intractability

Marc Aramini24 Dec 2008, 18:03

Son of Witz - God is not necessarily a character in Long Sun, since the enlightenment (minor spoiler but not much of one) of the outsider can have other psychic or preprogrammed explanations (the male and female voice whispering in Silk's ear and his status as special embryo posits one possible suggestion, as are his frequent claims that he does not trust the Outsider completely.) It is wrong to say He does not exist in Wolfe, but often the material machinations of evil serve are sublimated to His purpose rather than a result of direct action on His part.

Son of Witz24 Dec 2008, 18:21

↳ follows, by subject match Marc Aramini

sorry, I skipped your spoiler. starting Long Sun this week. ~m

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-----Original Message----- From: Marc Aramini [mailto:marcaramini at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 10:03 AM To: urth at urth.net Subject: (urth) intractability Son of Witz - God is not necessarily a character in Long Sun, since the enlightenment (minor spoiler but not much of one) of the outsider can have other psychic or preprogrammed explanations (the male and female voice whispering in Silk's ear and his status as special embryo posits one possible suggestion, as are his frequent claims that he does not trust the Outsider completely.) It is wrong to say He does not exist in Wolfe, but often the material machinations of evil serve are sublimated to His purpose rather than a result of direct action on His part. _______________________________________________

Stuart Hamm25 Dec 2008, 13:50

↳ in reply to Son of Witz

good luck...don't get trapped in the tunnels ???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 ???? Skype? stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm ? ??? stuarthamm.net --- On Wed, 12/24/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> Subject: Re: (urth) intractability To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 10:21 AM sorry, I skipped your spoiler. starting Long Sun this week. ~m

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-----Original Message----- From: Marc Aramini [mailto:marcaramini at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 10:03 AM To: urth at urth.net Subject: (urth) intractability Son of Witz - God is not necessarily a character in Long Sun, since the enlightenment (minor spoiler but not much of one) of the outsider can have other psychic or preprogrammed explanations (the male and female voice whispering in Silk's ear and his status as special embryo posits one possible suggestion, as are his frequent claims that he does not trust the Outsider completely.) It is wrong to say He does not exist in Wolfe, but often the material machinations of evil serve are sublimated to His purpose rather than a result of direct action on His part. _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

Greg Bates26 Dec 2008, 14:48

↳ in reply to Stuart Hamm

I just started Short Sun a couple of days ago. Hope to finally finish the whole Cycle. :-)

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On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Stuart Hamm <hammstu at sbcglobal.net> wrote: good luck...don't get trapped in the tunnels Mobile (415) 786-3624 Skype stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm stuarthamm.net --- On Wed, 12/24/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: From: Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> Subject: Re: (urth) intractability To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 10:21 AM sorry, I skipped your spoiler. starting Long Sun this week. ~m

-----Original Message----- From: Marc Aramini [mailto:marcaramini at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 10:03 AM To: urth at urth.net Subject: (urth) intractability Son of Witz - God is not necessarily a character in Long Sun, since the enlightenment (minor spoiler but not much of one) of the outsider can have other psychic or preprogrammed explanations (the male and female voice whispering in Silk's ear and his status as special embryo posits one possible suggestion, as are his frequent claims that he does not trust the Outsider completely.) It is wrong to say He does not exist in Wolfe, but often the material machinations of evil serve are sublimated to His purpose rather than a result of direct action on His part. _______________________________________________

Dave Tallman26 Dec 2008, 21:45

↳ in reply to Marc Aramini

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Marc Aramini wrote: It is wrong to say He does not exist in Wolfe, but often the material machinations of evil serve are sublimated to His purpose rather than a result of direct action on His part.

It might be useful to compare Long Sun/Short Sun with Pirate Freedom, where God seems to take a direct hand (indeed, a divine miracle seems to be the only available explanation for the time-travel). Is that story intractable, even if (as I theorize) Bram Burt is another time traveler and Chris is his son? It seems like it could be, but it's probably tractable with multiple linear rewrites. 1) Burt goes back in time from the convent, does rather badly, and nearly dies. He arrives back at the day of his birth, older and wiser. 2) With advance warning from his older counterpart, Burt2 trains and prepares, and brings back LeSage as an accomplice to help him. This time he becomes a successful pirate, and leaves treasure for himself to pick up. 3) Burt2, now a wealthy gangster, decides to have a son, Chris. He doesn't want his son in the same business, so he arranges that Chris will be at the convent for the time-shift. Burt3 will try to look after him. 4) Multiple iterations are built up for Chris, as Burt and LeSage learn from experience when and how to help him. Chris eventually lives to find the woman of his dreams, Novia. 5) The first time this happens, Chris has to leave Novia alone or with someone untrustworthy. He decides to go back and help her, as Ignacio. Comparing BoTLS and PF, I would say Silk is a good man in a bad religion, and Chris is a bad man in a good religion. When they are exposed to the real world, Silk loses his innocence and Chris reforms.