Subject: (urth) Crowley and mystery

From: Zvi Gilbert <zvi at vex.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:38:56 +0000

> > It's just probably not the sort of stuff that inspires me to get online
> > and try to hash out what the hell is going on with some other readers.
> For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially _Engine Summer_ and
> _Little, Big_.

I don't find either of those books particularly confusing. Wonderful, 
brilliant, and exquisite, yes; but they're not New Sun-like. I suspect a 
discussion of it for me would devolve into quoting favorite lines and 
swooning.

However, Crowley's long and complex four novel series Aegypt (The 
Solitudes, Love & Sleep, Daemonomania, Endless Things) is something that I 
would love to hash over with interested parties. As many of its 
characters and situations are drawn from history (John Dee, Giordano 
Bruno, and so forth), I would just like some particularly erudite person 
to lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would learn a 
lot that way.

--Zvi

---

From: Tim Walters <walters at doubtfulpalace.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:17:32 +0000

> I don't find either of those books particularly confusing.

I agree that their surface is less confusing than Wolfe's, but I get
something new every time I read them; and I would love to see the fine
spelunkers of this list unleashed on them (or, as you say, _Aegypt_) to
dig up the many things I'm sure I missed.

-- 
Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com

---

From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:19:43 +0000

anyone read Edward Whittemore's Sinai Tapestry.
that's a strange sort of puzzle.  Odd book. One of those ones where I didn't like it until about a month later, when, not having thought about it since closing the pages, the symbols jumped out and started making sense.
very curious work.  I'm not sure if it's scifi or not.  The cover would lead you to believe it, and many elements.  I suppose New Sun fans might find a lot worth pondering. Jerusalem, repeating Anchors in history, time paradoxes. I just found out it's the first of the Jerusalem Quartet. I suppose I should read the others.  very strange.  the blurb on the cover compared it to LOTR, which left me scratching my head big time.
~witz

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Zvi Gilbert [mailto:zvi at vex.net]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 02:38 PM
>To: urth at lists.urth.net
>Subject: (urth) Crowley and mystery
>
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From: hammstu at sbcglobal.net <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:01:07 +0000

Witz....you gotta slug your way through long and short sun....

Myspace me willya...you around?

S
------Original Message------
From: Son of Witz
Sender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net
To: The Urth Mailing List
ReplyTo: The Urth Mailing List
Sent: Dec 17, 2008 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery

Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed

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From: Dave Lebling <dlebling at hyraxes.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:08:54 +0000

I've read all of the Jerusalem Quartet books, and Quinn's Shanghai 
Circus, which has a similar style but is more-or-less unrelated. They 
actually remind me more of Pynchon than Wolfe or Vance or Crowley, 
though it's hard to articulate why. Probably because the whole quartet 
has an overarching theme and some consistent macguffins but is mostly 
episodic. I like them, but then I like Pynchon, and Flann O'Brian, and 
other strange more-or-less modernist types. Wolfe tells stories with 
plots, but tells them obscurely. Pynchon's books, and Whittemore's, have 
plots but they are at least in my opinion secondary to the desire to 
produce effects. Wolfe is in many ways a very traditional writer on the 
surface.

Whittemore was out-of-print for a long time, but recently (the last 
couple years) his books were all republished in rather nice trade 
paperback editions.

-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha

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From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:12:10 +0000

that makes sense.
I've started Gravities Rainbow twice, gotten 200 pages in and thought, why the hell am I reading all these psychedelic lists of details.  At least with Burroughs, the psychedelic listing is entertaining.  Everyone tells me I have to get past 300 pages with Rainbow.  I guess I didn't like LoTR untill about page 300, so one day I'll probably try again.
~witz

>From: Dave Lebling [mailto:dlebling at hyraxes.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 04:08 PM
>To: 'The Urth Mailing List'

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:13:52 +0000

> to lecture at me about the source material -- I suspect I would  

I, er, might be able to help.

I did my Master's minor concentration in something my advisor and I  
agreed not to call "Renaissance Weird Shit."

It's all a bit fuzzy now, of course, but the main point is: read  
Frances Yates.  She *did* look rather like the White Queen.  I don't  
know if her sister looked like the Red Queen.  Anyway, most of what  
you need to know about Dee and Bruno (at least for the purposes of  
reading Crowley) you can get out of Yates.

Adam
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From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:15:00 +0000

>Witz....you gotta slug your way through long and short sun....

yeah, I'll probably start em in a couple of days. Would have started them today, but I wanted to let Urth sink in a bit more.  Last read of it, I started the whole shebang over again, and promptly forgot a bunch of Urth details, which led to some embarrassingly off the mark posts.

I'm itchy for them though.

anyone know if the Short Sun stuff is out of print?  Borders never has them on the shelf.

>Myspace me willya...you around?

ok.  Haven't been around myspace.  I can barely stomache it in there, but I try to pimp my shit to bands, you know, so one does what one must.
~witz

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From: hammstu at sbcglobal.net <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:16:34 +0000

Witz...just have a wee bit of holiday cheer to pass your way...address? Hook up???
S
Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed

-----Original Message-----
From: "Son of Witz" <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:15:00 
To: The Urth Mailing List<urth at lists.urth.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery

>>> For that, I would recommend John Crowley, especially_Engine Summer_ and
>>>_Little, Big_.
>>

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:27:11 +0000

Indeed.

I don't believe Crowley has read Dee or Bruno except as excerpted in Yates.

.

> Adam_______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List

---

From: Allan Anderson <rubel at goosemoon.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 01:00:50 +0000

J. Crowley sounds great! thanks for another book recommendation, folks.

I also had a couple of false starts with Gravity's Rainbow, but like so 
many folks, when I finally got into it, it got its hooks deep in me and 
I enjoyed it immensely. Just another person nudging you to read it at 
some point. Of course, I've also still got the Long and Short Suns 
waiting for me...

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 01:54:00 +0000

It took me a few times to finish 'GR'. I can't say that I enjoyed it
immensely.

.

>> I've started Gravities Rainbow twice, gotten 200 pages in and thought,
>> why the hell am I reading all these psychedelic lists of details.  At
>> least with Burroughs, the psychedelic listing is entertaining.  Everyone
>> tells me I have to get past 300 pages with Rainbow.  I guess I didn't
>> like LoTR untill about page 300, so one day I'll probably try again.
>> ~witz
>>
>>
>>>> that's a strange sort of puzzle.  Odd book. One of those ones where I
>>>> didn't like it until about a month later, when, not having thought
>>>> about it since closing the pages, the symbols jumped out and started
>>>> making sense.
>>>> very curious work.  I'm not sure if it's scifi or not.  The cover
>>>> would lead you to believe it, and many elements.  I suppose New Sun
>>>> fans might find a lot worth pondering. Jerusalem, repeating Anchors in
>>>> history, time paradoxes. I just found out it's the first of the
>>>> Jerusalem Quartet. I suppose I should read the others.  very strange.
>>>> the blurb on the cover compared it to LOTR, which left me scratching
>>>> my head big time.
>>>> ~witz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:11:39 +0000

> dig up the many things I'm sure I missed.

You might know that a number of former list members put together
_Snake's Hands: The Fiction of John Crowley_

Recently read _Lord Byron's Novel_, which was enjoyable too.  Perhaps not 
quite as dab a pastiche as the voice that Susanna Clarke uses

David Duffy.

-- 
| David Duffy (MBBS PhD)                                         ,-_|\
| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au  ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101  /     *
| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research   \_,-._/
| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia  GPG 4D0B994A v

---

From: Tim Walters <walters at doubtfulpalace.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:31:57 +0000

> _Snake's Hands: The Fiction of John Crowley_

I have and like the book, but I didn't know that it was connected to this
list (or did you mean the Crowley list)?

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:31:57 +0000

>Borders never has them on the shelf.

They're in print, but that's the way it is with Wolfe. 
You can get them off of Amazon or Abebooks. 
The Science Fiction Book Club put out a compiled edition of "Short Sun".

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 03:36:57 +0000

> list (or did you mean the Crowley list)?

No, here.  Michael Andre-Driussi also authored Lexicon 
Urthus, you know ;)  Alice Turner was Alga, and in the Digest I see is the 
second message ever.

David Duffy

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 04:36:04 +0000

Someone asked before about discussions of Aegypt etc.  There is a fair bit 
in the archives eg http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0030/0696.shtml is 
about the middle of them.  It also answers which books JC read about Dee.

Apropos of nothing, I have finally started AEG -- yay.

David Duffy.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:34:07 +0000

Speaking of the Jerusalem Quartet---I'm not very familiar with it though 
I have read reviews. A quick google came up with the following description:

Sinai Tapestry, originally published in 1977, is the first book of 
Edward Whittemore's Jerusalem Quartet: four novels that make the long, 
complex history of the Middle East comprehensible as no other books do, 
and that do so by creating an alternate version of history - part real 
and part imagined (and what pleasure, while reading, to speculate on 
what, in the novels, is real and what imagined!) - that begins, in this 
first book, by telling the story of how early in the nineteenth century, 
Skanderbeg Wallenstein, a fanatical Trappist monk from Albania, comes 
upon what is "with out question the oldest Bible in the world" and 
discovers that "It denied every religious truth ever held by anyone"

What would happen, then, he wonders - in ways not so different from the 
actual speculations of twentieth century Biblical scholars - "if the 
world suddenly suspected that Mohammed might well have lived six 
centuries before Christ" or that Christ had been a minor prophet in the 
age of Elijah" or "that the virtues of Mary and Fatima and Ruth had been 
confused in the minds of later chroniclers and freely interchanged among 
them?"

"Melchizedek must have his City of Peace," Wallenstein. concludes, just 
as men must have their Jerusalem" Believing that faith must be sustained 
in the world, Wallenstein also believes that if the cause for faith is 
absent, then it is his duty to provide it. "The decision he had made in 
his cell," Whittemore tells us, "was to forge the original Bible."

But this forgery - what has led to it, and what issues from it-becomes, 
in Sinai Tapestry, an imaginative conceit that informs the entire 
Quartet: It is Whittemore's way of asking us to consider the many ways 
in which illusions can give birth to realities, by which realities can 
be transformed by dreams, and - above all - through which the real and 
the imagined can conspire to create those events and legends that 
determine how we live, love, and die.

At a high level of abstraction, this sounds not very different from 
TBotNS. Wolfe also forges an alternate history but on a vaster scale, a 
history in which the miraculous truth and mundane deceit are conflated. 
Note the line about Mary and Fatima and Ruth; after chiliads, the same 
has occurred on Urth. And the last paragraph especially.

>>>>> the blurb on the cover compared it to LOTR, which left me scratching

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From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:53:31 +0000

Exactly what I was thinking.
the trappings are not at all similar, nor is the plot, but some of the meta concepts about time, recurrent anchors in history, fraud and veracity in religion are probably closer to BotNS than any other work I've read.
I'll have to read the first again, then the others.  Like I said, I had a strong "WTF did I just read?" reaction to the book, then it dawned on my, unbidden, months later in a real Aha moment.  There were several complaints I had about it, but once I began to understand it more, everything I thought was sort of stupid became symbolically perfect and apt.

>From: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:08:45 +0000

Yeah, other than what I quoted, it does sound fairly silly. I have a low tolerance for silly unless it's funny (see Snow Crash: very silly, not funny). Wolfe always disguises his silly.

------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:53:31 +0000
From: "Son of Witz" <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Subject: Re: (urth) Crowley and mystery
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
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From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:16:49 +0000

yeah, it wasn't overtly silly.  It was there, but fairly straight faced and highbrow, as in Wolfe.
"He mispronounced quite common words: urticate, salpinx, bordereau."
LoL.

~witz

>Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 03:08 PM