{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5320", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5320, "subject": "Ansible Interview", "messages": 93, "voices": 16, "first": "2009-01-21T21:50:02+00:00", "last": "2009-01-29T07:31:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4977988A.2030404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-21T21:50:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have been browsing the Ansible interview, and I notice what seems to \nbe a simple, incontrovertible error on Wolfe's part:\n\n8. /How is Silk able to see these valleys filled with shadows [in the \nskylands at night, at the opening of chapter 4, book 1] if the Whorl is \na cylinder with the long sun running approximately down the centre?/ -- \nThis one throws me completely. Where is the difficulty, unless all the \nvalleys run parallel to the Long Sun? Naturally they don't. [DRL: I see \na Wolfean trap here. The groundlings' references to the 'shade' of night \nstrongly suggest a literal revolving shade around the sun. But there are \nlater indications that night involves some sort of dark stuff sent in \npulses along the axis to mask a certain length of the Long Sun.]\n\nThing is, the Whorl is the interior surface of a cylinder. Therefore, \n\"up\" is always toward the center.\n\nSince the LS runs along the center from end to end, you can treat the \nissue of shadows with only 2 dimensions. It won't matter whether the \nvalleys run along the Sun or the other way. Only if they are tilted or \noverhanging will they cast shadows.\n\nAnyway, as Langford notes, there is a shade of some kind always blocking \none side of the Sun.\n\nSo we should not assume Wolfe to be perfect in his physics. ;)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901211421i3f895d8bh8aa86ebf17fd984d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T22:21:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<4977988A.2030404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, that befuddled me too. And the interviewers aside about pulses of\nDarkness traveling the length of the sun to create darkness seems\nunsupported to me. How would there be skylands lit up at night if there was\na pulse of darkness covering an entire section of the Whorl in darkness,\nunless he is only seeing the lights from the cities, which doesn't seem to\nbe the case from various descriptions (especially the above about shadows\nand what not).\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901211422y6c75b366yd7df7275a992f238@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T22:22:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<273409710901211421i3f895d8bh8aa86ebf17fd984d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although, now that I think of it, the turning of the shade around the sun\nmight, at certain times be aligned just enough to cast shadows over some\nareas, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nYeah, that befuddled me too. And the interviewers aside about pulses of\nDarkness traveling the length of the sun to create darkness seems\nunsupported to me. How would there be skylands lit up at night if there was\na pulse of darkness covering an entire section of the Whorl in darkness,\nunless he is only seeing the lights from the cities, which doesn't seem to\nbe the case from various descriptions (especially the above about shadows\nand what not)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T22:31:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<273409710901211422y6c75b366yd7df7275a992f238@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "well.......\n\nthe sun turns. It may be a cylinder or a plane, but the point is that half of it is shaded.\nmeaning, it's photon vectors are not omnidirectional.\nAt some points the sun is a sliver. it widens & narrows through the day.\nand there IS a shade, that's why sunset is called Shadelow, I don't remember pulses of darkness and I just finished that book.\nSo as this light plane, or half cylinder rotates, it would have shadows.\n\nAnd then there is ambient reflected light, and we're talking about Shadows in the skylands, where, conceivably, there would only be reflected light off of neighboring lands that aren't yet in darkness. Then the fact that the Shade is not opaque, since you can see the skylands in the first place, so there would be additional reflected light. I think all of that adds up to enough an uneven distribution of light, and thus shadows.\n\n/my two cents.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 01:50 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Ansible Interview\n\nI have been browsing the Ansible interview, and I notice what seems to \nbe a simple, incontrovertible error on Wolfe's part:\n\n8. /How is Silk able to see these valleys filled with shadows [in the \nskylands at night, at the opening of chapter 4, book 1] if the Whorl is \na cylinder with the long sun running approximately down the centre?/ -- \nThis one throws me completely. Where is the difficulty, unless all the \nvalleys run parallel to the Long Sun? Naturally they don't. [DRL: I see \na Wolfean trap here. The groundlings' references to the 'shade' of night \nstrongly suggest a literal revolving shade around the sun. But there are \nlater indications that night involves some sort of dark stuff sent in \npulses along the axis to mask a certain length of the Long Sun.]\n\nThing is, the Whorl is the interior surface of a cylinder. Therefore, \n\"up\" is always toward the center.\n\nSince the LS runs along the center from end to end, you can treat the \nissue of shadows with only 2 dimensions. It won't matter whether the \nvalleys run along the Sun or the other way. Only if they are tilted or \noverhanging will they cast shadows.\n\nAnyway, as Langford notes, there is a shade of some kind always blocking \none side of the Sun.\n\nSo we should not assume Wolfe to be perfect in his physics. ;)\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090121-0, 01/21/2009\nTested on: 1/21/2009 4:50:03 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901211455k155232eexcfa54e6db7391ad@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T22:55:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz said:\n\n\"the fact that the Shade is not opaque, since you can see the skylands in\nthe first place, so there would be additional reflected light.\"\n\n\nShade not opaque? How do you figure that? Maybe I don't understand you\ncompletely. My understanding would be a big rotating strip that circles the\nbeam of the sun so that when one half of the sun is completely covered, the\nother half is in full light. That way, the skylands are like seeing the\nother half of the Whorl, above you, in full sunlight, but so far away, that\nit doesn't completely reflect the light back to you making it day time.\nIt's obvious that there is way more ambient light in the Whorl than in our\nnormal earth during Nightside, but why do you say the shade is not opaque?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901211455s2145a57asbcf145dbf220a45a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T22:55:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some people seem to have a very different idea of what the long sun\nand its shade are than I do. To my mind, the questioner is correct to\nask how there could be shadows in the skylands. There couldn't. And\nwhy should the shade need to be translucent in order to see skylands?\nAren't folks just looking *past* the shade? What good is a\ntranslucent shade? If we're talking about *diffuse* light casting\n*shadows*, then I'm completely lost. Go stand directly under a long,\ntubular fluorescent bulb, or better, a column of them. Try casting a\ncoherent shadow. It's real tough, huh? You're gonna need a whole\nshade." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nwell.......\n\nthe sun turns. It may be a cylinder or a plane, but the point is that half of it is shaded.\nmeaning, it's photon vectors are not omnidirectional.\nAt some points the sun is a sliver. it widens & narrows through the day.\nand there IS a shade, that's why sunset is called Shadelow, I don't remember pulses of darkness and I just finished that book.\nSo as this light plane, or half cylinder rotates, it would have shadows.\n\nAnd then there is ambient reflected light, and we're talking about Shadows in the skylands, where, conceivably, there would only be reflected light off of neighboring lands that aren't yet in darkness. Then the fact that the Shade is not opaque, since you can see the skylands in the first place, so there would be additional reflected light. I think all of that adds up to enough an uneven distribution of light, and thus shadows.\n\n/my two cents.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 01:50 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Ansible Interview\n\nI have been browsing the Ansible interview, and I notice what seems to\nbe a simple, incontrovertible error on Wolfe's part:\n\n8. /How is Silk able to see these valleys filled with shadows [in the\nskylands at night, at the opening of chapter 4, book 1] if the Whorl is\na cylinder with the long sun running approximately down the centre?/ --\nThis one throws me completely. Where is the difficulty, unless all the\nvalleys run parallel to the Long Sun? Naturally they don't. [DRL: I see\na Wolfean trap here. The groundlings' references to the 'shade' of night\nstrongly suggest a literal revolving shade around the sun. But there are\nlater indications that night involves some sort of dark stuff sent in\npulses along the axis to mask a certain length of the Long Sun.]\n\nThing is, the Whorl is the interior surface of a cylinder. Therefore,\n\"up\" is always toward the center.\n\nSince the LS runs along the center from end to end, you can treat the\nissue of shadows with only 2 dimensions. It won't matter whether the\nvalleys run along the Sun or the other way. Only if they are tilted or\noverhanging will they cast shadows.\n\nAnyway, as Langford notes, there is a shade of some kind always blocking\none side of the Sun.\n\nSo we should not assume Wolfe to be perfect in his physics. ;)\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090121-0, 01/21/2009\nTested on: 1/21/2009 4:50:03 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901211459u5a6787b4iec2460306c807a6e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T22:59:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901211455s2145a57asbcf145dbf220a45a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I can't see it as anything other than opaque. However, now picture a\nslowly revolving shade over that bulb. There are points where the shade\nisn't completely covering the bulb above you (for a short time). During\nthat point, there might be some shadows as the shade passes over the bulb\nabove your head.\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Matthew Groves \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "well.......\n\nthe sun turns. It may be a cylinder or a plane, but the point is that\nhalf of it is shaded.\nmeaning, it's photon vectors are not omnidirectional.\nAt some points the sun is a sliver. it widens & narrows through the day.\nand there IS a shade, that's why sunset is called Shadelow, I don't\nremember pulses of darkness and I just finished that book.\nSo as this light plane, or half cylinder rotates, it would have shadows.\n\nAnd then there is ambient reflected light, and we're talking about\nShadows in the skylands, where, conceivably, there would only be reflected\nlight off of neighboring lands that aren't yet in darkness. Then the fact\nthat the Shade is not opaque, since you can see the skylands in the first\nplace, so there would be additional reflected light. I think all of that\nadds up to enough an uneven distribution of light, and thus shadows.\n\n/my two cents.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 01:50 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Ansible Interview\n\nI have been browsing the Ansible interview, and I notice what seems to\nbe a simple, incontrovertible error on Wolfe's part:\n\n8. /How is Silk able to see these valleys filled with shadows [in the\nskylands at night, at the opening of chapter 4, book 1] if the Whorl is\na cylinder with the long sun running approximately down the centre?/ --\nThis one throws me completely. Where is the difficulty, unless all the\nvalleys run parallel to the Long Sun? Naturally they don't. [DRL: I see\na Wolfean trap here. The groundlings' references to the 'shade' of night\nstrongly suggest a literal revolving shade around the sun. But there are\nlater indications that night involves some sort of dark stuff sent in\npulses along the axis to mask a certain length of the Long Sun.]\n\nThing is, the Whorl is the interior surface of a cylinder. Therefore,\n\"up\" is always toward the center.\n\nSince the LS runs along the center from end to end, you can treat the\nissue of shadows with only 2 dimensions. It won't matter whether the\nvalleys run along the Sun or the other way. Only if they are tilted or\noverhanging will they cast shadows.\n\nAnyway, as Langford notes, there is a shade of some kind always blocking\none side of the Sun.\n\nSo we should not assume Wolfe to be perfect in his physics. ;)\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090121-0, 01/21/2009\nTested on: 1/21/2009 4:50:03 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2135992857-1232580085-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1659222138-@bxe264.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-01-21T23:21:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If someone asks \"Penny for your thoughts\" and you put in your 2 cents worth....\nWho gets the extra penny???\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \n\nDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:31:59 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ansible Interview\n\n\nwell.......\n\nthe sun turns. It may be a cylinder or a plane, but the point is that half of it is shaded.\nmeaning, it's photon vectors are not omnidirectional.\nAt some points the sun is a sliver. it widens & narrows through the day.\nand there IS a shade, that's why sunset is called Shadelow, I don't remember pulses of darkness and I just finished that book.\nSo as this light plane, or half cylinder rotates, it would have shadows.\n\nAnd then there is ambient reflected light, and we're talking about Shadows in the skylands, where, conceivably, there would only be reflected light off of neighboring lands that aren't yet in darkness. Then the fact that the Shade is not opaque, since you can see the skylands in the first place, so there would be additional reflected light. I think all of that adds up to enough an uneven distribution of light, and thus shadows.\n\n/my two cents.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 01:50 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Ansible Interview\n\nI have been browsing the Ansible interview, and I notice what seems to \nbe a simple, incontrovertible error on Wolfe's part:\n\n8. /How is Silk able to see these valleys filled with shadows [in the \nskylands at night, at the opening of chapter 4, book 1] if the Whorl is \na cylinder with the long sun running approximately down the centre?/ -- \nThis one throws me completely. Where is the difficulty, unless all the \nvalleys run parallel to the Long Sun? Naturally they don't. [DRL: I see \na Wolfean trap here. The groundlings' references to the 'shade' of night \nstrongly suggest a literal revolving shade around the sun. But there are \nlater indications that night involves some sort of dark stuff sent in \npulses along the axis to mask a certain length of the Long Sun.]\n\nThing is, the Whorl is the interior surface of a cylinder. Therefore, \n\"up\" is always toward the center.\n\nSince the LS runs along the center from end to end, you can treat the \nissue of shadows with only 2 dimensions. It won't matter whether the \nvalleys run along the Sun or the other way. Only if they are tilted or \noverhanging will they cast shadows.\n\nAnyway, as Langford notes, there is a shade of some kind always blocking \none side of the Sun.\n\nSo we should not assume Wolfe to be perfect in his physics. ;)\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090121-0, 01/21/2009\nTested on: 1/21/2009 4:50:03 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-21T23:33:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<2135992857-1232580085-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1659222138-@bxe264.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 21, 2009, at 5:21 PM, hammstu at sbcglobal.net wrote:\nIf someone asks \"Penny for your thoughts\" and you put in your 2 \ncents worth....\nWho gets the extra penny???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sled?\n\nMaybe it's a coin-operated toilet.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T23:51:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "whoops.\nthat was stupid.\nI had two conflicting perceptions of the thing, and clarified in my mind as I wrote, but forgot to cut the translucent bit.\nIt would have to be opaque." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 02:55 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ansible Interview\n\nWitz said:\n\n\"the fact that the Shade is not opaque, since you can see the skylands in\nthe first place, so there would be additional reflected light.\"\n\n\nShade not opaque? How do you figure that? Maybe I don't understand you\ncompletely. My understanding would be a big rotating strip that circles the\nbeam of the sun so that when one half of the sun is completely covered, the\nother half is in full light. That way, the skylands are like seeing the\nother half of the Whorl, above you, in full sunlight, but so far away, that\nit doesn't completely reflect the light back to you making it day time.\nIt's obvious that there is way more ambient light in the Whorl than in our\nnormal earth during Nightside, but why do you say the shade is not opaque?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-21T23:54:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sitting under tubular flourescent bulbs (complete with shade unit) all day long, right now in fact. I guarantee there are shadows. they're sort of diffuse, but they are definitely shadows.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Matthew Groves [mailto:matthewalangroves at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 02:55 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ansible Interview\n\nSome people seem to have a very different idea of what the long sun\nand its shade are than I do. To my mind, the questioner is correct to\nask how there could be shadows in the skylands. There couldn't. And\nwhy should the shade need to be translucent in order to see skylands?\nAren't folks just looking *past* the shade? What good is a\ntranslucent shade? If we're talking about *diffuse* light casting\n*shadows*, then I'm completely lost. Go stand directly under a long,\ntubular fluorescent bulb, or better, a column of them. Try casting a\ncoherent shadow. It's real tough, huh? You're gonna need a whole\nshade.\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "well.......\n\nthe sun turns. It may be a cylinder or a plane, but the point is that half of it is shaded.\nmeaning, it's photon vectors are not omnidirectional.\nAt some points the sun is a sliver. it widens & narrows through the day.\nand there IS a shade, that's why sunset is called Shadelow, I don't remember pulses of darkness and I just finished that book.\nSo as this light plane, or half cylinder rotates, it would have shadows.\n\nAnd then there is ambient reflected light, and we're talking about Shadows in the skylands, where, conceivably, there would only be reflected light off of neighboring lands that aren't yet in darkness. Then the fact that the Shade is not opaque, since you can see the skylands in the first place, so there would be additional reflected light. I think all of that adds up to enough an uneven distribution of light, and thus shadows.\n\n/my two cents.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 01:50 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Ansible Interview\n\nI have been browsing the Ansible interview, and I notice what seems to\nbe a simple, incontrovertible error on Wolfe's part:\n\n8. /How is Silk able to see these valleys filled with shadows [in the\nskylands at night, at the opening of chapter 4, book 1] if the Whorl is\na cylinder with the long sun running approximately down the centre?/ --\nThis one throws me completely. Where is the difficulty, unless all the\nvalleys run parallel to the Long Sun? Naturally they don't. [DRL: I see\na Wolfean trap here. The groundlings' references to the 'shade' of night\nstrongly suggest a literal revolving shade around the sun. But there are\nlater indications that night involves some sort of dark stuff sent in\npulses along the axis to mask a certain length of the Long Sun.]\n\nThing is, the Whorl is the interior surface of a cylinder. Therefore,\n\"up\" is always toward the center.\n\nSince the LS runs along the center from end to end, you can treat the\nissue of shadows with only 2 dimensions. It won't matter whether the\nvalleys run along the Sun or the other way. Only if they are tilted or\noverhanging will they cast shadows.\n\nAnyway, as Langford notes, there is a shade of some kind always blocking\none side of the Sun.\n\nSo we should not assume Wolfe to be perfect in his physics. ;)\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090121-0, 01/21/2009\nTested on: 1/21/2009 4:50:03 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2518.68966.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T00:03:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All this talk reminds me: I never can remember if the Whorl itself is actually cylindrical or if it's more oblong. As I recall, one of the inhumi calls it a \"hollowed-out asteroid\" at one point, and that made me try to remember if there were any descriptions of its exterior apart from the view from Blue/Green. If it is in fact an asteroid, I would imagine it would be more oblong. But if the entire thing was artificial, a more pure cylinder might be appropriate. I've always imagined the interior as looking like a pure cylinder, but the asteroid comment made me rethink that. (I'll try to find the inhumi quote when I get home...)\n\nTo take this even further, if it's oblong, valley shadows might be more probable since the Long Sun wouldn't always be *directly* overhead, but at more of an angle. (Assuming, of course, that the interior curves along both axes...but I get the feeling that I'm starting to think too much.)\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901211620l1affd336q9ef9c83c08f9a794@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T00:20:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was confusing the issues. Point 1: In relation to the idea that the\nshade might be pulses of dark along the axis of the long sun: This\nwould be insufficient to cast the shadow that is night in the Whorl.\nThe shadow would diffuse. You need a whole shade.\n\nPoint 2: It's always noon under the long sun. On the inner surface of\nthe whorl you can create a shadow, but only directly beneath the\nopaque object, and hence shadows in the skylands would be invisible\nfrom the ground, hiding beneath the object casting them. You can see\nshadows in your office because the objects casting them are close to\nthe surface they're casting on, and you are close enough to get your\nline of sight at an angle to the direction of the light. Silk could\nsee the shadow of his hand on the ground beneath him, buy no skyland\nvalleys full of shadow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI'm sitting under tubular flourescent bulbs (complete with shade unit) all day long, right now in fact. I guarantee there are shadows. they're sort of diffuse, but they are definitely shadows.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Matthew Groves [mailto:matthewalangroves at gmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 02:55 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ansible Interview\n\nSome people seem to have a very different idea of what the long sun\nand its shade are than I do. To my mind, the questioner is correct to\nask how there could be shadows in the skylands. There couldn't. And\nwhy should the shade need to be translucent in order to see skylands?\nAren't folks just looking *past* the shade? What good is a\ntranslucent shade? If we're talking about *diffuse* light casting\n*shadows*, then I'm completely lost. Go stand directly under a long,\ntubular fluorescent bulb, or better, a column of them. Try casting a\ncoherent shadow. It's real tough, huh? You're gonna need a whole\nshade.\n\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "well.......\n\nthe sun turns. It may be a cylinder or a plane, but the point is that half of it is shaded.\nmeaning, it's photon vectors are not omnidirectional.\nAt some points the sun is a sliver. it widens & narrows through the day.\nand there IS a shade, that's why sunset is called Shadelow, I don't remember pulses of darkness and I just finished that book.\nSo as this light plane, or half cylinder rotates, it would have shadows.\n\nAnd then there is ambient reflected light, and we're talking about Shadows in the skylands, where, conceivably, there would only be reflected light off of neighboring lands that aren't yet in darkness. Then the fact that the Shade is not opaque, since you can see the skylands in the first place, so there would be additional reflected light. I think all of that adds up to enough an uneven distribution of light, and thus shadows.\n\n/my two cents.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 01:50 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Ansible Interview\n\nI have been browsing the Ansible interview, and I notice what seems to\nbe a simple, incontrovertible error on Wolfe's part:\n\n8. /How is Silk able to see these valleys filled with shadows [in the\nskylands at night, at the opening of chapter 4, book 1] if the Whorl is\na cylinder with the long sun running approximately down the centre?/ --\nThis one throws me completely. Where is the difficulty, unless all the\nvalleys run parallel to the Long Sun? Naturally they don't. [DRL: I see\na Wolfean trap here. The groundlings' references to the 'shade' of night\nstrongly suggest a literal revolving shade around the sun. But there are\nlater indications that night involves some sort of dark stuff sent in\npulses along the axis to mask a certain length of the Long Sun.]\n\nThing is, the Whorl is the interior surface of a cylinder. Therefore,\n\"up\" is always toward the center.\n\nSince the LS runs along the center from end to end, you can treat the\nissue of shadows with only 2 dimensions. It won't matter whether the\nvalleys run along the Sun or the other way. Only if they are tilted or\noverhanging will they cast shadows.\n\nAnyway, as Langford notes, there is a shade of some kind always blocking\none side of the Sun.\n\nSo we should not assume Wolfe to be perfect in his physics. ;)\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090121-0, 01/21/2009\nTested on: 1/21/2009 4:50:03 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370901211627u35880596jc818536ae4bb4cc3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T00:27:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901211620l1affd336q9ef9c83c08f9a794@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Matthew Groves\n wrote:\nPoint 2: It's always noon under the long sun. On the inner surface of\nthe whorl you can create a shadow, but only directly beneath the\nopaque object, and hence shadows in the skylands would be invisible\nfrom the ground, hiding beneath the object casting them. You can see\nshadows in your office because the objects casting them are close to\nthe surface they're casting on, and you are close enough to get your\nline of sight at an angle to the direction of the light. Silk could\nsee the shadow of his hand on the ground beneath him, buy no skyland\nvalleys full of shadow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually...\n\nA person staring at \"the skylands\" will never be looking at the part\ndirectly opposite him/herself; the LS and/or the Shade will be in the\nway. So s/he will be looking at the ground at a greater or lesser\noblique angle, and the shadow of an object may be visible.\n\nNonetheless, a valley won't be full of shadow because, as you\nnote, in that valley the LS is directly overhead, or it's night." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901211637i62491c1br9459689411004710@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T00:37:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<2518.68966.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if it had been revealed previously, but a Neighbor\nconfirms that the Whorl is a \"hollowed-out asteroid,\" (In Green's\nJungles 381)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nAll this talk reminds me: I never can remember if the Whorl itself is actually cylindrical or if it's more oblong. As I recall, one of the inhumi calls it a \"hollowed-out asteroid\" at one point, and that made me try to remember if there were any descriptions of its exterior apart from the view from Blue/Green. If it is in fact an asteroid, I would imagine it would be more oblong. But if the entire thing was artificial, a more pure cylinder might be appropriate. I've always imagined the interior as looking like a pure cylinder, but the asteroid comment made me rethink that. (I'll try to find the inhumi quote when I get home...)\n\nTo take this even further, if it's oblong, valley shadows might be more probable since the Long Sun wouldn't always be *directly* overhead, but at more of an angle. (Assuming, of course, that the interior curves along both axes...but I get the feeling that I'm starting to think too much.)\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10901211941n2b6e76a2j80010e5353039177@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T03:41:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<2518.68966.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nTo take this even further, if it's oblong, valley shadows might be more probable since the Long Sun wouldn't always be *directly* overhead, but at more of an angle. (Assuming, of course, that the interior curves along both axes...but I get the feeling that I'm starting to think too much.)\n\nCraig" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it would look more or less cylindrical from the inside; the\nvarious bumps and protrusions on the outside of the asteroid might be\nhollowed out as well, but they might house parts of the Whorl's\n\"plumbing\" - the reservoirs mentioned in the text, clone storage, etc.\nYou could also use some irregularities in the hollowed Whorl to create\nvalleys and lakes I suppose.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497865B2.3060206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-22T12:25:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370901211627u35880596jc818536ae4bb4cc3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's true that ambient/reflected light would cast weak shadows---not so much \"shadows,\" really. The bottoms of valleys would catch less of that light, since much of it comes from the sides.\n\nOf course \n\n(1) this could not happen at all at \"noon.\" I haven't read the book recently: does the shade have zones, so that daytime would feature something other than noon all day? I recall that the shade snaps up in the morning, so we know it is at least relatively swift. And \n\n(2) the shade would prevent daylight from directly overhead from illuminating at night, so this would be a nighttime phenomenon.\n\nHowever\n\n(1) when day recedes or approaches, there surely would be light reflected from adjacent lands, so there would be an after- and a foreglow. How long, I don't know, but I bet you'd see RELATIVELY brighter mountains and darker valleys at some point in the process. Perhaps this is what Wolfe/the text referred to. At least, this is ARTISTICALLY acceptable/plausible.\n\n(2) It would have been so easy to introduce dawn and dusk, if Typhon's people had wanted to. Just create 2x 50% shades wider than 12 hours, and stagger/offset them. You'd have a transitional period: 1x 50%-dim hour on each side if you made each shade 1 hour wider. But it seems they didn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:31:59 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Ansible Interview" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497867E5.2010005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-22T12:34:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<497865B2.3060206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, those are distinct multiple light sources, right? Here, we'd have a smooth curve of an infinite number of light sources. But the light sources would be close---closer than the SUN---so perhaps there would in fact be a significant shadow effect. \n\nI don't pretend to know, I just think we know enough to bring the observation into the realm of the artistically possible. Which still doesn't explain Wolfe's flat rejection of it.\n\nI forgot the other possibility that you alluded to. If the LS is in fact not a narrow cylinder but 2 narrow, thin panels set back to back, then there would be some lessening of light output near dawn and dusk, at the very edges. This would lead to some dimming, but not to more shadows. Just stronger ones, perhaps---the overwhelming effect of permanent noon would be reduced. And dawn would still seem to snap up like a windowshade.\n\nI suppose it would be risky to make your sun a single huge fluorescent tube. Where would you get a replacement if it broke? ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:54:06 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Ansible Interview" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49788378.10908@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T14:32:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10901211941n2b6e76a2j80010e5353039177@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Keeley wrote:\nOn Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To take this even further, if it's oblong, valley shadows might be more probable since the Long Sun wouldn't always be *directly* overhead, but at more of an angle. (Assuming, of course, that the interior curves along both axes...but I get the feeling that I'm starting to think too much.)\n\nCraig" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it would look more or less cylindrical from the inside; the\nvarious bumps and protrusions on the outside of the asteroid might be\nhollowed out as well, but they might house parts of the Whorl's\n\"plumbing\" - the reservoirs mentioned in the text, clone storage, etc.\nYou could also use some irregularities in the hollowed Whorl to create\nvalleys and lakes I suppose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Spin gravity would require all the local upward directions to point \ninward to the same axis where the long sun is to be found, preventing \nshadows of any appreciable size to be cast across valleys during the \nunshaded day. However, during the shaded night, those valleys would be \nlit from off-vertical overhead angles by their skylands, with lighter \ncolors structures or ripened crops being brighter, and the closer (and \ntherefore least vertical) longitudes being brighter as well.\n\nThis would allow a valley at Longitude 0? to be lit by 40 acres of flax \nat Long 45? of the same latitude as if by a rising moon, with lots of \nshadows to conceal skullduggery, but still enough ambient light to \nfacilitate it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4978889D.2050305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-22T14:54:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<49788378.10908@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet ... the Whorl is \"made\" of \"shipstone,\" I thought. That's what \nwe are told early on in LS. Could the ambiguity of this term hide \n\"asteroid matter,\" as well as perhaps \"concrete made from asteroid \ndust\"? I suppose it could. And if so, that means the hollowing was done \nmuch as we would blast and bulldoze a mountaintop, or with plasma \nenergies. It also was probably done by robots, since we know Typhon had \nthem. In that case, there may be room for fundamental irregularity in \nthe base or foundation layer---so how would you ensure that all the \nmountains/hills point precisely \"up\"? By sighting on the LS, which \npresumably would have been installed ASAP? Or were the mountain ranges \nsimply the remains of blasting? In that case, they would be irregular \nfrom the get-go. It would be extra work to grind the floor smooth only \nto introduce nice, neat perpendicular mountains again. Is Larry Niven \navailable for a consult? ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: \nWed, 21 Jan 2009 18:37:37 -0600 From: Matthew Groves \n Subject: Re: (urth) Shape of the Whorl To: \nThe Urth Mailing List Message-ID: \n<39ed084f0901211637i62491c1br9459689411004710 at mail.gmail.com> \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I don't know if it had been \nrevealed previously, but a Neighbor confirms that the Whorl is a \n\"hollowed-out asteroid,\" (In Green's Jungles 381). On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "at 6:03 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nAll this talk reminds me: I never can remember if the Whorl itself is actually cylindrical or if it's more oblong. As I recall, one of the inhumi calls it a \"hollowed-out asteroid\" at one point, and that made me try to remember if there were any descriptions of its exterior apart from the view from Blue/Green. If it is in fact an asteroid, I would imagine it would be more oblong. But if the entire thing was artificial, a more pure cylinder might be appropriate. I've always imagined the interior as looking like a pure cylinder, but the asteroid comment made me rethink that. (I'll try to find the inhumi quote when I get home...)\n\nTo take this even further, if it's oblong, valley shadows might be more probable since the Long Sun wouldn't always be *directly* overhead, but at more of an angle. (Assuming, of course, that the interior curves along both axes...but I get the feeling that I'm starting to think too much.)\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<568218.38968.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-01-22T15:13:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<4978889D.2050305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's hard to get \"Rendevous with Rama\" out of my head as I try to picture the Whorl..\n\nHey, I'm getting ready to tackle the Short Sun series agan, just finished the Borski book...can someone please point me in the direction of an article I read here once...about corn-silk genes and the theory about the plants on green...well you know, don't want to spoil it for witz\n\nwhere do?I search for that article???\nthanks\n~S~\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Thu, 1/22/09, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Shape of the Whorl\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 6:54 AM\n\nAnd yet ... the Whorl is \"made\" of \"shipstone,\" I thought.\nThat's what we are told early on in LS. Could the ambiguity of this term\nhide \"asteroid matter,\" as well as perhaps \"concrete made from\nasteroid dust\"? I suppose it could. And if so, that means the hollowing was\ndone much as we would blast and bulldoze a mountaintop, or with plasma energies.\nIt also was probably done by robots, since we know Typhon had them. In that\ncase, there may be room for fundamental irregularity in the base or foundation\nlayer---so how would you ensure that all the mountains/hills point precisely\n\"up\"? By sighting on the LS, which presumably would have been\ninstalled ASAP? Or were the mountain ranges simply the remains of blasting? In\nthat case, they would be irregular from the get-go. It would be extra work to\ngrind the floor smooth only to introduce nice, neat perpendicular mountains\nagain. Is Larry Niven available for a consult? ------------------------------\nMessage: 4 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:37:37 -0600 From: Matthew Groves\n Subject: Re: (urth) Shape of the Whorl To:" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901220844k77840137w7b4bac702ca9a64d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T16:44:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<568218.38968.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that must be Marc Arimini's essay:\n\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm\n\nMuch to ponder there. No peeking, Witz.\n\nAlso, I have compiled as many translations of the names in Short Sun\nas I could find on the WolfeWiki site:\n\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=TheBookOfTheShortSun.Names" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nIt's hard to get \"Rendevous with Rama\" out of my head as I try to picture\nthe Whorl..\n\nHey, I'm getting ready to tackle the Short Sun series agan, just finished\nthe Borski book...can someone please point me in the direction of an article\nI read here once...about corn-silk genes and the theory about the plants on\ngreen...well you know, don't want to spoil it for witz\n\nwhere do I search for that article???\nthanks\n~S~\n\n Mobile (415) 786-3624\n Skype stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Thu, 1/22/09, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Shape of the Whorl\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 6:54 AM\n\nAnd yet ... the Whorl is \"made\" of \"shipstone,\" I thought.\nThat's what we are told early on in LS. Could the ambiguity of this term\nhide \"asteroid matter,\" as well as perhaps \"concrete made from\nasteroid dust\"? I suppose it could. And if so, that means the hollowing was\ndone much as we would blast and bulldoze a mountaintop, or with plasma\nenergies.\nIt also was probably done by robots, since we know Typhon had them. In that\ncase, there may be room for fundamental irregularity in the base or\nfoundation\nlayer---so how would you ensure that all the mountains/hills point precisely\n\"up\"? By sighting on the LS, which presumably would have been\ninstalled ASAP? Or were the mountain ranges simply the remains of blasting?\nIn\nthat case, they would be irregular from the get-go. It would be extra work\nto\ngrind the floor smooth only to introduce nice, neat perpendicular mountains\nagain. Is Larry Niven available for a consult?\n------------------------------\nMessage: 4 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:37:37 -0600 From: Matthew Groves\n Subject: Re: (urth) Shape of the Whorl To:\nThe Urth Mailing List Message-ID:\n<39ed084f0901211637i62491c1br9459689411004710 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I don't know if it had been\nrevealed previously, but a Neighbor confirms that the Whorl is a\n\"hollowed-out asteroid,\" (In Green's Jungles 381). On Wed, Jan 21,\n2009 at 6:03 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "All this talk reminds me: I never can remember if the Whorl itself is\nactually cylindrical or if it's more oblong. As I recall, one of the inhumi\ncalls it a \"hollowed-out asteroid\" at one point, and that made me try\nto remember if there were any descriptions of its exterior apart from the\nview\nfrom Blue/Green. If it is in fact an asteroid, I would imagine it would be\nmore\noblong. But if the entire thing was artificial, a more pure cylinder might\nbe\nappropriate. I've always imagined the interior as looking like a pure\ncylinder, but the asteroid comment made me rethink that. (I'll try to find\nthe inhumi quote when I get home...)\n\nTo take this even further, if it's oblong, valley shadows might\nbe more probable since the Long Sun wouldn't always be *directly* overhead,\nbut at more of an angle. (Assuming, of course, that the interior curves\nalong\nboth axes...but I get the feeling that I'm starting to think too much.)\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-22T17:31:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901220844k77840137w7b4bac702ca9a64d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Much to ponder there. No peeking, Witz." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I read here once...about corn-silk genes and the theory about the plants on\ngreen...well you know, don't want to spoil it for witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shucks. you guys are the best.\nthanks for watching out for me.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1825710047-1232651358-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-515981442-@bxe264.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-01-22T19:09:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fish Heads?\n------Original Message------\nFrom: Son of Witz\nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReplyTo: The Urth Mailing List" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sent: Jan 22, 2009 9:31 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Shape of the Whorl\n\nMuch to ponder there. No peeking, Witz." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I read here once...about corn-silk genes and the theory about the plants on\ngreen...well you know, don't want to spoil it for witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shucks. you guys are the best.\nthanks for watching out for me.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<872931.84345.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T21:05:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun Hiero-folk", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901220844k77840137w7b4bac702ca9a64d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for pointing to this! I can't believe I've never read it before -- I've looked at Wynn's site a number of times and always overlooked that link.\n\nBut the potential that Green is Urth starts to address an issue that's been bothering me: Where are the Hiero-folk (or Yesod in general) in Long/Short Sun? We had this huge cosmic conspiracy in New Sun that turned out to be the \"real\" story behind the surface narrative. But that \"real\" story apparently even disappears in the subtext of the sequel series.\n\nHowever...given that the whole point of Yesod/Hiero-folk is to further human evolution for their own purposes, perhaps we actually are seeing evolution happen in what occurs with the Neighbor/inhumi/human evolution interactions on Blue/Green. I haven't worked out the details yet, but this idea at least ties the series together more tightly than I've felt that they were in the past.\n\nI still wonder, however, if the Outsider is the same \"God\" that the Hiero-folk call the Increate. I know all the general signs would suggest that they are (one true creator god, etc.), but I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the Hiero's \"God\" wasn't the real deal.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Matthew Groves \nTo: hammstu at sbcglobal.net; The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:44:59 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Shape of the Whorl\n\nI think that must be Marc Arimini's essay:\n\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm\n\nMuch to ponder there. No peeking, Witz.\n\nAlso, I have compiled as many translations of the names in Short Sun\nas I could find on the WolfeWiki site:\n\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=TheBookOfTheShortSun.Names" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nIt's hard to get \"Rendevous with Rama\" out of my head as I try to picture\nthe Whorl..\n\nHey, I'm getting ready to tackle the Short Sun series agan, just finished\nthe Borski book...can someone please point me in the direction of an article\nI read here once...about corn-silk genes and the theory about the plants on\ngreen...well you know, don't want to spoil it for witz\n\nwhere do I search for that article???\nthanks\n~S~\n\n Mobile (415) 786-3624\n Skype stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Thu, 1/22/09, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Shape of the Whorl\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 6:54 AM\n\nAnd yet ... the Whorl is \"made\" of \"shipstone,\" I thought.\nThat's what we are told early on in LS. Could the ambiguity of this term\nhide \"asteroid matter,\" as well as perhaps \"concrete made from\nasteroid dust\"? I suppose it could. And if so, that means the hollowing was\ndone much as we would blast and bulldoze a mountaintop, or with plasma\nenergies.\nIt also was probably done by robots, since we know Typhon had them. In that\ncase, there may be room for fundamental irregularity in the base or\nfoundation\nlayer---so how would you ensure that all the mountains/hills point precisely\n\"up\"? By sighting on the LS, which presumably would have been\ninstalled ASAP? Or were the mountain ranges simply the remains of blasting?\nIn\nthat case, they would be irregular from the get-go. It would be extra work\nto\ngrind the floor smooth only to introduce nice, neat perpendicular mountains\nagain. Is Larry Niven available for a consult?\n------------------------------\nMessage: 4 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:37:37 -0600 From: Matthew Groves\n Subject: Re: (urth) Shape of the Whorl To:\nThe Urth Mailing List Message-ID:\n<39ed084f0901211637i62491c1br9459689411004710 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I don't know if it had been\nrevealed previously, but a Neighbor confirms that the Whorl is a\n\"hollowed-out asteroid,\" (In Green's Jungles 381). On Wed, Jan 21,\n2009 at 6:03 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "All this talk reminds me: I never can remember if the Whorl itself is\nactually cylindrical or if it's more oblong. As I recall, one of the inhumi\ncalls it a \"hollowed-out asteroid\" at one point, and that made me try\nto remember if there were any descriptions of its exterior apart from the\nview\nfrom Blue/Green. If it is in fact an asteroid, I would imagine it would be\nmore\noblong. But if the entire thing was artificial, a more pure cylinder might\nbe\nappropriate. I've always imagined the interior as looking like a pure\ncylinder, but the asteroid comment made me rethink that. (I'll try to find\nthe inhumi quote when I get home...)\n\nTo take this even further, if it's oblong, valley shadows might\nbe more probable since the Long Sun wouldn't always be *directly* overhead,\nbut at more of an angle. (Assuming, of course, that the interior curves\nalong\nboth axes...but I get the feeling that I'm starting to think too much.)\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090122-0, 01/22/2009\nTested on: 1/22/2009 9:54:22 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<624495.33501.qm@web180003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2009-01-23T20:40:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<2518.68966.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the Whorl has to be close to perfect cylinder. — If not, it would wobble as it spins.\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n\n--- On Wed, 1/21/09, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: (urth) Shape of the Whorl\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 7:03 PM\n\nAll this talk reminds me: I never can remember if the Whorl itself is actually\ncylindrical or if it's more oblong. As I recall, one of the inhumi calls it\na \"hollowed-out asteroid\" at one point, and that made me try to\nremember if there were any descriptions of its exterior apart from the view from\nBlue/Green. If it is in fact an asteroid, I would imagine it would be more\noblong. But if the entire thing was artificial, a more pure cylinder might be\nappropriate. I've always imagined the interior as looking like a pure\ncylinder, but the asteroid comment made me rethink that. (I'll try to find\nthe inhumi quote when I get home...)\n\nTo take this even further, if it's oblong, valley shadows might be more\nprobable since the Long Sun wouldn't always be *directly* overhead, but at\nmore of an angle. (Assuming, of course, that the interior curves along both\naxes...but I get the feeling that I'm starting to think too much.)\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-24T02:01:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<624495.33501.qm@web180003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the Whorl has to be close to perfect cylinder.\nIf not, it would wobble as it spins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only if the asteroid were of uniform density on all sides which is unlikely. \nThe engineering permutations to cause an asteroid of undefined dimensions \nand mass to spin uniformly are infinite.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<497AA7E3.6030708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-24T05:32:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shape of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI think the Whorl has to be close to perfect cylinder.\nIf not, it would wobble as it spins." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only if the asteroid were of uniform density on all sides which is \nunlikely. The engineering permutations to cause an asteroid of undefined \ndimensions and mass to spin uniformly are infinite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Relativity dictates any asymmetry will eventually lead to tumbling, so \nit needs to be pretty close to avoid instability over ages of travel." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-24T12:33:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<497867E5.2010005@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps there is some unmentioned mechanism to simulate moonlight on the\nWhorl... Just a thought.\n\nAaron" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7E62E592A5CA4E268CC4C9708AF1851E@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-24T21:46:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand the controversy here. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thing is, the Whorl is the interior surface of a cylinder. Therefore, \n\"up\" is always toward the center." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely not true. The premise here seems to be that all the land in the Whorl is \"flat\" (relative to the LS), and the mountains all point perpendicular to the LS. Very simplistic idea, and difficult to acheive for an environment that is a hollowed out asteroid. Anything built using a plumb would be perpendicular to the LS. All else would not unless it was coincidentally tilting parallel with the LS.\n\nWhen it is Nightside, the sky consists of the lighted lands and people overhead. \n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901241440v70ce97b4s73983a1fd80e6c54@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-24T22:40:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<7E62E592A5CA4E268CC4C9708AF1851E@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cerainly \"up\" is always toward the axis of the spin, regardless of\nwhether anything is tilted. Presumably the long sun is aligned along\nthat axis, no? But the point regarding shadows is that it's always\nnoon under the long sun, and so there wouldn't be any \"valleys filled\nwith shadow.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 3:46 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI don't understand the controversy here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thing is, the Whorl is the interior surface of a cylinder. Therefore,\n\"up\" is always toward the center." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely not true. The premise here seems to be that all the land in the\nWhorl is \"flat\" (relative to the LS), and the mountains all point\nperpendicular to the LS. Very simplistic idea, and difficult to acheive for\nan environment that is a hollowed out asteroid. Anything built using a plumb\nwould be perpendicular to the LS. All else would not unless it was\ncoincidentally tilting parallel with the LS.\n\nWhen it is Nightside, the sky consists of the lighted lands and people\noverhead.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T01:01:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901241440v70ce97b4s73983a1fd80e6c54@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the point regarding shadows is that it's always\nnoon under the long sun, and so there wouldn't be any \"valleys filled\nwith shadow.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless they are always filled with shadow, right?\nI'm just north of the 30th parallel. If it were noon on the summer solstice \nright now, I would cast a shadow.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<497BC6CE.9030909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T01:56:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nBut the point regarding shadows is that it's always\nnoon under the long sun, and so there wouldn't be any \"valleys filled\nwith shadow.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless they are always filled with shadow, right?\nI'm just north of the 30th parallel. If it were noon on the summer \nsolstice right now, I would cast a shadow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're outside of a planet, not inside a spinning asteroid." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T03:50:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<497BC6CE.9030909@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But the point regarding shadows is that it's always\nnoon under the long sun, and so there wouldn't be any \"valleys filled\nwith shadow.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wrote\nUnless they are always filled with shadow, right?\nI'm just north of the 30th parallel. If it were noon on the summer \nsolstice right now, I would cast a shadow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nYou're outside of a planet, not inside a spinning asteroid." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So? Same difference. If the ground slopes non-perpendicular to the central \nlight, object perpendicular to the ground will cast shadows. If a mountain \nis not perpendicular to the central light (remember that these mountains \nwere not shaped by rain and geology) it could constantly overshadow an \nadjacent valley.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<497BFE71.5040702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T05:53:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But the point regarding shadows is that it's always\nnoon under the long sun, and so there wouldn't be any \"valleys filled\nwith shadow.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I wrote\nUnless they are always filled with shadow, right?\nI'm just north of the 30th parallel. If it were noon on the summer \nsolstice right now, I would cast a shadow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nYou're outside of a planet, not inside a spinning asteroid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So? Same difference. If the ground slopes non-perpendicular to the \ncentral light, object perpendicular to the ground will cast shadows. If \na mountain is not perpendicular to the central light (remember that \nthese mountains were not shaped by rain and geology) it could constantly \novershadow an adjacent valley." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would require some Dali-esque topology, with mountains hovering \noverhead between the solar tube and the valley floor." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<85450FE639744252A140DAAB933C826E@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T14:44:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<497BFE71.5040702@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wrote:\nIf the ground slopes non-perpendicular to the central light, object \nperpendicular to the ground will cast shadows. If a mountain is not \nperpendicular to the central light (remember that these mountains were \nnot shaped by rain and geology) it could constantly overshadow an \nadjacent valley." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThat would require some Dali-esque topology, with mountains hovering \noverhead between the solar tube and the valley floor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the Whorl's topography *is* Dali-esque. And we know that it has \nmountains. That's how the Cargo is prevented from reaching the other \nportions of the ship.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<497CA13E.80400@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T17:28:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<85450FE639744252A140DAAB933C826E@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If the ground slopes non-perpendicular to the central light, object \nperpendicular to the ground will cast shadows. If a mountain is not \nperpendicular to the central light (remember that these mountains \nwere not shaped by rain and geology) it could constantly overshadow \nan adjacent valley." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That would require some Dali-esque topology, with mountains hovering \noverhead between the solar tube and the valley floor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the Whorl's topography *is* Dali-esque. And we know that it has \nmountains. That's how the Cargo is prevented from reaching the other \nportions of the ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What holds the mountains up?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0F7C52860DC74EDD9D1210178F8F52E6@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T18:06:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<497CA13E.80400@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThat would require some Dali-esque topology, with mountains hovering \noverhead between the solar tube and the valley floor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, the Whorl's topography *is* Dali-esque. And we know that it has \nmountains. That's how the Cargo is prevented from reaching the other \nportions of the ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What holds the mountains up?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[sigh] Look. There's mountains in the Whorl are just like any other \nmountains. But the axis of mountains are not perpendicular to the Long Sun.\n\nImagine a mountain and a deep valley on a flat surface with a single light \nsource directly overhead. No shadows. Now tip the base toward the valley. \nSuddenly the mountain does not point toward the light source anymore and the \nvalley falls into shadow.\n\nThis does not take a CAD program to imagine.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<39557.198.1232907552.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T18:19:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<0F7C52860DC74EDD9D1210178F8F52E6@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the axis of mountains are not perpendicular to the Long\nSun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How not? The pseudogravity gradient caused by the Whorl's rotation is\nperpendicular to the Long Sun at all points." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497CAF96.2000005@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T18:29:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<0F7C52860DC74EDD9D1210178F8F52E6@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That would require some Dali-esque topology, with mountains hovering \noverhead between the solar tube and the valley floor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, the Whorl's topography *is* Dali-esque. And we know that it has \nmountains. That's how the Cargo is prevented from reaching the other \nportions of the ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What holds the mountains up?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[sigh] Look. There's mountains in the Whorl are just like any other \nmountains. But the axis of mountains are not perpendicular to the Long Sun.\n\nImagine a mountain and a deep valley on a flat surface with a single \nlight source directly overhead. No shadows. Now tip the base toward the \nvalley. Suddenly the mountain does not point toward the light source \nanymore and the valley falls into shadow.\n\nThis does not take a CAD program to imagine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would require tipping the base at a greater than complimentary \nangle with the slope of the mountain, that is, a degree for every degree \nshort of a sheer, vertical cliff, and then more according to how much \nshadow you want. Unless you begin with a cartoonishly steep mountain, \nyour valley floor ends up tilted as much as a conventional mountain \nslope on earth, making it very unvalley-like. And you still have to \nanswer, what's holding this mountain up?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497CB081.7030904@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T18:33:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39557.198.1232907552.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nBut the axis of mountains are not perpendicular to the Long\nSun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How not? The pseudogravity gradient caused by the Whorl's rotation is\nperpendicular to the Long Sun at all points." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he means that, for example, a symmetrical, conical mountain need \nnot point straight up toward the solar tube." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6656.67.142.130.31.1232909028.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-01-25T18:43:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39557.198.1232907552.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are big hunks of things, not piles of gravel.\nThis seems to be what he is getting at. I don't have an opinion as to what\nis correct. What passage of the text talks about shadows?\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the axis of mountains are not perpendicular to the Long\nSun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How not? The pseudogravity gradient caused by the Whorl's rotation is\nperpendicular to the Long Sun at all points.\n\n--\nTim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T18:46:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39557.198.1232907552.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the axis of mountains are not perpendicular to the Long\nSun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How not? The pseudogravity gradient caused by the Whorl's rotation is\nperpendicular to the Long Sun at all points." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And why does that require that mountains which were not formed by natural \nforces (such as rain and wind) to be perpendicular to the Long Sun as well? \nWhy assume that when much of the Whorl's topography was built, the Whorl had \neven been started spinning?\n\nThe mountains point generally \"up\". Since there are valleys in shadow, \nclearly no care was expended to ensure that they pointed precisely up...at \nleast not in all cases. Large tracts of the Whorl --containing mountains, \nvalleys, lakes, and cities-- were evened out, but not made \"flat\" relative \nto the curvature of the Whorl's spin or to other tracts in the Whorl. It \nwould greatly increase the difficulty of the hollowing out process to make \nthat a priority in the construction, and it would provide zero value-add.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<497CB8BC.6000904@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T19:08:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<6656.67.142.130.31.1232909028.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThey are big hunks of things, not piles of gravel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why don't we see more hunks overhead then?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497CB998.3030004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T19:12:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But the axis of mountains are not perpendicular to the Long\nSun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How not? The pseudogravity gradient caused by the Whorl's rotation is\nperpendicular to the Long Sun at all points." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why does that require that mountains which were not formed by \nnatural forces (such as rain and wind) to be perpendicular to the Long \nSun as well? Why assume that when much of the Whorl's topography was \nbuilt, the Whorl had even been started spinning?\n\nThe mountains point generally \"up\". Since there are valleys in shadow, \nclearly no care was expended to ensure that they pointed precisely \nup...at least not in all cases. Large tracts of the Whorl --containing \nmountains, valleys, lakes, and cities-- were evened out, but not made \n\"flat\" relative to the curvature of the Whorl's spin or to other tracts \nin the Whorl. It would greatly increase the difficulty of the hollowing \nout process to make that a priority in the construction, and it would \nprovide zero value-add." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you privy to the particular \"hollowing-out\" process used? There are \nseveral, even now." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<47570.198.1232911727.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T19:28:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<497CB081.7030904@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he means that, for example, a symmetrical, conical mountain need\nnot point straight up toward the solar tube." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it must. If it doesn't point straight up, it can't be fully\nsymmetrical, as one side will be longer than the other." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<54372.198.1232912541.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T19:42:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It\nwould greatly increase the difficulty of the hollowing out process to make\nthat a priority in the construction, and it would provide zero value-add." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no evidence that it would be any harder, and it would add a lot of\nvalue: the landscape wouldn't turn to rubble when spin was applied.\nMountains made of rock can't exist at arbitrary angles to gravity.\n\nEven if you were using some building material stronger than rock, you'd\nprobably still prefer an Earth-like rather than Dali-esque landscape (or\nat least we'd be told if the latter were the case), and you wouldn't want\nwhole valleys that would never see daylight. (Anything that's ever in\nshadow will always be in shadow.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T20:00:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<47570.198.1232911727.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember that I am only trying to explain that Wolfe has not defied physics \nin having Silk see shadows in some valleys. I think I've got everyone to \nadmit that it is possible so long one abandon's preconceptions about the way \nthe Whorl looks.\n\nJeff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That would require tipping the base at a greater than complimentary\nangle with the slope of the mountain, that is, a degree for every degree\nshort of a sheer, vertical cliff, and then more according to how much\nshadow you want. Unless you begin with a cartoonishly steep mountain,\nyour valley floor ends up tilted as much as a conventional mountain\nslope on earth, making it very unvalley-like. And you still have to\nanswer, what's holding this mountain up?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I imagine mountains that look like the peaks of the Alps. Perhaps the Alps \nare cartoonishly steep, but the mountains approaching the ships deck are \nintended to make passage difficult. On the other hand, you could have a \nmountain that is positively sheer only on one side that over-looks a valley. \nThat would accomplish the same thing. Or a deep valley with steep sides as \nwell.\n\nJeff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you privy to the particular \"hollowing-out\" process used? There are\nseveral, even now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you? I would guess it did not involve a circular cutting drill like they \nuse to make subways. I presume they used lots of explosives and then \nsmoothed things out as necessay with bull-dozing equipment. Various tracts \nwould be assigned a project number and date for completion.\n\nTim:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it doesn't point straight up, it can't be fully\nsymmetrical, as one side will be longer than the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there something in the text that states the mountains are symetrical? On \nEarth, at the peaks of mountains it is not uncommon for onside to be sheer \nand the other side to slope.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497CCD81.2010202@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T20:37:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<47570.198.1232911727.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nI think he means that, for example, a symmetrical, conical mountain need\nnot point straight up toward the solar tube." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But it must. If it doesn't point straight up, it can't be fully\nsymmetrical, as one side will be longer than the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Make that an exposed section of a right circular cone, to be \nanalytically and geometrically precise." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497CD139.8040209@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T20:53:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI imagine mountains that look like the peaks of the Alps. Perhaps the \nAlps are cartoonishly steep, but the mountains approaching the ships \ndeck are intended to make passage difficult. On the other hand, you \ncould have a mountain that is positively sheer only on one side that \nover-looks a valley. That would accomplish the same thing. Or a deep \nvalley with steep sides as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you thinking that the valleys are past the end of the solar tube, so \nthat the tube is not over head but to one side only?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you privy to the particular \"hollowing-out\" process used? There are\nseveral, even now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes; in addition to being a lifelong buff of space research, I'm also \nengaged as a fact checker and peer reviewer for a series of books \nincluding realistic space habitat construction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there something in the text that states the mountains are symetrical? \nOn Earth, at the peaks of mountains it is not uncommon for onside to be \nsheer and the other side to slope." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "such peaks however typically make up a rather small portion of the mtn's \nbulk, and the overall slope of the mountain from tip to base has to be \novercome in order to cast a shadow onto a valley floor under vertical \nsunlight." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<65296.198.1232918734.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T21:25:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember that I am only trying to explain that Wolfe has not defied\nphysics\nin having Silk see shadows in some valleys. I think I've got everyone to\nadmit that it is possible so long one abandon's preconceptions about the\nway\nthe Whorl looks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not me..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, you could have a\nmountain that is positively sheer only on one side that over-looks a\nvalley.\nThat would accomplish the same thing. Or a deep valley with steep sides as\nwell." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither of these would put the valley into shadow. The sun is always\ndirectly overhead, and only an impossible, cartoonish overhang can block\nit from a significant portion of the surface." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there something in the text that states the mountains are symetrical?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt it. I was just responding to Jeff's remark." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497CE014.4040805@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T21:56:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<65296.198.1232918734.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nThe sun is always\ndirectly overhead, and only an impossible, cartoonish overhang can block\nit from a significant portion of the surface." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I should add that even in this unlikely scenario you wouldn't see \nthe shadow from Nightside, you'd see the topside of the overhang." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<34C5AA493EFC4184B75A5E17C2CC8C7A@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T22:01:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<497CD139.8040209@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you thinking that the valleys are past the end of the solar tube, so \nthat the tube is not over head but to one side only?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only that the valley's *plane* tilts, say, 15 degrees (perpendicular to the \nLS axis) into the *idealized* curve of the Whorl. Also that the valley be \nsomewhat deep and sides be somewhat sheer. It would not shade entire valley \nbut it would put shade into it. To overshadow and entire valley you would \nneed an adjacent mountain that looks like the peaks of the Alps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are you privy to the PARTICULAR \"hollowing-out\" process used? There are\nseveral, even now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[emphasis mine]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me:\nAre you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes; in addition to being a lifelong buff of space research, I'm also \nengaged as a fact checker and peer reviewer for a series of books \nincluding realistic space habitat construction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh. Okay. So that's why Typhon made you a consultant in constructing the \nWhorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff: Is there something in the text that states the mountains are \nsymetrical? On Earth, at the peaks of mountains it is not uncommon for \nonside to be sheer and the other side to slope." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "such peaks however typically make up a rather small portion of the mtn's \nbulk, and the overall slope of the mountain from tip to base has to be \novercome in order to cast a shadow onto a valley floor under vertical \nsunlight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One. more. time. These are not natural formations. They are essentially \n*statues*. \"Ship-rock\" is the asteroid material. That's why it was said that \nit would \"last until the end of the Whorl\".\n\nThey are not composite piles of rock pushed up by geological pressures. They \nwere blasted and carved into shape. Also, the gravitation pressure near \ntheir peaks is considerably less. Probably they will come down eventually, \nbut it's only been 300 years. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<497CE4BE.2000703@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T22:16:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<34C5AA493EFC4184B75A5E17C2CC8C7A@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nOnly that the valley's *plane* tilts, say, 15 degrees (perpendicular to \nthe LS axis) into the *idealized* curve of the Whorl. Also that the \nvalley be somewhat deep and sides be somewhat sheer. It would not shade \nentire valley but it would put shade into it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which shade would be invisible from almost anywhere in the Whorl, even \nif shiprock is strong enough to enable such cliffs." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T22:43:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<497CE014.4040805@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I should add that even in this unlikely scenario you wouldn't see\nthe shadow from Nightside, you'd see the topside of the overhang." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which shade would be invisible from almost anywhere in the Whorl, even if \nshiprock is strong enough to enable such cliffs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This premise is only true for areas directly on the other side of the Long \nSun. In the cases of areas just on the edge of Nightside (from Silk's \nperspective, deep in Nightside) the shaded areas would be perfectly visible.\n\nIf you use a compass and ruler you will see that everything I say is so.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<497CF02C.7040502@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T23:05:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I should add that even in this unlikely scenario you wouldn't see\nthe shadow from Nightside, you'd see the topside of the overhang." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\nWhich shade would be invisible from almost anywhere in the Whorl, even \nif shiprock is strong enough to enable such cliffs.\n\nThis premise is only true for areas directly on the other side of the \nLong Sun. In the cases of areas just on the edge of Nightside (from \nSilk's perspective, deep in Nightside) the shaded areas would be \nperfectly visible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're assuming that he's at the same \"latitude\", and that the overhang \nis pointed directly at him. And even in that case he won't be able to \nsee much of the latter scenario (a valley with two steep sides and no \noverhanging mountain).\n\nThe real problem, even if you're right, is that your theory involves \nWolfe making a much bigger aesthetic mistake than getting the geometry \nwrong.\n\n\"Hmmm... lessee... by default, nothing in the Whorl will cast a shadow. \nMaybe I could use that as a subtle part of the description, to enhance \nthe atmosphere of being in a artificial world different from the earth. \nNah... there's a really convoluted way in which it's theoretically \npossible for shadows to exist. I'll just write as if I'd forgotten the \nwhole thing, and let people construct the epicycles to rationalize it.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7E76C54DCEAD4C19AB93529AD03E0B9C@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T23:30:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<497CF02C.7040502@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The real problem, even if you're right, is that your theory involves\nWolfe making a much bigger aesthetic mistake than getting the geometry \nwrong.\n\n\"Hmmm... lessee... by default, nothing in the Whorl will cast a shadow. \nMaybe I could use that as a subtle part of the description, to enhance the \natmosphere of being in a artificial world different from the earth. Nah... \nthere's a really convoluted way in which it's theoretically possible for \nshadows to exist. I'll just write as if I'd forgotten the whole thing, and \nlet people construct the epicycles to rationalize it.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are assuming he thought it all strange that the Whorl would cast \nshadows. If he made a rough model of his Whorl, he would have seen shadows \nand just recorded what he saw.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<60016944C0A74B77B9BDFC5E98C39B25@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T23:34:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<7E76C54DCEAD4C19AB93529AD03E0B9C@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The real problem, even if you're right, is that your theory involves\nWolfe making a much bigger aesthetic mistake than getting the geometry \nwrong.\n\n\"Hmmm... lessee... by default, nothing in the Whorl will cast a shadow. \nMaybe I could use that as a subtle part of the description, to enhance \nthe atmosphere of being in a artificial world different from the earth. \nNah... there's a really convoluted way in which it's theoretically \npossible for shadows to exist. I'll just write as if I'd forgotten the \nwhole thing, and let people construct the epicycles to rationalize it.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are assuming he thought it all strange that the Whorl would cast \nshadows. If he made a rough model of his Whorl, he would have seen shadows \nand just recorded what he saw.\n\nJ" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "P.S. Trust me. There are far more important plot elements in The Book of the \nLong Sun that are far, far more subtly presented. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<497CFDE6.2090104@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-01-26T00:03:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<60016944C0A74B77B9BDFC5E98C39B25@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nYou are assuming he thought it all strange that the Whorl would cast \nshadows. If he made a rough model of his Whorl, he would have seen \nshadows and just recorded what he saw." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're assuming that Wolfe thought of the Whorl as a goofy cartoon \nlandscape, and didn't bother to mention it in the text. With Earth-style \n mountains and valleys, there would be no shadows, so yes, it would be \nstrange if it did, and no, he wouldn't have seen them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "P.S. Trust me. There are far more important plot elements in The Book of \nthe Long Sun that are far, far more subtly presented." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course. It's precisely because they're important that they *can* be \nsubtly presented. That way the reader has both motivation and reward for \nfiguring them out, and when he does, things snap into place instead of \nbecoming more mysterious and needlessly complex.\n\nWho knows, maybe the shadows are caused by demons that sit on Silk's \nretinas with the Whorl equivalent of a GPS unit and make complicated \nhand shadows based on where he's standing and the direction he's \nlooking. That has as much textual support as overhanging mountains and \ninverted-slope cliffs, i.e., none that I'm aware of. (I'm assuming that \nif there's direct textual evidence of such features you would have \nreminded me of it by now--it's been a while since I read the books.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497D063C.5060003@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-26T00:39:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I should add that even in this unlikely scenario you wouldn't see\nthe shadow from Nightside, you'd see the topside of the overhang." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\nWhich shade would be invisible from almost anywhere in the Whorl, even \nif shiprock is strong enough to enable such cliffs.\n\nThis premise is only true for areas directly on the other side of the \nLong Sun. In the cases of areas just on the edge of Nightside (from \nSilk's perspective, deep in Nightside) the shaded areas would be \nperfectly visible.\n\nIf you use a compass and ruler you will see that everything I say is so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why don't you use a compass and a rule to draw this situation, and \nupload a scan of your drawing so we can literally see what you mean?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497D09CE.2010203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-26T00:54:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<34C5AA493EFC4184B75A5E17C2CC8C7A@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nJeff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you thinking that the valleys are past the end of the solar tube, \nso that the tube is not over head but to one side only?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only that the valley's *plane* tilts, say, 15 degrees (perpendicular to \nthe LS axis) into the *idealized* curve of the Whorl. Also that the \nvalley be somewhat deep and sides be somewhat sheer. It would not shade \nentire valley but it would put shade into it. To overshadow and entire \nvalley you would need an adjacent mountain that looks like the peaks of \nthe Alps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Are you privy to the PARTICULAR \"hollowing-out\" process used? There are\nseveral, even now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[emphasis mine]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Me:\nAre you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes; in addition to being a lifelong buff of space research, I'm also \nengaged as a fact checker and peer reviewer for a series of books \nincluding realistic space habitat construction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh. Okay. So that's why Typhon made you a consultant in constructing the \nWhorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mean, I have reviewed the same body of work on spin-gravity space \nstations available to the author when he wrote the books. Typhon's bits \nof anti-gravity technology left over from wherever would allow some very \nuseful shortcuts in the process, but the fact that he had to make it a \nspin-gravity, STL habitat mean that certain constraints on the final \nconfiguration still apply." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One. more. time. These are not natural formations. They are essentially \n*statues*. \"Ship-rock\" is the asteroid material. That's why it was said \nthat it would \"last until the end of the Whorl\".\n\nThey are not composite piles of rock pushed up by geological pressures. \nThey were blasted and carved into shape. Also, the gravitation pressure \nnear their peaks is considerably less. Probably they will come down \neventually, but it's only been 300 years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Granted, but by writing about their peaks, you imply they at least \ngrossly resemble earthly mountains in overall shape, and there's only so \nmuch that can geometrically happen with that class of shapes. And that's \ntrue regardless of how the mountainous pile of material came to be." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-26T04:38:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<497CFDE6.2090104@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who knows, maybe the shadows are caused by demons that sit on Silk's \nretinas with the Whorl equivalent of a GPS unit and make complicated hand \nshadows based on where he's standing and the direction he's looking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why don't you use a compass and a rule to draw this situation, and upload a \nscan of your drawing so we can literally see what you mean?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mostly because I don't think it will matter. I've essentially re-stated \n(former engineer) Wolfe's answer to this question half-a-dozen ways and the \nonly response I'm getting is that \"it's impossible because \nspin-gravitational forces wouldn't allow it\" or \"mountain shapes wouldn't \nallow that\" -- even though no one here knows what materials made the \nmountains or engineering principles were employed to carve/build them or \nwhat the shape was of the mountains and valley's in question. It's crazy. I \ngot into this thread with the misguided assumption that I was dealing with \npeople who were willing to be persuaded.\n\nIf you truly don't think its possible for a body to cast a shadow in a \ncarved out hollow shape with a centrally located light source then you are \nnot bothering to use your brain. It can. And, in The Book of the Long Sun, \nSilk saw it happen. Deal with it.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901252206n4b735e9ax284ba02febad5be2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-26T06:06:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The text in question is:\n\"Beyond the black streak of the shade, the skylands had been as bright\nas Silk [...] had ever seen them[...]. Here were nameless mountains\nfilling inviolate valleys to the rim with their vast, black shadows.\"\n\nHere's how it would have to happen. Imagine a big bowl. Imagine a\nlong sun extending to the east and west above it. To fill that bowl\nwith shadow, you've got to tilt the whole thing so that it faces north\nor south. (Everything spills out of your bowl, but never mind that.)\nTilt it to the east or west and there's still long sunlight shining\ninto it from the further eastern or western segment of the long sun.\nSo tilt it to the north or south and you can get shadow. If the bowl\nis located north of \"up\" from Silk's perspective, and the bowl is\ntilted to face north, then Silk can see the shadow in the bowl.\nLikewise if the bowl is located south of \"up\" and the bowl is tilted\nto face south.\n\nThe trouble comes with imagining this bowl as a valley with vegetation\nand habitats and people living in it. Problems with gravity and lack\nof sunlight would prevent this, which is why these would truly be\n\"inviolate\" valleys." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 10:38 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nTim:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who knows, maybe the shadows are caused by demons that sit on Silk's\nretinas with the Whorl equivalent of a GPS unit and make complicated hand\nshadows based on where he's standing and the direction he's looking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why don't you use a compass and a rule to draw this situation, and upload\na scan of your drawing so we can literally see what you mean?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mostly because I don't think it will matter. I've essentially re-stated\n(former engineer) Wolfe's answer to this question half-a-dozen ways and the\nonly response I'm getting is that \"it's impossible because\nspin-gravitational forces wouldn't allow it\" or \"mountain shapes wouldn't\nallow that\" -- even though no one here knows what materials made the\nmountains or engineering principles were employed to carve/build them or\nwhat the shape was of the mountains and valley's in question. It's crazy. I\ngot into this thread with the misguided assumption that I was dealing with\npeople who were willing to be persuaded.\n\nIf you truly don't think its possible for a body to cast a shadow in a\ncarved out hollow shape with a centrally located light source then you are\nnot bothering to use your brain. It can. And, in The Book of the Long Sun,\nSilk saw it happen. Deal with it.\n\nJ\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497D97A1.3040608@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-26T10:59:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nTim:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who knows, maybe the shadows are caused by demons that sit on Silk's \nretinas with the Whorl equivalent of a GPS unit and make complicated \nhand shadows based on where he's standing and the direction he's looking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff\nWhy don't you use a compass and a rule to draw this situation, and \nupload a scan of your drawing so we can literally see what you mean?\n\nMostly because I don't think it will matter. I've essentially re-stated \n(former engineer) Wolfe's answer to this question half-a-dozen ways and \nthe only response I'm getting is that \"it's impossible because \nspin-gravitational forces wouldn't allow it\" or \"mountain shapes \nwouldn't allow that\" -- even though no one here knows what materials \nmade the mountains or engineering principles were employed to \ncarve/build them or what the shape was of the mountains and valley's in \nquestion. It's crazy. I got into this thread with the misguided \nassumption that I was dealing with people who were willing to be persuaded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm willing to be persuaded, but not by repeated assertion. If you can \nimagine a scenario where a valley inside a spinning, hollow asteroid can \nhave a line of sight to an observer elsewhere on the inner surface, but \nnot to the central axis, you ought to be able to construct a diagram of \nit, like one would in high school physics or geometry. It doesn't have \nto be fancy or artistic, just demonstrative. I am also willing to do \none, if you like." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497D9B92.5010708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-26T11:16:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901252206n4b735e9ax284ba02febad5be2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nThe text in question is:\n\"Beyond the black streak of the shade, the skylands had been as bright\nas Silk [...] had ever seen them[...]. Here were nameless mountains\nfilling inviolate valleys to the rim with their vast, black shadows.\"\n\nHere's how it would have to happen. Imagine a big bowl. Imagine a\nlong sun extending to the east and west above it. To fill that bowl\nwith shadow, you've got to tilt the whole thing so that it faces north\nor south. (Everything spills out of your bowl, but never mind that.)\nTilt it to the east or west and there's still long sunlight shining\ninto it from the further eastern or western segment of the long sun.\nSo tilt it to the north or south and you can get shadow. If the bowl\nis located north of \"up\" from Silk's perspective, and the bowl is\ntilted to face north, then Silk can see the shadow in the bowl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In this scenario, does \"to the rim\" mean the valleys are each filled to \ntheir respective rim, or does it refer to some larger container, like \nthe Whorl itself perhaps?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901260741k52c49b8csc93ef26cfed2dce9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-26T15:41:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<497D9B92.5010708@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, each valley -- each bowl would be filled with shadow. The\ntopography of the inner surface of the Whorl would have to be much\nmore eccentric than I had ever pictured it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 5:16 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nIn this scenario, does \"to the rim\" mean the valleys are each filled to\ntheir respective rim, or does it refer to some larger container, like the\nWhorl itself perhaps?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901270919g5b0e3156rb0990890a5723af7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-27T17:19:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901260741k52c49b8csc93ef26cfed2dce9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are one of you going to pony up with some drawings or are we going to have\nto arrange for a duel?\n\nMyself, I'd much rather see some drawings.\n\nI'm having a devil of a time seeing anything but High noon all over the\nWhorl.\n\nOn Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Matthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In this scenario, does \"to the rim\" mean the valleys are each filled to\ntheir respective rim, or does it refer to some larger container, like the\nWhorl itself perhaps?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901271025t6f23e05ar18525d34ce73ba8e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-27T18:25:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<273409710901270919g5b0e3156rb0990890a5723af7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can make a drawing, but I'm afraid I don't have the means to create\nand post a digital image. (I'm posting this email using some rocks\nand coke bottle I found.) If there's genuine interest, I'll be happy\nto post an image in a day or so. But someone will probably have to\ntell me how and where best to do that. (Seriously, I'm not good at\ncomputers.) Hang on, let me go draw something and then see if I can\ndescribe it...\n\nFirst, you have to give up the idea that the topography of the inner\nsurface of the whorl is all relatively flat in relation to the spin\nWhorl's spin gravity, with habitat and cities everywhere. Imagine\nthat it's as eccentrically craggy and pitted as the exterior of a\nsmall asteroid.\n\nImagine a roughly circular cross-section of the whorl, with the long\nsun as a point light source in the center. Put a little stick-figure\nSilk down at 6:00. Draw a cross-section of a bowl resting on with its\nbottom on the surface of the Whorl at, say, 1:00. Sunlight shines\ninto the valley at all times except shadelow. Now, draw another bowl\nat 2:00, but tilt the bowl counterclockwise until the rim begins to\neclipse the sun. Now you've got shadow in your bowl. If you draw an\narrow indicating Silk's line of sight, you should find that he can see\nthe shadow in the bowl.\n\nNow, if you can picture that, you're probably thinking, \"Well, that's\nfine for bowls, and maybe for the exterior surface some very\nfracked-up asteroid, but no such geological formation would stand up\nunder gravity. Pas did some stupid shit when he built the Whorl, but\nsurely he didn't build useless geographical features out of magical\nshiprock.\" And I have no answer for you on that point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nAre one of you going to pony up with some drawings or are we going to have\nto arrange for a duel?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901271104n68b812ean7d6b5944c37658e5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-27T19:04:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901271025t6f23e05ar18525d34ce73ba8e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lol! That last bit about what I was thinking is pretty much exactly what I\nwas thinking! When I picture that (and I was able to with your fine\ndescription) the thing that first popped into my head was \"no way would I\ncall something like that, if I saw it above me, a valley! I'd have to come\nup with some other frakked up word, because it wouldn't look like any valley\nI could imagine!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Matthew Groves <\nmatthewalangroves at gmail.com> wrote:\nI can make a drawing, but I'm afraid I don't have the means to create\nand post a digital image. (I'm posting this email using some rocks\nand coke bottle I found.) If there's genuine interest, I'll be happy\nto post an image in a day or so. But someone will probably have to\ntell me how and where best to do that. (Seriously, I'm not good at\ncomputers.) Hang on, let me go draw something and then see if I can\ndescribe it...\n\nFirst, you have to give up the idea that the topography of the inner\nsurface of the whorl is all relatively flat in relation to the spin\nWhorl's spin gravity, with habitat and cities everywhere. Imagine\nthat it's as eccentrically craggy and pitted as the exterior of a\nsmall asteroid.\n\nImagine a roughly circular cross-section of the whorl, with the long\nsun as a point light source in the center. Put a little stick-figure\nSilk down at 6:00. Draw a cross-section of a bowl resting on with its\nbottom on the surface of the Whorl at, say, 1:00. Sunlight shines\ninto the valley at all times except shadelow. Now, draw another bowl\nat 2:00, but tilt the bowl counterclockwise until the rim begins to\neclipse the sun. Now you've got shadow in your bowl. If you draw an\narrow indicating Silk's line of sight, you should find that he can see\nthe shadow in the bowl.\n\nNow, if you can picture that, you're probably thinking, \"Well, that's\nfine for bowls, and maybe for the exterior surface some very\nfracked-up asteroid, but no such geological formation would stand up\nunder gravity. Pas did some stupid shit when he built the Whorl, but\nsurely he didn't build useless geographical features out of magical\nshiprock.\" And I have no answer for you on that point.\n\nOn Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Jordon Flato \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are one of you going to pony up with some drawings or are we going to\nhave\nto arrange for a duel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<173801176.20090127204427@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanisław Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2009-01-27T19:44:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<273409710901270919g5b0e3156rb0990890a5723af7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello!\n\nOn 27 stycznia 2009, Jordon Flato wrote:\n\n\nAre one of you going to pony up with some drawings or are we going to have to arrange for a duel?\n\nMyself, I'd much rather see some drawings.\n\nI'm having a devil of a time seeing anything but High noon all over the Whorl.\n\n\nOn Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Matthew Groves wrote:\n\nNo, each valley -- each bowl would be filled with shadow. The\ntopography of the inner surface of the Whorl would have to be much\nmore eccentric than I had ever pictured it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 5:16 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nIn this scenario, does \"to the rim\" mean the valleys are each filled to\ntheir respective rim, or does it refer to some larger container, like the\nWhorl itself perhaps?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901271220q162d5b04h227691b854c3d2e1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-27T20:20:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<173801176.20090127204427@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've heard that shade-as-pulse along the Sun theory before, but had written\nit off, because I'd assumed it meant that an entire chunk of the Whorl (in\ncross section) would be in darkness at the same time (i.e. an entire section\nof the length of the Long Sun would be in darkness while farther west/east a\nportion would be in sunlight), and the fact that the brightness of the\nskylands overhead is mentioned repeatedly meant this could not be the case.\nThe area above viron is in bright sunlight (albiet very very far away) when\nit's night for Viron.\n\nHowever, the idea of the shade being a spiral sent along the length could\nresolve that. It would have to be a revolving spiral though, because of all\nof the talk about the crack of sun left from the shade rising or setting\n(occluding) the shade. So, we could have a sort of spinning spiral of shad\nconstantly being sent down the pole of the sun, like a barbers pole?\n\nCertainly though the shade is not sent out in discreet chunks which cover\nthe entirety of a section of the suns length at any time. If that were the\ncase, you would see nothing above you at all but the lights from distant\ncities, not rivers, valley's mountains and whatnot...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901271230o7dee419ct780eaaa0b6e590ee@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-27T20:30:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<173801176.20090127204427@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm having trouble seeing how the excerpts quoted indicate that the\nshade is a spiral, and trouble envisioning how a spiral shade would\never provide night anywhere in the Whorl, since there would always be\nsunlight coming from the east or west.\n\nThe last excerpt, for example (\"...the first thin thread of the long\nsun cutting the skylands in two\") seems to me to indicate that the\nshade moves from north to south over the width of the long sun, not\neast to west along its length. Same with \"the sun has already begun\nto narrow.\" And when Silk is looking at the skylands and seeing\nvalleys, it's late at night, and they're \"as clear and bright as\nSilk...had ever seen them.\" So it's full light, i.e. noon, in the\nskylands. The light is coming straight down on the skylands, not\nobliquely from the east or west. Yet Silk sees valleys filled with\nshadow.\n\nCan you point to anywhere in the text that refers to sunlight coming\nfrom the east or west but not from overhead?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901271242n70cc1329u5a1ba8b532fc2fa@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-27T20:42:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901271230o7dee419ct780eaaa0b6e590ee@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is still pretty much how I see it too. I could imagine the spiral if\nit was a reaaaaaaaaly long spiral so that for any siginficant portion of the\nWhirl, it seemed much like the lampshade paradigm that seems supported very\noften by the text (these thin strips of sun appearing, etc.)\n\nI don't think there can be any doubt, from the evidence, that the shade\nrotates (or the Whorl rotates round it!!!) north south. But if the\nEast/West spiral was long enough, you might get the lampshade effect but\nstill have some distant 'time zone' effect." } ] }, { "message_id": "<497F7DE6.4050300@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-27T21:34:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<273409710901270919g5b0e3156rb0990890a5723af7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordon Flato wrote:\nAre one of you going to pony up with some drawings or are we going to \nhave to arrange for a duel?\n\nMyself, I'd much rather see some drawings.\n\nI'm having a devil of a time seeing anything but High noon all over the \nWhorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Always the best time for a duel!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497F7FDB.9080002@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-27T21:42:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901271025t6f23e05ar18525d34ce73ba8e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nI can make a drawing, but I'm afraid I don't have the means to create\nand post a digital image. (I'm posting this email using some rocks\nand coke bottle I found.) If there's genuine interest, I'll be happy\nto post an image in a day or so. But someone will probably have to\ntell me how and where best to do that. (Seriously, I'm not good at\ncomputers.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyone can snail mail a drawing to me at\n\nJeff Wilson\n21 Big Oak Ln\nTexarkana TX 75503\n\nand I'll be happy to scan it, upload the image to my website, and post \nthe URL here." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<107560620.20090128001759@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanisław Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2009-01-27T23:17:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901271230o7dee419ct780eaaa0b6e590ee@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 27 stycznia 2009, Matthew Groves wrote:\nI'm having trouble seeing how the excerpts quoted indicate that the\nshade is a spiral, and trouble envisioning how a spiral shade would\never provide night anywhere in the Whorl, since there would always be\nsunlight coming from the east or west." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The last excerpt, for example (\"...the first thin thread of the long\nsun cutting the skylands in two\") seems to me to indicate that the\nshade moves from north to south over the width of the long sun, not\neast to west along its length. Same with \"the sun has already begun\nto narrow.\" And when Silk is looking at the skylands and seeing\nvalleys, it's late at night, and they're \"as clear and bright as\nSilk...had ever seen them.\" So it's full light, i.e. noon, in the\nskylands. The light is coming straight down on the skylands, not\nobliquely from the east or west. Yet Silk sees valleys filled with\nshadow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you point to anywhere in the text that refers to sunlight coming\nfrom the east or west but not from overhead?\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is a quote from \"Calde of the Long Sun\"\n\"Thank you,\" Silk repeated. \"Thank you very much indeed, Doctor.\" He grasped the operator's shoulder. \"You said we were getting a vector. Exactly what does that mean?\"\n\"It's a message you get if you float too fast, My Cald?, either north or south. You're supposed to slow down. The monitor's supposed to make you if you don't, but that doesn't work any more on this floater.\"\n\"I see.\" Silk nodded, encouragingly he hoped. \"Why are you supposed to slow down?\"\nOosik put in, \"Going too fast north makes you feel as if someone were shoveling sand on you. It is not good for you, and makes everyone in the floater slow to react. Going south too fast makes you giddy. It feels like swimming.\" \n\nAs can be easily seen, the Whorl rotates from south to north. If you stand at the Mainframe - the East Pole - and look West, the Whorl - and you- turn towards your right hand, that is north.\n\nAnd now look again at those quotes from the Exodus:\n\n...\nThe airship had revolved, whether from the torque of its engines or the pressure of some passing breeze, until Mainframe stood upright as a wall, its black slabs of colossal mechanism jutting toward them and its Pylon an endless bridge that dwarfed the airship and vanished into night. \nHorn gestured. \"See, Cald? We don't have to sit on the edge, but we can go over there if you want to. Way, way down you can see the Mountains That Look At Mountains, I guess. It's kind of blue at first, then so bright you can't be sure.\" \nNettle emerged from the hatch. \"I still don't understand what Mainframe is, Cald?. Just all those things with the lights running over them? And why do they have roofs here if it can't rain? How would they get the rain to come down?\" \n\"This is Mainframe,\" Silk told her. \"You are seeing it.\" \n\"The big square things?\"\n\"With what underlies its meadows and lawns; Mainframe is dispersed among them all. Imagine millions of millions of tiny circuits like those in a card billions of billions, actually. The warmth of each is less than the twinkle of a firefly; but there are so many that if they were packed together their own heat would destroy them. They would become a second sun. As things are it is always summer here, thanks to those circuits.\" \n....\n\nNettle said, \"Cald?, you never did answer my question about the roofs. And I wanted to know why the shade's so close here, and we can't see the sun.\" \n\"The Pylon makes it,\" Horn declared, \"or anyhow it shoots it into the sky. Isn't that right, Cald? Then the sun burns it but instead of smoke it turns into air. If the Pylon didn't shoot out more, the shade would burn up and there'd be daylight all the time. Only Mainframe would fry, because it's so close. The sun starts at the top of the Pylon and goes all the way to the West Pole.\" \n\nAnd another quote from the \"Nightside\"\n\n\"So it is with the gods, Auk. They speak to us all the time, exactly as the sun shines all the time. When the dark cloud that we call the shade gets between us and the sun, we say it's night, or nightside, a term I never heard until I came to Sun Street.\"\n\n\nPylon is vertical, that is, it grows from the Mainframe towards the Long Sun. It produces the Shade so that it permanently shadows the Mainframe. Notice that Mainframe is flat, not concave, and it certainly doesn't go around the Long Sun - it is only on one side of it. If the shade was a fixed construction parallel to the Long Sun, it could not at the same time keep the mainframe in the permanent shade.\n\nBut it is not fixed - it is, in fact, a cloud.\n\nThe most easy way to keep the shade in place would be to have it not rotate. (If the shade rotated it would have to be fixed to the Sun or it would be driven into the inner surface of the Whorl by the centrifugal force). Since the Pylon, which produces it, rotates around the Long Sun, and the shade is created always above Mainframe, as the result you would get a coil moving along the Long Sun. \n\nInterestingly, the shade must be produced at uneven speed - shot out in pulses. Otherwise it would shade always the same places.\n\n\n\nAs regards the first quote from the Nightside, you give only a part of it:\n\n\"It had been late already when they had left the city. Beyond the black streak of the shade, the skylands had been as clear and as bright as Silk (who normally retired early and rose at shadeup) had ever seen them; he stared at them as he rode, his thoughts drowned in wonder. Here were nameless mountains filling inviolate valleys to the rim with their vast, black shadows. Here were savannah and steppe, and a coastal plain ringing a lake that he judged must certainly be larger than Lake Limna all these doming the gloomy sky of night while they themselves were bathed in sunlight.\"\n\nThe skylands are rather far; my suggestion is that their different parts are in different time-zones, so those that are near shadeup (morning) or shadelow (evening) would have shadows. Note that in one quote from the \"Calde of the Long Sun\" there are mentioned shadowy skylands visible during night. There are fairly low south.\n\n\"So briefly that she was not sure she had really seen it, something flashed from the monstrous dark flying bulk, a minute pinprick of light, as though someone in the shadowy skylands behind it had squeezed an igniter. \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you point to anywhere in the text that refers to sunlight coming\nfrom the east or west but not from overhead?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why, the names East and West themselves. Why does the Whorl have East and West poles - a bit unusual convention? Because the light starts in the East.\n\nAlso the names shadeup-morning and shadelow -evening. Shadeup means the shade rises up in the East showing the first thin line of the sun; shadelow means the shade cames down in the West obscuring the last light of the sun. But since the shade is a helix, not a round band moving along the sun, the long sun appears first as a thin line and then grows wider." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best regards,\nStanislaus B.\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nKonkurs Walentynkowy! Wybierz nagrode i wygraj!\nSprawdz >> http://link.interia.pl/f2039 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8B2EC916FB8F42869E239BA9CB43FFE5@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-28T01:32:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<173801176.20090127204427@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didin't receive anything posted on the list since noon until just now. I \nsent Jordan some pictures that are apparently in line with the Whorl as \nMatthew envisioned it. But now I see that (I think) he has at last conceded \nthat shaded areas are possible in the Whorl and that they are widely \nviewable.\n\nAs for Stanislaw's description, I'm not sure I understand how Silk's \nconversation with Auk fits with it (as I understand it):\n\"Does the sun ever go out, Auk? Does it ever wink out as you or I might \nsnuff out a lamp?\"\n\n\"I guess it don't. You couldn't see them skylands up there nightside, if it \ndid.\"\n\nThis exchange seems to suggest that during Nightside, Auk sees darkness \nlooking East and West, but only sees the skylands lit.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901271806o310b5a43v31482b4c74590fd5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-28T02:06:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<8B2EC916FB8F42869E239BA9CB43FFE5@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 7:32 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI didin't receive anything posted on the list since noon until just now. I\nsent Jordan some pictures that are apparently in line with the Whorl as\nMatthew envisioned it. But now I see that (I think) he has at last conceded\nthat shaded areas are possible in the Whorl and that they are widely\nviewable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, under the circumstances I laid out. The trouble is, a bowl isn't\nreally the same thing as a valley. It's more like a crater. Wolfe\nsays in the interview, \"Where is the difficulty, unless all the\nvalleys run parallel to the Long Sun?\" He doesn't seem to be thinking\nabout bowls or craters, much less craters in a plane at an extravagant\nangle to spin gravity. In Wolfe's vision, it seems to be the case\nthat valleys running at an angle to the long sun can somehow, at least\nsometimes, be filled with \"vast black shadows\" during the day. That\nis, if the long dimension of the valley, where the river would be,\nruns north-south, then it can be dark in the valley. I have to admit\nI'm still having trouble seeing how that is possible." } ] }, { "message_id": "<61694.198.1233111195.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-01-28T02:53:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<8B2EC916FB8F42869E239BA9CB43FFE5@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But now I see that (I think) he has at last\nconceded\nthat shaded areas are possible in the Whorl" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When has anyone not agreed that, given miracle shiprock capable of\nassuming any shape without structural penalty, shaded areas would be\npossible?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and that they are widely\nviewable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The quote says \"[b]eyond the black streak of the shade,\" which is exactly\nwhere such a shadow would be least visible. Nor would it \"fill[ an]\ninviolate valley[] to the rim,\" unless you call something\nnear-perpendicular to the ground a \"valley.\"\n\nBut ultimately our difference is not geometrical. It is epistemic, and\npossibly aesthetic. I find the handwaving (as I see it) required to save\nthe shadow quote less plausible in terms of author intention, and more of\nan artistic failure, than making a mistake about shadows. You don't, which\nis fine. But I wish you'd address, or at least acknowledge, my actual\nargument instead of claiming that I'm not using my brain." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8871E985E4864FC0991FAFEE5D04553C@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-28T02:55:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901271806o310b5a43v31482b4c74590fd5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe said:\n\"Where is the difficulty, unless all the valleys run\nparallel to the Long Sun? Naturally they don't. \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In Wolfe's vision, it seems to be the case\nthat valleys running at an angle to the long sun can somehow, at least\nsometimes, be filled with \"vast black shadows\" during the day. That\nis, if the long dimension of the valley, where the river would be,\nruns north-south, then it can be dark in the valley. I have to admit\nI'm still having trouble seeing how that is possible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It never occurred to me to read this as a river valley, probably because it \nwould make no sense that way. Any depression near a steep precipice would \nlook like a valley from the other side of Whorl. I have always understood \n\"run parallel\" to mean \"on a plane that is in congruence with the line Long \nSun\" such that it was perpendicular to the light coming from the Long \nSun...which is the only way there could be shadows.\n\nBut there definitely *could* be shadows, and my experience with the \nimperfections human constructions in extreme topography tells me there would \nbe: for the same reason that there are few straightaways in highways through \nmountains.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<62957.198.1233112041.squirrel@o2.hostbaby.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-01-28T03:07:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<8871E985E4864FC0991FAFEE5D04553C@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But there definitely *could* be shadows, and my experience with the\nimperfections human constructions in extreme topography tells me there\nwould\nbe: for the same reason that there are few straightaways in highways\nthrough\nmountains." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe we do have a geometric disagreement after all, because this makes no\nsense to me. As crooked as the valleys/highways may be, areas where the\nsun is invisible when directly overhead are rare and small (barring\ntunnels, of course)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0901271936s4a378553n50777d8b8d9b225a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-28T03:36:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<8871E985E4864FC0991FAFEE5D04553C@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 8:55 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWolfe said:\n\"Where is the difficulty, unless all the valleys run\nparallel to the Long Sun? Naturally they don't. \"\n\nI have always understood\n\"run parallel\" to mean \"on a plane that is in congruence with the line Long\nSun\" such that it was perpendicular to the light coming from the Long\nSun...which is the only way there could be shadows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that this is the only way there could be shadows, but I think\nit's pretty clear that when Wolfe talks about \"valleys [that] run\nparallel to the long sun,\" he's imagining a valley whose long\ndimension aligns with the east-west axis of the whorl, implying that\nhe believes that a valley whose long dimension runs at an angle to the\neast-west axis would somehow be in shadow. I don't see how that's\npossible without Stanis?aw somehow being right about light coming from\nthe east or west but not overhead, but I think that's contradicted by\nthe text at several points, though I admit I don't fully understand\nHorn's and Silk's conversation about the Pylon and how it generates\nthe shade.\n\nAll of this is admittedly of very little importance, but there's snow\nand bitter cold here in the Midwest, and nothing to do but sit inside\nand think about the geometry of the Whorl. What I wouldn't give for\neven a long sun on a day like today!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497FDE05.6090505@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-28T04:24:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901271025t6f23e05ar18525d34ce73ba8e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nImagine a roughly circular cross-section of the whorl, with the long\nsun as a point light source in the center. Put a little stick-figure\nSilk down at 6:00. Draw a cross-section of a bowl resting on with its\nbottom on the surface of the Whorl at, say, 1:00. Sunlight shines\ninto the valley at all times except shadelow. Now, draw another bowl\nat 2:00, but tilt the bowl counterclockwise until the rim begins to\neclipse the sun. Now you've got shadow in your bowl. If you draw an\narrow indicating Silk's line of sight, you should find that he can see\nthe shadow in the bowl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose that counts as \"beyond the shade\" in that the bowls are \nfarther away than the shade is, though the direction is off about 30 \ndegrees." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497FF3DD.6000704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-28T05:57:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0901271230o7dee419ct780eaaa0b6e590ee@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nI'm having trouble seeing how the excerpts quoted indicate that the\nshade is a spiral, and trouble envisioning how a spiral shade would\never provide night anywhere in the Whorl, since there would always be\nsunlight coming from the east or west.\n\nThe last excerpt, for example (\"...the first thin thread of the long\nsun cutting the skylands in two\") seems to me to indicate that the\nshade moves from north to south over the width of the long sun, not\neast to west along its length. Same with \"the sun has already begun\nto narrow.\" And when Silk is looking at the skylands and seeing\nvalleys, it's late at night, and they're \"as clear and bright as\nSilk...had ever seen them.\" So it's full light, i.e. noon, in the\nskylands. The light is coming straight down on the skylands, not\nobliquely from the east or west. Yet Silk sees valleys filled with\nshadow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's possible that the Silk is opposite from the middle of a long day \nsection, so it is high noon as well as in the middle of the day \noverhead, but that the valleys are in the dawn or dusk far to the east \nor west, suggesting that the Whorl is several \"days\" long." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49807DE3.4070504@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-28T15:46:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<8871E985E4864FC0991FAFEE5D04553C@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nIt never occurred to me to read this as a river valley, probably because \nit would make no sense that way. Any depression near a steep precipice \nwould look like a valley from the other side of Whorl. I have always \nunderstood \"run parallel\" to mean \"on a plane that is in congruence with \nthe line Long Sun\" such that it was perpendicular to the light coming \nfrom the Long Sun...which is the only way there could be shadows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Planes and lines can't be congruent, by the definition of congruence." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901280953r14b40a21t1ba52ffc241442a0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-28T17:53:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<49807DE3.4070504@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here are James pictures, which give an idea of what he is getting at.\n\nhttp://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9717/longsunix8.jpg\n\n\n\n\n\nhttp://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7344/longsunpittedfb3.jpg\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nhttp://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5654/longsunzoombh4.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It never occurred to me to read this as a river valley, probably because\nit would make no sense that way. Any depression near a steep precipice would\nlook like a valley from the other side of Whorl. I have always understood\n\"run parallel\" to mean \"on a plane that is in congruence with the line Long\nSun\" such that it was perpendicular to the light coming from the Long\nSun...which is the only way there could be shadows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Planes and lines can't be congruent, by the definition of congruence.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<100916.52086.qm@web81406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-01-28T18:04:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ansible Interview", "in_reply_to": "<273409710901280953r14b40a21t1ba52ffc241442a0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They wouldn't open for me...anyone else have this problem or is it...shudder...me???\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Wed, 1/28/09, Jordon Flato wrote:\n\nFrom: Jordon Flato \nSubject: Re: (urth) Ansible Interview\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, January 28, 2009, 9:53 AM\n\n\nHere are James pictures, which give an idea of what he is getting at.\n\n\n\n#yiv348268152