Subject: (urth) AEG: a Wolder on Earth

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:22:50 +0000

Both Gideon and Klauser mentioned that Wolder males could hybridize with
lower animals. Klauser also said that they sometimes try to seduce human
women. Both of these points should have a bearing on the story, otherwise
they are idle curiosities.

Woldercan is supposed to be more advanced than Earth in biology, but exactly
how is not specified. Gid healed a boy's bad heart, when the best medical
care that could be bought on Earth couldn't do it. He has other exotic
talents as well.

Gid is the only character in the story known to have been born on Woldercan.
His father is barely mentioned and his mother not at all. Gid doesn't look
anything like Bob Chase. (16) Both the president and Klauser thought his
eyes were freakish. I propose that Gid is a hybrid, and his mother was the
human half.

Earth antibiotics did not keep his leg from getting infected, and I think he
avoided medical doctors because he knew they would have discovered that he
wasn't entirely human.

-Roy

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:37:20 +0000

> care that could be bought on Earth couldn't do it. He has other exotic

Catching up with the list now I have read AEG.  His "bad heart" is pretty 
obviously not physical.  I thought it likely that he was a changeling, viz 
the description of incipient followers of Mr Squid.  And I presume his 
mother (who is wealthy) might well own "a thousand million" and a yacht. 
She must have been the Ambassadress that lived with BR on Woldercan.  And 
Shirley Bench knew an awful lot about her and Rian, including the fact 
that he was too brave.

Cheers, David Duffy.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:16:59 +0000

> the description of incipient followers of Mr Squid. 
The idea that it was a spiritual malady is interesting. Reis said "A 
defective heart valve is what they said, although I think it was really 
something else" (p. 277). Whatever it was, it caused physical weakness, 
since Reis talked about Rian's ability to play football after the 
healing. The connection to Squiddie is a bit of a stretch, though. Our 
best guide to Squid-God transformations are the assassin and the zombie 
Pat Gomez. Rian's case doesn't seem anything like those.

> And I presume his 
According to the timelines that Roy Lackey and I worked out, the mother 
is more likely Bill's first wife and the one who went to Woldercan with 
him is the second. The photo from Klauser said "... all the kindness and 
hospitality he and his family have shown to my wife and me" (p. 301). 
Ten or so years back, Rian would be six or less. If he were with them, 
it would be more natural to say "...he and his family have shown to me 
and my family."

Sharon's knowledge of Reis' ex-wife and Rian suggests to me that they 
are local to Springfield. Her warning not to "brace them with it" (p. 
25) tells me it's someone Cassie also knows. I think Norma is a good 
candidate for Rian's mother. Rian's mother named him (p. 277), and Rian 
and Norma are both Gaelic names. Norma says she "used to be married to 
the volcano god" but leaves it open whether she means Vince Palma or 
Bill Reis. I think it's the latter.

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:45:08 +0000

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 8:16 AM, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote:
> since Reis talked about Rian's ability to play football after the healing.

An echo of Golden City Far?

>> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:41:45 +0000

> An echo of Golden City Far?
Not to mention Sir Able of the High Heart, healed and performance-enhanced with fey intervention.

---

From: stoneox17 at aol.com <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:38:30 +0000

Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> says

> Bill Reis. I think it's the latter.

Just one comment: Springfield is the city where the first production of
"Dating the Volcano God" was held; it's around 100 miles (I'd have to
check my copy for the exact distance, if it's given) from the unnamed 
city
where  Cassie and Sharon live, and where Gideon Chase is a Professor.
Since he teaches at Miskatonic University, this city is very probably
Arkham, Mass, although I believe there was some comment somewhere
in the book that implies that it's closer to Providence than the actual
fictional Arkham, Mass (which Wikipedia informs me is in Essex County,
Massachusetts).

Since Lovecraft lived in Providence (in actual life), this all fits 
together.
Sorry, I don't have my copy here so I can't dig up these references.

Peter

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:45:24 +0000

> Pat Gomez. Rian's case doesn't seem anything like those.

I agree with Dave T. on both counts.

> it would be more natural to say "...he and his family have shown to me

Naturally I agree with Dave T. that Rian's mother was Bill's first wife. But
I think David D. is right about the rich yacht owner being Rian's mother. It
makes perfect sense that Bill's first wife was rich, and she has to be
someone of importance or she wouldn't be listed in the cast of characters.
She was a former beauty, which fits Reis' known predilection for the type.
And wealthy men are often known to dump trophy wives when they start to lose
their shine. She showed broken Cassie her motherly instinct, which is in
consonance with a mother who had cared for a sickly child.

-Roy

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:57:12 +0000

> Sorry, I don't have my copy here so I can't dig up these references.

Dave meant Kingsport, not Springfield. The name of the city is mentioned
several times in the text, including the "Cast" list at the end.

-Roy

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:58:20 +0000

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008, Dave Tallman wrote:

> According to the timelines that Roy Lackey and I worked out...

WRT the timeline, I can't remember if you included

"A hundred and fifty-odd years ago there was a man called Cranston..." 
puts the present day at
"The Shadow debuted on July 31, 1930" [Wikipedia] + 150 = 2080

Knowing nothing about the Shadow, that article through up a lot of 
features to look for, most of which others have already noted. 
But, apropos clones

"One of these identities was Lamont Cranston, a 'wealthy young man about 
town.' In the pulps, Cranston was a separate character; Allard frequently 
disguised himself as Cranston and adopted his identity. While Cranston 
traveled the world, Allard assumed his identity in New York. Apparently, 
the disguise worked well because Allard and Cranston bore something of a 
resemblance to each other.

"His other disguises included businessman Henry Arnaud, elderly gentleman 
Isaac Twambley, and Fritz, a doddering old janitor who works at Police 
Headquarters in order to listen in on conversations."

He had 'the mysterious power to cloud men's minds, so they could not see 
him', a master of hypnotism, dresses in dark clothes, is violent against 
criminals, but is fighting for good.

David Duffy.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:13:40 +0000

> consonance with a mother who had cared for a sickly child.
You may have something here. The "comforted her like a mother" is very 
telling. It bothers me that Pavlatos seems like a Greek name and Rian is 
Irish/Gaelic, but the "Madame" suggests a remarriage, like Jackie 
Kennedy to Aristotle Onassis (note the yacht connection).

I'm not completely giving up on Norma, however. If she's not the first 
wife she may be the second. Sharon had to learn of Rian from someone, 
and Reis would have told his second wife about him, just as he told Cassie.

> several times in the text, including the "Cast" list at the end.
I did indeed mean Kingsport, thanks.

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:19:45 +0000

Or is that a subliminal message?

Cassie:   Oh Lord! Yes, I remember.
Assassin: Well, you should Cassie dear, since he died for you...

-- 
| David Duffy (MBBS PhD)                                         ,-_|\
| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au  ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101  /     *
| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research   \_,-._/
| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia  GPG 4D0B994A v

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:03:20 +0000

At 07:37 23/12/2008, David wrote:
>And I presume his mother (who is wealthy) might well own "a thousand 
>million" and a yacht.

I must have missed something here. Why do we postulate any connection 
between Mme Pavlatos and Reis's first wife? Other than general 
suspicion of Wolfean reluctance to create new characters when he can 
subtly re-use others referred to earlier, what is there to link them?

best wishes,

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

WolfeWiki now at:
http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:47:57 +0000

Mo Holkar wrote:

 By the same logic, Dorcas was just a random woman Severian happened to pull
out of a lake. We know Wolfe loves to do puzzles like this. The clues match
up well:
1) Rich -- Rian's mother had to be rich to afford to consult Chase.
2) Beautiful - Reis liked to marry beauties.
3) Motherly.
4) The Jackie Kennedy Onassis parallel, which hints at an Irish background
(for Rian's name).
5) In the credits even though she has only a small paragraph in the
narrative.
6) Present in the vicinity of the islands soon after Reis' death. A mere
pleasure-cruise in an area that had a recent hurricane? Or maybe inheritance
issues concerning Rian?

Wolfe goes out of his way to say that Reis was married twice, which invites
us to find his other wife, too. Who in the credits makes the best candidate?
1) India -- gay.
2) Ebony -- likewise ("How is life in India?").
3) Margaret -- not glamorous enough.
4) Alexis -- not much money from the divorce, if she wound up as a waitress.
5) Sharon -- has too little info about Reis.
6) Norma -- the only one who admits to a prior marriage with a strong Reis
connection ("I used to be married to the volcano god").
7) Tabbi -- Took over the role of Reverend Brown's wife from Norma, so she's
a possible.
8) Zelda -- her story of starting her own agency doesn't fit
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20081224/a23e0833/attachment.htm>

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:25:47 +0000

At the post"Red Spot" party, Wolfe includes some interactions between 
Norma and Vince. I'd like to look at them for clues to see if they were 
ever married. That may help clarify whether she means Vince or Reis when 
she says "I used to be married to the volcano god."

Vince mentions "the Gray Neighbors" and Norma says "I'll be damned if I 
have the foggiest idea what that's supposed to mean" (p. 64). If they 
were married for two years, it's surprising that Norma never heard Vince 
speak of this before.

"You've made westerns. I know you have," Norma says to Vince on p. 65. 
The repetition "I know you have" weakens the assertion, as if she thinks 
he would doubt her knowledge. This is more evidence against the marriage.

Incidentally, the fact that Vince has made westerns indicates he isn't 
just Reis under a glamour. Westerns are typically movies or TV shows, 
not plays, and glamours can't fool cameras. Vince may be a "big name" 
actor who has come down in the world. (He was also used for voice-overs 
in "Memorare." The cult-trap seems to be one big glamour field itself, 
including the camera defect. Could there be a connection to Gideon Chase 
or his father?)

---

From: Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:52:09 +0000

Finished AEG this morning with that frustrating "interrupted" feeling I always get on a first read of a Wolfe Novel that I'd only been told half the story.  I've been trolling the list and finding many helpful clues; these thoughts are just off-the-cuff throwaway attempts to resolve my own sense of reaching for resolution and not finding it.
 
1) In "The Tree is My Hat," Hanga is evil; in AEG, he appears at least friendly, and in Cassie's dream, he's protecting her from Squiddie god.  But then he eats the tourist from Perth.  Is some reconciliation needed concerning his character between these two works?
 
2) I vaguely remember from "Tree" that there's some part of the island where the main character (Baden [?]) can sense the presence of dead people - might that explain Cassie's smelling Reis' cologne, etc.  Perhaps someone with a better knowledge of "Tree" can comment.
 
3) I can't get Gideon's statement that it is much harder to go up than down out of my head - it deepens and complicates the novel.  Without it, one might assume Gideon stays immoral throughout the novel; his characterization is flat-out creepy in the first chapter, and he says things about good/evil which I'm sure Wolfe passionately disagrees with.  Reis, for all his similarities to Gideon, seems morally opposite: before he dies, he tells Cassie he really tried to do as much good as he could, something Gideon could never really say (Gideon also keeps working for three or four groups, playing them off each other for his own advantage).
 
Anyway, Gideon is saying that it's much harder to go up in the context of biology on Woldercan, but then he talks about loving Cassie: the meaning seems to shift to Gideon's moral improvement/raising, and that Cassie's doing that.  We get evidence that he's not flat-out evil later on in the book.  But I wonder if his absence toward the end of the novel is meant as a kind of imprisonment within his own intellectual world: having denied any greater good beyond convenience or perspective, he simultaneously can tell Cassie he loves her but doesn't get the kind of connection with her which Reis does; their romance is much less fully realized.  Perhaps that's how we're supposed to think of Gideon: a sly spy who can get what he wants, but is denied the intimacy which the good Reis does.
 
4) I was struck by how the novel comes full circle by the end; Gideon is the evil guest at the beginning, but by the end, we know of a far more evil guest (Squiddie) who, so far as we know, is still there.  And by the end, Gideon is an (evil?) ambassador/guest on Woldercan, a planet which is obviously dangerous too.  I was also struck by how Cassie, leaving to meet him, longs for Reis; she doesn't think, Well, at least I'm getting back to sexy Gideon.  I think the novel is supposed to leave us somewhere in the middle: gains have been made, the cosmos has been (partially) restored, but it is still deeply flawed.  The storm wiped out many of Squiddie's worshippers, but Squiddie is apparently still there.  Woldercan is dangerous, and Earth's ambassador ambiguous; but Cassie is going.  Instead of Earth being invaded by guests, now Earth is sending her own.  I guess I find myself a bit more resolved about things by the end of the novel.
 
5) What's up with Cassie screaming about the devil's son being born during the storm?
 
6) Totally agree that the novel is placing a Lovecraftian cosmology within a larger Christian framework, just as Wizard-Knight does with Norse mythology, etc.
 
7) Someone posted earlier about similarities between AEG and BOTNS; I think similarities like that span across all of Wolfe's works.  A character dying in the sea and yet continuing to exist (Sev., Able, the detective from Oakland), sea monsters who are aliens, etc.  Also, every major Wolfe character seems to hit bottom and flat out despair at some point; Cassie seems to on the island, and Silk, Horn, Able, and Latro all do.  Perhaps recurrences within Wolfe's own consciousness.
 
FWIW.
 
-------------------------
Invite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College and Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer.  
-------------------------
This e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 6273 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20081228/1faf2aba/attachment.bin>

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 01:07:09 +0000

> 1) In "The Tree is My Hat," Hanga is evil; in AEG, he appears at least friendly, and in Cassie's dream, he's protecting her from Squiddie god.  But then he eats the tourist from Perth.  Is some rec…
I think Hanga is amoral and hungry, like a shark. He pledged friendship 
to Baden, but couldn't be made to understand that he shouldn't eat 
Baden's family. As King Kanoa says, he's just a "bit peckish at times."

Florence McNair thought Cassie was crazy, and in Hanga's mind seemed to 
be annoying her. When Cassie overhears "She keeps talking and talking," 
Hanga asks Cassie "Would you wish the hotel guests gone, Cassie Casey? 
All save you?" (p. 230). In other words. "Are these people bothering 
you?" Hanga must have concluded that McNair was, and so he took care of 
her for Cassie.

> 3) I can't get Gideon's statement that it is much harder to go up than down out of my head - it deepens and complicates the novel.  Without it, one might assume Gideon stays immoral throughout the…
In the context of p. 100, Gideon's statement about it being easy for 
someone who has been transformed up to slip back down is a warning to 
Casey -- she was transformed up to something like  an angel, and she 
could lose that (she does). It could also refer to Gid, but he says he 
is unable to go either down or up. There is certainly a shift in moral 
perception of the characters; by the end we think much better of Reis 
and somewhat worse of Chase.

As for the "immoral" statement Gid makes, consider Cassie's 
interpretation on p. 179. "Gid says there's no good or evil, and it took 
me a long time to understand what he meant by it... Mariah believes in 
God, but we don't. Add nothing to God and you get good." In the absence 
of religious belief, statements about good and evil are often used 
loosely, for mere matters of personal convenience and preference, like 
the "bad dog" example Gid mentions. I'm not so sure Wolfe would reject 
Gid's philosophy, as far as it goes.

> 5) What's up with Cassie screaming about the devil's son being born during the storm?
It almost seems like a prophecy -- Cassie is sometimes called Cassandra. 
after all. There was a child with a "prophecy" about his birth -- Gideon 
Chase. He is a wizard like Merlin, and Merlin has been called the child 
of the devil. The "tonight" part is strange, but remember time is 
different in Woldercan.

---

From: John Smith <jsmith2627 at att.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:09:33 +0000

--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote:

> From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Random Semi-Literary Thoughts on AEG

> God, but we don't. Add nothing to God and you get
> good." 

Isn't this last sentence also a play on words?   Take the word "God" and add 0 (zero = nothing) and you get "Go0d" or "good."

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:45:39 +0000

> Isn't this last sentence also a play on words?   Take the word "God" and add 0 (zero = nothing) and you get "Go0d" or "good."
Yes. I thought that was so obvious it went without saying, but I've done 
a lot of cryptic crosswords.

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 09:39:42 +0000

At 18:47 24/12/2008, you wrote:

>By the same logic, Dorcas was just a random woman Severian happened 
>to pull out of a lake. We know Wolfe loves to do puzzles like this.

Only if Dorcas had just wandered off immediately after being pulled 
out, never to be seen in the book again.

Wolfe does of course love such puzzles, but normally the results of 
said puzzles are meaningful. This one grates for me because if true, 
there s nothing significant about it for the story or themes -- just 
"oh." Mme Pavlatos is such a minor character in the book that 
relating her to Reis etc would be meaningless. I think it would be 
beneath Wolfe to throw away a puzzle on her.

>The clues match up well:
>4) The Jackie Kennedy Onassis parallel, which hints at an Irish 
>background (for Rian's name).
>5) In the credits even though she has only a small paragraph in the narrative.
>6) Present in the vicinity of the islands soon after Reis' death. A 
>mere pleasure-cruise in an area that had a recent hurricane? Or 
>maybe inheritance issues concerning Rian?

Hmm, I think these are mostly pretty vague or else disputable (was 
Jackie Onassis really notably Irish?) apart from the last one, which 
needs too much guesswork to be conclusive. I'm not dismissing them, 
just feeling that by Wolfe's standards there should be a clearer 
pointer than these, if the theory is true.

>Wolfe goes out of his way to say that Reis was married twice, which 
>invites us to find his other wife, too. Who in the credits makes the 
>best candidate?
>1) India -- gay.
>6) Norma -- the only one who admits to a prior marriage with a 
>strong Reis connection ("I used to be married to the volcano god").
>7) Tabbi -- Took over the role of Reverend Brown's wife from Norma, 
>so she's a possible.

I think the successful candidate (if there is one) will be someone 
for whom the uncovered fact of the marriage sheds an interesting and 
significant light on her relationship with Cassie and the rest of the 
story. So Norma would be my favourite.

best wishes,

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

WolfeWiki now at:

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 14:06:06 +0000

> pointer than these, if the theory is true.

Jacqueline Lee Bouvier was her maiden name, and despite the French sound 
of that she was primarily of Irish, Scottish, and English ancestry. 
Kennedy is a well-known Irish name. The crew of the ship that rescued 
Cassie spoke a language that she was sure was not French (perhaps it was 
a language of the same family, like Greek). The captain was American (p. 
287), which suggests that is the nationality of Madame Pavlatos as well.

The location clue is tricky. The island where Cassie ended up was 
outside the Takanga group (p. 268). Reis chose it to avoid being spied 
on by his enemies; he wouldn't tell even Cassie where it was 
specifically. It was uninhabited and remote; Cassie saw no other ships 
when she lived there for a year. It's not a place that anyone would come 
for business related to Reis. Other than Ries, the only character who 
knew the location seems to be the Volcano God.

There was also a volcano on Takanga Ha'i, the king's island (p. 249), 
and it's the only volcano mentioned in the Takanga group. The islanders 
have a Volcano God (associated with their local volcano, but no doubt 
the same god as the one on Cassie's island). The islanders say the high 
king was chosen by the gods, or by certain gods (p. 266). The high 
queen's head was on fire (a reference to Cassie's red hair, but also 
literally true of the Volcano God as he appears to Cassie). Thus there 
is a strong connection between the Volcano God and Reis (not to mention 
that he included the god as a major character in the musical he wrote).

Could the Volcano God have communicated to someone to look on that 
island for a castaway? In "The Tree is My Hat," Hanga is able to fly and 
to follow his blood brother in an airplane a long distance from the 
island. It seems plausible that  the Volcano God could fly and get a 
message to someone of Reis' blood, like Rian. He might be able to use 
Vince Palma for this, if the possession theory is true.

The Volcano God asked Cassie to "leave flowers," i.e. he expected her to 
be leaving there (p. 286). Besides the gift of fire, he might have 
provided this additional service. In conclusion, the arrival of the ship 
of Madame Pavlatos may be no coincidence at all. Her connection to Reis 
isn't a throw-away, but an essential part of the plot.