{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5316", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5316, "subject": "3rd Cue's a Charm?", "messages": 14, "voices": 7, "first": "2009-01-16T21:32:57+00:00", "last": "2009-01-19T22:16:35+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<378325.72329.qm@web34408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Greg Jenkins", "address": "grsjenkins at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-16T21:32:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stupid text. Third try. . . \n\nFirst of all, hello to everyone. I've been lurking for years, reading all \nthe posts from the beginning. I'm now somewhere in 2004. At the rate I'm \nreading, I should meet you in the present sometime around the year 2010. . . \n.\n\nIn any case, I wanted to give my take on Wolfe's Cues from Island of Doctor \nDeath and Other Stories and Other Stories. I've read the few posts that have \ntouched upon this short short story, and although I feel some of the posts \nhave gotten close to the heart of the story (with the exception of Borski's \nscatological reading, which, although I usually enjoy his readings, I feel \nwas totally missing the boat -- you WERE joking, right Mr. Borski?), I feel \nlike no one has written about what I feel the story is \"really about\".\n\nSpoiler alert, although I doubt few here haven't read it already. Oh, and \nI'll be using the terms \"universe\" and \"cosmos\" interchangeably (gets \nredundant, otherwise).\n\nI think in general this is a story about Perception, sort of along the lines \nof Wolfe's obsessions with Memory and Identity. It's about how a person can \nsee virtually anything they want in objects or situations. The story is \nabout how one can choose what to perceive, and about the dangers in wishing \nto perceive things in ways other than the \"truth\", the way they \"really are\".\n\nSpecifically, the story is about a man who feels his life is passing him by \n(hence the oft repeated \"not so young man, really\", or nsymr, moniker), and \nwho hasn't yet been successful in his chosen career as a cartoonist. No one \nseems to see the humor in his cartoons, at least not to the depth at which he \nsees it. Or perhaps HE is the one who doesn't see the humor in things as \nothers perceive it.\n\nSo, he looks up into the nighttime sky and wishes that he could perceive only \nthose things in life that are humorous, or that he could perceive all things \nin life humorously. As he wishes this, he's looking into the cosmos, peering \nup at the vastness of space, filled with light and dark areas.\n\nAnd the cosmos responds, giving him this wish. Immediately, he perceives \nwhat he's looking at as a bowling ball. A dark, nearly black void, speckled \nwith lighter colors, and dark areas that become the holes in the ball. The \ndark areas or \"holes\", or at least one of them, we later learn is the \nCoalsack Nebula.\n\nAnd he is choosing to perceive the cosmos not only as a bowling ball, but a \ntalking bowling ball, one with a sense of humor. The cosmos, or universe, \nbegins explaining to him what's happening: the nsyr is looking into an \ninfinity of perceptual cues, and from that infinity he's filtering out \ncertain ones, and being left with only those that create humor. And so the \nimage of the universe has become an image of a bowling ball.\n\nWolfe goes to great lengths to explain this; he spends maybe half the story \ndescribing this process. Essentially, the man is being assaulted by an \ninfinite number of perceptual cues, and that even before his transformation \nhe filtered these cues into a coherent meaning. The cosmos says in \nexplanation, \"...you are incapable of reacting to or even noticing more than \na very small fraction of the total. By an unconscious process you heed these \n[cues] and ignore everything else.\" I believe Wolfe spends so much relative \nink on this because it's crucial to understand before you can understand the \nstory as a whole.\n\nSoon after, we get a supposed clue of the \"identity\" of the bowling ball. \nThe ball says it is from \"Deneb\". When spelled with a lower case d, we have \ndeneb. Although not strictly a palindrome, it's very close to being a word \nthat is its mirror image. This may be over-interpretation, but perhaps this \nis a tip of the hat to alpha and omega symbology, to the cyclic nature of the \nuniverse as it was understood at the time this story was written. In other \nwords, the cosmos is saying, hey, I'm just the ebb and flow that is the \nuniverse. Regardless, the cosmos quickly dismisses the subject, saying it \ndidn't matter. (There's something hidden in this bit of the story, but I \ncan't tease it out. The nsyr man says, \"I thought you said--\", at which \npoint the cosmos cuts him off. I'm not sure what could have been said at \nthis point, but I'll give my opinion in a moment.) \n\nAnd why doesn't it matter? Because the universe wants it to be known that \nit, the universe, is not what's important, that's why, or at least that it \ndoesn’t want that line of discourse to be explored. And so we begin to get a \npeek of a conflict in our perception. Is the universe an unthinking, \n\"objective\" object, or is this thing an actual sentient entity, with an \nagenda of its own?\n\nThen the conversation moves to the writer's desire to be a successful \ncartoonist, and the universe tries to explain that in point of fact, it (the \nuniverse itself) has no sense of humor and therefore can't really judge the \nnsymr's work, because the truth of the matter is that the universe has no \nvolition of itself. It's just \"there\" in a sort of neo-buddhist way. We \nsee this again later on when the man asks the cost that must be paid for \nfulfilling his wish; the cosmos responds with a casual attitude that it could \nbe nothing or it could be twenty five cents. In any case, it doesn't appear \nto matter to the universe. The question is moot.\n\nAt this point in the story, the reader begins to realize that Wolfe is \nplaying with even our perception of the story, moving the POV into and out of \nthe nsymr's point of perception, so that sometimes the story is written from \nhis point of view, and sometimes from a more omniscient one (seemingly):\n \"The not-so-young-man thrust a sketch in front of two of the bowling \nball's holes. As it happened, they were the wrong holes.\"\nThis is Wolfe gently poking fun at the reader, or maybe that's putting it too \nstrongly. Wolfe is poking fun \"with\" the reader, for here is a man, \nthrusting his work out to the night sky, saying \"Hey, look at this!\" Toward \nwhat would you thrust a sheet of paper in this case? Wolfe is jokingly \nsaying that the nsymr misses the \"correct\" holes because there is no such \nthing. \n\nSo now we come to the part where we're told the \"truth\", that the nsymr is \nperceiving the universe as a bowling ball:\n\n The cosmos says, \"You are sketching me?\"\n \"I am,\" the not-so-young-man said. \"I've\n just gotten this idea for a sports equipment\n series.\"\n \"If you think I'm funny,\" the bowling ball said,\n \"you ought to see the tennis racket.\"\n \"How did you know I thought you looked like a bowling\n ball? I've been noticing it all this time we've been\n talking. It's obtrusive, somehow.\"\n \"Only to cartoonists. Artists are likely to visualize\n us as dark spheres filled with stars.\"\n \"What about the holes?\"\n \"Have you ever heard of the Coalstack [sic] Nebula?\"\n\nOkay, so here we have it. The man is beginning to question how this is \nhappening, because he doesn't even realize that his wish is already coming \ntrue. And we begin to see the dark reality of what's happening, that his \nperception is becoming so limited that it's actually become noticeably \nobtrusive. The cosmos explains that only he sees it that way, and that \nartists are likely to view it as a sphere with stars. How many times have we \nseen artists depict the universe as a sphere, with sprinkles of light \nscattered about, some stars, some galaxies, and so on. And when the nsymr \nasks about the holes of the ball, how are they formed, the cosmos explains \nthat one at least is formed by a formation known as the Coalsack Nebula, \nwhich is a real formation, a dark \"hole\" formed in the sky from an area \nunusually less dense with stars. Pictures on the internet show it as a near \nvoid in a background scattered with stars. The misspelling is intentional, I \nthink, because Wolfe is starting to warp our storyview into that of the \nnsymr's. Instead of coalsack, we have coalstack, a rather bland pun with \nlittle value. But as we learn later, the process is gradual, and so the \nhumor becomes more pronounced and yet more bizarre.\n\nAnd here we see another glimpse in the rather malign side of what's \nhappening: the man brings up the cliqued story of someone who basically sells \nhis soul to the devil and worries about this possibility. Not to worry, the \nuniverse reassures, and then goes on to say that even the man's children will \ninherit this \"ability\". And then this extremely chilling remark: \"...from \nthat time forward we guarantee that where others see duty or ugliness or \npathos or even beauty, you will see only humor. Good-by.\"\n\nWhy is this chilling? Because at least two of the four fundamental \nperceptions are good: duty and beauty. But instead of seeing these, the \nnsymr will see only humor. I think Wolfe is a likely adherent to the \nChristian belief that \"bad\" exists in the world, in part, to act as a \ncontrast to the good, that without evil we have no frame of reference to \ndefine good. And so, to lose our ability to perceive even the bad, in this \ncase ugliness and pathos, is a bad thing to Wolfe, and to lose our ability to \nperceive duty and beauty is very bad, indeed.\n\nNow we come to the last part of the short story, and boy! what a compressed \nbit of writing. Wolfe warps our perception to make us suspect more that \nperhaps the entity to which the nsymr speaks is not quite as objective as we \nhad begun to think, and that maybe what is manipulating the man is truly a \nconscious, malignant \"being\". The young man leaves the presence of the \nbowling ball, and a second ball comes in. Whoa, how is this possible if \nthere's only one cosmos? Is Wolfe implying a metaverse or something? We \nread further. The entities perceive each other as fair blue words, \nsurrounded by clouds and \"rich with life\". A beautiful visual (primordial \nEarth), but is it the \"truth\"? At this point we have become unsure that the \ndescription is truly objective. Are we seeing the \"author's perception\" of \nthe situation, the bowling balls' unconscious perception, or are the bowling \nballs capable of creating perception as they please, even as they've \nmanipulated that of the nsymr?\n\nNote that the first bowling ball is described in the beginning of the second \nto last paragraph as a \"he\" originally. Let's look at that. In fact, let's \ndecompress this entire paragraph. In a nutshell, here's the \"action\" that \ntakes place in the second to last paragraph. Bowling Ball 1 (BB1) and the \nnsymr are together. The man leaves BB1. A second bowling ball, BB2, comes \nin. BB1 and BB2 look at each other and see fair worlds. The man pops back \nin and asks for a quarter. Another customer (let's call her NC for new \ncustomer) comes in. (The nsymr has now been associated as a customer \nhimself, and so customers are coming into some place where BB1 and BB2 are, \nand there is the implication that the customers are being served something \nfrom or by BB1 and BB2.) BB1 begins to think, and here we have Wolfe playing \nwith our perception again. Wolfe has BB1 think \"sexy\", _as the NC would \nlater phrase it herself_. So now we're being yanked into the POV of the NC, \nand what does she want? The NC wants to feel sexy.\n\nAnd the NC thinks of BB1 as female. She does so because the NC is herself a \nfemale, and so she is more likely to view a sympathetic BB1 as female. \nThat’s suddenly how Wolfe describes BB1, saying \"after an inventory of her \nmind\". Her in this case is BB1. So we have, in the space of one paragraph, \nBB1 morphing from nsymr’s BB1 perception as male, to NC's BB1 perception as \nfemale.\n\nAnd finally BB2 says the line about bedding pardon. Again, we see this line \nfrom the NC's point of view, but also from the nsymr, because not only is the \nline \"sexy\", it's also a terrible pun. And speaking of puns, we've come to \nfully realize the nature of the nsymr's wish and its fulfillment. In classic \ndemon style, we realize the wish has been fulfilled, but it's only the \n\"letter of the wish\" that's fulfilled. For we see that the man will see \neverything humorously, but in a shallow form. Puns are considered one of the \nlowest forms of humor by many, and throughout the story it's clear that's \nwhat the man is seeing. Hence the pun earlier between \"goblin\" and \n\"gobbling\". \n\nThe story finishes with an ironically scary line: \"And, still grinning, the \nnot-so-young-man withdrew.\" At this point we realize that he's grinning a \nhideous grin, a grin that's involuntary, an almost Lovcraftian grin of \npredestination and lack of free will.\n\nSo, that's about it. I'm still a little confused about the actual identity \nof the bowling balls. I'm thinking other members more versed in mythology \ncould tease it out. Are there any demons or spirits or such that make \nthemselves perceived as images of the universe, or alternately as the \nprimordial Earth? I'm guessing there's something to Wolfe's image of the \nbowling balls seeing themselves as such. Also, there's the bit about the \nbowling ball sitting on a chair of \"massy gold and conform[ing] to an alien \npattern of beauty and utility.\" I took this as sun imagery. A god sitting \nupon the sun as a throne, perhaps? The bit about alien-ness I interpreted as \none way to perceive the backdrop of the universe, that its pattern and \nfunction, whatever that may be, is unknown.\n\nWe see an evolution in our perception of just what, exactly, BB1 is \nthroughout the story. First, it's a bowling ball. Then, it's the universe. \nThen, when seen by another like it, it's a fair world. Finally, we know it \nas none of the above, but rather, some malignant \"thing\" for which we have no \nname. There is the bit about \"I beg your pardon\", said by both BB1 and BB2 \nat different points in the story. Is there something in classic literature \nwhere a Mephistopheles-type character says something of the sort?\n\nOne last thought is that this story warns the reader against going out into \nthe night and blindly wishing for something that isn't well thought out. It \nturned out that the joke is that the man will spend his life seeing only bad \njokes. And it was because he prayed to a nighttime sky, a false idol, which \nwas really a demon made manifest as such. \n\nSo, any comments on this? I dismissed this story on first reading, thinking \nit was one of Wolfe's throwaway jobs, but I'm currently re-reading \nTIODDAOSAOS and was struck by the sinister nature of this story which I \ncompletely missed the first time around.\n\nSorry for the rambling style. Not on my A game today, lol.\n\n-- Greg (until I decide to take an Urthian name)\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<497165C9.1060600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-17T04:59:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<378325.72329.qm@web34408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Greg, thanks for posting. I rarely agree with Borski, but on this one \nI think he found the right approach. This thing is loaded with \ndouble-entendres and near-puns, leading to a scatological interpretation.\n\n\"not so young man\" = \"old coot\" = cootie\n\"chair\" = \"throne\" = toilet\n\"dark spheres filled with stars\" = \"firmament\" = fundament\n\"coal sack\" = \"cul de sac\" = end\nDeneb = Arabic for \"tail\"\nhumor = \"butt of a joke\" = butt\n\nIn short, the story is about an STD passed by a bug on a toilet seat. \nWhen it withdraws, still grinning, it has just bitten its second victim, \nthe second bowling ball (bottom) to use the seat in a toilet queue." } ] }, { "message_id": "<497253F0.7080104@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-17T21:56:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<497165C9.1060600@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read Borski on this story, nor do I claim to understand it. But few of those examples are even puns or anything like puns. Chair = toilet, OK; Deneb = tail; OK. But the rest are simply not-so-clever misspellings or forced associations. \n\nThe game of football is no less scatological by this logic---all those tight ends, you know.\n\nWolfe doesn't require you to bring words to his stories. He provides all the words you need." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:59:53 -0700\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nSubject: Re: (urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <497165C9.1060600 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nHi Greg, thanks for posting. I rarely agree with Borski, but on this one \nI think he found the right approach. This thing is loaded with \ndouble-entendres and near-puns, leading to a scatological interpretation.\n\n\"not so young man\" = \"old coot\" = cootie\n\"chair\" = \"throne\" = toilet\n\"dark spheres filled with stars\" = \"firmament\" = fundament\n\"coal sack\" = \"cul de sac\" = end\nDeneb = Arabic for \"tail\"\nhumor = \"butt of a joke\" = butt\n\nIn short, the story is about an STD passed by a bug on a toilet seat. \nWhen it withdraws, still grinning, it has just bitten its second victim, \nthe second bowling ball (bottom) to use the seat in a toilet queue.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4972A2D7.6020505@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-18T03:32:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<497253F0.7080104@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nI haven't read Borski on this story, nor do I claim to understand it. But few of those examples are even puns or anything like puns. Chair = toilet, OK; Deneb = tail; OK. But the rest are simply not-so-clever misspellings or forced associations. \n\nThe game of football is no less scatological by this logic---all those tight ends, you know.\n\nWolfe doesn't require you to bring words to his stories. He provides all the words you need.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those were rough examples; I don't have my copy of the story on hand. \nI'll get it and try for a more detailed exegesis in a few days." } ] }, { "message_id": "<716789.48139.qm@web34405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Greg Jenkins", "address": "grsjenkins at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-18T08:34:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<4972A2D7.6020505@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Guys, come on. I mean, really. A two page scat joke by Wolfe?\nAfter everything the man has written, after all the forum's discussions\nabout his religious beliefs and how these pervade his stories, after\nconsidering his generally serious nature and how when he does display humor\nit is sometimes dry but almost always clean -- I really can't bring\nmyself to believe Wolfe would do such a thing. I can picture Wolfe \nrolling his eyes at that interpretation.\n\nBesides, those connections ARE extremely weak. If Wolfe meant for the \nreader to deduce \"coot\", why wouldn't he have simply called the protagonist\nan \"old man\"? Why force such a bent chain of reasoning? And the children\nbeing called \"cooties\"? And the incredible leap in believing the use\nof nested quotation marks around \"Earth\" signifies \"fundament\", which\nrequires a huge leap from \"firmament\" to \"fundament\"? Wouldn't\na more plausible reading be that the quotes are nested to indicate\nthe not-so-young-man understands already at that point in the story\nthat his concept of \"Earth\" is a mere construct of perceptions\nthat he has chosen? And to go from \"chair\" to \"throne\"...and then leap\nto \"toilet\"?\n\nCome on, guys! Is there anyone out there reading the story as I am?\nWhere is the honorable Mr. Lackey or Blattid when I need them?\n\nConsider the sex change of BB1 in the penultimate paragraph.\nWhat in the world does this have to do with a scatological reading? Why\nwould Wolfe bother with this detail if his intention was to tell a crap\njoke?\n\nAnd look, here are a few more bits to ponder:\n\n\n*The tennis racket that BB1 mentions is a common depiction of the\nspace-time continuum, a grid of \"space\" upon which rests a ball.\nThis graphical construct has been used countless times to try to aid\nunderstanding of the mechanism of gravity.\n\n*The man must know a smattering of astronomy, because he understands the\nCoalsack Nebula reference, the space-time reference, the infinite nature\nof the universe, the concept of infinity applied to space.\n\n*Story of train and rope-skipping girl. Who would simply\nstop and let a train pass if a kid were skipping rope beside the track?\nWouldn't a normal response be: \"I would get out of the car and ensure the\nchild's safety?\" But that's not how our nsymr answers; he says he'd\nsimply stop and let the train pass. \"Exactly,\" responds BB1. The\nresponse of a pleased demon.\n\n* * * Religious imagery * * *\n* Nsymr says, \"I'm going to have a hell of a good time,\" to which BB1\nresponds, \"You certainly are.\" Taken as a pun or read as ironic, the\nnsymr is saying he will be having a twisted, hellish version of a\ngood time. A nightmare, really.\n\n* The \"gift\" (curse) will be passed to the nsymr's children, but they will\nnot outshine him in his lifetime. What biblical figures fit this mold?\n\n* Odd wording by nsymr asking for a quarter: \"I wonder if you Denebians\ncould stake ME to twenty-five cents instead of the other way around?\" \nAn image of being staked (crucified) comes to mind. In response to this,\nBB1 begins to \"think sexy\". Perverted thoughts of pleasure at the idea of\ncrucifying nsymr?\n\n*\"BB2 saying he \"beds\" pardon. Perversion towards pardon for nsymr?\nInstead of allowing for his pardon, BB2 jokes that he will defile it?\n\n* BB2 saying they give no quarter. A pun on twenty-five cents, but also a\nstatement that their damnation has no mercy. To give quarter can mean the\nclemency of not killing a defeated enemy.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49730137.6050004@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2009-01-18T10:15:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<716789.48139.qm@web34405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Guys, come on. I mean, really. A two page scat joke by Wolfe?\nAfter everything the man has written, after all the forum's discussions\nabout his religious beliefs and how these pervade his stories, after\nconsidering his generally serious nature and how when he does display humor\nit is sometimes dry but almost always clean -- I really can't bring\nmyself to believe Wolfe would do such a thing. I can picture Wolfe \nrolling his eyes at that interpretation.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he does have a sense of humor, and a pretty strange one. I think \nit's a mistake we Wolfe interpreters make sometimes, to fail to use our \nsense of humor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Besides, those connections ARE extremely weak. And to go from \"chair\" to \"throne\"...and then leap\nto \"toilet\"?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Borski's key to many of these references is to look for words that sound \nlike \"cue\": coot, cootie, cutie, queue, etc. Toilets are often jokingly \ncalled thrones, so that's no extra leap at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consider the sex change of BB1 in the penultimate paragraph.\nWhat in the world does this have to do with a scatological reading? Why\nwould Wolfe bother with this detail if his intention was to tell a crap\njoke?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sex-change makes perfect sense as part of a toilet joke, and no \nsense otherwise. From what point-of-view are a male and female body \nidentical? The person attached to BB1 was female, but from the \nperspective of the cootie it didn't matter. The \"bed\" pun suggests the \ncooties will be spread further by sex. The \"quarter\" suggests the coins \nused to enter a pay toilet." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49733CAA.9030709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-18T14:28:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<49730137.6050004@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Better yet, do you have a link to the original essay?\n\nI should say, I have no doubt that that story is indeed an extended joke .. (and probably not a very good one!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:32:39 -0700\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nSubject: Re: (urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4972A2D7.6020505 at gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I haven't read Borski on this story, nor do I claim to understand it. But few of those examples are even puns or anything like puns. Chair = toilet, OK; Deneb = tail; OK. But the rest are simply not-so-clever misspellings or forced associations. \n\nThe game of football is no less scatological by this logic---all those tight ends, you know.\n\nWolfe doesn't require you to bring words to his stories. He provides all the words you need.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nThose were rough examples; I don't have my copy of the story on hand. \nI'll get it and try for a more detailed exegesis in a few days.\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370901181004j75f6bc54l3e5c85ccf2e96efe@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-18T18:04:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<716789.48139.qm@web34405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 12:34 AM, Greg Jenkins wrote:\nWhere is the honorable Mr. Lackey or Blattid when I need them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be dead honest, I have no memory of this story whatsoever. I'll have\nto reread it before I jump in, and I'm in the middle of something else pretty\ndense right now." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<201022.49046.qm@web34402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Greg Jenkins", "address": "grsjenkins at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-18T19:02:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370901181004j75f6bc54l3e5c85ccf2e96efe@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David wrote:\nBetter yet, do you have a link to the original essay?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David, try this:\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0015/0121.shtml\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1CC296B3-2621-491C-BA10-139C8864F5C8@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-01-18T23:29:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<716789.48139.qm@web34405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 18, 2009, at 3:34 AM, Greg Jenkins wrote:\nOdd wording by nsymr asking for a quarter: \"I wonder if you Denebians\ncould stake ME to twenty-five cents instead of the other way around?\"\nAn image of being staked (crucified) comes to mind. In response to \nthis,\nBB1 begins to \"think sexy\". Perverted thoughts of pleasure at the \nidea of\ncrucifying nsymr?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A second customer has entered the room. It's she, not BB1, who wants \nto 'think sexy.' BB1 has taken an inventory of her mind. There's no \nsex change in the BBs. The nsymr is the first customer.\n\nI bed your pardon mirrors or reverses the name deneb. Which I always \nthought, given the context of the word, could mean something like de \nnada.\n\nI see the story as obviously Faustian.\n\nMy question: What is the significance of the story starting in the \ntitle word? So that the body of the story begins with the question \nmark? Simply a foreshadowing of the many questions raised?\n\nSteven Bowen\nhttp://bowenfinearts.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003701c979f8$2e8fdc00$41cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-01-19T05:38:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<716789.48139.qm@web34405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Greg Jenkins wrote:\nCome on, guys! Is there anyone out there reading the story as I am?\nWhere is the honorable Mr. Lackey or Blattid when I need them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for your regard, but I will bravely relinquish a place at the\nfront to Dan'l while I observe the, uh, rear.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<955372.96863.qm@web34403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Greg Jenkins", "address": "grsjenkins at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-19T15:24:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<003701c979f8$2e8fdc00$41cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Steven wrote:\nA second customer has entered the room. It's she, not BB1, who wants\nto 'think sexy.' BB1 has taken an inventory of her mind. There's no\nsex change in the BBs. The nsymr is the first customer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a lot compressed into that sentence. Here it is...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another customer pushed past him as he spoke, and the first bowling ball,\nafter an inventory of her mind that required only a fraction of a second,\nbegan -- as the new customer would later phrase it herself -- to \"think\nsexy.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was reading it (incorrectly, I'm now convinced) as:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...after an inventory of BB1's mind that required..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But you're pointing out that it says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "NC pushed past nsymr as nsymr spoke, and BB1, after an inventory of NC's\nmind that required only a fraction of a second, began -- as NC would\nlater phrase it herself -- to \"think sexy.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, no sex change.\n\nBut wow, what a whopper of a compression job. In the space of one Wolfian sentence we learn: \n\n1) there are customers to BB1 (BB1 provides some \"service\")\n2) the service seems to be the granting of an ability (to customers) to limit or change perception of sensory cues\n3) BB1 also has the ability to inventory (read?) customers' minds\n4) such an inventory takes BB1 only a moment\n5) the NC has a desire to see objects and situations as \"sexy\"\n6) the NC will later be granted this ability (limitation)\n\nWhew. Good thing Wolfe let us off the hook with only those things in mind.\n\n\nAs for the title being encapsulated as such, I believe someone else\nrefuted Borski's original idea and pointed out that perhaps it was at\nleast partially a convenience or a literary trick. I think it also\nserves as a wakeup call and helps us realize that as readers we're\nunconsciously filtering sensory cues. Initially some people (at least I\ndid) will glance over the odd opening and dismiss it as a simple oddity,\nor suspect a typo. After re-reading the story, it becomes an example of\nhow we chose the cues we wanted to see and let the others go un-noticed.\n\n(BTW I really don't mean to be bashing Mr. Borski. I think he's great and\nown a copy of SOLAR LABYRINTH.)\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<81c420fa0901191024j33f19747l1cfff4b17004908@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Greg Bates", "address": "tedkennedyrolls at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-19T18:24:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<955372.96863.qm@web34403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I too have read Borski's interpretation and find it lacking. I really like\nthe idea that the nysm is being given his wish, but can only see humor via\nbad puns - especially considering all the cue-related puns in the story\n(waiting in a queue, etc).\n\nI would've sworn I read somewhere that this story was inspired by a\nconvention where Wolfe and another (female) sci-fi writer were on a Q/A\npanel. They ended up answering writing questions and dispensing advice to\nscores of young writers of dubious talent. Maybe that's where the customer's\nwishes come from? The nsym could be some sort of comedy writer, the second\ncustomer a failed romance novelist, etc. Can anyone back me up on this\nstory?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Greg Jenkins wrote:\nSteven wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A second customer has entered the room. It's she, not BB1, who wants\nto 'think sexy.' BB1 has taken an inventory of her mind. There's no\nsex change in the BBs. The nsymr is the first customer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a lot compressed into that sentence. Here it is...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another customer pushed past him as he spoke, and the first bowling ball,\nafter an inventory of her mind that required only a fraction of a second,\nbegan -- as the new customer would later phrase it herself -- to \"think\nsexy.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was reading it (incorrectly, I'm now convinced) as:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...after an inventory of BB1's mind that required..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But you're pointing out that it says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "NC pushed past nsymr as nsymr spoke, and BB1, after an inventory of NC's\nmind that required only a fraction of a second, began -- as NC would\nlater phrase it herself -- to \"think sexy.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, no sex change.\n\nBut wow, what a whopper of a compression job. In the space of one Wolfian\nsentence we learn:\n\n1) there are customers to BB1 (BB1 provides some \"service\")\n2) the service seems to be the granting of an ability (to customers) to\nlimit or change perception of sensory cues\n3) BB1 also has the ability to inventory (read?) customers' minds\n4) such an inventory takes BB1 only a moment\n5) the NC has a desire to see objects and situations as \"sexy\"\n6) the NC will later be granted this ability (limitation)\n\nWhew. Good thing Wolfe let us off the hook with only those things in mind.\n\n\nAs for the title being encapsulated as such, I believe someone else\nrefuted Borski's original idea and pointed out that perhaps it was at\nleast partially a convenience or a literary trick. I think it also\nserves as a wakeup call and helps us realize that as readers we're\nunconsciously filtering sensory cues. Initially some people (at least I\ndid) will glance over the odd opening and dismiss it as a simple oddity,\nor suspect a typo. After re-reading the story, it becomes an example of\nhow we chose the cues we wanted to see and let the others go un-noticed.\n\n(BTW I really don't mean to be bashing Mr. Borski. I think he's great and\nown a copy of SOLAR LABYRINTH.)\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4974FBC3.4060508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-19T22:16:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?", "in_reply_to": "<81c420fa0901191024j33f19747l1cfff4b17004908@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't. But I do notice that \"Q&A\" contains a \"cue.\"\n\nPuns are frequently off-color. Borski's interpretation does appear to explain much about the story. But so does yours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:24:38 -0500\nFrom: \"Greg Bates\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) 3rd Cue's a Charm?\nTo: grsjenkins at yahoo.com, \"The Urth Mailing List\"\n\t\nMessage-ID:\n\t<81c420fa0901191024j33f19747l1cfff4b17004908 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nI too have read Borski's interpretation and find it lacking. I really like\nthe idea that the nysm is being given his wish, but can only see humor via\nbad puns - especially considering all the cue-related puns in the story\n(waiting in a queue, etc).\n\nI would've sworn I read somewhere that this story was inspired by a\nconvention where Wolfe and another (female) sci-fi writer were on a Q/A\npanel. They ended up answering writing questions and dispensing advice to\nscores of young writers of dubious talent. Maybe that's where the customer's\nwishes come from? The nsym could be some sort of comedy writer, the second\ncustomer a failed romance novelist, etc. Can anyone back me up on this\nstory?" } ] } ] }