Subject: (urth) AEG clones

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 20:55:11 +0000

Given my past antipathy for clone theories, I hesitate to even bring up the
subject, but it's mentioned in the book (p.-296) and I have a sinking
feeling.

Reis thought dying was a bummer, but inevitable. (pp 268-269)

Cassie never actually saw Rian. Wolfe makes a point of having her tell
Klauser that she had to call Rian to tell him that his father was dead.
(296) This was right after Klauser had expressed some doubt about whether
Reis was really dead or not.

Klauser, looking at the aged Cassie, asked about the "Casey girl" that Reis
was going to marry, the one he had seen on vid. Cassie said, "She's gone,
too." "She's passed away, but I'm hoping to bring her back." Klauser then
said, "I believe I understand that as well. You won't want to say anything
more about it." (296) This was right after he mentioned the anticloning
laws.

Klauser asked if Cassie had always been so skinny, then said "Your genes
will control your weight, unless you get as sick as I am or starve. I . . .
" (300) Then he thinks to give her that picture of his healthier, heavier
self and "A younger William Reis than she had ever seen". (301)

He had lost weight because he was sick; she had lost weight because she had
nearly starved on that island, but neither of them was genetically
predisposed to being skinny.

I believe Klauser suspected that the aged woman he was talking to was
actually the same "Casey girl" he had seen on vid, because when she
mentioned having shot a man on the night of the storm, he asked if that man
had been Reis. (299) That, or he thought that one woman was a clone of the
other.

Anyway, when you put this all together in the context of cloning, I suspect
that the image of the much younger Reis in the picture would have a striking
similarity to young Rian. I don't know if Cassie's upcoming trip to
Woldercan is related to cloning.

I don't know if clones have any bearing on Gid and his father. And I don't
know what, if anything, the subject of clones has to do with the larger
story--but it must be there for a reason.

-Roy

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 05:38:20 +0000

> subject, but it's mentioned in the book (p.-296) and I have a sinking

I have absolutely no aversion to clone theories per se, yet I think I can 
give you heartening news that I don't think any of this means Rian is a 
clone. Klauser IMO thinks Ries's fiance was a clone-daughter of the woman he 
is talking to in his living room. When she says she wants to bring her back, 
he presumes she means to create a new clone. She would not want to say more 
about it because it is an illegal activity.

Given that as an explanation (which I think is accurate), is there anything 
said that would be clarified by Rian being a clone of Bill Reis? I can't 
think of anything. I know you don't doubt me when I say I actually wish I 
could. Another thing, weight is to some extent biologically driven, but so 
are heart defects. Now Reis *might* had this sort of thing as a child or he 
might not. We aren't told. Maybe in a sequel. But I'll bet in that sequel, 
Rian is the high king of Takanga.

On the other hand, to have Cassie *never* meet Rian *is* suspicious in a 
Wolfe novel. There were innumerable opportunities before she came to the 
island and during her stay for Wolfe to have them meet (yes, I know we never 
meet Herbie either, but this is different.). But the picture of a younger 
Bill Reis is not telling, since Rian is sixteen and the youngest picture 
she's seen of Bill is when he's at probably twice that age, I'm not sure the 
picture would have raised any eyebrows. But, while Wolfe has left room to 
allow Rian to be revealed as a clone or any number of other things a sequel, 
I'm don't see anything *yet* that actually tips us toward that.

J

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:52:06 +0000

James Wynn wrote:
> is talking to in his living room.

I mentioned that he might have thought that.

> When she says she wants to bring her back,
> he presumes she means to create a new clone. She would not want to say
more > about it because it is an illegal activity.

Yeah, but it was Klauser who brought up the subject, and he brought it up
*before* she said she wanted to bring back the Casey girl. In between, he
asked if Bill was dead. After Cassie said she wanted to bring back the girl
is when he said that he thought he understood that "as well." As well as
what?

> could.

I know. <g> As for clearing anything up, it might lend Reis' dying words
something more than mere poetic sentiment. (283)

 >Another thing, weight is to some extent biologically driven, but so
> are heart defects.

And today's animal clones have sometimes turned out to have subtle defects
that have led to premature death.

[snip]
> Wolfe novel.

Very.

> There were innumerable opportunities before she came to the

You know I don't have a smoking gun, or I would have shown it. But there are
a few other things I chose not to bring up because I can explain them away,
one more easily than the others. That one is where Reis told Cassie, "I'm so
good [as a businessman] that I often need to pretend to be somebody else.
There are antitrust laws, for one thing. There are other reasons as well."
(120) That might mean nothing. Might. But the other things Wolfe went out of
his way to include.

The waitress at Rusterman's who looked like Alexis Cabana asked Cassie if
she was really there to meet Mr. Rosenquist, and said that he was a friend
of Mr. Rusterman. When Cassie asked if there was a real Mr. Rusterman, she
said: "He's the company president. There was another Mr. Rusterman years and
years ago, and he opened the first one. But now this Mr. Rusterman is
president of our whole chain. He's a cousin or something." (118)  Cousin
indeed. We know that Rusterman is really Reis.

Also at Rusterman's, Reis said:
"You were wearing green the first time I saw you."
"In the play? I wasn't. That was brown."
"So it was. I was thinking of the party. I took you home, remember?"
Cassie nodded. "Thank you. You saw _The Red Spot_, though. The final
performance."
"I didn't. I know I said I did, but that was . . ."
"Diplomacy?"
"Yes, exactly. India had given me tickets, and I didn't want to admit I
hadn't used them."(119)

Diplomacy? Cassie had seen him in the audience (53), and at the cast party
he said he had been there. (66) So was he lying then or now? Sure, his first
sight of her could have been on vid; he demonstrated the capability to her
three months later in his car. But Gid had put the glamour on her less than
twenty-four hours before that final performance. So who did she see in the
audience?

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:26:07 +0000

I'm not too convinced of the Rian-clone theory, but another bit of 
evidence is his name. It means "Little King." Since Ries is the King, it 
seems like a "Mini-me" sort of name.

> twenty-four hours before that final performance. So who did she see in the
Ries was telling her a lot of lies at that point; his accounts of the 
gold bracelet were highly contradictory. He didn't know that she knew he 
could walk unseen, or that she caught a glimpse of him at the play. The 
lie kept explanations simple. The alternative of a clone (artificially 
aged to be Bill's double and also taught to walk unseen) is too much.

> indeed. We know that Rusterman is really Reis.
The waitress may be repeating what she was told. We know that the real 
founder of Rusterman's was Marko Vukcic, the childhood friend of Nero 
Wolfe in Montenegro.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:44:27 +0000

>of Mr. Rusterman.[...]Cousin indeed. We know that Rusterman is really Reis.
>Diplomacy? Cassie had seen him in the audience (53), and at the
>cast party he said he had been there. (66) So was he lying then
>or now? So who did she see in the audience?

Well, well, well, Roy. Now we are getting someplace. Welcome. We've been 
expecting you. (bwahahaha)
You see, after Norma's murder, she reflects on the cops query about who 
would want to killer her:

"She had said, 'Nobody! Nobody at all,' but now, as she prepared for bed, 
she wondered whether that answer had been the right one. Bill Ries was a 
murderer and Wally Rosenquist was Bill Reis. But her? Did you give diamond 
bracelets to women you meant to murder." (181)

This is a motif of Wolfe's that occurs from with regularity: The protagonist 
knows that someone is ostensibly operating merely under another alias but 
behaves as if it makes the him a different person. Or the protagonist 
recognizes two separate personalities as the same in some bizarre way for 
bizarre reasons. If Wally and Bill are truely the same person, then Cassie's 
mental wrangling is irrational. Crazy.

But what if Cassie is on to something without realizing it? What if the guy 
who gave Cassie the gold bracelet and the guy who gave her the diamond one 
are *not* the same person. What if the guy who took the deadly gold bracelet 
back were not the guy who gave it to her? What if Wally R. is *not* the 
fellow that the President called one of the most evil men in the world? What 
if the Rusterman cousin is *not* the same person as Rosenquist or Reis? That 
clarifies a lot. Well, actually, it doesn't. But it opens the possibility of 
clarifying a lot. Okay. You've convinced me. We have ourselves a clone story 
here.

J.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:29:09 +0000

> aged to be Bill's double and also taught to walk unseen) is too much.

Why put himself in a position to be caught in a lie that served no purpose?
Why did Wolfe put that bit of conversation in the story?

> founder of Rusterman's was Marko Vukcic, the childhood friend of Nero

I'm not familiar with Nero Wolfe, so I can't address that part. But Cassie
went on to address Reis as Wade, which was Rusterman's given name. He said,
"Call me Wally, please. I prefer it. Here." (120) Had Reis merely wanted to
own a restaurant chain, he could have bought it and kept the franchise name
but purchased it under some name other that Rusterman. That would have
avoided the whole "cousin" angle. Maybe someone felt it necessary to invent
the cousin story to offer a plausable reason for an uncanny resemblance
between company presidents. Or to explain why the current president had not
aged as much as he should have after "years and years".

Anyway, if there are no clones in the story, why did Wolfe bring up the
subject in the last chapter? If he hadn't, I wouldn't have brought this
topic up. I hate clone theories. <g>

-Roy

---

From: stoneox17 at aol.com <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:46:02 +0000

Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> writes

===============

Diplomacy? Cassie had seen him in the audience (53), and at the cast 
party
he said he had been there. (66) So was he lying then or now? Sure, his 
first
sight of her could have been on vid; he demonstrated the capability to 
her
three months later in his car. But Gid had put the glamour on her less 
than
twenty-four hours before that final performance. So who did she see in 
the
audience?
============

I have a theory here. At first, Cassie looks out at the audience from a
peephole, and doesn't see Reis. While she is onstage, she glances out
and sees him, and later, she looks out from the peephole again and
doesn't see him (52-53). This is all in the chapter titled "The Unseen
Audience." My theory is that Reis was there the whole time, but he was
using his powers of invisibility, and somehow, while she is onstage, 
Cassie's
glamour enable her to see him, but it only works while she's acting.

This seems more likely than Reis having  snuck in and out during the
performance unnoticed (although he could have used his powers for
that as well.

So the reason that Reis claims he wasn't there is that he has no idea
anyone was able to see him.

Peter

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:54:01 +0000

> clarifying a lot. Okay. You've convinced me. We have ourselves a clone story 
Reis admits to Cassie early on that he started out trying to entrap and 
destroy her (pp. 125, 145). He eventually admits that the gold bracelet 
was radioactive (p. 270). "(Reis) The gold I gave you made you think of 
that first bracelet... (Cassie) We've already talked a little about the 
gold. Radioactive gold... (Reis) We have."

So it's not surprising that he told her lies about it at first. He said 
it was "Eighteen karat, which means it's pretty soft" (p. 67). Eighteen 
karat gold is only 75% gold, and jewelry made with it need not be soft, 
depending on what metals it's mixed with. Later he says it weighed ten 
ounces, and the German craftsman used all ten ounces of the gold Reis 
gave him (p. 122). In other words, it was 100% gold (24 karat), and that 
would indeed be soft. He was maximizing the harm it could do her, though 
that couldn't have been his whole plan to destroy her.

At the party, he claimed he had made it months ago and only decided whom 
to give it to after seeing Cassie in the play (p. 67). From what we know 
above. that was also a lie.

The odd thing is the timing of his change of heart. He knew he had made 
a mistake when he saw her coming up to the microphone to get the gold 
bracelet (p. 145). He persisted for a little while out of stubbornness, 
but scrapped his plan while they sat together in the car that first 
night they met (p. 145). But if it was indeed Reis who saw at least a 
little of the play, why didn't her glamour start charming him out of his 
plan earlier?

The man at the play (p. 53) was possibly Bill's clone, double by magical 
illusion, or shape-changing werewolf. That man was most likely the one 
who waited in the alley to give Cassie something, and who bribed Jimmy 
one hundred dollars to carry a message to her (p. 56). Jimmy died 
shortly after that (p. 65), possibly scared to death by the man.

Simpler, though, would be the idea that Bill was there too briefly to be 
affected deeply, or that he was present only by hologram and got a 
diminished glamour effect. He could be the man in the alley himself.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:27:59 +0000

> Why did Wolfe put that bit of conversation in the story?
If Bill was actually in the "empty" seat the whole time, then perhaps 
"You were wearing green the first time I saw you," is a lie and yet not 
a lie. During the play Cassie was projecting Mildred, the soon-to-be 
murder victim. When he saw her in green she was herself.

I also think her love glamour worked through proximity. Bill started 
changing his mind about destroying her when she came up to the 
microphone, and completely dumped the idea when she sat beside him in 
the car. The distance from the stage to his seat was too far for him to 
get the full effect.

So, suppose he sat through the whole play, invisible. There are a couple 
of good reasons for changing his story. The first is that Cassie or 
Chase might have checked with the ushers and found out his reserved seat 
was empty. Reis had to say he lied about being there or admit he walked 
invisible. More importantly, he didn't want to be associated with the 
death of her friend Jimmy. If he admitted being there, he would be 
admitting he could be the man in the alley who bribed Jimmy and possibly 
murdered him. That wouldn't be a good start to his intended relationship.

> Maybe someone felt it necessary to invent
Possibly. I still think we are invited to check the history of the 
Rusterman name in the Nero Wolfe books and see if it was merely an 
invented name to avoid annoying xenophobic Americans with a strange name 
like "Vukcic's."  (I don't have the books handy now). If so, this cousin 
stuff is just an in-joke.

> topic up. I hate clone theories. <g
Clones in other Wolfe works are a sign of a failing, narcissistic 
society ("Cherry Jubilee", and especially "In Looking-Glass Castle"). We 
know that natural children are barely valued (the bus accident report 
and the Supreme Court ruling about infanticide on p. 86).  That may be 
enough of a reason to include them, without having an actual clone in 
the plot.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:23:34 +0000

Sigh. Tsk tsk tsk.

Here comes a litany of elaborate theories for each of a series of pointless 
"lies" Reis/Rosenquist/Rusterman tells a when a single global explanation 
stands a decent chance of explaining it all. Why? Because it is 
aesthetically unappealing (to some). Personally, I find a single leap to 
explain many mysteries more aesthetically appealing than a dozen leaps and 
buying offs on lame excuses by Reis to explain a dozen strange lies.

Look, Reis says that he saw Cassie for the first time wearing a green dress 
at the party. He says he didn't see the final performance of "The Red Spot". 
Even though we know he saw her in the play. What possible reason could he 
have to lie to Cassie about that? Maybe he found the truth aesthetically 
unappealing?

J.

---

From: stoneox17 at aol.com <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 04:04:34 +0000

I think I've discovered another clue: Gideon is a phenomenal
hypnotist. Here's the evidence:

Talking with the president, Gideon says:
"There is even hypnosis, with which a skillful operator can do
much more than the public has been led to believe." (20)

and at the mountain (all but the last ellipsis are mine):

  "'Sit down.' Gideon sat on a smaller stone facing hers. ...
She found that she was seated, although she had not
intended to sit. ...
   "'The first thing I must explain is how badly you need sleep.
... I want you to sleep in the car as we drive home. You
should sleep all morning, if you can. I know you must be very,
very tired ...." Behind him: great, dark wings." (43)

And indeed, Cassie does sleep through the ride back, and
wakes up just in time for lunch at Walker's.

So where does hypnotism (maybe post-hypnotic suggestion)
reappear later in the book?

Peter?

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:08:44 +0000

> have to lie to Cassie about that? Maybe he found the truth aesthetically 
How much a person lies and why gives important insights into his or her 
character. Cassie lies compulsively, even in situations where the other 
person knows she is lying ("I won the lottery. That's the total, 
absolute, brass-bound truth" p. 120), and when she was specifically 
warned not to lie ("If anyone asks, tell them the absolute truth about 
my coming here today and my leaving here" (p. 94).  "He hasn't been in 
contact..." (p. 124)).

Reis seems to be different. He lies only for calculated reasons, and 
expects he'll have to admit the truth eventually. When Cassie calls him 
"Bill" and asks if he found anything in her apartment, he says she has 
saved him weeks and admits the search (p. 119). So you're right, I 
prefer to find logical explanations for his lies rather than say that he 
simply felt like it.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:19:52 +0000

> reappear later in the book?
Cassie appears to be much more honest in reporting things to Chase than 
to any other person. You can always count on her to lie, at least by 
omission, to anyone else. That might be post-hypnotic suggestion.

Here's another one I'm curious about, though it happens before the 
mountain hypnosis. Sharon tells Cassie that thinking about lipstick 
names puts her to sleep (p. 24). Then Aaberg tells her "Got to watch 
that one. It'll put you to sleep" (p. 30). Minutes later, she has fallen 
deeply asleep in Chase's car. Normally a person who goes out armed to a 
risky encounter in the middle of the night in a bad neighborhood with a 
stranger who might not be who they say they are wouldn't fall asleep 
just like that. Was some form of hypnotic suggestion involved?

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:25:00 +0000

>What if the guy who gave Cassie the gold bracelet and the guy who
>gave her the diamond one are *not* the same person. What if the guy who
>took the deadly gold bracelet back were not the guy who gave it to her?
>What if Wally R. is *not* the fellow that the President called one of the
>most evil men in the world? What if the Rusterman cousin is *not* the
>same person as Rosenquist or Reis?

I just remembered something else that tips the balance in favor of Roy's 
clone theory. When the President is briefing Chase:
-------
[The president says] "...come in, John! I said if there was only one evil 
man in the world, it'd have to be Bill Reis. There's a hell of a lot of evil 
men in the world."
"Three in particular", the man the president called John added.
"We haven't gotten to that yet, John, and I don't think we will." The 
president motioned towrd a chair. "Sit down."
"My error, Mr. President, I didn't know we were excluding the Senate."
-------

The president's reaction to John's "Three" comment suggests something 
substantial that the president doesn't want to share with Chase.
John's comment about the Senate is certainly a joke to cover his speaking 
out of turn.
So if Bill Reis is one of the evil men in the world who are the other two 
that John referred to?
Wally Rosenquist and Wade Rusterman? So are we talking about three separate 
men here?

J.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:12:55 +0000

More candidates for the three most evil men in the world:

1) The man who set up the illusion-cult tomb in "Memorare" (his statue 
looks like Gene Wolfe).
2) King Kanoa, probably a major Cthulhu-cult leader.
3) Real Senators known to the president, if John wasn't joking.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:21:57 +0000

Another, maybe too obvious, three candidates are Gideon Chase, the
president, and the man the president calls John.  Note that "John"
isn't saying the three men are the "three most evil"--he's responding
to the President's claim that "There's a hell of a lot of evil men in
the world" by saying that "three in particular" are at issue--why not
the three in the room?  Is Wolfe telling us, up front, by means of
what might be "John's" practiced cynicism, that Chase and the US
government are on the side of the devils?

On 12/16/08, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote:
> 1) The man who set up the illusion-cult tomb in "Memorare" (his statue looks
> like Gene Wolfe).
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:24:17 +0000

James Wynn wrote:
> So if Bill Reis is one of the evil men in the world who are the other 
> two that John referred to?
> Wally Rosenquist and Wade Rusterman? So are we talking about three 
> separate men here?
>   
I'm still unsure, but the idea is growing on me a little. There's the 
odd change of names at the end:
"Oh Bill, my poor Bill. Why did you have to die?"..."Please, oh please 
Wally! Come back to me!" This makes sense if Cassie has figured out that 
they are two different people.

Another way to get doubles other than cloning is by time-travel. If a 
person hopped to Woldercon, there' s a possibility that they could 
return before they left. Early on, Reis shows uncanny speed in reacting 
to Cassie's recruitment by Chase. He gets a play book written, a 
bracelet made, and a director in place before she has even performed 
once at star level. Time-travel might explain this.

On the other hand, if Bill Reis had clones or temporal doubles who were 
working with him, then we would expect them to help him when he needed 
to be in two places at once. We have a case where it would have been 
convenient for this to have happened and it didn't: the date with Cassie 
at Rusterman's. Reis wanted to go out with her and also search her 
apartment. If he had a co-operative double, why not do both and give 
himself an alibi for the search?

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:36:03 +0000

A third possibliity is that the President did not know that Reise, Rosinquist
and Rusterman were the same person.

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 4:24 AM, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote:
> I'm still unsure, but the idea is growing on me a little. There's the odd
> change of names at the end:
> Another way to get doubles other than cloning is by time-travel. If a person
> hopped to Woldercon, there' s a possibility that they could return before
> they left. Early on, Reis shows uncanny speed in reacting to Cassie's
> recruitment by Chase. He gets a play book written, a bracelet made, and a
> director in place before she has even performed once at star level.
> Time-travel might explain this.
>
> working with him, then we would expect them to help him when he needed to be
> in two places at once. We have a case where it would have been convenient
> for this to have happened and it didn't: the date with Cassie at
> Rusterman's. Reis wanted to go out with her and also search her apartment.
> If he had a co-operative double, why not do both and give himself an alibi
> for the search?
>

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com

I once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a
restaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand
Island Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:30:15 +0000

> Time-travel might explain this.

Did Reis write the play for Cassie?  I was of the impression that
Chase knew about Reis's play, and made Cassie into a star in order to
infiltrate the play, but I don't know why it is I think this.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:44:58 +0000

> infiltrate the play, but I don't know why it is I think this.
I had the impression he wrote it for her (as part of a trap, initially).
Reis seems to admit it here: "I'm financing the show you're in as a vehicle
for you, Cassie." (p. 144). I believe it was meant to send a message to
Chase: "You think you can recruit someone to spy on me? Look how quickly I
can entrap and destroy her. You'd better join my side."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20081218/24b7292c/attachment-0001.htm>

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:26:28 +0000

> the car. The distance from the stage to his seat was too far for him to

Regardless of exactly when or why Reis had a change of heart, Cassie saw him
in the audience and he stated at the cast party that he had seen the play.

> was empty.

What reserved seat? The theater wasn't anywhere near full and she saw Reis
in the second row, not the first, where a reserved seat would be.

I don't know if it is relevant (Wolfe might have made a mistake), but there
is a ticket discrepancy. At the cast party Reis said that India had given
him "a ticket". (66) At Rusterman's he said India had given him "tickets,
and I didn't want to admit I hadn't used them." (119)

> Reis had to say he lied about being there or admit he walked
> invisible.

Gid (or someone) had already told her that Reis "walks unseen" in the note
written on the back of one of the pictures he left her the night before the
play. (44) With that in mind, go back and read carefully the bit at the top
of page 21, as he was leaving the White House. On a sunny day. If I were a
rabid clone theorist, I would also start wondering about John's glasses (15)
and Gid's cryptic little dig at him about optics. (19) And why Reis wears
glasses only in some photos. He was wearing glasses when she saw him in the
audience.

> More importantly, he didn't want to be associated with the

There is no way Reis could have avoided being associated with Jimmy. He, or
his proxy, had been the big guy who sent Jimmy to Cassie with the message
about the gift, right after the play ended. She got the message and sent
Jimmy with a reply, and Reis knew it. It was a very foolish thing for him to
have brought up the subject again at all, much less to contradict himself
over such a small matter as when he first saw her.

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:45:19 +0000

Roy C. Lackey wrote:

> By "reserved seat" I really meant "the seat assigned by India's free
ticket." Regardless of how full or empty a theater is, patrons normally sit
where their ticket says. So this is something Cassie might check. Reis must
have thought he was fully invisible the whole time. He had no idea that
Cassie's star-power had penetrated his ability to cloud men's minds. If he
thought she had checked, then he might choose to change his story.

> and I didn't want to admit I hadn't used them." (119)
I wouldn't worry about the plural discrepancy. India probably gave him two
tickets in case he chose to attend with a companion. His story at the party
was that he went alone, and hence used only one ticket.

> glasses only in some photos. He was wearing glasses when she saw him in the

Perhaps Gid can also "walk unseen" when he wants to, and was worried about
shadows. A few points about "optics":
1) Gid may be referring to the ability to walk unseen, since it is a skill
used and taught on Woldercan.
2) Since we have laser surgery even today, one would think ordinary glasses
to correct vision would be obsolete.
3) The assassin says she wears glasses that let her see in the dark (p.
249). John's glasses may be of this type.
4) John's glasses are thick (giving the impression of blindness, p. 15) and
making eye contact difficult. That might be a precaution against hypnotism.
5) The glasses are only seen in the full-length shot (p. 44), perhaps taken
without Reis knowing. The close-ups may be posed. Reis may wear glasses in
public as a disguise.

Speaking of invisibility, here is a really strange instance. Vince Palma
brushes an "invisible yellow feather" from his lips at the party (p. 64). He
will wear a headdress of red and yellow feathers as the Volcano God (p.
285). Is he wearing this at the "Red Spot" party, and rendering it invisible
by mental powers? He seems to be one powerful guy:
1) He knows about Gray Neighbors and banshees (p. 64).
2) He plays with Cassie like a cat with a mouse (p. 63).
3) He knows Cassie's real name (p. 63), which she is startled to find out
that Reis knows later (p. 146).
3) His voice makes everything he says sound important (p. 285).

His role in "The Red Spot" is minor (a poor scheming detective p. 63), but
Rosenquist picks him out for the Volcano God at once. Who is Vince Palma
really? Is he possessed by the Volcano God, perhaps under the control of
Bill Reis? The real Volcano God looks like him when he appears to Cassie, so
there seems to be something there...
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20081218/1007e644/attachment.htm>

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 00:13:48 +0000

> without Reis knowing. The close-ups may be posed. Reis may wear glasses in

Well, this rings a bell.  Pulp of the 1930s, guy with powers who
glasses used as a disguise and has a colleague/rival who's a detective
and financial wizard with a cool car?

We're looking at Superman.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:05:41 +0000

>He had no idea that Cassie's star-power had penetrated his ability to cloud men's minds. 
>If he thought she had checked, then he might choose to change his story.

Errr...if this is so, why didn't her star power allow her to penetrate it later in the restaurant when she watched him disappear?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20081218/e128ece4/attachment.htm>

---

From: Henry Eissler <henryeissleriii at mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 02:43:42 +0000

of Cassie.
    You were the one that pointed out that Gideon may have infused her 
with the spirit of the banshee - the Washer at the Ford.  I think the 
Cassie part of Cassie came close to dying on the Volcano God's island, 
but that last line at the end shows that she's not gone- she's the one 
that liked to call him "Wally."
    As to why Dr. Chase would have wanted to put the spirit of a 
mountain god's wife into her... who knows.
    ---H

Dave Tallman wrote:
> Wally! Come back to me!" This makes sense if Cassie has figured out 
> that they are two different people.
>

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 04:51:26 +0000

> mountain god's wife into her... who knows.
I don't think Cassie was infused with a different spirit. Chase speaks 
of energizing her innate star potential (p. 41). I pretty much gave up 
on the "Washer at the Ford" theory after I found another reference that 
fit better. Here it is, as I wrote it up for WolfeWiki:

    * "A mountain whose wife washed clothes?" (pp. 41-42, 83) is a
      reference to Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town
      <http://craphound.com/someone/Cory_Doctorow_-_Someone_Comes_to_Town_Someone_Leaves_Town.htm>
      by Cory Doctorow. The protagonist Alan's father was a mountain and
      his mother was a washing machine. Credit for discovering this
      belongs to Marc Aramini. It's a perfect match:

   1. The mountain quakes when it's angry.
   2. There are gnomes and golems in its caves.
   3. The setting is near Toronto, Canada. (The protagonist goes to
      Willowdale, a suburb of Toronto, at one point).
   4. The nearest large mountain to Toronto is Blue Mountain. There is a
      trek to the summit which takes about 2.5 hours on foot.

I now see a better banshee connection with the winged creatures one 
chapter title calls "Death's Visitors." Each time they to speak to 
Cassie it is right after a violent death (Norma Peiper, Florence McNair, 
and  Bill Reis). They call Cassie "our cub" (p. 235), so she is a 
banshee by adoption, at least.

    * The winged "Death's Visitors" (pp. 182, 234-236, 284) are probably
      harpies
      <http://www.angelfire.com/realm/shades/demons/harpies.htm>, winged
      Greek death-spirits also associated with storms. Banshees are also
      a form of harpies.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 05:11:01 +0000

James Wynn wrote:
 > >He had no idea that Cassie's star-power had penetrated his ability to
 > > cloud men's minds. If he thought she had checked, then he might 
choose to
 > > change his story.
 >
 > Errr...if this is so, why didn't her star power allow her to penetrate it
 > later in the restaurant when she watched him disappear?

I like I suggestion I saw on the lists here recently that her power is 
extra-strong when she is performing on stage. It makes both the play and 
the audience more real to her, as seen in this quote: "...the play had 
become far more serious and real, a real life -- hers -- watched not at 
all strangely by several hundred people sitting in the dark" (p. 52).

It was during the performance that she stole a glance at the audience 
and saw Bill. When she had exited, she looked out the peephole and could 
no longer see him (p. 53).

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 07:01:19 +0000

Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:
> shadows.

He said he couldn't do it, but might be able to learn if he tried for a year
or two. (196) My point is, yes, he thought he might be followed from the
White House in the conventional gumshoe sense, but he amended his thought to
wonder if he was also "being followed already." (21) So he tried to tire and
lose "his unseen companion--or companions--if he could." I find the choice
of the word "unseen" to be just too coincidental, given what he soon wrote
on the back of that photo. I think he was looking for shadows that should't
have been there.

> A few points about "optics":

Humans can and have walked unseen long before they discovered Woldercan.
(198)

> 249). John's glasses may be of this type.

It was daytime. In the White House.

> without Reis knowing. The close-ups may be posed. Reis may wear glasses in

Sunglasses are a given. (44) But in a darkened theater at night, why would a
man who is invisible wear glasses to disguise himself? Why show up invisible
at all? He was invited. And the Jimmy incident happened after the play was
over.

> by mental powers? He seems to be one powerful guy:

I took the yellow feather bit as just a continuation of the cat analogy. As
in the common expression "the cat that ate the canary". He is pompous, smug,
just full of himself.

> there seems to be something there...

Yeah, but I'm not sure what. Maybe this is a clue: Vince claims to be 6'4";
Reis is 6'2". I can't recall if Gil is said to be slightly taller than Gid,
but Klauser thought the "Casey girl" was about a half inch taller than the
aged Cassie. (295) That's an odd thing for a man who saw the glamourized
Cassie only on vid to say. But there might be a pattern there.

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:34:28 +0000

Roy C. Lackey wrote:
> at all?
Reis had a lot of enemies, including the F.B.I., the A.T.F., and Cthulhu 
cultists. He would be sensible to take any number of precautions when 
going to a public place where someone might expect him to be (if India 
talked, for example). He attended all his son's football games invisibly 
(p. 277).

Why disguise himself when he's already invisible? It seems cameras can 
defeat glamours (the photo of Gib showed him as he really was) and maybe 
invisibility too, since it works on the same principle. That gives 
another possible explanation for John's thick glasses. They could 
conceal a camera and video feed, so he could have "true sight." Chase 
might have been telling John that the Woldercans could do the same thing 
without being so obvious, with their superior science of optics.

> in the common expression "the cat that ate the canary". He is pompous, smug,
That's a plausible alternative. Still, Wolfe goes out of his way to 
mention the yellow feathers in the headdress later, so I tend to think 
this is a clue.

> Cassie only on vid to say. But there might be a pattern there.
So maybe Vince is a clone or temporal double of Reis, using a glamour to 
appear different? That could be it. And if so that makes Norma Peiper 
the real ex-wife of Reis or his equivalent, just as I suspected. "I used 
to be married to the volcano god." (p. 176)

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:13:48 +0000

May I say that this is the strangest post I have yet seen on this listserv. And the AEG discussions are usually pretty damn weird, if you haven't read the thing.

I'm impressed and a little apprehensive, but I'm waiting for the paperback ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:51:26 -0700
From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) AEG clones...send them in
To: urth at lists.urth.net
Message-ID: <494B284E.6080300 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 081218-0, 12/18/2008
Tested on: 12/19/2008 1:13:50 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:55:42 +0000

> to be married to the volcano god." (p. 176)

I was thinking that people who have been artificially enhanced in some way,
like Cassie, are made to appear literally larger than life, so to speak. The
height comparisons pop up too often to be anything but deliberate. There is
another that I forgot, the chauffeur Carlos. "He looked taller and darker
than the uniformed man she remembered seeing when she had looked down at the
white limousine." (116)

I'm still not convinced about Norma. For one thing, the rich woman Sharon
talked about was said to be devoted to her son. I have a hard time believing
that a rich woman devoted to her child would spend time slumming as an
actress in a second-rate theater production like _The Red Spot_. A rich
ex-wife could have bought her own show on Broadway and starred in it if she
had the acting bug. Just before Norma was killed, she seemed to be concerned
that she might be replaced in the proposed expanded production of Reis'
play, and wanted Cassie to use her clout to save her job. If she were rich,
all she had to do was slip greedy India enough money and her job would be
secure. Plus, I have doubts about any woman, particularly a rich woman,
wanting to play second-fiddle to another woman in a play produced by her ex,
especially when the ex is obviously infatuated with the star. Ain't natural.

-Roy

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:05:33 +0000

> especially when the ex is obviously infatuated with the star. Ain't natural.

This is a pretty convincing argument, IMHO.  I think maybe we're
looking at a parallel rather than an identity.  Reis has used the
Vincent/Norma relationship to mirror his relationship with his
ex-wife.

But why?  I think this comes back to the bigger question--what's the
purpose of Dating the Volcano God?

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:12:06 +0000

> purpose of Dating the Volcano God?

I'm NOT GOING TO MAKE A JOKE ABOUT

"Getting his rocks off."

OH CRAP.

Adam
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 4988 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20081219/a8d08188/attachment.bin>

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:33:08 +0000

Stupid me. Wolfe hid the answer in plain sight.

first
than
> twenty-four hours before that final performance. So who did she see in the

In fairness to myself, my OED failed me. But when I complained to my wife
about it after school today, she knew right off the definition I was looking
for, and Google confirmed it.

Reis did lie to Cassie, but his lie was in the attempt to cover up the truth
about what she was wearing the first time he saw her. I knew there had to be
a text-based solution, so I went looking for every mention of Cassie's
clothes before the play. I found the green dress; I just didn't know the
meaning of the word. "The warmer dress she had put on for the short walk to
Baskin-Robbins hung neatly beside it. Its loden wool held a sweet and smoky
aroma, with a bitter undercurrent." (43) Loden is a shade of green, as any
woman could tell you. That is the dress Cassie was wearing when Reis first
saw her.

She had that dress on only from the time she dressed for the ice cream
store, shortly before midnight, until Gideon (or someone) undressed her
after taking her home. Sometime that night, presumably after Gid cast the
glamour on her, Reis saw her and wanted her. That's why he went to India at
noon before the play to become her "angel" in a big, new musical.

But this brings up two more questions: Exactly when and where did Reis see
her that night? And was Gid complicit in the viewing? What kind of gentleman
hypnotizes a woman he just met, plants suggestions and leaves a void in her
memory, then takes her home and takes her clothes off? OTOH, Gid did arrange
for video publicity from Sharon during the day, before the play that
evening.

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:40:16 +0000

Roy C. Lackey wrote:

> Those other options would have reduced Norma's privacy. The rich woman
seems to have sworn Sharon to secrecy about her identity. There could be
good reasons for this, like the fear of Bill's enemies. If Norma was that
woman, we can see that her fears were justified.

There may also be wheels within wheels as far as her motivations for getting
close to Cassie.
1) Reis may have put her up to it initially, as part of a trap.
2) The ATF may have forced her into it by threats, since they use
ex-spouses.
3) She may not like Cassie as much as she appears. Knowing Cassie's constant
concern about her weight, she tempted her with a plate of fattening food (p.
60).
4) She can't stop smiling when Cassie is onstage with her. Is this a normal
reaction to Cassie's star-attraction. or a cover?
5) She does enough calling to Cassie that her name pops into Cassie's head
when she needs a quick alibi for a phone call from Chase.
6) The sniper seemed to know the path the women would take, and Norma
suggested the departure together and led the way.
7) She was wearing a black wool coat that night, suggesting she is a "black
sheep."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20081219/a4a27e15/attachment.htm>

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:51:12 +0000

> for video publicity from Sharon during the day, before the play that
Good catch on the loden wool. I was just looking it up because I wanted to
find other mentions of wool garments (besides Norma's black wool coat), but
I missed the color clue in the references I found.

Here's on possibility on the viewing: the cop who picks up Cassie (Aaberg)
turns out to be a double agent for Reis. He had a computer monitor in his
car. In BotLS, computer monitors that seem to be off can be used to spy on
people. Reis could have gotten a look at her through the monitor.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20081219/0235afeb/attachment.htm>

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 01:33:48 +0000

Not only is loden a shade of green, but, as my wife just informed me,
it's mossy green.
This seems to me to connect Cassie to Disiri, the Queen of the Moss
Aelf. Both get "elevated" above their natural metaphysical status.

-- 
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 05:11:53 +0000

> woman, we can see that her fears were justified.

There are two simple means to satisfy privacy conserns:
1) Don't talk to gossip reporters.
2) Stay out of the limelight.

-Roy

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 06:04:27 +0000

> people. Reis could have gotten a look at her through the monitor.

The glamour was put on Cassie in Canada. Aaberg wasn't in a position to see
the new Cassie.

Before the glamour, Cassie was just a thirtyish, second-rate actress and no
particular beauty. The girl at Baskin-Robbins had no regard for her at all,
unlike the waitresses and everyone else who saw her after that night.
Without Gid's glamour, Reis wouldn't have looked twice at her--which is
exactly why Gid put it on her.

The photo Gid listened to at the White House was obviously made shortly
after Reis was replaced as ambassador, 2-3 years earlier. He already had
plans for his South Seas kingdom when he left Woldercan. He was probably
looking for the right woman to satisfy his lust and ego as his high queen.
Gid already knew about Cassie from seeing her in other plays over the years.
(207) The most desirable woman in the world was the perfect bait, and Reis
took it.

Btw, Aaberg was made to look like Scott, which means that Gid knew all about
Cassie's past when he left her that first note. And it suggests that Gid put
a slight glamour on Aaberg to make him look that way. And when Cassie first
saw Aaberg:

"'The man who entered was both tall and wide, nearing middle age. Cassie
gasped, 'Scott . . . ?'
'Who's that?' His voice was deep and a trifle raspy."

That sounds a lot like the descriptions and voice of Reis. Just so we don't
forget about clones. <g>

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:05:16 +0000

> exactly why Gid put it on her.
If Reis had come to see Cassie full of love from the beginning I would 
have to agree with you that he only saw her in glamorized form. He 
didn't: he came with murderous intent because he wanted to prove his 
power to Chase.

Cassie's change was of personal magnetism and presence. Her face wasn't 
changed; her friends still recognized her. Chase admitted to himself 
that he loved her before the change and would continue to if she lost it 
(p. 81). Chase also there was a chance Reis would kill Cassie just for 
talking to him. He thought the odds were equal whether she transformed 
or not (pp. 31-32).

I think it's far more likely that Reis saw Cassie in the loden wool 
dress that night by means of Aaberg (whether by his computer monitor or 
some other hidden camera) than that Chase forwarded videos to him of 
Cassie after she was transformed. Chase and Reis were not on good terms 
at that point.

> a slight glamour on Aaberg to make him look that way.
I agree that Aaberg was probably enchanted by Chase that night. Not only 
did he look like Scott to Cassie but he seems to have had a power of 
hypnosis -- his suggestion about lipstick putting her to sleep really 
did. The height, weight, and voice clues are interesting, but I don't 
believe that Aaberg is a clone of Reis. It may just show she had loved 
and married Reis' physical type before.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:15:23 +0000

> 2) Stay out of the limelight.

My theory is that Sharon ferreted out the information that Norma was the 
ex-wife of a famous rich former ambassador and approached Norma for an 
interview. Norma managed to get her to be quiet about it. Norma did 
about as well as she could to avoid the limelight, if she wanted to act 
at all.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 03:53:47 +0000

>a text-based solution...Sometime that night, presumably after Gid cast the

It's true that Cassie wears green prior to the party, but this solution is 
no more "text-based" than your prior theory. It is significantly less so, 
really, since it relies on reams of supposition about what might have or 
have not happened between the time Cassie reached the mountain and when she 
got home. Rather than solving anything, it inelegantly raises an 
intimidating army of intractable mysteries.

On the other hand, your prior theory succeeds in resolving the issue of why 
Reis was lying up a storm about seeing her at the play. Why *after the fact* 
would Reis need to lie about seeing her at the play? Because no one else saw 
him there? So what? So they didn't see him. He just says, "You must have 
missed seeing me."

J.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 06:15:32 +0000

James Wynn quoted from two different paragraphs I wrote and tied them

> >noon before the play to become her "angel" in a big, new musical.

What I actually wrote was:
[begin quote]
> noon before the play to become her "angel" in a big, new musical.
[end quote]

> no more "text-based" than your prior theory.

The text-based solution I meant, as the remainder of my original paragraph
makes clear, is the solution to the question of what green dress Cassie wore
before the play that Reis could have seen her wearing.

> It is significantly less so,

Inelegantly? Oh, dear. As for the mysteries, they come with the territory.

> Reis was lying up a storm about seeing her at the play.

Only if there really are clones of Reis in the story. No smoking gun has yet
been found. The loden dress doesn't kill the clone theory.

> Why *after the fact*
> would Reis need to lie about seeing her at the play?

I still have not seen a good answer for that, or I would have abandoned the
clone theory.

-Roy

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 09:17:32 +0000

> together with [...] (minus the brackets), which distorts the meaning:

First off: This is unmitigated crap. I tied together the points I was 
directly responding to with an ellipsis . Since when are the additional 
brackets required? Anyone following the thread will have read the original 
post for its full beauty. It's fine for you to clarify, but the segments I 
provided do not distort the meaning of anything you said. I certainly didn't 
do anything to *dishonestly* distort their meaning as your reply implied 
(intentionally or not). Is there a point in the original that deserves 
reiteration? Is there a nuance that didn't carry the first time? Okay. That 
happens to me too.

> before the play that Reis could have seen her wearing.

Didn't carry. And it's not text based either, which is probably why it 
didn't. Reis never said AFAIK that he saw Cassie in the dress *before* the 
play. He said he saw Cassie wearing the dress at the party. Quote: "I was 
thinking of the party. I took you home, remember?" Maybe he lied. But then 
the whole conversation is a lie without any mixture of truth. So, maybe he's 
lying about her being in a green dress the first time he saw her as well? 
Maybe he's lying about loving her? Maybe Gid had him take her home from the 
mountain. But why all the lies? He knows that Cassie is working for Gid. 
Either way, he knows she knows he knows she is working for Gid.

On the other hand, we have Wolfe's M.O. of having people tell apparent lies 
that end up being the truth. This theory doesn't fit that, but your previous 
one did.

> Inelegantly? Oh, dear. As for the mysteries, they come with the territory.

Roy, you discarded (perhaps only temporarily) an explanation **for this 
scene** that tied up a bunch of loose ends in a single sweep and devised one 
instead that generates out of thin air an entire novel's worth of mysteries. 
"Comes with the territory"? You're leveraging the Lousiana Purchase with 
pocket change. It doesn't mean its not true, but it certainly isn't based on 
a more *literal* reading.

>been found. The loden dress doesn't kill the clone theory.

But it *is* an alternate theory. And as for being useful as a theory, it 
creates a irresolvable mess that would turn further consideration of "what 
is really going on" into pure augury.

The answer isn't going to come as a smoking gun. It's going to come from the 
preponderance of the evidence. It will come from an explanation (or a short 
list of explanations) that makes the story fit together.

J.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:27:46 +0000

> intimidating army of intractable mysteries.
That may be true of Roy's original theory, but not of my revised version 
(that Reis saw her before the glamour, using Aaberg as his spy). Chase 
simply took her home -- no extra suppositions are needed.

> him there? So what? So they didn't see him. He just says, "You must have 
Statements by Reis:
1) "...I saw 'The Red Spot' tonight..." (p. 67).
2) "You were wearing green the first time I saw you." (p. 119)
3) "I was thinking of the party." (p. 119)
4) "I didn't [see the play]. I know I said I did, but that was..." (p. 119)

The hard one to explain is #4. He chose to contradict himself, when he 
could have kept consistent by sticking to the idea that he was just 
thinking about the party, that her brown dress in the play didn't count 
because she in a role, etc.

Clone theory: 1) F, 2) T, 3) T, 4) T. More trues than falses this way, 
but why not keep it simple and take the actions of his clone for his own?

Loden dress theory: 1) T, 2) T, 3) F, 4) F. In this one, he had been 
caught in an admission he didn't want to make (#2). He covered for it 
clumsily, perhaps because he was flustered.

The Rusterman conversation is full of lies and half-truths on both 
sides. Part of the fun is figuring them out. His explanation of the 
reason he took the bracelet back from Margaret is at least full of lies 
by omission. "I had hoped that you would love it..." (and get radiation 
poisoning).

---

From: John Smith <jsmith2627 at att.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:30:16 +0000

--- On Sun, 12/21/08, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote:

> Subject: Re: (urth) AEG clones
 His
> explanation of the 

Common gold Au 197 is stable, but all other gold isotopes are highly radioactive.   Isn't a gold  isotope a clone (an evil clone) of the true metal?  

Best wishes,
Jack

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:26:14 +0000

> 4) "I didn't [see the play]. I know I said I did, but that was..." (p. 
[...]
> Clone theory: 1) F, 2) T, 3) T, 4) T. More trues than falses this way, but 
> why not keep it simple and take the actions of his clone for his own?
>

The Clone Theory is T for #1 if one presumes his clone saw it instead.
I don't actually think it counts for much anyway since it doesn't occur in 
the Rusterman conversation, and a lie that a character admits is a lie later 
is of a different type. An the Clone Theory doesn't generate previously 
unimagined conundrums.

J.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:19:49 +0000

James Wynn quoted and wrote:
> didn't.

Buckshot. The loden dress is in the text, like it or not. In the Rusterman
conversation, Wolfe went out of his way to give the reader pause to wonder
why and how there could be any confusion over the seemingly minor issue of
when Reis first saw Cassie. Do you really think that Wolfe gave an inventory
of Cassie's closet that inclued an obscured mention of a green dress,
clearly identifiable as the dress she wore on the mountain, for no good
reason?

> Reis never said AFAIK that he saw Cassie in the dress *before* the
> play.

Of course not.

> He said he saw Cassie wearing the dress at the party. Quote: "I was
> thinking of the party. I took you home, remember?"

He saw her wearing *a* dress at the party, and it may well have been a green
one--redheads are known for wearing green. But no woman is going to wear the
same dress she wore the night before to a party, particularly when that
dress was worn while hiking up a mountain and it reeks of incense and wood
smoke. Cassie didn't like the smell of Gid's ritual concoction, and even
said she wouldn't want to wear that smell. (42)

> Maybe he lied. But then
> Maybe he's lying about loving her?

And we get to pick what is a lie and what is true according to how well it
fits a particular theory?

> Maybe Gid had him take her home from the
> mountain.

Doubtful, othrwise the pictures with the notes on them would not have been
in her purse when she woke up.

> instead that generates out of thin air

Not out of thin air.

> an entire novel's worth of mysteries.

Huh. I can't help it if the loden dress doesn't help the clone theory. But
it's there.

> But it *is* an alternate theory.

It isn't a global theory. The loden dress just serves to explain how Reis
could have been telling the truth about when he first saw Cassie.

[snip]
> The answer isn't going to come as a smoking gun.

With that I will agree.

-Roy

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:29:39 +0000

> clumsily, perhaps because he was flustered.

The only point you have marked true for both these scenarios is that Cassie
was wearing a green dress when Reis first saw her.

> by omission. "I had hoped that you would love it..." (and get radiation

One of the problems with this clone theory is that there should be some sort
of coordination among clones in order to avoid tripping each other up and
exposing themselves. That in turn necessitates one individual as the prime
individual who benefits from the coordinated actions of the others.
Otherwise, each individual will have his own agenda, which will lead to
conflicts. Reis was a megalomaniac. As such, he could never tolerate rivals
of equal knowledge, powers and resources. Part of his stated ego trip was
that he and he alone would possess the most desirable woman in the world. If
only one guy gets the girl . . . things are bound to get ugly.

-Roy

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 00:41:29 +0000

> individual who benefits from the coordinated actions of the others.

I thought that was the whole point of the clone theory. The clone theory 
allows murderer Reis to give Cassie a deadly bracelet, and island king 
Rosenquist to fall in love with Cassie and take it back and give her a 
diamond one instead. They would need each other, but they have their own 
desires out of life. Reis would want to rule "his island in a sea of black" 
liberated from the Squid God, but Rosenquist would want to rule his island 
in a sea of blue liberated from the Squid God. You pointed out how 
suspicious it is that we never meet Rian. But maybe we did. Maybe he doesn't 
look like he's 16 years old. Maybe he looks just like the guy who is 
bank-rolling Cassie's play.

> of equal knowledge, powers and resources.

Not necessarily so. He might see it as necessary to accomplish his purposes. 
His obsessive self-cloning could be the primary presentation of his 
meglomania, and "a touch of meglomania" might be the signiture emotion of 
the clones.

>Part of his stated ego trip was
>that he and he alone would possess the most desirable woman
>in the world.

It depends on which clone we are talking about. The benefit of a clone story 
is that one can use it to examine the nature of the soul and identity (as in 
the movie "Dark City") which seems to be Wolfe's favorite theme: Take a man 
and slightly alter his memory and/or personal history. Will he turn out the 
same?

>If only one guy gets the girl . . . things are bound to get ugly.

Or if one wants the girl win the most desirable woman and another sees her 
as a terrible threat. IF the clone theory is correct, then Cassie seems to 
suspect on a subconcious level that one of them doesn't want to win her-- he 
wants to kill her. (pg 181)

J.

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:46:28 +0000

On Dec 21, 2008, at 6:41 PM, James Wynn wrote:

> It depends on which clone we are talking about. The benefit of a  
> clone story is that one can use it to examine the nature of the soul  
> and identity (as in the movie "Dark City") which seems to be Wolfe's  
> favorite theme: Take a man and slightly alter his memory and/or  
> personal history. Will he turn out the same?

What can change the nature of a man?

Oops.  I got my Planescape: Torment in your Gene Wolfe.

Adam
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 4988 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20081221/6c40eab0/attachment.bin>

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:36:08 +0000

James Wynn quoted and wrote:
> diamond one instead.

Which one killed a thousand or so people to take control of the islands?
Which one benefited?

> They would need each other, but they have their own
> in a sea of blue liberated from the Squid God.

But it is the same guy, the one at Rusterman's, who expressed the desire to
have both on the same page. "When I was younger, I wanted to own an island.
An island with beaches and palm trees where I would reign as king." [. . .]
"I have that island now, but I've seen a better one. A blue isle in a sea of
black." (125)

[snip]
> It depends on which clone we are talking about.

The guy at Ruterman's said it. (125) So did the guy who gave her the
diamonds, in almost the same words. (145)

[snip]
> wants to kill her. (pg 181)

At that point she was laboring under the false assumption that she had been
the shooter's intended target. (Wolfe characters are forever jumping to
wrong conclusions.) She later learned from Scott that Norma had been the
intended target. (188)

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:16:35 +0000

Roy C. Lackey wrote:
> >/ Clone theory: 1) F, 2) T, 3) T, 4) T. More trues than falses this way,
> />/ but why not keep it simple and take the actions of his clone for his own?
> />/
> />/ Loden dress theory: 1) T, 2) T, 3) F, 4) F. In this one, he had been
> />/ caught in an admission he didn't want to make (#2). He covered for it
> />/ clumsily, perhaps because he was flustered.
> /
Let's try the other, then.
Mistaken Reis: 1) T, 2) F, 3) T, 4) F. He simply forgot about the brown 
dress, or omitted it because it didn't fit his "green goddess" 
compliment. This leaves lie #4 without any good reason, when he could 
have admitted his mistake instead.

> only one guy gets the girl . . . things are bound to get ugly.
That's not a problem with time-traveling copies. Since it's the same 
person there's no conflict of interest, and the memories of the older 
one can keep the coordination on track.

Another hint in favor of the duplicate theory is Sharon's question on p. 
237. "Is Rosenquist tied in with him [William S. Reis]?" It seems pretty 
clueless to be asking this so late in the game, unless there is 
something more Sharon knows. Cassie brushes her off. What if Sharon was 
going to tell her that she had evidence they were not the same person?

By the way: Rian could be a clone, but he can't have been aged to look 
like Bill. What prep school would allow a fat, middle-aged-looking man 
to be a starting quarterback (p. 277)? Bill couldn't be lying about this 
because he expects Cassie to meet Rian at the wedding (p. 276). It would 
risk their relationship to tell an outrageous lie that would soon be 
exposed.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:23:48 +0000

> going to tell her that she had evidence they were not the same person?

I don't know if this is related, or what theory it helps or hurts, but the
morning after Cassie received the gold bracelet she talked to Gid and
mentioned that Wally Rosenquist had given it to her. (75) Gid reacted as if
surprised to hear that name. I don't know how to take that. Given the
ubiquity of computers, data bases and search engines in the story, to say
nothing of the FBI files he had access to, I find it hard to believe that
Gid could be unfamiliar with that name if it had been an established Reis
alias. Yet Zelda talked in veiled terms as if Rosenquist, "under a dozen
names", was well established in financial circles. (90) And India had no
doubts that "Wally" was filthy rich. (105) So why did Gid react that way?

> risk their relationship to tell an outrageous lie that would soon be

I agree.

-Roy

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 00:11:17 +0000

>Roy said, then James, then Roy
>>>One of the problems with this clone theory is that there should be some
>>>sort of coordination among clones in order to avoid tripping each other
>>>up
>>>and exposing themselves. That in turn necessitates one individual as the
>>>prime individual who benefits from the coordinated actions of the others.

>Which one killed a thousand or so people to take control of the islands?

To take control of them from whom? The Squid God? One man's wild-eyed
revolutionary is another's liberator. The lesser king who described the 
events to Cassie seemed to see W.R. as a liberator.

>But it is the same guy, the one at Rusterman's, who expressed the desire
>to have both on the same page. "When I was younger, I wanted to own
>an  island. An island with beaches and palm trees where I would reign as
>king." [...]
> "I have that island now, but I've seen a better one. A blue isle in a sea
> of black." (125)

Well, that is why I said originally that the clone has *a chance* of
resolving open questions. If I were going to construct a "THREE Heads of
Cerberus" model for AEG, I would start by positing that the guy Cassie is
talking to in Rusterman's is Reis. I'd build off that and see if the system
eventually falls apart impossibly.

>Roy then James then Roy

>The guy at Rusterman's said it. (125)
>So did the guy who gave her the

So the guy who gave her the diamonds and the guy she met at Rusterman's do
not need to be the same. That fits if Ries is the one who gave her the
bracelet (which does not need to be the guy she met in the car afterwards).

>Roy then James then Roy
>>Or if one wants the girl win the most desirable woman and another sees
>>her as a terrible threat. IF the clone theory is correct, then Cassie
>>seems to suspect on a subconcious level that one of them doesn't
>>want to win her--he wants to kill her. (pg 181)

>wrong conclusions.) She later learned from Scott that Norma had been the

...And the false conclusion almost as often turns out to have been true in
an unexpected sense. Scott says that the ATF shot Norma and that she was the
target. I'm not certain yet how much to believe about that. Remember that it
was the US Navy, not W.R., who attacked the Squid God. And yet, it isn't
entirely accurate to say that W.R. was not behind it.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 00:14:37 +0000

Roy said.
>>One of the problems with this clone theory is that there should be
>>some sort of coordination among clones in order to avoid tripping
>>each other up and exposing themselves. That in turn necessitates
>>one individual as the prime individual who benefits from the
>>coordinated actions of the others. Otherwise, each individual will
>>have his own agenda, which will lead to conflicts. Reis was a
>>megalomaniac. As such, he could never tolerate rivals of equal
>>knowledge, powers and resources. Part of his stated ego trip was
>>that he and he alone would possess the most desirable woman in
>>the world. If only one guy gets the girl . . . things are bound to get 
>>ugly.

Dave Tallman replied:
>That's not a problem with time-traveling copies. Since it's the same person
>there's no conflict of interest, and the memories of the older one can keep
>the coordination on track.

That's true, and time-disjunction is addressed in the story. But then it is
only addressed in the sense of ethermail, so one has to clear some brambles
in order to qualify that theory.

Dave Tallman said:
>By the way: Rian could be a clone, but he can't have been aged to look like
>Bill. What prep school would allow a fat, middle-aged-looking man to be a
>starting quarterback (p. 277)? Bill couldn't be lying about this because he
>expects Cassie to meet Rian at the wedding (p. 276). It would risk their
>relationship to tell an outrageous lie that would soon be exposed.

Good point. I forgot about that last night.

J

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 06:29:42 +0000

> events to Cassie seemed to see W.R. as a liberator.

Yeah, but only while things were good. When push came to shove, Kanoa turned
on him and got him killed. Btw, it was Kanoa who gave another "W.R." name
for him, Wiliama 'Aukailani. Between his native and British accents, it's
hard to tell if the apostrophe represents only one or more than one missing
letter, but the second name will surely start with "R". Anyway, Kanoa calls
him "Bill in private. No side, eh? William, the sailor of Heaven." (248)
That suggests that the island "liberator" is the same guy who gave Cassie
the deadly bracelet, William "Bill" Reis.

-Roy

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:44:58 +0000

Has anyone brought up Arthur-Guinevere-Merlin rather than Lancelot?
Reis is the High King after all, and GC is definitely a wizard.

Cheers, David Duffy.

-- 
| David Duffy (MBBS PhD)                                         ,-_|\
| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au  ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101  /     *
| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research   \_,-._/
| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia  GPG 4D0B994A v

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 12:02:42 +0000

> Reis is the High King after all, and GC is definitely a wizard.
Merlin's love interest was usually Viviane (aka Nimue), the Lady of the 
Lake, not Guinevere. Wolfe followed this line in "The Magic Animal." 
Viviane and Morgan le Fey are combined in Castleview, and the Merlin 
there seemed to be the old King Geimreadh (he lived with Viviane, he 
appeared old while she appeared young, and he was key to an act of magic 
in the end).

The Castleview character I saw as closest to Lancelot was Rex Madadh. He 
was a fey, a werewolf, but he ended up with the Guinevere of that story 
(Sally). Lancelot had a fey connection too, since he was taken from his 
human family as a child and raised by the Lady of the Lake in her 
magical realm. That's a good fit for Gideon Chase as well.

Chase was young, strong, and handsome. These are more traits of Lancelot 
than Merlin. Lancelot was known to perform healings, as Chase healed 
Rian. Lancelot gained favor in King Arthur's court by persuading an 
enemy (Galehaut) to surrender rather than fight. I connect this to the 
oil-field deal that Chase did (p. 26) (presumably for Reis, since Sharon 
Bench knew his family and was unlikely to have an independent inside 
source). Chase worked for Reis in the end, and made a major contribution 
to his downfall through Cassie. This was also like Lancelot.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:42:06 +0000

> in order to qualify that theory.
Here is some additional evidence: there is a huge palace on Takanga 
Ha'i, "terrace after terrace... accented with palms" (247). How long 
would it take to build such a place with native labor? How long to sell 
enough gold to afford it, making only small quantities at a time? 
Fast-growing palm trees take ten years to reach a height of 25 feet. I 
suggest this palace is the work of a decade or more, longer than the 
president who appointed Reis' replacement has been in office.

Suppose by Woldercan time-warping Reis returned "early," while his 
counterpart was still in Woldercan. This would give him time to get his 
island kingdom and financial empire set up under aliases. At the 
scheduled time he could jump in a hopper and "return" from space as 
Ambassador Reis.

Sharon may have attempted to trace all this and gotten puzzled. Hence 
her apparently silly question to Cassie about the Reis/Rosenquist 
connection (237).

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 00:30:38 +0000

Roy C. Lackey wrote:
> on him and got him killed.
I tend to see Kanoa as a spy for Cthulhu from the beginning. His phony, 
exaggerated British speech is meant to make people underestimate him 
(like Captain Bram Bert).

What things can we deduce about King Kanoa?
1) Cast spells against seasickness (239).
2) Hated his father, and was not sorry when he died (239).
3) Said he couldn't tell anything about the Storm King  (239).
4) Grandfather was a wizard who caught the soul of Hanga (240).
5) His father placated Hanga with human sacrifices. "Bit peckish at 
times, but aren't we all." (241).
6) Tracked comings and goings of Reis carefully. "At times I wonder when 
he sleeps" (243).
7) Only lesser king with his own apartment in the palace (243). This 
access would help him conspire with the assassin.
8) Fought with and beat up on other men in his village (244).
9) Knew the Storm King feared depth charges (246).
10) Bribed by Reis (248).
11) His play counterpart is Tiny Penniman (249), who also played someone 
in "The Red Spot" who enlisted an assassin to kill Cassie's character (61).
12) A devout worshipper of the Storm King (283).
13) Used Cassie as a "puppet ruler" to kill Bill, just as the assassin 
wanted (284),
14) Advised her to marry someone familiar with the local situation. He 
meant himself (284).
15) Cassie says killing Kanoa was self-defense. "If I told you what he 
wanted me to do you'd think I was crazy, and he'd have killed me if I 
didn't do it" (299). Was it marriage she meant, or becoming a slave of 
the Storm King (as the assassin wanted her, instructed and tested 251)? 
Probably the latter, since Klauser wouldn't think the former was that crazy.