{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5299", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5299, "subject": "Long Sun Laughs", "messages": 61, "voices": 16, "first": "2009-01-07T17:22:55+00:00", "last": "2009-01-25T00:01:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-07T17:22:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm midway through Lake of the Long Sun, and loving this series so far. At this point, it seems much more straightforward than BotNS, but, of course, there is all sorts of suspicious stuff under the surface. \n\nno spoilers please, I've skipped over all the Long Sun / Silk discussions.\nI think I picked up a few already. Somewhere I heard the whorl was a generation starship, and that seems to be, though I don't think you're supposed to know for sure as you're reading it.\n\nAnyway, the reason I wanted to post about it at this point because this book seems also a lot funnier than BotNS. \nThere is something really hilarious about Dr. Crane's wrapping. The fact that they have to kick it, and flog it, beat it and lash it. too funny. it strikes me as some sort of sublimated twist on self flagellation. I laugh every time he does it, this strange violent pause in the middle of business.\n\nbut I laughed my ass off this morning, walking down Cyril Magnin, reading this passage in Lake.\n\"Men and women, made of mud (originally by the Outsider, according to one somewhat doubtful passage in the Writings) turned to dust at last.\"\n\n\"Somewhat doubtful\" LOL!!!!!!!\n\n\nI'll spare anyone my speculations at this point, but I am wondering about if there is a difference between the Chrasmological Writings and the Charismatic Writings, or if \"Charismatic\" was a typo. At least one point he mentions the Chrasmatists, so I thought maybe wolfe just had a brain-fart that the editors didnt' notice. There's at least one of those in NewSun, typo or brain-fart, regarding the Amphisbaena, where \"hand\" is written instead of \"head\"\n\nall right, this post probably isn't useful to anyone, but I had to talk about this book a bit. It's going to be interesting to read the archives here about Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-09T19:22:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "wow.\nthe ending of Lake was crazy awesome!\nI'm so glad that the false pantheon and the nature of the Whorl CAN'T be the whole mystery, because that was too easy to suss out.\n\nwithout knowing the rest, I'd say for me, the most profound moment was when Silk looked out the (Loganstone ?) and saw the stars and knew Pas was minor compared to what was out there, and he saw the REAL SUN peeking over the plain of the starcrosser. Great stuff. a gnostic metaphor of a world with a false creator and help from outside that creation. The Real Sun (God) outshining a False Sun (demiurge). beautifully illustrated. I love how he flees, terrified from having seen the real sun.\n\ncan't wait to see where this thing goes...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901091130l2ad8e29fg3258e685fc96241e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-09T19:30:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I loved the ending of Lake, too--it's when I moved from liking the\nbooks to LOVING them. Just, right in the middle of this sort of\nreligious mystery story, a full on BOND VILLAIN appears and is\nsimultaneously scary and kind of funny and awesome. And then I\nrealized what others have pointed out, which is that the first book is\na crime story and the second book is a spy story and Gene is taking\ngenres apart to show he can.\n\nGreat stuff. I'm reading this starting sometime next month." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/9/09, Son of Witz wrote:\nwow.\nthe ending of Lake was crazy awesome!\nI'm so glad that the false pantheon and the nature of the Whorl CAN'T be the whole mystery, because that was too easy to suss out.\n\nwithout knowing the rest, I'd say for me, the most profound moment was when Silk looked out the (Loganstone ?) and saw the stars and knew Pas was minor compared to what was out there, and he saw the REAL SUN peeking over the plain of the starcrosser. Great stuff. a gnostic metaphor of a world with a false creator and help from outside that creation. The Real Sun (God) outshining a False Sun (demiurge). beautifully illustrated. I love how he flees, terrified from having seen the real sun.\n\ncan't wait to see where this thing goes....\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090109194710.SSFEF.57618.root@cdptpa-web22-z02>", "from": { "name": "rkenneth at nycap.rr.com", "address": "rkenneth at nycap.rr.com" }, "date": "2009-01-09T19:47:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi, all,\n\nBrand new to the list, and I'm reading Long Sun for the first time, as well. At present, I'm about 200 pages into Calde of the Long Sun and loving it. It's interesting to read the reactions of anther reading this series for the first time, as well.\n\nI had the same reaction to the final scenes. By the end of Lake, the story's been kicked up quite a few notches." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---- Son of Witz wrote: \nwow.\nthe ending of Lake was crazy awesome!\nI'm so glad that the false pantheon and the nature of the Whorl CAN'T be the whole mystery, because that was too easy to suss out.\n\nwithout knowing the rest, I'd say for me, the most profound moment was when Silk looked out the (Loganstone ?) and saw the stars and knew Pas was minor compared to what was out there, and he saw the REAL SUN peeking over the plain of the starcrosser. Great stuff. a gnostic metaphor of a world with a false creator and help from outside that creation. The Real Sun (God) outshining a False Sun (demiurge). beautifully illustrated. I love how he flees, terrified from having seen the real sun.\n\ncan't wait to see where this thing goes....\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-09T20:01:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<20090109194710.SSFEF.57618.root@cdptpa-web22-z02>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "hahaha,\nyeah, it totally is a Bond Villian. great and ridiculous.\nand dude getting chomped by a giant fish? priceless. \nyou're right about notching up from liking to loving at that point.\n\nand, welcome rkenneth, from another sort of noob.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Friday, January 9, 2009 11:30 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nI loved the ending of Lake, too--it's when I moved from liking the\nbooks to LOVING them. Just, right in the middle of this sort of\nreligious mystery story, a full on BOND VILLAIN appears and is\nsimultaneously scary and kind of funny and awesome. And then I\nrealized what others have pointed out, which is that the first book is\na crime story and the second book is a spy story and Gene is taking\ngenres apart to show he can.\n\nGreat stuff. I'm reading this starting sometime next month.\n\nOn 1/9/09, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wow.\nthe ending of Lake was crazy awesome!\nI'm so glad that the false pantheon and the nature of the Whorl CAN'T be the whole mystery, because that was too easy to suss out.\n\nwithout knowing the rest, I'd say for me, the most profound moment was when Silk looked out the (Loganstone ?) and saw the stars and knew Pas was minor compared to what was out there, and he saw the REAL SUN peeking over the plain of the starcrosser. Great stuff. a gnostic metaphor of a world with a false creator and help from outside that creation. The Real Sun (God) outshining a False Sun (demiurge). beautifully illustrated. I love how he flees, terrified from having seen the real sun.\n\ncan't wait to see where this thing goes....\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4967B7C0.5080108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-09T20:46:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901091130l2ad8e29fg3258e685fc96241e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nI loved the ending of Lake, too--it's when I moved from liking the\nbooks to LOVING them. Just, right in the middle of this sort of\nreligious mystery story, a full on BOND VILLAIN appears and is\nsimultaneously scary and kind of funny and awesome. And then I\nrealized what others have pointed out, which is that the first book is\na crime story and the second book is a spy story and Gene is taking\ngenres apart to show he can.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I liked \"Nightside\" too, with Silk as Father Brown and Auk as his \nFlambeau. Have you seen the article \"Five Steps Towards Briah\", which \ncontinues to track the genres of the next two books \n(http://artsweb.bham.ac.uk/jlaidlow/ultan/briah.htm/poti)? The next two \nbooks (for me) are a political thriller and a war story. The article has \na slightly different take." } ] }, { "message_id": "<822562.77925.qm@web81402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-01-09T21:01:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<4967B7C0.5080108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That link sounds interesting...but the link won't work for me....any other way to get there?\n\nS\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Friday, January 9, 2009, 12:46 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nI loved the ending of Lake, too--it's when I moved from liking the\nbooks to LOVING them. Just, right in the middle of this sort of\nreligious mystery story, a full on BOND VILLAIN appears and is\nsimultaneously scary and kind of funny and awesome. And then I\nrealized what others have pointed out, which is that the first book is\na crime story and the second book is a spy story and Gene is taking\ngenres apart to show he can.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I liked \"Nightside\" too, with Silk as Father Brown and Auk as his \nFlambeau. Have you seen the article \"Five Steps Towards Briah\", which\n\ncontinues to track the genres of the next two books \n(http://artsweb.bham.ac.uk/jlaidlow/ultan/briah.htm/poti)? The next two \nbooks (for me) are a political thriller and a war story. The article has \na slightly different take." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901091304j72143f4saeb73ba12e6cb550@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-09T21:04:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<4967B7C0.5080108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes I have, but as Son of Witz is on this thread (and now rkenneth as\nwell) I didn't want to get into discussion of the next two books,\nwhich are also excellent.\n\nBut yes, I did pick up on the Father Brown/Flambeau thing (I'm proud\nto say that I have read every Father Brown mystery), but that wasn't\nas glorious for me. Wolfe is a metaphysical Catholic writer, so I\nexpect to find Chesterton in his work, just like I expect to find\nBorges and Kafka for other reasons.\n\nThe stuff that blows my mind is the pulpy stuff that sneaks up on you.\n \"Lake of the Long Sun ends when Silk and Dr. Crane are interrogated\nby a super-strong android with the consciousness of a dead dictator in\nit.\" \"The Shadow of the Tortuter ends with Severian travelling with a\ncyborg, his resurrected grandmother, a variation on Frankenstein's\nmonster with his own android physician who's sort of a Doctor\nFrankenstein/Igor character, and a scientifically created sex\ngoddess.\" There's a glorious one in Short Sun too that I don't want\nto spoil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/9/09, Dave Tallman wrote:\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I loved the ending of Lake, too--it's when I moved from liking the\nbooks to LOVING them. Just, right in the middle of this sort of\nreligious mystery story, a full on BOND VILLAIN appears and is\nsimultaneously scary and kind of funny and awesome. And then I\nrealized what others have pointed out, which is that the first book is\na crime story and the second book is a spy story and Gene is taking\ngenres apart to show he can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I liked \"Nightside\" too, with Silk as Father Brown and Auk as his Flambeau.\nHave you seen the article \"Five Steps Towards Briah\", which continues to\ntrack the genres of the next two books\n(http://artsweb.bham.ac.uk/jlaidlow/ultan/briah.htm/poti)?\nThe next two books (for me) are a political thriller and a war story. The\narticle has a slightly different take.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-09T21:05:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901091304j72143f4saeb73ba12e6cb550@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.ultan.org.uk/five-steps-towards-briah/\n\nI backed up on the url and got a redirect to the newer Ultan.org blog.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That link sounds interesting...but the link won't work for me....any other way to get there?\n\nS\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Friday, January 9, 2009, 12:46 PM\n\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I loved the ending of Lake, too--it's when I moved from liking the\nbooks to LOVING them. Just, right in the middle of this sort of\nreligious mystery story, a full on BOND VILLAIN appears and is\nsimultaneously scary and kind of funny and awesome. And then I\nrealized what others have pointed out, which is that the first book is\na crime story and the second book is a spy story and Gene is taking\ngenres apart to show he can.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I liked \"Nightside\" too, with Silk as Father Brown and Auk as his \nFlambeau. Have you seen the article \"Five Steps Towards Briah\", which\n\ncontinues to track the genres of the next two books \n(http://artsweb.bham.ac.uk/jlaidlow/ultan/briah.htm/poti)? The next two \nbooks (for me) are a political thriller and a war story. The article has \na slightly different take.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-09T21:06:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes I have, but as Son of Witz is on this thread (and now rkenneth as\nwell) I didn't want to get into discussion of the next two books,\nwhich are also excellent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "MOST APPRECIATED." } ] }, { "message_id": "<26b0d2e40901091345y944978eg20034c9be5187f91@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Steve McCann", "address": "steve2mccann at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-09T21:45:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The below comment reminds me of Wolfe talking about fantasy in the interview\nthat was shared recently:\n\n\"Things could be different,\" says fantasy. \"They could be very, very\ndifferent just over that hill. Have hope.\"\nhttp://www.nebulaawards.com/index.php/interview/gene_wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nwithout knowing the rest, I'd say for me, the most profound moment was when\nSilk looked out the (Loganstone ?) and saw the stars and knew Pas was minor\ncompared to what was out there, and he saw the REAL SUN peeking over the\nplain of the starcrosser." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T15:16:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901091304j72143f4saeb73ba12e6cb550@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I finished Long Sun the other day.\nAn excellent book. serious page turner for me, burned through it \nreally fast.\ntoo fast, I'm sure, to catch all the hints, but the basic gist doesn't \nseem that obscure.\n\nthe basic gnostic setup is easy enough to read. the Five Steps \ntowards Briah article is very on-point, if you ask me. It hadn't \ndawned on me until reading that article that each book is a system to \nbe explored (and ultimately discarded). That of the inverted \nmatriarchy of Trivigaunte was easy enough to see. I loved all the \ngenre bending that this creates.\n\nThe comic relief is pretty damn funny. They're having these serious \ndiscussions and Oreb and the Catachrest keep popping up to color the \ntalks.\nAlways worth a laugh, though I'm not sure I'd agree if it were a \nmovie. The catachrest's speech was often impenetrable to me, as is \nappropriate to it's name, I guess.\n\nMy biggest question throughout the whole book was the nature of \nQuetzal. I find it interesting that the heads of this church are a \nfeathered serpent and an eel. I can't help but relate this to my \nfeelings (which I've expressed here before, and apologize in advance \nto the faithful) that the Catholic Church has long been usurped by \nvampires of sorts. I'm sure I'm not alone in that feeling, and I find \nit extremely provocative that a devout Catholic would set things up \nthat way. more testament to Wolfe's gutsiness. I can't help but feel \nthat Quetzal was shepherding his flock to Green as food. talk about a \nblood sacrifice. I assume it was him who got Teasel early on.\n\nI found the narrative device of Horn a bit implausible, but I suppose \nit's more plausible than something like Mary Shelley's Frankenstein's \nbooks within books. Hey, Books within books is a theme of Wolfe's, \nsame as Masks within Masks I guess. That conceit is so much more \ninteresting than the implausibility of a sideline party being able to \nwrite an insider's account, so I'll swallow it.\n\nHopefully Short Sun will shed some light on all this. Horn's detached \nwriting for the first long chapter is sort of maddening so far.\nalready a much different book than either New or Long.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 9, 2009, at 1:04 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nYes I have, but as Son of Witz is on this thread (and now rkenneth as\nwell) I didn't want to get into discussion of the next two books,\nwhich are also excellent.\n\nBut yes, I did pick up on the Father Brown/Flambeau thing (I'm proud\nto say that I have read every Father Brown mystery), but that wasn't\nas glorious for me. Wolfe is a metaphysical Catholic writer, so I\nexpect to find Chesterton in his work, just like I expect to find\nBorges and Kafka for other reasons.\n\nThe stuff that blows my mind is the pulpy stuff that sneaks up on you.\n\"Lake of the Long Sun ends when Silk and Dr. Crane are interrogated\nby a super-strong android with the consciousness of a dead dictator in\nit.\" \"The Shadow of the Tortuter ends with Severian travelling with a\ncyborg, his resurrected grandmother, a variation on Frankenstein's\nmonster with his own android physician who's sort of a Doctor\nFrankenstein/Igor character, and a scientifically created sex\ngoddess.\" There's a glorious one in Short Sun too that I don't want\nto spoil.\n\nOn 1/9/09, Dave Tallman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I loved the ending of Lake, too--it's when I moved from liking the\nbooks to LOVING them. Just, right in the middle of this sort of\nreligious mystery story, a full on BOND VILLAIN appears and is\nsimultaneously scary and kind of funny and awesome. And then I\nrealized what others have pointed out, which is that the first \nbook is\na crime story and the second book is a spy story and Gene is taking\ngenres apart to show he can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I liked \"Nightside\" too, with Silk as Father Brown and Auk as his \nFlambeau.\nHave you seen the article \"Five Steps Towards Briah\", which \ncontinues to\ntrack the genres of the next two books\n(http://artsweb.bham.ac.uk/jlaidlow/ultan/briah.htm/poti)?\nThe next two books (for me) are a political thriller and a war \nstory. The\narticle has a slightly different take.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901210723i42b9a121jffef14ea264a585c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T15:23:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nMy biggest question throughout the whole book was the nature of Quetzal. I\nfind it interesting that the heads of this church are a feathered serpent\nand an eel. I can't help but relate this to my feelings (which I've\nexpressed here before, and apologize in advance to the faithful) that the\nCatholic Church has long been usurped by vampires of sorts. I'm sure I'm\nnot alone in that feeling, and I find it extremely provocative that a devout\nCatholic would set things up that way. more testament to Wolfe's gutsiness.\n I can't help but feel that Quetzal was shepherding his flock to Green as\nfood. talk about a blood sacrifice. I assume it was him who got Teasel\nearly on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno. Had Quetzal ever seen the corpse of one of his own kind? If so,\nhe'd presumably know what would happen and pick the planet he *didn't* want\nthem to go to, right?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3794667F-08C7-4A9D-82C1-4CCE13068654@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T15:27:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901210723i42b9a121jffef14ea264a585c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 21, 2009, at 7:23 AM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Son of Witz ", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T15:29:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<3794667F-08C7-4A9D-82C1-4CCE13068654@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought Horn was explicit about the monitor changing course based on the\ncorpse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nOn Jan 21, 2009, at 7:23 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Son of Witz \nwrote:\nMy biggest question throughout the whole book was the nature of Quetzal. I\nfind it interesting that the heads of this church are a feathered serpent\nand an eel. I can't help but relate this to my feelings (which I've\nexpressed here before, and apologize in advance to the faithful) that the\nCatholic Church has long been usurped by vampires of sorts. I'm sure I'm\nnot alone in that feeling, and I find it extremely provocative that a devout\nCatholic would set things up that way. more testament to Wolfe's gutsiness.\n I can't help but feel that Quetzal was shepherding his flock to Green as\nfood. talk about a blood sacrifice. I assume it was him who got Teasel\nearly on.\n\nI dunno. Had Quetzal ever seen the corpse of one of his own kind? If so,\nhe'd presumably know what would happen and pick the planet he didn't want\nthem to go to, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, you're saying the Monitor decided, after seeing his corpse, to change\ncourse. i thought that was vague, but yeah...\nbut did he know he was gonna die? I should read that again.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T15:39:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901210729h5c36e689i9578eb9bcd13979f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "just reread it. it's not oblique. the monitor changed course.\nbut I don't think that alone is enough to deny that Quetzal might have \nbeen trying to send them to the Inumu (inhumi).\nI'll be reading Short Sun with that question in mind.\nHow would he know he would die and be overruled by a servant? call it \na lack of shrewdness on his deathbed.\nanyway, unless some other answer supplants that, I'll stick with it, \nbecause it's loaded and appropriate to the themes.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 21, 2009, at 7:29 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nI thought Horn was explicit about the monitor changing course based \non the corpse.\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Son of Witz ", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T15:57:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\njust reread it. it's not oblique. the monitor changed course.\nbut I don't think that alone is enough to deny that Quetzal might have been\ntrying to send them to the Inumu (inhumi)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me either. I do think it throws it into doubt, though. Quetzal was either\na sort of false prophet luring people to their deaths or a vampire who came\nto love the people he cared for--I'm still not sure which, or that Wolfe\nwants it to be clear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How would he know he would die and be overruled by a servant? call it a\nlack of shrewdness on his deathbed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His corpse was hideous. People were freaking out about it. If he knew\nthat, he wouldn't assume the monitor would overrule his decision--he'd\nassume that EVERYONE would collectively realize that doing what he asked was\na Very Bad Idea. The surprising part, to him, might have been Remora\ntalking the others into trusting Quetzal anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "anyway, unless some other answer supplants that, I'll stick with it,\nbecause it's loaded and appropriate to the themes.\n~witz\n\n\nOn Jan 21, 2009, at 7:29 AM, John Watkins wrote:\n\nI thought Horn was explicit about the monitor changing course based on the\ncorpse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Son of Witz \nwrote:\n\nOn Jan 21, 2009, at 7:23 AM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Son of Witz \nwrote:\nMy biggest question throughout the whole book was the nature of Quetzal. I\nfind it interesting that the heads of this church are a feathered serpent\nand an eel. I can't help but relate this to my feelings (which I've\nexpressed here before, and apologize in advance to the faithful) that the\nCatholic Church has long been usurped by vampires of sorts. I'm sure I'm\nnot alone in that feeling, and I find it extremely provocative that a devout\nCatholic would set things up that way. more testament to Wolfe's gutsiness.\n I can't help but feel that Quetzal was shepherding his flock to Green as\nfood. talk about a blood sacrifice. I assume it was him who got Teasel\nearly on.\n\nI dunno. Had Quetzal ever seen the corpse of one of his own kind? If so,\nhe'd presumably know what would happen and pick the planet he didn't want\nthem to go to, right?\n\nSo, you're saying the Monitor decided, after seeing his corpse, to change\ncourse. i thought that was vague, but yeah...\nbut did he know he was gonna die? I should read that again.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090121155907.GG8790@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T15:59:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 07:39:24AM -0800, Son of Witz wrote:\nHow would he know he would die and be overruled by a servant? call it a \nlack of shrewdness on his deathbed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or he was shrewdly betraying his people.\nNot unheard of." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B49C@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2009-01-21T16:08:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<20090121155907.GG8790@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the matter of Long Sun laughs (and I don't have the text to hand) but I remember a wonderful passage:\nSilk is in his room brooding. Oreb interrupts him with \"Silk Good. Fish heads?\". Oreb's God ignored him and stared out the window.\n\nOK, that is a brutal description of the scene but it made me laugh aloud. I will dig out the text tonight.\n\nOn the whole monitor changing direction discussion, weird, I was just going through the archives today and came across people discussing this point.\n\nI would align with this idea (thanks to Mantis):\n\nWell the contexts (being a polite intercity telecom service unit versus being the controling intelligence for a planetary landing vehicle) are different enough that, even if the monitors are virtually identical (i.e., more similar than a tv and a computer display), they would have room to act differently.\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0525.shtml\n\nSomething that occurred to me recently, Mucor has a power to project her thoughts. Typhon in BOTNS is able to sense things in some kind of ESP way as well.\nIdle speculation but is there a connection? \nIs Typhon's power natural or something cooked up for him by Urth scientists, or by some form of alien invention?\nIs Mucor related to Typhon? Or was Mucor's ability based on Typhon's ability (some kind of genetic engineering based on Typhon's DNA?)\n\nWho knows? But I am re-reading BOTNS at the moment and will pay particular attention to the Typhon chapter to see if I can un-urth any evidence...\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49774E3D.9050902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-21T16:33:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B49C@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz:\n\nI read LS/SS but once, so long ago. Who is the eel to which you refer?\n\nQuetzal is an obvious reference, so I assume you are simply translating a name.\n\nFunny, I don't remember the catachrest. Catachresis is a figure of speech: a word used against its meaning, which can mean a metaphor, an oxymoron, or something resembling a failed metaphor or failed speech. \"The king is pregnant!\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:16:31 -0800\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes\n\nI finished Long Sun the other day.\nAn excellent book. serious page turner for me, burned through it \nreally fast.\ntoo fast, I'm sure, to catch all the hints, but the basic gist doesn't \nseem that obscure.\n\nthe basic gnostic setup is easy enough to read. the Five Steps \ntowards Briah article is very on-point, if you ask me. It hadn't \ndawned on me until reading that article that each book is a system to \nbe explored (and ultimately discarded). That of the inverted \nmatriarchy of Trivigaunte was easy enough to see. I loved all the \ngenre bending that this creates.\n\nThe comic relief is pretty damn funny. They're having these serious \ndiscussions and Oreb and the Catachrest keep popping up to color the \ntalks.\nAlways worth a laugh, though I'm not sure I'd agree if it were a \nmovie. The catachrest's speech was often impenetrable to me, as is \nappropriate to it's name, I guess.\n\nMy biggest question throughout the whole book was the nature of \nQuetzal. I find it interesting that the heads of this church are a \nfeathered serpent and an eel. I can't help but relate this to my \nfeelings (which I've expressed here before, and apologize in advance \nto the faithful) that the Catholic Church has long been usurped by \nvampires of sorts. I'm sure I'm not alone in that feeling, and I find \nit extremely provocative that a devout Catholic would set things up \nthat way. more testament to Wolfe's gutsiness. I can't help but feel \nthat Quetzal was shepherding his flock to Green as food. talk about a \nblood sacrifice. I assume it was him who got Teasel early on.\n\nI found the narrative device of Horn a bit implausible, but I suppose \nit's more plausible than something like Mary Shelley's Frankenstein's \nbooks within books. Hey, Books within books is a theme of Wolfe's, \nsame as Masks within Masks I guess. That conceit is so much more \ninteresting than the implausibility of a sideline party being able to \nwrite an insider's account, so I'll swallow it.\n\nHopefully Short Sun will shed some light on all this. Horn's detached \nwriting for the first long chapter is sort of maddening so far.\nalready a much different book than either New or Long.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49774FA9.8000106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-21T16:39:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<49774E3D.9050902@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, never mind. Remora, of course.\n\nRegarding magical mental powers---I think you have to assume these have been either manufactured or bred in every human case. Which, may not matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:33:01 -0500\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <49774E3D.9050902 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nWitz:\n\nI read LS/SS but once, so long ago. Who is the eel to which you refer?\n\nQuetzal is an obvious reference, so I assume you are simply translating a name.\n\nFunny, I don't remember the catachrest. Catachresis is a figure of speech: a word used against its meaning, which can mean a metaphor, an oxymoron, or something resembling a failed metaphor or failed speech. \"The king is pregnant!\"\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B4A1@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2009-01-21T16:42:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<49774FA9.8000106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I had read the books a number of times and the magical mental powers I had taken as part of the given elements of this universe.\nIt was only on reflection on the similarity between Mucor's power (mind projection) and Typhon's power (mind projection + mental nets to ensnare others + ?) that I wondered at a connection.\n\nThere is probably nothing in it though...or nothing I can prove anyway...\n\n_____________________________________________________\n\nDavid Stockhoff dstockhoff at verizon.net \nWed Jan 21 08:39:05 PST 2009 \n*\tPrevious message: (urth) Long Sun Laughs <011820.html>\n*\tMessages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] \n\nAh, never mind. Remora, of course.\n\nRegarding magical mental powers---I think you have to assume these have been either manufactured or bred in every human case. Which, may not matter.\n\n\n------------------------------" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370901210852u7350a1c7ic1ed47bbaff49d12@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T16:52:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B4A1@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems obvious to-me that Mucor's body was intended for one of Typhon's\nchildren to inhabit when the Whorl reached its intended destination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 8:42 AM, O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI)\n wrote:\n\n\nWell, I had read the books a number of times and the magical mental powers I\nhad taken as part of the given elements of this universe.\n\nIt was only on reflection on the similarity between Mucor's power (mind\nprojection) and Typhon's power (mind projection + mental nets to ensnare\nothers + ?) that I wondered at a connection.\n\nThere is probably nothing in it though...or nothing I can prove anyway...\n\n_____________________________________________________\n\nDavid Stockhoff dstockhoff at verizon.net\n\nWed Jan 21 08:39:05 PST 2009\n\nPrevious message: (urth) Long Sun Laughs <011820.html>\nMessages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject\n] [ author ] \n\nAh, never mind. Remora, of course.\n\nRegarding magical mental powers---I think you have to assume these have been\neither manufactured or bred in every human case. Which, may not matter.\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie\n\n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended\nfor the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there\nare any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised\nuse, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly\nforbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior\nto leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network.\nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or\nconsequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this\nmessage by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank\nof Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail\nmessages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or\ndetecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective\noperation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by\nthe Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered\noffice: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B4A6@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2009-01-21T17:05:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370901210852u7350a1c7ic1ed47bbaff49d12@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed, my question is this:\nIs Mucor a daughter of Typhon (and Krypis perhaps? as indicated by her having similar powers to Typhon)?\nOr is she an unconnected individual who one of Typhon's children will inhabit (such as Typhon and Piaton)?\n_____________________________\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes danldo at gmail.com \nWed Jan 21 08:52:07 PST 2009 \n*\tPrevious message: (urth) FW: Long Sun Laughs <011822.html>\n\t*\tMessages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] \n\nIt seems obvious to-me that Mucor's body was intended for one of Typhon's\nchildren to inhabit when the Whorl reached its intended destination.\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T17:07:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B4A6@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting idea, a body for the gods to inhabit.\n\nI can't help but feel that Mucor and the Possessions by Gods are flipsides of the same thing. How does mainframe beam the \"Gods\" consciousness into the humans? It strikes me that if humans have the potential for this sort of consciousness override, and a machine has the ability to possess them, then that ability could have evolved, or been engineered into someone like Mucor.\n\n\nand Yeah, Quetzal could have decided to betray the inhumu, fair enough.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:danldo at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 08:52 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) FW: Long Sun Laughs\n\nIt seems obvious to-me that Mucor's body was intended for one of Typhon's\nchildren to inhabit when the Whorl reached its intended destination.\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 8:42 AM, O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI)\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I had read the books a number of times and the magical mental powers I\nhad taken as part of the given elements of this universe.\n\nIt was only on reflection on the similarity between Mucor's power (mind\nprojection) and Typhon's power (mind projection + mental nets to ensnare\nothers + ?) that I wondered at a connection.\n\nThere is probably nothing in it though...or nothing I can prove anyway...\n\n_____________________________________________________\n\nDavid Stockhoff dstockhoff at verizon.net\n\nWed Jan 21 08:39:05 PST 2009\n\nPrevious message: (urth) Long Sun Laughs <011820.html>\nMessages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject\n] [ author ] \n\nAh, never mind. Remora, of course.\n\nRegarding magical mental powers---I think you have to assume these have been\neither manufactured or bred in every human case. Which, may not matter.\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie\n\n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended\nfor the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there\nare any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised\nuse, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly\nforbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior\nto leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network.\nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or\nconsequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this\nmessage by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank\nof Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail\nmessages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or\ndetecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective\noperation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by\nthe Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered\noffice: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40901211036n500c604dn1fa35d136a078fa1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T18:36:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe answered several questions related to Quetzal's motivations in a\nQ&A session recorded here: http://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html/quetxal\n\nCheck out answers 7, 23, and 24. He said that Quetzal wanted a \"thriving\nhuman colony on Green\" (which almost seems like a contradiction in terms to\nme)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T18:51:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40901211036n500c604dn1fa35d136a078fa1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "haven't read yet.\nbut that link was 404.\nhere is a new link:\nhttp://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Tallman [mailto:davetallman at msn.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:36 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nGene Wolfe answered several questions related to Quetzal's motivations in a\nQ&A session recorded here: http://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html/quetxal\n\nCheck out answers 7, 23, and 24. He said that Quetzal wanted a \"thriving\nhuman colony on Green\" (which almost seems like a contradiction in terms to\nme)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T19:15:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thanks again for that Dave.\n\nthis one strikes me as odd:\n12. Who was Blood's father? -- Patera Pike. [DRL: This was a complete surprise all round, by the way.]\nI thought that was pretty clear in the book, much more clear than Silk being an engineered embryo.\n\nbut I'd like to point out #15 to all the people here who contest the idea that Severian is an instantiation of Christ.\n\n15. Is the Outsider a form of Severian? -- No. Severian is a form of the Outsider.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Tallman [mailto:davetallman at msn.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:36 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nGene Wolfe answered several questions related to Quetzal's motivations in a\nQ&A session recorded here: http://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html/quetxal\n\nCheck out answers 7, 23, and 24. He said that Quetzal wanted a \"thriving\nhuman colony on Green\" (which almost seems like a contradiction in terms to\nme)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<780351.15200.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T19:20:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but I'd like to point out #15 to all the people here who contest the idea that Severian is an instantiation of Christ.\n\n15. Is the Outsider a form of Severian? -- No. Severian is a form of the Outsider." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Define form.\n\nHeh, just kidding. (maybe...?)\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901211120w3fe27b63hb41f515b69c9a288@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T19:20:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nthanks again for that Dave.\n\nthis one strikes me as odd:\n12. Who was Blood's father? -- Patera Pike. [DRL: This was a complete\nsurprise all round, by the way.]\nI thought that was pretty clear in the book, much more clear than Silk\nbeing an engineered embryo.\n\nbut I'd like to point out #15 to all the people here who contest the idea\nthat Severian is an instantiation of Christ.\n\n15. Is the Outsider a form of Severian? -- No. Severian is a form of the\nOutsider." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As, by a certain logic, is everyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Tallman [mailto:davetallman at msn.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:36 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nGene Wolfe answered several questions related to Quetzal's motivations in\na\nQ&A session recorded here: http://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html/quetxal\n\nCheck out answers 7, 23, and 24. He said that Quetzal wanted a \"thriving\nhuman colony on Green\" (which almost seems like a contradiction in terms\nto\nme)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T19:23:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901211120w3fe27b63hb41f515b69c9a288@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I knew both Watkins and Brewer couldn't leave that one. :D\n\nwe all are. \nand we all must overcome our Typhons.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:20 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "thanks again for that Dave.\n\nthis one strikes me as odd:\n12. Who was Blood's father? -- Patera Pike. [DRL: This was a complete\nsurprise all round, by the way.]\nI thought that was pretty clear in the book, much more clear than Silk\nbeing an engineered embryo.\n\nbut I'd like to point out #15 to all the people here who contest the idea\nthat Severian is an instantiation of Christ.\n\n15. Is the Outsider a form of Severian? -- No. Severian is a form of the\nOutsider." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As, by a certain logic, is everyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Tallman [mailto:davetallman at msn.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:36 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nGene Wolfe answered several questions related to Quetzal's motivations in\na\nQ&A session recorded here: http://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html/quetxal\n\nCheck out answers 7, 23, and 24. He said that Quetzal wanted a \"thriving\nhuman colony on Green\" (which almost seems like a contradiction in terms\nto\nme)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901211131p2e4b1902r9cf85672b20e4932@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T19:31:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why is the Jordan interview not the last word on this? The emphasis is my\nown.\n\n\"*JJ:* The holy slaves [Heirodules], Famulimus or one of them tells Severian\nthat he is the center of his race, the savior of his race. That is such\nChristlike language you can see why interpreters would say, Well Severian is\na Christ figure. But is there a Christ figure in the book, or is he simply\nfor this universe?\n\n*GW:* In so far as there is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't\nmean he has to be identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to\nthat of Christ. *But really it is a different position because Christ really\nis both God and man. Severian is not*. Severian is a Christian rather than a\nChrist. But he has been taken as the representative of humanity by whom\nhumanity is to be judged. This I think is what has happened perhaps with the\nactual human Jesus. He is or was as fully human as you or I and we are saved\nby Him. By the fact that he passed. That the corruption did not destroy Him.\nI think that St. Paul is absolutely correct when he says that Jesus was\ntempted in all the ways that we are tempted. I think that Jesus was tempted\nto commit murder or any other sin that you want to name just as the rest of\nus are. And the difference is that He did not sin.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI knew both Watkins and Brewer couldn't leave that one. :D\n\nwe all are.\nand we all must overcome our Typhons.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:20 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >Subject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Son of Witz ", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T19:48:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901211131p2e4b1902r9cf85672b20e4932@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hadn't read that.\nbut my point stands from his first line.\n\"In so far as there is a Christ figure, it is Severian\"\nI'm talking about symbolic metaphor, or loose analogy, not mundane plot.\nthe same could be said for the Long Sun.\nIn so far as there is a Christ figure, it is Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:31 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nWhy is the Jordan interview not the last word on this? The emphasis is my\nown.\n\n\"*JJ:* The holy slaves [Heirodules], Famulimus or one of them tells Severian\nthat he is the center of his race, the savior of his race. That is such\nChristlike language you can see why interpreters would say, Well Severian is\na Christ figure. But is there a Christ figure in the book, or is he simply\nfor this universe?\n\n*GW:* In so far as there is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't\nmean he has to be identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to\nthat of Christ. *But really it is a different position because Christ really\nis both God and man. Severian is not*. Severian is a Christian rather than a\nChrist. But he has been taken as the representative of humanity by whom\nhumanity is to be judged. This I think is what has happened perhaps with the\nactual human Jesus. He is or was as fully human as you or I and we are saved\nby Him. By the fact that he passed. That the corruption did not destroy Him.\nI think that St. Paul is absolutely correct when he says that Jesus was\ntempted in all the ways that we are tempted. I think that Jesus was tempted\nto commit murder or any other sin that you want to name just as the rest of\nus are. And the difference is that He did not sin.\"\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I knew both Watkins and Brewer couldn't leave that one. :D\n\nwe all are.\nand we all must overcome our Typhons.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:20 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " >Subject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Son of Witz ", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T20:05:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somewhat OT, but you'll enjoy it.\n\nIn Battlestar Galactica, insofar as there is a Christ-figure, it's Starbuck.\n\nAlso, Starbuck and Severian have the same number of letters and same initial\nletter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI hadn't read that.\nbut my point stands from his first line.\n\"In so far as there is a Christ figure, it is Severian\"\nI'm talking about symbolic metaphor, or loose analogy, not mundane plot.\nthe same could be said for the Long Sun.\nIn so far as there is a Christ figure, it is Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:31 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Subject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nWhy is the Jordan interview not the last word on this? The emphasis is my\nown.\n\n\"*JJ:* The holy slaves [Heirodules], Famulimus or one of them tells\nSeverian\nthat he is the center of his race, the savior of his race. That is such\nChristlike language you can see why interpreters would say, Well Severian\nis\na Christ figure. But is there a Christ figure in the book, or is he simply\nfor this universe?\n\n*GW:* In so far as there is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't\nmean he has to be identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to\nthat of Christ. *But really it is a different position because Christ\nreally\nis both God and man. Severian is not*. Severian is a Christian rather than\na\nChrist. But he has been taken as the representative of humanity by whom\nhumanity is to be judged. This I think is what has happened perhaps with\nthe\nactual human Jesus. He is or was as fully human as you or I and we are\nsaved\nby Him. By the fact that he passed. That the corruption did not destroy\nHim.\nI think that St. Paul is absolutely correct when he says that Jesus was\ntempted in all the ways that we are tempted. I think that Jesus was\ntempted\nto commit murder or any other sin that you want to name just as the rest\nof\nus are. And the difference is that He did not sin.\"\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Son of Witz Subject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Son of Witz <\nsonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "thanks again for that Dave.\n\nthis one strikes me as odd:\n12. Who was Blood's father? -- Patera Pike. [DRL: This was a complete\nsurprise all round, by the way.]\nI thought that was pretty clear in the book, much more clear than\nSilk\nbeing an engineered embryo.\n\nbut I'd like to point out #15 to all the people here who contest the\nidea\nthat Severian is an instantiation of Christ.\n\n15. Is the Outsider a form of Severian? -- No. Severian is a form of\nthe\nOutsider." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "As, by a certain logic, is everyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dave Tallman [mailto:davetallman at msn.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:36 AM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nGene Wolfe answered several questions related to Quetzal's\nmotivations\nin\na\nQ&A session recorded here:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "http://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html/quetxal" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Check out answers 7, 23, and 24. He said that Quetzal wanted a\n\"thriving\nhuman colony on Green\" (which almost seems like a contradiction in\nterms\nto\nme)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49778421.1060102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-21T20:22:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901211205w28ffcb40ic8a39ed4afd86268@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Was that from before or after TUotNS? \n\nBecause certain passages during a healing scene make it pretty clear that Severian (or a part of Severian's consciousness) observes himself as something huge squeezing itself through tiny human senses. That's a god talking.\n\nIt may leave room for temporary goddish intervention, but Severian himself observes this as though it is he who is the god, not as though someone else is the god.\n\nPerhaps Wolfe rethought it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:31:07 -0500\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0901211131p2e4b1902r9cf85672b20e4932 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nWhy is the Jordan interview not the last word on this? The emphasis is my\nown.\n\n\"*JJ:* The holy slaves [Heirodules], Famulimus or one of them tells Severian\nthat he is the center of his race, the savior of his race. That is such\nChristlike language you can see why interpreters would say, Well Severian is\na Christ figure. But is there a Christ figure in the book, or is he simply\nfor this universe?\n\n*GW:* In so far as there is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't\nmean he has to be identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to\nthat of Christ. *But really it is a different position because Christ really\nis both God and man. Severian is not*. Severian is a Christian rather than a\nChrist. But he has been taken as the representative of humanity by whom\nhumanity is to be judged. This I think is what has happened perhaps with the\nactual human Jesus. He is or was as fully human as you or I and we are saved\nby Him. By the fact that he passed. That the corruption did not destroy Him.\nI think that St. Paul is absolutely correct when he says that Jesus was\ntempted in all the ways that we are tempted. I think that Jesus was tempted\nto commit murder or any other sin that you want to name just as the rest of\nus are. And the difference is that He did not sin.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901211225t629b6465v7e5cd64f22fb1bec@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T20:25:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<49778421.1060102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's from after Long Sun.\n\nSeverian is pretty clearly more than human in a demi-god sense while linked\nup with the New Sun in Urth. That does not make him an incarnation of the\nIncreate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 3:22 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWas that from before or after TUotNS?\nBecause certain passages during a healing scene make it pretty clear that\nSeverian (or a part of Severian's consciousness) observes himself as\nsomething huge squeezing itself through tiny human senses. That's a god\ntalking.\n\nIt may leave room for temporary goddish intervention, but Severian himself\nobserves this as though it is he who is the god, not as though someone else\nis the god.\n\nPerhaps Wolfe rethought it.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:31:07 -0500\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n <93d4039f0901211131p2e4b1902r9cf85672b20e4932 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nWhy is the Jordan interview not the last word on this? The emphasis is my\nown.\n\n\"*JJ:* The holy slaves [Heirodules], Famulimus or one of them tells\nSeverian\nthat he is the center of his race, the savior of his race. That is such\nChristlike language you can see why interpreters would say, Well Severian\nis\na Christ figure. But is there a Christ figure in the book, or is he simply\nfor this universe?\n\n*GW:* In so far as there is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't\nmean he has to be identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to\nthat of Christ. *But really it is a different position because Christ\nreally\nis both God and man. Severian is not*. Severian is a Christian rather than\na\nChrist. But he has been taken as the representative of humanity by whom\nhumanity is to be judged. This I think is what has happened perhaps with\nthe\nactual human Jesus. He is or was as fully human as you or I and we are\nsaved\nby Him. By the fact that he passed. That the corruption did not destroy\nHim.\nI think that St. Paul is absolutely correct when he says that Jesus was\ntempted in all the ways that we are tempted. I think that Jesus was tempted\nto commit murder or any other sin that you want to name just as the rest of\nus are. And the difference is that He did not sin.\"\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090121-0, 01/21/2009\nTested on: 1/21/2009 3:22:58 PM\n\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497786E3.2090100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-21T20:34:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901211225t629b6465v7e5cd64f22fb1bec@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet he briefly shares the Increate's perspective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:25:55 -0500\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0901211225t629b6465v7e5cd64f22fb1bec at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nIt's from after Long Sun.\n\nSeverian is pretty clearly more than human in a demi-god sense while linked\nup with the New Sun in Urth. That does not make him an incarnation of the\nIncreate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9940A959-7240-47CF-BB4B-17133CFA0366@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T20:42:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40901211036n500c604dn1fa35d136a078fa1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 21, 2009, at 12:36 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nHe said that Quetzal wanted a \"thriving human colony on \nGreen\" (which almost seems like a contradiction in terms to me)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A stockyard could be considered a thriving colony of cattle.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T20:45:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<9940A959-7240-47CF-BB4B-17133CFA0366@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's how I read that passage too.\n\nbut guys, I wasn't really trying to spark the debate.\nI suppose it can't be helped from such a provocative comment though. sorry.\n\nRE: BSG,\nI've been wondering about that. I've been wondering if Gaius isn't being set up as some dubious sort of Christlike messiah. I've only watched 4 eps of season 4 though. And I hope that suspicion is wrong. But he prayed, and that kid was healed, and he's got some sort of \"chosen one\" charm about him.\ndamn, I gotta catch up before friday. hope netflix comes in time.\nPLEASE NO BSG SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:22 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nWas that from before or after TUotNS? \n\nBecause certain passages during a healing scene make it pretty clear that Severian (or a part of Severian's consciousness) observes himself as something huge squeezing itself through tiny human senses. That's a god talking.\n\nIt may leave room for temporary goddish intervention, but Severian himself observes this as though it is he who is the god, not as though someone else is the god.\n\nPerhaps Wolfe rethought it.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:31:07 -0500\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n<93d4039f0901211131p2e4b1902r9cf85672b20e4932 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nWhy is the Jordan interview not the last word on this? The emphasis is my\nown.\n\n\"*JJ:* The holy slaves [Heirodules], Famulimus or one of them tells Severian\nthat he is the center of his race, the savior of his race. That is such\nChristlike language you can see why interpreters would say, Well Severian is\na Christ figure. But is there a Christ figure in the book, or is he simply\nfor this universe?\n\n*GW:* In so far as there is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't\nmean he has to be identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to\nthat of Christ. *But really it is a different position because Christ really\nis both God and man. Severian is not*. Severian is a Christian rather than a\nChrist. But he has been taken as the representative of humanity by whom\nhumanity is to be judged. This I think is what has happened perhaps with the\nactual human Jesus. He is or was as fully human as you or I and we are saved\nby Him. By the fact that he passed. That the corruption did not destroy Him.\nI think that St. Paul is absolutely correct when he says that Jesus was\ntempted in all the ways that we are tempted. I think that Jesus was tempted\nto commit murder or any other sin that you want to name just as the rest of\nus are. And the difference is that He did not sin.\"\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090121-0, 01/21/2009\nTested on: 1/21/2009 3:22:58 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T20:47:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Adam Thornton [mailto:adam at io.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:42 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\n\nOn Jan 21, 2009, at 12:36 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He said that Quetzal wanted a \"thriving human colony on \nGreen\" (which almost seems like a contradiction in terms to me)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A stockyard could be considered a thriving colony of cattle.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. When I read that I felt it did not invalidate the idea that he was providing a food source. Not having read much of short sun, it already has been suggested that there WAS a previous population on Blue.\n\nI hope the leftover fish I'm about to lunch on isn't a thriving colony.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901211250p15b8b311gce3f76d61b0a92d6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T20:50:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note that Baltar + Anders = Baldanders.\n\nBrilliant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nThat's how I read that passage too.\n\nbut guys, I wasn't really trying to spark the debate.\nI suppose it can't be helped from such a provocative comment though. sorry.\n\nRE: BSG,\nI've been wondering about that. I've been wondering if Gaius isn't being\nset up as some dubious sort of Christlike messiah. I've only watched 4 eps\nof season 4 though. And I hope that suspicion is wrong. But he prayed, and\nthat kid was healed, and he's got some sort of \"chosen one\" charm about him.\ndamn, I gotta catch up before friday. hope netflix comes in time.\nPLEASE NO BSG SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:22 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nWas that from before or after TUotNS?\n\nBecause certain passages during a healing scene make it pretty clear that\nSeverian (or a part of Severian's consciousness) observes himself as\nsomething huge squeezing itself through tiny human senses. That's a god\ntalking.\n\nIt may leave room for temporary goddish intervention, but Severian himself\nobserves this as though it is he who is the god, not as though someone else\nis the god.\n\nPerhaps Wolfe rethought it.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:31:07 -0500\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n <93d4039f0901211131p2e4b1902r9cf85672b20e4932 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nWhy is the Jordan interview not the last word on this? The emphasis is my\nown.\n\n\"*JJ:* The holy slaves [Heirodules], Famulimus or one of them tells\nSeverian\nthat he is the center of his race, the savior of his race. That is such\nChristlike language you can see why interpreters would say, Well Severian\nis\na Christ figure. But is there a Christ figure in the book, or is he simply\nfor this universe?\n\n*GW:* In so far as there is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't\nmean he has to be identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to\nthat of Christ. *But really it is a different position because Christ\nreally\nis both God and man. Severian is not*. Severian is a Christian rather than\na\nChrist. But he has been taken as the representative of humanity by whom\nhumanity is to be judged. This I think is what has happened perhaps with\nthe\nactual human Jesus. He is or was as fully human as you or I and we are\nsaved\nby Him. By the fact that he passed. That the corruption did not destroy\nHim.\nI think that St. Paul is absolutely correct when he says that Jesus was\ntempted in all the ways that we are tempted. I think that Jesus was\ntempted\nto commit murder or any other sin that you want to name just as the rest\nof\nus are. And the difference is that He did not sin.\"\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090121-0, 01/21/2009\nTested on: 1/21/2009 3:22:58 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n >\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901211258w1c54f765n2e38d9fab0b9b002@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T20:58:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OMG Witz, didn't you love how Boxy from the original series turns out to be\nthe final fifth cylon?\n\nWhat, oh, you said you DIDN'T want spoilers! Sorry!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901211258i7c86a24an1cde3351b3b58638@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T20:58:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901211250p15b8b311gce3f76d61b0a92d6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Never ever noticed that. Brilliant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 12:50 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nNote that Baltar + Anders = Baldanders.\n\nBrilliant.\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's how I read that passage too.\n\nbut guys, I wasn't really trying to spark the debate.\nI suppose it can't be helped from such a provocative comment though.\nsorry.\n\nRE: BSG,\nI've been wondering about that. I've been wondering if Gaius isn't being\nset up as some dubious sort of Christlike messiah. I've only watched 4 eps\nof season 4 though. And I hope that suspicion is wrong. But he prayed, and\nthat kid was healed, and he's got some sort of \"chosen one\" charm about him.\ndamn, I gotta catch up before friday. hope netflix comes in time.\nPLEASE NO BSG SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:22 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\nWas that from before or after TUotNS?\n\nBecause certain passages during a healing scene make it pretty clear that\nSeverian (or a part of Severian's consciousness) observes himself as\nsomething huge squeezing itself through tiny human senses. That's a god\ntalking.\n\nIt may leave room for temporary goddish intervention, but Severian\nhimself observes this as though it is he who is the god, not as though\nsomeone else is the god.\n\nPerhaps Wolfe rethought it.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:31:07 -0500\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n <93d4039f0901211131p2e4b1902r9cf85672b20e4932 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nWhy is the Jordan interview not the last word on this? The emphasis is\nmy\nown.\n\n\"*JJ:* The holy slaves [Heirodules], Famulimus or one of them tells\nSeverian\nthat he is the center of his race, the savior of his race. That is such\nChristlike language you can see why interpreters would say, Well Severian\nis\na Christ figure. But is there a Christ figure in the book, or is he\nsimply\nfor this universe?\n\n*GW:* In so far as there is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't\nmean he has to be identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to\nthat of Christ. *But really it is a different position because Christ\nreally\nis both God and man. Severian is not*. Severian is a Christian rather\nthan a\nChrist. But he has been taken as the representative of humanity by whom\nhumanity is to be judged. This I think is what has happened perhaps with\nthe\nactual human Jesus. He is or was as fully human as you or I and we are\nsaved\nby Him. By the fact that he passed. That the corruption did not destroy\nHim.\nI think that St. Paul is absolutely correct when he says that Jesus was\ntempted in all the ways that we are tempted. I think that Jesus was\ntempted\nto commit murder or any other sin that you want to name just as the rest\nof\nus are. And the difference is that He did not sin.\"\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090121-0, 01/21/2009\nTested on: 1/21/2009 3:22:58 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n >\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<580184.11593.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T21:00:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Potential Short Sun spoilers, but...\n\nA thriving colony or real, happy humans could make sense if the inhumi really did want to live and experience and feel like humans do. Some may just want to feed. Others (Jahlee) actually want to be loved. Someone like Quetzal who had lived with humans for so long might well have wanted to try to become as human as possible. That goes along with the \"partially good inhumi\" theories that got bandied about a lot earlier in the threads.\n\nJust speculation, though. I don't recall anywhere in the text that actually makes that case.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Son of Witz \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 2:47:51 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Adam Thornton [mailto:adam at io.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:42 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\n\nOn Jan 21, 2009, at 12:36 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He said that Quetzal wanted a \"thriving human colony on \nGreen\" (which almost seems like a contradiction in terms to me)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A stockyard could be considered a thriving colony of cattle.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. When I read that I felt it did not invalidate the idea that he was providing a food source. Not having read much of short sun, it already has been suggested that there WAS a previous population on Blue.\n\nI hope the leftover fish I'm about to lunch on isn't a thriving colony.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090121212024.GJ8790@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T21:20:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 08:45:47PM +0000, Son of Witz wrote:\nPLEASE NO BSG SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The last Cylon is a sled" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901211337h31557e4ek1883dc7311be3ffa@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T21:37:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<20090121212024.GJ8790@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 08:45:47PM +0000, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "PLEASE NO BSG SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The last Cylon is a sled" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that's just silly.\n\nThe last cylon is Bruce Willis. He was dead all along." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over\n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)\n\niD8DBQFJd5GYXazNjIaibJERAgkeAJ0T/GzU96wBKQEnNQJGDp14NDNjrwCfUQZG\n0v3wIVDnxVn2bLpNgRBCgNY=\n=a87p\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<406429.25942.qm@web81402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-01-21T21:41:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<20090121212024.GJ8790@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't tell witz about the Lorne Greene cameo..\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Wed, 1/21/09, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:\nFrom: Jeffrey Brent McBeth \nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 1:20 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 08:45:47PM +0000, Son of Witz wrote:\nPLEASE NO BSG SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The last Cylon is a sled" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T21:44:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<406429.25942.qm@web81402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 08:45:47PM +0000, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "PLEASE NO BSG SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The last Cylon is a sled" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now that's just silly.\n\nThe last cylon is Bruce Willis. He was dead all along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I KNEW IT!!!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T22:02:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901211337h31557e4ek1883dc7311be3ffa@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 21, 2009, at 3:37 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth ", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T22:25:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Adam Thornton [mailto:adam at io.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 02:02 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Long Sun Laughs\n\n\nOn Jan 21, 2009, at 3:37 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth ", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T23:09:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun Laughs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No.\nObviously it's Rosebud. Which is a euphemism for \"anus.\" Because the whole thing is just ONE BIG POOP JOKE.\nQED.\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no. Certainly you have BSG's mysteries confused with LOST's where the poop joke is more plausible than anything else the writers have (or never had) in mind.\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<756246.72178.qm@web30805.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "J Jankiewicz", "address": "jjankie at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-23T01:07:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Inhumi Inigma", "in_reply_to": "<580184.11593.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What really never makes sense to me is how in the heck did the inhumi breach the Whorl and get inside? Doesn't anybody think that just wrong is so many ways? You would have security alarms, airlocks to open somehow, lack of technology by the inhumi to break in, etc etc. Seems like a Deus ex Machina on Wolfe's part.\n\n\nPlus so the inhumi get inside, how they can rise to power in an alien society is another huge?hurdle. Please enlighten or just tell me this is the part of the movie where you suspend belief. Thanks.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090123010830.GC24821@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-01-23T01:08:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Inhumi Inigma", "in_reply_to": "<756246.72178.qm@web30805.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 05:07:18PM -0800, J Jankiewicz wrote:\nWhat really never makes sense to me is how in the heck did the inhumi\nbreach the Whorl and get inside? Doesn't anybody think that just\nwrong is so many ways? You would have security alarms, airlocks to\nopen somehow, lack of technology by the inhumi to break in, etc etc.\nSeems like a Deus ex Machina on Wolfe's part." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm guessing you haven't read Book of the Short Sun yet.\n\nSpoiler warning for BotSS\n\n\nI seem to remember that it was stated fairly explicitly by the\nNeighbors that they got the inhumi into the Whorl. \n\nAs far as them rising in power in an alien society, I would claim\ntheir empathetic abilities are fairly well dealt with in BotSS\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<590189.40955.qm@web30803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "J Jankiewicz", "address": "jjankie at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-23T01:29:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Inhumi Inigma", "in_reply_to": "<20090123010830.GC24821@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well gawsh I did read BotSS but apparently missed that key fact. Sigh, time to read them again!? Well, continue please. WHY would the neighbors do this or even know of the Whorl? It wasn't that obvious in BotSS was it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090123014602.GD24821@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-01-23T01:46:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Inhumi Inigma", "in_reply_to": "<590189.40955.qm@web30803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 05:29:04PM -0800, J Jankiewicz wrote:\nWell gawsh I did read BotSS but apparently missed that key fact.\nSigh, time to read them again!? Well, continue please. WHY would the\nneighbors do this or even know of the Whorl? It wasn't that obvious\nin BotSS was it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, see I'm running off of memory, as I don't have the nice\nsearchable texts that some of you have. Experiment, help humans grow\nby showing themselves through a mirror darkly, gain a friend and ally\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901221950lacc684bj5e9c1e9736146af7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-23T03:50:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Inhumi Inigma", "in_reply_to": "<756246.72178.qm@web30805.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "RRrRRrrrRrRRRRrRrrrRRR" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/22/09, J Jankiewicz wrote:\nWhat really never makes sense to me is how in the heck did the inhumi breach\nthe Whorl and get inside? Doesn't anybody think that just wrong is so many\nways? You would have security alarms, airlocks to open somehow, lack of\ntechnology by the inhumi to break in, etc etc. Seems like a Deus ex Machina\non Wolfe's part.\n\n\nPlus so the inhumi get inside, how they can rise to power in an alien\nsociety is another huge hurdle. Please enlighten or just tell me this is\nthe part of the movie where you suspend belief. Thanks." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4979C926.6090902@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-23T13:41:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Inhumi Inigma", "in_reply_to": "<590189.40955.qm@web30803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "J Jankiewicz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well gawsh I did read BotSS but apparently missed that key fact. Sigh, time to read them again! Well, continue please. WHY would the neighbors do this or even know of the Whorl? It wasn't that obvious in BotSS was it?\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Neighbors knew of the Whorl because it arrived at its destination \n(the Short Sun system, containing the planets Blue and Green) over 33 \nyears before the start of BotLS. Due to a revolution among the Whorl \n\"gods\" there was no unloading as ordained in the Plan of Pas. The \nNeighbors moved around freely in the Short Sun system and elsewhere \nusing astral projection, so they had the opportunity to visit and check \nout the Whorl. They inserted some inhumi to see how inhumi who fed on \nhumans differed from the ones who fed on Neighbors." } ] }, { "message_id": "<54118.49625.qm@web180014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2009-01-23T20:19:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Inhumi Inigma", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901221950lacc684bj5e9c1e9736146af7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "<<<<<<\n\nI don’t see how they get inside either. Perhaps a lander went to Green and came back with stowaways. Quetzal has been there for 30 years or so.\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n\n--- On Thu, 1/22/09, John Watkins wrote:\n\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Inhumi Inigma\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 10:50 PM\n\nRRrRRrrrRrRRRRrRrrrRRR" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/22/09, J Jankiewicz wrote:\nWhat really never makes sense to me is how in the heck did the inhumi\nbreach\nthe Whorl and get inside? Doesn't anybody think that just wrong is so\nmany\nways? You would have security alarms, airlocks to open somehow, lack of\ntechnology by the inhumi to break in, etc etc. Seems like a Deus ex\nMachina\non Wolfe's part.\n\n\nPlus so the inhumi get inside, how they can rise to power in an alien\nsociety is another huge hurdle. Please enlighten or just tell me this is\nthe part of the movie where you suspend belief. Thanks." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497A34F2.7050404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-23T21:21:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Inhumi Inigma", "in_reply_to": "<54118.49625.qm@web180014.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Smith wrote:\nI don’t see how they get inside either. Perhaps a lander went to Green and came back with stowaways. Quetzal has been there for 30 years or so.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A variation on the Horn/Silk trick would do it. Find some dying inhumi, \nallow them to possess people on the Whorl (whose own souls are dying, if \nthat matters). Let them get access to landers, make trips to Green for \nsome real inhumi, and shuttle some back who have fed on humans, etc." } ] }, { "message_id": "<933186.25532.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "J Jankiewicz", "address": "jjankie at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-24T22:07:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Inhumi Inigma", "in_reply_to": "<497A34F2.7050404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I am still not buying it; to far-fetched if you will. Anyone else have issues with how the inhumi got?INSIDE the Whorl? Seems to hurt the tale a bit for me; too contrived.\n\n[John Smith wrote: > I don’t see how they get inside either. Perhaps a lander went to Green and came back with stowaways. Quetzal has been there for 30 years or so.", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T00:01:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Inhumi Inigma", "in_reply_to": "<933186.25532.qm@web30808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyone else have issues with how the inhumi got INSIDE the Whorl? \nSeems to hurt the tale a bit for me; too contrived." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Neighbors said they let them in. Getting inside the Whorl was easy for them. \nOnce you have help from the inside, it's easy. \n\nJ" } ] } ] }