{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5290", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5290, "subject": "The significance of Apu Punchau", "messages": 40, "voices": 8, "first": "2008-12-23T22:59:38+00:00", "last": "2009-01-01T02:39:04+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-23T22:59:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The significance of Apu Punchau is a mystery to me. I find it hard to believe that he's related to the Commonwealth state religion. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Apu-Punchau is related to the Commonwealth state religion. If that's coming from my post, I meant the Conciliator influenced the state religion.\n\n\nThere are two ways I find Apu Punchau significant in the symbology of the Urth Cycle. \n\n\nPlotwise, Apu Punchau is a sun god from ancient prehistory of Urth. Of Course, the name comes from the Incan \"Apu Punchau\", (aka \"Inti\"), \"Head of Day\" or \"Leader of Day\". He is a Sun God. He is The Sun. \n\n\nOn one hand, very simply, if this story is a parody or allegory for a Solar Redeemer, like Christ, or like the other Sun Gods, then that Severian is Apu Punchau & the Conciliator & the New Sun speaks to the idea that the various incarnations of Solar Deities are incarnating the same Being. One consciousness is literally every Solar God mentioned in the microcosm of the book. That works fairly well at a basic plot level, I suppose. That it maps to an Earth culture's Ancient Sun God is probably a metanarative device to indicate this. Of course, it speaks interestingly to the notion that Christ is analogue to the other solar gods prior to him.\n\nOn the other hand, and, to my mind, more interestingly, Apu Punchau can be read as a symbol of the Old Sun. The cyclicality of time and the reemergence of previous patterns in new creations is key to understanding this somewhat mystic/mythic or psychological reading.\n\nThe sun has began to die in the Age of the Monarch, so it's probably safe to assume that the sun is not dying in the Age of Myth, so Apu Punchau is a Sun God of the current sun, which is, in Severian's time, The Old Sun. When Severian, The New Sun, wrestles and cancels out Apu Punchau, it is a symbolic \"killing of the father\" though it is totally unconscious and subliminal. New Sun cancels out the existence of the Old Sun. Great stuff.\n\nYET, As the Man-To-Be must \"kill the father,\" so the Man \"becomes the father\" as his life progresses. Of course, Severian \"becomes\" Apu Punchau. Though plotwise, Severian is NOT the Old Sun, as Apu Punchau, he is symbolic of the Old Sun (mostly due to the autocthons superstitions). He literally becomes the Old Sun for prehistory, before he gives birth to the New Sun. Through a loop in time, he \"becomes the father\"\n\nThe twist is that AFTER he is the New Sun, he will go forward again to Ushas, where he becomes the Sleeper God Awakened, where, one assumes, given the cyclicality, the New Sun will eventually become the Old Sun. (No Suns were ever swapped with the change, just that the black hole was replaced with the white fountain, and the sun given new life). So, as The Sleeper God, it's likely that he'd be a Solar Godling to Ushas, where he would doubltess teach them what wisdom he could, practical and spiritual, and in that role, he would be a New Apu Punchau. I don't believe it mentions the Sleeper having any solar symbology, so that might be a stretch, but the practical role is probably the same.\n\n\nI've found Apu Punchau to be one of the most confounding elements to understand, but since having this double insight, I feel like Apu Punchau really ties a nice ribbon on this present.\n\n\nHappy Christmas y'all.\nMay the Sun be reborn.\n\n~SonOfWitz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4951B2D1.3040408@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-24T03:56:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nPlotwise, Apu Punchau is a sun god from ancient prehistory of Urth.\nOf Course, the name comes from the Incan \"Apu Punchau\", (aka \"Inti\"),\n\"Head of Day\" or \"Leader of Day\". He is a Sun God. He is The Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Apu\" is a title, meaning both god and mountain, and each Incan god has \nan associated Andean peak, but oddly Severian fails to have any sort of \npositive connection to a mountain that I recall." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4952409F.7030903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-24T14:01:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<4951B2D1.3040408@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz:\n\nSo as far as plot is concerned, Apu Punchau is likely to be way in OUR past. It makes sense he would be the Inca sun god because of proximity, although really he should be ALL sun gods, which would make him very busy. (Like Santa Claus will be tonight.)\n\nAnd if it's true that AP has no other plot role outside the Stone Town episode, then he is best understood symbolically, as you say: he is the Old Sun and just another incarnation or emanation of the Eternal. And that's why he's in TUotNS.\n\nYou'd think the various emanations would not need to \"be\" one another, so it is geographical proximity that leads to their merging. Had Severian been landed in Persia and bumped into Ahura Mazda, presumably he would have caused a proximity explosion then, and had he then run back to Zarathustra's time, he would be Ahura Mazda. Except the Persians burned or chopped up their dead, so that might not have worked out so well.\n\n\n**********************************\n\nPlotwise, Apu Punchau is a sun god from ancient prehistory of Urth. Of Course, the name comes from the Incan \"Apu Punchau\", (aka \"Inti\"), \"Head of Day\" or \"Leader of Day\". He is a Sun God. He is The Sun. \n\n\nOn one hand, very simply, if this story is a parody or allegory for a Solar Redeemer, like Christ, or like the other Sun Gods, then that Severian is Apu Punchau & the Conciliator & the New Sun speaks to the idea that the various incarnations of Solar Deities are incarnating the same Being. One consciousness is literally every Solar God mentioned in the microcosm of the book. That works fairly well at a basic plot level, I suppose. That it maps to an Earth culture's Ancient Sun God is probably a metanarative device to indicate this. Of course, it speaks interestingly to the notion that Christ is analogue to the other solar gods prior to him." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-24T16:50:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<4952409F.7030903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha!. David, you got me laughing out loud. \nI'm totally with you on all that.\nhe probably is Santa Claus too. :D\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz:\n\nSo as far as plot is concerned, Apu Punchau is likely to be way in OUR past. It makes sense he would be the Inca sun god because of proximity, although really he should be ALL sun gods, which would make him very busy. (Like Santa Claus will be tonight.)\n\nAnd if it's true that AP has no other plot role outside the Stone Town episode, then he is best understood symbolically, as you say: he is the Old Sun and just another incarnation or emanation of the Eternal. And that's why he's in TUotNS.\n\nYou'd think the various emanations would not need to \"be\" one another, so it is geographical proximity that leads to their merging. Had Severian been landed in Persia and bumped into Ahura Mazda, presumably he would have caused a proximity explosion then, and had he then run back to Zarathustra's time, he would be Ahura Mazda. Except the Persians burned or chopped up their dead, so that might not have worked out so well.\n\n\n**********************************\n\nPlotwise, Apu Punchau is a sun god from ancient prehistory of Urth. Of Course, the name comes from the Incan \"Apu Punchau\", (aka \"Inti\"), \"Head of Day\" or \"Leader of Day\". He is a Sun God. He is The Sun. \n\n\nOn one hand, very simply, if this story is a parody or allegory for a Solar Redeemer, like Christ, or like the other Sun Gods, then that Severian is Apu Punchau & the Conciliator & the New Sun speaks to the idea that the various incarnations of Solar Deities are incarnating the same Being. One consciousness is literally every Solar God mentioned in the microcosm of the book. That works fairly well at a basic plot level, I suppose. That it maps to an Earth culture's Ancient Sun God is probably a metanarative device to indicate this. Of course, it speaks interestingly to the notion that Christ is analogue to the other solar gods prior to him.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081223-0, 12/23/2008\nTested on: 12/24/2008 9:01:04 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-24T18:22:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So as far as plot is concerned, Apu Punchau is likely to be way in OUR past. \nIt makes sense he would be the Inca sun god because of proximity, although really\nhe should be ALL sun gods, which would make him very busy. (Like Santa Claus will be tonight.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if it's true that AP has no other plot role outside the Stone Town episode,\nthen he is best understood symbolically, as you say: he is the Old Sun and just\nanother incarnation or emanation of the Eternal. And that's why he's in TUotNS.\n\nYou'd think the various emanations would not need to \"be\" one another, so it is \ngeographical proximity that leads to their merging. Had Severian been landed in Persia\nand bumped into Ahura Mazda, presumably he would have caused a proximity explosion then, \nand had he then run back to Zarathustra's time, he would be Ahura Mazda. Except the Persians\nburned or chopped up their dead, so that might not have worked out so well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think it is confusing without recognizing that Urth is not Earth. Urth is the analog of Earth \nin another earlier universe (if \"early\" has meaning in extra-universal context). Urth doesn't\nhave Incas or Persians or Jesus, just (perhaps) analogs of them. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-24T18:31:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: b sharp [mailto:bsharporflat at hotmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is confusing without recognizing that Urth is not Earth. Urth is the analog of Earth \nin another earlier universe (if \"early\" has meaning in extra-universal context). Urth doesn't\nhave Incas or Persians or Jesus, just (perhaps) analogs of them. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm certainly not clear whether Earth is Urth, or whether Earth is to Urth as Urth is to Ushas. Probably the latter, yet the Hut in the Jungle seems to contain characters and time from Earth. The airplane described is very 20th century, and, though I'm not sure, someone pointed out that the verse they're quoting is from the bible." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49531C39.8070601@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-25T05:38:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: b sharp [mailto:bsharporflat at hotmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it is confusing without recognizing that Urth is not Earth. Urth is the analog of Earth \nin another earlier universe (if \"early\" has meaning in extra-universal context). Urth doesn't\nhave Incas or Persians or Jesus, just (perhaps) analogs of them. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm certainly not clear whether Earth is Urth, or whether Earth is to\nUrth as Urth is to Ushas. Probably the latter, yet the Hut in the\nJungle seems to contain characters and time from Earth. The airplane\ndescribed is very 20th century, and, though I'm not sure, someone\npointed out that the verse they're quoting is from the bible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe himself has since said that Urth is an earlier cycle than our \nEarth, but I think that may be retroactive continuity after realizing \nthat drowning Urth would otherwise break the OT God's promise to never \nagain destroy the Earth by water.\n(Presumably Robert and Marie's bible contains a slightly different \naccount of Noah's covenant.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-28T18:20:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<49531C39.8070601@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson [mailto:jwilson at io.com]\nSent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 09:38 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\n\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: b sharp [mailto:bsharporflat at hotmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it is confusing without recognizing that Urth is not Earth. Urth is the analog of Earth \nin another earlier universe (if \"early\" has meaning in extra-universal context). Urth doesn't\nhave Incas or Persians or Jesus, just (perhaps) analogs of them. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm certainly not clear whether Earth is Urth, or whether Earth is to\nUrth as Urth is to Ushas. Probably the latter, yet the Hut in the\nJungle seems to contain characters and time from Earth. The airplane\ndescribed is very 20th century, and, though I'm not sure, someone\npointed out that the verse they're quoting is from the bible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe himself has since said that Urth is an earlier cycle than our \nEarth, but I think that may be retroactive continuity after realizing \nthat drowning Urth would otherwise break the OT God's promise to never \nagain destroy the Earth by water.\n(Presumably Robert and Marie's bible contains a slightly different \naccount of Noah's covenant.)\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting point Jeff, it seems perhaps a bit disingenuous of Wolfe's part, given the translator's notes in BotNS, which is signed by Wolfe. It says the manuscript is from the future. Which means it's the manuscript he tossed into the winds of time in Urth, no?\nInterviews and author's exegesis are great, but I will always priviledge the words written in the volume under consideration, especially where there are contradictions. I think you're probably right about the retroactive continuity with the OT. Wolfe had a vertiginous \"Whoops, what did I do there?\" moment. Either way it works, I'm fine with the idea that Urth was Earth, or that Earth was Urth a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.\n\nHope my Castle of Days showes up soon. didn't come in time for teh Christmas.\nwhat you get for buying the cheapest copy on ye ole internet.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49581301.7050205@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-29T00:00:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nInteresting point Jeff, it seems perhaps a bit disingenuous of\nWolfe's part, given the translator's notes in BotNS, which is signed\nby Wolfe. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He does hedge a bit and sign it \"G.W.\" rather than own it outright with \na full name or implicitly by leaving it unsigned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It says the manuscript is from the future. Which means\nit's the manuscript he tossed into the winds of time in Urth, no? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Appendix mentions numerous other artifacts from the future times, \nand it also mention buildings that exist in both times, so I expect that \nit originally was intended to come via the Atrium or other \ntranscendental architecture, rather than any of the plot devices in the \nthen-unwritten and probably unimagined sequel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interviews and author's exegesis are great, but I will always\npriviledge the words written in the volume under consideration,\nespecially where there are contradictions. I think you're probably\nright about the retroactive continuity with the OT. Wolfe had a\nvertiginous \"Whoops, what did I do there?\" moment. Either way it\nworks, I'm fine with the idea that Urth was Earth, or that Earth was\nUrth a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am positive it was originally intended and written as a future of the \nvery earth we're sitting on, yes. I feel there's objective evidence of \nthis, but I'm also emotionally attached to the very subjective \nconfirmation I have from having attended Texas A&M (albeit 35 years \nlater than Wolfe) and having eerie deja vu from some of the scenery \nwhile reading the BOTNS the first time a few years later. The students \nwere nearly all military cadets in Wolfe's day (with some exceptions, \nlike the daughters of faculty members) with a motley accumulation of \nrepurposed and mis-shapen buildings like a miniature Citadel, \nvivisection rooms in the veterinary building, steam tunnels connecting \neverything, salutes fired from ancient cannons...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49596000.8060200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-29T23:40:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<49581301.7050205@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's one theory that has been raised---that Urth is in a \"later\" universe than Earth. The idea of Urth being a subsequent \"run\" is intriguing. But it's both unnecessary and unsupported.\n\nPerhaps the plainest problem with this is the existence of the lunar module photograph. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:22:57 -0500\nFrom: b sharp \nSubject: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"Windows-1252\"\n\n\n\nDavid Stockhoff writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So as far as plot is concerned, Apu Punchau is likely to be way in OUR past. \nIt makes sense he would be the Inca sun god because of proximity, although really\nhe should be ALL sun gods, which would make him very busy. (Like Santa Claus will be tonight.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if it's true that AP has no other plot role outside the Stone Town episode,\nthen he is best understood symbolically, as you say: he is the Old Sun and just\nanother incarnation or emanation of the Eternal. And that's why he's in TUotNS.\n\nYou'd think the various emanations would not need to \"be\" one another, so it is \ngeographical proximity that leads to their merging. Had Severian been landed in Persia\nand bumped into Ahura Mazda, presumably he would have caused a proximity explosion then, \nand had he then run back to Zarathustra's time, he would be Ahura Mazda. Except the Persians\nburned or chopped up their dead, so that might not have worked out so well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n \nI think it is confusing without recognizing that Urth is not Earth. Urth is the analog of Earth \nin another earlier universe (if \"early\" has meaning in extra-universal context). Urth doesn't\nhave Incas or Persians or Jesus, just (perhaps) analogs of them. \n_________________________________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49596237.7000701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-29T23:50:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<49596000.8060200@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, Urth could just as well be in our past as future. It could just as well be in both as in either.\n\nAnd if Christ is ever to \"return\" and fulfill god's promise after the Flood, it could just as well be in our future as in Severian's, at this level of abstraction.\n\n\n************************************\n\nWolfe himself has since said that Urth is an earlier cycle than our " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earth, but I think that may be retroactive continuity after realizing \nthat drowning Urth would otherwise break the OT God's promise to never \nagain destroy the Earth by water.\n(Presumably Robert and Marie's bible contains a slightly different \naccount of Noah's covenant.)\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz wrote:\n\nInteresting point Jeff, it seems perhaps a bit disingenuous of Wolfe's part, given the translator's notes in BotNS, which is signed by Wolfe. It says the manuscript is from the future. Which means it's the manuscript he tossed into the winds of time in Urth, no?\nInterviews and author's exegesis are great, but I will always priviledge the words written in the volume under consideration, especially where there are contradictions. I think you're probably right about the retroactive continuity with the OT. Wolfe had a vertiginous \"Whoops, what did I do there?\" moment. Either way it works, I'm fine with the idea that Urth was Earth, or that Earth was Urth a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4959BFE1.4060202@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T06:29:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<49596000.8060200@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nWell, that's one theory that has been raised---that Urth is in a \"later\" \nuniverse than Earth. The idea of Urth being a subsequent \"run\" is \nintriguing. But it's both unnecessary and unsupported.\n\nPerhaps the plainest problem with this is the existence of the lunar \nmodule photograph." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We worked out earlier in 2008 that the composition of the picture \ndescribed does not match any of the publicized Apollo 11 photos. If it \nis literally a painting, the artist took considerable liberties or it is \nsome other moon landing. Alan Bean does similar paintings, but did not \nbegin until 1982." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<731864.26512.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T15:22:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<4959BFE1.4060202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Plus, it is specifically called a \"painting,\" if I remember correctly, no? Still, that could be another case of words with broader uses like \"sailor\" or \"ship.\" I don't recall there being actual photography mentioned anywhere in New Sun by which to make a distinction.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 12:29:53 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nWell, that's one theory that has been raised---that Urth is in a \"later\" universe than Earth. The idea of Urth being a subsequent \"run\" is intriguing. But it's both unnecessary and unsupported.\n\nPerhaps the plainest problem with this is the existence of the lunar module photograph." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We worked out earlier in 2008 that the composition of the picture described does not match any of the publicized Apollo 11 photos. If it is literally a painting, the artist took considerable liberties or it is some other moon landing. Alan Bean does similar paintings, but did not begin until 1982.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495A4976.3020605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-30T16:16:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<731864.26512.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm skeptical that that means anything much, since if it is a painting \nit can be assumed to be a copy of a copy of a copy. Its exact \ncomposition is irrelevant. It doesn't need to come straight from 1980. \nBut it is a peculiar problem, isn't it? The Bean painting here is \nclearly a version of the one Rudesind is cleaning (with an extra figure \nSeverian does not mention, which itself means nothing since he \nmisinterprets what he sees): \nhttp://www.alanbeangallery.com/JFKvision-new.html It was painted \n(copyrighted) in 2004. I think it's a stretch to conclude Wolfe meant \nthe painting to suggest an alternative path to the same destiny, \nalthough it's easy to argue both that the constraints of physics would \nyield the same technology (gold-foil surfaces, stiffened flags) and that \nWolfe, as an engineer, would embrace that argument. The actual history \nof painting is full of such impossible contradictions, and the thin \ndistinction between imitation and forgery is a very Borgesian idea. But \nI concede it's not as strong a piece of evidence as I thought. I think \nthe best interpretation of this painting would assert the purely \nliterary nature of the game Wolfe plays, over any rigid \nuniverse-as-clockwork-mechanism sci-fi cliche. Still, there are \nsuggestions in the text that Urth is Urth many times over. We just beat \nthat theory to death a few weeks ago, but I'd like to hear more evidence \neither way. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 30 Dec \n2008 00:29:53 -0600 From: Jeff Wilson Subject: Re: " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T16:17:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<731864.26512.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wasn't it confirmed by Wolfe that it was an actual moon-landing photograph?\n \nAlso, from everything Wolfe said, I think it's pretty much confirmed this is not another universe but our own on a later phase. I agree that it is \"unnecessary and unsupported\" to think otherwise. Plus that would imply that every time a new universe pops up we get the same planets, same Earth, same continents, same human race, etc. Doesn't make any sense to me.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370812300821j6215b397m94d8c831c41bc927@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T16:21:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 8:17 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:\n... that would imply that\nevery time a new universe pops up we get the same planets, same Earth, same\ncontinents, same human race, etc. Doesn't make any sense to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It wouldn't make any sense -- except that the human race's successors from the\nprevious version of the universe and their servants and so on (the Heiro* group)\nguide evolution on an Earth-like planet to produce the new human race." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T16:49:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812300821j6215b397m94d8c831c41bc927@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about the earth itself? Do they guide continent formation? Plate-tectonics? Do we always end up with South America and Buenos Aires? Same languages? Do we get spanish speakers avery time a new universe pops up? Indians who use feathers in their heads?\n \nJust pulling your leg. I'm a bit fuzzy about the \"Hiero's\" role in human evolution on Earth but I remember reading that in the books and here at the list. But I don't think it implies that Earth, Mars, the Sun, the Moon, etc always pop up every time. I'm not sure that was what Wolfe wanted to imply. It makes far more sence to me that Urth is our Earth in the future, especially since Wolfe himself implies so in the interviews.\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<677561.64657.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T16:58:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370812300821j6215b397m94d8c831c41bc927@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I personally don't think that the Urth universe is a different universe. But I do think it's worth considering given \"Malrubius\" 's talk about the Hieros moving from universe to universe in Cathedral in which there are variations on the same theme.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:21:57 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 8:17 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:\n... that would imply that\nevery time a new universe pops up we get the same planets, same Earth, same\ncontinents, same human race, etc. Doesn't make any sense to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It wouldn't make any sense -- except that the human race's successors from the\nprevious version of the universe and their servants and so on (the Heiro* group)\nguide evolution on an Earth-like planet to produce the new human race." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T17:04:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<677561.64657.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Variations on the same theme is fine. Exactely the same thing is not, at least for me, especially when Wolfe in his interviews clearly states that he doesn't remember exactely how much time has passed from the Earth we know now. That's as good a confirmation this is the same universe as other. \n \nAs a side note, I've been so busy that I can't read everything posted in this list and much of it I have to delete before reading. Feel free to tell me to shut TFU or read everything if I want to comment if you feel I deserve it. \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<495A549F.80607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-30T17:04:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. Severian doesn't know what a photograph is. But a painting at least can be recreated and copied so the image (the icon, if you will) lasts chiliads." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:22:04 -0800 (PST)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau" } ] }, { "message_id": "<450572.44396.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T17:06:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's still probably more thoughtful than mine even when I do read all the posts...like when I write \"Cathedral\" instead of \"Citadel\"...\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 11:04:00 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\n\n Variations on the same theme is fine. Exactely the same thing is not, at least for me, especially when Wolfe in his interviews clearly states that he doesn't remember exactely how much time has passed from the Earth we know now. That's as good a confirmation this is the same universe as other. \n \nAs a side note, I've been so busy that I can't read everything posted in this list and much of it I have to delete before reading. Feel free to tell me to shut TFU or read everything if I want to comment if you feel I deserve it. \n \nPedro" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:58:46 -0800\nFrom: cnbrewer at yahoo.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\n\nI personally don't think that the Urth universe is a different universe. But I do think it's worth considering given \"Malrubius\" 's talk about the Hieros moving from universe to universe in Cathedral in which there are variations on the same theme.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:21:57 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\n\nOn Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 8:17 AM, Pedro Pereira\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... that would imply that\nevery time a new universe pops up we get the same planets, same Earth, same\ncontinents, same human race, etc. Doesn't make any sense to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It wouldn't make any sense -- except that the human race's successors from the\nprevious version of the universe and their servants and so on (the Heiro* group)\nguide evolution on an Earth-like planet to produce the new human race.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T17:09:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<450572.44396.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL\n \nPedro\n\n\n\nDate: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:06:42 -0800From: cnbrewer at yahoo.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\n\n\n\nIt's still probably more thoughtful than mine even when I do read all the posts...like when I write \"Cathedral\" instead of \"Citadel\"...\n\n\n\nFrom: Pedro Pereira To: urth at lists.urth.netSent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 11:04:00 AMSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495A59E9.7070406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-30T17:27:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro, by no means should you STFU. But please respond in plain text if you can. I've been forgetting, myself, but reading your posts reminded me!\n\nThe iterative-Urth theory can't ever be totally dismissed, because the Hieros specifically have been granted the means and the arrogance to carry it out. But it seems like a huge waste of energy to me, both literally and figuratively. How much improvement would each iteration yield? How much micromanagement would be required, even if you assume that probabilities cluster for your convenience, and even if you assume vast computers run Yesod?\n\nAt some point, the manipulative theories begin to ascribe so much power to the manipulators, Hiero or Increate, that the protagonist's struggles become meaningless. One may as well write a novel that consists of counting to 1000 and back again. That's what I refuse to accept, even though cyclicality clearly is a concept TBotNS plays with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:04:00 +0200\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nVariations on the same theme is fine. Exactely the same thing is not, at least for me, especially when Wolfe in his interviews clearly states that he doesn't remember exactely how much time has passed from the Earth we know now. That's as good a confirmation this is the same universe as other. \n \nAs a side note, I've been so busy that I can't read everything posted in this list and much of it I have to delete before reading. Feel free to tell me to shut TFU or read everything if I want to comment if you feel I deserve it. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9A1C1A38-CB16-464C-8C5E-2E6ECA2EFF27@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-30T18:39:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<4959BFE1.4060202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 29, 2008, at 10:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, that's one theory that has been raised---that Urth is in a \n\"later\" universe than Earth. The idea of Urth being a subsequent \n\"run\" is intriguing. But it's both unnecessary and unsupported.\nPerhaps the plainest problem with this is the existence of the \nlunar module photograph." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We worked out earlier in 2008 that the composition of the picture \ndescribed does not match any of the publicized Apollo 11 photos. If \nit is literally a painting, the artist took considerable liberties \nor it is some other moon landing. Alan Bean does similar paintings, \nbut did not begin until 1982.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read all the replies yet, so forgive me if this is redundant.\nbut I've always figured it was a painting of the moon photo for a \ncouple of reasons.\nA) Rudesind cleans paintings and would know the difference between the \nsurfaces of a photo and a paining.\nB) Photo paper has a range of about 75 years before it begins to \nreally deteriorate. It's hard to imagine photos surviving." } ] }, { "message_id": "<323D69C5-863A-4561-AEDF-6FBD13B609FE@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-30T18:44:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "all the \"which Urth is Earth\" type questions are great.\nbut what do you think about the significance of Apu Punchau as I've \nthrown out here?\ndo you think I'm totally off base?\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 23, 2008, at 2:59 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The significance of Apu Punchau is a mystery to me. I find it hard \nto believe that he's related to the Commonwealth state religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think Apu-Punchau is related to the Commonwealth state \nreligion. If that's coming from my post, I meant the Conciliator \ninfluenced the state religion.\n\n\nThere are two ways I find Apu Punchau significant in the symbology \nof the Urth Cycle.\n\n\nPlotwise, Apu Punchau is a sun god from ancient prehistory of Urth. \nOf Course, the name comes from the Incan \"Apu Punchau\", (aka \n\"Inti\"), \"Head of Day\" or \"Leader of Day\". He is a Sun God. He is \nThe Sun.\n\n\nOn one hand, very simply, if this story is a parody or allegory for \na Solar Redeemer, like Christ, or like the other Sun Gods, then \nthat Severian is Apu Punchau & the Conciliator & the New Sun speaks \nto the idea that the various incarnations of Solar Deities are \nincarnating the same Being. One consciousness is literally every \nSolar God mentioned in the microcosm of the book. That works fairly \nwell at a basic plot level, I suppose. That it maps to an Earth \nculture's Ancient Sun God is probably a metanarative device to \nindicate this. Of course, it speaks interestingly to the notion \nthat Christ is analogue to the other solar gods prior to him.\n\nOn the other hand, and, to my mind, more interestingly, Apu Punchau \ncan be read as a symbol of the Old Sun. The cyclicality of time and \nthe reemergence of previous patterns in new creations is key to \nunderstanding this somewhat mystic/mythic or psychological reading.\n\nThe sun has began to die in the Age of the Monarch, so it's probably \nsafe to assume that the sun is not dying in the Age of Myth, so Apu \nPunchau is a Sun God of the current sun, which is, in Severian's \ntime, The Old Sun. When Severian, The New Sun, wrestles and cancels \nout Apu Punchau, it is a symbolic \"killing of the father\" though it \nis totally unconscious and subliminal. New Sun cancels out the \nexistence of the Old Sun. Great stuff.\n\nYET, As the Man-To-Be must \"kill the father,\" so the Man \"becomes \nthe father\" as his life progresses. Of course, Severian \"becomes\" \nApu Punchau. Though plotwise, Severian is NOT the Old Sun, as Apu \nPunchau, he is symbolic of the Old Sun (mostly due to the autocthons \nsuperstitions). He literally becomes the Old Sun for prehistory, \nbefore he gives birth to the New Sun. Through a loop in time, he \n\"becomes the father\"\n\nThe twist is that AFTER he is the New Sun, he will go forward again \nto Ushas, where he becomes the Sleeper God Awakened, where, one \nassumes, given the cyclicality, the New Sun will eventually become \nthe Old Sun. (No Suns were ever swapped with the change, just that \nthe black hole was replaced with the white fountain, and the sun \ngiven new life). So, as The Sleeper God, it's likely that he'd be a \nSolar Godling to Ushas, where he would doubltess teach them what \nwisdom he could, practical and spiritual, and in that role, he would \nbe a New Apu Punchau. I don't believe it mentions the Sleeper having \nany solar symbology, so that might be a stretch, but the practical \nrole is probably the same.\n\n\nI've found Apu Punchau to be one of the most confounding elements to \nunderstand, but since having this double insight, I feel like Apu \nPunchau really ties a nice ribbon on this present.\n\n\nHappy Christmas y'all.\nMay the Sun be reborn.\n\n~SonOfWitz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T20:11:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<495A59E9.7070406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for caring about what I had to say.\n \nI don't understand the \"plain text\" part though. What do you mean? Did I write the wrong way or something? I'm not an english native speaker so sorry but I didn't understand that part.\n \nAs for the rest: I have no problems with consequent universes having consequent \"Earths\" and \"Humanity\". From what I remember reading it all fits quite well and follows the book. What I have a problem with is assuming that everything is exactely the same. There is no reason to support this theory. There is no reason to believe in Buenos Aires version 537 and Spanish Conquistador version 799, which is pretty much what we need to believe if we accept that the Earth/Urth discribed in the books is in another (prior or subsequent) version of the universe. Also, if everything is exactely the same, history is the same, geography is the same, Ronald Reagan exists every time, etc, then we can take this to the extreme and basically we are eliminating free will and pretty much there will be no diference between universes, so there's no purpose in doing it to start with.\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<495AE4BC.9060901@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-31T03:19:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry I wasn't clear. You generally have the option of replying in plain text, rich text, or HTML. HTML emails result in the text that appeared below your post. Here, it's below the asterisks, especially the URLs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:11:13 +0200\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nThank you for caring about what I had to say.\n \nI don't understand the \"plain text\" part though. What do you mean? Did I write the wrong way or something? I'm not an english native speaker so sorry but I didn't understand that part.\n \n******************************************************************\n\n------------------------------> > Message: 2> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:04:00 +0200> From: Pedro Pereira > Subject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau> To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"> > > " } ] }, { "message_id": "<495B0916.9070303@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-31T05:54:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<731864.26512.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\nPlus, it is specifically called a \"painting,\" if I remember\ncorrectly, no? Still, that could be another case of words with\nbroader uses like \"sailor\" or \"ship.\" I don't recall there being\nactual photography mentioned anywhere in New Sun by which to make a\ndistinction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For comparison, the work \"book\" is shortly after applied to a reel of \nmicrofilm and a computer memory crystal as well as more conventional \nbound volumes of leaves and pages." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495B0994.6090103@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-31T05:56:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pedro Pereira wrote:\nAs a side note, I've been so busy that I can't read everything posted in \nthis list and much of it I have to delete before reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How is this possible?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495B0B64.30605@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-31T06:04:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<495A59E9.7070406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nPedro, by no means should you STFU. But please respond in plain text if \nyou can. I've been forgetting, myself, but reading your posts reminded me!\n\nThe iterative-Urth theory can't ever be totally dismissed, because the \nHieros specifically have been granted the means and the arrogance to \ncarry it out. But it seems like a huge waste of energy to me, both \nliterally and figuratively. How much improvement would each iteration \nyield? How much micromanagement would be required, even if you assume \nthat probabilities cluster for your convenience, and even if you assume \nvast computers run Yesod?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Assume? We are specifically shown the insides of the Yesodi's planet is \ncrammed full of machinery, and specifically told each archipelago is \ndedicated to the destiny of a galaxy in Briah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At some point, the manipulative theories begin to ascribe so much power \nto the manipulators, Hiero or Increate, that the protagonist's struggles \nbecome meaningless. One may as well write a novel that consists of \ncounting to 1000 and back again. That's what I refuse to accept, even \nthough cyclicality clearly is a concept TBotNS plays with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Yesodis are very powerful, but they are also spread very thin - an \narchipelago per galaxy implies Father Inire might be the only one that \ncan be spared to watch over Earth full time - so Borski might be right \nabout his many disguises, as he would have to wear as many hats." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495B0D50.1060100@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-31T06:12:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<9A1C1A38-CB16-464C-8C5E-2E6ECA2EFF27@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nI haven't read all the replies yet, so forgive me if this is redundant.\nbut I've always figured it was a painting of the moon photo for a couple \nof reasons.\nA) Rudesind cleans paintings and would know the difference between the \nsurfaces of a photo and a paining.\nB) Photo paper has a range of about 75 years before it begins to really \ndeteriorate. It's hard to imagine photos surviving." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where do photos of the American Civil War come from then?\n\nIndeed, Rudesind may not see any difference between stellar tech \nreproductions of a photograph and of a photo-realistic painting. \nHolbein's portrait of Thomas Moore is an example of what I'm thinking of." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495B0EC7.4090901@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-31T06:18:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<495AE4BC.9060901@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nSorry I wasn't clear. You generally have the option of replying in plain \ntext, rich text, or HTML. HTML emails result in the text that appeared \nbelow your post. Here, it's below the asterisks, especially the URLs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rich text and HTML are bad for e-mail and make the baby Theoanthropos cry.\n\nPlain text is the original and primary international standard for e-mail \nand the only format guaranteed to be readable by all the recipients.\n\nYou can read more about it here:\n\n\thttp://www.expita.com/nomime.html" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-31T12:47:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<495AE4BC.9060901@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:19:24 -0500\nFrom: dstockhoff at verizon.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\n\nSorry I wasn't clear. You generally have the option of replying in plain text, rich text, or HTML. HTML emails result in the text that appeared below your post. Here, it's below the asterisks, especially the URLs.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:11:13 +0200\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nThank you for caring about what I had to say.\n\nI don't understand the \"plain text\" part though. What do you mean? Did I write the wrong way or something? I'm not an english native speaker so sorry but I didn't understand that part.\n\n******************************************************************\n\n------------------------------>> Message: 2> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:04:00 +0200> From: Pedro Pereira > Subject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau> To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\">>> \n\n\n******************************************************************\n\n---> avast! Antivir" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-31T12:47:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<495AE4BC.9060901@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it OK now? I feel like a web noob!\n \nPedro\n\n----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:19:24 -0500\nFrom: dstockhoff at verizon.net\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\n\nSorry I wasn't clear. You generally have the option of replying in plain text, rich text, or HTML. HTML emails result in the text that appeared below your post. Here, it's below the asterisks, especially the URLs.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:11:13 +0200\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\nThank you for caring about what I had to say.\n\nI don't understand the \"plain text\" part though. What do you mean? Did I write the wrong way or something? I'm not an english native speaker so sorry but I didn't understand that part.\n\n******************************************************************\n\n------------------------------>> Message: 2> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:04:00 +0200> From: Pedro Pereira> Subject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau> To:> Message-ID:> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\">>>\n\n\n******************************************************************\n\n---> avast! Antivir" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-31T12:48:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<495B0994.6090103@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know...shame on me.\n \nPedro\n\n----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:56:36 -0600\nFrom: jwilson at io.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\n\nPedro Pereira wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As a side note, I've been so busy that I can't read everything posted in\nthis list and much of it I have to delete before reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How is this possible?\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson>\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495B8586.6060701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-31T14:45:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Obviously, this is not a matter that can be truly resolved. You're \nright that the destiny-control machinery must be used for something, and \nwe are told in general terms what that is. But again I'd have to assert \nthat, if common-sense analysis means anything here, one archipelago per \ngalaxy is simply not enough computing power, however you measure it, to \nmicromanage each world in a galaxy---but also that it would surely \nrequire such energy to run (and there has to be implementation as well) \nthat it would take an entire universe to feed it. And the question of \npurpose remains unanswered. So I'd again have to reject any theory that \nrequires such micromanagement, as unsupported. And infinitely repeated \niterations of the same universe with an Earth in every one fits that \ndescription. Of course, how exactly to define \"micro\" is a problem as \nwell. We can't. The possibility it tantalizing, and Wolfe has certainly \ngiven us clues that point us at such a theory. Also, I admit that the \ntheory of TBotNS as a parody or travesty of the orthodox (since \nBoethius) theory of God's existence outside time would only benefit from \nsuch a ridiculous and pointless effort at control by ordinary beings. \nStill, you can't embrace a theory just because Wolfe points to it. He \npoints to error as well. We need an Inquisition to sort this out .... \n------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 \n00:04:20 -0600 From: Jeff Wilson Subject: Re: (urth) \nThe significance of Apu Punchau To: The Urth Mailing List \n Message-ID: <495B0B64.30605 at io.com> Content-Type: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed David Stockhoff wrote:\nPedro, by no means should you STFU. But please respond in plain text if \nyou can. I've been forgetting, myself, but reading your posts reminded me!\n\nThe iterative-Urth theory can't ever be totally dismissed, because the \nHieros specifically have been granted the means and the arrogance to \ncarry it out. But it seems like a huge waste of energy to me, both \nliterally and figuratively. How much improvement would each iteration \nyield? How much micromanagement would be required, even if you assume \nthat probabilities cluster for your convenience, and even if you assume \nvast computers run Yesod?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Assume? We are specifically shown the insides of the Yesodi's planet is \ncrammed full of machinery, and specifically told each archipelago is \ndedicated to the destiny of a galaxy in Briah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At some point, the manipulative theories begin to ascribe so much power \nto the manipulators, Hiero or Increate, that the protagonist's struggles \nbecome meaningless. One may as well write a novel that consists of \ncounting to 1000 and back again. That's what I refuse to accept, even \nthough cyclicality clearly is a concept TBotNS plays with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Yesodis are very powerful, but they are also spread very thin - an \narchipelago per galaxy implies Father Inire might be the only one that \ncan be spared to watch over Earth full time - so Borski might be right \nabout his many disguises, as he would have to wear as many hats.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495B8636.3090707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-31T14:48:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<495B8586.6060701@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ah, so that's why Jesus wept! ------------------------------ Message: 7 \nDate: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 00:18:47 -0600 From: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau To: The Urth Mailing \nList Message-ID: <495B0EC7.4090901 at io.com> \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed David " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stockhoff wrote:\nSorry I wasn't clear. You generally have the option of replying in plain \ntext, rich text, or HTML. HTML emails result in the text that appeared \nbelow your post. Here, it's below the asterisks, especially the URLs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rich text and HTML are bad for e-mail and make the baby Theoanthropos cry.\n\nPlain text is the original and primary international standard for e-mail \nand the only format guaranteed to be readable by all the recipients.\n\nYou can read more about it here:\n\n\thttp://www.expita.com/nomime.html\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-31T15:06:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<495B8586.6060701@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA512" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 9:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nJeff Obviously, this is not a matter that can be truly resolved. You're\nright that the destiny-control machinery must be used for something, and we\nare told in general terms what that is. But again I'd have to assert that,\nif common-sense analysis means anything here, one archipelago per galaxy is\nsimply not enough computing power, however you measure it, to micromanage\neach world in a galaxy---but also that it would surely require such energy\nto run (and there has to be implementation as well) that it would take an\nentire universe to feed it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This would be incorrect; you drastically underestimate the limits of\ncomputing. An area the size of a laptop could simulate entire worlds\nmany many times over.\n\nGood reading in this are includes Seth Lloyd's paper \"Ultimate\nphysical limits to computation\". See\nhttp://www.ar-tiste.com/qcomp_onion/jan2002/UltimateLaptop.htm and\nhttp://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9908043\n\nThe limits are intimidatingly vast, and certainly many times (if not\norders) greater than what they need to run Briah.\n\n- --\ngwern\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)\n\niEYEAREKAAYFAklbioMACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oIRoQCfVmfrpRbcF+QmilscIEjOTTYG\n27wAoIafGr+nwf3J4go8WqanyycfX5d9\n=x3cS\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<794127.78364.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-31T15:59:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<495B0EC7.4090901@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Got a link to an article this morning that seemed apropos of our multiple repeating universes discussion:\n\nhttp://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026861.500-did-our-cosmos-exist-before-the-big-bang.html?full=true\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<495C2CC8.7080605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-01T02:39:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The significance of Apu Punchau", "in_reply_to": "<794127.78364.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, the but the issue is not running Briah, as is clearly in some sense the case. The issue is controlling each iteration to be nearly identical to, and presumably always slightly better than, the \"last.\" Sorry, no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:06:45 -0500\nFrom: \"Gwern Branwen\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The significance of Apu Punchau\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8\n\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA512\n\nOn Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 9:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Obviously, this is not a matter that can be truly resolved. You're\nright that the destiny-control machinery must be used for something, and we\nare told in general terms what that is. But again I'd have to assert that,\nif common-sense analysis means anything here, one archipelago per galaxy is\nsimply not enough computing power, however you measure it, to micromanage\neach world in a galaxy---but also that it would surely require such energy\nto run (and there has to be implementation as well) that it would take an\nentire universe to feed it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThis would be incorrect; you drastically underestimate the limits of\ncomputing. An area the size of a laptop could simulate entire worlds\nmany many times over.\n\nGood reading in this are includes Seth Lloyd's paper \"Ultimate\nphysical limits to computation\". See\nhttp://www.ar-tiste.com/qcomp_onion/jan2002/UltimateLaptop.htm and\nhttp://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9908043\n\nThe limits are intimidatingly vast, and certainly many times (if not\norders) greater than what they need to run Briah.\n\n- --\ngwern" } ] } ] }