{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5313", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5313, "subject": "AEG: Margaret", "messages": 22, "voices": 6, "first": "2009-01-16T06:34:36+00:00", "last": "2009-01-26T21:07:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<008d01c977a4$83d84360$efcf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-16T06:34:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of Cassie as Margaret . . .\n\nAfter Gideon aided Cassie to bring out her \"star\" power, it is implied that\nshe was then elevated, transformed \"up\", to a state higher than normal for\nhumans. The text even suggests that her heightened state was somewhat\nangelic, though not, I believe, angelic in the usual religious sense. Cassie\nwas certainly no angel.\n\nSo if Margaret is really an over-the-hill Cassie who wants to give her\nyounger self a second chance at a happier life, who went to Woldercan\nseeking something she apparently didn't find, what did she accomplish there?\nIf, as Dave Tallman has suggested, Margaret is now a shape-changer, whether\nor not an actual werewolf, when and where did she acquire that ability, and\nwas it her choice?\n\nI mean, only humans can transform themselves; Wolders can't do it, and Gid\nsaid he (personally) couldn't do it. (99-100) So it doesn't seem likely that\nCassie learned how to transform on Woldercan.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4970473E.709@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-16T08:37:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<008d01c977a4$83d84360$efcf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSo if Margaret is really an over-the-hill Cassie who wants to give her\nyounger self a second chance at a happier life, who went to Woldercan\nseeking something she apparently didn't find, what did she accomplish there?\nIf, as Dave Tallman has suggested, Margaret is now a shape-changer, whether\nor not an actual werewolf, when and where did she acquire that ability, and\nwas it her choice?\n\nI mean, only humans can transform themselves; Wolders can't do it, and Gid\nsaid he (personally) couldn't do it. (99-100) So it doesn't seem likely that\nCassie learned how to transform on Woldercan.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's another place where Cassie could have begun to learn this. Chase \nsaid that werewolves \"want the wild and a liberation from human \nmorality\" (207). When the Volcano God danced with her, \"It freed \nsomething that had been bound before; after it she danced as he did...\" \n(286). The Volcano God was something of a shape-changer himself; he \nchose to appear to her as Vince. This may have been the start of her own \nability." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002c01c978ef$dcbd9a60$98d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-17T22:06:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<008d01c977a4$83d84360$efcf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nAfter Gideon aided Cassie to bring out her \"star\" power, it is implied\nthat\nshe was then elevated, transformed \"up\", to a state higher than normal for\nhumans. The text even suggests that her heightened state was somewhat\nangelic, though not, I believe, angelic in the usual religious sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cassie" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "was certainly no angel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not right. What Gid did for Cassie to bring out her star quality was\nto enhance what was already there. That is not the same thing as\nshape-shifting as defined by Gid. (99-100) Cassie still looked like Cassie,\nonly better and more charming. To shape-shift is to morph into another\nphysical form that is different from the original.\n\nIt is true that Cassie is no angel;there are none in the story. The only\nperson in the story to be called an angel is Wally Rosenquist, and that\nusage by India is a theater term for a financial backer with deep pockets.\nStill, one has to account for Gid's warning to Cassie about how hard it is\nfor humans to transform up and how easy it is for shape-shifters to\ntransform down. There should be someone in the story who has been\ntransformed up (probably with \"expert assistance\").\n\nGid may be talking to Cassie in oblique terms about Margaret-as-werewolf, if\nhe believes that she is one, but even then, he cannot mean Margaret as an\nexample of a human who has transformed up. As Gid explains it, \"It is so\neasy to go down that werewolves have trouble maintaining their human forms\nat times.\" (100) That statement suggests that the animal state is the normal\nstate for a werewolf, the state that they will revert to when they lose\ncontrol. In the only example we see in the book, the large wolf that\naccosted Scott was all animal, not some hairy-man form like we see in movies\nthat looks neither quite like a man nor a wolf.\n\nCassie asked about humans who have transformed up, \"Do they become angels?\nOr--or . . .\" Whatever she meant by \"or\", who in the story has been\ntransformed up?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4972732D.8090508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-18T00:09:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<002c01c978ef$dcbd9a60$98d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThat's not right. What Gid did for Cassie to bring out her star quality was\nto enhance what was already there. That is not the same thing as\nshape-shifting as defined by Gid. (99-100) Cassie still looked like Cassie,\nonly better and more charming. To shape-shift is to morph into another\nphysical form that is different from the original.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to disagree. Cassie was told \"It is easy, terribly easy, for \nsomeone who has transformed up to slip back down; and it wouldn't be \nright for me to die without having warned you\" (p. 100). Why would \nCassie need a warning about someone else slipping down? She was \ntransformed up, and needs to know that she could lose it. You say that \nit cannot be transformation if she doesn't look different. I say at \nleast her voice was different. Sharon asked her a test question about \nher mother's name in order to be sure it wasn't someone else tricking \nher over the phone (45).\n\nWhat Chase calls a \"higher form\" for Cassie even appeared spontaneously \nat times in her performances before he did anything for her. She clearly \ndidn't grow angel wings or something -- she manifested \"an indescribable \nsomething that electrified me\" (p. 207). He must use the words \"form\" \nand \"transform\" rather loosely and metaphorically.\n\nCould a plainer woman with a more subdued voice be a lower form? I think \nso. Chase admits the possibility of a \"man-man\" (p. 100), at least in \njest. The main differences are probably internal, manifested as a loss \nof human qualities. After years as Margaret she might have difficulty \ngetting herself to look as good and be as good as Cassie (even gray Cassie).\n\nIn short, I see no reason not to accept Cassie as a person who \ntransformed up, and Margaret as a person who transformed down. There is \na parallel with morals and aspirations, which is also rendered in \nphysical terms in the Wizard Knight. Don't they say the same thing about \nit being easier to go down than up when they talk about the universe levels?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002801c97911$a4967ae0$c2d24a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-18T02:08:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<4972732D.8090508@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nThat's not right. What Gid did for Cassie to bring out her star quality\nwas\nto enhance what was already there. That is not the same thing as\nshape-shifting as defined by Gid. (99-100) Cassie still looked like\nCassie,\nonly better and more charming. To shape-shift is to morph into another\nphysical form that is different from the original." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to disagree. Cassie was told \"It is easy, terribly easy, for\nsomeone who has transformed up to slip back down; and it wouldn't be\nright for me to die without having warned you\" (p. 100). Why would\nCassie need a warning about someone else slipping down?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because there may be others who have transformed that she should be careful\nof--even if he only meant Margaret." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She was\ntransformed up, and needs to know that she could lose it. You say that\nit cannot be transformation if she doesn't look different. I say at\nleast her voice was different." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not enough. It's not the radical transformation Gid spoke of, such as\nhuman to animal form, as different as Carlos and the wolf that got Scott." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What Chase calls a \"higher form\" for Cassie even appeared spontaneously\nat times in her performances before he did anything for her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. He only enhanced what she already had.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In short, I see no reason not to accept Cassie as a person who\ntransformed up, and Margaret as a person who transformed down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree for reasons stated previously. But even if you are right, that\ndoesn't satisfy the question Cassie asked about humans who have transformed\nup, \"Do they become angels? Or--or . . .\" By your own account, the\ntransformation of Margaret to werewolf is down, not up. Angels or what? I'm\nsure you will agree that a werebeast is not a step up on the moral and\naspirational level.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901171834i213de514gfe5bdb50bd5e22a6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-18T02:34:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<002801c97911$a4967ae0$c2d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\n\nI disagree for reasons stated previously. But even if you are right, that\ndoesn't satisfy the question Cassie asked about humans who have transformed\nup, \"Do they become angels? Or--or . . .\" By your own account, the\ntransformation of Margaret to werewolf is down, not up. Angels or what?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"or gods.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49729A3C.4030902@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-18T02:55:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<002801c97911$a4967ae0$c2d24a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThat's not enough. It's not the radical transformation Gid spoke of, such as\nhuman to animal form, as different as Carlos and the wolf that got Scott.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We seem to be talking past each other, and I'm not sure how to resolve \nit. I believe Cassie's transformation up to star/goddess and Margaret's \nto possibly immoral shapechanger are sufficient. Since you do not, the \nburden of proof is on you to find better candidates.\n\nHere are some we could look at:\n1) Hanga -- a human who went down to shark level, or a shark that went up?\n2) The Volcano God -- possibly a human who transformed up.\n3) The assassin and the detective -- possibly transformed down" } ] }, { "message_id": "<74354.99178.qm@web23207.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Tom Foster", "address": "tbfoster at bethere.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-01-18T09:12:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<49729A3C.4030902@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote: \nGid may be talking to Cassie in oblique terms about\nMargaret-as-werewolf, if\nhe believes that she is one, but even then, he cannot mean\nMargaret as an\nexample of a human who has transformed up. As Gid explains\nit, \"It is so\neasy to go down that werewolves have trouble maintaining\ntheir human forms\nat times.\" (100) That statement suggests that the\nanimal state is the normal\nstate for a werewolf, the state that they will revert to\nwhen they lose\ncontrol. In the only example we see in the book, the large\nwolf that\naccosted Scott was all animal, not some hairy-man form like\nwe see in movies\nthat looks neither quite like a man nor a wolf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My impression from this scene was that the man leading the wolf on a 'ludicrously thin leash' (I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the book with me) was the human element of the werewolf, and that Cassie was seeing through the werewolf's 'charm', or whatever. Presumably the other diners just saw a man walk up to Scott, but Cassie can somehow see the true dual nature of the werewolf, perhaps because she has been 'raised up' herself.\n\nIf this is the case, then surely she'd also be able to identify other werewolfs, i.e. Margaret, if indeed she were one (heh, heh). \n\nI've only just finished the book, and have been enjoying going back through the past few months' postings on the book, which I had avoided reading up until now.\n\nI also wanted to mention a quick snippet from a previous post:\n\n**************On Wed Oct 29th, Nigel Price wrote:\n\n?In the context of allegorical interpretations of AEG and the significance of gold in the story, Matthew Henry's use of the proverb is interesting. In his \"Concise Commentary\", he writes concerning the Parable of the Pearl of Great Price in Matthew 13.44-52:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A man may buy gold too dear, but not this\nPearl of great price. *********************" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought that this was an interesting quote, given the alchemy theme in AEG; the philosopher’s stone is often referred to in medieval alchemical tracts as \"the pearl of great price\".\n\n\nTom\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4972FB87.5050506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-18T09:51:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<74354.99178.qm@web23207.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My impression from this scene was that the man leading the wolf on a 'ludicrously thin leash' (I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the book with me) was the human element of the werewolf, and that Cassie was seeing through the werewolf's 'charm', or whatever. Presumably the other diners just saw a man walk up to Scott, but Cassie can somehow see the true dual nature of the werewolf, perhaps because she has been 'raised up' herself.\n\nIf this is the case, then surely she'd also be able to identify other werewolfs, i.e. Margaret, if indeed she were one (heh, heh). \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, Ebony said \"A woman tried to pet it. Did you see that?\" (p. 190). \nThe petting woman must have seen a wolf or dog, and so did Ebony. Cassie \ndidn't see anything different than the others.\n\nThe werewolf was smart enough to carry out Wally's orders by himself. He \nwas to come in, tell Scott he was wolf food, and lead him out. The other \nman with the thin leash was window dressing. A huge wolf coming into a \nrestaurant by itself would cause a panic. The leash would allow people \nto tell themselves \"Oh, it's just a dog.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought that this was an interesting quote, given the alchemy theme in AEG; the philosopher’s stone is often referred to in medieval alchemical tracts as \"the pearl of great price\".\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And in the Matthew context, the Pearl is the Gospel." } ] }, { "message_id": "<38766.26998.qm@web23203.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Tom Foster", "address": "tbfoster at bethere.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-01-18T14:07:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<4972FB87.5050506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nMy impression from this scene was that the man leading\nthe wolf on a 'ludicrously thin leash' (I'm\nparaphrasing as I don't have the book with me) was the\nhuman element of the werewolf, and that Cassie was seeing\nthrough the werewolf's 'charm', or whatever.\nPresumably the other diners just saw a man walk up to Scott,\nbut Cassie can somehow see the true dual nature of the\nwerewolf, perhaps because she has been 'raised up'\nherself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If this is the case, then surely she'd also be\nable to identify other werewolfs, i.e. Margaret, if indeed\nshe were one (heh, heh). \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman corrected me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, Ebony said \"A woman tried to pet it. Did you see\nthat?\" (p. 190). \nThe petting woman must have seen a wolf or dog, and so did\nEbony. Cassie \ndidn't see anything different than the others.\n\nThe werewolf was smart enough to carry out Wally's\norders by himself. He \nwas to come in, tell Scott he was wolf food, and lead him\nout. The other \nman with the thin leash was window dressing. A huge wolf\ncoming into a \nrestaurant by itself would cause a panic. The leash would\nallow people \nto tell themselves \"Oh, it's just a dog.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what you get for relying on memory alone, I guess. You're quite right about the woman trying to pet it; I had forgotten that bit. I guess I was thinking of the Short Sun books, and the way different characters manifest their real natures in their appearances at times. \n\nHas anyone commented on the various notes Cassie receives throughout the novel from Gid and Wally? They all seem gushingly, embarassingly OTT and somewhat out of character for the senders. Are they just supposed to signify her amazing magnetism? I must admit that I didn't find Cassie to be an especially sympathetic character.\n\nDid it strike anyone else as slightly suspicious that Cassie insisted on going for a walk on the beach with Wallace, then making out half in the sea, after being asked by the Storm God's emissary to do just that? I know Wallace had explained that there were lots of beaches in the area, and the Storm God couldn't watch them all, but it still seems almost like tempting fate...\n\nAs others have commented, the way Cassie is transformed by Prof Chase seems very reminiscent of the Dr Talos/Jolenta thaumaturgy (love that word!) and the idea of going up/down a level seems very similar to 'The Wizard Knight', not to mention sea monsters and werewolves! Wolfe certainly has his recurring tropes.\n\nAs a great Lovecraft fan, I agree with an earlier post that AEG shouldn't be sold as a Lovecraftian novel - the few Lovecraftian elements seemed a bit tacked on, and the book wouldn't really suffer if the Storm God was just the plain old Storm God.\n\nApologies for rambling - I'm still thinking my way through it, and could do with re-reading it soon, I suspect. I wish I'd brought it to work with me today! \n\n\nTom\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4973A169.7010703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-18T21:38:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<38766.26998.qm@web23203.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Has anyone commented on the various notes Cassie receives throughout the novel from Gid and Wally? They all seem gushingly, embarassingly OTT and somewhat out of character for the senders. Are they just supposed to signify her amazing magnetism? I must admit that I didn't find Cassie to be an especially sympathetic character.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chase's note (p. 216) doesn't seem OTT or OOC to me. Other than the \nfirst and last paragraphs, the rest gets down to the business of \ndelivering her to Kololahi for Reis. The love parts seem barely sincere. \nIf he \"loved her for years\" (presumably from watching her performances) \nwhy did he never make a move until she could be useful as bait in a scheme?\n\nWally's notes are a bit OTT, but he talks about love that way in person, \ntoo. \"...I'll win. With a green goddess at my side\" (125). That's about \nas flowery as his note on p. 175.\n\nThe note from Wally that feels completely wrong is the one on p. 254. \n\"...Did you feel my kiss? I'm hungry for yours!\" Pretty corny, and \nthere's not one word about the danger she was in. It almost feels like \nit was written at a different time and delivered out-of-context -- is \nthis another hint of time-travel for Reis?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did it strike anyone else as slightly suspicious that Cassie insisted on going for a walk on the beach with Wallace, then making out half in the sea, after being asked by the Storm God's emissary to do just that? I know Wallace had explained that there were lots of beaches in the area, and the Storm God couldn't watch them all, but it still seems almost like tempting fate...\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They weren't in the Takanga group at the time, but on some other island \nReis chose for the private conversation. He didn't even want to say the \nname out loud, in case they were bugged (268). Perhaps the Volcano God \nprovided some protection as well. By the way, I notice that everyone \nworries about minaturized bugs, but nobody seems to be afraid of GPS \n(for example, Gideon's actions on p. 21 make no sense if there could be \nGPS chips in the photos). Have all the GPS satellites been taken down?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As others have commented, the way Cassie is transformed by Prof Chase seems very reminiscent of the Dr Talos/Jolenta thaumaturgy (love that word!) and the idea of going up/down a level seems very similar to 'The Wizard Knight', not to mention sea monsters and werewolves! Wolfe certainly has his recurring tropes.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Talos didn't care at all about Jolenta; he only wished to use her for \nBaldander's purposes. That seems to shed some light on Gideon's feeling \nfor Cassie." } ] }, { "message_id": "<005b01c979b7$3e536a80$d5d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-18T21:53:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<49729A3C.4030902@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nThat's not enough. It's not the radical transformation Gid spoke of,\nsuch as\nhuman to animal form, as different as Carlos and the wolf that got\nScott." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We seem to be talking past each other, and I'm not sure how to resolve\nit. I believe Cassie's transformation up to star/goddess and Margaret's\nto possibly immoral shapechanger are sufficient. Since you do not, the\nburden of proof is on you to find better candidates." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should have said Al, not Carlos as the wolf.\n\nYou evidently believe that Cassie was elevated by Gid to the level of a\ngoddess. I have trouble seeing Cassie as a goddess in any meaningful sense\nof the word, either by traditional or Lupine standards. The Old World\ngoddesses in, say, the Latro books, have supernatural powers that they\nexercise to intervene in human lives and on the objective world. Cassie\ndemonstrates no such powers. She was powerless to prevent her lover's death\nor to get herself off that island, for example. She became an object of\ndesire with the requisite mien of a Hollywood star, but that is as far as it\nwent. And her comportment was by no stretch angelic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here are some we could look at:\n1) Hanga -- a human who went down to shark level, or a shark that went up?\n2) The Volcano God -- possibly a human who transformed up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is the possibility that I was getting at. I mentioned before how, at\ntimes, in Cassie's mind, it almost seems as if she regards Bill and Wally as\ntwo different people. Then consider the \"angel or what\" bit and India's\n\"angel\", the only person so called in the book. How different is India's\nangel, the man Cassie came to profess love for, from the man the president\nsaid was the most \"evil man in the world\"?\n\nI don't think Gid ever refers to Reis as Wally Rosenquist, and when Cassie\nfirst spoke that name to him he reacted as if he had never heard the name.\nThereafter he remains noncommital about her usage. In the islands, Wally\nsets Cassie up as the \"green goddess\", with himself as her consort and fit\ncompanion for a \"goddess\".\n\n*If* there is a moral component to transforming up, did bad Bill become the\nsomewhat benevolent Wally, who hoped to fight the aliens and make the world\na better place? If there is no moral component to transformation, might a\nspirit or nature god be the \"or what\"?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4973C450.9050505@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-19T00:07:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<005b01c979b7$3e536a80$d5d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nYou evidently believe that Cassie was elevated by Gid to the level of a\ngoddess. I have trouble seeing Cassie as a goddess in any meaningful sense\nof the word, either by traditional or Lupine standards. The Old World\ngoddesses in, say, the Latro books, have supernatural powers that they\nexercise to intervene in human lives and on the objective world. Cassie\ndemonstrates no such powers. She was powerless to prevent her lover's death\nor to get herself off that island, for example. She became an object of\ndesire with the requisite mien of a Hollywood star, but that is as far as it\nwent. And her comportment was by no stretch angelic.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do think so, because strange things are going on around her other than \nher new attractiveness. Addresses are shifting, etc. Her power seems not \nto be under conscious control, and it may be blocked (perhaps by Gid's \npost-hypnotic suggestions). Something gets unblocked when she dances \nwith the Volcano God, but it's too late." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/ 2) The Volcano God -- possibly a human who transformed up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\nThat is the possibility that I was getting at. I mentioned before how, at\ntimes, in Cassie's mind, it almost seems as if she regards Bill and Wally as\ntwo different people. Then consider the \"angel or what\" bit and India's\n\"angel\", the only person so called in the book. How different is India's\nangel, the man Cassie came to profess love for, from the man the president\nsaid was the most \"evil man in the world\"?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, suppose Reis has transformed up. He would probably require expert \nassistance, and by your previous arguments he couldn't learn that on \nWoldercan. Is that a consulting service he got from Gid? It's doubtful \nthat was the original deal, because Gid never refers to such a thing \nwhen brainstorming with Cassie when Reis is an enemy. It could be part \nof the second deal with Gid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*If* there is a moral component to transforming up, did bad Bill become the\nsomewhat benevolent Wally, who hoped to fight the aliens and make the world\na better place? If there is no moral component to transformation, might a\nspirit or nature god be the \"or what\"?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To have these aspects co-exist in time, we need time-travel for him, \ntoo. Call the old Reis Bill -- he's an evil, murderous, blackmailer. He \ncame around backstage that night and possibly rubbed out Jimmy. Then he \nmet Cassie and got charmed. He made arrangements with Chase to get \nraised to a higher level himself. The new and better man, Wally, came \nback in time after transformation to do a nicer job of wooing Cassie. \nHis powers are less blocked than hers, so he can exist in some form \nafter death. He chose to appear to Cassie as Vince Palma's Volcano God \n(maybe to spare her pain) and gave her a little help by starting a fire, \netc.\n\nThat's not a bad theory (I'm not sure how much of it corresponds with \nyours), though it leaves lots of open questions.\n1) Would Gid help a half-enemy to such a degree?\n2) Why ask Cassie to \"leave flowers\"?\n3) What does Cassie think is possible regarding Wally in the end? If she \nwants him to come back, why not go back to the island instead of out to \nWoldercan?\n4) Is Wally an established alias? It seems to be known to the business \ncommunity already, and Reis much less so. You'd think it would be the \nother way around.\n5) In the book, which appearances are Bill and which are Wally?\n\nIs this the sort of theory you have in mind?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2009-01-19T00:23:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<005b01c979b7$3e536a80$d5d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 18 Jan 2009, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n*If* there is a moral component to transforming up, did bad Bill become the\nsomewhat benevolent Wally, who hoped to fight the aliens and make the world\na better place?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My take on Bill/Wally is that he become a \"superhero\", specifically the \n_the Shadow_. That character fights evil, but uses violent methods, and \nis distrusted by most of the authorities, although he does have links with \na few police.\n\nHaving just returned my copy of AEG to the library, I can't point to the \nexact reference where Gideon? suggests that Reis is similar to Cassie in \nbeing elevated in some way.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002c01c97ac2$24157580$47d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-20T05:44:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<4973C450.9050505@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nYou evidently believe that Cassie was elevated by Gid to the level of a\ngoddess. I have trouble seeing Cassie as a goddess in any meaningful\nsense\nof the word, either by traditional or Lupine standards. The Old World\ngoddesses in, say, the Latro books, have supernatural powers that they\nexercise to intervene in human lives and on the objective world. Cassie\ndemonstrates no such powers. She was powerless to prevent her lover's\ndeath\nor to get herself off that island, for example. She became an object of\ndesire with the requisite mien of a Hollywood star, but that is as far\nas it\nwent. And her comportment was by no stretch angelic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do think so, because strange things are going on around her other than\nher new attractiveness. Addresses are shifting, etc. Her power seems not\nto be under conscious control, and it may be blocked (perhaps by Gid's\npost-hypnotic suggestions). Something gets unblocked when she dances\nwith the Volcano God, but it's too late." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm still not sold on the reality-warping bit, partly because no one, not\neven Cassie, seems to notice the discrepancies you have mentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "/ 2) The Volcano God -- possibly a human who transformed up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/\nThat is the possibility that I was getting at. I mentioned before how,\nat\ntimes, in Cassie's mind, it almost seems as if she regards Bill and\nWally as\ntwo different people. Then consider the \"angel or what\" bit and India's\n\"angel\", the only person so called in the book. How different is India's\nangel, the man Cassie came to profess love for, from the man the\npresident\nsaid was the most \"evil man in the world\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ok, suppose Reis has transformed up. He would probably require expert\nassistance, and by your previous arguments he couldn't learn that on\nWoldercan. Is that a consulting service he got from Gid? It's doubtful\nthat was the original deal, because Gid never refers to such a thing\nwhen brainstorming with Cassie when Reis is an enemy. It could be part\nof the second deal with Gid." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gid is the only known expert in the book, so he would almost have to be the\none who assisted any theoretical transformation up. Gid admits to not\ntelling the whole truth and told Cassie never to volunteer information when\nhe was instructing her how best to lie (94), so I'm sure he wasn't telling\nher all his business." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*If* there is a moral component to transforming up, did bad Bill become\nthe\nsomewhat benevolent Wally, who hoped to fight the aliens and make the\nworld\na better place? If there is no moral component to transformation, might\na\nspirit or nature god be the \"or what\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To have these aspects co-exist in time, we need time-travel for him,\ntoo. Call the old Reis Bill -- he's an evil, murderous, blackmailer. He\ncame around backstage that night and possibly rubbed out Jimmy. Then he\nmet Cassie and got charmed. He made arrangements with Chase to get\nraised to a higher level himself. The new and better man, Wally, came\nback in time after transformation to do a nicer job of wooing Cassie." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it happened that way, there would be no need for him to go back in time.\nBill just becomes Wally. Time travel by hopper seems too iffy to exercise\nfine control." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His powers are less blocked than hers, so he can exist in some form\nafter death. He chose to appear to Cassie as Vince Palma's Volcano God\n(maybe to spare her pain) and gave her a little help by starting a fire,\netc.\n\nThat's not a bad theory (I'm not sure how much of it corresponds with\nyours), though it leaves lots of open questions.\n1) Would Gid help a half-enemy to such a degree?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gid is playing everyone involved to one degree or another to suit his own\nends." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Why ask Cassie to \"leave flowers\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know. Why did Pat Gomez do the same, particularly since it seems so\nbizarre in the circumstances? But it seems to be why Cassie had just come\nfrom Oakland before speaking to Klauser. Best I can tell, Pat somehow\nassisted, or at least tried, to keep Cassie from dying the night of the\nstorm, when both Cassie and Reis were supposed to die. As indicated by Pat\nsaying to Cassie, \"You will live.\", contradicting the dead assassin. (280)\nThe two \"leave flowers\" bits must be related somehow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) What does Cassie think is possible regarding Wally in the end? If she\nwants him to come back, why not go back to the island instead of out to\nWoldercan?\n4) Is Wally an established alias? It seems to be known to the business\ncommunity already, and Reis much less so. You'd think it would be the\nother way around.\n5) In the book, which appearances are Bill and which are Wally?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know. But when Reis and Cassie had their walk on that island, he is\nreferred to as Reis, she calls him Bill, then calls him Wally and asks him\nif it is okay to call him Wally sometimes. (270) Odd." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this the sort of theory you have in mind?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know yet what I have in mind; I've hardly begun to connect all the\ndots. It would help if I knew why the Volcano God chose to appear to Cassie\nas Vince instead of Bill/Wally, and why *he* thought she might see him\nagain. How? Why would he think that? The fire she built was as much a ritual\nfire as a rescue beacon.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4975CB1C.7050503@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-20T13:01:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<002c01c97ac2$24157580$47d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey quoted and wrote:\n/ To have these aspects co-exist in time, we need time-travel for him,\n/>/ too. Call the old Reis Bill -- he's an evil, murderous, blackmailer. He\n/>/ came around backstage that night and possibly rubbed out Jimmy. Then he\n/>/ met Cassie and got charmed. He made arrangements with Chase to get\n/>/ raised to a higher level himself. The new and better man, Wally, came\n/>/ back in time after transformation to do a nicer job of wooing Cassie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\nIf it happened that way, there would be no need for him to go back in time.\nBill just becomes Wally. Time travel by hopper seems too iffy to exercise\nfine control.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In almost every variation of this I can think of, Cassie saw both the \n\"before\" and \"after\" version of Bill. But there is no mention of her \nseeing anything different about him. I really doubt he was transformed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/ 2) Why ask Cassie to \"leave flowers\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\nI don't know. Why did Pat Gomez do the same, particularly since it seems so\nbizarre in the circumstances? But it seems to be why Cassie had just come\nfrom Oakland before speaking to Klauser. Best I can tell, Pat somehow\nassisted, or at least tried, to keep Cassie from dying the night of the\nstorm, when both Cassie and Reis were supposed to die. As indicated by Pat\nsaying to Cassie, \"You will live.\", contradicting the dead assassin. (280)\nThe two \"leave flowers\" bits must be related somehow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking along those lines, too. Pat Gomez was dead, a zombie, and \nshe wanted someone to lay flowers on her grave, even though her body was \nnot there. Likewise, Bill's body was not on the Volcano God's island, \nbut the black coral image was a gravestone of sorts, associated with the \nplace they first made love. Cassie honored both requests for flowers.\n\nDid Pat help save Cassie, or just predict her escape? Some say the dead \nare outside of time, able to see the future. Or Pat might have helped by \ncalling the bat-creatures. They called Death's Visitors. Most of their \nappearances to Cassie are right after a violent death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/ 5) In the book, which appearances are Bill and which are Wally?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\nI don't know. But when Reis and Cassie had their walk on that island, he is\nreferred to as Reis, she calls him Bill, then calls him Wally and asks him\nif it is okay to call him Wally sometimes. (270) Odd.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never saw the distinction you made, with Bill and Wally as separate \npeople in Cassie's mind. Wally is like a pet name she choses after she \nhas come to love him. Cassie explains this on p. 288: \"My husband's name \nwasn't Wally. Not really. It was Bill. I called him Wally a-- a lot. It \nwas a little private joke we had.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know yet what I have in mind; I've hardly begun to connect all the\ndots. It would help if I knew why the Volcano God chose to appear to Cassie\nas Vince instead of Bill/Wally, and why *he* thought she might see him\nagain. How? Why would he think that? The fire she built was as much a ritual\nfire as a rescue beacon.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vince is still an unknown in my mind. He's an established actor, having \ndone TV or movie work (westerns, p. 65), voiceovers (Memorare), and the \nstage. His voice makes everything he says sound important (285). Was he \ntransformed up? It's troublesome to explain how Vince ended up in a play \nclose to Cassie before she became involved in Chase's plot. Is a time \ntraveler setting things up?\n\nHow might Cassie see Wally again? If Cassie goes back in time as \nMargaret, she will see him again, not very happily. Or he could mean in \nthe life to come." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003f01c97b96$a0259c20$26d34a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-21T07:05:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<4975CB1C.7050503@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI never saw the distinction you made, with Bill and Wally as separate\npeople in Cassie's mind. Wally is like a pet name she choses after she\nhas come to love him. Cassie explains this on p. 288: \"My husband's name\nwasn't Wally. Not really. It was Bill. I called him Wally a-- a lot. It\nwas a little private joke we had.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Otoh, that whole account of how she came to be stranded is a tissue of\nhalf-truths and evasions, a fine example of Gid's lecture about how best to\nmislead people.\n\nCassie was told contradictory versions of the gold bracelet's origins. There\nis the green-dress business and Wally being/not being in the audience. In\nthe beach conversation, she called him a wizard (making gold, vanishing),\njust after he had told her that a wizard (meaning Chase) could never be\ntrusted. (269-270)\n\nShe reminded him that he had once told her he (Reis) could be trusted and\nhis word was always good. He reacted as if he didn't remember saying that.\n(270) He hadn't had that many conversations with her. How could he have\nforgotten something like that, particularly when his original point in\nsaying it was to gain her trust? Three pages later, it comes out how he\ndeceived her (and Kanoa) about using depth charges on the Storm King." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Vince is still an unknown in my mind. He's an established actor, having\ndone TV or movie work (westerns, p. 65), voiceovers (Memorare), and the\nstage. His voice makes everything he says sound important (285). Was he\ntransformed up?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. She told the Vince-figure that he wasn't really Vince and\nthat she had never liked Vince anyway. But she liked this entity, \"whoever\nyou are.\" Yet earlier, when noting the correspondences between real-life\npeople in the islands with characters in the play, she told herself, \"I only\nhope I never meet Vince.\", meaning, of course, the Volcano God. Too bad we\ndon't know how Wally's play ended; it might shed some light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's troublesome to explain how Vince ended up in a play\nclose to Cassie before she became involved in Chase's plot. Is a time\ntraveler setting things up?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see any good reason to suppose that Vince is anything more than he\nappears to be, an actor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How might Cassie see Wally again? If Cassie goes back in time as\nMargaret, she will see him again, not very happily. Or he could mean in\nthe life to come." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think W.R. was too alpha to be that passive, unless the life to come means\nsomething other than what it means for most people. I have no idea\nwhatsoever what it means for a human to be in any sense a volcano god.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4976FED5.6080508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T10:54:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<003f01c97b96$a0259c20$26d34a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey quoted and wrote:\n/ I never saw the distinction you made, with Bill and Wally as separate\n/>/ people in Cassie's mind. Wally is like a pet name she choses after she\n/>/ has come to love him. Cassie explains this on p. 288: \"My husband's name\n/>/ wasn't Wally. Not really. It was Bill. I called him Wally a-- a lot. It\n/>/ was a little private joke we had.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\nOtoh, that whole account of how she came to be stranded is a tissue of\nhalf-truths and evasions, a fine example of Gid's lecture about how best to\nmislead people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are half-truths and evasions, but no outright inventions I can \nsee. It' s interesting how she hesitates, though. Did she start to say \nsomething else, like, \"I called him Wally as...\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cassie was told contradictory versions of the gold bracelet's origins. There\nis the green-dress business and Wally being/not being in the audience. In\nthe beach conversation, she called him a wizard (making gold, vanishing),\njust after he had told her that a wizard (meaning Chase) could never be\ntrusted. (269-270)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The contradictory versions of the gold bracelet show that Reis was \nlying, IMHO, not that there were two of him. During the stroll on the \nbeach he finally admitted it was radioactive gold:\n Reis:\"The gold made you think of that first bracelet...\",\n Casssie: \"...We've already talked a little about the gold. \nRadioactive gold.\"\n Reis: \"We have.\"\nGiving her the bracelet was a criminal assault; it was natural for him \nto lie during the presentation. He changed his story at Rusterman's \n(121) because he wanted to explain why he took the bracelet back without \ngiving the real reason. He thought she might be flattered and mollified \nif he told her he made it especially for her.\n\nThe green/brown dress and the being/not being in the audience I do take \nas evidence of clones. My favorite theory right now is that Reis doubled \nback in time to see the play he missed that night, after he became \nattracted to Cassie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She reminded him that he had once told her he (Reis) could be trusted and\nhis word was always good. He reacted as if he didn't remember saying that.\n(270) He hadn't had that many conversations with her. How could he have\nforgotten something like that, particularly when his original point in\nsaying it was to gain her trust? Three pages later, it comes out how he\ndeceived her (and Kanoa) about using depth charges on the Storm King.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took the \"You said your word was always good?\"...\"Did I? I probably \ndid.\" to be a sign that Cassie made such a generalization of what he \nsaid that he hardly recognized it. What he really said was: \"...in \nbusiness matters I can be trusted absolutely. I do not cheat. Most \nparticularly, I do not cheat my partners.\" He didn't say he never lied \nin matters of love.\n\nReis was vehement that he told no actual lie to Kanoa (273), and I think \nhe was technically but not morally correct. He said, \"I will not attack \nthe Storm King, or his city, with depth charges. Or attack them at all \nwithout telling you what I plan\" (254). He put a concentration of gold \naround the city, leading to Navy attack; he chose to consider that a \ngypsy trick rather than an attack in itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so. She told the Vince-figure that he wasn't really Vince and\nthat she had never liked Vince anyway. But she liked this entity, \"whoever\nyou are.\" Yet earlier, when noting the correspondences between real-life\npeople in the islands with characters in the play, she told herself, \"I only\nhope I never meet Vince.\", meaning, of course, the Volcano God. Too bad we\ndon't know how Wally's play ended; it might shed some light.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're right that Vince was just an actor. But symbolically he \nwas a representative of Reis in the play. Here are some things I deduce \nabout the play:\n\n1) The Volcano God was a dangerous villain in the play -- \"I only hope I \nnever meet Vince\" (249).\n\n2) \"Remember the show? The banquet you made for me? The way you danced \nwith Gil and me?\" (285). It seems he was wooing Mariah in a love \ntriangle with Mr. Sharpy. He offered her a banquet. This is a very close \nmatch to the Cassie/Gideon/Wally triangle, including dining out. The \ndance might have been a dream sequence, like the Laurey/Curly/Judd dance \nin \"Oklahoma.\"\n\n3) Vince had a speech about coconuts (107). This may relate to the \nbanquet, but I suspect it was a double-entendre about Mariah's breasts.\n\n4) Aunt Jane loved the Volcano God: \"And how I love his boiling lava...\" \n(138), suggesting she will betray Mariah in the play, and foreshadowing \nNorma's possible betrayal of Cassie. She has an unhappy role. since she \nis only supposed to smile once (131).\n\n5) Like the gold bracelet, the play was designed for Cassie's \ndestruction. I suggest there was a scene where she was thrown down a \nstage volcano; that would be a fine way to arrange an \"accidental\" death.\n\n6) Cassie on Zelda trying to get her to sign up for the play: \"She's \nsold me down the volcano...\" (83).\n\n7) As a musical, the play would normally have a happy ending of some \nsort. But there could be a twist. One would expect Mariah to end up with \nthe sailor, but Reis named him \"Mr. Sharpy\" (a sharper, a confidence \ntrickster). He was the parallel to Chase. Since the play was intended to \nsend a message to Chase, Mariah probably ended up with the Volcano God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think W.R. was too alpha to be that passive, unless the life to come means\nsomething other than what it means for most people. I have no idea\nwhatsoever what it means for a human to be in any sense a volcano god.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The island of Takanga Ha'i seems to have two mountains, one for the \npalace and one an active volcano. Probably the King's mountain was also \na volcano, now inactive. That gaves Reis a strong association with the \nVolcano God. Perhaps he joined with the Volcano God's spirit after \ndeath. His appearance as Vince Palma rather than Wally suggests the \nbeing Cassie saw was not simply the ghost of Reis." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4979D05E.6050708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-23T14:12:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<002c01c97ac2$24157580$47d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI'm still not sold on the reality-warping bit, partly because no one, not\neven Cassie, seems to notice the discrepancies you have mentioned.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another possibility (one I don't like as well) is that Kingsport is a \nhaunted, Lovecraftian location where this kind of location and time \nshifting happens all the time. In ''The Festival\" a visitor to Kingsport \nis shifted back in time without realizing it. In \"The Dream Quest of the \nUnknown Kadath,\" Randolph Carter sees Kingsport as it used to be. I \ndon't have a problem with people not noticing the shifts, since memories \nare probably shifted correspondingly. In \"Dark City\" this sort of thing \nis the norm -- the city shifts and memories are edited by the \ncontrolling beings of the place.\n\nHere are a few more location puzzles:\n1) Cassie lives within walking distance of a Baskin Robbins, on the \ncorner of 15th and Madison (23). This suggests a part of the city with a \ngrid layout, with numbered streets running N/S and streets named for \nPresidents running E/W. Arbor Street doesn't fit the pattern.\n\n2) The eastern part of the city is older, dating from colonial times \n(294). The city probably grew west from the harbor. The eastern part has \nplaces with cheaper rents (293).\n\n3) Ian Mersey comments on the shooting: \"Hear 'bout the bloke who got \nshot in Pine Crest Towers?\" (87), seeming to assume they would know the \nplace. Is it a famous location, or perhaps close by? Both Cassie's \nbuilding and the Towers have doormen.\n\n4) Who is Mersey, anyway? He talks with an old-fashioned English style. \nChase knows him, enough to trust him to smuggle him out of the building \n(100-101). Is he a time-traveler from a \"Liverpool ship\"? How did he \njust happen to end up working in the building where Cassie lives?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497A4AA6.3040906@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-23T22:54:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<4979D05E.6050708@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) Who is Mersey, anyway? He talks with an old-fashioned English style. \nChase knows him, enough to trust him to smuggle him out of the building \n(100-101). Is he a time-traveler from a \"Liverpool ship\"? How did he \njust happen to end up working in the building where Cassie lives?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One more thing about Ian Mersey: Liverpool is a major port on the Mersey \nRiver in England. Just after Ian smuggles him out of the building, Chase \nstarts singing about a \"Liverpool ship with a Liverpool crew\" (p. 101).\n\nIt seems like Cassie attracts people into her life with mysterious \nsecrets faster than the heroine of \"The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya\" \n(who does possess the power to warp reality). Does Cassie's latent \ntalent have something to do with this?\n\nGideon Chase -- wizard, loved her for years.\nBill Reis -- instantly prepared to pull elaborate scheme involving \nbracelets and plays, falls for her.\nIan Mersey -- Chase's friend/accomplice. Very strong. Possible time \ntraveler.\nVince Palma -- natural for playing the Volcano God, may have secret \nknowledge or powers.\nNorma -- possible ex-wife of Reis, but allows Cassie to think she means \nVince.\nDonny -- possible Cthulhu cultist, possible assassin.\nMargaret -- time-traveler, temporal clone, werewolf (but this one is no \ncoincidence)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<007301c97f74$fccb8520$f1d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-26T05:14:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<4976FED5.6080508@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI think you're right that Vince was just an actor. But symbolically he\nwas a representative of Reis in the play. Here are some things I deduce\nabout the play:\n\n1) The Volcano God was a dangerous villain in the play -- \"I only hope I\nnever meet Vince\" (249).\n\n2) \"Remember the show? The banquet you made for me? The way you danced\nwith Gil and me?\" (285). It seems he was wooing Mariah in a love\ntriangle with Mr. Sharpy. He offered her a banquet. This is a very close\nmatch to the Cassie/Gideon/Wally triangle, including dining out. The\ndance might have been a dream sequence, like the Laurey/Curly/Judd dance\nin \"Oklahoma.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "7) As a musical, the play would normally have a happy ending of some\nsort. But there could be a twist. One would expect Mariah to end up with\nthe sailor, but Reis named him \"Mr. Sharpy\" (a sharper, a confidence\ntrickster). He was the parallel to Chase. Since the play was intended to\nsend a message to Chase, Mariah probably ended up with the Volcano God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The scene where Cassie is sitting in the back of Wally's car and he shows\nher a vid image of her in the play may foreshadow the dance in the beach\nscene near the end of the book. But I can't quite make sense of it and the\nquoted lines from the song just makes it more confusing. (145) (The vid was\ntaken before Gid/Gil joined the cast.)\n\nRight after the song quotes:\n\"She clasped hands with her soul, and the two began to dance.\n\"Her images vanished.\" [To be replaced by Reis's face.]\n\nIn that scene from the play, which character was she dancing with, and is\nthe real-life person that character represents somehow Mariah's (Cassie's)\n\"soul\" mate? We know the main male dancer was Sharpy, but she (or they) also\ndanced with the play's Volcano God. So is there a scene in the play where\nMariah dances with just the Volcano God?\n\nOr is there a scene where Mariah dances alone, and the audience is meant to\nassume she is dancing with an unseen Volcano God? That vid bit is confusing,\nbut I don't think that any vid was actually used in the play's presentation,\nsuch that Mariah is seen on the stage dancing with a hologram of herself.\n\nAlso, when Cassie asked the island Vince if he remembered the play's banquet\nand all, he said no.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8CB4E114A54D3FF-14C0-5A2@FWM-D16.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "stoneox17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2009-01-26T21:07:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Margaret", "in_reply_to": "<007301c97f74$fccb8520$f1d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "7) As a musical, the play would normally have a happy ending of some\nsort. But there could be a twist. One would expect Mariah to end up \nwith\nthe sailor, but Reis named him \"Mr. Sharpy\" (a sharper, a confidence\ntrickster). He was the parallel to Chase. Since the play was \nintended to\nsend a message to Chase, Mariah probably ended up with the Volcano \nGod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The scene where Cassie is sitting in the back of Wally's car and he \nshows\nher a vid image of her in the play may foreshadow the dance in the \nbeach\nscene near the end of the book. But I can't quite make sense of it \nand the\nquoted lines from the song just makes it more confusing. (145) (The \nvid was\ntaken before Gid/Gil joined the cast.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right after the song quotes:\n\"She clasped hands with her soul, and the two began to dance.\n\"Her images vanished.\" [To be replaced by Reis's face.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In that scene from the play, which character was she dancing with, \nand is\nthe real-life person that character represents somehow Mariah's \n(Cassie's)\n\"soul\" mate? We know the main male dancer was Sharpy, but she (or \nthey) also\ndanced with the play's Volcano God. So is there a scene in the play \nwhere\nMariah dances with just the Volcano God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or is there a scene where Mariah dances alone, and the audience is \nmeant to\nassume she is dancing with an unseen Volcano God? That vid bit is \nconfusing,\nbut I don't think that any vid was actually used in the play's \npresentation,\nsuch that Mariah is seen on the stage dancing with a hologram of \nherself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, when Cassie asked the island Vince if he remembered the play's \nbanquet\nand all, he said no." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When it says \"Her images vanished,\" doesn't this mean she has to be \ndancing\nwith herself (probably a hologram, as Roy suggests). In real life, this \nhas to\ncorrespond to Cassie and Margaret. So this is a hint that Margaret is \nreally\nthe post-Woldercon Cassie. But does it mean anything symbolically for\nMargaret to be Cassie's soul?\n\nAny thoughts?\n\nPeter" } ] } ] }