{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5284", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5284, "subject": "Particolored Brocade", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2008-12-19T18:07:07+00:00", "last": "2008-12-20T19:30:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-19T18:07:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Particolored Brocade", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Here's one for the Wolfe Inspired Music, Particolored Brocade to the tune of Rasberry Beret)\n\n\nI just realized that the multicolored lining in Don Maitz's Shadow cover isn't as completely off the mark as I thought it was. While it's true that the Guild cloaks are never described as having a colored lining (Malrubius at one point has a fur lined cloak) there is a very important cloak that does.\n\nIn Urth, Chapter XXV\nSeverian dresses from the closet in his stateroom on his return trip from Yesod.\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nI selected a pair of loose, dark trousers bound at the waist with a russet sash, a tunic with an open neck and large pockets, and a cloak of the true fuligin of that guild of which I am still officially a master, lined with particolored brocade.\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nParticolored meaning Two or More colors.\n\nlater in XXXIII:\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nalthough this cloak (...) was fuligin purely by chance,\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nOne wonders if it is chance, or more Hierodoings, since they know WHEN they are sending him back to.\n\nThis is the Cloak he's wearing when he is Conciliator in the Age of the Monarch. He has it on while he is performing his miracles. He is known as the Conciliator by the time he is arrested and taken to the jailers. On the speedboat, his cloak and shirt are stolen.\n\"The man who took them will cut them up and sell the pieces, I imagine. He should make something from them. Wear this---I've got another one in my cabin.\"\nThe Cape the Jr. Officer gives him in place is what he has on during the Flood, though Wolfe writes \"cloak\" not \"cape\" there.\n\n\nWhy is any of this relevant?\n\nI was toying with Conciliator iconography last night, trying to figure out how he would be portrayed. This was a big mystery for me on the first read. It dawned on me that he's wearing this Fuligin cloak with the particolored brocade most of the time he's doing the acts that make people think of him as Conciliator, so this would undoubtedly show up in the iconography of his followers. One of whom must be Ymar, though he wouldn't have seen the Fuligin cloak. It would seem that Ymar, in creating the Autarchy, infused his state with Conciliator/NewSun symbols (Phoenix Throne) and had the Jailers turned into The Guild, and honored them with the Fuligin cloaks of the Conciliator, though they apparently lack the lining. When the guard of the jailers is described, he has the carnificial sword, but no cloak is mentioned. That Ymar would give this honor to the Guild is not that surprising because it's where his own roots are.\n\nThere is also, of course, the beautiful metaphor of death and resurrection right there in that cloak alone, Fuligin out, Multicolored within. That's one thing I really like about Maitz's painting.\n\nOf course, Maitz's painting was done before Urth was written, so perhaps Wolfe liked it and wrote it in.\n\nI love how this detail adds texture to the time loop situation of Severian becoming the myth that inspired him. This would be a crucial aspect of the Conciliator iconography, because, lacking that, what other symbols mark him as different. With Christ, he might always look a bit different, but you've usually got a cross or a halo to identify him. While, I suspect Conciliator icons would potentially have halos, (black halos) this Fuligin cloak would identify him distinctly, while the artist's rendering of his face would vary as much as any Christ picture does.\n\nCripes, only Wolfe would take something that ripe and make it practically unnoticeable. \n\nneat.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<494D2CCD.1020604@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-20T17:35:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Particolored Brocade", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good observation. Severian is the Black Sun and is probably depicted with a black halo, and it may be his own iconography he sees in the green book (\"ascetic pantocrators and hypostases with black halos and gemlike\nrobes\"), which I always suspected. \n\nI also have wondered about Ymar. How and why did he start the Autarchy? Wouldn't the alzabo be needed for this, and thus, presumably, Father Inire? Why and when did Father Inire get involved with the Commonwealth? Were the death of Typhon and the appearance of the Conciliator a cause, or Ymar's just rule itself? Severian tells him, \" 'Ymar, someday you will become the ruler. You'll be the monarch, although I don't think you'll call yourself that. Try to rule for Urth, and not just in Urth's name as so many have. Rule justly, or at least as justly as circumstances permit.' \" \n\nThe Guild may have already existed under Typhon, however. At least, an office existed that carried out torture for the monarch. But it uses a \"strange uniform\" rather than fuligin and may not use the term \"journeyman.\" (Severian is vague on that point.) They are clearly not military but another branch, but are closer to being military than in Severian's time: \"another journeyman with a vouge, looking almost like a soldier.\" So that's several points on which Severian created his own legend.\n\nHis face would undoubtedly be depicted unscarred and possibly young-looking.\n\n\n\nIncidentally, Herena says, speaking of the southern ice, \"Great Erebus, who has established his kingdom there, will soon be driven before them, with all his fierce, pale warriors.\" So Erebus at least would not be able to survive ice, and the volcano must be dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:07:07 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: (urth) Particolored Brocade\nTo: urth at urth.net\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\n\n\n* * *\n\nI was toying with Conciliator iconography last night, trying to figure out how he would be portrayed. This was a big mystery for me on the first read. It dawned on me that he's wearing this Fuligin cloak with the particolored brocade most of the time he's doing the acts that make people think of him as Conciliator, so this would undoubtedly show up in the iconography of his followers. One of whom must be Ymar, though he wouldn't have seen the Fuligin cloak. It would seem that Ymar, in creating the Autarchy, infused his state with Conciliator/NewSun symbols (Phoenix Throne) and had the Jailers turned into The Guild, and honored them with the Fuligin cloaks of the Conciliator, though they apparently lack the lining. When the guard of the jailers is described, he has the carnificial sword, but no cloak is mentioned. That Ymar would give this honor to the Guild is not that surprising because it's where his own roots are.\n\nThere is also, of course, the beautiful metaphor of death and resurrection right there in that cloak alone, Fuligin out, Multicolored within. That's one thing I really like about Maitz's painting.\n\nOf course, Maitz's painting was done before Urth was written, so perhaps Wolfe liked it and wrote it in.\n\nI love how this detail adds texture to the time loop situation of Severian becoming the myth that inspired him. This would be a crucial aspect of the Conciliator iconography, because, lacking that, what other symbols mark him as different. With Christ, he might always look a bit different, but you've usually got a cross or a halo to identify him. While, I suspect Conciliator icons would potentially have halos, (black halos) this Fuligin cloak would identify him distinctly, while the artist's rendering of his face would vary as much as any Christ picture does.\n\nCripes, only Wolfe would take something that ripe and make it practically unnoticeable. \n\nneat.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-20T19:08:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Particolored Brocade", "in_reply_to": "<494D2CCD.1020604@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 09:35 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Particolored Brocade\n\nGood observation. Severian is the Black Sun and is probably depicted with a black halo, and it may be his own iconography he sees in the green book (\"ascetic pantocrators and hypostases with black halos and gemlike\nrobes\"), which I always suspected. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":::::::::::::::::::::\nExactly.\nI've been playing with black sun and black halo icons for that reason.\nwould be important to not give away too much if they were interstitial illustrations.\n:::::::::::::::::::::::::::" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also have wondered about Ymar. How and why did he start the Autarchy? Wouldn't the alzabo be needed for this, and thus, presumably, Father Inire? Why and when did Father Inire get involved with the Commonwealth? Were the death of Typhon and the appearance of the Conciliator a cause, or Ymar's just rule itself? Severian tells him, \" 'Ymar, someday you will become the ruler. You'll be the monarch, although I don't think you'll call yourself that. Try to rule for Urth, and not just in Urth's name as so many have. Rule justly, or at least as justly as circumstances permit.' \" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "::::::::::::::::::::::::\nYeah I wander about that too, and Ymar confuses The Trial a bit, in that Appian was a bit of a fraudulent set up. what does that say about Ymar's testing? Overeagerness?\n:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Guild may have already existed under Typhon, however. At least, an office existed that carried out torture for the monarch. But it uses a \"strange uniform\" rather than fuligin and may not use the term \"journeyman.\" (Severian is vague on that point.) They are clearly not military but another branch, but are closer to being military than in Severian's time: \"another journeyman with a vouge, looking almost like a soldier.\" So that's several points on which Severian created his own legend." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "::::::::::::::::::::;;\nThe circularity of myth here is what leads me to consider the timeloop paradox as intractable. There can't be a Severian who doesn't become New Sun and then Conciliator, because there most likely wouldn't have been a Guild to nurture him or a Conciliator to inspire him, and perhaps much of Civilization would have been different without Apu Punchau. Who knows though?\n::::::::::::::::::::::;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His face would undoubtedly be depicted unscarred and possibly young-looking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":::::::::::::::::::::::::;;\nand \"beaming\" I believe it was described.\n\n::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, Herena says, speaking of the southern ice, \"Great Erebus, who has established his kingdom there, will soon be driven before them, with all his fierce, pale warriors.\" So Erebus at least would not be able to survive ice, and the volcano must be dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:07:07 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: (urth) Particolored Brocade\nTo: urth at urth.net\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\n\n\n* * *\n\nI was toying with Conciliator iconography last night, trying to figure out how he would be portrayed. This was a big mystery for me on the first read. It dawned on me that he's wearing this Fuligin cloak with the particolored brocade most of the time he's doing the acts that make people think of him as Conciliator, so this would undoubtedly show up in the iconography of his followers. One of whom must be Ymar, though he wouldn't have seen the Fuligin cloak. It would seem that Ymar, in creating the Autarchy, infused his state with Conciliator/NewSun symbols (Phoenix Throne) and had the Jailers turned into The Guild, and honored them with the Fuligin cloaks of the Conciliator, though they apparently lack the lining. When the guard of the jailers is described, he has the carnificial sword, but no cloak is mentioned. That Ymar would give this honor to the Guild is not that surprising because it's where his own roots are.\n\nThere is also, of course, the beautiful metaphor of death and resurrection right there in that cloak alone, Fuligin out, Multicolored within. That's one thing I really like about Maitz's painting.\n\nOf course, Maitz's painting was done before Urth was written, so perhaps Wolfe liked it and wrote it in.\n\nI love how this detail adds texture to the time loop situation of Severian becoming the myth that inspired him. This would be a crucial aspect of the Conciliator iconography, because, lacking that, what other symbols mark him as different. With Christ, he might always look a bit different, but you've usually got a cross or a halo to identify him. While, I suspect Conciliator icons would potentially have halos, (black halos) this Fuligin cloak would identify him distinctly, while the artist's rendering of his face would vary as much as any Christ picture does.\n\nCripes, only Wolfe would take something that ripe and make it practically unnoticeable. \n\nneat.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081219-0, 12/19/2008\nTested on: 12/20/2008 12:35:11 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<606526.31292.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2008-12-20T19:30:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Particolored Brocade", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of time loops...a Spanish time travel movie I saw at a festival in New Zeland is out in wider release ( and showing here in the Bay Area)..\n\n\"Time Crimes\"\n\n\nRecommended!\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Sat, 12/20/08, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Particolored Brocade\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 11:08 AM\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 09:35 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Particolored Brocade\n\nGood observation. Severian is the Black Sun and is probably depicted with a\nblack halo, and it may be his own iconography he sees in the green book\n(\"ascetic pantocrators and hypostases with black halos and gemlike\nrobes\"), which I always suspected. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":::::::::::::::::::::\nExactly.\nI've been playing with black sun and black halo icons for that reason.\nwould be important to not give away too much if they were interstitial\nillustrations.\n:::::::::::::::::::::::::::" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also have wondered about Ymar. How and why did he start the Autarchy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wouldn't the alzabo be needed for this, and thus, presumably, Father Inire?\nWhy and when did Father Inire get involved with the Commonwealth? Were the death\nof Typhon and the appearance of the Conciliator a cause, or Ymar's just rule\nitself? Severian tells him, \" 'Ymar, someday you will become the ruler.\nYou'll be the monarch, although I don't think you'll call yourself\nthat. Try to rule for Urth, and not just in Urth's name as so many have.\nRule justly, or at least as justly as circumstances permit.' \" \n\n::::::::::::::::::::::::\nYeah I wander about that too, and Ymar confuses The Trial a bit, in that Appian\nwas a bit of a fraudulent set up. what does that say about Ymar's testing? \nOvereagerness?\n:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Guild may have already existed under Typhon, however. At least, an\noffice existed that carried out torture for the monarch. But it uses a\n\"strange uniform\" rather than fuligin and may not use the term\n\"journeyman.\" (Severian is vague on that point.) They are clearly not\nmilitary but another branch, but are closer to being military than in\nSeverian's time: \"another journeyman with a vouge, looking almost like\na soldier.\" So that's several points on which Severian created his own\nlegend." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "::::::::::::::::::::;;\nThe circularity of myth here is what leads me to consider the timeloop paradox\nas intractable. There can't be a Severian who doesn't become New Sun\nand then Conciliator, because there most likely wouldn't have been a Guild\nto nurture him or a Conciliator to inspire him, and perhaps much of Civilization\nwould have been different without Apu Punchau. Who knows though?\n::::::::::::::::::::::;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His face would undoubtedly be depicted unscarred and possibly\nyoung-looking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":::::::::::::::::::::::::;;\nand \"beaming\" I believe it was described.\n\n::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, Herena says, speaking of the southern ice, \"Great\nErebus, who has established his kingdom there, will soon be driven before them,\nwith all his fierce, pale warriors.\" So Erebus at least would not be able\nto survive ice, and the volcano must be dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:07:07 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: (urth) Particolored Brocade\nTo: urth at urth.net\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\n\n\n* * *\n\nI was toying with Conciliator iconography last night, trying to figure out\nhow he would be portrayed. This was a big mystery for me on the first read. It\ndawned on me that he's wearing this Fuligin cloak with the particolored\nbrocade most of the time he's doing the acts that make people think of him\nas Conciliator, so this would undoubtedly show up in the iconography of his\nfollowers. One of whom must be Ymar, though he wouldn't have seen the\nFuligin cloak. It would seem that Ymar, in creating the Autarchy, infused his\nstate with Conciliator/NewSun symbols (Phoenix Throne) and had the Jailers\nturned into The Guild, and honored them with the Fuligin cloaks of the\nConciliator, though they apparently lack the lining. When the guard of the\njailers is described, he has the carnificial sword, but no cloak is mentioned. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That Ymar would give this honor to the Guild is not that surprising because\nit's where his own roots are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is also, of course, the beautiful metaphor of death and resurrection\nright there in that cloak alone, Fuligin out, Multicolored within. That's\none thing I really like about Maitz's painting.\n\nOf course, Maitz's painting was done before Urth was written, so\nperhaps Wolfe liked it and wrote it in.\n\nI love how this detail adds texture to the time loop situation of Severian\nbecoming the myth that inspired him. This would be a crucial aspect of the\nConciliator iconography, because, lacking that, what other symbols mark him as\ndifferent. With Christ, he might always look a bit different, but you've\nusually got a cross or a halo to identify him. While, I suspect Conciliator\nicons would potentially have halos, (black halos) this Fuligin cloak would\nidentify him distinctly, while the artist's rendering of his face would vary\nas much as any Christ picture does.\n\nCripes, only Wolfe would take something that ripe and make it practically\nunnoticeable. \n\nneat.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081219-0, 12/19/2008\nTested on: 12/20/2008 12:35:11 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] } ] }