{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5295", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5295, "subject": "Sapphire Star", "messages": 17, "voices": 8, "first": "2008-12-30T00:12:43+00:00", "last": "2009-01-07T17:28:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-30T00:12:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thinking about the symbolic relationship between the Claw and the \nWhite Fountain, I looked through some of my mother in-law's crystal \nbooks for reference.\n\nIn \"Healing with Gemstones and Crystals\" by Diane Stein, which is \napparently heavily influenced by this Plieadians new age alien- \nchannelling cultish scene, I found the following entry on Star \nSapphire as oddly appropriate to Severian & tBotNS.\n\nSapphire-Star (natural only)\ncolor: blue and silver\nChakra: Causal Body\n*Promotes connection with other-dimensional and other-planetary \ninformation for healing oneself and others\n*Aids teachers of healing and healers in becoming clear channels for \nhealing, facilitates connection and working with angelic Be-ings in \nhealing\n*Supports those in service to others and the planet; aids becoming an \nold soul, becoming a bodhisattva\n*Eases healer's burnout, aids healers' own healing needs\n\n\n\nanyway, I thought it was a funny bit of gold found in some shit.\nthe way the writer dropped the alien theories as fact was quite \nentertaining." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49598B9F.5070109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-30T02:46:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That does point up something germane, however. The Claw's colors are blue and white on the outside (sky, sun) and red and black (green??) on the inside (thorn, blood). None of these has anything to do with Severian's iconography (black). And indeed Severian believes the Claw is separate from himself until he is shown otherwise.\n\nPresumably sapphire is connected to healing in some reality-based tradition. But I don't find any evidence of it. I did find the following:\n\n\" Symbolic precious stones by the early Christian artists have been alluded to by several ancient writers. Conspicuous among these was Marbodeus, Bishop of Rennes, who wrote (as before mentioned) at the commencement of the twelfth century.\n\nThe blue-coloured Sapphire is an emblem of heaven, virtue, truth, \nconstancy, heavenly love, and contemplation. [NOT HEALING!!!]\n\n\"The azure light of Sapphire's stone\n\nResembles that celestial throne,\n\nA symbol of each simple heart\n\nThat grasps in hope the better part,\n\nWhose life each holy deed combines,\n\nAnd in the light of virtue shines.\"\n\nIn his \"Commentary,\" Marbodeus says, \"The Sapphire is of the colour of \nthe sky. It signifies, then, that while they be yet on earth, set their \naffections on things above, and despise things terrestrial.\" \"\n\nMakes sense for the New Sun, don't it? And Wolfe, who must have done at least a little research into Byzantine icons and early Christian art, hid Severian's blood inside a blue stone rather than go for the obvious carbuncle (blood of christ) or the imperial \"sardius\":\n\n\n\"The Sardius, with its purple red,\n\nSets forth their merit who have bled,\n\nThe martyr-band, now blest above,\n\nThat agoniz'd for Jesu's love.\"\n\nEesh.\n\nI wonder, has anyone considered that Severian's iconic color is literally the color of a black hole?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:12:43 -0800\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: (urth) Sapphire Star" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0812291930k29ce0f6fs5a519bc86c1f0e11@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-30T03:30:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "<49598B9F.5070109@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another point that may be of interest regarding red within or beneath blue.\n\nIn Byzantine art, red is the color of divinity, blue the color of\nhumanity. Christ is therefore often shown with blue over red--the\ndivine \"putting on\" the human form. (Mary, in contrast, wears red\nover blue, the human taken up by divine grace)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/29/08, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat does point up something germane, however. The Claw's colors are blue\nand white on the outside (sky, sun) and red and black (green??) on the\ninside (thorn, blood). None of these has anything to do with Severian's\niconography (black). And indeed Severian believes the Claw is separate from\nhimself until he is shown otherwise.\n\nPresumably sapphire is connected to healing in some reality-based tradition.\nBut I don't find any evidence of it. I did find the following:\n\n\" Symbolic precious stones by the early Christian artists have been alluded\nto by several ancient writers. Conspicuous among these was Marbodeus, Bishop\nof Rennes, who wrote (as before mentioned) at the commencement of the\ntwelfth century.\n\nThe blue-coloured Sapphire is an emblem of heaven, virtue, truth,\nconstancy, heavenly love, and contemplation. [NOT HEALING!!!]\n\n\"The azure light of Sapphire's stone\n\nResembles that celestial throne,\n\nA symbol of each simple heart\n\nThat grasps in hope the better part,\n\nWhose life each holy deed combines,\n\nAnd in the light of virtue shines.\"\n\nIn his \"Commentary,\" Marbodeus says, \"The Sapphire is of the colour of\nthe sky. It signifies, then, that while they be yet on earth, set their\naffections on things above, and despise things terrestrial.\" \"\n\nMakes sense for the New Sun, don't it? And Wolfe, who must have done at\nleast a little research into Byzantine icons and early Christian art, hid\nSeverian's blood inside a blue stone rather than go for the obvious\ncarbuncle (blood of christ) or the imperial \"sardius\":\n\n\n\"The Sardius, with its purple red,\n\nSets forth their merit who have bled,\n\nThe martyr-band, now blest above,\n\nThat agoniz'd for Jesu's love.\"\n\nEesh.\n\nI wonder, has anyone considered that Severian's iconic color is literally\nthe color of a black hole?\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:12:43 -0800\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: (urth) Sapphire Star" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495A4129.8070907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-30T15:41:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812291930k29ce0f6fs5a519bc86c1f0e11@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good to know!\n\nWolfe always weaves his fiction from existing threads, whether literary or real. In a sense, he's one of the most \"unoriginal\" and \"uncreative\" writers I can think of--in his use of words, for example. It's no surprise that he would follow some orthodoxy on Byzantine color schemes. \n\nIf I had half the knowledge in that man's head ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:30:31 -0500\nFrom: \"John Watkins\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sapphire Star" } ] }, { "message_id": "<76C664B2-8B89-4F96-9A10-DD13D886DD3F@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-30T18:36:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0812291930k29ce0f6fs5a519bc86c1f0e11@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the feedback.\nI think all the comments so far are on-point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 29, 2008, at 7:30 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nAnother point that may be of interest regarding red within or \nbeneath blue.\n\nIn Byzantine art, red is the color of divinity, blue the color of\nhumanity. Christ is therefore often shown with blue over red--the\ndivine \"putting on\" the human form. (Mary, in contrast, wears red\nover blue, the human taken up by divine grace)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had not noticed that yet. Great bit. I'll keep that in mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 30, 2008, at 7:41 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nGood to know!\n\nWolfe always weaves his fiction from existing threads, whether \nliterary or real. In a sense, he's one of the most \"unoriginal\" and \n\"uncreative\" writers I can think of--in his use of words, for \nexample. It's no surprise that he would follow some orthodoxy on \nByzantine color schemes.\nIf I had half the knowledge in that man's head ...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "this reminds me of working with Secret Chiefs 3 a bit. He works so \nstrongly from a body of tradition that when design decisions need to \nbe made, especially in terms of color choices, we can just reference \nthe tradition. That's one of the strengths of utilizing these forms. \nThey have a deeply worked over consistency in symbolism, despite the \nthousands of years of variants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/29/08, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That does point up something germane, however. The Claw's colors \nare blue\nand white on the outside (sky, sun) and red and black (green??) on \nthe\ninside (thorn, blood). None of these has anything to do with \nSeverian's\niconography (black). And indeed Severian believes the Claw is \nseparate from\nhimself until he is shown otherwise.\n\nPresumably sapphire is connected to healing in some reality-based \ntradition.\nBut I don't find any evidence of it. I did find the following:\n\n\" Symbolic precious stones by the early Christian artists have been \nalluded\nto by several ancient writers. Conspicuous among these was \nMarbodeus, Bishop\nof Rennes, who wrote (as before mentioned) at the commencement of the\ntwelfth century.\n\nThe blue-coloured Sapphire is an emblem of heaven, virtue, truth,\nconstancy, heavenly love, and contemplation. [NOT HEALING!!!]\n\n\"The azure light of Sapphire's stone\nResembles that celestial throne,\nA symbol of each simple heart\nThat grasps in hope the better part,\nWhose life each holy deed combines,\nAnd in the light of virtue shines.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " This is great. the \"healing\" bit was a surprise. The thing I was \npondering when I went looking was the relationship of the stone to the \nstar.\nThe Claw is essentially the earthly stand-in /counterpart to the sun. \nAs NewSun, he carries the Star home, in a sense, bringing it across \ntime and space. As Severian, he's carried the claw around the \ncommonwealth. When he finally gives the thorn away to the \nChilliarch in the Age of the Autarch, the very next thing he walks the \ncorridors of time and comes out of his cenotaph obelisk, where he \nimmediately sees his Star.\n\"As the stone swung back, I saw the starry sky and the single bright \nstar (blue now with it's velocity) that was myself\"\nthen again in \"the Morning Tide\" he says the Claw of the Conciliator \nhas returned, then identifies it as the star, then as himself.\nanyway, it hadn't dawned on me till this point that the Claw is \nsymbolic of his Star more than anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In his \"Commentary,\" Marbodeus says, \"The Sapphire is of the colour \nof\nthe sky. It signifies, then, that while they be yet on earth, set \ntheir\naffections on things above, and despise things terrestrial.\" \"\n\nMakes sense for the New Sun, don't it? And Wolfe, who must have \ndone at\nleast a little research into Byzantine icons and early Christian \nart, hid\nSeverian's blood inside a blue stone rather than go for the obvious\ncarbuncle (blood of christ) or the imperial \"sardius\":\n\nI wonder, has anyone considered that Severian's iconic color is \nliterally\nthe color of a black hole?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've noticed that.\nit really works well combined with the Avern, which I also see as a \nsymbol for Severian as New Sun.\nA white blossom surrounded in irridescent black blades.\nI don't know how to put it into words, but as I've been drawing new \nsun icons, the black hole aspect of the black has seemed very important.\n\nthat being said, I was thinking that Autarch Severian would probably \nnot be thought of in Fuligin, no?\nHe's presumably wearing Argent robes in the ceremony with the skulls \nbefore leaving Urth.\n\"Soon I must don robes of argent, the color that is more pure than \nwhite\"\nwhich of course speaks, by contrast, to the dichotomy of Severian's role\n\n\nthanks for the additional detail, David & John,\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:12:43 -0800\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: (urth) Sapphire Star" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495AE389.4080901@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2008-12-31T03:14:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "<76C664B2-8B89-4F96-9A10-DD13D886DD3F@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz wrote (among other things):\n\n\n\"As the stone swung back, I saw the starry sky and the single bright \nstar (blue now with its velocity) that was myself.\"\n\n\nI had forgotten that line---it does clearly and cleverly link the Claw with the New Sun. Like the Claw, then, you would assume, the New Sun draws its power from Severian, not the reverse. Which seems counterintuitive. \n\nBut the link also suggests that neither one (Sun or Severian) is the only and original or \"true\" entity. Both are objects in some sense, \"clothes\" worn by the deity. Much as SoW has suggested." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-12-31T16:00:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "<495AE389.4080901@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the connection of the blue Claw with Severian's star was doppler\nblue shift as the star moved toward Urth. Perhaps religious significance \nwas also intended.\n \n \n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nLife on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista?. \nhttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12B9F55E-B5AA-4004-8D98-2A08D9972237@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-12-31T17:24:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 31, 2008, at 8:00 AM, b sharp wrote:\n\n\nI thought the connection of the blue Claw with Severian's star was \ndoppler\nblue shift as the star moved toward Urth. Perhaps religious \nsignificance\nwas also intended.\n\n\n-bsharp" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, if it can be understood in scientific terms, it can't possibly \nbe a spiritual metaphor.\n:P\nsymbols in stories can operate at multiple levels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 30, 2008, at 7:14 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWitz wrote (among other things):\n\n\n\"As the stone swung back, I saw the starry sky and the single \nbright star (blue now with its velocity) that was myself.\"\n\n\nI had forgotten that line---it does clearly and cleverly link the \nClaw with the New Sun. Like the Claw, then, you would assume, the \nNew Sun draws its power from Severian, not the reverse. Which seems \ncounterintuitive.\nBut the link also suggests that neither one (Sun or Severian) is the \nonly and original or \"true\" entity. Both are objects in some sense, \n\"clothes\" worn by the deity. Much as SoW has suggested." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't jibe with the first part about \"power from Severian\"\nbut I especially agree with your comment about \"clothes worn by the \ndeity\"\n\nWhen I was on my first pass, I thought early on that Severian was some \naspect of the Claw, but didn't understand the connection to the \nConciliator. Now I see the Claw and the Star as tools the Conciliator/ \nNewSun wields to do his work. The Claw is symbolic of the Star. On \none hand, it helps awaken Severian to his path, but then also stands \nin for his promise in the 1000+ years between Conciliator & New Sun. \nIt's almost literally a promise of the star that the Conciliator-Come- \nAgain will bring.\n\nOne of the biggest gaps in the story is \"How did the Claw get enclosed \nin sapphire corundum?\"\nI've seen a post here that said synthetic corundum crystals can be \nmade synthetically, but at heats that would destroy the organic claw.\nof course, that's our tech, not Hierotech. One wonders how that \nhappened. Who would have done it? Followers of the myth? Pellerines? \nyet the Pelerines thought the thorn was just a flaw in the heart.\n\nHow do you all picture this thing?\nI imagined it as rough cut crystal until Urth showed it's origin in \nthe Thorn. with that in mind, I figure it would be a synthetic \nenclosure, and as such would NOT look like it was mined from the \nearth, rather it would probably be smooth or with faceted cuts. It's \ndescribed as about the size of an orichalk. Do you see it as round? \nDo you see it as the shape of the thorn + the thickness of the \ncrystal. It's weird because most of us probably developed mental \nimages before the thorn aspect was emphasized. I figure it would be \nshaped like a crystal smilodon tooth.\n\n?\n~SonOfWitz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<440713759-1230744389-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-622100245-@bxe264.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2008-12-31T17:26:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "<12B9F55E-B5AA-4004-8D98-2A08D9972237@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mike....what's your email? I wanna forward you something\nSend to hammstu at sbcglobal.net\nStuck in a blizzard might not make it home tonight...glad I cancelled my NYEve gig...\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Son of Witz \n\nDate: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:24:23 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Sapphire Star" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 31, 2008, at 8:00 AM, b sharp wrote:\n\n\nI thought the connection of the blue Claw with Severian's star was \ndoppler\nblue shift as the star moved toward Urth. Perhaps religious \nsignificance\nwas also intended.\n\n\n-bsharp" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, if it can be understood in scientific terms, it can't possibly \nbe a spiritual metaphor.\n:P\nsymbols in stories can operate at multiple levels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 30, 2008, at 7:14 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWitz wrote (among other things):\n\n\n\"As the stone swung back, I saw the starry sky and the single \nbright star (blue now with its velocity) that was myself.\"\n\n\nI had forgotten that line---it does clearly and cleverly link the \nClaw with the New Sun. Like the Claw, then, you would assume, the \nNew Sun draws its power from Severian, not the reverse. Which seems \ncounterintuitive.\nBut the link also suggests that neither one (Sun or Severian) is the \nonly and original or \"true\" entity. Both are objects in some sense, \n\"clothes\" worn by the deity. Much as SoW has suggested." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't jibe with the first part about \"power from Severian\"\nbut I especially agree with your comment about \"clothes worn by the \ndeity\"\n\nWhen I was on my first pass, I thought early on that Severian was some \naspect of the Claw, but didn't understand the connection to the \nConciliator. Now I see the Claw and the Star as tools the Conciliator/ \nNewSun wields to do his work. The Claw is symbolic of the Star. On \none hand, it helps awaken Severian to his path, but then also stands \nin for his promise in the 1000+ years between Conciliator & New Sun. \nIt's almost literally a promise of the star that the Conciliator-Come- \nAgain will bring.\n\nOne of the biggest gaps in the story is \"How did the Claw get enclosed \nin sapphire corundum?\"\nI've seen a post here that said synthetic corundum crystals can be \nmade synthetically, but at heats that would destroy the organic claw.\nof course, that's our tech, not Hierotech. One wonders how that \nhappened. Who would have done it? Followers of the myth? Pellerines? \nyet the Pelerines thought the thorn was just a flaw in the heart.\n\nHow do you all picture this thing?\nI imagined it as rough cut crystal until Urth showed it's origin in \nthe Thorn. with that in mind, I figure it would be a synthetic \nenclosure, and as such would NOT look like it was mined from the \nearth, rather it would probably be smooth or with faceted cuts. It's \ndescribed as about the size of an orichalk. Do you see it as round? \nDo you see it as the shape of the thorn + the thickness of the \ncrystal. It's weird because most of us probably developed mental \nimages before the thorn aspect was emphasized. I figure it would be \nshaped like a crystal smilodon tooth.\n\n?\n~SonOfWitz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495C2D9A.8060608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-01T02:42:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "<440713759-1230744389-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-622100245-@bxe264.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Iconic significance---yes. The doppler shift is merely a brilliant sci-fi material explanation. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:00:18 -0500\nFrom: b sharp \nSubject: (urth) Sapphire Star\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\n\nI thought the connection of the blue Claw with Severian's star was doppler\nblue shift as the star moved toward Urth. Perhaps religious significance \nwas also intended.\n \n \n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495C2F5D.6060300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-01T02:50:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "<495C2D9A.8060608@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I have always preferred to think of the Claw as a real sapphire. The thorn would have had to have somehow been subjected to geological forces and times. But I prefer this only because that would make it an unfathomable miracle, which seems appropriate. \n\nHiero technology is of course another viable approach, but one that makes the whole Conciliator thing a complete charade---don't look at the little man behind the curtain." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:24:23 -0800\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sapphire Star\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <12B9F55E-B5AA-4004-8D98-2A08D9972237 at butcherbaker.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n****************************************************************\n\nHow do you all picture this thing?\nI imagined it as rough cut crystal until Urth showed it's origin in \nthe Thorn. with that in mind, I figure it would be a synthetic \nenclosure, and as such would NOT look like it was mined from the \nearth, rather it would probably be smooth or with faceted cuts. It's \ndescribed as about the size of an orichalk. Do you see it as round? \nDo you see it as the shape of the thorn + the thickness of the \ncrystal. It's weird because most of us probably developed mental \nimages before the thorn aspect was emphasized. I figure it would be \nshaped like a crystal smilodon tooth.\n\n?\n~SonOfWitz\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-01T03:38:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "<495C2F5D.6060300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah. if we're gonna imagine it's origin, we might as well guess \nsomeone used the corridors to plant it back long enough for the \ncrystal to grow around it, then show up to harvest it. :D\n~" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 31, 2008, at 6:50 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nActually, I have always preferred to think of the Claw as a real \nsapphire. The thorn would have had to have somehow been subjected to \ngeological forces and times. But I prefer this only because that \nwould make it an unfathomable miracle, which seems appropriate.\nHiero technology is of course another viable approach, but one that \nmakes the whole Conciliator thing a complete charade---don't look at \nthe little man behind the curtain.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:24:23 -0800\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sapphire Star\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <12B9F55E-B5AA-4004-8D98-2A08D9972237 at butcherbaker.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\n****************************************************************\n\nHow do you all picture this thing?\nI imagined it as rough cut crystal until Urth showed it's origin in \nthe Thorn. with that in mind, I figure it would be a synthetic \nenclosure, and as such would NOT look like it was mined from the \nearth, rather it would probably be smooth or with faceted cuts. \nIt's described as about the size of an orichalk. Do you see it as \nround? Do you see it as the shape of the thorn + the thickness of \nthe crystal. It's weird because most of us probably developed \nmental images before the thorn aspect was emphasized. I figure it \nwould be shaped like a crystal smilodon tooth.\n\n?\n~SonOfWitz\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 081231-0, 12/31/2008\nTested on: 12/31/2008 9:50:06 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<495D0B75.5070802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-01T18:29:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nyeah. if we're gonna imagine it's origin, we might as well guess \nsomeone used the corridors to plant it back long enough for the \ncrystal to grow around it, then show up to harvest it. :D\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Corundum crystals are formed in nature under extreme heat and pressure, \nprobably sufficient to burn up the thorn inside. I think the original \nidea of an artificial sapphire which was created around the original \nrelic to honor it is the best so far.\n\nSpeaking of sapphires with religious significance, what about the \nsapphire of St. Edward the Confessor \n(http://jewelry-blog.internetstones.com/famous-gemstones/st-edwards-sapphire), \nnow part of the Imperial State Crown of Great Britain? There's a legend \nabout the pious king giving it to a beggar and having it show up again \nin the holy land." } ] }, { "message_id": "<978440.91079.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-02T02:32:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Meta-fictions", "in_reply_to": "<495C2F5D.6060300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just about done with Short Sun (again), but endings have me thinking again about the \"Appendices\" in New Sun and their absence in Long/Short. Has there been any speculation on the role of \"Gene Wolfe\" (the \"translator\" who got his hands on Severian's manuscript) with Long/Short Sun or even (if they're distinct in the end) _The Book of Silk_ and _The Book of Horn_?\n\nOf course, although we get metafiction in both, we don't get the same type of metafiction. Horn writing long sun and Hide/Horn/wives writing _The Book of Horn_ is one thing...but what is the relation of these later compositors to \"Gene Wolfe\" in New Sun? Any significance to their difference? Or did he just give up the pretense?\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901012122y767e94eerc555894147244a14@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-02T05:22:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Meta-fictions", "in_reply_to": "<978440.91079.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have a good answer for you. I don't think the \"Gene Wolfe\" persona\nplays a very large role in TBotNS. I think that, as you say, he just gave\nup the pretense. Probably because another pers?nal layer -- a translator --\nwould have distracted from the issues of identity he was raising with\nHorn/Silk, which have become more central in TBotSS than was the case with\nSeverian/Thecla in TBotNS. Wolfe does insert himself into the text of\n\"Horn's Book\" as \"a man in Urbasecundus\" (i.e., Second City -- Chicago) \"who\nwas said to have produced a similar book\" (OBW 51)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nJust about done with Short Sun (again), but endings have me thinking again\nabout the \"Appendices\" in New Sun and their absence in Long/Short. Has there\nbeen any speculation on the role of \"Gene Wolfe\" (the \"translator\" who got\nhis hands on Severian's manuscript) with Long/Short Sun or even (if they're\ndistinct in the end) _The Book of Silk_ and _The Book of Horn_?\n\nOf course, although we get metafiction in both, we don't get the same type\nof metafiction. Horn writing long sun and Hide/Horn/wives writing _The Book\nof Horn_ is one thing...but what is the relation of these later compositors\nto \"Gene Wolfe\" in New Sun? Any significance to their difference? Or did he\njust give up the pretense?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-06T23:37:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "<495D0B75.5070802@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "WOAH!!!!!!\nI've searched the archives a few different ways and I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned.\n\nI'm not going to bother to attribute the quotes. it's just internet fodder and most I've found are in synch with each other. Most seem to be themselves quoting this Book of the Hopi by Frank Waters:\nhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140045279/morganasobservatA/\n\nSaquasohuh Kachina, the Blue Star of Hopi Prophecy\n\n(I has a rare TV session on sunday and caught some 2012 show in History Channel's \"Armageddon Week\", and was completely struck by this.)\n\n\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nAn ancient Hopi Indian prophecy states, \"When the Blue Star Kachina makes its appearance in the heavens, the Fifth World will emerge\". This will be the Day of Purification. The Hopi name for the star Sirius is Blue Star Kachina. It will come when the Saquasohuh (Blue Star) Kachina dances in the plaza and removes his mask. \n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\"That time is not far off. It will come when the Saquasohuh (Blue Star) Kachina dances in the plaza and removes his mask. He represents a blue star, far off and yet invisible, which will make its appearance soon. rld. This same song was sung in 1961 during the Wuwuchim ceremony. \n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nOne of the bits I read, which was pretty new-agey, was that the Blue Star would be a New Sun. I'm pretty sure there was an Obelisk related to this blue Star Kachina in the show, but I don't know what it was called. I think it sounded like \"Hen-Day\". Did anyone else catch that show?\n\nAnyway, it seems like one more connection to Severian's Blue Star and that dreaded/anticipated world redeemer hitting the Reset Button.\n\n\n~SonOfWitz\n\nps,\nas I was watching this 2012 thing, I wondered if we won't all be completely sick of cataclysmic transformation prophesies if nothing happens on 12/21/2012) It's sort of funny seeing this stuff on TV, it's been an underground meme for so long, but now we've all got Armageddon Fever.\n\"I was into the Apocalypse BEFORE it was trendy, man\" :-D" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4964E64B.10501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-07T17:28:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sapphire Star", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. The only question is, WHICH Apocalypse will we be sick of? There are so many to choose from!\n\nInteresting bit about the Hopi. I wonder if Inca beliefs correspond at all. It's true that Sirius is blue ... and as the brightest star, it is important in many traditional astronomies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:37:42 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Sapphire Star\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\n\n\n\n~SonOfWitz\n\nps,\nas I was watching this 2012 thing, I wondered if we won't all be completely sick of cataclysmic transformation prophesies if nothing happens on 12/21/2012) It's sort of funny seeing this stuff on TV, it's been an underground meme for so long, but now we've all got Armageddon Fever.\n\"I was into the Apocalypse BEFORE it was trendy, man\" :-D \n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] } ] }