{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5281", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5281, "subject": "AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "messages": 20, "voices": 8, "first": "2008-12-17T08:22:50+00:00", "last": "2009-01-02T14:06:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<006501c96020$ab7ebe80$57d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-17T08:22:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both Gideon and Klauser mentioned that Wolder males could hybridize with\nlower animals. Klauser also said that they sometimes try to seduce human\nwomen. Both of these points should have a bearing on the story, otherwise\nthey are idle curiosities.\n\nWoldercan is supposed to be more advanced than Earth in biology, but exactly\nhow is not specified. Gid healed a boy's bad heart, when the best medical\ncare that could be bought on Earth couldn't do it. He has other exotic\ntalents as well.\n\nGid is the only character in the story known to have been born on Woldercan.\nHis father is barely mentioned and his mother not at all. Gid doesn't look\nanything like Bob Chase. (16) Both the president and Klauser thought his\neyes were freakish. I propose that Gid is a hybrid, and his mother was the\nhuman half.\n\nEarth antibiotics did not keep his leg from getting infected, and I think he\navoided medical doctors because he knew they would have discovered that he\nwasn't entirely human.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-12-23T07:37:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "<006501c96020$ab7ebe80$57d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 17 Dec 2008, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nWoldercan is supposed to be more advanced than Earth in biology, but exactly\nhow is not specified. Gid healed a boy's bad heart, when the best medical\ncare that could be bought on Earth couldn't do it. He has other exotic\ntalents as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Catching up with the list now I have read AEG. His \"bad heart\" is pretty \nobviously not physical. I thought it likely that he was a changeling, viz \nthe description of incipient followers of Mr Squid. And I presume his \nmother (who is wealthy) might well own \"a thousand million\" and a yacht. \nShe must have been the Ambassadress that lived with BR on Woldercan. And \nShirley Bench knew an awful lot about her and Rian, including the fact \nthat he was too brave.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4950E4CB.6020801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-23T13:16:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Catching up with the list now I have read AEG. His \"bad heart\" is pretty \nobviously not physical. I thought it likely that he was a changeling, viz \nthe description of incipient followers of Mr Squid. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The idea that it was a spiritual malady is interesting. Reis said \"A \ndefective heart valve is what they said, although I think it was really \nsomething else\" (p. 277). Whatever it was, it caused physical weakness, \nsince Reis talked about Rian's ability to play football after the \nhealing. The connection to Squiddie is a bit of a stretch, though. Our \nbest guide to Squid-God transformations are the assassin and the zombie \nPat Gomez. Rian's case doesn't seem anything like those." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I presume his \nmother (who is wealthy) might well own \"a thousand million\" and a yacht. \nShe must have been the Ambassadress that lived with BR on Woldercan. And \nShirley Bench knew an awful lot about her and Rian, including the fact \nthat he was too brave.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "According to the timelines that Roy Lackey and I worked out, the mother \nis more likely Bill's first wife and the one who went to Woldercan with \nhim is the second. The photo from Klauser said \"... all the kindness and \nhospitality he and his family have shown to my wife and me\" (p. 301). \nTen or so years back, Rian would be six or less. If he were with them, \nit would be more natural to say \"...he and his family have shown to me \nand my family.\"\n\nSharon's knowledge of Reis' ex-wife and Rian suggests to me that they \nare local to Springfield. Her warning not to \"brace them with it\" (p. \n25) tells me it's someone Cassie also knows. I think Norma is a good \ncandidate for Rian's mother. Rian's mother named him (p. 277), and Rian \nand Norma are both Gaelic names. Norma says she \"used to be married to \nthe volcano god\" but leaves it open whether she means Vince Palma or \nBill Reis. I think it's the latter." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812230545g716906cbp65f221eb33a725a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-23T13:45:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "<4950E4CB.6020801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 8:16 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nCatching up with the list now I have read AEG. His \"bad heart\" is pretty\nobviously not physical. I thought it likely that he was a changeling, viz\nthe description of incipient followers of Mr Squid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The idea that it was a spiritual malady is interesting. Reis said \"A\ndefective heart valve is what they said, although I think it was really\nsomething else\" (p. 277). Whatever it was, it caused physical weakness,\nsince Reis talked about Rian's ability to play football after the healing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An echo of Golden City Far?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495122D9.9070104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-23T17:41:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812230545g716906cbp65f221eb33a725a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nAn echo of Golden City Far?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to mention Sir Able of the High Heart, healed and performance-enhanced with fey intervention." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8CB33558CF16366-11D0-5EE@mblk-d17.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "stoneox17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2008-12-23T20:38:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "<4950E4CB.6020801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman says" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sharon's knowledge of Reis' ex-wife and Rian suggests to me that they\nare local to Springfield. Her warning not to \"brace them with it\" (p.\n25) tells me it's someone Cassie also knows. I think Norma is a good\ncandidate for Rian's mother. Rian's mother named him (p. 277), and \nRian\nand Norma are both Gaelic names. Norma says she \"used to be married \nto\nthe volcano god\" but leaves it open whether she means Vince Palma or\nBill Reis. I think it's the latter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just one comment: Springfield is the city where the first production of\n\"Dating the Volcano God\" was held; it's around 100 miles (I'd have to\ncheck my copy for the exact distance, if it's given) from the unnamed \ncity\nwhere Cassie and Sharon live, and where Gideon Chase is a Professor.\nSince he teaches at Miskatonic University, this city is very probably\nArkham, Mass, although I believe there was some comment somewhere\nin the book that implies that it's closer to Providence than the actual\nfictional Arkham, Mass (which Wikipedia informs me is in Essex County,\nMassachusetts).\n\nSince Lovecraft lived in Providence (in actual life), this all fits \ntogether.\nSorry, I don't have my copy here so I can't dig up these references.\n\nPeter" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001701c96547$c6ea5860$77d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-23T21:45:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "<4950E4CB.6020801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted David Duffy and wrote:\nCatching up with the list now I have read AEG. His \"bad heart\" is\npretty\nobviously not physical. I thought it likely that he was a changeling,\nviz\nthe description of incipient followers of Mr Squid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The idea that it was a spiritual malady is interesting. Reis said \"A\ndefective heart valve is what they said, although I think it was really\nsomething else\" (p. 277). Whatever it was, it caused physical weakness,\nsince Reis talked about Rian's ability to play football after the\nhealing. The connection to Squiddie is a bit of a stretch, though. Our\nbest guide to Squid-God transformations are the assassin and the zombie\nPat Gomez. Rian's case doesn't seem anything like those." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Dave T. on both counts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I presume his\nmother (who is wealthy) might well own \"a thousand million\" and a yacht.\nShe must have been the Ambassadress that lived with BR on Woldercan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Shirley Bench knew an awful lot about her and Rian, including the fact\nthat he was too brave." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "According to the timelines that Roy Lackey and I worked out, the mother\nis more likely Bill's first wife and the one who went to Woldercan with\nhim is the second. The photo from Klauser said \"... all the kindness and\nhospitality he and his family have shown to my wife and me\" (p. 301).\nTen or so years back, Rian would be six or less. If he were with them,\nit would be more natural to say \"...he and his family have shown to me\nand my family.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Naturally I agree with Dave T. that Rian's mother was Bill's first wife. But\nI think David D. is right about the rich yacht owner being Rian's mother. It\nmakes perfect sense that Bill's first wife was rich, and she has to be\nsomeone of importance or she wouldn't be listed in the cast of characters.\nShe was a former beauty, which fits Reis' known predilection for the type.\nAnd wealthy men are often known to dump trophy wives when they start to lose\ntheir shine. She showed broken Cassie her motherly instinct, which is in\nconsonance with a mother who had cared for a sickly child.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002b01c96549$6cdfe400$77d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-12-23T21:57:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "<8CB33558CF16366-11D0-5EE@mblk-d17.sysops.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Peter quoted and wrote:\nDave Tallman says" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sharon's knowledge of Reis' ex-wife and Rian suggests to me that they\nare local to Springfield. Her warning not to \"brace them with it\" (p.\n25) tells me it's someone Cassie also knows. I think Norma is a good\ncandidate for Rian's mother. Rian's mother named him (p. 277), and\nRian\nand Norma are both Gaelic names. Norma says she \"used to be married\nto\nthe volcano god\" but leaves it open whether she means Vince Palma or\nBill Reis. I think it's the latter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just one comment: Springfield is the city where the first production of\n\"Dating the Volcano God\" was held; it's around 100 miles (I'd have to\ncheck my copy for the exact distance, if it's given) from the unnamed\ncity\nwhere Cassie and Sharon live, and where Gideon Chase is a Professor.\nSince he teaches at Miskatonic University, this city is very probably\nArkham, Mass, although I believe there was some comment somewhere\nin the book that implies that it's closer to Providence than the actual\nfictional Arkham, Mass (which Wikipedia informs me is in Essex County,\nMassachusetts).\n\nSince Lovecraft lived in Providence (in actual life), this all fits\ntogether.\nSorry, I don't have my copy here so I can't dig up these references." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave meant Kingsport, not Springfield. The name of the city is mentioned\nseveral times in the text, including the \"Cast\" list at the end.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-12-23T22:58:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Timeline and the Shadow", "in_reply_to": "<4950E4CB.6020801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 23 Dec 2008, Dave Tallman wrote:\nAccording to the timelines that Roy Lackey and I worked out..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "WRT the timeline, I can't remember if you included\n\n\"A hundred and fifty-odd years ago there was a man called Cranston...\" \nputs the present day at\n\"The Shadow debuted on July 31, 1930\" [Wikipedia] + 150 = 2080\n\nKnowing nothing about the Shadow, that article through up a lot of \nfeatures to look for, most of which others have already noted. \nBut, apropos clones\n\n\"One of these identities was Lamont Cranston, a 'wealthy young man about \ntown.' In the pulps, Cranston was a separate character; Allard frequently \ndisguised himself as Cranston and adopted his identity. While Cranston \ntraveled the world, Allard assumed his identity in New York. Apparently, \nthe disguise worked well because Allard and Cranston bore something of a \nresemblance to each other.\n\n\"His other disguises included businessman Henry Arnaud, elderly gentleman \nIsaac Twambley, and Fritz, a doddering old janitor who works at Police \nHeadquarters in order to listen in on conversations.\"\n\nHe had 'the mysterious power to cloud men's minds, so they could not see \nhim', a master of hypnotism, dresses in dark clothes, is violent against \ncriminals, but is fighting for good.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<495170A4.1060508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-23T23:13:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "<001701c96547$c6ea5860$77d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nNaturally I agree with Dave T. that Rian's mother was Bill's first wife. But\nI think David D. is right about the rich yacht owner being Rian's mother. It\nmakes perfect sense that Bill's first wife was rich, and she has to be\nsomeone of importance or she wouldn't be listed in the cast of characters.\nShe was a former beauty, which fits Reis' known predilection for the type.\nAnd wealthy men are often known to dump trophy wives when they start to lose\ntheir shine. She showed broken Cassie her motherly instinct, which is in\nconsonance with a mother who had cared for a sickly child.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You may have something here. The \"comforted her like a mother\" is very \ntelling. It bothers me that Pavlatos seems like a Greek name and Rian is \nIrish/Gaelic, but the \"Madame\" suggests a remarriage, like Jackie \nKennedy to Aristotle Onassis (note the yacht connection).\n\nI'm not completely giving up on Norma, however. If she's not the first \nwife she may be the second. Sharon had to learn of Rian from someone, \nand Reis would have told his second wife about him, just as he told Cassie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave meant Kingsport, not Springfield. The name of the city is mentioned\nseveral times in the text, including the \"Cast\" list at the end.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did indeed mean Kingsport, thanks." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-12-23T23:19:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil pun", "in_reply_to": "<4950E4CB.6020801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or is that a subliminal message?\n\nCassie: Oh Lord! Yes, I remember.\nAssassin: Well, you should Cassie dear, since he died for you..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081224180313.4939E8039@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-12-24T18:03:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:37 23/12/2008, David wrote:\nAnd I presume his mother (who is wealthy) might well own \"a thousand \nmillion\" and a yacht." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must have missed something here. Why do we postulate any connection \nbetween Mme Pavlatos and Reis's first wife? Other than general \nsuspicion of Wolfean reluctance to create new characters when he can \nsubtly re-use others referred to earlier, what is there to link them?\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812241047v54539820nf7f4289e61d32b45@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-24T18:47:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "<20081224180313.4939E8039@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mo Holkar wrote:\n\nI must have missed something here. Why do we postulate any connection\nbetween Mme Pavlatos and Reis's first wife? Other than general\nsuspicion of Wolfean reluctance to create new characters when he can\nsubtly re-use others referred to earlier, what is there to link them?\n\n By the same logic, Dorcas was just a random woman Severian happened to pull\nout of a lake. We know Wolfe loves to do puzzles like this. The clues match\nup well:\n1) Rich -- Rian's mother had to be rich to afford to consult Chase.\n2) Beautiful - Reis liked to marry beauties.\n3) Motherly.\n4) The Jackie Kennedy Onassis parallel, which hints at an Irish background\n(for Rian's name).\n5) In the credits even though she has only a small paragraph in the\nnarrative.\n6) Present in the vicinity of the islands soon after Reis' death. A mere\npleasure-cruise in an area that had a recent hurricane? Or maybe inheritance\nissues concerning Rian?\n\nWolfe goes out of his way to say that Reis was married twice, which invites\nus to find his other wife, too. Who in the credits makes the best candidate?\n1) India -- gay.\n2) Ebony -- likewise (\"How is life in India?\").\n3) Margaret -- not glamorous enough.\n4) Alexis -- not much money from the divorce, if she wound up as a waitress.\n5) Sharon -- has too little info about Reis.\n6) Norma -- the only one who admits to a prior marriage with a strong Reis\nconnection (\"I used to be married to the volcano god\").\n7) Tabbi -- Took over the role of Reverend Brown's wife from Norma, so she's\na possible.\n8) Zelda -- her story of starting her own agency doesn't fit" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49563AEB.1080309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-27T14:25:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812241047v54539820nf7f4289e61d32b45@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the post\"Red Spot\" party, Wolfe includes some interactions between \nNorma and Vince. I'd like to look at them for clues to see if they were \never married. That may help clarify whether she means Vince or Reis when \nshe says \"I used to be married to the volcano god.\"\n\nVince mentions \"the Gray Neighbors\" and Norma says \"I'll be damned if I \nhave the foggiest idea what that's supposed to mean\" (p. 64). If they \nwere married for two years, it's surprising that Norma never heard Vince \nspeak of this before.\n\n\"You've made westerns. I know you have,\" Norma says to Vince on p. 65. \nThe repetition \"I know you have\" weakens the assertion, as if she thinks \nhe would doubt her knowledge. This is more evidence against the marriage.\n\nIncidentally, the fact that Vince has made westerns indicates he isn't \njust Reis under a glamour. Westerns are typically movies or TV shows, \nnot plays, and glamours can't fool cameras. Vince may be a \"big name\" \nactor who has come down in the world. (He was also used for voice-overs \nin \"Memorare.\" The cult-trap seems to be one big glamour field itself, \nincluding the camera defect. Could there be a connection to Gideon Chase \nor his father?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA224923C53E8@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2008-12-28T15:52:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random Semi-Literary Thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "<49563AEB.1080309@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Finished AEG this morning with that frustrating \"interrupted\" feeling I always get on a first read of a Wolfe Novel that I'd only been told half the story. I've been trolling the list and finding many helpful clues; these thoughts are just off-the-cuff throwaway attempts to resolve my own sense of reaching for resolution and not finding it.\n \n1) In \"The Tree is My Hat,\" Hanga is evil; in AEG, he appears at least friendly, and in Cassie's dream, he's protecting her from Squiddie god. But then he eats the tourist from Perth. Is some reconciliation needed concerning his character between these two works?\n \n2) I vaguely remember from \"Tree\" that there's some part of the island where the main character (Baden [?]) can sense the presence of dead people - might that explain Cassie's smelling Reis' cologne, etc. Perhaps someone with a better knowledge of \"Tree\" can comment.\n \n3) I can't get Gideon's statement that it is much harder to go up than down out of my head - it deepens and complicates the novel. Without it, one might assume Gideon stays immoral throughout the novel; his characterization is flat-out creepy in the first chapter, and he says things about good/evil which I'm sure Wolfe passionately disagrees with. Reis, for all his similarities to Gideon, seems morally opposite: before he dies, he tells Cassie he really tried to do as much good as he could, something Gideon could never really say (Gideon also keeps working for three or four groups, playing them off each other for his own advantage).\n \nAnyway, Gideon is saying that it's much harder to go up in the context of biology on Woldercan, but then he talks about loving Cassie: the meaning seems to shift to Gideon's moral improvement/raising, and that Cassie's doing that. We get evidence that he's not flat-out evil later on in the book. But I wonder if his absence toward the end of the novel is meant as a kind of imprisonment within his own intellectual world: having denied any greater good beyond convenience or perspective, he simultaneously can tell Cassie he loves her but doesn't get the kind of connection with her which Reis does; their romance is much less fully realized. Perhaps that's how we're supposed to think of Gideon: a sly spy who can get what he wants, but is denied the intimacy which the good Reis does.\n \n4) I was struck by how the novel comes full circle by the end; Gideon is the evil guest at the beginning, but by the end, we know of a far more evil guest (Squiddie) who, so far as we know, is still there. And by the end, Gideon is an (evil?) ambassador/guest on Woldercan, a planet which is obviously dangerous too. I was also struck by how Cassie, leaving to meet him, longs for Reis; she doesn't think, Well, at least I'm getting back to sexy Gideon. I think the novel is supposed to leave us somewhere in the middle: gains have been made, the cosmos has been (partially) restored, but it is still deeply flawed. The storm wiped out many of Squiddie's worshippers, but Squiddie is apparently still there. Woldercan is dangerous, and Earth's ambassador ambiguous; but Cassie is going. Instead of Earth being invaded by guests, now Earth is sending her own. I guess I find myself a bit more resolved about things by the end of the novel.\n \n5) What's up with Cassie screaming about the devil's son being born during the storm?\n \n6) Totally agree that the novel is placing a Lovecraftian cosmology within a larger Christian framework, just as Wizard-Knight does with Norse mythology, etc.\n \n7) Someone posted earlier about similarities between AEG and BOTNS; I think similarities like that span across all of Wolfe's works. A character dying in the sea and yet continuing to exist (Sev., Able, the detective from Oakland), sea monsters who are aliens, etc. Also, every major Wolfe character seems to hit bottom and flat out despair at some point; Cassie seems to on the island, and Silk, Horn, Able, and Latro all do. Perhaps recurrences within Wolfe's own consciousness.\n \nFWIW.\n \n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College and Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer. \n-------------------------\nThis e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message." } ] }, { "message_id": "<495822BD.5010907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-29T01:07:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random Semi-Literary Thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA224923C53E8@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eric Ortlund wrote:\n1) In \"The Tree is My Hat,\" Hanga is evil; in AEG, he appears at least friendly, and in Cassie's dream, he's protecting her from Squiddie god. But then he eats the tourist from Perth. Is some reconciliation needed concerning his character between these two works?\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Hanga is amoral and hungry, like a shark. He pledged friendship \nto Baden, but couldn't be made to understand that he shouldn't eat \nBaden's family. As King Kanoa says, he's just a \"bit peckish at times.\"\n\nFlorence McNair thought Cassie was crazy, and in Hanga's mind seemed to \nbe annoying her. When Cassie overhears \"She keeps talking and talking,\" \nHanga asks Cassie \"Would you wish the hotel guests gone, Cassie Casey? \nAll save you?\" (p. 230). In other words. \"Are these people bothering \nyou?\" Hanga must have concluded that McNair was, and so he took care of \nher for Cassie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) I can't get Gideon's statement that it is much harder to go up than down out of my head - it deepens and complicates the novel. Without it, one might assume Gideon stays immoral throughout the novel; his characterization is flat-out creepy in the first chapter, and he says things about good/evil which I'm sure Wolfe passionately disagrees with. Reis, for all his similarities to Gideon, seems morally opposite: before he dies, he tells Cassie he really tried to do as much good as he could, something Gideon could never really say (Gideon also keeps working for three or four groups, playing them off each other for his own advantage).\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the context of p. 100, Gideon's statement about it being easy for \nsomeone who has been transformed up to slip back down is a warning to \nCasey -- she was transformed up to something like an angel, and she \ncould lose that (she does). It could also refer to Gid, but he says he \nis unable to go either down or up. There is certainly a shift in moral \nperception of the characters; by the end we think much better of Reis \nand somewhat worse of Chase.\n\nAs for the \"immoral\" statement Gid makes, consider Cassie's \ninterpretation on p. 179. \"Gid says there's no good or evil, and it took \nme a long time to understand what he meant by it... Mariah believes in \nGod, but we don't. Add nothing to God and you get good.\" In the absence \nof religious belief, statements about good and evil are often used \nloosely, for mere matters of personal convenience and preference, like \nthe \"bad dog\" example Gid mentions. I'm not so sure Wolfe would reject \nGid's philosophy, as far as it goes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5) What's up with Cassie screaming about the devil's son being born during the storm?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It almost seems like a prophecy -- Cassie is sometimes called Cassandra. \nafter all. There was a child with a \"prophecy\" about his birth -- Gideon \nChase. He is a wizard like Merlin, and Merlin has been called the child \nof the devil. The \"tonight\" part is strange, but remember time is \ndifferent in Woldercan." } ] }, { "message_id": "<907965.80728.qm@web180014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-12-29T10:09:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random Semi-Literary Thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "<495822BD.5010907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Dave Tallman wrote:\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Random Semi-Literary Thoughts on AEG" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the \"immoral\" statement Gid makes,\nconsider Cassie's \ninterpretation on p. 179. \"Gid says there's no\ngood or evil, and it took \nme a long time to understand what he meant by it... Mariah\nbelieves in \nGod, but we don't. Add nothing to God and you get\ngood.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't this last sentence also a play on words? Take the word \"God\" and add 0 (zero = nothing) and you get \"Go0d\" or \"good.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4958D483.4010202@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-29T13:45:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Random Semi-Literary Thoughts on AEG", "in_reply_to": "<907965.80728.qm@web180014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Smith wrote:\nIsn't this last sentence also a play on words? Take the word \"God\" and add 0 (zero = nothing) and you get \"Go0d\" or \"good.\"\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. I thought that was so obvious it went without saying, but I've done \na lot of cryptic crosswords." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090102093940.D577B48043@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-01-02T09:39:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812241047v54539820nf7f4289e61d32b45@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 18:47 24/12/2008, you wrote:\nMo Holkar wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I must have missed something here. Why do we postulate any connection\nbetween Mme Pavlatos and Reis's first wife? Other than general\nsuspicion of Wolfean reluctance to create new characters when he can\n\nsubtly re-use others referred to earlier, what is there to link them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the same logic, Dorcas was just a random woman Severian happened \nto pull out of a lake. We know Wolfe loves to do puzzles like this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only if Dorcas had just wandered off immediately after being pulled \nout, never to be seen in the book again.\n\nWolfe does of course love such puzzles, but normally the results of \nsaid puzzles are meaningful. This one grates for me because if true, \nthere s nothing significant about it for the story or themes -- just \n\"oh.\" Mme Pavlatos is such a minor character in the book that \nrelating her to Reis etc would be meaningless. I think it would be \nbeneath Wolfe to throw away a puzzle on her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The clues match up well:\n1) Rich -- Rian's mother had to be rich to afford to consult Chase.\n2) Beautiful - Reis liked to marry beauties.\n3) Motherly.\n4) The Jackie Kennedy Onassis parallel, which hints at an Irish \nbackground (for Rian's name).\n5) In the credits even though she has only a small paragraph in the narrative.\n6) Present in the vicinity of the islands soon after Reis' death. A \nmere pleasure-cruise in an area that had a recent hurricane? Or \nmaybe inheritance issues concerning Rian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm, I think these are mostly pretty vague or else disputable (was \nJackie Onassis really notably Irish?) apart from the last one, which \nneeds too much guesswork to be conclusive. I'm not dismissing them, \njust feeling that by Wolfe's standards there should be a clearer \npointer than these, if the theory is true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe goes out of his way to say that Reis was married twice, which \ninvites us to find his other wife, too. Who in the credits makes the \nbest candidate?\n1) India -- gay.\n2) Ebony -- likewise (\"How is life in India?\").\n3) Margaret -- not glamorous enough.\n4) Alexis -- not much money from the divorce, if she wound up as a waitress.\n5) Sharon -- has too little info about Reis.\n6) Norma -- the only one who admits to a prior marriage with a \nstrong Reis connection (\"I used to be married to the volcano god\").\n7) Tabbi -- Took over the role of Reverend Brown's wife from Norma, \nso she's a possible.\n8) Zelda -- her story of starting her own agency doesn't fit" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the successful candidate (if there is one) will be someone \nfor whom the uncovered fact of the marriage sheds an interesting and \nsignificant light on her relationship with Cassie and the rest of the \nstory. So Norma would be my favourite.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<495E1F4E.9030004@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-02T14:06:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth", "in_reply_to": "<20090102093940.D577B48043@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar wrote:\nHmm, I think these are mostly pretty vague or else disputable (was\nJackie Onassis really notably Irish?) apart from the last one, which\nneeds too much guesswork to be conclusive. I'm not dismissing them,\njust feeling that by Wolfe's standards there should be a clearer\npointer than these, if the theory is true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jacqueline Lee Bouvier was her maiden name, and despite the French sound \nof that she was primarily of Irish, Scottish, and English ancestry. \nKennedy is a well-known Irish name. The crew of the ship that rescued \nCassie spoke a language that she was sure was not French (perhaps it was \na language of the same family, like Greek). The captain was American (p. \n287), which suggests that is the nationality of Madame Pavlatos as well.\n\nThe location clue is tricky. The island where Cassie ended up was \noutside the Takanga group (p. 268). Reis chose it to avoid being spied \non by his enemies; he wouldn't tell even Cassie where it was \nspecifically. It was uninhabited and remote; Cassie saw no other ships \nwhen she lived there for a year. It's not a place that anyone would come \nfor business related to Reis. Other than Ries, the only character who \nknew the location seems to be the Volcano God.\n\nThere was also a volcano on Takanga Ha'i, the king's island (p. 249), \nand it's the only volcano mentioned in the Takanga group. The islanders \nhave a Volcano God (associated with their local volcano, but no doubt \nthe same god as the one on Cassie's island). The islanders say the high \nking was chosen by the gods, or by certain gods (p. 266). The high \nqueen's head was on fire (a reference to Cassie's red hair, but also \nliterally true of the Volcano God as he appears to Cassie). Thus there \nis a strong connection between the Volcano God and Reis (not to mention \nthat he included the god as a major character in the musical he wrote).\n\nCould the Volcano God have communicated to someone to look on that \nisland for a castaway? In \"The Tree is My Hat,\" Hanga is able to fly and \nto follow his blood brother in an airplane a long distance from the \nisland. It seems plausible that the Volcano God could fly and get a \nmessage to someone of Reis' blood, like Rian. He might be able to use \nVince Palma for this, if the possession theory is true.\n\nThe Volcano God asked Cassie to \"leave flowers,\" i.e. he expected her to \nbe leaving there (p. 286). Besides the gift of fire, he might have \nprovided this additional service. In conclusion, the arrival of the ship \nof Madame Pavlatos may be no coincidence at all. Her connection to Reis \nisn't a throw-away, but an essential part of the plot." } ] } ] }