{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5294", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5294, "subject": "Sleeping Baldanders", "messages": 19, "voices": 12, "first": "2008-12-29T12:13:13+00:00", "last": "2008-12-30T19:12:12+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<828139.55996.qm@web59615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Matt Teel", "address": "adeodatus43 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-29T12:13:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV (\"Baldanders\"), in which Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half awake and responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts on what's really going on there?\n\nBaldanders says four things: (1) Never.\"? (2) \"Baldanders.\"? (3) \"You--strike off.\"? (4) \"Tomorrow, then.\"\n\nThe scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't figure out what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have already been established, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we knew that Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward Thrax, or whatever. So, any ideas?\n\nMatt Teel\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1408.67.142.130.33.1230557940.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-12-29T13:39:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<828139.55996.qm@web59615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV (\"Baldanders\"), in\nwhich Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half awake\nand responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts on\nwhat's really going on there?\n\nBaldanders says four things: (1) Never.\"? (2) \"Baldanders.\"? (3)\n\"You--strike off.\"? (4) \"Tomorrow, then.\"\n\nThe scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't figure\nout what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have already been\nestablished, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we knew\nthat Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward Thrax,\nor whatever. So, any ideas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4958D3C2.3010008@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-12-29T13:42:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<828139.55996.qm@web59615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matt Teel wrote:\nBaldanders says four things: (1) Never.\" (2) \"Baldanders.\" (3) \"You--strike off.\" (4) \"Tomorrow, then.\"\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My take is that Baldanders is only pretending to be talking in his \nsleep. He's playing his role as a dim-witted giant here, instead of the \narticulate genius he actually is." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8476d0320812290917p215662bsf8c835434f0da80@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Bruce Hayles", "address": "brucehayles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-29T17:17:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<4958D3C2.3010008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd assumed that the changes in Baldanders behavior were not an act but\nsomething caused by wildly fluctuating levels of hormones. Otherwise I\ncannot explain how Baldanders goes from enranged beast (when he charges the\ncrowd and the cacogens have to burn him down) to scientist (at his castle)\nto some sort of crazed child (when he fights Severian at his castle)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nMatt Teel wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Baldanders says four things: (1) Never.\" (2) \"Baldanders.\" (3)\n\"You--strike off.\" (4) \"Tomorrow, then.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My take is that Baldanders is only pretending to be talking in his sleep.\nHe's playing his role as a dim-witted giant here, instead of the articulate\ngenius he actually is.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-29T17:27:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<1408.67.142.130.33.1230557940.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV (\"Baldanders\"), \nin\nwhich Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is \nhalf awake\nand responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any \nthoughts on\nwhat's really going on there?\n\nBaldanders says four things: (1) Never.\" (2) \"Baldanders.\" (3)\n\"You--strike off.\" (4) \"Tomorrow, then.\"\n\nThe scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't \nfigure\nout what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have already \nbeen\nestablished, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we \nknew\nthat Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward \nThrax,\nor whatever. So, any ideas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Knew that he was the New Sun to be?\n\nsomething like\n(you, the New Sun) \"Never\"\n(the New Sun will be ) \"Baldanders\"\n\"You--strike off.\" (Get the hell out of here)\n\"Tomorrow, then.\" (we will dispute this another day)\n\n\nsomething like that?\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<177096.6912.qm@web59602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Matt Teel", "address": "adeodatus43 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-29T19:12:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm, now that is interesting, Witz. Maybe if we combine this with Bruce's observation that Baldanders' hormones may be playing with his personality, and Dave's observation that he's only pretending to be asleep and is actually awake, we may get at the root of this enigmatic little scene.\n\nMatt \n\n--- On Mon, 12/29/08, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 29, 2008, 5:27 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV\n(\"Baldanders\"), in\nwhich Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half\nawake\nand responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts\non\nwhat's really going on there?\n\nBaldanders says four things: (1) Never.\" (2)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Baldanders.\" (3)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"You--strike off.\" (4) \"Tomorrow, then.\"\n\nThe scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't\nfigure\nout what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have\nalready been\nestablished, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we\nknew\nthat Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward\nThrax,\nor whatever. So, any ideas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Knew that he was the New Sun to be?\n\nsomething like\n(you, the New Sun) \"Never\"\n(the New Sun will be ) \"Baldanders\"\n\"You--strike off.\" (Get the hell out of here)\n\"Tomorrow, then.\" (we will dispute this another day)\n\n\nsomething like that?\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<150173.8352.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-29T19:35:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<177096.6912.qm@web59602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure about the rest, but I assume that \"You -- strike off\" has to do with Severian \"striking off\" peoples' heads.\n\n\n\n\n\n\nHm, now that is interesting, Witz. Maybe if we combine this with Bruce's observation that Baldanders' hormones may be playing with his personality, and Dave's observation that he's only pretending to be asleep and is actually awake, we may get at the root of this enigmatic little scene.\n \nMatt \n\n--- On Mon, 12/29/08, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 29, 2008, 5:27 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV\n(\"Baldanders\"), in\nwhich Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half\nawake\nand responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts\non\nwhat's really going on there?\n\nBaldanders says four things: (1) Never.\" (2)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Baldanders.\" (3)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"You--strike off.\" (4) \"Tomorrow, then.\"\n\nThe scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't\nfigure\nout what. Severian's answers simply recap things that have\nalready been\nestablished, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we\nknew\nthat Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward\nThrax,\nor whatever. So, any ideas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Knew that he was the New Sun to be?\n\nsomething like\n(you, the New Sun) \"Never\"\n(the New Sun will be ) \"Baldanders\"\n\"You--strike off.\" (Get the hell out of here)\n\"Tomorrow, then.\" (we will dispute this another day)\n\n\nsomething like that?\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8476d0320812291246w49b4e8cbj9a9a5358c529b921@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Bruce Hayles", "address": "brucehayles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-29T20:46:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<150173.8352.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Craig, that was exactly my understanding of it too. I don't have the book\nwith me, but I remember Severian saying something that indicates that that\nis also his interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nNot sure about the rest, but I assume that \"You -- strike off\" has to do\nwith Severian \"striking off\" peoples' heads.\n\n------------------------------\n*From:* Matt Teel \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Monday, December 29, 2008 1:12:06 PM\n\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders\n\nHm, now that is interesting, Witz. Maybe if we combine this with Bruce's\nobservation that Baldanders' hormones may be playing with his personality,\nand Dave's observation that he's only pretending to be asleep and is\nactually awake, we may get at the root of this enigmatic little scene.\n\nMatt\n\n--- On *Mon, 12/29/08, Son of Witz * wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 29, 2008, 5:27 PM\n\nOn Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV\n(\"Baldanders\"), in\nwhich Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half\nawake\nand responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts\non\nwhat's really going on there?\n\nBaldanders says four things: (1) Never.\" (2)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Baldanders.\" (3)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"You--strike off.\" (4) \"Tomorrow, then.\"\n\nThe scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't\nfigure\nout what. Severian's answers\n simply recap things that have\nalready been\nestablished, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we\nknew\nthat Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward\nThrax,\nor whatever. So, any ideas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Knew that he was the New Sun to be?\n\nsomething like\n(you, the New Sun) \"Never\"\n(the New Sun will be ) \"Baldanders\"\n\"You--strike off.\" (Get the hell out of here)\n\"Tomorrow, then.\" (we will dispute this another day)\n\n\nsomething like that?\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90812291348g1ac89609g60dce32a25568b8d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-29T21:48:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<8476d0320812291246w49b4e8cbj9a9a5358c529b921@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't kept track or anything, but I'd be willing to entertain the notion\nthat Severian is wrong more than half of the time in his interpretations of\nevents.\nThe issue of Baldanders' inconsistent behavior could also be explained (as I\nexplained it to myself) by \"incredible hulk\" syndrome. When he gets upset\n(as when he charged the audience or fought Severian) he flies into a rage,\nbut is analytical otherwise.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Bruce Hayles wrote:\nCraig, that was exactly my understanding of it too. I don't have the book\nwith me, but I remember Severian saying something that indicates that that\nis also his interpretation.\n\n\nOn Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not sure about the rest, but I assume that \"You -- strike off\" has to do\nwith Severian \"striking off\" peoples' heads.\n\n------------------------------\n*From:* Matt Teel \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Monday, December 29, 2008 1:12:06 PM\n\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders\n\n Hm, now that is interesting, Witz. Maybe if we combine this with\nBruce's observation that Baldanders' hormones may be playing with his\npersonality, and Dave's observation that he's only pretending to be asleep\nand is actually awake, we may get at the root of this enigmatic little\nscene.\n\nMatt\n\n--- On *Mon, 12/29/08, Son of Witz * wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 29, 2008, 5:27 PM\n\nOn Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV\n(\"Baldanders\"), in\nwhich Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is half\nawake\nand responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any thoughts" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "on\nwhat's really going on there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Baldanders says four things: (1) Never.\" (2)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Baldanders.\" (3)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"You--strike off.\" (4) \"Tomorrow, then.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't\nfigure\nout what. Severian's answers\n simply recap things that have\nalready been\nestablished, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we\nknew\nthat Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thrax,\nor whatever. So, any ideas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Knew that he was the New Sun to be?\n\nsomething like\n(you, the New Sun) \"Never\"\n\n(the New Sun will be ) \"Baldanders\"\n\"You--strike off.\" (Get the hell out of here)\n\"Tomorrow, then.\" (we will dispute this another day)\n\n\nsomething like that?\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-12-29T22:00:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ormsby", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90812291348g1ac89609g60dce32a25568b8d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Various interpretation of the signficance of Able's surname have been \nposted, but I hadn't previously herd of _Maudine Ormsby_\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maudine_Ormsby\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<51490DE3-A28A-498E-8382-303F555397D6@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-30T00:00:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90812291348g1ac89609g60dce32a25568b8d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ",\nI had the same thought about striking off heads, then checked the \nbook. Severian interprets Baldanders this way.\nbut as Paul points out Severian is often pretty off base. I think \nWolfe does this as misdirection. we get a sort of decent 'explanation' \nfor one of the four statements, but if he's referring to his headsman \nrole, \"You--strike off.\" would end with a question mark. no?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 29, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Paul B wrote:\nI haven't kept track or anything, but I'd be willing to entertain \nthe notion that Severian is wrong more than half of the time in his \ninterpretations of events.\nThe issue of Baldanders' inconsistent behavior could also be \nexplained (as I explained it to myself) by \"incredible hulk\" \nsyndrome. When he gets upset (as when he charged the audience or \nfought Severian) he flies into a rage, but is analytical otherwise.\n\nPaul\n\n\nOn Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Bruce Hayles \n wrote:\nCraig, that was exactly my understanding of it too. I don't have the \nbook with me, but I remember Severian saying something that \nindicates that that is also his interpretation.\n\n\nOn Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Craig Brewer \nwrote:\nNot sure about the rest, but I assume that \"You -- strike off\" has \nto do with Severian \"striking off\" peoples' heads.\n\nFrom: Matt Teel \n\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Monday, December 29, 2008 1:12:06 PM\n\nSubject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders\n\nHm, now that is interesting, Witz. Maybe if we combine this with \nBruce's observation that Baldanders' hormones may be playing with \nhis personality, and Dave's observation that he's only pretending to \nbe asleep and is actually awake, we may get at the root of this \nenigmatic little scene.\n\nMatt\n\n--- On Mon, 12/29/08, Son of Witz wrote:\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, December 29, 2008, 5:27 PM\n\nOn Dec 29, 2008, at 5:39 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm wondering about the short section in Chapter XV\n(\"Baldanders\"), in\nwhich Baldanders seems to be talking in his sleep. Severian is \nhalf\nawake\nand responding to what he thinks Baldanders is saying. Any \nthoughts" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on\nwhat's really going on there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Baldanders says four things: (1) Never.\" (2)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Baldanders.\" (3)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"You--strike off.\" (4) \"Tomorrow, then.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The scene is obviously meant to accomplish something, but I can't\nfigure\nout what. Severian's answers\n simply recap things that have\nalready been\nestablished, but I can't believe Wolfe just wanted to make sure we\nknew\nthat Severian had been tossed out of the guild and is headed toward" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thrax,\nor whatever. So, any ideas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He wanted to make sure we knew that Baldanders knew." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Knew that he was the New Sun to be?\n\nsomething like\n(you, the New Sun) \"Never\"\n\n\n(the New Sun will be ) \"Baldanders\"\n\"You--strike off.\" (Get the hell out of here)\n\"Tomorrow, then.\" (we will dispute this another day)\n\n\nsomething like that?\n\n~witz\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90812291737p1fc3aa1es540b08346ac356f4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T01:37:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<51490DE3-A28A-498E-8382-303F555397D6@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incidentally, \"strike off\" can also mean \"get going\", as in \"to strike off\non one's own\". Perhaps Baldanders is just telling Severian to leave him.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n,I had the same thought about striking off heads, then checked the book.\nSeverian interprets Baldanders this way.\nbut as Paul points out Severian is often pretty off base. I think Wolfe\ndoes this as misdirection. we get a sort of decent 'explanation' for one of\nthe four statements, but if he's referring to his headsman role,\n\"You--strike off.\" would end with a question mark. no?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0812291800j7ae2f9fetd825faf2bcd78293@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T02:00:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<51490DE3-A28A-498E-8382-303F555397D6@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This scene reminds me of Moby Dick, where Ishmael has to sleep next to\nQueequeg at the inn. Looking back at Moby Dick, I feel sure Wolfe is\nreferring to Melville here. Melville makes reference several times to a\ncounterpane in Chs. 3 and 4, and Severian writes that before going to bed,\n\"I took of my cloak and spread it on the worn counterpane.\"\n\nI think the bit about striking off is a bit of picaresque humor in the vane\nof, say, Moby Dick, but it is a mystery to me what Baldanders means about\n\"Never,\" unless they have something to do with the spooky dreams he reports\nhaving had.\n\nOT: Has anyone ever read John Myers Myers's *Silverlock*? Recommend it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:00 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI had the same thought about striking off heads, then checked the book.\nSeverian interprets Baldanders this way.\nbut as Paul points out Severian is often pretty off base. I think Wolfe\ndoes this as misdirection. we get a sort of decent 'explanation' for one of\nthe four statements, but if he's referring to his headsman role,\n\"You--strike off.\" would end with a question mark. no?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52793.198.1230605069.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T02:44:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silverlock", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0812291800j7ae2f9fetd825faf2bcd78293@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OT: Has anyone ever read John Myers Myers's *Silverlock*? Recommend it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes to the first, maybe to the second--I love it, and re-read it\nregularly, but it's easy to imagine someone not liking its mannered and\nsomewhat goofy style. If you like other wise-cracking,\nSaturday-Evening-Post-ish fantasies of its (rough) period (e.g., _The\nCircus of Dr. Lao_, _Jurgen_, _Messer Marco Polo_, _The Night-Life of the\nGods_, _The Crock Of Gold_, _Fancies And Goodnights_) you should read it\npost-haste.\n\nIf not, it still might be worth a shot (since, unlike any of those books\nexcept _Jurgen_ and _F&G_, it transcends that sub-genre), but maybe it\nshouldn't top your want list." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12528.17570.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T15:19:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silverlock", "in_reply_to": "<52793.198.1230605069.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I enjoy it immensely, as well. But even if it's not your cup of tea, I've heard a majority of \"new wave\" writers often cite it as an early influence on them, even though it isn't \"new wave,\" itself.\n\n\n----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Tim Walters \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Monday, December 29, 2008 8:44:29 PM\nSubject: (urth) Silverlock\nOT: Has anyone ever read John Myers Myers's *Silverlock*? Recommend it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes to the first, maybe to the second--I love it, and re-read it\nregularly, but it's easy to imagine someone not liking its mannered and\nsomewhat goofy style. If you like other wise-cracking,\nSaturday-Evening-Post-ish fantasies of its (rough) period (e.g., _The\nCircus of Dr. Lao_, _Jurgen_, _Messer Marco Polo_, _The Night-Life of the\nGods_, _The Crock Of Gold_, _Fancies And Goodnights_) you should read it\npost-haste.\n\nIf not, it still might be worth a shot (since, unlike any of those books\nexcept _Jurgen_ and _F&G_, it transcends that sub-genre), but maybe it\nshouldn't top your want list." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495A3E08.3050205@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-30T15:28:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0812291800j7ae2f9fetd825faf2bcd78293@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always linked these 2 scenes in my mind, but never knew what to make of it .... Homage, perhaps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:00:41 -0600\nFrom: \"Matthew Groves\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n\t<39ed084f0812291800j7ae2f9fetd825faf2bcd78293 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThis scene reminds me of Moby Dick, where Ishmael has to sleep next to\nQueequeg at the inn. Looking back at Moby Dick, I feel sure Wolfe is\nreferring to Melville here. Melville makes reference several times to a\ncounterpane in Chs. 3 and 4, and Severian writes that before going to bed,\n\"I took of my cloak and spread it on the worn counterpane.\"\n\nI think the bit about striking off is a bit of picaresque humor in the vane\nof, say, Moby Dick, but it is a mystery to me what Baldanders means about\n\"Never,\" unless they have something to do with the spooky dreams he reports\nhaving had." } ] }, { "message_id": "<734548.52869.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T15:38:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<495A3E08.3050205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian as (less self-conscious) Ahab?\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:28:08 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders\n\nI have always linked these 2 scenes in my mind, but never knew what to make of it .... Homage, perhaps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:00:41 -0600\nFrom: \"Matthew Groves\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T19:07:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silverlock", "in_reply_to": "<52793.198.1230605069.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 29, 2008, at 8:44 PM, Tim Walters wrote:\nOT: Has anyone ever read John Myers Myers's *Silverlock*? \nRecommend it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes to the first, maybe to the second--I love it, and re-read it\nregularly, but it's easy to imagine someone not liking its mannered \nand\nsomewhat goofy style. If you like other wise-cracking,\nSaturday-Evening-Post-ish fantasies of its (rough) period (e.g., _The\nCircus of Dr. Lao_, _Jurgen_, _Messer Marco Polo_, _The Night-Life \nof the\nGods_, _The Crock Of Gold_, _Fancies And Goodnights_) you should \nread it\npost-haste.\n\nIf not, it still might be worth a shot (since, unlike any of those \nbooks\nexcept _Jurgen_ and _F&G_, it transcends that sub-genre), but maybe it\nshouldn't top your want list." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, I dug it highly too. Admittedly, the roll-around-in-steaming- \npiles-of-allusions isn't as magical to me as it was in high school, \nand these days Jasper Fforde does that really well....but I too reread \nit every couple of years.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0812301112qb04c035q8c74bb5419c2004a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T19:12:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sleeping Baldanders", "in_reply_to": "<495A3E08.3050205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, homage, I think. It might even be winkingly self-referential.\nWolfe is laying his \"cloak\" -- TBotNS -- over the \"worn counterpane\"\nof Melville's Moby Dick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 9:28 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nI have always linked these 2 scenes in my mind, but never knew what to make of it .... Homage, perhaps.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:00:41 -0600\nFrom: \"Matthew Groves\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sleeping Baldanders" } ] } ] }