCD343148422430A041B8256@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThat's true, and time-disjunction is addressed in the story. But then it is\nonly addressed in the sense of ethermail, so one has to clear some brambles\nin order to qualify that theory.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is some additional evidence: there is a huge palace on Takanga \nHa'i, \"terrace after terrace... accented with palms\" (247). How long \nwould it take to build such a place with native labor? How long to sell \nenough gold to afford it, making only small quantities at a time? \nFast-growing palm trees take ten years to reach a height of 25 feet. I \nsuggest this palace is the work of a decade or more, longer than the \npresident who appointed Reis' replacement has been in office.\n\nSuppose by Woldercan time-warping Reis returned \"early,\" while his \ncounterpart was still in Woldercan. This would give him time to get his \nisland kingdom and financial empire set up under aliases. At the \nscheduled time he could jump in a hopper and \"return\" from space as \nAmbassador Reis.\n\nSharon may have attempted to trace all this and gotten puzzled. Hence \nher apparently silly question to Cassie about the Reis/Rosenquist \nconnection (237)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<495182AE.8040505@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-24T00:30:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG clones", "in_reply_to": "<00af01c964c7$da8e5400$49d34a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nYeah, but only while things were good. When push came to shove, Kanoa turned\non him and got him killed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to see Kanoa as a spy for Cthulhu from the beginning. His phony, \nexaggerated British speech is meant to make people underestimate him \n(like Captain Bram Bert).\n\nWhat things can we deduce about King Kanoa?\n1) Cast spells against seasickness (239).\n2) Hated his father, and was not sorry when he died (239).\n3) Said he couldn't tell anything about the Storm King (239).\n4) Grandfather was a wizard who caught the soul of Hanga (240).\n5) His father placated Hanga with human sacrifices. \"Bit peckish at \ntimes, but aren't we all.\" (241).\n6) Tracked comings and goings of Reis carefully. \"At times I wonder when \nhe sleeps\" (243).\n7) Only lesser king with his own apartment in the palace (243). This \naccess would help him conspire with the assassin.\n8) Fought with and beat up on other men in his village (244).\n9) Knew the Storm King feared depth charges (246).\n10) Bribed by Reis (248).\n11) His play counterpart is Tiny Penniman (249), who also played someone \nin \"The Red Spot\" who enlisted an assassin to kill Cassie's character (61).\n12) A devout worshipper of the Storm King (283).\n13) Used Cassie as a \"puppet ruler\" to kill Bill, just as the assassin \nwanted (284),\n14) Advised her to marry someone familiar with the local situation. He \nmeant himself (284).\n15) Cassie says killing Kanoa was self-defense. \"If I told you what he \nwanted me to do you'd think I was crazy, and he'd have killed me if I \ndidn't do it\" (299). Was it marriage she meant, or becoming a slave of \nthe Storm King (as the assassin wanted her, instructed and tested 251)? \nProbably the latter, since Klauser wouldn't think the former was that crazy." } ] } ] }