Subject: (urth) AEG: Margaret

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 06:34:36 +0000

Speaking of Cassie as Margaret . . .

After Gideon aided Cassie to bring out her "star" power, it is implied that
she was then elevated, transformed "up", to a state higher than normal for
humans. The text even suggests that her heightened state was somewhat
angelic, though not, I believe, angelic in the usual religious sense. Cassie
was certainly no angel.

So if Margaret is really an over-the-hill Cassie who wants to give her
younger self a second chance at a happier life, who went to Woldercan
seeking something she apparently didn't find, what did she accomplish there?
If, as Dave Tallman has suggested, Margaret is now a shape-changer, whether
or not an actual werewolf, when and where did she acquire that ability, and
was it her choice?

I mean, only humans can transform themselves; Wolders can't do it, and Gid
said he (personally) couldn't do it. (99-100) So it doesn't seem likely that
Cassie learned how to transform on Woldercan.

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:37:18 +0000

> Cassie learned how to transform on Woldercan.
There's another place where Cassie could have begun to learn this. Chase 
said that werewolves "want the wild and a liberation from human 
morality" (207). When the Volcano God danced with her, "It freed 
something that had been bound before; after it she danced as he did..." 
(286). The Volcano God was something of a shape-changer himself; he 
chose to appear to her as Vince. This may have been the start of her own 
ability.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:06:29 +0000

> angelic, though not, I believe, angelic in the usual religious sense.
Cassie

That's not right. What Gid did for Cassie to bring out her star quality was
to enhance what was already there. That is not the same thing as
shape-shifting as defined by Gid. (99-100) Cassie still looked like Cassie,
only better and more charming. To shape-shift is to morph into another
physical form that is different from the original.

It is true that Cassie is no angel;there are none in the story. The only
person in the story to be called an angel is Wally Rosenquist, and that
usage by India is a theater term for a financial backer with deep pockets.
Still, one has to account for Gid's warning to Cassie about how hard it is
for humans to transform up and how easy it is for shape-shifters to
transform down. There should be someone in the story who has been
transformed up (probably with "expert assistance").

Gid may be talking to Cassie in oblique terms about Margaret-as-werewolf, if
he believes that she is one, but even then, he cannot mean Margaret as an
example of a human who has transformed up. As Gid explains it, "It is so
easy to go down that werewolves have trouble maintaining their human forms
at times." (100) That statement suggests that the animal state is the normal
state for a werewolf, the state that they will revert to when they lose
control. In the only example we see in the book, the large wolf that
accosted Scott was all animal, not some hairy-man form like we see in movies
that looks neither quite like a man nor a wolf.

Cassie asked about humans who have transformed up, "Do they become angels?
Or--or . . ." Whatever she meant by "or", who in the story has been
transformed up?

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 00:09:17 +0000

> physical form that is different from the original.
I have to disagree. Cassie was told "It is easy, terribly easy, for 
someone who has transformed up to slip back down; and it wouldn't be 
right for me to die without having warned you" (p. 100). Why would 
Cassie need a warning about someone else slipping down? She was 
transformed up, and needs to know that she could lose it. You say that 
it cannot be transformation if she doesn't look different. I say at 
least her voice was different. Sharon asked her a test question about 
her mother's name in order to be sure it wasn't someone else tricking 
her over the phone (45).

What Chase calls a "higher form" for Cassie even appeared spontaneously 
at times in her performances before he did anything for her. She clearly 
didn't grow angel wings or something -- she manifested "an indescribable 
something that electrified me" (p. 207). He must use the words "form" 
and "transform" rather loosely and metaphorically.

Could a plainer woman with a more subdued voice be a lower form? I think 
so. Chase admits the possibility of a "man-man" (p. 100), at least in 
jest. The main differences are probably internal, manifested as a loss 
of human qualities. After years as Margaret she might have difficulty 
getting herself to look as good and be as good as Cassie (even gray Cassie).

In short, I see no reason not to accept Cassie as a person who 
transformed up, and Margaret as a person who transformed down. There is 
a parallel with morals and aspirations, which is also rendered in 
physical terms in the Wizard Knight. Don't they say the same thing about 
it being easier to go down than up when they talk about the universe levels?

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 02:08:12 +0000

Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:
> Cassie need a warning about someone else slipping down?

Because there may be others who have transformed that she should be careful
of--even if he only meant Margaret.

> She was
> least her voice was different.

That's not enough. It's not the radical transformation Gid spoke of, such as
human to animal form, as different as Carlos and the wolf that got Scott.

> at times in her performances before he did anything for her.

Right. He only enhanced what she already had.

[snip]
> transformed up, and Margaret as a person who transformed down.

I disagree for reasons stated previously. But even if you are right, that
doesn't satisfy the question Cassie asked about humans who have transformed
up, "Do they become angels? Or--or . . ." By your own account, the
transformation of Margaret to werewolf is down, not up. Angels or what? I'm
sure you will agree that a werebeast is not a step up on the moral and
aspirational level.

-Roy

---

From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 02:34:43 +0000

Roy wrote:
> transformation of Margaret to werewolf is down, not up. Angels or what?
>

"or gods."

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---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 02:55:56 +0000

> human to animal form, as different as Carlos and the wolf that got Scott.
We seem to be talking past each other, and I'm not sure how to resolve 
it. I believe Cassie's transformation up to star/goddess and Margaret's 
to possibly immoral shapechanger are sufficient. Since you do not, the 
burden of proof is on you to find better candidates.

Here are some we could look at:
1) Hanga -- a human who went down to shark level, or a shark that went up?
2) The Volcano God -- possibly a human who transformed up.
3) The assassin and the detective -- possibly transformed down

---

From: Tom Foster <tbfoster at bethere.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:12:28 +0000

> that looks neither quite like a man nor a wolf.

My impression from this scene was that the man leading the wolf on a 'ludicrously thin leash' (I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the book with me) was the human element of the werewolf, and that Cassie was seeing through the werewolf's 'charm', or whatever. Presumably the other diners just saw a man walk up to Scott, but Cassie can somehow see the true dual nature of the werewolf, perhaps because she has been 'raised up' herself.

If this is the case, then surely she'd also be able to identify other werewolfs, i.e. Margaret, if indeed she were one (heh, heh). 

I've only just finished the book, and have been enjoying going back through the past few months' postings on the book, which I had avoided reading up until now.

I also wanted to mention a quick snippet from a previous post:

**************On Wed Oct 29th, Nigel Price wrote:

?In the context of allegorical interpretations of AEG and the significance of gold in the story, Matthew Henry's use of the proverb is interesting. In his "Concise Commentary", he writes concerning the Parable of the Pearl of Great Price in Matthew 13.44-52:

>>A man may buy gold too dear, but not this
>>Pearl of great price. *********************

I thought that this was an interesting quote, given the alchemy theme in AEG; the philosopher’s stone is often referred to in medieval alchemical tracts as "the pearl of great price".

Tom

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:51:03 +0000

> If this is the case, then surely she'd also be able to identify other werewolfs, i.e. Margaret, if indeed she were one (heh, heh). 
No, Ebony said "A woman tried to pet it. Did you see that?" (p. 190). 
The petting woman must have seen a wolf or dog, and so did Ebony. Cassie 
didn't see anything different than the others.

The werewolf was smart enough to carry out Wally's orders by himself. He 
was to come in, tell Scott he was wolf food, and lead him out. The other 
man with the thin leash was window dressing. A huge wolf coming into a 
restaurant by itself would cause a panic. The leash would allow people 
to tell themselves "Oh, it's just a dog."

> I thought that this was an interesting quote, given the alchemy theme in AEG; the philosopher’s stone is often referred to in medieval alchemical tracts as "the pearl of great price".
And in the Matthew context, the Pearl is the Gospel.

---

From: Tom Foster <tbfoster at bethere.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:07:49 +0000

I wrote:
> My impression from this scene was that the man leading
> the wolf on a 'ludicrously thin leash' (I'm
> paraphrasing as I don't have the book with me) was the
> human element of the werewolf, and that Cassie was seeing
> through the werewolf's 'charm', or whatever.
> Presumably the other diners just saw a man walk up to Scott,
> but Cassie can somehow see the true dual nature of the
> werewolf, perhaps because she has been 'raised up'
> herself.
> >
> > If this is the case, then surely she'd also be
> able to identify other werewolfs, i.e. Margaret, if indeed
> she were one (heh, heh). 
> >   

> to tell themselves "Oh, it's just a dog."

That's what you get for relying on memory alone, I guess. You're quite right about the woman trying to pet it; I had forgotten that bit.  I guess I was thinking of the Short Sun books, and the way different characters manifest their real natures in their appearances at times. 

Has anyone commented on the various notes Cassie receives throughout the novel from Gid and Wally? They all seem gushingly, embarassingly OTT and somewhat out of character for the senders. Are they just supposed to signify her amazing magnetism? I must admit that I didn't find Cassie to be an especially sympathetic character.

Did it strike anyone else as slightly suspicious that Cassie insisted on going for a walk on the beach with Wallace, then making out half in the sea, after being asked by the Storm God's emissary to do just that? I know Wallace had explained that there were lots of beaches in the area, and the Storm God couldn't watch them all, but it still seems almost like tempting fate...

As others have commented, the way Cassie is transformed by Prof Chase seems very reminiscent of the Dr Talos/Jolenta thaumaturgy (love that word!) and the idea of going up/down a level seems very similar to 'The Wizard Knight', not to mention sea monsters and werewolves! Wolfe certainly has his recurring tropes.

As a great Lovecraft fan, I agree with an earlier post that AEG shouldn't be sold as a Lovecraftian novel - the few Lovecraftian elements seemed a bit tacked on, and the book wouldn't really suffer if the Storm God was just the plain old Storm God.

Apologies for rambling - I'm still thinking my way through it, and could do with re-reading it soon, I suspect. I wish I'd brought it to work with me today! 

Tom

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:38:49 +0000

> Has anyone commented on the various notes Cassie receives throughout the novel from Gid and Wally? They all seem gushingly, embarassingly OTT and somewhat out of character for the senders. Are they…
Chase's note (p. 216) doesn't seem OTT or OOC to me. Other than the 
first and last paragraphs, the rest gets down to the business of 
delivering her to Kololahi for Reis. The love parts seem barely sincere. 
If he "loved her for years" (presumably from watching her performances) 
why did he never make a move until she could be useful as bait in a scheme?

Wally's notes are a bit OTT, but he talks about love that way in person, 
too. "...I'll win. With a green goddess at my side" (125). That's about 
as flowery as his note on p. 175.

The note from Wally that feels completely wrong is the one on p. 254. 
"...Did you feel my kiss? I'm hungry for yours!" Pretty corny, and 
there's not one word about the danger she was in. It almost feels like 
it was written at a different time and delivered out-of-context -- is 
this another hint of time-travel for Reis?

> Did it strike anyone else as slightly suspicious that Cassie insisted on going for a walk on the beach with Wallace, then making out half in the sea, after being asked by the Storm God's emissary t…
They weren't in the Takanga group at the time, but on some other island 
Reis chose for the private conversation. He didn't even want to say the 
name out loud, in case they were bugged (268). Perhaps the Volcano God 
provided some protection as well.  By the way, I notice that everyone 
worries about minaturized bugs, but nobody seems to be afraid of GPS 
(for example, Gideon's actions on p. 21 make no sense if there could be 
GPS chips in the photos). Have all the GPS satellites been taken down?

> As others have commented, the way Cassie is transformed by Prof Chase seems very reminiscent of the Dr Talos/Jolenta thaumaturgy (love that word!) and the idea of going up/down a level seems very s…
Talos didn't care at all about Jolenta; he only wished to use her for 
Baldander's purposes. That seems to shed some light on Gideon's feeling 
for Cassie.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:53:42 +0000

> burden of proof is on you to find better candidates.

I should have said Al, not Carlos as the wolf.

You evidently believe that Cassie was elevated by Gid to the level of a
goddess. I have trouble seeing Cassie as a goddess in any meaningful sense
of the word, either by traditional or Lupine standards. The Old World
goddesses in, say, the Latro books, have supernatural powers that they
exercise to intervene in human lives and on the objective world. Cassie
demonstrates no such powers. She was powerless to prevent her lover's death
or to get herself off that island, for example. She became an object of
desire with the requisite mien of a Hollywood star, but that is as far as it
went. And her comportment was by no stretch angelic.

> 2) The Volcano God -- possibly a human who transformed up.

That is the possibility that I was getting at. I mentioned before how, at
times, in Cassie's mind, it almost seems as if she regards Bill and Wally as
two different people. Then consider the "angel or what" bit and India's
"angel", the only person so called in the book. How different is India's
angel, the man Cassie came to profess love for, from the man the president
said was the most "evil man in the world"?

I don't think Gid ever refers to Reis as Wally Rosenquist, and when Cassie
first spoke that name to him he reacted as if he had never heard the name.
Thereafter he remains noncommital about her usage. In the islands, Wally
sets Cassie up as the "green goddess", with himself as her consort and fit
companion for a "goddess".

*If* there is a moral component to transforming up, did bad Bill become the
somewhat benevolent Wally, who hoped to fight the aliens and make the world
a better place? If there is no moral component to transformation, might a
spirit or nature god be the "or what"?

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:07:44 +0000

> went. And her comportment was by no stretch angelic.
I do think so, because strange things are going on around her other than 
her new attractiveness. Addresses are shifting, etc. Her power seems not 
to be under conscious control, and it may be blocked (perhaps by Gid's 
post-hypnotic suggestions). Something gets unblocked when she dances 
with the Volcano God, but it's too late.

> >/ 2) The Volcano God -- possibly a human who transformed up.
> /
Ok, suppose Reis has transformed up. He would probably require expert 
assistance, and by your previous arguments he couldn't learn that on 
Woldercan. Is that a consulting service he got from Gid? It's doubtful 
that was the original deal, because Gid never refers to such a thing 
when brainstorming with Cassie when Reis is an enemy. It could be part 
of the second deal with Gid.

> spirit or nature god be the "or what"?
To have these aspects co-exist in time, we need time-travel for him, 
too. Call the old Reis Bill -- he's an evil, murderous, blackmailer. He 
came around backstage that night and possibly rubbed out Jimmy. Then he 
met Cassie and got charmed. He made arrangements with Chase to get 
raised to a higher level himself. The new and better man, Wally, came 
back in time after transformation to do a nicer job of wooing Cassie. 
His powers are less blocked than hers, so he can exist in some form 
after death. He chose to appear to Cassie as Vince Palma's Volcano God 
(maybe to spare her pain) and gave her a little help by starting a fire, 
etc.

That's not a bad theory (I'm not sure how much of it corresponds with 
yours), though it leaves lots of open questions.
1) Would Gid help a half-enemy to such a degree?
2) Why ask Cassie to "leave flowers"?
3) What does Cassie think is possible regarding Wally in the end? If she 
wants him to come back, why not go back to the island instead of out to 
Woldercan?
4) Is Wally an established alias? It seems to be known to the business 
community already, and Reis much less so. You'd think it would be the 
other way around.
5) In the book, which appearances are Bill and which are Wally?

Is this the sort of theory you have in mind?

---

From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:23:33 +0000

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009, Roy C. Lackey wrote:

> a better place?

My take on Bill/Wally is that he become a "superhero", specifically the 
_the Shadow_.  That character fights evil, but uses violent methods, and 
is distrusted by most of the authorities, although he does have links with 
a few police.

Having just returned my copy of AEG to the library, I can't point to the 
exact reference where Gideon? suggests that Reis is similar to Cassie in 
being elevated in some way.

David Duffy.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 05:44:13 +0000

> with the Volcano God, but it's too late.

I'm still not sold on the reality-warping bit, partly because no one, not
even Cassie, seems to notice the discrepancies you have mentioned.

> of the second deal with Gid.

Gid is the only known expert in the book, so he would almost have to be the
one who assisted any theoretical transformation up. Gid admits to not
telling the whole truth and told Cassie never to volunteer information when
he was instructing her how best to lie (94), so I'm sure he wasn't telling
her all his business.

> back in time after transformation to do a nicer job of wooing Cassie.

If it happened that way, there would be no need for him to go back in time.
Bill just becomes Wally. Time travel by hopper seems too iffy to exercise
fine control.

> 1) Would Gid help a half-enemy to such a degree?

Gid is playing everyone involved to one degree or another to suit his own
ends.

> 2) Why ask Cassie to "leave flowers"?

I don't know. Why did Pat Gomez do the same, particularly since it seems so
bizarre in the circumstances? But it seems to be why Cassie had just come
from Oakland before speaking to Klauser. Best I can tell, Pat somehow
assisted, or at least tried, to keep Cassie from dying the night of the
storm, when both Cassie and Reis were supposed to die. As indicated by Pat
saying to Cassie, "You will live.", contradicting the dead assassin. (280)
The two "leave flowers" bits must be related somehow.

> 5) In the book, which appearances are Bill and which are Wally?

I don't know. But when Reis and Cassie had their walk on that island, he is
referred to as Reis, she calls him Bill, then calls him Wally and asks him
if it is okay to call him Wally sometimes. (270) Odd.

> Is this the sort of theory you have in mind?

I don't know yet what I have in mind; I've hardly begun to connect all the
dots. It would help if I knew why the Volcano God chose to appear to Cassie
as Vince instead of Bill/Wally, and why *he* thought she might see him
again. How? Why would he think that? The fire she built was as much a ritual
fire as a rescue beacon.

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:01:16 +0000

Roy C. Lackey quoted and wrote:
> >/ To have these aspects co-exist in time, we need time-travel for him,
> />/ too. Call the old Reis Bill -- he's an evil, murderous, blackmailer. He
> />/ came around backstage that night and possibly rubbed out Jimmy. Then he
> />/ met Cassie and got charmed. He made arrangements with Chase to get
> />/ raised to a higher level himself. The new and better man, Wally, came
> />/ back in time after transformation to do a nicer job of wooing Cassie.
> /
In almost every variation of this I can think of, Cassie saw both the 
"before" and "after" version of Bill. But there is no mention of her 
seeing anything different about him. I really doubt he was transformed.

> >/ 2) Why ask Cassie to "leave flowers"?
> /
I was thinking along those lines, too. Pat Gomez was dead, a zombie, and 
she wanted someone to lay flowers on her grave, even though her body was 
not there. Likewise, Bill's body was not on the Volcano God's island, 
but the black coral image was a gravestone of sorts, associated with the 
place they first made love. Cassie honored both requests for flowers.

Did Pat help save Cassie, or just predict her escape? Some say the dead 
are outside of time, able to see the future. Or Pat might have helped by 
calling the bat-creatures. They called Death's Visitors.  Most of their 
appearances to Cassie are right after a violent death.

> >/ 5) In the book, which appearances are Bill and which are Wally?
> /
I never saw the distinction you made, with Bill and Wally as separate 
people in Cassie's mind. Wally is like a pet name she choses after she 
has come to love him. Cassie explains this on p. 288: "My husband's name 
wasn't Wally. Not really. It was Bill. I called him Wally a-- a lot. It 
was a little private joke we had."

> again. How? Why would he think that? The fire she built was as much a ritual
Vince is still an unknown in my mind. He's an established actor, having 
done TV or movie work (westerns, p. 65), voiceovers (Memorare), and the 
stage. His voice makes everything he says sound important (285). Was he 
transformed up? It's troublesome to explain how Vince ended up in a play 
close to Cassie before she became involved in Chase's plot. Is a time 
traveler setting things up?

How might Cassie see Wally again? If Cassie goes back in time as 
Margaret, she will see him again, not very happily. Or he could mean in 
the life to come.

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:05:03 +0000

> was a little private joke we had."

Otoh, that whole account of how she came to be stranded is a tissue of
half-truths and evasions, a fine example of Gid's lecture about how best to
mislead people.

Cassie was told contradictory versions of the gold bracelet's origins. There
is the green-dress business and Wally being/not being in the audience. In
the beach conversation, she called him a wizard (making gold, vanishing),
just after he had told her that a wizard (meaning Chase) could never be
trusted. (269-270)

She reminded him that he had once told her he (Reis) could be trusted and
his word was always good. He reacted as if he didn't remember saying that.
(270) He hadn't had that many conversations with her. How could he have
forgotten something like that, particularly when his original point in
saying it was to gain her trust? Three pages later, it comes out how he
deceived her (and Kanoa) about using depth charges on the Storm King.

> stage. His voice makes everything he says sound important (285). Was he

I don't think so. She told the Vince-figure that he wasn't really Vince and
that she had never liked Vince anyway. But she liked this entity, "whoever
you are." Yet earlier, when noting the correspondences between real-life
people in the islands with characters in the play, she told herself, "I only
hope I never meet Vince.", meaning, of course, the Volcano God. Too bad we
don't know how Wally's play ended; it might shed some light.

> It's troublesome to explain how Vince ended up in a play

I don't see any good reason to suppose that Vince is anything more than he
appears to be, an actor.

> Margaret, she will see him again, not very happily. Or he could mean in

I think W.R. was too alpha to be that passive, unless the life to come means
something other than what it means for most people. I have no idea
whatsoever what it means for a human to be in any sense a volcano god.

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:54:13 +0000

Roy C. Lackey quoted and wrote:
> >/ I never saw the distinction you made, with Bill and Wally as separate
> />/ people in Cassie's mind. Wally is like a pet name she choses after she
> />/ has come to love him. Cassie explains this on p. 288: "My husband's name
> />/ wasn't Wally. Not really. It was Bill. I called him Wally a-- a lot. It
> />/ was a little private joke we had."
> /
There are half-truths and evasions, but no outright inventions I can 
see. It' s interesting how she hesitates, though. Did she start to say 
something else, like, "I called him Wally as..."?

> just after he had told her that a wizard (meaning Chase) could never be
The contradictory versions of the gold bracelet show that Reis was 
lying, IMHO, not that there were two of him. During the stroll on the 
beach he finally admitted it was radioactive gold:
   Reis:"The gold made you think of that first bracelet...",
   Casssie: "...We've already talked a little about the gold. 
Radioactive gold."
   Reis: "We have."
Giving her the bracelet was a criminal assault; it was natural for him 
to lie during the presentation. He changed his story at Rusterman's 
(121) because he wanted to explain why he took the bracelet back without 
giving the real reason. He thought she might be flattered and mollified 
if he told her he made it especially for her.

The green/brown dress and the being/not being in the audience I do take 
as evidence of clones. My favorite theory right now is that Reis doubled 
back in time to see the play he missed that night, after he became 
attracted to Cassie.

> deceived her (and Kanoa) about using depth charges on the Storm King.
I took the "You said your word was always good?"..."Did I? I probably 
did." to be a sign that Cassie made such a generalization of what he 
said that he hardly recognized it. What he really said was: "...in 
business matters I can be trusted absolutely. I do not cheat. Most 
particularly, I do not cheat my partners." He didn't say he never lied 
in matters of love.

Reis was vehement that he told no actual lie to Kanoa (273), and I think 
he was technically but not morally correct. He said, "I will not attack 
the Storm King, or his city, with depth charges. Or attack them at all 
without telling you what I plan" (254). He put a concentration of gold 
around the city, leading to Navy attack; he chose to consider that a 
gypsy trick rather than an attack in itself.

> don't know how Wally's play ended; it might shed some light.
I think you're right that Vince was just an actor. But symbolically he 
was a representative of Reis in the play. Here are some things I deduce 
about the play:

1) The Volcano God was a dangerous villain in the play -- "I only hope I 
never meet Vince" (249).

2) "Remember the show? The banquet you made for me? The way you danced 
with Gil and me?" (285). It seems he was wooing Mariah in a love 
triangle with Mr. Sharpy. He offered her a banquet. This is a very close 
match to the Cassie/Gideon/Wally triangle, including dining out. The 
dance might have been a dream sequence, like the Laurey/Curly/Judd dance 
in "Oklahoma."

3) Vince had a speech about coconuts (107). This may relate to the 
banquet, but I suspect it was a double-entendre about Mariah's breasts.

4) Aunt Jane loved the Volcano God: "And how I love his boiling lava..." 
(138), suggesting she will betray Mariah in the play, and foreshadowing 
Norma's possible betrayal of Cassie. She has an unhappy role. since she 
is only supposed to smile once (131).

5) Like the gold bracelet, the play was designed for Cassie's 
destruction. I suggest there was a scene where she was thrown down a 
stage volcano; that would be a fine way to arrange an "accidental" death.

6) Cassie on Zelda trying to get her to sign up for the play: "She's 
sold me down the volcano..." (83).

7) As a musical, the play would normally have a happy ending of some 
sort. But there could be a twist. One would expect Mariah to end up with 
the sailor, but Reis named him "Mr. Sharpy" (a sharper, a confidence 
trickster). He was the parallel to Chase. Since the play was intended to 
send a message to Chase, Mariah probably ended up with the Volcano God.

> whatsoever what it means for a human to be in any sense a volcano god.
The island of Takanga Ha'i seems to have two mountains, one for the 
palace and one an active volcano. Probably the King's mountain was also 
a volcano, now inactive. That gaves Reis a strong association with the 
Volcano God. Perhaps he joined with the Volcano God's spirit after 
death. His appearance as Vince Palma rather than Wally suggests the 
being Cassie saw was not simply the ghost of Reis.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:12:46 +0000

> even Cassie, seems to notice the discrepancies you have mentioned.
Another possibility (one I don't like as well) is that Kingsport is a 
haunted, Lovecraftian location where this kind of location and time 
shifting happens all the time. In ''The Festival" a visitor to Kingsport 
is shifted back in time without realizing it. In "The Dream Quest of the 
Unknown Kadath," Randolph Carter sees Kingsport as it used to be. I 
don't have a problem with people not noticing the shifts, since memories 
are probably shifted correspondingly. In "Dark City" this sort of thing 
is the norm -- the city shifts and memories are edited by the 
controlling beings of the place.

Here are a few more location puzzles:
1) Cassie lives within walking distance of a Baskin Robbins, on the 
corner of 15th and Madison (23). This suggests a part of the city with a 
grid layout, with numbered streets running N/S and streets named for 
Presidents running E/W. Arbor Street doesn't fit the pattern.

2) The eastern part of the city is older, dating from colonial times 
(294). The city probably grew west from the harbor. The eastern part has 
places with cheaper rents (293).

3) Ian Mersey comments on the shooting: "Hear 'bout the bloke who got 
shot in Pine Crest Towers?" (87), seeming to assume they would know the 
place. Is it a famous location, or perhaps close by? Both Cassie's 
building and the Towers have doormen.

4) Who is Mersey, anyway? He talks with an old-fashioned English style. 
Chase knows him, enough to trust him to smuggle him out of the building 
(100-101). Is he a time-traveler from a "Liverpool ship"? How did he 
just happen to end up working in the building where Cassie lives?

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:54:30 +0000

> just happen to end up working in the building where Cassie lives?
One more thing about Ian Mersey: Liverpool is a major port on the Mersey 
River in England. Just after Ian smuggles him out of the building, Chase 
starts singing about a "Liverpool ship with a Liverpool crew" (p. 101).

It seems like Cassie attracts people into her life with mysterious 
secrets faster than the heroine of "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" 
(who does possess the power to warp reality). Does Cassie's latent 
talent have something to do with this?

Gideon Chase -- wizard, loved her for years.
Bill Reis -- instantly prepared to pull elaborate scheme involving 
bracelets and plays, falls for her.
Ian Mersey -- Chase's friend/accomplice. Very strong. Possible time 
traveler.
Vince Palma -- natural for playing the Volcano God, may have secret 
knowledge or powers.
Norma -- possible ex-wife of Reis, but allows Cassie to think she means 
Vince.
Donny -- possible Cthulhu cultist, possible assassin.
Margaret -- time-traveler, temporal clone, werewolf (but this one is no 
coincidence).

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 05:14:33 +0000

[snip]
> send a message to Chase, Mariah probably ended up with the Volcano God.

The scene where Cassie is sitting in the back of Wally's car and he shows
her a vid image of her in the play may foreshadow the dance in the beach
scene near the end of the book. But I can't quite make sense of it and the
quoted lines from the song just makes it more confusing. (145) (The vid was
taken before Gid/Gil joined the cast.)

Right after the song quotes:
"She clasped hands with her soul, and the two began to dance.
"Her images vanished." [To be replaced by Reis's face.]

In that scene from the play, which character was she dancing with, and is
the real-life person that character represents somehow Mariah's (Cassie's)
"soul" mate? We know the main male dancer was Sharpy, but she (or they) also
danced with the play's Volcano God. So is there a scene in the play where
Mariah dances with just the Volcano God?

Or is there a scene where Mariah dances alone, and the audience is meant to
assume she is dancing with an unseen Volcano God? That vid bit is confusing,
but I don't think that any vid was actually used in the play's presentation,
such that Mariah is seen on the stage dancing with a hologram of herself.

Also, when Cassie asked the island Vince if he remembered the play's banquet
and all, he said no.

-Roy

---

From: stoneox17 at aol.com <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:07:54 +0000

Roy wrote

> Also, when Cassie asked the island Vince if he remembered the play's 
banquet

When it says "Her images vanished," doesn't this mean she has to be 
dancing
with herself (probably a hologram, as Roy suggests). In real life, this 
has to
correspond to Cassie and Margaret. So this is a hint that Margaret is 
really
the post-Woldercon Cassie. But does it mean anything symbolically for
Margaret to be Cassie's soul?

Any thoughts?

Peter