{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5282", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5282, "subject": "Crowley and mystery", "messages": 21, "voices": 11, "first": "2008-12-17T22:38:56+00:00", "last": "2008-12-18T23:16:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20081217223856.C677FE3EE@shell.vex.net>", "from": { "name": "Zvi Gilbert", "address": "zvi at vex.net" }, "date": "2008-12-17T22:38:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get online\nand try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other readers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially _Engine Summer_ and\n_Little, Big_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful, \nbrilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I suspect a \ndiscussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and \nswooning.\n\nHowever, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The \nSolitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something that I \nwould love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its \ncharacters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano \nBruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite person \nto lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would learn a \nlot that way.\n\n--Zvi" } ] }, { "message_id": "<60675.198.1229555852.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-17T23:17:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "<20081217223856.C677FE3EE@shell.vex.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get\nonline\nand try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other readers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially _Engine Summer_ and\n_Little, Big_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that their surface is less confusing than Wolfe's, but I get\nsomething new every time I read them; and I would love to see the fine\nspelunkers of this list unleashed on them (or, as you say, _Aegypt_) to\ndig up the many things I'm sure I missed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-17T23:19:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "<60675.198.1229555852.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "anyone read Edward Whittemore's Sinai Tapestry.\nthat's a strange sort of puzzle. Odd book. One of those ones where I didn't like it until about a month later, when, not having thought about it since closing the pages, the symbols jumped out and started making sense.\nvery curious work. I'm not sure if it's scifi or not. The cover would lead you to believe it, and many elements. I suppose New Sun fans might find a lot worth pondering. Jerusalem, repeating Anchors in history, time paradoxes. I just found out it's the first of the Jerusalem Quartet. I suppose I should read the others. very strange. the blurb on the cover compared it to LOTR, which left me scratching my head big time.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Zvi Gilbert [mailto:zvi at vex.net]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 02:38 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Crowley and mystery" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get online\nand try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other readers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially _Engine Summer_ and\n_Little, Big_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful, \nbrilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I suspect a \ndiscussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and \nswooning.\n\nHowever, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The \nSolitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something that I \nwould love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its \ncharacters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano \nBruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite person \nto lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would learn a \nlot that way.\n\n--Zvi\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1159650754-1229558464-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-216544246-@bxe264.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2008-12-18T00:01:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz....you gotta slug your way through long and short sun....\n\nMyspace me willya...you around?\n\nS\n------Original Message------\nFrom: Son of Witz\nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReplyTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSent: Dec 17, 2008 3:19 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery\n\nanyone read Edward Whittemore's Sinai Tapestry.\nthat's a strange sort of puzzle. Odd book. One of those ones where I didn't like it until about a month later, when, not having thought about it since closing the pages, the symbols jumped out and started making sense.\nvery curious work. I'm not sure if it's scifi or not. The cover would lead you to believe it, and many elements. I suppose New Sun fans might find a lot worth pondering. Jerusalem, repeating Anchors in history, time paradoxes. I just found out it's the first of the Jerusalem Quartet. I suppose I should read the others. very strange. the blurb on the cover compared it to LOTR, which left me scratching my head big time.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Zvi Gilbert [mailto:zvi at vex.net]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 02:38 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Crowley and mystery" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get online\nand try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other readers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially _Engine Summer_ and\n_Little, Big_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful, \nbrilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I suspect a \ndiscussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and \nswooning.\n\nHowever, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The \nSolitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something that I \nwould love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its \ncharacters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano \nBruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite person \nto lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would learn a \nlot that way.\n\n--Zvi\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49499496.4000605@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2008-12-18T00:08:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've read all of the Jerusalem Quartet books, and Quinn's Shanghai \nCircus, which has a similar style but is more-or-less unrelated. They \nactually remind me more of Pynchon than Wolfe or Vance or Crowley, \nthough it's hard to articulate why. Probably because the whole quartet \nhas an overarching theme and some consistent macguffins but is mostly \nepisodic. I like them, but then I like Pynchon, and Flann O'Brian, and \nother strange more-or-less modernist types. Wolfe tells stories with \nplots, but tells them obscurely. Pynchon's books, and Whittemore's, have \nplots but they are at least in my opinion secondary to the desire to \nproduce effects. Wolfe is in many ways a very traditional writer on the \nsurface.\n\nWhittemore was out-of-print for a long time, but recently (the last \ncouple years) his books were all republished in rather nice trade \npaperback editions.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nanyone read Edward Whittemore's Sinai Tapestry.\nthat's a strange sort of puzzle. Odd book. One of those ones where I didn't like it until about a month later, when, not having thought about it since closing the pages, the symbols jumped out and started making sense.\nvery curious work. I'm not sure if it's scifi or not. The cover would lead you to believe it, and many elements. I suppose New Sun fans might find a lot worth pondering. Jerusalem, repeating Anchors in history, time paradoxes. I just found out it's the first of the Jerusalem Quartet. I suppose I should read the others. very strange. the blurb on the cover compared it to LOTR, which left me scratching my head big time.\n~witz\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Zvi Gilbert [mailto:zvi at vex.net]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 02:38 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Crowley and mystery\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get online\nand try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other readers.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially _Engine Summer_ and\n_Little, Big_.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful, \nbrilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I suspect a \ndiscussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and \nswooning.\n\nHowever, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The \nSolitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something that I \nwould love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its \ncharacters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano \nBruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite person \nto lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would learn a \nlot that way.\n\n--Zvi\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-18T00:12:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "<49499496.4000605@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "that makes sense.\nI've started Gravities Rainbow twice, gotten 200 pages in and thought, why the hell am I reading all these psychedelic lists of details. At least with Burroughs, the psychedelic listing is entertaining. Everyone tells me I have to get past 300 pages with Rainbow. I guess I didn't like LoTR untill about page 300, so one day I'll probably try again.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Lebling [mailto:dlebling at hyraxes.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 04:08 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery\n\nI've read all of the Jerusalem Quartet books, and Quinn's Shanghai \nCircus, which has a similar style but is more-or-less unrelated. They \nactually remind me more of Pynchon than Wolfe or Vance or Crowley, \nthough it's hard to articulate why. Probably because the whole quartet \nhas an overarching theme and some consistent macguffins but is mostly \nepisodic. I like them, but then I like Pynchon, and Flann O'Brian, and \nother strange more-or-less modernist types. Wolfe tells stories with \nplots, but tells them obscurely. Pynchon's books, and Whittemore's, have \nplots but they are at least in my opinion secondary to the desire to \nproduce effects. Wolfe is in many ways a very traditional writer on the \nsurface.\n\nWhittemore was out-of-print for a long time, but recently (the last \ncouple years) his books were all republished in rather nice trade \npaperback editions.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "anyone read Edward Whittemore's Sinai Tapestry.\nthat's a strange sort of puzzle. Odd book. One of those ones where I didn't like it until about a month later, when, not having thought about it since closing the pages, the symbols jumped out and started making sense.\nvery curious work. I'm not sure if it's scifi or not. The cover would lead you to believe it, and many elements. I suppose New Sun fans might find a lot worth pondering. Jerusalem, repeating Anchors in history, time paradoxes. I just found out it's the first of the Jerusalem Quartet. I suppose I should read the others. very strange. the blurb on the cover compared it to LOTR, which left me scratching my head big time.\n~witz\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Zvi Gilbert [mailto:zvi at vex.net]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 02:38 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Crowley and mystery\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get online\nand try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other readers.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially _Engine Summer_ and\n_Little, Big_.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful, \nbrilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I suspect a \ndiscussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and \nswooning.\n\nHowever, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The \nSolitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something that I \nwould love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its \ncharacters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano \nBruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite person \nto lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would learn a \nlot that way.\n\n--Zvi\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-18T00:13:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "<20081217223856.C677FE3EE@shell.vex.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2008, at 4:38 PM, Zvi Gilbert wrote:\n\nI don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful,\nbrilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I \nsuspect a\ndiscussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and\nswooning.\n\nHowever, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The\nSolitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something \nthat I\nwould love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its\ncharacters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano\nBruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite \nperson\nto lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would \nlearn a\nlot that way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I, er, might be able to help.\n\nI did my Master's minor concentration in something my advisor and I \nagreed not to call \"Renaissance Weird Shit.\"\n\nIt's all a bit fuzzy now, of course, but the main point is: read \nFrances Yates. She *did* look rather like the White Queen. I don't \nknow if her sister looked like the Red Queen. Anyway, most of what \nyou need to know about Dee and Bruno (at least for the purposes of \nreading Crowley) you can get out of Yates.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-18T00:15:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz....you gotta slug your way through long and short sun...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, I'll probably start em in a couple of days. Would have started them today, but I wanted to let Urth sink in a bit more. Last read of it, I started the whole shebang over again, and promptly forgot a bunch of Urth details, which led to some embarrassingly off the mark posts.\n\nI'm itchy for them though.\n\nanyone know if the Short Sun stuff is out of print? Borders never has them on the shelf." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Myspace me willya...you around?\n\nS" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ok. Haven't been around myspace. I can barely stomache it in there, but I try to pimp my shit to bands, you know, so one does what one must.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------Original Message------\nFrom: Son of Witz\nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReplyTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSent: Dec 17, 2008 3:19 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery\n\nanyone read Edward Whittemore's Sinai Tapestry.\nthat's a strange sort of puzzle. Odd book. One of those ones where I didn't like it until about a month later, when, not having thought about it since closing the pages, the symbols jumped out and started making sense.\nvery curious work. I'm not sure if it's scifi or not. The cover would lead you to believe it, and many elements. I suppose New Sun fans might find a lot worth pondering. Jerusalem, repeating Anchors in history, time paradoxes. I just found out it's the first of the Jerusalem Quartet. I suppose I should read the others. very strange. the blurb on the cover compared it to LOTR, which left me scratching my head big time.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Zvi Gilbert [mailto:zvi at vex.net]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 02:38 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Crowley and mystery" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get online\nand try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other readers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially _Engine Summer_ and\n_Little, Big_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful, \nbrilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I suspect a \ndiscussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and \nswooning.\n\nHowever, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The \nSolitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something that I \nwould love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its \ncharacters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano \nBruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite person \nto lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would learn a \nlot that way.\n\n--Zvi\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1692354479-1229559392-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-244917941-@bxe264.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2008-12-18T00:16:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz...just have a wee bit of holiday cheer to pass your way...address? Hook up???\nS\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Son of Witz\" \nDate: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:15:00 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery\nWitz....you gotta slug your way through long and short sun...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, I'll probably start em in a couple of days. Would have started them today, but I wanted to let Urth sink in a bit more. Last read of it, I started the whole shebang over again, and promptly forgot a bunch of Urth details, which led to some embarrassingly off the mark posts.\n\nI'm itchy for them though.\n\nanyone know if the Short Sun stuff is out of print? Borders never has them on the shelf." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Myspace me willya...you around?\n\nS" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ok. Haven't been around myspace. I can barely stomache it in there, but I try to pimp my shit to bands, you know, so one does what one must.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------Original Message------\nFrom: Son of Witz\nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReplyTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSent: Dec 17, 2008 3:19 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery\n\nanyone read Edward Whittemore's Sinai Tapestry.\nthat's a strange sort of puzzle. Odd book. One of those ones where I didn't like it until about a month later, when, not having thought about it since closing the pages, the symbols jumped out and started making sense.\nvery curious work. I'm not sure if it's scifi or not. The cover would lead you to believe it, and many elements. I suppose New Sun fans might find a lot worth pondering. Jerusalem, repeating Anchors in history, time paradoxes. I just found out it's the first of the Jerusalem Quartet. I suppose I should read the others. very strange. the blurb on the cover compared it to LOTR, which left me scratching my head big time.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Zvi Gilbert [mailto:zvi at vex.net]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 02:38 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Crowley and mystery" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get online\nand try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other readers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially_Engine Summer_ and\n_Little, Big_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful, \nbrilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I suspect a \ndiscussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and \nswooning.\n\nHowever, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The \nSolitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something that I \nwould love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its \ncharacters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano \nBruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite person \nto lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would learn a \nlot that way.\n\n--Zvi\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7497.72.171.0.147.1229560031.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-18T00:27:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\nI don't believe Crowley has read Dee or Bruno except as excerpted in Yates.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 17, 2008, at 4:38 PM, Zvi Gilbert wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful,\nbrilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I\nsuspect a\ndiscussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and\nswooning.\n\nHowever, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The\nSolitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something\nthat I\nwould love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its\ncharacters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano\nBruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite\nperson\nto lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would\nlearn a\nlot that way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I, er, might be able to help.\n\nI did my Master's minor concentration in something my advisor and I\nagreed not to call \"Renaissance Weird Shit.\"\n\nIt's all a bit fuzzy now, of course, but the main point is: read\nFrances Yates. She *did* look rather like the White Queen. I don't\nknow if her sister looked like the Red Queen. Anyway, most of what\nyou need to know about Dee and Bruno (at least for the purposes of\nreading Crowley) you can get out of Yates.\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4949A0C2.6000302@goosemoon.org>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2008-12-18T01:00:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "J. Crowley sounds great! thanks for another book recommendation, folks.\n\nI also had a couple of false starts with Gravity's Rainbow, but like so \nmany folks, when I finally got into it, it got its hooks deep in me and \nI enjoyed it immensely. Just another person nudging you to read it at \nsome point. Of course, I've also still got the Long and Short Suns \nwaiting for me..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nthat makes sense.\nI've started Gravities Rainbow twice, gotten 200 pages in and thought, why the hell am I reading all these psychedelic lists of details. At least with Burroughs, the psychedelic listing is entertaining. Everyone tells me I have to get past 300 pages with Rainbow. I guess I didn't like LoTR untill about page 300, so one day I'll probably try again.\n~witz\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Lebling [mailto:dlebling at hyraxes.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 04:08 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery\n\nI've read all of the Jerusalem Quartet books, and Quinn's Shanghai \nCircus, which has a similar style but is more-or-less unrelated. They \nactually remind me more of Pynchon than Wolfe or Vance or Crowley, \nthough it's hard to articulate why. Probably because the whole quartet \nhas an overarching theme and some consistent macguffins but is mostly \nepisodic. I like them, but then I like Pynchon, and Flann O'Brian, and \nother strange more-or-less modernist types. Wolfe tells stories with \nplots, but tells them obscurely. Pynchon's books, and Whittemore's, have \nplots but they are at least in my opinion secondary to the desire to \nproduce effects. Wolfe is in many ways a very traditional writer on the \nsurface.\n\nWhittemore was out-of-print for a long time, but recently (the last \ncouple years) his books were all republished in rather nice trade \npaperback editions.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\nSon of Witz wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "anyone read Edward Whittemore's Sinai Tapestry.\nthat's a strange sort of puzzle. Odd book. One of those ones where I didn't like it until about a month later, when, not having thought about it since closing the pages, the symbols jumped out and started making sense.\nvery curious work. I'm not sure if it's scifi or not. The cover would lead you to believe it, and many elements. I suppose New Sun fans might find a lot worth pondering. Jerusalem, repeating Anchors in history, time paradoxes. I just found out it's the first of the Jerusalem Quartet. I suppose I should read the others. very strange. the blurb on the cover compared it to LOTR, which left me scratching my head big time.\n~witz\n\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Zvi Gilbert [mailto:zvi at vex.net]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 02:38 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Crowley and mystery\n\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get online\nand try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other readers.\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially _Engine Summer_ and\n_Little, Big_.\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful, \nbrilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I suspect a \ndiscussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and \nswooning.\n\nHowever, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The \nSolitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something that I \nwould love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its \ncharacters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano \nBruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite person \nto lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would learn a \nlot that way.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6633.67.142.130.21.1229565240.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-18T01:54:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "<4949A0C2.6000302@goosemoon.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It took me a few times to finish 'GR'. I can't say that I enjoyed it\nimmensely.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "J. Crowley sounds great! thanks for another book recommendation, folks.\n\nI also had a couple of false starts with Gravity's Rainbow, but like so\nmany folks, when I finally got into it, it got its hooks deep in me and\nI enjoyed it immensely. Just another person nudging you to read it at\nsome point. Of course, I've also still got the Long and Short Suns\nwaiting for me...\n\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that makes sense.\nI've started Gravities Rainbow twice, gotten 200 pages in and thought,\nwhy the hell am I reading all these psychedelic lists of details. At\nleast with Burroughs, the psychedelic listing is entertaining. Everyone\ntells me I have to get past 300 pages with Rainbow. I guess I didn't\nlike LoTR untill about page 300, so one day I'll probably try again.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Lebling [mailto:dlebling at hyraxes.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 04:08 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery\n\nI've read all of the Jerusalem Quartet books, and Quinn's Shanghai\nCircus, which has a similar style but is more-or-less unrelated. They\nactually remind me more of Pynchon than Wolfe or Vance or Crowley,\nthough it's hard to articulate why. Probably because the whole quartet\nhas an overarching theme and some consistent macguffins but is mostly\nepisodic. I like them, but then I like Pynchon, and Flann O'Brian, and\nother strange more-or-less modernist types. Wolfe tells stories with\nplots, but tells them obscurely. Pynchon's books, and Whittemore's,\nhave\nplots but they are at least in my opinion secondary to the desire to\nproduce effects. Wolfe is in many ways a very traditional writer on the\nsurface.\n\nWhittemore was out-of-print for a long time, but recently (the last\ncouple years) his books were all republished in rather nice trade\npaperback editions.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "anyone read Edward Whittemore's Sinai Tapestry.\nthat's a strange sort of puzzle. Odd book. One of those ones where I\ndidn't like it until about a month later, when, not having thought\nabout it since closing the pages, the symbols jumped out and started\nmaking sense.\nvery curious work. I'm not sure if it's scifi or not. The cover\nwould lead you to believe it, and many elements. I suppose New Sun\nfans might find a lot worth pondering. Jerusalem, repeating Anchors in\nhistory, time paradoxes. I just found out it's the first of the\nJerusalem Quartet. I suppose I should read the others. very strange.\nthe blurb on the cover compared it to LOTR, which left me scratching\nmy head big time.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Zvi Gilbert [mailto:zvi at vex.net]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 02:38 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Crowley and mystery" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get\nonline\nand try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other\nreaders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially _Engine Summer_\nand\n_Little, Big_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful,\nbrilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I\nsuspect a\ndiscussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and\nswooning.\n\nHowever, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The\nSolitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something\nthat I\nwould love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its\ncharacters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano\nBruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite\nperson\nto lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would learn\na\nlot that way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-12-18T02:11:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "<60675.198.1229555852.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 17 Dec 2008, Tim Walters wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get\nonline\nand try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other readers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially _Engine Summer_ and\n_Little, Big_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't find either of those books particularly confusing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that their surface is less confusing than Wolfe's, but I get\nsomething new every time I read them; and I would love to see the fine\nspelunkers of this list unleashed on them (or, as you say, _Aegypt_) to\ndig up the many things I'm sure I missed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You might know that a number of former list members put together\n_Snake's Hands: The Fiction of John Crowley_\n\nRecently read _Lord Byron's Novel_, which was enjoyable too. Perhaps not \nquite as dab a pastiche as the voice that Susanna Clarke uses\n\nDavid Duffy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20221.198.1229567517.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-18T02:31:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You might know that a number of former list members put together\n_Snake's Hands: The Fiction of John Crowley_" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have and like the book, but I didn't know that it was connected to this\nlist (or did you mean the Crowley list)?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-18T02:31:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun availability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "anyone know if the Short Sun stuff is out of print? \nBorders never has them on the shelf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They're in print, but that's the way it is with Wolfe. \nYou can get them off of Amazon or Abebooks. \nThe Science Fiction Book Club put out a compiled edition of \"Short Sun\".\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-12-18T03:36:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "<20221.198.1229567517.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 17 Dec 2008, Tim Walters wrote:\nYou might know that a number of former list members put together\n_Snake's Hands: The Fiction of John Crowley_" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have and like the book, but I didn't know that it was connected to this\nlist (or did you mean the Crowley list)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, here. Michael Andre-Driussi also authored Lexicon \nUrthus, you know ;) Alice Turner was Alga, and in the Digest I see is the \nsecond message ever.\n\nDavid Duffy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-12-18T04:36:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley in the Urth list", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Someone asked before about discussions of Aegypt etc. There is a fair bit \nin the archives eg http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0030/0696.shtml is \nabout the middle of them. It also answers which books JC read about Dee.\n\nApropos of nothing, I have finally started AEG -- yay.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<494A5F5F.5080809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-18T14:34:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of the Jerusalem Quartet---I'm not very familiar with it though \nI have read reviews. A quick google came up with the following description:\n\nSinai Tapestry, originally published in 1977, is the first book of \nEdward Whittemore's Jerusalem Quartet: four novels that make the long, \ncomplex history of the Middle East comprehensible as no other books do, \nand that do so by creating an alternate version of history - part real \nand part imagined (and what pleasure, while reading, to speculate on \nwhat, in the novels, is real and what imagined!) - that begins, in this \nfirst book, by telling the story of how early in the nineteenth century, \nSkanderbeg Wallenstein, a fanatical Trappist monk from Albania, comes \nupon what is \"with out question the oldest Bible in the world\" and \ndiscovers that \"It denied every religious truth ever held by anyone\"\n\nWhat would happen, then, he wonders - in ways not so different from the \nactual speculations of twentieth century Biblical scholars - \"if the \nworld suddenly suspected that Mohammed might well have lived six \ncenturies before Christ\" or that Christ had been a minor prophet in the \nage of Elijah\" or \"that the virtues of Mary and Fatima and Ruth had been \nconfused in the minds of later chroniclers and freely interchanged among \nthem?\"\n\n\"Melchizedek must have his City of Peace,\" Wallenstein. concludes, just \nas men must have their Jerusalem\" Believing that faith must be sustained \nin the world, Wallenstein also believes that if the cause for faith is \nabsent, then it is his duty to provide it. \"The decision he had made in \nhis cell,\" Whittemore tells us, \"was to forge the original Bible.\"\n\nBut this forgery - what has led to it, and what issues from it-becomes, \nin Sinai Tapestry, an imaginative conceit that informs the entire \nQuartet: It is Whittemore's way of asking us to consider the many ways \nin which illusions can give birth to realities, by which realities can \nbe transformed by dreams, and - above all - through which the real and \nthe imagined can conspire to create those events and legends that \ndetermine how we live, love, and die.\n\n\nAt a high level of abstraction, this sounds not very different from \nTBotNS. Wolfe also forges an alternate history but on a vaster scale, a \nhistory in which the miraculous truth and mundane deceit are conflated. \nNote the line about Mary and Fatima and Ruth; after chiliads, the same \nhas occurred on Urth. And the last paragraph especially." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Lebling [mailto:dlebling at hyraxes.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 04:08 PM" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-18T18:53:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "<494A5F5F.5080809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly what I was thinking.\nthe trappings are not at all similar, nor is the plot, but some of the meta concepts about time, recurrent anchors in history, fraud and veracity in religion are probably closer to BotNS than any other work I've read.\nI'll have to read the first again, then the others. Like I said, I had a strong \"WTF did I just read?\" reaction to the book, then it dawned on my, unbidden, months later in a real Aha moment. There were several complaints I had about it, but once I began to understand it more, everything I thought was sort of stupid became symbolically perfect and apt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At a high level of abstraction, this sounds not very different from \nTBotNS. Wolfe also forges an alternate history but on a vaster scale, a \nhistory in which the miraculous truth and mundane deceit are conflated. \nNote the line about Mary and Fatima and Ruth; after chiliads, the same \nhas occurred on Urth. And the last paragraph especially." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking of the Jerusalem Quartet---I'm not very familiar with it though \nI have read reviews. A quick google came up with the following description:\n\nSinai Tapestry, originally published in 1977, is the first book of \nEdward Whittemore's Jerusalem Quartet: four novels that make the long, \ncomplex history of the Middle East comprehensible as no other books do, \nand that do so by creating an alternate version of history - part real \nand part imagined (and what pleasure, while reading, to speculate on \nwhat, in the novels, is real and what imagined!) - that begins, in this \nfirst book, by telling the story of how early in the nineteenth century, \nSkanderbeg Wallenstein, a fanatical Trappist monk from Albania, comes \nupon what is \"with out question the oldest Bible in the world\" and \ndiscovers that \"It denied every religious truth ever held by anyone\"\n\nWhat would happen, then, he wonders - in ways not so different from the \nactual speculations of twentieth century Biblical scholars - \"if the \nworld suddenly suspected that Mohammed might well have lived six \ncenturies before Christ\" or that Christ had been a minor prophet in the \nage of Elijah\" or \"that the virtues of Mary and Fatima and Ruth had been \nconfused in the minds of later chroniclers and freely interchanged among \nthem?\"\n\n\"Melchizedek must have his City of Peace,\" Wallenstein. concludes, just \nas men must have their Jerusalem\" Believing that faith must be sustained \nin the world, Wallenstein also believes that if the cause for faith is \nabsent, then it is his duty to provide it. \"The decision he had made in \nhis cell,\" Whittemore tells us, \"was to forge the original Bible.\"\n\nBut this forgery - what has led to it, and what issues from it-becomes, \nin Sinai Tapestry, an imaginative conceit that informs the entire \nQuartet: It is Whittemore's way of asking us to consider the many ways \nin which illusions can give birth to realities, by which realities can \nbe transformed by dreams, and - above all - through which the real and \nthe imagined can conspire to create those events and legends that \ndetermine how we live, love, and die.\n\n\nAt a high level of abstraction, this sounds not very different from \nTBotNS. Wolfe also forges an alternate history but on a vaster scale, a \nhistory in which the miraculous truth and mundane deceit are conflated. \nNote the line about Mary and Fatima and Ruth; after chiliads, the same \nhas occurred on Urth. And the last paragraph especially." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Lebling [mailto:dlebling at hyraxes.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 04:08 PM" } ] }, { "message_id": "<494AD7FD.5000505@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-18T23:08:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, other than what I quoted, it does sound fairly silly. I have a low tolerance for silly unless it's funny (see Snow Crash: very silly, not funny). Wolfe always disguises his silly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:53:31 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nExactly what I was thinking.\nthe trappings are not at all similar, nor is the plot, but some of the meta concepts about time, recurrent anchors in history, fraud and veracity in religion are probably closer to BotNS than any other work I've read.\nI'll have to read the first again, then the others. Like I said, I had a strong \"WTF did I just read?\" reaction to the book, then it dawned on my, unbidden, months later in a real Aha moment. There were several complaints I had about it, but once I began to understand it more, everything I thought was sort of stupid became symbolically perfect and apt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nAt a high level of abstraction, this sounds not very different from \nTBotNS. Wolfe also forges an alternate history but on a vaster scale, a \nhistory in which the miraculous truth and mundane deceit are conflated. \nNote the line about Mary and Fatima and Ruth; after chiliads, the same \nhas occurred on Urth. And the last paragraph especially." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-18T23:16:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley and mystery", "in_reply_to": "<494AD7FD.5000505@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, it wasn't overtly silly. It was there, but fairly straight faced and highbrow, as in Wolfe.\n\"He mispronounced quite common words: urticate, salpinx, bordereau.\"\nLoL.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 03:08 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery\n\nYeah, other than what I quoted, it does sound fairly silly. I have a low tolerance for silly unless it's funny (see Snow Crash: very silly, not funny). Wolfe always disguises his silly.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:53:31 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nExactly what I was thinking.\nthe trappings are not at all similar, nor is the plot, but some of the meta concepts about time, recurrent anchors in history, fraud and veracity in religion are probably closer to BotNS than any other work I've read.\nI'll have to read the first again, then the others. Like I said, I had a strong \"WTF did I just read?\" reaction to the book, then it dawned on my, unbidden, months later in a real Aha moment. There were several complaints I had about it, but once I began to understand it more, everything I thought was sort of stupid became symbolically perfect and apt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At a high level of abstraction, this sounds not very different from \nTBotNS. Wolfe also forges an alternate history but on a vaster scale, a \nhistory in which the miraculous truth and mundane deceit are conflated. \nNote the line about Mary and Fatima and Ruth; after chiliads, the same \nhas occurred on Urth. And the last paragraph especially." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081218-0, 12/18/2008\nTested on: 12/18/2008 6:08:59 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }