{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5321", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5321, "subject": "Silk corrupted?", "messages": 32, "voices": 11, "first": "2009-01-22T19:05:04+00:00", "last": "2009-01-23T19:15:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<26b0d2e40901221105h3cbe3ce1w1a869c4078b71132@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Steve McCann", "address": "steve2mccann at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T19:05:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The recent discussion of Silk (as translated by Horn) reminds me of a\nquestion I've always had about book 4 of the Long Sun. As preface to the\nquestion, I was intrigued by Wolfe's talking about Severian being an aspect\nof the Outsider, but not a Christ as much as a Christian (Christ being a man\nnot corrupted.) Was Silk currupted by Typhon?\n\nOne thing that's always bothered me is in the trip to Mainframe, Horn's\nretelling of Silk seems to grow more and more distant until at the end of\nthe book I'm not really sure what Silk is thinking from the narrative.\nSpecifically why does Silk nearly throw himself from the blimp? I've always\nthought that at Mainframe Silk came to realize the presence of Typhon in\nhim, and that makes him suicidal. Not to include a spoiler from the short\nsun series, but the trip to mainframe seems to be a turning point for Silk\nwhich eventually leads him to being the hollowed out shell of the BotSS. Am\nI off base with this?\n-s" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1530964159-1232651315-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1997782132-@bxe264.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-01-22T19:08:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<26b0d2e40901221105h3cbe3ce1w1a869c4078b71132@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And does anyone have a clue why Hyacinth(not possessed by Kypris anymore??) suddenly wanted nothing to do with Silk at the end? Did I mis-read?\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Steve McCann \n\nDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:05:04 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: (urth) Silk corrupted?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-22T19:21:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<1530964159-1232651315-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1997782132-@bxe264.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure about corrupted.\nfrom the perspective of Long Sun only, I assumed he either thought he could save her and more, and got waylaid, or, symbolically that he copped out of the Exodus he would have lead and instead succumbed to worldly trappings of the false creation.\nI'll probably have to amend that as I read Short Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Steve McCann [mailto:steve2mccann at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:05 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: (urth) Silk corrupted?\n\nThe recent discussion of Silk (as translated by Horn) reminds me of a\nquestion I've always had about book 4 of the Long Sun. As preface to the\nquestion, I was intrigued by Wolfe's talking about Severian being an aspect\nof the Outsider, but not a Christ as much as a Christian (Christ being a man\nnot corrupted.) Was Silk currupted by Typhon?\n\nOne thing that's always bothered me is in the trip to Mainframe, Horn's\nretelling of Silk seems to grow more and more distant until at the end of\nthe book I'm not really sure what Silk is thinking from the narrative.\nSpecifically why does Silk nearly throw himself from the blimp? I've always\nthought that at Mainframe Silk came to realize the presence of Typhon in\nhim, and that makes him suicidal. Not to include a spoiler from the short\nsun series, but the trip to mainframe seems to be a turning point for Silk\nwhich eventually leads him to being the hollowed out shell of the BotSS. Am\nI off base with this?\n-s" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3026.67.142.130.20.1232655632.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-01-22T20:20:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<26b0d2e40901221105h3cbe3ce1w1a869c4078b71132@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian (and Silk) are human beings. They each have a single, human,\nnature. Christ is unique, in Christianity in that He has a dual nature,\nbeing both human and God. He is the only being in the Christian World that\nhas such a dual nature. He can manifest through other beings, and this is\nwhat is happening with Severian and Silk.\n\nNow in India there is an identical concept, but it is a class of beings\n(the avataras) not one single once for all exemplar. Occasionally\nmanifesting an avatar is one of the ways that God interacts with His\ncreation.\n\nThis fact, that there are records of only one of these guys in the West\nbut a number of them in India may just be because the Indian records are\nolder and more complete.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The recent discussion of Silk (as translated by Horn) reminds me of a\nquestion I've always had about book 4 of the Long Sun. As preface to the\nquestion, I was intrigued by Wolfe's talking about Severian being an\naspect\nof the Outsider, but not a Christ as much as a Christian (Christ being a\nman\nnot corrupted.) Was Silk currupted by Typhon?\n\nOne thing that's always bothered me is in the trip to Mainframe, Horn's\nretelling of Silk seems to grow more and more distant until at the end of\nthe book I'm not really sure what Silk is thinking from the narrative.\nSpecifically why does Silk nearly throw himself from the blimp? I've\nalways\nthought that at Mainframe Silk came to realize the presence of Typhon in\nhim, and that makes him suicidal. Not to include a spoiler from the short\nsun series, but the trip to mainframe seems to be a turning point for Silk\nwhich eventually leads him to being the hollowed out shell of the BotSS.\nAm\nI off base with this?\n-s\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-22T20:28:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<3026.67.142.130.20.1232655632.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is basically the spirit of my Severian / Christ / Logos comments.\nI think that JESUS could not be the only manifestation, so I've tried to steer clear of Jesus, and spoke of Christ or Logos.\n\nI haven't thought the same of Silk, who is obviously enlightened by God, but has no miracles to speak of. It may just be the nature of the third person narrative that we can't get into his head. \n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:20 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?\n\nSeverian (and Silk) are human beings. They each have a single, human,\nnature. Christ is unique, in Christianity in that He has a dual nature,\nbeing both human and God. He is the only being in the Christian World that\nhas such a dual nature. He can manifest through other beings, and this is\nwhat is happening with Severian and Silk.\n\nNow in India there is an identical concept, but it is a class of beings\n(the avataras) not one single once for all exemplar. Occasionally\nmanifesting an avatar is one of the ways that God interacts with His\ncreation.\n\nThis fact, that there are records of only one of these guys in the West\nbut a number of them in India may just be because the Indian records are\nolder and more complete.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The recent discussion of Silk (as translated by Horn) reminds me of a\nquestion I've always had about book 4 of the Long Sun. As preface to the\nquestion, I was intrigued by Wolfe's talking about Severian being an\naspect\nof the Outsider, but not a Christ as much as a Christian (Christ being a\nman\nnot corrupted.) Was Silk currupted by Typhon?\n\nOne thing that's always bothered me is in the trip to Mainframe, Horn's\nretelling of Silk seems to grow more and more distant until at the end of\nthe book I'm not really sure what Silk is thinking from the narrative.\nSpecifically why does Silk nearly throw himself from the blimp? I've\nalways\nthought that at Mainframe Silk came to realize the presence of Typhon in\nhim, and that makes him suicidal. Not to include a spoiler from the short\nsun series, but the trip to mainframe seems to be a turning point for Silk\nwhich eventually leads him to being the hollowed out shell of the BotSS.\nAm\nI off base with this?\n-s\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901221237h2ad892a5s7f0078196e5f007d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T20:37:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<3026.67.142.130.20.1232655632.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian even says something much like this, doesn't he? Each of us is\nparaclete to one, fiend to another? Something like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 3:20 PM, wrote:\nSeverian (and Silk) are human beings. They each have a single, human,\nnature. Christ is unique, in Christianity in that He has a dual nature,\nbeing both human and God. He is the only being in the Christian World that\nhas such a dual nature. He can manifest through other beings, and this is\nwhat is happening with Severian and Silk.\n\nNow in India there is an identical concept, but it is a class of beings\n(the avataras) not one single once for all exemplar. Occasionally\nmanifesting an avatar is one of the ways that God interacts with His\ncreation.\n\nThis fact, that there are records of only one of these guys in the West\nbut a number of them in India may just be because the Indian records are\nolder and more complete.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The recent discussion of Silk (as translated by Horn) reminds me of a\nquestion I've always had about book 4 of the Long Sun. As preface to the\nquestion, I was intrigued by Wolfe's talking about Severian being an\naspect\nof the Outsider, but not a Christ as much as a Christian (Christ being a\nman\nnot corrupted.) Was Silk currupted by Typhon?\n\nOne thing that's always bothered me is in the trip to Mainframe, Horn's\nretelling of Silk seems to grow more and more distant until at the end of\nthe book I'm not really sure what Silk is thinking from the narrative.\nSpecifically why does Silk nearly throw himself from the blimp? I've\nalways\nthought that at Mainframe Silk came to realize the presence of Typhon in\nhim, and that makes him suicidal. Not to include a spoiler from the short\nsun series, but the trip to mainframe seems to be a turning point for\nSilk\nwhich eventually leads him to being the hollowed out shell of the BotSS.\nAm\nI off base with this?\n-s\n > _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4978E668.90307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-22T21:34:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901221237h2ad892a5s7f0078196e5f007d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, come on. Christ has had a dual nature only since the Nicene Creed of 325!\n\nSeriously, you could just as well be describing the Monophysite or Arian Christs as Severian and Silk. Let's recall that you aren't comparing a real thing to a fictional thing. You are comparing fictional things to one another. As far as I can see, THEY ARE ALL CHRISTS. Wolfe's religion is secondary, because he could be holding up heretical Christs to compare them to the Chalcedonic Christ. We know his personal preference. So what?\n\nTHEY ARE ALL CHRISTS. Even if he is deliberately showing us only how partial they are---which I do not believe.\n\nAnd this is true regardless of your religious beliefs, aside from Bible fundamentalist Bible literalism.\n\nJust saying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:20:32 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901221401r7d735791rfd7cd1a08c876f60@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T22:01:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<4978E668.90307@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 4:34 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOh, come on. Christ has had a dual nature only since the Nicene Creed of\n325!\n\nSeriously, you could just as well be describing the Monophysite or Arian\nChrists as Severian and Silk. Let's recall that you aren't comparing a real\nthing to a fictional thing. You are comparing fictional things to one\nanother. As far as I can see, THEY ARE ALL CHRISTS. Wolfe's religion is\nsecondary, because he could be holding up heretical Christs to compare them\nto the Chalcedonic Christ. We know his personal preference. So what?\n\nTHEY ARE ALL CHRISTS. Even if he is deliberately showing us only how\npartial they are---which I do not believe.\n\nAnd this is true regardless of your religious beliefs, aside from Bible\nfundamentalist Bible literalism.\n\nJust saying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see your argument here, other than the use of the slippery term\n\"Christs.\" If Wolfe is deliberately contrasting what he believes to be the\nimperfection of a uni-nature messiah with that he believes to be the\nperfection of a dual-nature messiah, then of course his religion is\nrelevant--primary, even--to understanding his project.\n\nI tend to think that the Eastern concept of *theosis *is at work in Severian\nand Silk, but lots of ink and no small amount of blood have been spilled\ndistinguishing the idea of *becoming a more perfect image of God *from the\nidea of *becoming God*.\n\nThat distinction is precisely what's lost by using the term \"Christ.\"\n\"Christ\" just means \"annointed one\" and in that sense of course Severian and\nSilk (and Able and Neo and Frodo and Harry Potter and Starbuck and King\nDavid and Barack Obama and Sidney Crosby) are \"Christs\"--they are annointed\nones, chosen among others for an extraordinary task. None of them, however,\nis meant to be understood as the Godhead incarnate, which is the\nnatural-language translation of the term \"Christ\" due to its overwhelming\nuse as an honorific for the historical/religious/mythological/whatwillyou\nfigure of Jesus of Nazareth.\n\nYour point is very insightful as to Arian--while Arians, like Catholics,\northodox, and most Protestant Christians accepted that Jesus was *the\nChrist, *i.e., the Chosen One of God, they denied his *divine essence, *unlike\nthose other groups. Wolfe, as a Roman Catholic, does not deny the *divine\nessence *of Christ and has not, as far as I can tell, created a character\nmeant to embody the divine essence. He has, however, created a number of\ncharacters with messianic (or counter-messianic, i.e., Number Five)\nfunctions.\n\nTo the extent that these characters' lives follow the type of Jesus's life,\nin Wolfe, at least, they are meant as *imitatio dei. *Wolfe has said\nhimself that Severian's journey is the Christian journey--by his apeing of\nJesus, Severian becomes more Christ-like (Jesus-like is too ugly a\nneologism), while still falling short of divine moral perfection. Silk\nlikewise, although Silk is a far better man than Severian (or perhaps merely\na man with far more advantages--a seed sown on good earth, not in thorns).\n\nI think it is a very great error to read Wolfe's \"Christ figures\" as\nrepresentations of the divinity except in a very limited and incomplete\nsense. This isn't because I'm concerned about ideological purity--it's\nbecause I think that a great error in foundational thinking about these\ncomplex texts inevitably leads to other errors.\n\nAs for that \"limited and incomplete sense\", I suppose tremendous things\ncould be written on the idea of the Divine peeking from behind the curtain\nin Wolfe: the suggestion that gods in the Whorl, when the possess someone,\nleave something of themselves behind, for example, or the possibility that\neating the flesh of a higher being raises oneself up a level in the Wizard\nKnight. That stuff, to me, is much more interesting than the idea that a\npractising Catholic wrote a story about an Incarnation of the Most High who\nrapes, tortures, kills, commits adultery at the first opportunity, lies\nregularly and ultimately leads to the near-genocide of the human race." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:20:32 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-22T22:02:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901221401r7d735791rfd7cd1a08c876f60@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought about that Nicene creed last night too.\nIt's purely Exegesis to insist that he was divine.\n\nI take a bit of issue with your comment about fictional things, though of course it's a matter of opinion, or faith.\nI've been trying to speak of triangulating from two fictions to a real thing.\nor rather, from many fictions to a real thing.\nPersonally, I'm confident there is a God and the Logos is our path to him, and God's healing light into our Whorl. I feel all of these stories are fictions pointing at this very real entity. I have no confidence in the fiction of Jesus, or Mithras as historical fact, but I think the stories are talking about something real via plot metaphor. It's from that perspective that I've tried to discus Severian and Christ.\n\n/My two cents,\nkeep the change, Stu.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]\nSent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 01:34 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?\n\nOh, come on. Christ has had a dual nature only since the Nicene Creed of 325!\n\nSeriously, you could just as well be describing the Monophysite or Arian Christs as Severian and Silk. Let's recall that you aren't comparing a real thing to a fictional thing. You are comparing fictional things to one another. As far as I can see, THEY ARE ALL CHRISTS. Wolfe's religion is secondary, because he could be holding up heretical Christs to compare them to the Chalcedonic Christ. We know his personal preference. So what?\n\nTHEY ARE ALL CHRISTS. Even if he is deliberately showing us only how partial they are---which I do not believe.\n\nAnd this is true regardless of your religious beliefs, aside from Bible fundamentalist Bible literalism.\n\nJust saying.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:20:32 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370901221417q24150b68pf194523e0b87e91d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T22:17:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901221401r7d735791rfd7cd1a08c876f60@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bravo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:01 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 4:34 PM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, come on. Christ has had a dual nature only since the Nicene Creed of\n325!\n\nSeriously, you could just as well be describing the Monophysite or Arian\nChrists as Severian and Silk. Let's recall that you aren't comparing a real\nthing to a fictional thing. You are comparing fictional things to one\nanother. As far as I can see, THEY ARE ALL CHRISTS. Wolfe's religion is\nsecondary, because he could be holding up heretical Christs to compare them\nto the Chalcedonic Christ. We know his personal preference. So what?\n\nTHEY ARE ALL CHRISTS. Even if he is deliberately showing us only how\npartial they are---which I do not believe.\n\nAnd this is true regardless of your religious beliefs, aside from Bible\nfundamentalist Bible literalism.\n\nJust saying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see your argument here, other than the use of the slippery term\n\"Christs.\" If Wolfe is deliberately contrasting what he believes to be the\nimperfection of a uni-nature messiah with that he believes to be the\nperfection of a dual-nature messiah, then of course his religion is\nrelevant--primary, even--to understanding his project.\n\nI tend to think that the Eastern concept of theosis is at work in Severian\nand Silk, but lots of ink and no small amount of blood have been spilled\ndistinguishing the idea of becoming a more perfect image of God from the\nidea of becoming God.\n\nThat distinction is precisely what's lost by using the term \"Christ.\"\n\"Christ\" just means \"annointed one\" and in that sense of course Severian and\nSilk (and Able and Neo and Frodo and Harry Potter and Starbuck and King\nDavid and Barack Obama and Sidney Crosby) are \"Christs\"--they are annointed\nones, chosen among others for an extraordinary task. None of them, however,\nis meant to be understood as the Godhead incarnate, which is the\nnatural-language translation of the term \"Christ\" due to its overwhelming\nuse as an honorific for the historical/religious/mythological/whatwillyou\nfigure of Jesus of Nazareth.\n\nYour point is very insightful as to Arian--while Arians, like Catholics,\northodox, and most Protestant Christians accepted that Jesus was the Christ,\ni.e., the Chosen One of God, they denied his divine essence, unlike those\nother groups. Wolfe, as a Roman Catholic, does not deny the divine essence\nof Christ and has not, as far as I can tell, created a character meant to\nembody the divine essence. He has, however, created a number of characters\nwith messianic (or counter-messianic, i.e., Number Five) functions.\n\nTo the extent that these characters' lives follow the type of Jesus's life,\nin Wolfe, at least, they are meant as imitatio dei. Wolfe has said himself\nthat Severian's journey is the Christian journey--by his apeing of Jesus,\nSeverian becomes more Christ-like (Jesus-like is too ugly a neologism),\nwhile still falling short of divine moral perfection. Silk likewise,\nalthough Silk is a far better man than Severian (or perhaps merely a man\nwith far more advantages--a seed sown on good earth, not in thorns).\n\nI think it is a very great error to read Wolfe's \"Christ figures\" as\nrepresentations of the divinity except in a very limited and incomplete\nsense. This isn't because I'm concerned about ideological purity--it's\nbecause I think that a great error in foundational thinking about these\ncomplex texts inevitably leads to other errors.\n\nAs for that \"limited and incomplete sense\", I suppose tremendous things\ncould be written on the idea of the Divine peeking from behind the curtain\nin Wolfe: the suggestion that gods in the Whorl, when the possess someone,\nleave something of themselves behind, for example, or the possibility that\neating the flesh of a higher being raises oneself up a level in the Wizard\nKnight. That stuff, to me, is much more interesting than the idea that a\npractising Catholic wrote a story about an Incarnation of the Most High who\nrapes, tortures, kills, commits adultery at the first opportunity, lies\nregularly and ultimately leads to the near-genocide of the human race." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:20:32 -0500 (EST)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370901221418l392e8446j9180f4b9bee5ec58@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T22:18:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI thought about that Nicene creed last night too.\nIt's purely Exegesis to insist that he was divine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps. But Wolfe takes this as a given, and that is a fact that must\nbe dealt with in interpreting Wolfe's fiction." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4978F5CE.7030906@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-22T22:40:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370901221418l392e8446j9180f4b9bee5ec58@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, part of my point is that it's NOT a matter of opinion. The two things---narrative construction of Christ and reality of Christ---are two different things, in the same way that evolution is a fact regardless of religious belief, or even belief in evolution. The history of the Catholic orthodoxy is a matter of fact, and it shows that the orthodoxy that resulted, while not necessarily the result of chance, could well have turned out differently. \n\n(Naturally, TBotNS would then have been conceived differently, but if it hadn't---if, say, a copy from our universe landed in an alternative universe with an Arian orthodoxy---our discussion of Severian would be quite different. Readers would be saying, Why is this Wolfe guy calling Jesus Severian?)\n\nThe thing is, both works, TBotNS and the Bible, are analyzed the same way. You may not know that literary criticism actually began with biblical scholarship. So I'm not resorting to hyperbole when I say they are literally the same process. And given that, I would argue that they should be set more or less on the same plane like any two literary works. That is, not with a fixed, static idea of Christ looming over the proceedings, but with an understanding that we are dealing with an interpretation only, which can be responded to with other interpretations.\n\nI concede, of course, that the Bible takes precedence as a literary work in both stature and history, so Severian and Jesus can never really be coequals. But please let's dispense with the notion---the assumption---that there can only be a single Christ in all of human literature. It's an indefensible position.\n\nJohn---Thanks for your long response. I don't have time to respond fully right now, but please accept the above in partial response for now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:02:48 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370901221446w63e7c28fte150751748d1a90d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T22:46:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<4978F5CE.7030906@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:40 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI concede, of course, that the Bible takes precedence as a literary work in\nboth stature and history, so Severian and Jesus can never really be\ncoequals. But please let's dispense with the notion---the assumption---that\nthere can only be a single Christ in all of human literature. It's an\nindefensible position." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. Writers are free to create as many Christs as they choose, and\nto make them theoanthropoi, divine, etc.\n\nWhat is key here is that we are interpreting a work by a writer who\ntakes the position that Jesus was a unique historical figure, the sole\nTheoanthropos and Redeemer, an event which will not and *can* not\nbe repeated. This is *Wolfe's* position, and to interpret his work in\na way that violates this position is to do that work a violence which\nI cannot condone." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-22T22:56:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370901221446w63e7c28fte150751748d1a90d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "violence?\nthat may be overstepping. any great work is larger than it's author's intention. But I'm sympathetic with your feeling, despite having to poke at it a bit.\n\nWhat I don't understand, all Christ arguments aside, is \"How does a star have the consciousness of Severian? How does a star resurrect humans? How does a star steer time?\n\njust asking.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:danldo at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 02:46 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?\n\nOn Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:40 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I concede, of course, that the Bible takes precedence as a literary work in\nboth stature and history, so Severian and Jesus can never really be\ncoequals. But please let's dispense with the notion---the assumption---that\nthere can only be a single Christ in all of human literature. It's an\nindefensible position." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. Writers are free to create as many Christs as they choose, and\nto make them theoanthropoi, divine, etc.\n\nWhat is key here is that we are interpreting a work by a writer who\ntakes the position that Jesus was a unique historical figure, the sole\nTheoanthropos and Redeemer, an event which will not and *can* not\nbe repeated. This is *Wolfe's* position, and to interpret his work in\na way that violates this position is to do that work a violence which\nI cannot condone.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370901221501pfde96b2g1e86785100d62554@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:01:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nviolence?\nthat may be overstepping. any great work is larger than it's author's intention. But I'm sympathetic with your feeling, despite having to poke at it a bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interpretive violence. If that's too strong for you, OK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I don't understand, all Christ arguments aside, is \"How does a star have the consciousness of Severian? How does a star resurrect humans? How does a star steer time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have long since given up trying to make sense of this and accepted it as\na canonical miracle in the Briahverse." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6136.67.142.130.31.1232665710.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:08:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The idea that people (or some people) are in some way related to stars is\nvery, very old.\n\nIt appears in Judaism, Hinduism and various American Indian religions.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "violence?\nthat may be overstepping. any great work is larger than it's author's\nintention. But I'm sympathetic with your feeling, despite having to poke\nat it a bit.\n\nWhat I don't understand, all Christ arguments aside, is \"How does a star\nhave the consciousness of Severian? How does a star resurrect humans? How\ndoes a star steer time?\n\njust asking.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:danldo at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 02:46 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?\n\nOn Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:40 PM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I concede, of course, that the Bible takes precedence as a literary\nwork in\nboth stature and history, so Severian and Jesus can never really be\ncoequals. But please let's dispense with the notion---the\nassumption---that\nthere can only be a single Christ in all of human literature. It's an\nindefensible position." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agreed. Writers are free to create as many Christs as they choose, and\nto make them theoanthropoi, divine, etc.\n\nWhat is key here is that we are interpreting a work by a writer who\ntakes the position that Jesus was a unique historical figure, the sole\nTheoanthropos and Redeemer, an event which will not and *can* not\nbe repeated. This is *Wolfe's* position, and to interpret his work in\na way that violates this position is to do that work a violence which\nI cannot condone.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901221512v7d9dcb2s31c761b3fa0009d4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:12:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370901221501pfde96b2g1e86785100d62554@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might be a miracle, or it might be the work of Technology\nSufficiently Advanced, which, as we know, is indistinguishable from\nmagic.\n\nEither way, the Hierogrammates are the apparent architects of the link\nbetween Severian and the fountain. Either they are angels or vaguely\nsinister aliens (it might be better to say that either the bond is the\nwill of God or it is only the Hierogrammates' own agenda)--and that's\nits own interpretive conundrum--but whatever they are, it's clear that\nthe connection is something Severian has done to him, not something he\nis, despite the weirdness that time-travel brings into the story.\n\nAs for the inevitable question \"yes, but why Severian\" there are lots\nof possible reasons that have nothing to do with him being an avatar\nof God.\n\nI don't want to demystify him entirely, though--I think that Severian\ndoes act as God's catspaw throughout the novel, just in an oblique\nway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/22/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Son of Witz \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "violence?\nthat may be overstepping. any great work is larger than it's author's\nintention. But I'm sympathetic with your feeling, despite having to poke\nat it a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interpretive violence. If that's too strong for you, OK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What I don't understand, all Christ arguments aside, is \"How does a star\nhave the consciousness of Severian? How does a star resurrect humans? How\ndoes a star steer time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have long since given up trying to make sense of this and accepted it as\na canonical miracle in the Briahverse.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0901221514j7934e15ycb831b95f233e3a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:14:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<6136.67.142.130.31.1232665710.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the lyrics of Moby. Don't forget Moby." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/22/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe idea that people (or some people) are in some way related to stars is\nvery, very old.\n\nIt appears in Judaism, Hinduism and various American Indian religions.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "violence?\nthat may be overstepping. any great work is larger than it's author's\nintention. But I'm sympathetic with your feeling, despite having to poke\nat it a bit.\n\nWhat I don't understand, all Christ arguments aside, is \"How does a star\nhave the consciousness of Severian? How does a star resurrect humans? How\ndoes a star steer time?\n\njust asking.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:danldo at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 02:46 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?\n\nOn Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:40 PM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I concede, of course, that the Bible takes precedence as a literary\nwork in\nboth stature and history, so Severian and Jesus can never really be\ncoequals. But please let's dispense with the notion---the\nassumption---that\nthere can only be a single Christ in all of human literature. It's an\nindefensible position." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Agreed. Writers are free to create as many Christs as they choose, and\nto make them theoanthropoi, divine, etc.\n\nWhat is key here is that we are interpreting a work by a writer who\ntakes the position that Jesus was a unique historical figure, the sole\nTheoanthropos and Redeemer, an event which will not and *can* not\nbe repeated. This is *Wolfe's* position, and to interpret his work in\na way that violates this position is to do that work a violence which\nI cannot condone.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:17:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901221514j7934e15ycb831b95f233e3a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:danldo at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 03:01 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?\n\nOn Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "violence?\nthat may be overstepping. any great work is larger than it's author's intention. But I'm sympathetic with your feeling, despite having to poke at it a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interpretive violence. If that's too strong for you, OK." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_______________________________\n\non a tangent, \"interpretive violence\" reminds me of Biblical Violence.\nI love this song:\nhttp://video.google.com/videosearch?q=hella%20biblical%20violence&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#\n\n_________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What I don't understand, all Christ arguments aside, is \"How does a star have the consciousness of Severian? How does a star resurrect humans? How does a star steer time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have long since given up trying to make sense of this and accepted it as\na canonical miracle in the Briahverse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "__________________________\nsee, it's that more than anything that makes me assign Severian's consciousness into Diety category.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1116.67.142.130.31.1232666684.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:24:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0901221514j7934e15ycb831b95f233e3a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know anything about Moby.\n\nDick I don't think used this particular idea.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the lyrics of Moby. Don't forget Moby.\n\n\n\nOn 1/22/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The idea that people (or some people) are in some way related to stars\nis\nvery, very old.\n\nIt appears in Judaism, Hinduism and various American Indian religions.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "violence?\nthat may be overstepping. any great work is larger than it's author's\nintention. But I'm sympathetic with your feeling, despite having to\npoke\nat it a bit.\n\nWhat I don't understand, all Christ arguments aside, is \"How does a\nstar\nhave the consciousness of Severian? How does a star resurrect humans?\nHow\ndoes a star steer time?\n\njust asking.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:danldo at gmail.com]\nSent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 02:46 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?\n\nOn Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:40 PM, David Stockhoff\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I concede, of course, that the Bible takes precedence as a literary\nwork in\nboth stature and history, so Severian and Jesus can never really be\ncoequals. But please let's dispense with the notion---the\nassumption---that\nthere can only be a single Christ in all of human literature. It's an\nindefensible position." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Agreed. Writers are free to create as many Christs as they choose, and\nto make them theoanthropoi, divine, etc.\n\nWhat is key here is that we are interpreting a work by a writer who\ntakes the position that Jesus was a unique historical figure, the sole\nTheoanthropos and Redeemer, an event which will not and *can* not\nbe repeated. This is *Wolfe's* position, and to interpret his work in\na way that violates this position is to do that work a violence which\nI cannot condone.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901221528q5a7e4a81lc800b6ebb11a49b7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:28:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Witz, Let's make sure to keep Trey away from this conversation once he reads\nthe books. ;)\n\nOn the other hand, I'm intensely interested so see what he thinks of the\nbooks!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:42:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<273409710901221528q5a7e4a81lc800b6ebb11a49b7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz, Let's make sure to keep Trey away from this conversation once he reads\nthe books. ;)\n\nOn the other hand, I'm intensely interested so see what he thinks of the\nbooks!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll be utterly shocked if Trey doesn't see through it pretty clearly.\nThe man has a serious gift for insight. Watching The Black Rider stage play with him was revealing. he grasped levels of symbolism I was utterly blind to.\nI suppose that's no surprise to you though." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49790517.9010300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:45:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are 2 separate ideas: (1)\n\nWhat is key here is that we are interpreting a work by a writer who\ntakes the position that Jesus was a unique historical figure, the sole\nTheoanthropos and Redeemer, an event which will not and *can* not\nbe repeated. This is *Wolfe's* position, \n\nand \n\n(2)\n\nto interpret his work in a way that violates this position is to do that\nwork a violence which I cannot condone.\n\n_I_ do not _accept_ Wolfe's position. I _acknowledge_ Wolfe's position. This is my point. \n\nAnd it hardly does violence to anything except certain people's \nassumptions---which I reject _as assumptions_. Especially assumptions to \nbe forced on the debate as though they were _facts_. Do you see the \ndifference? ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 22 Jan \n2009 14:46:43 -0800 From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted? To: The Urth Mailing List \n Message-ID: \n<1f7617370901221446w63e7c28fte150751748d1a90d at mail.gmail.com> \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2:40 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI concede, of course, that the Bible takes precedence as a literary work in\nboth stature and history, so Severian and Jesus can never really be\ncoequals. But please let's dispense with the notion---the assumption---that\nthere can only be a single Christ in all of human literature. It's an\nindefensible position." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. Writers are free to create as many Christs as they choose, and\nto make them theoanthropoi, divine, etc.\n\nWhat is key here is that we are interpreting a work by a writer who\ntakes the position that Jesus was a unique historical figure, the sole\nTheoanthropos and Redeemer, an event which will not and *can* not\nbe repeated. This is *Wolfe's* position, and to interpret his work in\na way that violates this position is to do that work a violence which\nI cannot condone.\n\n-- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant ----- \nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer \nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com I once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile \nIsland dressing in a restaurant and, with great presence of mind, they \nbrought Thousand Island Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. \nPratchett ------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710901221547r55990f36g2e77f0e51dd48748@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:47:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's why I don't want him in the conversation: No you guys, it's\nobviously THIS. *I smack forehead wondering how I could have missed it*\n\nand that is also why I'd be intensely interested in his thoughts. On the\nother hand, these theological arguments hit close to home in that regard so\nhe may not find much to like in it at all, on a certain level...\n\nwho knows." } ] }, { "message_id": "<10F3056A-F9F7-4EAF-BC46-EB6918882AE0@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:48:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 22, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Witz, Let's make sure to keep Trey away from this conversation once \nhe reads\nthe books. ;)\n\nOn the other hand, I'm intensely interested so see what he thinks \nof the\nbooks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll be utterly shocked if Trey doesn't see through it pretty clearly.\nThe man has a serious gift for insight. Watching The Black Rider \nstage play with him was revealing. he grasped levels of symbolism I \nwas utterly blind to.\nI suppose that's no surprise to you though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awww shit.\n\nThere are other Tom Waits fans here?\n\nThis shouldn't be a surprise to me, should it? He's right up there in \nmy pantheon with Wolfe and Pynchon.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370901221555l6ffc9d9ft1213041e835c0b1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:55:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<49790517.9010300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 3:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThese are 2 separate ideas: (1)\n\nWhat is key here is that we are interpreting a work by a writer who\ntakes the position that Jesus was a unique historical figure, the sole\nTheoanthropos and Redeemer, an event which will not and *can* not\nbe repeated. This is *Wolfe's* position,\nand\n(2)\n\nto interpret his work in a way that violates this position is to do that\nwork a violence which I cannot condone.\n\n_I_ do not _accept_ Wolfe's position. I _acknowledge_ Wolfe's position. This\nis my point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We are in agreement so far. It is necessary, in interpreting Wolfe's\nwork, to acknowledge his positions. To do otherwise is to\nwilfully misinterpret." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And it hardly does violence to anything except certain people's\nassumptions---which I reject _as assumptions_. Especially assumptions to be\nforced on the debate as though they were _facts_. Do you see the difference?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do indeed. It is an *assumption* (or a belief) that Jesus is the unique\netc. It is a *fact* that Wolfe takes this assumption as a starting point\nfor his work. This fact should always be taken into account when\ninterpreting relevant aspects of his work.\n\nAs a result, it is legitimate to say that Severian is \"Christ-like,\" but\nnot to say that he is \"a Christ.\" The former fits the writer's\nintent and assumptions; the latter does not. Unless you take an\nextreme postmodernist \"death of the author\" point of view -- with\nwhich I have very little sympathy, though I _do_ believe that the\ntext is the text and the author is not a privileged interpreter --\nanyway, unless you take that position, saying that Severian is\n\"a Christ\" is precisely what I say: a violence against Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26b0d2e40901221558p1e21157cyc62204bfae00fb69@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Steve McCann", "address": "steve2mccann at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-22T23:58:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<10F3056A-F9F7-4EAF-BC46-EB6918882AE0@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure if the answers to the original query constitutes a shit storm,\nbut I guess it will do until one gets here.\n\nBut back to the original question, is Wolfe indicating that Silk recognizes\nhis own corruption in Book 4 of BotLS? (specifically the trip to mainframe?)\nIs this what causes his apparent depression? The more I think about it, the\nmore I like the theme of corruption in the series:\n\nMuccor corrupted by Blood\nSilk corrupted by Hyacinth\nThe councilors corrupted by their mechanical avatars\netc. etc.\n\nJust curious.\n-s" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Jan 22, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Witz, Let's make sure to keep Trey away from this conversation once he\nreads\nthe books. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On the other hand, I'm intensely interested so see what he thinks of the\nbooks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll be utterly shocked if Trey doesn't see through it pretty clearly.\nThe man has a serious gift for insight. Watching The Black Rider stage\nplay with him was revealing. he grasped levels of symbolism I was utterly\nblind to.\nI suppose that's no surprise to you though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Awww shit.\n\nThere are other Tom Waits fans here?\n\nThis shouldn't be a surprise to me, should it? He's right up there in my\npantheon with Wolfe and Pynchon.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-01-23T00:05:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<26b0d2e40901221558p1e21157cyc62204bfae00fb69@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'll be utterly shocked if Trey doesn't see through it pretty clearly.\nThe man has a serious gift for insight. Watching The Black Rider \nstage play with him was revealing. he grasped levels of symbolism I \nwas utterly blind to.\nI suppose that's no surprise to you though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Awww shit.\n\nThere are other Tom Waits fans here?\n\nThis shouldn't be a surprise to me, should it? He's right up there in \nmy pantheon with Wolfe and Pynchon.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good lord, Yes.\nI've got almost every album. some gaps in the early jazzbeau years.\nSaw him live once at the Paramount in Oakland. great set.\nall seated. they wouldn't let me dance in the isle, wouldn't let me dance in the back, wouldn't let me dance at my seat, and once all options were explored, it was song break, so I yelled \"Tom, they won't let me dance\"\nTom looked up, out to the audience indirectly, and said \"You can do whatever you want...But let's make a deal. how about, dance to some, and not to others\"\nand then he went into \"Shore Leave\" which is not danceworthy. But when Phillipino Box Spring Hog came up, I was free to go nuts. We stormed the front towards the end. I was getting down with some hot 50 year old black woman to Big in Japan. too much fun. this was probably 1999 or so.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8F135125-3FC8-47CD-B220-5E9D1ABCF8DE@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-01-23T00:20:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 22, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nGood lord, Yes.\nI've got almost every album. some gaps in the early jazzbeau years.\nSaw him live once at the Paramount in Oakland. great set.\nall seated. they wouldn't let me dance in the isle, wouldn't let me \ndance in the back, wouldn't let me dance at my seat, and once all \noptions were explored, it was song break, so I yelled \"Tom, they \nwon't let me dance\"\nTom looked up, out to the audience indirectly, and said \"You can do \nwhatever you want...But let's make a deal. how about, dance to some, \nand not to others\"\nand then he went into \"Shore Leave\" which is not danceworthy. But \nwhen Phillipino Box Spring Hog came up, I was free to go nuts. We \nstormed the front towards the end. I was getting down with some hot \n50 year old black woman to Big in Japan. too much fun. this was \nprobably 1999 or so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This summer.\n\nOrchestra pit, 4th row:\n\nhttp://www.fsf.net/~adam/TomWaits20080626/\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<605169.92936.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-01-23T05:38:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fiction and Wolfe's personal beliefs", "in_reply_to": "<49790517.9010300@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So a lot of the theological discussion raises certain questions for me:\n\nCertainly Wolfe is a Catholic. Must his fiction also be Catholic?\n\nAnd if it is theologically orthodox, where are we to find that orthodoxy?\n\nA case in point is Peter Wright's interpretation. For Wright *all* of the New Sun basically boils down to an exercise in religion-as-conspiracy. In sum, for Wright, New Sun ultimately has no religious aspect at all. Rather, the Hieros create a conspiracy in which everything *looks* orthodox but is, in fact, nothing of the sort. Severian is manipulated through and through, even (and especially) when he thinks he's finally in direct contact with the divine. Throughout, according to Wright, he's simply a tool. And, what's more, all of the evidence that we are given that Severian is in fact part of a larger mythological story is not transcendence, but, in fact, further evidence of the thoroughness of the cosmic conspiracy.\n\nMy point is that Wright never tries to claim that Wolfe, himself, goes against his own beliefs. But he points out how it's possible to read his fiction as not at all straightforwardly an expression of personal faith. Rather, one might say that Wright's interpretation gives a story in which Wolfe shows how his own faith could be used in a very false way, inspiring faith but without any real substance.\n\nMy real question here is whether invoking Wolfe's faith is really a kind of master-key to his texts. Certainly it *informs* his fiction in countless ways, but does every one of his works ultimately have to be an allegory of his own beliefs?\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-23T06:21:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fiction and Wolfe's personal beliefs", "in_reply_to": "<605169.92936.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say that while it is not a master-key, it is something that allows dimensions of interpretation that would otherwise be unavailable, and that seem to have a substantial foundation in some of his texts.\n\nAnother thing I could say that might be more controversial, though I think most people on this list accept it, is that Wolfe is a writer (and certainly there have been many of them) that attempts to use his writing to display a sort of moral truth. The truth doesn't necessarily have to be literally in what he says, but it is *shown* in one way or another, and sometimes (obviously) very indirectly. And generally speaking most of us think that an interpretation of Wolfe that lacks this aspect - or pushes it out to a marginal/trivial position - is deficient in some way." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 21:38:51 -0800\nFrom: cnbrewer at yahoo.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Fiction and Wolfe's personal beliefs\n\nSo a lot of the theological discussion raises certain questions for me:\n\nCertainly Wolfe is a Catholic. Must his fiction also be Catholic?\n\nAnd if it is theologically orthodox, where are we to find that orthodoxy?\n\nA case in point is Peter Wright's interpretation. For Wright *all* of the New Sun basically boils down to an exercise in religion-as-conspiracy. In sum, for Wright, New Sun ultimately has no religious aspect at all. Rather, the Hieros create a conspiracy in which everything *looks* orthodox but is, in fact, nothing of the sort. Severian is manipulated through and through, even (and especially) when he thinks he's finally in direct contact with the divine. Throughout, according to Wright, he's simply a tool. And, what's more, all of the evidence that we are given that Severian is in fact part of a larger mythological story is not transcendence, but, in fact, further evidence of the thoroughness of the cosmic conspiracy.\n\nMy point is that Wright never tries to claim that Wolfe, himself, goes against his own beliefs. But he points out how it's possible to read his fiction as not at all straightforwardly an expression of personal faith. Rather, one might say that Wright's interpretation gives a story in which Wolfe shows how his own faith could be used in a very false way, inspiring faith but without any real substance.\n\nMy real question here is whether invoking Wolfe's faith is really a kind of master-key to his texts. Certainly it *informs* his fiction in countless ways, but does every one of his works ultimately have to be an allegory of his own beliefs?\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<497A1762.2010803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-01-23T19:15:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk corrupted?", "in_reply_to": "<8F135125-3FC8-47CD-B220-5E9D1ABCF8DE@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John---\n\nYou are exactly correct that the very use of the term \"Christ figure\" vs \"Christ\" or even \"a Christian\" is part of my problem. Wolfe himself in interview does not seem to make a sharp distinction between whether Severian/Silk are Christ figures or men or who are trying to be good or closer to God (as you note), and that's the distinction you'd think would be clearest here. But an author can wave his wand and introduce signs and signifiers and point you on your way, whether clumsily (Neo in The Matrix) or not. (I just noticed Obama in your list---ha!) Mr. Magoo could be \"made\" a Christ figure. And that's not irrelevant.\n\nI also grasp the usefulness of the distinction between Christ and Christ figure, as you have described---and I have never argued that Severian is Christ, though some here seem to think I have. (Sometimes people take questions as assertions; I don't know why.) But I don't think the distinction is exactly cut and dried, nor, obviously, should it be wielded like a hammer. I wonder, though---setting convention aside---whether even Jesus saw himself, in his own narration of his own life, as a Godhead. And this is a side point regarding the creation of the Christ myth or propaganda: that the historical Jesus vanishes behind the Christ story, whether it is true or not. But the One True Christ remains an 800-pound gorilla. In fact, it is impossible to write about him; much easier to work with his reflections.\n\nYou can say, \"This was Napoleon,\" and establish that no literary characters can ever \"be\" Napoleon, though they can masquerade as him or pretend to be his ghost or echo in alternative-history stories and so on. But you can't pin down a historical Christ so easily, and separate him from his existing echoes. In fact, it's easier to do so if you ignore the \"historical\" Christ entirely and choose only to see the canonical one---if you ignore history. The writer is free to do so; the critic is not. Certainly, the critic has no right, arguing simply from authority, to silence another critic who chooses to see the other very real Christs and wonder if they are not so easily pushed aside. \n\nBy the same token, ignoring Wolfe's known beliefs would make interpreting his work much more difficult. But let's remember that the author's beliefs are not in the text. They are outside the text, and we shouldn't pretend they are in the text just because we know them well or even share them---perhaps especially so. Again, the critic has the right to ignore them if he chooses. Personally, I want to know a few general things about them, especially those he considers important. Were I reading Milton, I would not reject the treatises on divorce---though I would try to read them after Paradise Lost, not before. But I don't want to know his or Wolfe's whole theology, and I wouldn't force it on another reader. I don't care about Wolfe the theologist---I care about Wolfe the mythologist, who dares to play with---to parody, to juggle, to play-act---the different kinds and degrees of Christ, whether or not they should be seen as valid or as mere failed attempts to understand \"him\" (\"It,\" really) before the correct interpretation was achieved in 325.\n\nSo this is what I was objecting to. \n\nAnyway, you are exactly and entirely right. I am indeed still stuck with the fact that Severian briefly seems to experience the consciousness of the Increate. I don't see him as Christ, yet, I don't know what else he could be but a very close analog/twin/brother. I don't buy that he can't really be \"Chalcedonic\" (divine+human) or Nicaean simply because there can be only one of those. I also am not satisfied with calling it a miracle (other than, as you suggest, as a break in the Veil, though surely even such events are the will of the Increate) or calling Severian a demigod---those aren't answers. \n\nI believe Wolfe was signaling something to us that must have more importance than has been recognized. But that doesn't necessarily mean it is part of a consistent scheme, i.e., a revelation of the Truth. It may simply be that he felt (since TUotNS was his puzzle solution) that he needed to say, Yes, Severian should be considered in the context of Christ. Seems silly now, but I know that was not understood quite as quickly as you'd think when the series came out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:01:44 -0500\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) Silk corrupted?\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0901221401r7d735791rfd7cd1a08c876f60 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 4:34 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\nI don't see your argument here, other than the use of the slippery term\n\"Christs.\" If Wolfe is deliberately contrasting what he believes to be the\nimperfection of a uni-nature messiah with that he believes to be the\nperfection of a dual-nature messiah, then of course his religion is\nrelevant--primary, even--to understanding his project.\n\nI tend to think that the Eastern concept of *theosis *is at work in Severian\nand Silk, but lots of ink and no small amount of blood have been spilled\ndistinguishing the idea of *becoming a more perfect image of God *from the\nidea of *becoming God*.\n\nThat distinction is precisely what's lost by using the term \"Christ.\"\n\"Christ\" just means \"annointed one\" and in that sense of course Severian and\nSilk (and Able and Neo and Frodo and Harry Potter and Starbuck and King\nDavid and Barack Obama and Sidney Crosby) are \"Christs\"--they are annointed\nones, chosen among others for an extraordinary task. None of them, however,\nis meant to be understood as the Godhead incarnate, which is the\nnatural-language translation of the term \"Christ\" due to its overwhelming\nuse as an honorific for the historical/religious/mythological/whatwillyou\nfigure of Jesus of Nazareth.\n\nYour point is very insightful as to Arian--while Arians, like Catholics,\northodox, and most Protestant Christians accepted that Jesus was *the\nChrist, *i.e., the Chosen One of God, they denied his *divine essence, *unlike\nthose other groups. Wolfe, as a Roman Catholic, does not deny the *divine\nessence *of Christ and has not, as far as I can tell, created a character\nmeant to embody the divine essence. He has, however, created a number of\ncharacters with messianic (or counter-messianic, i.e., Number Five)\nfunctions.\n\nTo the extent that these characters' lives follow the type of Jesus's life,\nin Wolfe, at least, they are meant as *imitatio dei. *Wolfe has said\nhimself that Severian's journey is the Christian journey--by his apeing of\nJesus, Severian becomes more Christ-like (Jesus-like is too ugly a\nneologism), while still falling short of divine moral perfection. Silk\nlikewise, although Silk is a far better man than Severian (or perhaps merely\na man with far more advantages--a seed sown on good earth, not in thorns).\n\nI think it is a very great error to read Wolfe's \"Christ figures\" as\nrepresentations of the divinity except in a very limited and incomplete\nsense. This isn't because I'm concerned about ideological purity--it's\nbecause I think that a great error in foundational thinking about these\ncomplex texts inevitably leads to other errors.\n\nAs for that \"limited and incomplete sense\", I suppose tremendous things\ncould be written on the idea of the Divine peeking from behind the curtain\nin Wolfe: the suggestion that gods in the Whorl, when the possess someone,\nleave something of themselves behind, for example, or the possibility that\neating the flesh of a higher being raises oneself up a level in the Wizard\nKnight. That stuff, to me, is much more interesting than the idea that a\npractising Catholic wrote a story about an Incarnation of the Most High who\nrapes, tortures, kills, commits adultery at the first opportunity, lies\nregularly and ultimately leads to the near-genocide of the human race." } ] } ] }