{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5303", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5303, "subject": "Gideon", "messages": 40, "voices": 10, "first": "2009-01-07T23:44:17+00:00", "last": "2009-01-16T18:01:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40901071544p6b16955cu27646c10ab93d931@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-07T23:44:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nGid knew from the start how Reis was able to breach government security.\nReis \"walks unseen\", as the note to Cassie on the back of the photo showed.\nWhat I am suggesting is that Gid set Reis up. He recruited Cassie as bait,\nand Reis took the bait. When Reis acted to make Cassie his island queen, and\nsince he had already pissed off the Squid God by killing off a thousand of\nthe god's international recruits on the islands, he knew he had to act to\ninsure his queen's safety. The island natives were too afraid of the Squid\nGod to be of any help. So he hired Gid as a consultant, knowing Gid had the\near of the president and the backing of the U.S. government. Gid told Reis\nhow to set the bait for the Squid God and got the president to send in the\nNavy. The island natives killed Reis to placate the Squid God. Problem\nsolved. The presiden't commision was satisfied. Gid got his reward, the\nambassadorship to Woldercan he said he wanted (222), where he could learn\nhow to make gold, just as Reis had done." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Earlier in our discussion, I thought you agreed with me that Reis brought\nhis troubles on himself. It was certainly reckless to stash Cassie alone in\na place so near the center of the Storm King's power, and then to provoke a\nnaval battle with Chthulhu. Even if Chase advised this course of action it\nwas Reis who chose to do it. He ought to be smarter than that. Of course,\nCassie was also in danger back in Kingsport and the kidnappers might have\nbeen after her when she went to Springfield. But couldn't Reis find\nsomewhere safer for her than the monster's backyard? I feel more comfortable\nthinking that this part of the scheme was from Reis' meglomania rather than\nfrom Chase. It's too dumb a plan for him to take from somebody else.\n\nThere may be other connections we aren't seeing yet. Reis said he didn't\ncontrol the winged Death's Visitors, but he wanted to. Gideon seemed to have\nan alliance with them, and they promised Cassie their protection. Maybe the\nconsultation involved supernatural protection for Cassie by the Visitors.\nThey did the job, to a certain extent." } ] }, { "message_id": "<009401c97160$4fce77a0$cecc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-08T07:11:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40901071544p6b16955cu27646c10ab93d931@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nGid knew from the start how Reis was able to breach government security.\nReis \"walks unseen\", as the note to Cassie on the back of the photo\nshowed.\nWhat I am suggesting is that Gid set Reis up. He recruited Cassie as\nbait,\nand Reis took the bait. When Reis acted to make Cassie his island queen,\nand\nsince he had already pissed off the Squid God by killing off a thousand\nof\nthe god's international recruits on the islands, he knew he had to act\nto\ninsure his queen's safety. The island natives were too afraid of the\nSquid\nGod to be of any help. So he hired Gid as a consultant, knowing Gid had\nthe\near of the president and the backing of the U.S. government. Gid told\nReis\nhow to set the bait for the Squid God and got the president to send in\nthe\nNavy. The island natives killed Reis to placate the Squid God. Problem\nsolved. The presiden't commision was satisfied. Gid got his reward, the\nambassadorship to Woldercan he said he wanted (222), where he could\nlearn\nhow to make gold, just as Reis had done." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earlier in our discussion, I thought you agreed with me that Reis brought\nhis troubles on himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did and I do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was certainly reckless to stash Cassie alone in\na place so near the center of the Storm King's power, and then to provoke\na\nnaval battle with Chthulhu. Even if Chase advised this course of action it\nwas Reis who chose to do it. He ought to be smarter than that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. But . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course,\nCassie was also in danger back in Kingsport and the kidnappers might have\nbeen after her when she went to Springfield. But couldn't Reis find\nsomewhere safer for her than the monster's backyard? I feel more\ncomfortable\nthinking that this part of the scheme was from Reis' meglomania rather\nthan\nfrom Chase. It's too dumb a plan for him to take from somebody else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that it was a dumb thing to do, but he did it anyway! That's a\ncharacter flaw that comes from being a megalomaniac. Reis was used to\ngetting whatever he wanted, all the time, at whatever the cost. He had\ndreams of being an island king as soon as he got back from being ambassador\nto Woldercan, as the photo the president showed Gid indicated. And he made\nit so, though a thousand people died to make his little paradise. He made\nhimself a benevolent, well-loved king, funded by poison gold. Then he wanted\nanother trophy wife to be his queen. He got her. He bought the natives'\nloyalty, and they stayed loyal until he crossed the monster.\n\nGid used Reis' ego to engineer his downfall. That's the beauty of it. Reis\nwould set himself up to fail, with a little nudge from Gid and help from\nGid's friends in high places.\n\nIf Gid was aware of Reis's scheme to get the Navy to do the dirty work, then\nthat would be a very good reason not to come to the island to pick up\nCassie. The tempest might strike at any time, as it did. When Gid delivered\nCassie to the island, he told her the secret of his success: \"Never set\nyourself up to fail. Never!\" (223)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<496606E5.2060908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-08T14:00:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<009401c97160$4fce77a0$cecc4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gid used Reis' ego to engineer his downfall. That's the beauty of it. Reis\nwould set himself up to fail, with a little nudge from Gid and help from\nGid's friends in high places.\n\nIf Gid was aware of Reis's scheme to get the Navy to do the dirty work, then\nthat would be a very good reason not to come to the island to pick up\nCassie. The tempest might strike at any time, as it did. When Gid delivered\nCassie to the island, he told her the secret of his success: \"Never set\nyourself up to fail. Never!\" (223)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Chase was aware of Reis' scheme (whether or not he suggested it), and \ndid nothing for Cassie other than possibly give her the eleventh-hour \nairlift by Death's Visitors, he appears in a far more sinister light \nthan I've been seeing him. It's plausible, and there are a couple of \nother hints. \"Give me some time to blow the man down\" (p. 101) fits as \nan ironic pun, since Reis perished as the result of high winds. \"The \ndevil's son is born tonight,\" could mean Gideon is the devil and the son \nis his plan come to fruition.\n\nIn an interview, Wolfe said the book was about freedom, and Gideon was \nthe most free character. That could mean the one most unconstrained by \nmorality. Queen Cassiopeia was the least free, eventually becoming a \nliteral puppet for the will of her people." } ] }, { "message_id": "<321585EF-8690-40D1-A46C-31610603A7B5@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-08T17:01:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<496606E5.2060908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 8, 2009, at 8:00 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nIn an interview, Wolfe said the book was about freedom, and Gideon \nwas the most free character. That could mean the one most \nunconstrained by morality. Queen Cassiopeia was the least free, \neventually becoming a literal puppet for the will of her people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He *is* described as a Guest on Earth on the very first page, and we \n*do* have a title for the book, you know.\n\nNow: if we take \"Freedom\" to be a stand-in for \"Evil\"--what does that \ntell us about the *previous* novel?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901080908u245e8d12ka350b29137b7cc13@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-08T17:08:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<321585EF-8690-40D1-A46C-31610603A7B5@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He *is* described as a Guest on Earth on the very first page, and we *do*\nhave a title for the book, you know.\n\nNow: if we take \"Freedom\" to be a stand-in for \"Evil\"--what does that tell\nus about the *previous* novel?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing we didn't already know, really. The freedom of the pirates is\npretty clearly used for evil.\n\nI am wondering, however, what place An Evil Guest has in Wolfe's body\nof work. I think it's fair to consider Pirate Freedom and The Wizard\nKnight as paired novels in a sense--boys' adventure stories featuring\nprotagonists from what is basically our world heading into a world of\ngenre, both of whom are heavily shaped by the moral choices they make\n(in contrasting manners.) Both stories also has sort of parallel\npieces in Wolfe's short fiction--Golden City Far and A Cabin on the\nCoast.\n\nAn Evil Guest is different. I probably need to read Memorare stat to\nunderstand exactly what relationship it has with Wolfe's other works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090108172727.GA15021@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-01-08T17:27:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<321585EF-8690-40D1-A46C-31610603A7B5@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 8, 2009, at 8:00 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nIn an interview, Wolfe said the book was about freedom, and Gideon was \nthe most free character. That could mean the one most unconstrained by \nmorality. Queen Cassiopeia was the least free, eventually becoming a \nliteral puppet for the will of her people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Freedom being equated to being unconstrained by morality seems a bit\nantithetical to the Christian belief that morality is what sets you\nfree.\n\nJeff" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40901080946j510c582es1fdfb47388936151@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-08T17:46:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<20090108172727.GA15021@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\nI am wondering, however, what place An Evil Guest has in Wolfe's body\nof work. I think it's fair to consider Pirate Freedom and The Wizard\nKnight as paired novels in a sense--boys' adventure stories featuring\nprotagonists from what is basically our world heading into a world of\ngenre, both of whom are heavily shaped by the moral choices they make\n(in contrasting manners.) Both stories also has sort of parallel\npieces in Wolfe's short fiction--Golden City Far and A Cabin on the\nCoast.\n\nAn Evil Guest is different. I probably need to read Memorare stat to\nunderstand exactly what relationship it has with Wolfe's other works\n\n I found the interview I mentioned here:\nhttp://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?id=40135\nIt sheds some light on how Wolfe sees the freedom connections in the\nfollowing two quotes.\n\n\"March's hopper [spacecraft] is a 21st-century version of Chris' pirate ship\nin *Pirate Freedom.\"\n\n*\"Cassie Casey becomes a queen and discovers that she can no longer buy\nanything,\" he said. \"Each dress, each pair of shoes she wants, is given to\nher. William Reis can make gold and become invisible; one of his employees\nis a werewolf who will gladly kill (and eat) anyone Reis wants killed (and\neaten). Gideon Chase is, well, Gideon Chase. A wizard, almost human, and so\nslick he can slide up a flagpole. Laws and societal restraints mean little\nto him. He loses a leg, but in a way he is freest of all.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370901081011r33f995d1t5e1162fd934942e1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-08T18:11:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<20090108172727.GA15021@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:\nFreedom being equated to being unconstrained by morality seems a bit\nantithetical to the Christian belief that morality is what sets you\nfree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not the Christian belief. The Christian belief is that *Christ* is\nwhat (who) sets us free." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090108182719.GA28467@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-01-08T18:27:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370901081011r33f995d1t5e1162fd934942e1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 10:11:43AM -0800, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Freedom being equated to being unconstrained by morality seems a bit\nantithetical to the Christian belief that morality is what sets you\nfree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's not the Christian belief. The Christian belief is that *Christ* is\nwhat (who) sets us free." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who requires you to be moral to receive His grace. We cannot ignore\nthe mechanism for the freedom (Him), but it is the morality that is\nthe part that is in our control, not Him." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370901081039l1d87425cqea736b87e828f7ec@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-08T18:39:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<20090108182719.GA28467@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:\nOn Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 10:11:43AM -0800, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Freedom being equated to being unconstrained by morality seems a bit\nantithetical to the Christian belief that morality is what sets you\nfree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's not the Christian belief. The Christian belief is that *Christ* is\nwhat (who) sets us free." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who requires you to be moral to receive His grace. We cannot ignore\nthe mechanism for the freedom (Him), but it is the morality that is\nthe part that is in our control, not Him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't want to start a whole theological argument, but I think you've\nreversed cause and effect here. It is not that acting morally allows\nus to receive Christ's grace; rather, it is that Christ's grace allows\nus to act morally. Unregenerate humanity, the \"old creation,\" is\nconceived of as corrupt and fallen, and incapable of doing any real\ngood. \"In Christ I am a new creation,\" and capable of doing real\ngood.\n\nBut this is only the ancient dogmatic question of faith v. works,\nwhich led ultimately to the great Western schism." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901081045j1fa6d328na6b86c6480c1ecef@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-08T18:45:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370901081039l1d87425cqea736b87e828f7ec@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't want to start a whole theological argument, but I think you've\nreversed cause and effect here. It is not that acting morally allows\nus to receive Christ's grace; rather, it is that Christ's grace allows\nus to act morally. Unregenerate humanity, the \"old creation,\" is\nconceived of as corrupt and fallen, and incapable of doing any real\ngood. \"In Christ I am a new creation,\" and capable of doing real\ngood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As Mr. Beaver puts it in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, \"There\nmay be two schools of thought\" on this question. It's possibly best\nto leave it at that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6686.67.142.130.12.1231440530.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-01-08T18:48:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<20090108182719.GA28467@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " The Christian belief is that *Christ*\nis what (who) sets us free." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who requires you to be moral to receive His grace." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No He doesn't. Where are you getting this idea?\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40901081052o58ff89c3j2f8f02bdce76f9b5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-08T18:52:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<6686.67.142.130.12.1231440530.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mythic patterns from the *The Golden Bough* seem to recur in many Wolfe\nworks. There is a conflict between a man representing Spring and a man\nrepresenting Winter over a woman/Goddess. One man causes the death of the\nother, but there is a cycle of resurrection in view. This is like the mythic\npattern of Venus and Adonis, among many others. (Graves elaborates on this a\ngreat deal in *The White Goddess*, but Wolfe is known to consider that a\ncrackpot theory).\n\nIn An Evil Guest, I associate Reis with Spring because he calls Cassie a\ngreen goddess and rules a tropical island. Chase is Winter because of his\nassociation with the darkness and cold of space (which is linked to the\nFrost Giants and Old Night in *The Wizard Knight*). In most of these books,\nthe winning side can be predicted by the season. In *An Evil Guest *the year\nis turning to winter, and Winter wins. But Cassie, like Venus, seems to be\non a quest to bring Wally back.\n\n\n*Work**Spring**Winter**Goddess**Winner**Cycle* *New Sun*Severianold Autarch\nTheclaSpringSeverian loops back in time *Short Sun/Long Sun*HornSilk\nHyacinth/SeawrackWinterSilk seeks new worlds *Castleview*Shields/Green Man\nMadadh/GeimreadhViviane MorganWinterWrangler/sleeping Shields *There are\nDoors*GreenNorthLaraSpringGreen goes west *Wizard Knight*AbleArnthorMorcaine\nSpringAble taken away *Pirate Freedom*ChrisIgnacioNoviaWinterTime cycle\nrepeats *An Evil Guest*Bill ReisGideon ChaseCassie CaseyWinterRian/Cassie's\nquest" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40901081055g40025af8iec0a4805c6feec9a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-08T18:55:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40901081052o58ff89c3j2f8f02bdce76f9b5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops, my table didn't come out well. You can see it better on the WolfeWiki:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Articles.Gods" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00c801c971cd$0d0c15e0$09cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-08T20:09:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<496606E5.2060908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nGid used Reis' ego to engineer his downfall. That's the beauty of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "would set himself up to fail, with a little nudge from Gid and help from\nGid's friends in high places.\n\nIf Gid was aware of Reis's scheme to get the Navy to do the dirty work,\nthen\nthat would be a very good reason not to come to the island to pick up\nCassie. The tempest might strike at any time, as it did. When Gid\ndelivered\nCassie to the island, he told her the secret of his success: \"Never set\nyourself up to fail. Never!\" (223)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Chase was aware of Reis' scheme (whether or not he suggested it)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would think it very probable that Chase was aware of a fleet of Navy ships\nin the area, since he was in contact with the president's advisor, John." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and\ndid nothing for Cassie other than possibly give her the eleventh-hour\nairlift by Death's Visitors, he appears in a far more sinister light\nthan I've been seeing him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the start of the novel, Gid seems to be a pulp hero, but he faded out of\nthe last quarter of the story. Reis started out as an old-time villain, but\nby the end of the story he seemed to be fighting the good fight, even though\ntainted by personal aggrandizement.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In an interview, Wolfe said the book was about freedom, and Gideon was\nthe most free character. That could mean the one most unconstrained by\nmorality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. But I wouldn't call him immoral; amoral is closer. He has a\npersonal code of honor that he lives by. (He won't take what he thinks he\nhasn't earned, which is why, even as Gil Corby, he bristled at the idea of\naccepting \"charity\" from Cassie. [157] ) So he is not amoral in the sense\nthat a fairy is said to be amoral. His personal ethics are closer to human,\nbut they are not congruent.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00d401c971cd$738ca000$09cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-08T20:12:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40901080946j510c582es1fdfb47388936151@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman, quoting Wolfe interview:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Gideon Chase is, well, Gideon Chase. A wizard, almost human, and so\nslick he can slide up a flagpole. Laws and societal restraints mean little\nto him. He loses a leg, but in a way he is freest of all.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not incidentally, that quote all but cements the earlier assumption that one\nof Gid's biological parents, probably the father, was not human.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4969F7B9.7030106@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-11T13:44:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<00c801c971cd$0d0c15e0$09cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAt the start of the novel, Gid seems to be a pulp hero, but he faded out of\nthe last quarter of the story. Reis started out as an old-time villain, but\nby the end of the story he seemed to be fighting the good fight, even though\ntainted by personal aggrandizement.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gideon's character, and Cassie's understanding of it, seem to be \ncritical in understanding the end of the book. What is she hoping to \nachieve by visiting Woldercan? How much help does she expect from \nGideon? How much will he give her?\n\nHere are some hints:\n1) Before Reis died, Cassie thought of Chase as a \"good, good man\" (p. \n202). (Gideon doesn't believe in telling people such things, but he \nchose not to contradict her).\n2) After her return from exile, Cassie seems much more cautious and \nhostile concerning Chase. She \"rehearsed a thousand times\" (p. 293) her \nrequest for information from Miskatonic University.\n3) Cassie received an welcoming ethermail from Chase, but it seems she \nmight not have notified him she was coming if it hadn't been for the \ntime paradox (p. 298).\n4) She seeks independent advice on Woldercan from Klauser instead of \nrelying on Chase.\n5) Her final outbursts are focussed exclusively on Bill/Wally (p. 301).\n\nI would say that her former trust in Gideon is gone. She will use him, \nif he lets her, to get back her mojo. Whether Chase helps or not, she \nwill try to regain her power and the associated reality-warping \nabilities (documented in the \"Cassie's mobile home\" thread) to bring \nReis back. She will be Venus to his Adonis if she can." } ] }, { "message_id": "<006e01c97465$09a99f40$aecf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-12T03:22:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<4969F7B9.7030106@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nGideon's character, and Cassie's understanding of it, seem to be\ncritical in understanding the end of the book. What is she hoping to\nachieve by visiting Woldercan? How much help does she expect from\nGideon? How much will he give her?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would say that her former trust in Gideon is gone. She will use him,\nif he lets her, to get back her mojo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with that much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whether Chase helps or not, she\nwill try to regain her power and the associated reality-warping\nabilities (documented in the \"Cassie's mobile home\" thread) to bring\nReis back. She will be Venus to his Adonis if she can." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sold on the \"reality warping\" bit. Anyway, bringing on Cassie's\nglamour had been but a night's work. Yet she told Klauser that she hoped to\nbe on Woldercan for a long time. (299) Why hope? What was her hope\ncontingent upon? I think she wanted Gid to restore her mojo, but the length\nof her stay would depended on whether or not Gid wanted her, with or without\nthe mojo.\n\nWould Reis have wanted her without the mojo? I doubt it, given his track\nrecord with women. But Gid would, as he acknowledged to himself when no one\nwas around to hear. (81) Cassie was a female with issues--always a bad\ncombination. She wanted to be someone in her own right, \"to matter\" as\nshe put it. (211) Gid said that she already was someone. For Reis, she was\njust an ego prop. That is what was behind his remark about her not being\nexecutive material, that it was not what she was \"cut out for.\" (269) For\nReis, she was a heavenly body, not a person. She may have been the Moon to\nhim, but he would always outshine her as the Sun.\n\nHowever reluctantly, Gid let her drive his car. In Cassie's mind, that was a\ntest, a test that Reis almost certainly would have failed. Her last words to\nGid were, \"I love you, Gid. Thanks for letting me drive your car.\" (228)\n\nAs for the book's ending, and clone issues aside, it almost seems as if Bill\nand Wally are two different people in Cassie's mind. The former is the\nsinister, greedy billionaire, the latter the patron and philanthropist she\ncame to love. Perhaps the photo of a young Reis suggests to her that, by the\ntime Gid's ambassadorship is over, young Rian will have grown up to look\nmuch like the young Bill in the photo. He will be rich, and her restored\nmojo will work on him. And Klauser's question about nepotism and the Chase\nambassadors is a pointer to Rian's future. But this is speculation.\n\nWhat else could she do on Woldercan? She could learn the arts that humans\nwere capable of learning, those that Reis had picked up. But both she and\nGid were wealthy, and I doubt either would stoop to making bad gold for\ngain.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<496B4052.3040700@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-12T13:06:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<006e01c97465$09a99f40$aecf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI'm not sold on the \"reality warping\" bit. Anyway, bringing on Cassie's\nglamour had been but a night's work. Yet she told Klauser that she hoped to\nbe on Woldercan for a long time. (299) Why hope? What was her hope\ncontingent upon? I think she wanted Gid to restore her mojo, but the length\nof her stay would depended on whether or not Gid wanted her, with or without\nthe mojo.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd rather not call Cassie's change a glamour. It was a magnification of \nher natural star-power. (If it were a glamour like the one Gid used to \nbe Gib it wouldn't show up in pictures). It's true that it only required \na single night on Earth, but that was with the help of a magical living \nmountain. Gideon compared it to operating in a hospital (41). For all \nCassie knows it might take much longer on Woldercan, if it's even \npossible. There's another reason for spending time on Woldercan which I \nwill expand on below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would Reis have wanted her without the mojo? I doubt it, given his track\nrecord with women. But Gid would, as he acknowledged to himself when no one\nwas around to hear. (81) ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cassie is probably counting on Gid continuing to love her, but it seems \nthat on her side her heart belongs to Wally alone. She will use Gid as a \nmeans to an end." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the book's ending, and clone issues aside, it almost seems as if Bill\nand Wally are two different people in Cassie's mind. The former is the\nsinister, greedy billionaire, the latter the patron and philanthropist she\ncame to love. Perhaps the photo of a young Reis suggests to her that, by the\ntime Gid's ambassadorship is over, young Rian will have grown up to look\nmuch like the young Bill in the photo. He will be rich, and her restored\nmojo will work on him. And Klauser's question about nepotism and the Chase\nambassadors is a pointer to Rian's future. But this is speculation.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find the idea that Cassie would try to get Rian as a substitute for \nthe man she loves quite repulsive. I hope that isn't the answer. I find \na better solution with time-travel clones. They are hinted at, \nparticularly in Klauser's analogy of a bird fighting its reflection \n(298). Wally and Reis may be temporal clones, if Reis returned from \nWoldercan in a time overlap with his stay there. That would give him \ntime to set up his financial and royal empires under aliases, including \nthe name Wally Rosenquist.\n\nIf Cassie spends some time on Woldercan and learns how to make the \nproper hops back, she also should be able to return back before she \nleft, and she may hope to change the past and save Bill's life. Suppose \nshe isn't able to recover her appearance, and returns still older and \ngrayer. Her attempts to warn Bill could make her a Cassandra, whose \nprophecies were true but not believed. It would make her like a banshee \nwarning of death, a Gray Neighbor (64). Margaret? Is that you?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<496BADBA.6070203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-12T20:53:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<496B4052.3040700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to expand on the possibility of temporal clones. It seems \nprobable that Bill Reis came back from his trip to Woldercan while he \nwas \"still there\" from the point-of-view of Earth time. This gives him \nmore time to set up his financial empire and have his gigantic palace \nconstructed as king. It also makes his multiple identities more \nconfusing for his enemies. Temporal clones are hinted at when Klauser \ntalks of a robin fighting its reflection (p. 298).\n\nAt the end of /An Evil Guest/ Cassie is heading to Woldercan with a \nstrong desire to bring Wally back. Suppose she learns the secret of how \nto properly execute hops from there which will take her back in time, so \nthat she arrives before she started. Suppose also that she cannot \nrestore her enhanced star power. She might attempt to get close to her \noriginal self in order to have a chance to warn Reis and save his life. \nShe may have become a werewolf as a disguise.\n\nHere are some indications:\n\n 1. Werewolves redistribute their mass (p. 99). Margaret is a small\n woman (54). Cassie in the end is thinner than she used to be (p.\n 299).\n 2. Other forms than wolves, dogs, and leopards are possible (p. 99).\n How about a different-looking human?\n 3. Coming back to the part she wouldn't have access to much money,\n other than selling the hopper without a legitimate registration.\n Margaret was poor.\n 4. Margaret gets Cassie's sandwich too fast (pp. 54-57). There's only\n a little dialog and no wait time before she appears with the white\n bag. If she knew in advance what the order would be she could get\n it before they spoke.\n 5. She also found Chase too fast, getting answering machines at both\n his apartments in almost no time (pp 63-64). Again, it seems like\n she was prepared ahead of time.\n 6. She exaggerates her truthfulness, playing a role that differs from\n Cassie (pp. 82-83).\n 7. She knows Cassie can sing. Saying she can tell from how Cassie\n talks seems a bit silly (p. 83).\n 8. Her churchgoing persona (p. 84) may be derived from the role of\n Mariah Brownlea. She has kept those initials in the name Margaret\n Briggs.\n 9. \"Have you ever wanted to help out somebody you loved, and known\n the only thing you could do for him was some tiny stupid thing\n that was a lot of trouble? And done it anyway? Any of you?\"\n Margaret nodded. (p. 112).\n\nThere is contrary evidence in her standard breakfast of yougurt and \nfruit (p. 186), since Cassie said she never wanted to eat fruit again \n(p. 288). However, she might endure that as part of her role and to keep \nher weight and expenses down.\n\nCassie's hope to change the past seems to have been defeated by time \nparadoxes. If she warned Reis she wasn't believed. Chase seems to have \nspotted her for a werewolf and gotten the FBI to arrest her, keeping her \nfrom doing more at a critical time. At least she got the chance to see \nWally one more time, when he came to retrieve the gold bracelet. She got \nto try the \"tiny stupid thing\" that was \"a lot of trouble.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002a01c9753e$ed897300$0bd14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-13T05:22:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<496B4052.3040700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI'd rather not call Cassie's change a glamour. It was a magnification of\nher natural star-power. (If it were a glamour like the one Gid used to\nbe Gib it wouldn't show up in pictures)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understand the distinction you mean, and we can call Cassie's change mojo\nor whatever if you like, but it still amounts to a glamour. It may not wash\noff, like Gil's, but the change wrought by Gid on her was not permanent and\nwas never going to be permanent, even if she had not gotten herself stranded\nin harsh conditions on that island. And Gid had the power to reverse it.\n(81) What he did for her was much like what Talos had done with Jolenta,\nonly the loss of the mojo left Cassie in a much worse physical state than\nshe would have been in had she never had it. In other words, there was a\nprice to be paid for the mojo that she didn't know about.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find the idea that Cassie would try to get Rian as a substitute for\nthe man she loves quite repulsive. I hope that isn't the answer. I find\na better solution with time-travel clones." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understand your revulsion and share it. But I also find the time-travel\n\"clone\" theory fraught with problems.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004b01c97549$4b6bfb00$0bd14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-13T06:36:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<496BADBA.6070203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nAt the end of /An Evil Guest/ Cassie is heading to Woldercan with a\nstrong desire to bring Wally back. Suppose she learns the secret of how\nto properly execute hops from there which will take her back in time, so\nthat she arrives before she started. Suppose also that she cannot\nrestore her enhanced star power. She might attempt to get close to her\noriginal self in order to have a chance to warn Reis and save his life.\nShe may have become a werewolf as a disguise.\n\nHere are some indications:\n\n 1. Werewolves redistribute their mass (p. 99). Margaret is a small\n woman (54). Cassie in the end is thinner than she used to be (p.\n 299).\n 2. Other forms than wolves, dogs, and leopards are possible (p. 99).\n How about a different-looking human?\n 3. Coming back to the part she wouldn't have access to much money,\n other than selling the hopper without a legitimate registration.\n Margaret was poor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A hopper is worth a lot of money, even on the black market." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 4. Margaret gets Cassie's sandwich too fast (pp. 54-57). There's only\n a little dialog and no wait time before she appears with the white\n bag. If she knew in advance what the order would be she could get\n it before they spoke." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sandwich was a *hot* pastrami. The coffee would have been hot, too. And\nwhy wouldn't she have known about the extra dressing and straw?\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is contrary evidence in her standard breakfast of yougurt and\nfruit (p. 186), since Cassie said she never wanted to eat fruit again\n(p. 288). However, she might endure that as part of her role and to keep\nher weight and expenses down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis had looked into Margaret's background (122), and he had the best\nsources money could buy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cassie's hope to change the past seems to have been defeated by time\nparadoxes. If she warned Reis she wasn't believed. Chase seems to have\nspotted her for a werewolf and gotten the FBI to arrest her, keeping her\nfrom doing more at a critical time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're probably right about Chase getting her out of the way, but I\nthink he did that because he thought she was a spy for Reis. (171)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At least she got the chance to see\nWally one more time, when he came to retrieve the gold bracelet. She got\nto try the \"tiny stupid thing\" that was \"a lot of trouble.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Margaret had tried to tell Reis that she was really Cassie, she could\nhave mentioned Rian and Klauser and King Kanoa and the coming diamond\nbracelet and many other things that should have given him pause to believe\nher, particularly since he was checking up on her past anyway.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<496C9000.3000203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-13T12:58:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<004b01c97549$4b6bfb00$0bd14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey quoted andwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/ 3. Coming back to the part she wouldn't have access to much money,\n/>/ other than selling the hopper without a legitimate registration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/>/ Margaret was poor.\n/\nA hopper is worth a lot of money, even on the black market.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for challenging my theory. I think most of the objections can \nbe answered, making it stronger. I believe Cassie hopped back several \nyears and established a real background as a dresser. For example, she \ngives Easter Sinclair as a reference (54) and I take that as true. If \nso, she would have trouble selling in 2070 a hopper she bought new in \n2080 without raising all kinds of questions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The sandwich was a *hot* pastrami. The coffee would have been hot, too. And\nwhy wouldn't she have known about the extra dressing and straw?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The dialog on the pages between the order and the return only takes a \nminute or so to read aloud. This is a weak piece of evidence, since this \nsort of time-compression is an accepted convention in books and movies. \nThe phone calls to Chase are more obviously too fast. As for the \ndressing and straw, her memories may have faded over the years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis had looked into Margaret's background (122), and he had the best\nsources money could buy.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He only investigated whether she would be likely to steal the bracelet. \nShe had built up enough of a reputation for honesty that this could be \nquickly settled. (This also goes to the question of the theft of Easter \nSinclair's jewelry (140) -- this probably establishes that Margaret \ndidn't do it)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/ Cassie's hope to change the past seems to have been defeated by time\n/>/ paradoxes. If she warned Reis she wasn't believed. Chase seems to have\n/>/ spotted her for a werewolf and gotten the FBI to arrest her, keeping her\n/>/ from doing more at a critical time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\nI think you're probably right about Chase getting her out of the way, but I\nthink he did that because he thought she was a spy for Reis. (171)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not mutually exclusive. If he spotted her as a werewolf he might \nalso think she was a spy for Reis, since Reis employed werewolves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Margaret had tried to tell Reis that she was really Cassie, she could\nhave mentioned Rian and Klauser and King Kanoa and the coming diamond\nbracelet and many other things that should have given him pause to believe\nher, particularly since he was checking up on her past anyway.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is your strongest objection IMHO, and I don't have a complete \nanswer. It is known to be difficult to change the past. \"If I don't send \nmine, his will have to be accounted for in some other way and it's \nliable to get complicated\" (298). It must be even harder to deliver a \nmessage that will falsify one's own past if acted upon. Margaret herself \nand her message would have to be \"accounted for in some other way.\" \nUnlike Ignacio, she was fighting against destiny.\n\nReis might not be impressed by inside knowledge that she might have \ngained from people spying on him. She can make herself look like an old, \nwashed-out version of Cassie, but he knows what werewolves can do to \nchange their appearance. He might react to warnings with stubborn \nmegalomania, more set on his plans than ever." } ] }, { "message_id": "<496CAC07.5050804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-13T14:58:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<002a01c9753e$ed897300$0bd14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI understand the distinction you mean, and we can call Cassie's change mojo\nor whatever if you like, but it still amounts to a glamour. It may not wash\noff, like Gil's, but the change wrought by Gid on her was not permanent and\nwas never going to be permanent, even if she had not gotten herself stranded\nin harsh conditions on that island. And Gid had the power to reverse it.\n(81) What he did for her was much like what Talos had done with Jolenta,\nonly the loss of the mojo left Cassie in a much worse physical state than\nshe would have been in had she never had it. In other words, there was a\nprice to be paid for the mojo that she didn't know about.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The burnout problem gives us reason to think that the mojo trick will \nonly work once. That was a creepy thing to do to a woman Gid professed \nto love, but he was never one to let love trump financial self-interest. \nIf Cassie can't power up again, the Rian solution is out. That leaves \nthe possibility of going \"down\" to werewolf level.\n\nIf my theory is correct, there should be literary clues as well as \n\"real-life\" clues. Here are a few I have found:\n\n 1. Cassie/Margaret has a prophecy of doom that is not believed,\n making her a Cassandra, as Palma said (p. 64).\n 2. Margaret is also like a banshee, predicting death. She is a Gray\n Neighbor (p. 64).\n 3. The Klauser quote about temporal doubles is \"The robin another\n robin fights in a clean window seems terribly real to him, too\"\n (p. 298).\n 4. Cassie is identified with Batman's Robin. She is a sidekick to a\n dark detective with a high-tech car. There are countless jokes\n about Robin wanting to drive the Batmobile.\n 5. The \"manbat\" Visitors call Cassie their cub (p. 235).\n 6. One food Cassie will eat on Woldercan looks like worms (p. 299).\n 7. There is a character in Memorare named Robin Redd, who seems\n almost a prototype for Cassie. She is twice-divorced, and one of\n her exes is a criminal type. She also has an alliterative name and\n works in show business.\n 8. The match from \"Mariah Brownlea\" to \"Margaret Briggs\" is more than\n just initials. It has the same first three letters in the first\n name and the same first two letters in the second.\n\nIt's possible that Margaret avoided a direct warning to Reis. I'm \nlooking for other things she might have done to sabotage the plan to \ntake Cassie to the Takanga islands. She may have taken the picture that \nrevealed Gib as Gideon to the ATF. She had a camera and was present at \ndress rehearsals. She also warned Cassie that she was getting in too \ndeep (p. 141).\n\nThe cycle may not be stabilized. On the next iteration, Cassie/Margaret \ncan avoid repeating actions that didn't work the last time (like the \npicture, leading to the death of Scott). She may even succeed in the \nlong run. I hope she does." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901130704t49d6d800i89c43d38c520fdca@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-13T15:04:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<496CAC07.5050804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like the Cassie = Margaret theory a lot more than I like the \"two\nBills\" theory. This comic book stuff with \"Robin\" has basically\nconvinced me.\n\nNote that the first female Robin in the comics was Carrie Kelly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/13/09, Dave Tallman wrote:\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I understand the distinction you mean, and we can call Cassie's change\nmojo\nor whatever if you like, but it still amounts to a glamour. It may not\nwash\noff, like Gil's, but the change wrought by Gid on her was not permanent\nand\nwas never going to be permanent, even if she had not gotten herself\nstranded\nin harsh conditions on that island. And Gid had the power to reverse it.\n(81) What he did for her was much like what Talos had done with Jolenta,\nonly the loss of the mojo left Cassie in a much worse physical state than\nshe would have been in had she never had it. In other words, there was a\nprice to be paid for the mojo that she didn't know about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The burnout problem gives us reason to think that the mojo trick will only\nwork once. That was a creepy thing to do to a woman Gid professed to love,\nbut he was never one to let love trump financial self-interest. If Cassie\ncan't power up again, the Rian solution is out. That leaves the possibility\nof going \"down\" to werewolf level.\n\nIf my theory is correct, there should be literary clues as well as\n\"real-life\" clues. Here are a few I have found:\n\n 1. Cassie/Margaret has a prophecy of doom that is not believed,\n making her a Cassandra, as Palma said (p. 64).\n 2. Margaret is also like a banshee, predicting death. She is a Gray\n Neighbor (p. 64).\n 3. The Klauser quote about temporal doubles is \"The robin another\n robin fights in a clean window seems terribly real to him, too\"\n (p. 298).\n 4. Cassie is identified with Batman's Robin. She is a sidekick to a\n dark detective with a high-tech car. There are countless jokes\n about Robin wanting to drive the Batmobile.\n 5. The \"manbat\" Visitors call Cassie their cub (p. 235).\n 6. One food Cassie will eat on Woldercan looks like worms (p. 299).\n 7. There is a character in Memorare named Robin Redd, who seems\n almost a prototype for Cassie. She is twice-divorced, and one of\n her exes is a criminal type. She also has an alliterative name and\n works in show business.\n 8. The match from \"Mariah Brownlea\" to \"Margaret Briggs\" is more than\n just initials. It has the same first three letters in the first\n name and the same first two letters in the second.\n\nIt's possible that Margaret avoided a direct warning to Reis. I'm looking\nfor other things she might have done to sabotage the plan to take Cassie to\nthe Takanga islands. She may have taken the picture that revealed Gib as\nGideon to the ATF. She had a camera and was present at dress rehearsals. She\nalso warned Cassie that she was getting in too deep (p. 141).\n\nThe cycle may not be stabilized. On the next iteration, Cassie/Margaret can\navoid repeating actions that didn't work the last time (like the picture,\nleading to the death of Scott). She may even succeed in the long run. I hope\nshe does.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40901131124q319a963fwc5b5721035b48fb0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-13T19:24:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901130704t49d6d800i89c43d38c520fdca@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nI like the Cassie = Margaret theory a lot more than I like the \"two\nBills\" theory. This comic book stuff with \"Robin\" has basically\nconvinced me.\n\nNote that the first female Robin in the comics was Carrie Kelly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, I'm glad someone else finds this convincing. I didn't know about\nCarrie Kelly -- the name sounds a lot like Cassie Casey, doesn't it?\n\nHere are a couple more references I picked up:\n\n1) \"A mountain whose wife washed clothes?\" (pp. 41-42, 83). This needs a\nmeaning in the book's context, besides the reference to the Cory Doctorow\nnovel \"Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town.\" Reis is associated with\nthe Volcano God, so he is the mountain. His wife (common-law) was Cassie.\nMargaret described herself as an \"expert seamstress and laundress.\" It's\ninteresting that Margaret is the only person Cassie asks about this strange\nwasherwoman. The reference is forced into the conversation a bit awkwardly,\nand all Margaret can do is respond \"A dream?\" (83). It was indeed Cassie's\ndream that got her to this state.\n\n2) Klauser suggests that the younger Cassie was the clone child of the\nnow-older Cassie. This foreshadows the relationship of Cassie and Margaret\nas temporal clones. Also, \"Cassiopeia weeps for her children\" -- both the\nchildren she didn't have with Bill, and her lost younger self. Cassie will\ntry to \"get her back,\" and one way to do that would be to go back in time\nand try to fix things." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2009-01-14T02:00:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<496C9000.3000203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Tue, 13 Jan 2009, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\n - SNIPPING much on Margeret as Cassie -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Margaret herself and her message would \nhave to be \"accounted for in some other way.\" Unlike Ignacio, she was \nfighting against destiny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have reread Margaret's lines, and haven't spotted any dead giveaways. I \nmight push my barrow, with Cassie as Guinevere. Wikipedia has:\n\nWhen Arthur goes to France to fight Lancelot, he leaves Guinevere in the \ncare of Mordred [King Kanoa], who plots to marry the queen himself and \ntake Arthur's throne. In some versions Guinevere assents to Mordred's \nproposal, but in others, she hides in the Tower of London and then takes \nrefuge in a convent. Hearing of the treachery, Arthur returns to Britain \nand slays Mordred at Camlann [Oh all right, doesn't quite work here], but \nhis wounds are so severe that he is taken to the isle of Avalon. Guinevere \nmeets Lancelot one last time, then returns to the convent where she spends \nthe remainder of her life [As MB, she now attends church and sings in the \nchoir].\n\nWe're told that Reis is also _raised_ in the same way Cassie is. I have a \nfeeling that the only problem with becoming a mythic figure is that you \nbecome particularly prone to reenacting traditional stories.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n\nPS Does anyone think that _Rays_ might own the Sun-Tribunal?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<496DB040.8090808@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-14T09:28:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Duffy wrote:\nI have reread Margaret's lines, and haven't spotted any dead giveaways. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Margaret plays her role very low-key, so it is hard to find a smoking \ngun in her words. Here are some more emotional indications based on \nCassie's reaction to her.\n\n\"I have no secrets from my dresser, Agent Martin,\" (132). This seems to \nbe true. Cassie trusts Margaret immediately and completely. She trusts \nMargaret to call Chase for help the first night (63). She asks Margaret \nabout the \"mountain whose wife washed clothes\" (83). She admits the \ntruth about a phone call: \"It was really Gideon Chase\" (138). Cassie \nseems to know instinctively that Margaret is a twin soul.\n\nWe have this from the Volcano God play, p. 145:\n\n \"It's only when I'm quite alone\n That I can see my soul.\"\n\n Her vidimage stood beside her and seemed about to speak.\n\n \"It's then that I am Woman\n the one thing God made whole.\"\n\n She clasped hands with her soul, and the two began to dance.\n\n\nWhen Cassie is with Margaret she is \"alone\" and she can \"see her soul.\" \nThe closest real-life analog is when Margaret gets Cassie to sing \"Walk \nin the Reign.\" This is a powerful moment between them. Perhaps Margaret \nis hoping that by opening up Cassie's spiritual side she will receive \nguidance to avoid danger.\n\nCassie's strong feelings for Margaret continue after the kidnapping. \nCassie even eats breakfast like her because she misses her so much (186).\n\nThen comes the night of the dinner at the Silent Woman. Chase gives \nCassie a painstaking description of the signs of a werewolf (206-207). \nHe didn't need to spell out that he meant Margaret, but he did say \n\"There's often a swift, loping walk, even in women.\"\n\nIt seems to have worked. After that, Cassie calls everyone from Takanga \nexcept Margaret. After the dinner at the Silent Woman, Margaret has \nbeen silenced. With her trust broken Cassie doubts everything that \nhappened with Margaret. Cut off from her \"soul,\" Cassie falls into the trap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We're told that Reis is also _raised_ in the same way Cassie is.I have a \nfeeling that the only problem with becoming a mythic figure is that you \nbecome particularly prone to reenacting traditional stories.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are many classic stories and love triangles echoed in this one (I \nsee Venus/Adonis and My Fair Lady, for example). I like your Guinevere \nanalogy because there aren't too many love triangles where an evil \nfourth party tries to use the triangle for his own benefit (King Kanoa \nas Modred).\n\nI don't see that we are told explicitly that Reis has been \"raised\" like \nCassie. People treat him with deference, mainly because of the power of \nhis wealth, but I don't get a sense of \"star-power\" from him. Do you \nhave a reference? The name itself, pronounced as in German, would sound \nlike \"rice,\" but it's an anagram of \"rise,\" as in the invocation Cassie \ngives at the end for Wally to return to her." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40901141013m6b65be50s82b677ac1748a3a4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-14T18:13:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<496DB040.8090808@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I feel pretty confident now that Margaret was Cassie, back in time as a\nwerewolf to try to help Cassie avoid her fate. The next issue is: what did\nshe do? Chase appeared to be her adversary, since he got Margaret arrested\nby the F.B.I. and told Cassie enough details on how to recognize a werewolf\nto make her lose her trust. Was Margaret also Chase's enemy, carrying out\nthe revenge scenario some predicted for Cassie on Woldercan, but in the past\nwhere it could do Cassie and Bill some good?\n\nI think it's possible that Margaret could be Chase's shooter, based on\nseveral things:\n1) It's never explicitly stated in the book, but traditionally werewolves\ncan rapidly heal damage unless it is done by silver weapons. The\nmass-shifting trick could probably fix wounds.\n2) In support of this: Cassie armed herself with silver-tipped bullets (180)\nafter being told that werewolves were real (99).\n3) A normal human assassin would have been felled by the cleaver attack;\nthis attacker just staggered, covered his face, and fled the scene (82).\n4) Chase saw his attacker was a man, but I believe Margaret is capable of\nalternate human faces.\n5) The body type of the attacker was not like John (p. 203), John is\nstarting to get fat (p. 15), so the attacker was probably thin.\n6) Right after Chase was shot, the book says \"Margaret was fifteen minutes\nlate\" (p. 82). The excuse she gave was a phone call, which she could have\ngotten earlier.\n\nThere's little motive for the ATF or the Squiddies to be active against\nGideon this early. Their enemy is Reis, and at this point Gideon was Reis'\nenemy, too. Scott said \"We're after a man you've probably never heard of,\nand the key to our finding and killing that man is a man seen with you not\nlong ago.\" (188) That is, the ATF wants to find Chase only so they can find\nand kill Reis. The Cthulhuiods would have similar motivations. So why would\neither of these factions send an assassin to just gun Chase down?\n\nMargaret, on the other hand, wants to keep Bill alive. She would have a\nstrong motive to get Chase out of the picture. Unfortunately it wasn't that\neasy to fight destiny or someone as capable as Gideon Chase." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40901141152h1375b865x26194dcd2b1ecdff@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-14T19:52:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40901141013m6b65be50s82b677ac1748a3a4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIf Margaret had tried to tell Reis that she was really Cassie, she could\nhave mentioned Rian and Klauser and King Kanoa and the coming diamond\nbracelet and many other things that should have given him pause to believe\nher, particularly since he was checking up on her past anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a good reason that Margaret wouldn't do this. She not only wants to\nsave Wally's life but she wants him back with her. Here's how it might go.\n\n\"You've got to listen to me! I'm Cassie from the future. If you take me to\nTakanga Ha'i you'll end up dying for me!\"\n\n\"You're not Cassie. The Cassie I love would never end up looking like that.\"\n\n\"Well, you see, I got this magical enhancement from Gideon Chase, but it\nwore off...\"\n\n\"In that case, don't worry about my dying for you. We're finished.\"\n\nI'm convinced that Cassie/Margaret would have thought this through. She\nwould have to try other ways of saving Reis without revealing her identity." } ] }, { "message_id": "<012301c9768b$3fe56620$c7cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-14T21:01:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<496CAC07.5050804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nThe burnout problem gives us reason to think that the mojo trick will\nonly work once." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, assume that to be true and see where it leads. To trouble. I *hate*\ntime travel stories. \n\nAn older, wiser, grayer Cassie, unable to get her mojo back, comes back from\nWoldercan some years before she left. Presumably she is bitter, heartbroken\nand determined to try to change the future for the better. What does she\nwant? Her mojo, love, and possibly wealth. The Margaret we know had none of\nthat.\n\nShe learns to sew and all the other things needed to get a job on the fringe\nof theater, as an assistant to a series of actresses, leading up to Cassie,\nher younger self. She knows about Gideon and Reis and poison gold and Wally\nand a big musical and diamonds and Takanga. If any of these things do not\nhappen pretty much as they played out the first time, she will not exist. If\nReis does not die, Gid will not become ambassador to Woldercan. Gid will not\nbe able to send the ethermail that prompted her to buy the hopper. She will\nnot have the diamonds to sell to buy the hopper. If she does not buy the\nhopper and go to Woldercan, she cannot go back in time. Etc.\n\nSo what *can* she do to change things that will allow her younger self to\nretain what she lost the first time?\n\nNothing, that I can see. If she kills Gid (post mojo), as you have proposed,\nGid will not become ambassador, not send the ethermail, etc. What did she\nexpect would happen to herself if she succeeded? That she would pop out of\nexistence? If Cassie loved Wally, she would still end up in the islands and\nthe ongoing battle with the Storm King would still probably result in the\nfatal uprising against Wally. I could go on with this sort of stuff, but\nthere's no point. All time travel stories involve unavoidable paradoxes.\n\nWhen gray Cassie passed Margaret on the street near the bank, she should\nhave known right there that any attempt she made to change her own past was\ndoomed to failure. If Cassie had never seen or heard of Margaret after\ngetting back to the States, there might have been some hope of changing\nthings for the better. But she did. I suspect that is why Wolfe had them\npass on the street.\n\nThis in no way refutes your theory that Margaret is Cassie, which looks\ngood. Which means the time travel angle must be true, also.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The cycle may not be stabilized. On the next iteration, Cassie/Margaret\ncan avoid repeating actions that didn't work the last time (like the\npicture, leading to the death of Scott). She may even succeed in the\nlong run. I hope she does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think she *can* escape her fate, and that is the way Wolfe intended\nit to be.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40901141503lb7480c1q1f2d08dc706de7a3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-14T23:03:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<012301c9768b$3fe56620$c7cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nOkay, assume that to be true and see where it leads. To trouble. I *hate*\ntime travel stories. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry you feel that way, because so many Wolfe novels have some. In a\nway that's good, because it gives us some background on how Wolfe handles\nthe paradoxes. He usually provides a way to change the past without\ndestroying the character involved.\n\n1) The \"Free Live Free\" model is mostly out, because Cassie would merge into\nMargaret for as long as she was there. However, its model of accumulating\nknowledge from the future to the past is an interesting one, especially the\nway Whitten's original mission becomes unnecessary. We are left with a\nWhitten who remembers going to the future in a world where that didn't\nhappen, a world changed as a result of a trip he will no longer take. He\ndoesn't pop out of existence even though he has invalidated his past.\n(However, the merge gave him a stable anchor-point Margaret doesn't have).\n\n2) The Talos play, based on its own description by Severian as the\nConciliator in \"Urth of the New Sun\" looks like a fixed-universe loop, but\nthere might be ways to build it up with overridden Whitten-like trips. There\nhad better be, because rewriting Sev's life has happened at least once.\n\n3) \"Pirate Freedom\" could be a fixed-universe loop, but Ignacio plays only a\nlittle part in Chris' experience of the past. Chris could still go sailing,\nleaving his wife and child alone or with someone less trustworthy, and\ndecide to go back and join them when that became possible. (The hidden time\nloop with Bram Burt as Chris' father is much more problematic).\n\n4) Cassie's idea is that if she fails to send her message it will be\n\"accounted for in some other way,\" sort of a self-repairing time stream that\nsupplies new causes. It would turn out that either some enemy sent a message\nin her name, or Chase decided to lure her to Woldercan by pretending to\nreply to a message, etc. Most of the options would be less desirable for her\nthan simply sending the message.\n\nI don't know how Margaret and all her memories could be accounted for in\nsome other way, so I'll assume the Whitten way first. Let's say she manages\nto kill Chase. Like Whitten, she remains around with memories of events that\nnever happened. The universe could live with one crazy person. Or she does\ndisappear, but one or more people get brainstorms and fill in her roles in\nlife, up to and including killing Chase.\n\nMeeting Margaret at the end could actually be of benefit to Cassie in an\naccumulating knowledge scenario. Margaret could pass on tips on what she\ndid, what didn't work, and so on from multiple cycles. That doesn't seem to\nhave happened in this novel, though Cassie could be lying to Klauser.\n\nIt might not save Cassie. As you said, Reis will still take her to the\nisland, and the conflict with the Storm King must still come to a climax in\nsome way. I don't know if there could eventually be a happy ending, but it's\na little bit more possible with no Chase working against them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<009901c976db$8fe16ac0$90d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-15T06:36:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40901141503lb7480c1q1f2d08dc706de7a3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nOkay, assume that to be true and see where it leads. To trouble. I\n*hate*\ntime travel stories. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sorry you feel that way, because so many Wolfe novels have some. In a\nway that's good, because it gives us some background on how Wolfe handles\nthe paradoxes. He usually provides a way to change the past without\ndestroying the character involved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He makes attempts to minimize the paradoxes, but they are still there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) The \"Free Live Free\" model is mostly out, because Cassie would merge\ninto\nMargaret for as long as she was there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Right. In FLF, no two versions of Whitten are in the same \"present\" at the\nsame time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, its model of accumulating\nknowledge from the future to the past is an interesting one, especially\nthe\nway Whitten's original mission becomes unnecessary. We are left with a\nWhitten who remembers going to the future in a world where that didn't\nhappen, a world changed as a result of a trip he will no longer take. He\ndoesn't pop out of existence even though he has invalidated his past.\n(However, the merge gave him a stable anchor-point Margaret doesn't have)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. So long as Margaret exists, she is living testimonial to her failure.\nCassie doesn't need Margaret for anything. Margaret's role could have been\nplayed by anyone. But Cassie is everything to Margaret." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) The Talos play, based on its own description by Severian as the\nConciliator in \"Urth of the New Sun\" looks like a fixed-universe loop, but\nthere might be ways to build it up with overridden Whitten-like trips." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "had better be, because rewriting Sev's life has happened at least once." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even in a \"fixed-universe loop\" such as in the Urth Cycle, there is still a\nparadox.\n\n(I don't want to get diverted on a tangent, so I'm not going to ask if an\nastronomer on Urth would have seen a white hole approaching on the day Sev\nleft for Yesod.)\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meeting Margaret at the end could actually be of benefit to Cassie in an\naccumulating knowledge scenario. Margaret could pass on tips on what she\ndid, what didn't work, and so on from multiple cycles. That doesn't seem\nto\nhave happened in this novel, though Cassie could be lying to Klauser." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still say that meeting Margaret at the end is the proof that whatever she\ndoes will fail, otherwise Margaret couldn't/wouldn't be there. On a side\nnote, why *didn't* Margaret recognize herself on the street near the bank?\nPresumably, Margaret had lived through Cassie's trip to the bank and should\nhave been expecting her to be there.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<496EF000.1070404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-15T08:12:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<012301c9768b$3fe56620$c7cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI don't think she *can* escape her fate, and that is the way Wolfe intended\nit to be.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In spite of all the time-changing ideas I put in my previous post, I \nthink you're absolutely right. In a Lovecraftian world there are no \ndo-overs.\n\nThe repeat will be stable... but Margaret isn't sure of that at first. \nShe could tell herself, \"I have free will -- the last time the shot \nmissed a vital spot, but I have a chance to kill Gideon Chase.\"\n\nRemember that scene in the living room, where Cassie and Margaret are \nwatching the news together (pp. 86-89). Margaret controls the MUTE \nbutton. In \"MUTE\" two children struggle to escape the grounds of the \nhouse where their father died, and there is a moment of horror when we \nrealize there is no way out -- that all their work has brought them back \nto the exact same place. The two copies of Cassie wait for the news, \neach hoping for a different outcome. Margaret hears the exact same thing \nhas happened as before, and she has lost.\n\nA robin fighting its reflection is a picture of futility. When Cassie \nasks \"Have you ever wanted to help out somebody you loved, and known \nthat the only thing you could do for him was some tiny stupid thing that \nwas a lot of trouble? And done it anyway? Any of you?\" (p. 112), we can \nnow see a world of pain in the two-word sentence: \"Margaret nodded.\"\n\nThere's one more scene that takes on new meaning. On the hopper flight \nwith Gib, Margaret pretends she has never hopped before and fakes a \ngreat fear of flying (pp. 154-156). It's an excuse to keep her eyes \nclosed for the whole trip. She doesn't want Gib to see in her eyes how \nmuch she hates him, and to see the triumph in his look back at her.\n\nWith this reading, many of the objections to the book fall apart. Is it \ndisjointed, with no connection from the madcap beginning to the dark \nhorror ending? No, it's all horror, tied together by Cassie and \nMargaret. Does it end abruptly, giving no idea what will happen to \nCassie? No, as Paul Harvey says: \"Now we know... the rest of the story.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2009-01-16T03:41:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<496BADBA.6070203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:53 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nOther forms than wolves, dogs, and leopards are possible (p. 99). How about\na different-looking human?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe Cassie is actually every female character in the book. If we\njust looked hard enough we could find evidence. Maybe she's actually\nevery character in the book, including the men, the flying-things, and\nthe voices in the car. In the original take it was her that was\nkilled by the islanders. She's had some success - this time it was\nReis. but she's going to keep coming back as other characters until\nshe gets a happy ending.\n\nI mean, our protagonist is a time-traveling, shape-shifting actress.\nWhat timeline could describe her story? What list of characters could\nbe accurate? What assignment of motives could be trusted?\n\nThis is Wolfe's masterpiece. It's a story that cannot be interpreted.\n It's his own _Garden of Forking Paths_.\n\nEnamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006b01c9779c$1afc0fa0$efcf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-16T05:34:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<496EF000.1070404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nThere's one more scene that takes on new meaning. On the hopper flight\nwith Gib, Margaret pretends she has never hopped before and fakes a\ngreat fear of flying (pp. 154-156). It's an excuse to keep her eyes\nclosed for the whole trip. She doesn't want Gib to see in her eyes how\nmuch she hates him, and to see the triumph in his look back at her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gil Corby was in the cargo space behind the seats, so I don't think there\nwas any danger of making eye contact. And I don't know that he knew then (or\nany time before she went to Woldercan) that Margaret was Cassie. I assume\nthat any hop had the potential to warp time, and Margaret was afraid of what\nmight happen when the craft warped." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With this reading, many of the objections to the book fall apart. Is it\ndisjointed, with no connection from the madcap beginning to the dark\nhorror ending? No, it's all horror, tied together by Cassie and\nMargaret. Does it end abruptly, giving no idea what will happen to\nCassie? No, as Paul Harvey says: \"Now we know... the rest of the story.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sad, ain't it? But that's the way life really is--we don't get to do it\nover.\n\n(I wonder how few Listers ever heard of Paul Harvey.)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<944527.25834.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-16T06:11:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<006b01c9779c$1afc0fa0$efcf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paul Harvey is strangely apropos for a Gene Wolfe list. For those who don't know, he told little-known stories and anecdotes about famous people, or sometimes told common stories about them in ways that made them sound unfamiliar. Then, in the last \"reveal,\" you'd find out who the person was, and the whole thing would fall into place, seeming a bit like a completely different story on reflection. Remove the easy \"reveal,\" and you have a very Wolfean type of storytelling.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Roy C. Lackey \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:34:24 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gideon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nThere's one more scene that takes on new meaning. On the hopper flight\nwith Gib, Margaret pretends she has never hopped before and fakes a\ngreat fear of flying (pp. 154-156). It's an excuse to keep her eyes\nclosed for the whole trip. She doesn't want Gib to see in her eyes how\nmuch she hates him, and to see the triumph in his look back at her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gil Corby was in the cargo space behind the seats, so I don't think there\nwas any danger of making eye contact. And I don't know that he knew then (or\nany time before she went to Woldercan) that Margaret was Cassie. I assume\nthat any hop had the potential to warp time, and Margaret was afraid of what\nmight happen when the craft warped." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With this reading, many of the objections to the book fall apart. Is it\ndisjointed, with no connection from the madcap beginning to the dark\nhorror ending? No, it's all horror, tied together by Cassie and\nMargaret. Does it end abruptly, giving no idea what will happen to\nCassie? No, as Paul Harvey says: \"Now we know... the rest of the story.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sad, ain't it? But that's the way life really is--we don't get to do it\nover.\n\n(I wonder how few Listers ever heard of Paul Harvey.)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49707CF2.9080003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-16T12:26:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<006b01c9779c$1afc0fa0$efcf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nGil Corby was in the cargo space behind the seats, so I don't think there\nwas any danger of making eye contact. And I don't know that he knew then (or\nany time before she went to Woldercan) that Margaret was Cassie. I assume\nthat any hop had the potential to warp time, and Margaret was afraid of what\nmight happen when the craft warped.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's true that the other riders \"turned to speak with Corby\" (155), so \nMargaret could have kept from eye contact without holding her eyes shut. \nIt did give her an excuse not to look at him. She knew she was about to \nbe arrested and that Gib was working for the FBI. She didn't want to \nrisk giving him information that would make her interrogation more \ndifficult.\n\nThe time-warping fear seems implausible, since there seems to be a \nconnection between warping distance and the amount of time skipped. \nMessages to and from Woldercan seem to time-shift only a few days or \nweeks. To go back further, one must traverse an even greater distance. I \nthink this is the explanation for why the Milky Way looks like a \"little \nband of bright stars\" (301) at the end. Cassie has left Woldercan and \ngotten into position to make her run back into time.\n\nPossibly Cassie and Margaret being in close proximity makes it more \ndangerous. I'm starting a new theory on the reality-shifts. They seem to \nhappen only in places where the two are together. Perhaps the proximity \nof the two creates a paradox field. As Cassie says, \"it's liable to get \ncomplicated\" (298) when you mess with time paradoxes.\n\nFor example, look at what happened to Jimmy. He was sandwiched between \nCassie in the tiny dressing room (backing away from her) and Margaret \ncoming in (nearly bumping into her), on p. 56. Then \"...Cassie \nsuspected he would have run, had he still been capable of running\" (57). \nJimmy was in his sixties or seventies (52). Would age alone make him \nunable to run? Would he still be employed as a theater watchman if he \ncouldn't?\n\nA short time later, Jimmy was dead, apparently of natural causes. \nCassie's assumption at the time was that Reis killed Jimmy somehow, but \nlater we realize that isn't his style. Cassie half-heartedly asks \nMargaret to look into it for her (90), but nothing ever comes of this. \nThey seem to mutually agree to let it drop. There is one more possible \nsign of an uneasy conscience on Cassie's part: when she buys a hopper \nshe chooses a Jimmy Galactic (297).\n\nMore cases:\n1) Cassie's apartment number, address, and floor seem to move. Cassie \nand Margaret are together there more than once.\n2) When Cassie and Margaret are together at Rustermans, Margaret is \nidentified as \"Alexis's dresser\" and Margaret says softly \"I'm Miss \nCasey's dresser now, Miss White\" (60). Soon Alexis has been converted \ninto a waitress at Rusterman's.\n3) When Cassie needs a safe in her hotel room, Margaret helps her \nfind/create it.\n\nThis is a little better than my other theory where Cassie does all these \nchanges alone, by pure angelic power." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901160642g4f137751t343a0d2d7e645c33@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-16T14:42:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<49707CF2.9080003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "About this angelic stuff.\n\nI don't have the book at hand, but it's my recollection that, at\nCassie's \"raising,\" Cassie suggests that a \"raised\" human would be\n\"like an angel, or...\"\n\nI think that the \"or\" is what we should be looking at--Cassie was\nclearly about to say \"a god,\" and she's identified repeatedly as the\n\"green goddess.\" Although traditionally an angel is \"lower\" than a\ngod, I think here an angel would be higher--Cassie's on the plane of\nthe Overcyns." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/09, Dave Tallman wrote:\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gil Corby was in the cargo space behind the seats, so I don't think there\nwas any danger of making eye contact. And I don't know that he knew then\n(or\nany time before she went to Woldercan) that Margaret was Cassie. I assume\nthat any hop had the potential to warp time, and Margaret was afraid of\nwhat\nmight happen when the craft warped." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's true that the other riders \"turned to speak with Corby\" (155), so\nMargaret could have kept from eye contact without holding her eyes shut.\nIt did give her an excuse not to look at him. She knew she was about to\nbe arrested and that Gib was working for the FBI. She didn't want to\nrisk giving him information that would make her interrogation more\ndifficult.\n\nThe time-warping fear seems implausible, since there seems to be a\nconnection between warping distance and the amount of time skipped.\nMessages to and from Woldercan seem to time-shift only a few days or\nweeks. To go back further, one must traverse an even greater distance. I\nthink this is the explanation for why the Milky Way looks like a \"little\nband of bright stars\" (301) at the end. Cassie has left Woldercan and\ngotten into position to make her run back into time.\n\nPossibly Cassie and Margaret being in close proximity makes it more\ndangerous. I'm starting a new theory on the reality-shifts. They seem to\nhappen only in places where the two are together. Perhaps the proximity\nof the two creates a paradox field. As Cassie says, \"it's liable to get\ncomplicated\" (298) when you mess with time paradoxes.\n\nFor example, look at what happened to Jimmy. He was sandwiched between\nCassie in the tiny dressing room (backing away from her) and Margaret\ncoming in (nearly bumping into her), on p. 56. Then \"...Cassie\nsuspected he would have run, had he still been capable of running\" (57).\nJimmy was in his sixties or seventies (52). Would age alone make him\nunable to run? Would he still be employed as a theater watchman if he\ncouldn't?\n\nA short time later, Jimmy was dead, apparently of natural causes.\nCassie's assumption at the time was that Reis killed Jimmy somehow, but\nlater we realize that isn't his style. Cassie half-heartedly asks\nMargaret to look into it for her (90), but nothing ever comes of this.\nThey seem to mutually agree to let it drop. There is one more possible\nsign of an uneasy conscience on Cassie's part: when she buys a hopper\nshe chooses a Jimmy Galactic (297).\n\nMore cases:\n1) Cassie's apartment number, address, and floor seem to move. Cassie\nand Margaret are together there more than once.\n2) When Cassie and Margaret are together at Rustermans, Margaret is\nidentified as \"Alexis's dresser\" and Margaret says softly \"I'm Miss\nCasey's dresser now, Miss White\" (60). Soon Alexis has been converted\ninto a waitress at Rusterman's.\n3) When Cassie needs a safe in her hotel room, Margaret helps her\nfind/create it.\n\nThis is a little better than my other theory where Cassie does all these\nchanges alone, by pure angelic power.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40901161001i34d4a16bkacb62d101b9f9582@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-16T18:01:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gideon", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901160642g4f137751t343a0d2d7e645c33@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nI think that the \"or\" is what we should be looking at--Cassie was\n\nclearly about to say \"a god,\" and she's identified repeatedly as the\n\"green goddess.\" Although traditionally an angel is \"lower\" than a\ngod, I think here an angel would be higher--Cassie's on the plane of\n\nthe Overcyns.\n\nThat seems like a good analogy. She became as powerful in her own way as\nAble was in \"The Wizard.\" Some people called him an Overcyn. Angels were on\nthe next plane up, above Skai, and directly associated with the true God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm also interested in what powers she retained, and new skills she gained,\nas Margaret. She may have learned to walk unseen. I say that because there\nwas a doorman on guard at the Pine Crest Towers and the shooter seems to\nhave gotten past him without trouble. Also, when Chase first looked toward\nhis attacker, it only says he saw \"the muzzle of the gun\" (82).\n\nIf Margaret was the one, she had to have rapid healing. The shooter got a\ndeep cut to the face, so that there was \"gore everywhere\" (87). The cleaver\nwas covered with blood (88). Yet Margaret showed up only fifteen minutes\nlate with no apparent damage. If she could dance like the Volcano God she\nwas capable of great speed and leaps higher than a person's head (286).\n\nShe was also wilder inside, liberated from human morality. I have to wonder\nin what state she left Gideon back on Woldercan. She seems to have stolen a\ngreat deal of hopper fuel, if not Gideon's government hopper itself, in\norder to make the time hop. She had to kill him again in the past to get a\nhappy ending, but why not get some vengeance right away?" } ] } ] }