{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5289", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5289, "subject": "The argument for Intractability", "messages": 22, "voices": 8, "first": "2008-12-22T18:43:43+00:00", "last": "2008-12-29T23:34:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40812221043q34a5e87bk826153576b234c07@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-22T18:43:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't believe Wolfe does intractable time loops, whether in \"Free Live\nFree\" or in \"The Book of the New Sun.\" (I don't think \"Pirate Freedom\" is\nintractable either, though I haven't worked that one out as well).\n\nIntractable time loops imply no free will -- everything happens as it does\nbecause that's the way it has always happened. Chains of events that are\nbuilt up from multiple iterations, carrying back knowledge from future to\npast, can be done with free will intact. In \"The Book of the New Sun\" we\nhave an agency that can keep things on track -- the Hierogrammates and\nHierodules are time-traveling through history and fixing things. They can\ncreate place-holders like a Conciliator-like religion, the autarchy, and the\nGuild, if they deem them necessary as preconditions for the emergence of the\nNew Sun. Once a good candidate appears, they can fix up his life as much as\ndesired and splice him back into history to replace their earlier\nbootstraps.\n\nThe trickiest thing is his birth. Even if the Hierodules ensured the meeting\nof Ouen and Catherine under similar conditions, the odds are millions to one\nthat the exact genetic combination will be re-created. Thus it seems likely\nthat Catherine was sent back in time already pregnant with a cloned embryo\nof Sev1. (I believe Catherine is the woman we see under guard in UotNS on\nthe day of the deluge)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-22T18:50:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40812221043q34a5e87bk826153576b234c07@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it completely eradicates free will.\nIt's just that it's not linear. It's all happened already.\ninhabitants of the timeline just experience it moment by moment.\nI don't think \"the exact genetic combination\" is important. Severian's \nconsciousness is what matters, not his body's cells. The book makes \nthat point again and again.\n\nThis is the territory where it becomes useful to realize that at a \npoint it stops being a SCIENCE fiction book and is truly a \nMetaphysical Fictional Metaphor.\nThis is why that Paradox is intractable. it's almost a metaphysical \nprequalifier to be a paradox.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 22, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nI don't believe Wolfe does intractable time loops, whether in \"Free \nLive Free\" or in \"The Book of the New Sun.\" (I don't think \"Pirate \nFreedom\" is intractable either, though I haven't worked that one out \nas well).\n\nIntractable time loops imply no free will -- everything happens as \nit does because that's the way it has always happened. Chains of \nevents that are built up from multiple iterations, carrying back \nknowledge from future to past, can be done with free will intact. In \n\"The Book of the New Sun\" we have an agency that can keep things on \ntrack -- the Hierogrammates and Hierodules are time-traveling \nthrough history and fixing things. They can create place-holders \nlike a Conciliator-like religion, the autarchy, and the Guild, if \nthey deem them necessary as preconditions for the emergence of the \nNew Sun. Once a good candidate appears, they can fix up his life as \nmuch as desired and splice him back into history to replace their \nearlier bootstraps.\n\nThe trickiest thing is his birth. Even if the Hierodules ensured the \nmeeting of Ouen and Catherine under similar conditions, the odds are \nmillions to one that the exact genetic combination will be re- \ncreated. Thus it seems likely that Catherine was sent back in time \nalready pregnant with a cloned embryo of Sev1. (I believe Catherine \nis the woman we see under guard in UotNS on the day of the deluge).\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812221116o24787761k491691a43ae37cbf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-22T19:16:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I think we will forever bang up against a wall if we are looking at\nthis linearly, with certain players crawling up the string, and other\nplayers moving up and down the string to make it the string they want or\nneed.\n\nWhen Malrubius tells Severian Time is like an ocean, not like a river, there\nis a lot being said. Free will is not moot in a intractable scenario. The\ndevelopment of Sev's 'soul' for lack of a better word is absolutely needed,\nand is only possible because of the events of the book of the new sun,\nwhich, in part, he helped created based on his future as conciliator. The\nrefinement of his torturers soul is not a by-product of the process, it's an\nintimate part of it. I dunno. I think it's a trap to think lineraly. And\nI can't see any textual evidence for some sort of time traveling Catherine\nsent back to give birth to Severian with an engineered embryo. Although the\npart in Urth with the woman is an interesting paradox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI don't think it completely eradicates free will.\nIt's just that it's not linear. It's all happened already.\ninhabitants of the timeline just experience it moment by moment.\nI don't think \"the exact genetic combination\" is important. Severian's\nconsciousness is what matters, not his body's cells. The book makes that\npoint again and again.\n\nThis is the territory where it becomes useful to realize that at a point it\nstops being a SCIENCE fiction book and is truly a Metaphysical Fictional\nMetaphor.\nThis is why that Paradox is intractable. it's almost a metaphysical\nprequalifier to be a paradox.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\nOn Dec 22, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\n I don't believe Wolfe does intractable time loops, whether in \"Free Live\nFree\" or in \"The Book of the New Sun.\" (I don't think \"Pirate Freedom\" is\nintractable either, though I haven't worked that one out as well)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Intractable time loops imply no free will -- everything happens as it does\nbecause that's the way it has always happened. Chains of events that are\nbuilt up from multiple iterations, carrying back knowledge from future to\npast, can be done with free will intact. In \"The Book of the New Sun\" we\nhave an agency that can keep things on track -- the Hierogrammates and\nHierodules are time-traveling through history and fixing things. They can\ncreate place-holders like a Conciliator-like religion, the autarchy, and the\nGuild, if they deem them necessary as preconditions for the emergence of the\nNew Sun. Once a good candidate appears, they can fix up his life as much as\ndesired and splice him back into history to replace their earlier\nbootstraps.\n\nThe trickiest thing is his birth. Even if the Hierodules ensured the\nmeeting of Ouen and Catherine under similar conditions, the odds are\nmillions to one that the exact genetic combination will be re-created. Thus\nit seems likely that Catherine was sent back in time already pregnant with a\ncloned embryo of Sev1. (I believe Catherine is the woman we see under guard\nin UotNS on the day of the deluge).\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<973085.82301.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-22T22:39:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812221116o24787761k491691a43ae37cbf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The time travel question that you guys have been hashing out seems to me important to figure out when trying to interpret the books. And I think the question of Sev's \"will\" is actually important. Are we getting a story of a bad guy trying to become good? (Free will) Or are we getting a story of a guy learning that his personal will is better left to higher powers? (Omniscient, omnipotent God/gods/powers/etc.)\n\nI'm personally with Jordon on this. The \"time is like an ocean\" idea allows you take both of the above ideas at once and have them overlap. You have the linearity of Sev's experience, but you also have the meta-temporal perspective in which the Hierodules can manipulate things (for the Increate?).\n\nThere's still the bigger question here for me of whether this is all a holy process or just a sham of a holy process. I'm reminded of one of the story's in the Pelerines' tent (from the soldier whose name escapes me) about the proud cock. The angel comes down and says he's going to punish the cock for being too proud. But it turns out that he's wrong, and the story ends with the angel admitting that, although he's closer to the Increate than the cock, he's still infinitely distant and can only guess at His will.\n\nIf the Hierodules are like the angel, how \"holy\" are their designs in the end?\n\n\n\n\n\nYeah, I think we will forever bang up against a wall if we are looking at this linearly, with certain players crawling up the string, and other players moving up and down the string to make it the string they want or need.\n\nWhen Malrubius tells Severian Time is like an ocean, not like a river, there is a lot being said. Free will is not moot in a intractable scenario. The development of Sev's 'soul' for lack of a better word is absolutely needed, and is only possible because of the events of the book of the new sun, which, in part, he helped created based on his future as conciliator. The refinement of his torturers soul is not a by-product of the process, it's an intimate part of it. I dunno. I think it's a trap to think lineraly. And I can't see any textual evidence for some sort of time traveling Catherine sent back to give birth to Severian with an engineered embryo. Although the part in Urth with the woman is an interesting paradox.\n\n\nOn Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nI don't think it completely eradicates free will.\nIt's just that it's not linear. It's all happened already.\ninhabitants of the timeline just experience it moment by moment.\nI don't think \"the exact genetic combination\" is important. Severian's consciousness is what matters, not his body's cells. The book makes that point again and again.\n\nThis is the territory where it becomes useful to realize that at a point it stops being a SCIENCE fiction book and is truly a Metaphysical Fictional Metaphor.\nThis is why that Paradox is intractable. it's almost a metaphysical prequalifier to be a paradox.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\nOn Dec 22, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\n\nI don't believe Wolfe does intractable time loops, whether in \"Free Live Free\" or in \"The Book of the New Sun.\" (I don't think \"Pirate Freedom\" is intractable either, though I haven't worked that one out as well).\n\nIntractable time loops imply no free will -- everything happens as it does because that's the way it has always happened. Chains of events that are built up from multiple iterations, carrying back knowledge from future to past, can be done with free will intact. In \"The Book of the New Sun\" we have an agency that can keep things on track -- the Hierogrammates and Hierodules are time-traveling through history and fixing things. They can create place-holders like a Conciliator-like religion, the autarchy, and the Guild, if they deem them necessary as preconditions for the emergence of the New Sun. Once a good candidate appears, they can fix up his life as much as desired and splice him back into history to replace their earlier bootstraps.\n\nThe trickiest thing is his birth. Even if the Hierodules ensured the meeting of Ouen and Catherine under similar conditions, the odds are millions to one that the exact genetic combination will be re-created. Thus it seems likely that Catherine was sent back in time already pregnant with a cloned embryo of Sev1. (I believe Catherine is the woman we see under guard in UotNS on the day of the deluge)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710812221534tdb8047fx94d856a85aa3a1b5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-22T23:34:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<973085.82301.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, craig, I hear ya. I find a lot of resonance in the Cock and Angel\nstory. One of the things I keep coming back to is that while there may\nindeed be some 'horizontal level' manipulation going on with the Hierodules,\nthere is a sense I get that it doesn't matter whether they know if they are\ndoing the will of the Increate or not: The will of the Increate will be\ndone. I don't know why, but two things stick out to me: One, that Sev\nturns water into wine. There is no reason for this to happen. It doesn't\nfit the other miracles, and it doesn't fit into the scheme of what the\nHierodules need to accomplish, as far as I can tell. Yet, it is an echo of\na miracle performed by a True agent of the Increate, Jesus. As if the\nresonance of the role of Logos is manifested through Severian. It could\njust be a 'literary' device on Wolfe's part, but I don't think that's true.\n\nAlso, when the Wonder Triples Ossipago, Fumulimus and Barbatus metion to Sev\nthat even Tzadkiel doesn't posses the power that Sev used to reshape Declan,\nor physically raise of the dead as something other than an Aquestor or\nEdiolon. Sev has become, in a sense, more than the Hierogrammates.\nSomething in this speaks to the will of the Increate coming through Sev in\nspite of/because of the intervention of the Hierogrammates.\n\nTwo people get together and fuck. A child is born. That child grows up to\nbe the savior of mankind, in a fashion. Is the will of the increate\ninvolved in the meeting of those two people, or was it random chance? What\nif there were forces manipulating those two people so they would meet, would\nthose doing the manipulation be doing the will of the increate? What if the\npeople doing the manipulation were setting up, on a cosmic scale, the\ncorrelation of the two people fucking and making a child (i.e., the\nHierogramatte manipulation is all about engenerding the next generation of\nHiero's who will in turn create the next generation of Hierogrammates,\netc...it is a Macrocosmic parallel to two people meeting and having a baby,\njust on a much much larger scale). Somewhere, the question of scale has to\nbe forgotten, and one has to just wonder wether the increate is at all\ninvovled in the universe of Severian (which the Long Sun books seem to\nanswer to some degree), or whether he is not. If he is, then it's hard not\nto see that 'his will' be done through Severian and the Hierodules, and that\nit doesn't matter, in a sense, whether the Hierodules know they are doing\nthe will of the Increate or not.\n\nAnd I see the idea of Severian learing to give his obedience to the\n'highest' power not one of giving into the manipulation of the Hierdoules,\nas some seem to think, but rather a discovery of the singular man's proper\nrelationship to God (in a catholic or at least Christian sense), as opposed\nto Baldanders who wants to storm the gates of heaven. In the end, even\nBaldanders serves the will of the increate, as by destroying the claw, he\nsets up Severian to discover that its power is within him all along.\n\nThere is much more to this...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nThe time travel question that you guys have been hashing out seems to me\nimportant to figure out when trying to interpret the books. And I think the\nquestion of Sev's \"will\" is actually important. Are we getting a story of a\nbad guy trying to become good? (Free will) Or are we getting a story of a\nguy learning that his personal will is better left to higher powers?\n(Omniscient, omnipotent God/gods/powers/etc.)\n\nI'm personally with Jordon on this. The \"time is like an ocean\" idea allows\nyou take both of the above ideas at once and have them overlap. You have the\nlinearity of Sev's experience, but you also have the meta-temporal\nperspective in which the Hierodules can manipulate things (for the\nIncreate?).\n\nThere's still the bigger question here for me of whether this is all a holy\nprocess or just a sham of a holy process. I'm reminded of one of the story's\nin the Pelerines' tent (from the soldier whose name escapes me) about the\nproud cock. The angel comes down and says he's going to punish the cock for\nbeing too proud. But it turns out that he's wrong, and the story ends with\nthe angel admitting that, although he's closer to the Increate than the\ncock, he's still infinitely distant and can only guess at His will.\n\nIf the Hierodules are like the angel, how \"holy\" are their designs in the\nend?\n\n------------------------------\n*From:* Jordon Flato \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Monday, December 22, 2008 1:16:44 PM\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) The argument for Intractability\n\nYeah, I think we will forever bang up against a wall if we are looking at\nthis linearly, with certain players crawling up the string, and other\nplayers moving up and down the string to make it the string they want or\nneed.\n\nWhen Malrubius tells Severian Time is like an ocean, not like a river,\nthere is a lot being said. Free will is not moot in a intractable\nscenario. The development of Sev's 'soul' for lack of a better word is\nabsolutely needed, and is only possible because of the events of the book of\nthe new sun, which, in part, he helped created based on his future as\nconciliator. The refinement of his torturers soul is not a by-product of\nthe process, it's an intimate part of it. I dunno. I think it's a trap to\nthink lineraly. And I can't see any textual evidence for some sort of time\ntraveling Catherine sent back to give birth to Severian with an engineered\nembryo. Although the part in Urth with the woman is an interesting paradox.\n\nOn Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think it completely eradicates free will.\nIt's just that it's not linear. It's all happened already.\ninhabitants of the timeline just experience it moment by moment.\nI don't think \"the exact genetic combination\" is important. Severian's\nconsciousness is what matters, not his body's cells. The book makes that\npoint again and again.\n\nThis is the territory where it becomes useful to realize that at a point\nit stops being a SCIENCE fiction book and is truly a Metaphysical Fictional\nMetaphor.\nThis is why that Paradox is intractable. it's almost a metaphysical\nprequalifier to be a paradox.\n\n~witz\n\n\n\n\nOn Dec 22, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\n I don't believe Wolfe does intractable time loops, whether in \"Free Live\nFree\" or in \"The Book of the New Sun.\" (I don't think \"Pirate Freedom\" is\nintractable either, though I haven't worked that one out as well)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Intractable time loops imply no free will -- everything happens as it\ndoes because that's the way it has always happened. Chains of events that\nare built up from multiple iterations, carrying back knowledge from future\nto past, can be done with free will intact. In \"The Book of the New Sun\" we\nhave an agency that can keep things on track -- the Hierogrammates and\nHierodules are time-traveling through history and fixing things. They can\ncreate place-holders like a Conciliator-like religion, the autarchy, and the\nGuild, if they deem them necessary as preconditions for the emergence of the\nNew Sun. Once a good candidate appears, they can fix up his life as much as\ndesired and splice him back into history to replace their earlier\nbootstraps.\n\nThe trickiest thing is his birth. Even if the Hierodules ensured the\nmeeting of Ouen and Catherine under similar conditions, the odds are\nmillions to one that the exact genetic combination will be re-created. Thus\nit seems likely that Catherine was sent back in time already pregnant with a\ncloned embryo of Sev1. (I believe Catherine is the woman we see under guard\nin UotNS on the day of the deluge).\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49504D42.9020703@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-23T02:30:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<273409710812221534tdb8047fx94d856a85aa3a1b5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt the question of free will vs intervention (by whoever) is entirely binary, however. I'd guess a more important point is that neither can be dismissed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:39:22 -0800 (PST)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) The argument for Intractability\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <973085.82301.qm at web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nThe time travel question that you guys have been hashing out seems to me important to figure out when trying to interpret the books. And I think the question of Sev's \"will\" is actually important. Are we getting a story of a bad guy trying to become good? (Free will) Or are we getting a story of a guy learning that his personal will is better left to higher powers? (Omniscient, omnipotent God/gods/powers/etc.)\n\nI'm personally with Jordon on this. The \"time is like an ocean\" idea allows you take both of the above ideas at once and have them overlap. You have the linearity of Sev's experience, but you also have the meta-temporal perspective in which the Hierodules can manipulate things (for the Increate?).\n\nThere's still the bigger question here for me of whether this is all a holy process or just a sham of a holy process. I'm reminded of one of the story's in the Pelerines' tent (from the soldier whose name escapes me) about the proud cock. The angel comes down and says he's going to punish the cock for being too proud. But it turns out that he's wrong, and the story ends with the angel admitting that, although he's closer to the Increate than the cock, he's still infinitely distant and can only guess at His will.\n\nIf the Hierodules are like the angel, how \"holy\" are their designs in the end?\n\n\n\n\n________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-23T17:39:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<49504D42.9020703@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, I really don't think it's an either-or situation regarding Free Will and Intervention. I have a hard time putting it into words, but it doesn't cause any schism for me. It is hard to comprehend time from an \"It's all happened already\" perspective without feeling like we're just going through some motions. I liken it to a book. it's already finished, yet we have to read our way through it.\n\nThat being said, I'm not trying to make an ironclad argument that it \"MUST\" be intractable, just that, from what's given in the text, I can't imagine it any other way, and it does seem to work well metaphorically.\n\nI just realized, given the scene in Urth with the Chilliarch and the Smilodon, and Severian's mercy to the Chilliarch and friendliness with the Smilodon would SURELY have ended up in the Conciliator myth. As Christ is sometimes represented as a lion, or as various sun gods are posed with a Lion, the Conciliator would probably be sometimes pictured with the smilodon.\ntoo cool. \n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Monday, December 22, 2008 06:30 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The argument for Intractability\n\nI doubt the question of free will vs intervention (by whoever) is entirely binary, however. I'd guess a more important point is that neither can be dismissed. \n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:39:22 -0800 (PST)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) The argument for Intractability\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <973085.82301.qm at web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nThe time travel question that you guys have been hashing out seems to me important to figure out when trying to interpret the books. And I think the question of Sev's \"will\" is actually important. Are we getting a story of a bad guy trying to become good? (Free will) Or are we getting a story of a guy learning that his personal will is better left to higher powers? (Omniscient, omnipotent God/gods/powers/etc.)\n\nI'm personally with Jordon on this. The \"time is like an ocean\" idea allows you take both of the above ideas at once and have them overlap. You have the linearity of Sev's experience, but you also have the meta-temporal perspective in which the Hierodules can manipulate things (for the Increate?).\n\nThere's still the bigger question here for me of whether this is all a holy process or just a sham of a holy process. I'm reminded of one of the story's in the Pelerines' tent (from the soldier whose name escapes me) about the proud cock. The angel comes down and says he's going to punish the cock for being too proud. But it turns out that he's wrong, and the story ends with the angel admitting that, although he's closer to the Increate than the cock, he's still infinitely distant and can only guess at His will.\n\nIf the Hierodules are like the angel, how \"holy\" are their designs in the end?\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081222-0, 12/22/2008\nTested on: 12/22/2008 9:30:27 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495173E5.4000003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-23T23:27:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thematically, each is meaningless without the other. \n\nYes, there's a lot of material to mine there. You could illustrate these three series for the rest of your life---make a career of it, as people have done with Tolkien!\n\nIncidentally, I was reading the messages about AEG and realized that Lancelot is the Arthurian hero Severian reminds me of. He has dealing with water spirits, he is a toy of otherworldly and higher powers, and he returns after a long absence with the faerie folk. Time with the fairies often runs funny. And Lancelot heals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:39:51 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The argument for Intractability" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-23T23:57:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<495173E5.4000003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, there's a lot of material to mine there. You could illustrate these three series for the rest of your life---make a career of it, as people have done with Tolkien!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Holy Cow, my head is reeling with ideas right now. I've got a decent amount of crude sketching done, though nowhere as much as I'd like. I hope to get some drawing done over next week, which I'm taking off. The ideas I've already had will take years to work out. I was drawing what will not be a plot illustration, but an esoteric exegesis illustration, yesterday when I had the insight I wrote in \"The Significance of Apu Punchau\" post I wrote today.\nCurrently, I'm toying with conciliator imagery, and trying to flesh out what some of that might have looked like. Which is essentially trying to illustrate Canog's BotNS, rather than Severian's BotNS.\n\nthere is a daunting amount of territory to cover, but I like to sink my teeth into huge projects. Plus I need to map out a project and chip away at it. If I come to my drawing board after a workday, with no plan, I end up with a mess of abstract expressionism. If I have an agenda, I can apply myself with my odd chances to work.\n\nI have to admit I'm a sucker for Tolkien illustrations. There is so much great stuff out there. I just bought an old used Illustrated Middle Earth Encyclopedia. Great stuff in there. I also really love Tolkien's own illustrations for The Hobbit. I was unaware that he drew until seeing those a few weeks ago. It would be great to have a gig like Alan Lee.\n\n/nuff about me.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4951AFAE.9080406@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-24T03:42:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nI don't think it completely eradicates free will.\nIt's just that it's not linear. It's all happened already." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is correct, as far as we know. Napoleon had free will, despite the \nexistence of records in our time that detail every major and many minor \ndecisions he made. However not all the circumstances of those decisions \nare known, and the presence of a time traveler or indirect meddling \ncould change the circumstances, so that Napoleon could very well deviate \nfrom the historical Napoleon's choices." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "inhabitants of the timeline just experience it moment by moment.\nI don't think \"the exact genetic combination\" is important. Severian's \nconsciousness is what matters, not his body's cells. The book makes that \npoint again and again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A female Severian (50% likelihood) would not be raised as a torturer, \nand would thus have a very different mentality." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49522340.2070803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-24T11:55:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<4951AFAE.9080406@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nA female Severian (50% likelihood) would not be raised as a torturer, \nand would thus have a very different mentality.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm glad that someone caught my point. In general, time-travelers would \nhave to be very careful about changing the conception circumstances of \nanyone important. I don't think Sev's conception could be left to chance \n(it had to happen by chance the first time, but once it did...)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-24T16:45:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<49522340.2070803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson [mailto:jwilson at io.com]\nSent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 07:42 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) The argument for Intractability\n\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think it completely eradicates free will.\nIt's just that it's not linear. It's all happened already." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is correct, as far as we know. Napoleon had free will, despite the \nexistence of records in our time that detail every major and many minor \ndecisions he made. However not all the circumstances of those decisions \nare known, and the presence of a time traveler or indirect meddling \ncould change the circumstances, so that Napoleon could very well deviate \nfrom the historical Napoleon's choices." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "inhabitants of the timeline just experience it moment by moment.\nI don't think \"the exact genetic combination\" is important. Severian's \nconsciousness is what matters, not his body's cells. The book makes that \npoint again and again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A female Severian (50% likelihood) would not be raised as a torturer, \nand would thus have a very different mentality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read Severian as some sort of cosmic principle. some sort of deity.\nAs such, any manifestation of him would be appropriate to him.\nbut hey, that's just my whacked out take." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49526ACC.1010807@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-24T17:01:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<49522340.2070803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A female Severian (50% likelihood) would not be raised as a torturer, \nand would thus have a very different mentality.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm glad that someone caught my point. In general, time-travelers would \nhave to be very careful about changing the conception circumstances of \nanyone important. I don't think Sev's conception could be left to chance \n(it had to happen by chance the first time, but once it did...)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, the author may not have subscribed to the chaotic \nmodel of parallel universes, or of human development. The Corridors of \nTime might be organized in some way that the closest parallels are \ngrouped together and more readily accessible to time travelling meddlers \nthan others. Likewise, there could be some dogma in play like the Well \nof Souls that implies some part of Severian's persona exists \nindependently of his fleshy chromosomal crapshoot." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-24T17:21:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<49526ACC.1010807@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Likewise, there could be some dogma in play like the Well " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of Souls that implies some part of Severian's persona exists \nindependently of his fleshy chromosomal crapshoot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is what I'm saying.\nSeverian's bodies come and go, but Severian is constant.\nSeverian is a consciousness in a body (as we all are) but he goes through a bunch of bodies.\nRe-Read everything after The Trial in Urth. From Leaving Yesod, to the flooding of Urth, he realizes that his consciousness is in the star, and his body is a puppet. But what kind of stars have consciousness? That's not a question that science can answer. I can think of one way that resolves it while being true to the plot and to the symbology. His Consciousness is wearing a star like it wears a fleshy body. We're then left with his spirit/consciousness, which gets back to the sort of idea I've been saying all along, that he is a Deity that incarnates in various times as a Sun God.\n\nI think Deity is the only level of Being mentioned in the New Sun Series that could fit this bill. I'm told that God is posited as a literal fact in Long Sun, so I think, at this level, people have to sort of let go of the idea that this story is \"merely\" Hiero manipulation. It seems pretty clear that God(s) exist in the framework of the story.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49527777.5030309@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-24T17:55:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nflooding of Urth, he realizes that his consciousness is in the star, and\nhis body is a puppet. But what kind of stars have consciousness? That's\nnot a question that science can answer. I can think of one way that\nresolves it while being true to the plot and to the symbology. His\nConsciousness is wearing a star like it wears a fleshy body. We're then\nleft with his spirit/consciousness, which gets back to the sort of idea\nI've been saying all along, that he is a Deity that incarnates in\nvarious times as a Sun God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a problem in that deities by definition transcend the physical \nworld, but Sev's first-person narrative remains largely linear and \ndivided from that of \"other Severians\" from which he is separated in \nspace and time, both Urthly and Yesodi time. A certain amount of this \nseparation has to be in order for his mortal incarnations to be valid, \nbut there's no enduring union of mortal and divine identities, just a \nfew short flashes of insight of the former into the nature of the \nlatter. This doesn't make Severian a deity any more than a really good \nreception at Karaoke makes me Elvis, just someone who for a moment can \nexperience a tiny piece of Elvishood." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-24T18:15:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<49527777.5030309@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A certain amount of this \nseparation has to be in order for his mortal incarnations to be valid, \nbut there's no enduring union of mortal and divine identities, just a \nfew short flashes of insight of the former into the nature of the \nlatter. This doesn't make Severian a deity any more than a really good \nreception at Karaoke makes me Elvis, just someone who for a moment can \nexperience a tiny piece of Elvishood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDoes this perhaps depend on your definition of a deity? Was/is Jesus a deity?\nSeems to me he had flashes of it, e.g.predicting his own death. But he had\nmostly human moments, growing up, eating, socializing, getting angry at the \nmoney changers and at the end wondering why his Father had forsaken him.\n \nDeity or not, I've felt Severian is meant to be the Urth analog of Earth's \nJesus. He is darker, more sinful, not as bright as Jesus..but the same might\nbe said comparing all of Urth to Earth.\n \n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-24T18:28:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson writes:\nThere's a problem in that deities by definition transcend the physical\nworld, but Sev's first-person narrative remains largely linear and\ndivided from that of \"other Severians\" from which he is separated in\nspace and time, both Urthly and Yesodi time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A certain amount of this \nseparation has to be in order for his mortal incarnations to be valid, \nbut there's no enduring union of mortal and divine identities, just a \nfew short flashes of insight of the former into the nature of the \nlatter. This doesn't make Severian a deity any more than a really good \nreception at Karaoke makes me Elvis, just someone who for a moment can \nexperience a tiny piece of Elvishood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does this perhaps depend on your definition of a deity? Was/is Jesus a deity?\nSeems to me he had flashes of it, e.g.predicting his own death. But he had\nmostly human moments, growing up, eating, socializing, getting angry at the \nmoney changers and at the end wondering why his Father had forsaken him.\n\nDeity or not, I've felt Severian is meant to be the Urth analog of Earth's \nJesus. He is darker, more sinful, not as bright as Jesus..but the same might\nbe said comparing all of Urth to Earth.\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with you bsharp.\nI don't really follow your reasoning Jeff.\nHow do you account for his consciousness residing in a star?\nor the power of a freaking star raising the dead, healing tumors, etc, etc.\nThere is no rational explanation for that, based on science and logic, that I can imagine explaining that. anyone?\nIt seems a completely obvious metaphor. Severian's body is a puppet, and his consciousness is a \"heavenly body\"\n\nI don't understand this line \"Sev's first-person narrative remains largely linear and divided from that of \"other Severians\" from which he is separated in space and time\"\nI suppose you mean Apu Punchau. That's the only instance where there are two conscious Severians. both are eidolons. There can be multiple instances of the same eidolon. Mold and molded.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49530FA1.7070405@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-25T04:44:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nJeff Wilson writes:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A certain amount of this \nseparation has to be in order for his mortal incarnations to be valid, \nbut there's no enduring union of mortal and divine identities, just a \nfew short flashes of insight of the former into the nature of the \nlatter. This doesn't make Severian a deity any more than a really good \nreception at Karaoke makes me Elvis, just someone who for a moment can \nexperience a tiny piece of Elvishood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nDoes this perhaps depend on your definition of a deity? Was/is Jesus a deity?\nSeems to me he had flashes of it, e.g.predicting his own death. But he had\nmostly human moments, growing up, eating, socializing, getting angry at the \nmoney changers and at the end wondering why his Father had forsaken him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, however Jesus did have/has enduring union with the divine, \npost-Ascension. Severian seems to *lose* union with the divine, taking \nup once again mortal habits like sleeping in his bower on Ushas." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49531562.8070905@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-25T05:08:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm with you bsharp.\nI don't really follow your reasoning Jeff.\nHow do you account for his consciousness residing in a star?\nor the power of a freaking star raising the dead, healing tumors, etc, etc.\nThere is no rational explanation for that, based on science and logic, that I can imagine explaining that. anyone?\nIt seems a completely obvious metaphor. Severian's body is a puppet, and his consciousness is a \"heavenly body\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The link between his body and the power of the White Fountain is blocked \n on at least one occasion but his point of awareness remains in his \nbody, puzzled about why the miracle is not working this time. He might \n*feel* his consciousness is inside a star, but in that case who is \nmaking his body walk and talk until the link is restored? Is this some \nkind of cut-rate mechanistic divinity where the avatar needs to find a \nplace with more bars before the high-bandwidth miracles are available?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't understand this line \"Sev's first-person narrative remains largely linear and divided from that of \"other Severians\" from which he is separated in space and time\"\nI suppose you mean Apu Punchau. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I mean Severian muses about \"other Severians\" that he has deduced \npreceeded him in narrative time, but overlapped in calendar time. If he \nwere divine, why would he not know these parts of himself with more \ncertainty?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495392A4.30303@foisdin.com>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Dubbeld", "address": "andy at foisdin.com" }, "date": "2008-12-25T14:03:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<49530FA1.7070405@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nRight, however Jesus did have/has enduring union with the divine, \npost-Ascension. Severian seems to *lose* union with the divine, taking \nup once again mortal habits like sleeping in his bower on Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At very least, he seems to have retained his ability to travel to different periods, etc.\n\nI'm halfway through a re-read of Urth: from memory, I got the impression that he lost his communion with the divine by the end, but he writes as if he still has the ability to go anywhere / do anything.\n\ni.e. revisiting the inn with the resurrected dead man, and fancying that he is three or four of the people who aided him in the night." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4953C0F4.7000208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-25T17:20:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<495392A4.30303@foisdin.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Dubbeld wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Right, however Jesus did have/has enduring union with the divine, \npost-Ascension. Severian seems to *lose* union with the divine, taking \nup once again mortal habits like sleeping in his bower on Ushas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At very least, he seems to have retained his ability to travel to \ndifferent periods, etc.\n\nI'm halfway through a re-read of Urth: from memory, I got the impression \nthat he lost his communion with the divine by the end, but he writes as \nif he still has the ability to go anywhere / do anything.\n\ni.e. revisiting the inn with the resurrected dead man, and fancying that \nhe is three or four of the people who aided him in the night." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would conflict with the duplicate implosion problem, wouldn't it?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49595E89.1060707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-29T23:34:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The argument for Intractability", "in_reply_to": "<4953C0F4.7000208@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is that point in the story where Severian heals (I forget whom he heals, perhaps Declan) and he tells us very precisely what it is like to cram one's consciousness into a human mind when one is a god. I think it's in New Sun ...\n\nI like the idea of a star as a body. At any rate, the body of Severian is indeed hardly divine, nor is his mind. That's the point. The god who inhabits him (Severian, not Severian's body) IS divine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:55:03 -0600\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The argument for Intractability\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <49527777.5030309 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "flooding of Urth, he realizes that his consciousness is in the star, and\nhis body is a puppet. But what kind of stars have consciousness? That's\nnot a question that science can answer. I can think of one way that\nresolves it while being true to the plot and to the symbology. His\nConsciousness is wearing a star like it wears a fleshy body. We're then\nleft with his spirit/consciousness, which gets back to the sort of idea\nI've been saying all along, that he is a Deity that incarnates in\nvarious times as a Sun God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThere's a problem in that deities by definition transcend the physical \nworld, but Sev's first-person narrative remains largely linear and \ndivided from that of \"other Severians\" from which he is separated in \nspace and time, both Urthly and Yesodi time. A certain amount of this \nseparation has to be in order for his mortal incarnations to be valid, \nbut there's no enduring union of mortal and divine identities, just a \nfew short flashes of insight of the former into the nature of the \nlatter. This doesn't make Severian a deity any more than a really good \nreception at Karaoke makes me Elvis, just someone who for a moment can \nexperience a tiny piece of Elvishood.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------" } ] } ] }