{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5323", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5323, "subject": "BSG Spoiler", "messages": 359, "voices": 44, "first": "2009-01-25T15:59:26+00:00", "last": "2010-07-13T01:04:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<839275.87062.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-01-25T15:59:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No peeking witz\n\nI hate to post a BSG message here, but I'm not such a geek as to post rantings on random BSG websites....\n...am I????\n\nAnyway, you know that Ellen isn't the final Cylon.\nSince \"Earth\" turned out to be home to a different breed of Cylon where they aged, she is just an aged 6.\n\nAnd the final Cylon is....\n\nAll misleading arrows point to Starbucks\n\nps...How did I miss that the Whorl was orbiting B&G for 40 years and why did it take so long for them to leave????\n\n~S~\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-01-25T16:42:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<839275.87062.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All misleading arrows point to Starbucks" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pick me up a frapacino while you're there.\n\nPersonally, I've always suspected that Adama healed up way too fast when Athena shot him.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<341173.43375.qm@web63908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-16T16:12:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That show jumped the shark at least a season ago. \"They have a plan...\" Nah, Ron Moore was just making it up as he went along.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Sun, 1/25/09, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\nTo: hammstu at sbcglobal.net, \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 11:42 AM\nAll misleading arrows point to Starbucks" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pick me up a frapacino while you're there.\n\nPersonally, I've always suspected that Adama healed up way too fast when Athena shot him.\n\nJ\n\n?_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-16T22:29:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<341173.43375.qm@web63908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the BSG story arc was planned. we'll see.\nthis season is kinda hurting though.\n\nin other tangental news, (seems to fit as well here as anywhere)\nWatchmen was pretty fracking awesome.\nThe film kept the basic message and tone of the book, IMO.\nFor Listers who haven't read it, Watchmen is interesting as literature, because, like Wolfe, Moore is masterful at making his major theme resonate in the basic plot, in all the subtext, and in each character in microcosm. An incredible look at how our attempts to use violence in the name of peace and justice disfigure our humanity.\n\nI suppose I'm writing about it here because I couldn't help but think about New Sun during it. As some may have noted, I'm working on illustrations for BotNS (my own motivation, not commissioned) so the notion of adaptation and illustration was on my mind. I kept thinking, during the obtuse scene on mars, how much this thing was an illustration, thinking how odd and cumbersome a work to put to screen, all the while thinking, why am I even trying to illustrate BotNS? what perverse desire is there to add illustrations to something already perfect? Also, I hope no one ever tries to make a New Sun movie in 2.75 hours. How strange and confusing it would be. Like Watchmen has all the trappings of Super Hero comic, New Sun has all the trappings of Sword and Sworcery novel, yet neither are truly examples of the forms they seem to take on, and are instead quite strange beasts. The marketing of both is misleading.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Fred Kiesche [mailto:recursive_loop at yahoo.com]\nSent: Monday, March 16, 2009 09:12 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\n\nThat show jumped the shark at least a season ago. \"They have a plan...\" Nah, Ron Moore was just making it up as he went along.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Sun, 1/25/09, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6474.72.171.0.140.1237244368.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-16T22:59:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Watchmen was pretty fracking awesome.\nThe film kept the basic message and tone of the book, IMO.\nFor Listers who haven't read it, Watchmen is interesting as literature,\nbecause, like Wolfe, Moore is masterful at making his major theme resonate\nin the basic plot, in all the subtext, and in each character in microcosm.\n An incredible look at how our attempts to use violence in the name of\npeace and justice disfigure our humanity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or yet another anarchist whining about how he doesn't like reality cause\nit's got nasty bits.\n\nHe's not just one ordinary bator, you know.\n\n\nImagine no more clothing\nWe never wear a stitch\nImagine no possessions\nIt's easy if you're rich\n\n-- John Lennon, sorta.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-16T23:08:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<6474.72.171.0.140.1237244368.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Monday, March 16, 2009 03:59 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Watchmen was pretty fracking awesome.\nThe film kept the basic message and tone of the book, IMO.\nFor Listers who haven't read it, Watchmen is interesting as literature,\nbecause, like Wolfe, Moore is masterful at making his major theme resonate\nin the basic plot, in all the subtext, and in each character in microcosm.\n An incredible look at how our attempts to use violence in the name of\npeace and justice disfigure our humanity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or yet another anarchist whining about how he doesn't like reality cause\nit's got nasty bits.\n\nHe's not just one ordinary bator, you know.\n\n\nImagine no more clothing\nWe never wear a stitch\nImagine no possessions\nIt's easy if you're rich\n\n-- John Lennon, sorta." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems to be a remarkably common critique of Alan Moore.\nto my ears, it sounds something like \"Another social critique that doesn't offer a alternative solution! Now you got me all depressed and didn't offer no sunshine, wah...\"\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6766.67.142.130.43.1237248642.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T00:10:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Watchmen was ...\n An incredible look at how our attempts to use violence in the name of\npeace and justice disfigure our humanity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or yet another anarchist whining about how he doesn't like reality cause\nit's got nasty bits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He's not just one ordinary bator, you know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Imagine no more clothing\nWe never wear a stitch\nImagine no possessions\nIt's easy if you're rich" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-- John Lennon, sorta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That seems to be a remarkably common critique of Alan Moore.\nto my ears, it sounds something like \"Another social critique that doesn't\noffer a alternative solution! Now you got me all depressed and didn't\noffer no sunshine, wah...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tough. The World is a certain way. Some problems don't have solutions. The\nsooner you accept that, the more useful you will be in solving the\nproblems that do have solutions.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T01:30:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<6766.67.142.130.43.1237248642.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 5:10 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Watchmen was ...\nAn incredible look at how our attempts to use violence in the \nname of\npeace and justice disfigure our humanity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or yet another anarchist whining about how he doesn't like reality \ncause\nit's got nasty bits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He's not just one ordinary bator, you know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Imagine no more clothing\nWe never wear a stitch\nImagine no possessions\nIt's easy if you're rich" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-- John Lennon, sorta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That seems to be a remarkably common critique of Alan Moore.\nto my ears, it sounds something like \"Another social critique that \ndoesn't\noffer a alternative solution! Now you got me all depressed and didn't\noffer no sunshine, wah...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tough. The World is a certain way. Some problems don't have \nsolutions. The\nsooner you accept that, the more useful you will be in solving the\nproblems that do have solutions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "wow. thanks for the hot tip.\nis kneejerk politics the only lens to observe Alan Moore's work with?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8FBE9D02-8F3F-4F3E-921C-B35C257F9E0A@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T02:05:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 8:30 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nwow. thanks for the hot tip.\nis kneejerk politics the only lens to observe Alan Moore's work with?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Silk Spectre\" sounds sort of like \"Seawrack\" if you're even drunker.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T02:19:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<8FBE9D02-8F3F-4F3E-921C-B35C257F9E0A@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: adam at io.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:05:26 -0500\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\n\n\nOn Mar 16, 2009, at 8:30 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wow. thanks for the hot tip.\nis kneejerk politics the only lens to observe Alan Moore's work with?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Silk Spectre\" sounds sort of like \"Seawrack\" if you're even drunker.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "C. Everett Koop sounds a little bit like it...\n\nYou'll get even drunker just trying to get that image out of your head." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2605.67.142.130.41.1237261735.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T03:48:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<8FBE9D02-8F3F-4F3E-921C-B35C257F9E0A@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hold on. Isn't kneejerk politics Moore's main lens? How is it unfair to\nturn the man's instrument on himself?\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 8:30 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wow. thanks for the hot tip.\nis kneejerk politics the only lens to observe Alan Moore's work with?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Silk Spectre\" sounds sort of like \"Seawrack\" if you're even drunker.\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T04:20:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<2605.67.142.130.41.1237261735.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Politics appears in Moore's work, though I have never detected any particular political thesis he's forwarding or an outright agenda.\n\nWolfe is more overtly political." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:48:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\n\nHold on. Isn't kneejerk politics Moore's main lens? How is it unfair to\nturn the man's instrument on himself?\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 8:30 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "wow. thanks for the hot tip.\nis kneejerk politics the only lens to observe Alan Moore's work with?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Silk Spectre\" sounds sort of like \"Seawrack\" if you're even drunker.\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1556.67.142.130.39.1237266391.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T05:06:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alan Moore is or is not the author of 'From Hell' and 'V for Vendetta'?\n\nYes indeed Gene Wolfe's work is overtly political. I find it interesting\nthat politics is almost never discussed on this list. I would welcome a\ndiscussion of the politics of Wolfe's work.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Politics appears in Moore's work, though I have never detected any\nparticular political thesis he's forwarding or an outright agenda.\n\nWolfe is more overtly political.\n\n--\n\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about\nto set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:48:55 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\n\nHold on. Isn't kneejerk politics Moore's main lens? How is it unfair to\nturn the man's instrument on himself?\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 8:30 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "wow. thanks for the hot tip.\nis kneejerk politics the only lens to observe Alan Moore's work with?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Silk Spectre\" sounds sort of like \"Seawrack\" if you're even drunker.\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T05:46:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<341173.43375.qm@web63908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 9:12 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote:\nThat show jumped the shark at least a season ago. \"They have a \nplan...\" Nah, Ron Moore was just making it up as he went along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dang, watching this \"Last Frakking Special\" I think you're right. \nthey didn't know where they were going." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T06:26:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Alan Moore", "in_reply_to": "<1556.67.142.130.39.1237266391.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 10:06 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAlan Moore is or is not the author of 'From Hell' and 'V for \nVendetta'?\n\nYes indeed Gene Wolfe's work is overtly political. I find it \ninteresting\nthat politics is almost never discussed on this list. I would \nwelcome a\ndiscussion of the politics of Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"V for Vendetta\" is much more politically charged than Watchmen, in \nthat \"V for Vendetta\" is making a case for anarchism, and distinctly \ncritiquing the Thatcher era as fascist. Sure, Watchmen questions \nAmerican power, but it's hardly just about that, and it's not making a \ncase for any political system. It's asking questions, not giving pat \npolitical answers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 5:10 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nTough. The World is a certain way. Some problems don't have \nsolutions. The\nsooner you accept that, the more useful you will be in solving the\nproblems that do have solutions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, we shouldn't write stories about problems that don't have \nsolutions? Is that what you're saying?\nSurely there's been plenty of great stories about death, war, loss, \nand many other REAL problems that people face.\nI don't find anything \"Whiney or anarchist\" about Watchmen's message. \nI see an author giving us a profound meditation on how our attempts to \nuse power and violence to protect and bring peace often disfigure \nhumanity, as well as it's parallel question of who monitors those \njudges and keeps them in check. That's NOT to say that the book is \nsaying \"Don't fight\" or, \"No one should have the power\", or any other \ntrite pacifist sort of statement. It's a profound question; What \ngives someone the right to set themselves up as judge, jury and \nexecutioner? This certainly applies to the vigilantes in the story, \nbut also applies to a government run amok, exemplified by a Nixon \ncharacter who has stayed in office for 5 terms. In most examples in \nthe book, they all go too far and lose there humanity. The Dr. \nManhattan character is especially loaded in this respect, because he \nis, symbolically and literally, a product of The Bomb. Bombing \nHiroshima, I believe, did some strange things to our psyche. I might \ngo so far as to say we were psychologically disfigured, but I'll leave \nthat to Alan Moore to do. But, you know, who judges between such \nscales? What did Oppenheimer say, \"I am become Death.\"\n\nAnyway, Moore asks those questions with Watchmen, and one of it's \nstrengths is that it doesn't give an answer. He doesn't try to set up \nsome idealistic example of an alternative. He doesn't moralize and say \nit's \"wrong\", he just explores the topic, masterfully, through the \nsmall and large parts of the story. His theme resonates throughout the \nwork, in just about every pore. I've encountered few writers who have \ndone it so well. Wolfe is another.\n\nSorry if I seem pitched. I've seen a few politicized comments that \nstruck me as completely off base in regards to Watchmen.\nan interesting one was \"OH NO, ANOTHER REPUBLICAN HATING MOVIE\" . \nWow, what a facile, knee jerk mis-read!\n\nBy all means, pick apart \"V for Vendetta\" on political grounds, but \nWatchmen is operating at a philosophical level that is relevant to any \npolitical persuasion. They're human questions of how concepts like \nRevenge and War and the Power-to-destroy-ourselves affects our psyche \nand the world around us.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49BF4515.6080806@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T06:37:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Alan Moore", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Mar 16, 2009, at 10:06 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Alan Moore is or is not the author of 'From Hell' and 'V for Vendetta'?\n\nYes indeed Gene Wolfe's work is overtly political. I find it interesting\nthat politics is almost never discussed on this list. I would welcome a\ndiscussion of the politics of Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"V for Vendetta\" is much more politically charged than Watchmen, in that \n\"V for Vendetta\" is making a case for anarchism" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't go quite that far; V wants to get rid of *that* government, \nnot all government. VFV's more of a militia promotion to me." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<641948.78331.qm@web81401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-17T06:47:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree...too bad\nStill fun though...\n\nHey Mike...I get the show 3 hours early and am having a few peeps over....waddya think?\nGotta clear it witht eh Mrs first...hehehe\n\nGime a holler\n\\\n~S~\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Mon, 3/16/09, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, March 16, 2009, 10:46 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 9:12 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote:\nThat show jumped the shark at least a season ago. \"They have a\nplan...\" Nah, Ron Moore was just making it up as he went along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dang, watching this \"Last Frakking Special\" I think you're\nright. they didn't know where they were going." } ] }, { "message_id": "<03FEB8E1-A5CB-4C35-B788-FF0B30DD9AD3@goosemoon.org>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T06:54:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Alan Moore", "in_reply_to": "<49BF4515.6080806@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 11:37 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 10:06 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Alan Moore is or is not the author of 'From Hell' and 'V for \nVendetta'?\n\nYes indeed Gene Wolfe's work is overtly political. I find it \ninteresting\nthat politics is almost never discussed on this list. I would \nwelcome a\ndiscussion of the politics of Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"V for Vendetta\" is much more politically charged than Watchmen, in \nthat \"V for Vendetta\" is making a case for anarchism" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't go quite that far; V wants to get rid of *that* \ngovernment, not all government. VFV's more of a militia promotion to \nme." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the sequence where V **SPOILERS!** breaks down Evey with all \nthe mindgames isn't just about opposing the British Fascism of the \ncomic's alternate future, but about personal liberation from the cul- \nde-sacs society can push you down. He's trying to awaken her to an \nanarchistic taste of freedom. There are different sides to that \nanarchy, as are shown at the end when Evey says something about her \nmentor being the V of destruction, while she would be the one of \nrebuilding.\n\nAs with a lot of Moore's stuff, though, V's a disturbing and messed up \nfigure! I very much doubt that Moore wrote V or Rorschach with the \nhope that people would come away from a reading thinking, \"wow, I \nwanna be like those people\". They are the ones who dare to do what we \ndare not, but they're also insane, more like a maverick bomb than way \nof life.\n\nWhat do you mean about the militias? I'm not sure I get that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 3:29 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n Also, I hope no one ever tries to make a New Sun movie in 2.75 \nhours. How strange and confusing it would be. Like Watchmen has all \nthe trappings of Super Hero comic, New Sun has all the trappings of \nSword and Sworcery novel, yet neither are truly examples of the \nforms they seem to take on, and are instead quite strange beasts. \nThe marketing of both is misleading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, that's an interesting comparison -- both take a pulpy container \nand fill it with something more than we expect. What's the purpose of \nthis choice? Love of the genre? A chance to divert the charge these \nsettings and characters carry? A ready audience to be corrupted?\n\nn.p. Zappa, \"Pick Me, I'm Clean\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49BF7768.6000407@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T10:11:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Alan Moore", "in_reply_to": "<03FEB8E1-A5CB-4C35-B788-FF0B30DD9AD3@goosemoon.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Allan Anderson wrote:\nWhat do you mean about the militias? I'm not sure I get that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The entire \"a government should be afraid of its people\" idea, where the \npeople should be armed and ready to take back control of their country \nwhen the government oversteps its bounds and becomes a burden more than \na benefit.\nOur current militia movement takes justification in the @nd Amendment to \nthe US constitution as statements of the founding fathers like Thomas \nJefferson:\n * I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good \nthing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.\n o Letter to James Madison (January 30, 1787); referring to \nShays' Rebellion Lipscomb & Bergh ed. 6:65\n\n * God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a \nrebellion.... What country before ever existed a century and half \nwithout a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if \ntheir rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve \nthe spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them \nright as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost \nin a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to \ntime with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.\nLetter to William Stevens Smith (November 13, 1787), quoted in Padover's \nJefferson On Democracy" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11930.72.171.0.143.1237286160.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T10:36:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49BF7768.6000407@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a good opportunity to start the discussion that I have been\nwanting to have.\n\nA prominent feature of Wolfe's politics, which appears time and time again\nin his stories is his strong approval of the 2nd Amendment of the United\nStates constitution, which recognizes the inherent right of the people to\nkeep and bear arms, and his strong disapproval of the disarmement of the\ncitizenry.\n\nWolfe's readers are a diverse, and an international bunch, and I for one\nam curious to hear the views of the various literate and intelligent\nreaders who frequent this list upon this subject, here in the early 21st\ncentury, some 90 years into the international disarm-the-citizens campaign\nthat began after WWI.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Allan Anderson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What do you mean about the militias? I'm not sure I get that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The entire \"a government should be afraid of its people\" idea, where the\npeople should be armed and ready to take back control of their country\nwhen the government oversteps its bounds and becomes a burden more than\na benefit.\nOur current militia movement takes justification in the @nd Amendment to\nthe US constitution as statements of the founding fathers like Thomas\nJefferson:\n * I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good\nthing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.\n o Letter to James Madison (January 30, 1787); referring to\nShays' Rebellion Lipscomb & Bergh ed. 6:65\n\n * God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a\nrebellion.... What country before ever existed a century and half\nwithout a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if\ntheir rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve\nthe spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them\nright as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost\nin a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to\ntime with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.\nLetter to William Stevens Smith (November 13, 1787), quoted in Padover's\nJefferson On Democracy\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7D7361FF-F396-4C21-AB80-4B18585C708C@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T13:45:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<11930.72.171.0.143.1237286160.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 5:36 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nWolfe's readers are a diverse, and an international bunch, and I for \none\nam curious to hear the views of the various literate and intelligent\nreaders who frequent this list upon this subject, here in the early \n21st\ncentury, some 90 years into the international disarm-the-citizens \ncampaign\nthat began after WWI." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I myself am pretty much a Second Amendment fundamentalist. Guns are \nextraordinarily useful tools for putting holes in things a long way \naway. Like all powerful tools, they can cause great and unintended \nharm if misused or used carelessly. Making the tool unavailable to \nresponsible adults is not the solution to that problem. There's \nsomething about power and responsibility and werearachnids to be said \nhere.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903170724w1424e52cn7998812102dbee6b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T14:24:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<7D7361FF-F396-4C21-AB80-4B18585C708C@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess I'm a moderate conservative or libertarian on the issue. I think\nthe Second Amendment creates an individual right and that that individual\nright clearly isn't meant to cover every conceivable form of weapon. The\nproper balancing of those two might vary from state to state (or within\nmetropolitan areas) depending on the needs of the populace, but always\nwithin those obvious boundaries.\n\nBesides, banning handguns, a common proposal, doesn't seem workable to me.\nWe banned drugs, and that hasn't worked out too well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\n On Mar 17, 2009, at 5:36 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\nWolfe's readers are a diverse, and an international bunch, and I for one\nam curious to hear the views of the various literate and intelligent\nreaders who frequent this list upon this subject, here in the early 21st\ncentury, some 90 years into the international disarm-the-citizens campaign\nthat began after WWI.\n\n\nI myself am pretty much a Second Amendment fundamentalist. Guns are\nextraordinarily useful tools for putting holes in things a long way away.\n Like all powerful tools, they can cause great and unintended harm if\nmisused or used carelessly. Making the tool unavailable to responsible\nadults is not the solution to that problem. There's something about power\nand responsibility and werearachnids to be said here.\n\nAdam\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2B8C663FAC9D4D39A0D4521DABA89887@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T15:02:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903170724w1424e52cn7998812102dbee6b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess I'm a moderate conservative or libertarian on the issue.\nI think the Second Amendment creates an individual right and\nthat that individual right clearly isn't meant to cover every\nconceivable form of weapon. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would argue that the intent was self-evidently for it to cover every conceivable type of weapon. \n\nThe constant constitutional crisis the US finds itself in --not just for an armed populace but for school and religion issues and for medical procedures and out-of-control spending-- can be traced to the Supreme Court decisions in the 30s? obliterating the Enumerated Powers clause. Originally, the limitations on the regulation of arms only applied to the Federal government as did issues of free speech and the establishment of religion. Many towns in the Old West had total gun bans, just as some states had established churches supported with tax dollars. Since the Bill of Rights is now understood to be irrevocable by states and municipalities, we have unresolvable paradoxes. Many of our political discussions --including abortion and marijuana (medical and recreational)-- could be resolved with local and state elections if the USSC would merely dust of the Enumerated Powers and say that the Federal government doesn't have the right to do or regulate anything not explicitly declared in the US Constitution. But that would take away from the power of the Supreme Court, and Senators on the Judicial Committee would lose the opportunity to expose themselves on TV whenever there is a SC opening.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903170812t7633f227ne0d2a5790e396da7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T15:12:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<2B8C663FAC9D4D39A0D4521DABA89887@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James, we don't disagree. In my ideal (MacIntyrian, Tolkienesque, whatever)\nworld, we'd be people of the city-state. As it sits in today's political\nbalance, however, with all the compromises of history that have led us to\nthis point (including the cases you refer to and the Fourteenth Amendment),\nI think that DC v. Heller was just about on-target." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:02 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n I would argue that the intent was self-evidently for it to cover every\nconceivable type of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The constant constitutional crisis the US finds itself in --not just for an\narmed populace but for school and religion issues and for medical procedures\nand out-of-control spending-- can be traced to the Supreme Court decisions\nin the 30s? obliterating the Enumerated Powers clause. Originally, the\nlimitations on the regulation of arms only applied to the Federal government\nas did issues of free speech and the establishment of religion. Many towns\nin the Old West had total gun bans, just as some states had\nestablished churches supported with tax dollars. Since the Bill of Rights is\nnow understood to be irrevocable by states and municipalities, we have\nunresolvable paradoxes. Many of our political discussions --including\nabortion and marijuana (medical and recreational)-- could be resolved with\nlocal and state elections if the USSC would merely dust of the Enumerated\nPowers and say that the Federal government doesn't have the right to do\nor regulate anything not explicitly declared in the US Constitution. But\nthat would take away from the power of the Supreme Court, and Senators on\nthe Judicial Committee would lose the opportunity to expose themselves on TV\nwhenever there is a SC opening.\n\nJ\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6612.67.142.130.27.1237303208.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T15:20:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<2B8C663FAC9D4D39A0D4521DABA89887@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I guess I'm a moderate conservative or libertarian on the issue.\nI think the Second Amendment creates an individual right and\nthat that individual right clearly isn't meant to cover every\nconceivable form of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would argue that the intent was self-evidently for it to cover every\nconceivable type of weapon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, the most powerful weapons available in the eighteenth century were\nwarships, many of which were privately owned, as was much artillery in the\nsense of crew-served weapons.\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903170825q9eab45fseb339ff294446f2f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T15:25:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<6612.67.142.130.27.1237303208.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 8:20 AM, wrote:\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a common myth. In fact, the Second Amendment is the only one\nof the Ten that clearly states its purpose -- which is that a well-ordered\nmilitia is essential for \"security\" of the state. In other words, it isn't about\nopposing the government; it's about having the ability to repel invaders\non the spur of the moment.\n\nI myself am deeply conflicted about the Second Amendment. It seems\nclear to me that the free access to guns we have now is causing a\nhuge wave of homicides. But, while I have no desire to own a gun\nmyself, I insist on the *right* to own one.\n\n********\n\nMeanwhile, this is becoming less and less about Wolfe's politics and\nmore and more a discussion of our politics. Does anyone have any\nstrong sense of where Wolfe stands on the tarriff issue?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<35EF45C035F648438CB89586E5313EDA@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T15:26:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903170812t7633f227ne0d2a5790e396da7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James, we don't disagree.\nAs it sits in today's political balance, however, with all the compromises\nof history that have led us to this point\n(including the cases you refer to and the Fourteenth Amendment),\nI think that DC v. Heller was just about on-target." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to nit-pick, John, but the 14th amendment was an actual amendment to the constitution. It explicitly altered the rights of the states to make laws in very limited areas. It was possibly the last time we resolved a constitutional crisis \"by the rules\" (at the national level at least).\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903170830p1b74467cs4b308e535e7812e9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T15:30:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<35EF45C035F648438CB89586E5313EDA@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm well-acquainted with the Fourteenth Amendment, trust me. It's still a\nhistorical compromise that promoted a strong central government over the\nstates. Most people, including myself, would agree, I think, that it was\nnecessary and I agree with you that it is distinguishable from later\nexpansions of federal power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:26 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n >James, we don't disagree.\n >As it sits in today's political balance, however, with all the\ncompromises\nof history that have led us to this point\n(including the cases you refer to and the Fourteenth Amendment),\n >I think that DC v. Heller was just about on-target.\n\nNot to nit-pick, John, but the 14th amendment was an actual amendment to\nthe constitution. It explicitly altered the rights of the states to make\nlaws in very limited areas. It was possibly the last time we resolved a\nconstitutional crisis \"by the rules\" (at the national level at least).\n\nJ\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<964416.59898.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T15:31:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903170825q9eab45fseb339ff294446f2f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One more non-Wolfe point. I agree with Dan'l about the correct reading of the 2nd Amendment and always have.\n\nBut even if it were for us to defend ourselves from the government, it has always seemed odd to me to apply that argument in an age when the weapons available to a massive governmental body aren't available to private individuals. I mean, even if we all bonded together in a big militia with big automatic weapons, would we stand a chance against an air force, a navy with its increasingly sophisticated robotic drone technology, chemical/bio/nuclear weapons, etc. It's one thing to want a high powered gun in your home. But it seems ludicrous to me to argue about its use in defending yourself against a 21st century military machine.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 10:25:22 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 8:20 AM, wrote:\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a common myth. In fact, the Second Amendment is the only one\nof the Ten that clearly states its purpose -- which is that a well-ordered\nmilitia is essential for \"security\" of the state. In other words, it isn't about\nopposing the government; it's about having the ability to repel invaders\non the spur of the moment.\n\nI myself am deeply conflicted about the Second Amendment. It seems\nclear to me that the free access to guns we have now is causing a\nhuge wave of homicides. But, while I have no desire to own a gun\nmyself, I insist on the *right* to own one.\n\n********\n\nMeanwhile, this is becoming less and less about Wolfe's politics and\nmore and more a discussion of our politics. Does anyone have any\nstrong sense of where Wolfe stands on the tarriff issue?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<609D2162EB2D44C9AB6D5158A8CDA99E@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T15:46:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903170825q9eab45fseb339ff294446f2f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a common myth. In fact, the Second Amendment is the only one\nof the Ten that clearly states its purpose -- which is that a well-ordered\nmilitia is essential for \"security\" of the state." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find this to be the biggest straw-man in the whole debate on the 2nd \nAmendment. The amendment states:\n\"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, \nthe right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.\"\n\nThe first part (\"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security \nof a free State\") is a dependent, informing or justifying clause. The \n_independent_ clause which carries the mandate and provides the chosen \nsolution to the problem posed by first clause is not a bit ambiguous: \"The \nright of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.\" No \ndoubt, there are some heated arguments behind that defensive justification.\n\nFurthermore, the amendment grants this \"right\" to \"the people.\" To read this \namendment as pro-regulators like to would mean that the first amendment \n\"right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government \nfor a redress of grievances\" would only apply to the right of state \ngovernments to assemble and to make official statements to the Federal \ngovernment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In other words, it isn't about\nopposing the government; it's about having the ability to repel invaders\non the spur of the moment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could dredge up quotes from the Founders refuting this, but I'm sure you \nseen them before.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T15:58:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<11930.72.171.0.143.1237286160.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 3:36 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nA prominent feature of Wolfe's politics, which appears time and time \nagain\nin his stories is his strong approval of the 2nd Amendment of the \nUnited\nStates constitution, which recognizes the inherent right of the \npeople to\nkeep and bear arms, and his strong disapproval of the disarmement of \nthe\ncitizenry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm surely not as familiar with Wolfe's work as some of the rest of \nyou. But I'm having trouble coming up with examples from Wolfe's \nstories which relate directly or indirectly to the 2nd Amendment or to \nthe inherent virtues of weapon ownership.\n\nThere are certainly many times when, in the course of the adventure \nstory, that the hero wishes he had a weapon or is glad that she is \narmed. Certainly Severian would not be the same character without \nTerminus Est, nor Able without his skills as a warrior. But just as \noften I see weapons as negative or incomplete solutions, such as the \nwelding tool in \"The Death of Doctor Island\", which gives only the \nillusion of dominance. The \"useful tool\" goes to people's heads and \nbecomes a trap which distracts from a larger power (Severian's healing \nability, Able's magic Valhalla powers, Dr. Island's ability to \ndominate minds.)\n\nPerhaps there's a common thread of power and the honest assessment of \nwhat you can do when others have power over you. There's certainly a \nlot of weapon-based power differentials (Vodalus has the gun, the \nothers have axes.) But when I see the strong contrast in the New Sun \nof some people having energy weapons and others having blades, I don't \nthink Wolfe is saying, \"See, what a better world it would be if \neveryone had energy weapons.\" I see interesting ideas about the \ninevitable imbalances of personal power, and how it takes more than \nsuperior firepower to find a solution. Where is Wolfe stressing the \nimportance of personal weaponry as a necessary step to being able to \naddress these larger problems? Where does he talk about disarmament? \n(Maybe this is a Long Sun thing I will see when I read those?)\n\nMaybe you folks will be able to say, Allan, you've forgotten this bit, \nyou've misinterpreted this bit, you haven't read this bit. For \ninstance, I remember something (a bit fuzzily) from The Wizard Knight \nabout Berthold and some villagers standing up to some bandits. I also \nremember something about armed peasants being hopelessly outclassed by \nprofessional armsmen. Sorry, I'd have to go search a bit to get \nsomething more concrete here.\n\nWhat I see more of is just the conventions of adventure-story plot: \nthe hero, to differentiate him from the rest, sometimes has to take \nbold steps!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<804958.47485.qm@web63907.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T16:11:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Missed \"The Last Frakking Special\", if that was the name. Maybe it'll be on the DVD's when they are released. Amazon is already listing \"Season 4.5\".\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 1:46 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 9:12 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote:\nThat show jumped the shark at least a season ago. \"They have a\nplan...\" Nah, Ron Moore was just making it up as he went along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dang, watching this \"Last Frakking Special\" I think you're\nright. they didn't know where they were going." } ] }, { "message_id": "<322710.88948.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T16:25:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doggerel\n\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Allan Anderson wrote:\nFrom: Allan Anderson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:58 AM\n\n\n\nI'm surely not as familiar with Wolfe's work as some of the rest of\nyou. But I'm having trouble coming up with examples from Wolfe's stories\nwhich relate directly or indirectly to the 2nd Amendment or to the inherent\nvirtues of weapon ownership.\n\n\nWell, the most striking example I can think of is in On Blue's Waters, where it is strongly implied, if not explicitly stated, that Horn's possession of a slug gun is one of the things that has kept him from being forced into slavery on New Viron.\n\nAs for the Second Amendment and my thoughts on gun ownership, the wording of the amendment seems loose enough to admit some sort of gun control. However, gun control has repeatedly proven ineffective in a nation that is one of the world's leading arms manufacturers. It doesn't stop gun crimes and it infringes on the rights of individuals capable of making responsible decisions. In that vein, I'm also against seat belt laws and mandatory helmet laws (except for minors).\n\nDon\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T16:30:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Alan Moore", "in_reply_to": "<49BF7768.6000407@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, very interesting. I guess I could see that. Are those quotes \nstashed in V for Vendetta someplace, or are you saying that they apply \nand illustrate its points?\n\nI still find the themes of personal liberation more affecting and \ncentral, but I guess I'd be foolish to ignore the specific depicted \npolitical implications.\n\nAnd finally, to attempt to reconnect with the Battlestar bit:\n\n\"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're \nevil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to \nspread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you \ndidn't know that.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 3:11 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAllan Anderson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What do you mean about the militias? I'm not sure I get that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The entire \"a government should be afraid of its people\" idea, where \nthe people should be armed and ready to take back control of their \ncountry when the government oversteps its bounds and becomes a \nburden more than a benefit.\nOur current militia movement takes justification in the @nd \nAmendment to the US constitution as statements of the founding \nfathers like Thomas Jefferson:\n * I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good \nthing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the \nphysical.\n o Letter to James Madison (January 30, 1787); referring to \nShays' Rebellion Lipscomb & Bergh ed. 6:65\n\n * God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a \nrebellion.... What country before ever existed a century and half \nwithout a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if \ntheir rulers are not warned from time to time that their people \npreserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is \nto set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify \na few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be \nrefreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. \nIt is its natural manure.\nLetter to William Stevens Smith (November 13, 1787), quoted in \nPadover's Jefferson On Democracy\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T16:31:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm having trouble coming up with examples from Wolfe's stories which \nrelate directly or indirectly to the 2nd Amendment or to the inherent \nvirtues of weapon ownership." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Maybe this is a Long Sun thing I will see when I read those?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is positively so. I don't want offers spoilers, so I'll just say meet \nhere after you read Exodus from the Long Sun.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T16:38:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<804958.47485.qm@web63907.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Stuart Hamm [mailto:hammstu at sbcglobal.net]?\nHey Mike...I get the show 3 hours early and am having a few peeps over....waddya think?\nGotta clear it witht eh Mrs first...hehehe\n\nGime a holler\n\\\n~S~" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ha. thanks Stu. I'd have to clear it with teh Mrs, too. I can't leave her high and dry, we've watched this whole thing together. Very few pop-culture things we've thoroughly geeked out on together. And besides, someone is gonna have to be the heavy and tell our son that he's gonna have to wait til Sat morning for the season finale of Clone Wars, which is also on at 9pm fri.\n\n\noh yeah, you were saying you missed me stirring shit up on the list. I make one comment about Watchmen and there's activity all of a sudden. I don't even try to stir the shit and it gets stirred. guess i got that anti-midas touch.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T16:50:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Fred Kiesche [mailto:recursive_loop at yahoo.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Missed \"The Last Frakking Special\", if that was the name. Maybe it'll be on the DVD's when they are released. Amazon is already listing \"Season 4.5\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know, I was disappointed at the fact that Katie Sackhoff came across like a bimbo. Dang. What a wilter." } ] }, { "message_id": "<408034.10845.qm@web63903.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T16:57:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm...it appears from the last comment that you may have wanted to send this off-list...\n\n\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:38 PM\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Stuart Hamm [mailto:hammstu at sbcglobal.net]?\nHey Mike...I get the show 3 hours early and am having a few peeps\nover....waddya think?\nGotta clear it witht eh Mrs first...hehehe\n\nGime a holler\n\\\n~S~" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ha. thanks Stu. I'd have to clear it with teh Mrs, too. I can't leave\nher high and dry, we've watched this whole thing together. Very few\npop-culture things we've thoroughly geeked out on together. And besides,\nsomeone is gonna have to be the heavy and tell our son that he's gonna have\nto wait til Sat morning for the season finale of Clone Wars, which is also on at\n9pm fri.\n\n\noh yeah, you were saying you missed me stirring shit up on the list. I make one\ncomment about Watchmen and there's activity all of a sudden. I don't\neven try to stir the shit and it gets stirred. guess i got that anti-midas\ntouch.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<519897.88893.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-17T16:57:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Most of them seemed to be revealed as self absorbed LA actors...which they are\nMM sure looked goooooooooooooood\n\n\n“Skype?” stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 9:50 AM\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Fred Kiesche [mailto:recursive_loop at yahoo.com]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Missed \"The Last Frakking Special\", if that was the name. Maybe\nit'll be on the DVD's when they are released. Amazon is already listing\n\"Season 4.5\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know, I was disappointed at the fact that Katie Sackhoff came across like a\nbimbo. Dang. What a wilter." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:03:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<322710.88948.qm@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:25:49 -0700\nFrom: kingwukong at yahoo.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\n\n\n\n\nDoggerel\n\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Allan Anderson wrote:\nFrom: Allan Anderson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:58 AM\n\n\n\nI'm surely not as familiar with Wolfe's work as some of the rest of\nyou. But I'm having trouble coming up with examples from Wolfe's stories\nwhich relate directly or indirectly to the 2nd Amendment or to the inherent\nvirtues of weapon ownership.\n\n\nWell, the most striking example I can think of is in On Blue's Waters, where it is strongly implied, if not explicitly stated, that Horn's possession of a slug gun is one of the things that has kept him from being forced into slavery on New Viron.\n\nAs for the Second Amendment and my thoughts on gun ownership, the wording of the amendment seems loose enough to admit some sort of gun control. However, gun control has repeatedly proven ineffective in a nation that is one of the world's leading arms manufacturers. It doesn't stop gun crimes and it infringes on the rights of individuals capable of making responsible decisions. In that vein, I'm also against seat belt laws and mandatory helmet laws (except for minors).\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \n \nWell, beying an european, I'm going to abstain from commenting on the particulars of your constitution and on your (US) views of this matter. After all, the \"Wild West\" is too fresh on your mind and culture and it's probably normal that these matters raise certain \"passions\" among US citizens.\n \nAlthough I don't remember the books by heart, I frankly don't see much (from what I remember) in Wolfe's books to say without a doubt that he is a \"defender\" of the view that every citizen has the right to have guns. The world of Short Sun is a savage one (inhumi, cities attacking other cities, enslavement, etc) and it's normal that people would be using weapons for personal protection, and hence the particular book excerpt you gave us. On the same token if I was writting a fiction book on the Roman conquest of, say, Gaul I could certainly say that it was good that my heroe's Celtic tribe had weapons to defend itself from the Romans and that would not imply that as a 21th century european I defend the free use of weapons by everyone.\n \nJust my two cents.\n \nPedro" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4020.67.142.130.19.1237309435.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:03:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903170825q9eab45fseb339ff294446f2f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 8:20 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a common myth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a Big Lie, that you are repeating.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie\n\nThe debate recorded in 'The Federalist Papers' and 'The Anti-Federalist\nPapers', and usage of the term militia at the time clearly show the\nopposite of what you say. This lie has been refuted time and time again,\nbut like the proper Big Lie that it is, continues to be repeated.\n\nhttp://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/quotes/arms.html\nhttp://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1266\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " In fact, the Second Amendment is the only one\nof the Ten that clearly states its purpose -- which is that a well-ordered\nmilitia is essential for \"security\" of the state. In other words, it isn't\nabout opposing the government; it's about having the ability to repel\ninvaders on the spur of the moment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Secondarily. Its primary purpose is as I have stated, as my sources reflect.\n\nI note that you do not confute me, you merely state that I am wrong. For\nshame, Dan'l. Please do provide any evidence you might have to support\nyour position." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I myself am deeply conflicted about the Second Amendment. It seems\nclear to me that the free access to guns we have now is causing a\nhuge wave of homicides." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why? Because there have been many prominent and lurid stories in the news\nmedia?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " But, while I have no desire to own a gun\nmyself, I insist on the *right* to own one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What exactly does this mean? If you chose to exercise you right - let us\nassume that you needed to, that there were scary people after your family\nand the police had already informed you that there was nothng that you\ncould do - how hard would it be for you do to arm yourself without going\nout onto the black market?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meanwhile, this is becoming less and less about Wolfe's politics and\nmore and more a discussion of our politics. Does anyone have any\nstrong sense of where Wolfe stands on the tarriff issue?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He doesn't mention that prominently in almost every story. I would imagine\nthat it is less important to him than the right to keep and bear arms and\nthe right to be secure in the possession of one's property, both of which\nget mentioned frequently.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14368.67.142.130.19.1237309736.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:08:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are surely not as familiar with Wolfe's work as many of us, to the\nextent that you are saying silly, obviously wrong things. I'd advise you\nto go read the parts you haven't read and then come back: you can revive\nthe discussion if it is not still going on.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 3:36 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A prominent feature of Wolfe's politics, which appears time and time\nagain\nin his stories is his strong approval of the 2nd Amendment of the\nUnited\nStates constitution, which recognizes the inherent right of the\npeople to\nkeep and bear arms, and his strong disapproval of the disarmement of\nthe\ncitizenry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm surely not as familiar with Wolfe's work as some of the rest of\nyou. But I'm having trouble coming up with examples from Wolfe's\nstories which relate directly or indirectly to the 2nd Amendment or to\nthe inherent virtues of weapon ownership.\n\nThere are certainly many times when, in the course of the adventure\nstory, that the hero wishes he had a weapon or is glad that she is\narmed. Certainly Severian would not be the same character without\nTerminus Est, nor Able without his skills as a warrior. But just as\noften I see weapons as negative or incomplete solutions, such as the\nwelding tool in \"The Death of Doctor Island\", which gives only the\nillusion of dominance. The \"useful tool\" goes to people's heads and\nbecomes a trap which distracts from a larger power (Severian's healing\nability, Able's magic Valhalla powers, Dr. Island's ability to\ndominate minds.)\n\nPerhaps there's a common thread of power and the honest assessment of\nwhat you can do when others have power over you. There's certainly a\nlot of weapon-based power differentials (Vodalus has the gun, the\nothers have axes.) But when I see the strong contrast in the New Sun\nof some people having energy weapons and others having blades, I don't\nthink Wolfe is saying, \"See, what a better world it would be if\neveryone had energy weapons.\" I see interesting ideas about the\ninevitable imbalances of personal power, and how it takes more than\nsuperior firepower to find a solution. Where is Wolfe stressing the\nimportance of personal weaponry as a necessary step to being able to\naddress these larger problems? Where does he talk about disarmament?\n(Maybe this is a Long Sun thing I will see when I read those?)\n\nMaybe you folks will be able to say, Allan, you've forgotten this bit,\nyou've misinterpreted this bit, you haven't read this bit. For\ninstance, I remember something (a bit fuzzily) from The Wizard Knight\nabout Berthold and some villagers standing up to some bandits. I also\nremember something about armed peasants being hopelessly outclassed by\nprofessional armsmen. Sorry, I'd have to go search a bit to get\nsomething more concrete here.\n\nWhat I see more of is just the conventions of adventure-story plot:\nthe hero, to differentiate him from the rest, sometimes has to take\nbold steps!\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903171013x16accd77k3cfc388e4fc2923a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:13:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4020.67.142.130.19.1237309435.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 10:03 AM, wrote:\nThis is a Big Lie, that you are repeating." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm familiar with the concept of the Big Lie. The Bush administration\nused it often enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The debate recorded in 'The Federalist Papers' and 'The Anti-Federalist\nPapers', and usage of the term militia at the time clearly show the\nopposite of what you say. This lie has been refuted time and time again,\nbut like the proper Big Lie that it is, continues to be repeated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not talking about anything but what the Amendment says. It gives\na purpose. The given puropse is \"the security of the State.\" How it\ncame to be there is another question, but has no legal bearing on the\nquestion of what the Amendment says and means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I note that you do not confute me, you merely state that I am wrong. For\nshame, Dan'l. Please do provide any evidence you might have to support\nyour position." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My evidence is the Amendment itself. Why do you suppose that *no*\nother Amendment in the Bill of Rights has a clause justifying its presence?\nOr any evidence *in the Amendment itself* that confutes what the\nAmendment clearly says about its purpose?\n\nThe debates that led to its adoption are all well and good; but what\nwas actually adopted is very clear.\n\nNote that I do not make the false argument that the RKBA is a corporate\nrather than an individual right. It is clear that the right is granted to \"the\npeople\" rather than a corporate body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I myself am deeply conflicted about the Second Amendment. It seems\nclear to me that the free access to guns we have now is causing a\nhuge wave of homicides." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why? Because there have been many prominent and lurid stories in the news\nmedia?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. Because the homicide rate in this country is utterly out of hand." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?But, while I have no desire to own a gun\nmyself, I insist on the *right* to own one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What exactly does this mean?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The same kind of thing it might mean if I said that, while I do not choose\nto join in public protest marches, I insist on the *right* to do so. That I\ndo not choose to exercise certain rights for myself does not mean that\nI regard them as less important, or that I will not defend those rights for\nthose who do choose to exercise them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you chose to exercise you right - let us\nassume that you needed to, that there were scary people after your family\nand the police had already informed you that there was nothng that you\ncould do - how hard would it be for you do to arm yourself without going\nout onto the black market?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not interested in making imaginary suppositions. I don't live in a\nthriller." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Meanwhile, this is becoming less and less about Wolfe's politics and\nmore and more a discussion of our politics. Does anyone have any\nstrong sense of where Wolfe stands on the tarriff issue?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He doesn't mention that prominently in almost every story. I would imagine\nthat it is less important to him than the right to keep and bear arms and\nthe right to be secure in the possession of one's property, both of which\nget mentioned frequently." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The terriff issue\" was facetious; my point is that surely the topic of\nWolfe's politics is not exhausted by his opinion on the RKBA?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:15:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, beying an european, I'm going to abstain from commenting\non the particulars of your constitution and on your (US) views \nof this matter. After all, the \"Wild West\" is too fresh on your mind and\nculture and it's probably normal that these matters raise certain\n\"passions\" among US citizens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is such a quaint, European view of Americans. It's so cute!\n:-) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090317171634.ECD1048008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:16:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 17:03 17/03/2009, Pedro wrote:\nAlthough I don't remember the books by heart, I frankly don't see \nmuch (from what I remember) in Wolfe's books to say without a doubt \nthat he is a \"defender\" of the view that every citizen has the right \nto have guns. The world of Short Sun is a savage one (inhumi, cities \nattacking other cities, enslavement, etc) and it's normal that \npeople would be using weapons for personal protection, and hence the \nparticular book excerpt you gave us. On the same token if I was \nwritting a fiction book on the Roman conquest of, say, Gaul I could \ncertainly say that it was good that my heroe's Celtic tribe had \nweapons to defend itself from the Romans and that would not imply \nthat as a 21th century european I defend the free use of weapons by everyone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, it seems to me it's self-evidently unwise to try and deduce \nWolfe's own political opinions based on what he presents in his \nfiction. I don't think you have to be a frenzied post-modernist to \naccept that people may often write stories from viewpoints different \nto those they hold themselves.\n\nWe have plenty of interview material with Wolfe where he talks fairly \nopenly about some of his beliefs, so I don't think that adducing \narguments along the lines of \"X hero-like character is shown doing Y, \ntherefore Wolfe must support it\" is likely to be very worthwhile.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:17:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: crushtv at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 12:15:56 -0500\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, beying an european, I'm going to abstain from commenting\non the particulars of your constitution and on your (US) views\nof this matter. After all, the \"Wild West\" is too fresh on your mind and\nculture and it's probably normal that these matters raise certain\n\"passions\" among US citizens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is such a quaint, European view of Americans. It's so cute!\n:-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hum? I was in no way picking on you. Did it come up as such? If yes, than I appologise. I'm not a native english speaker." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:18:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thought I was getting off topic with Alan Moore...\n\nI guess Silk's act of giving away slug-guns to his militia rings in light of the Second Amendment, though I'd have to agree with (I think it was Alan) that the stories I've read deal more with a power imbalance due to weapons technology access, but hardly make a case for getting better weapons to the people.\n\nI'm also reminded of the Citadel. Typhon built it because he was afraid of his people, right? I forget where that is mentioned. The ruler had to barricade himself in.\n\n\nPersonally, 2nd amendment is tough for me. I'm against guns in general. They're for putting holes in people, and I'm generally against putting holes in people, but I do believe that we need to hold our government in check. It's a tough paradox. Prohibition of anything has rarely worked in this country, and, as someone else pointed out, in the 21st century, some handguns are not going to do a whit of good against A US Government gone amok. \n\nThere has been so much groundwork laid as to what to do with civil disobedience. Oliver North did a lot of work with that in the NSA. They've got plans for detention camps, and many reports that they actually exist. I'll tell you, during the depths of the W years, I was pretty convinced with every new act of treachery — sorry, I'll use their preferred explanation: \"incompetence\" — that with every new act of gross incompetence that they were almost egging a revolt on. Yet nothing happened. \n\nBut if there was a revolt, they would quash it so fast and could declare Martial Law, and then our second amendment rights would mean exactly squat. Where does that leave us? Better to act through diplomacy and laws, I suppose. And now we're back to Watchmen, because that leads me to the question of what we would become if we actually did revolt against our government.\n\nThis question is not a statement of my opinion, it's an open question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From supporting an armed insurrection, isn't the next step condoning terrorism? I mean, if we have the right to overthrow our government, and our government takes our guns, what do we have but molotov cocktails and such? Wouldn't we then be insurgents or terrorists?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And now that I've come full circle with tangents, I've got another stemming from this? Do any of you have kids totally into the new Star Wars I-III and Clone Wars? It troubles me. The inversion of which side the \"good guys\" are on is interesting, if problematic. My son LOVES those clone troopers. But those troopers were our bad guys (if you grew up with the old SW). There were ads for SW video games that said \"You're Boba Fett, hunting the galaxy's most vile insurgents\". Wait a minute! Boba Fett was a \"bad guy\". The \"insurgents\" were \"The Rebel Alliance\".\nAs an adult, I appreciate the political nuance, but, cheesy as it is, my heart breaks a little bit watching little kids side with the Republic/Empire.\n\n\n~Sonofwitz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 03:36 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\n\nThis is a good opportunity to start the discussion that I have been\nwanting to have.\n\nA prominent feature of Wolfe's politics, which appears time and time again\nin his stories is his strong approval of the 2nd Amendment of the United\nStates constitution, which recognizes the inherent right of the people to\nkeep and bear arms, and his strong disapproval of the disarmement of the\ncitizenry.\n\nWolfe's readers are a diverse, and an international bunch, and I for one\nam curious to hear the views of the various literate and intelligent\nreaders who frequent this list upon this subject, here in the early 21st\ncentury, some 90 years into the international disarm-the-citizens campaign\nthat began after WWI.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Allan Anderson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What do you mean about the militias? I'm not sure I get that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The entire \"a government should be afraid of its people\" idea, where the\npeople should be armed and ready to take back control of their country\nwhen the government oversteps its bounds and becomes a burden more than\na benefit.\nOur current militia movement takes justification in the @nd Amendment to\nthe US constitution as statements of the founding fathers like Thomas\nJefferson:\n * I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good\nthing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.\n o Letter to James Madison (January 30, 1787); referring to\nShays' Rebellion Lipscomb & Bergh ed. 6:65\n\n * God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a\nrebellion.... What country before ever existed a century and half\nwithout a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if\ntheir rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve\nthe spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them\nright as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost\nin a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to\ntime with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.\nLetter to William Stevens Smith (November 13, 1787), quoted in Padover's\nJefferson On Democracy\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4251.67.142.130.19.1237310330.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:18:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, beying an european, I'm going to abstain from commenting on the\nparticulars of your constitution and on your (US) views of this matter.\nAfter all, the \"Wild West\" is too fresh on your mind and culture and it's\nprobably normal that these matters raise certain \"passions\" among US\ncitizens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps you would like to comment on the process of disarmament as it has\ntaken place in Europe: of course you are aware that a hundred years ago\nanyone with sufficient funds could purchase a firearm in most European\ncountries with a minimum of fuss, and that currently legal use of firearms\nis restricted to the employees of the various governments. How did it get\nto be that way? Why did it it get to be that way? What was the process by\nwhich it got to be that way?\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:20:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<20090317171634.ECD1048008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 17:16:31 +0000\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nFrom: lists at ukg.co.uk\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\n\nAt 17:03 17/03/2009, Pedro wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Although I don't remember the books by heart, I frankly don't see\nmuch (from what I remember) in Wolfe's books to say without a doubt\nthat he is a \"defender\" of the view that every citizen has the right\nto have guns. The world of Short Sun is a savage one (inhumi, cities\nattacking other cities, enslavement, etc) and it's normal that\npeople would be using weapons for personal protection, and hence the\nparticular book excerpt you gave us. On the same token if I was\nwritting a fiction book on the Roman conquest of, say, Gaul I could\ncertainly say that it was good that my heroe's Celtic tribe had\nweapons to defend itself from the Romans and that would not imply\nthat as a 21th century european I defend the free use of weapons by everyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, it seems to me it's self-evidently unwise to try and deduce\nWolfe's own political opinions based on what he presents in his\nfiction. I don't think you have to be a frenzied post-modernist to\naccept that people may often write stories from viewpoints different\nto those they hold themselves.\n\nWe have plenty of interview material with Wolfe where he talks fairly\nopenly about some of his beliefs, so I don't think that adducing\narguments along the lines of \"X hero-like character is shown doing Y,\ntherefore Wolfe must support it\" is likely to be very worthwhile.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, thats precisely my view on this discussion. The examples given so far from the books are, in my opinion, both weak and irrelevant to be used to ascertain Wolfe's real world political views." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:21:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<20090317171634.ECD1048008@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 12:16 PM, Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:\nWe have plenty of interview material with Wolfe where he talks \nfairly openly about some of his beliefs, so I don't think that \nadducing arguments along the lines of \"X hero-like character is \nshown doing Y, therefore Wolfe must support it\" is likely to be very \nworthwhile." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awwww.\n\nI was going to get all excited that Gene Wolfe says it's cool to \ntorture people to impress the ladies. Gotcher Two Apricots right \nhere....\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:27:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, beying an european, I'm going to abstain from commenting\non the particulars of your constitution and on your (US) views\nof this matter. After all, the \"Wild West\" is too fresh on your mind and\nculture and it's probably normal that these matters raise certain\n\"passions\" among US citizens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is such a quaint, European view of Americans. It's so cute!\n:-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hum? I was in no way picking on you.\nDid it come up as such? If yes, than I appologise.\nI'm not a native english speaker." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely no offense taken. And no derogatory response intended (no serious \none anyway). It's just your comment had so many European charming \npreconceptions about Americans. Imagine if the some neighborhood kid assumed \nyou were a member of Hell's Angels because you wear a leather jacket when \nyou ride your motorcycle. It's like that.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:39:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4251.67.142.130.19.1237310330.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 13:18:50 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\n\nPedro writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, beying an european, I'm going to abstain from commenting on the\nparticulars of your constitution and on your (US) views of this matter.\nAfter all, the \"Wild West\" is too fresh on your mind and culture and it's\nprobably normal that these matters raise certain \"passions\" among US\ncitizens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps you would like to comment on the process of disarmament as it has\ntaken place in Europe: of course you are aware that a hundred years ago\nanyone with sufficient funds could purchase a firearm in most European\ncountries with a minimum of fuss, and that currently legal use of firearms\nis restricted to the employees of the various governments. How did it get\nto be that way? Why did it it get to be that way? What was the process by\nwhich it got to be that way?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know. It's not a topic I ever researched. What I can say is that for us this question is pretty much mute. We don't have the discussions you have regarding this matter. It's something that is widely accepted. When I comment on the \"Wild West\" thing I mean that the state of affairs on the US in the 19th century was quite a different one from Europe. The world portrayed on Short Sun has more similarities to 19th US than Europe (generaly speaking of course).\n \nSome things you mentioned:\n \n\"a hundred years ago\nanyone with sufficient funds could purchase a firearm in most European\ncountries with a minimum of fuss\"\n \nThere were some \"unspoken\" rules, I beleive. For the most part only the wealthy, the \"gentleman\", would have firearms without drawing attention from autorities. A \"nobody\" with a weapon would only get it randomly confiscated by autorities no matter if he actually bought it or not. It wasn't exactely the same situation as in the US, were pretty much everyone could use one. I may be wrong though, so maybe someone here can elaborate on this topic.\n \nAnyway, the \"Wild West\" is too imbeded, it seems to me, on the minds of the Americans. That's normal. Plus, there's the constitution. The conquest of the vast and wild frontier, frontier life, and the inerent dangers of such a setting, all this was pretty different from the european experience in the 19th century. I think this is something, together with your constitution, that is still pretty much alive in your minds. It generates passions regarding the whole \"guns or no guns\" issues that are completely alien to europeans.\n \nIf I'm wrong please correct me.\n \n \n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:40:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "while we're getting all serious about the second amendment,\nsteer yourself to youtube and check my man Weird Al's song, Trigger Happy, one of his best originals.\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMNWK3i8IV4\n\ngreat stuff.\nvideo is just some fan made accompaniment.\n\n\n(ok, I'll admit it. I'm a serious geek for Weird Al)\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:41:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: crushtv at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 12:27:30 -0500\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, beying an european, I'm going to abstain from commenting\non the particulars of your constitution and on your (US) views\nof this matter. After all, the \"Wild West\" is too fresh on your mind and\nculture and it's probably normal that these matters raise certain\n\"passions\" among US citizens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is such a quaint, European view of Americans. It's so cute!\n:-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hum? I was in no way picking on you.\nDid it come up as such? If yes, than I appologise.\nI'm not a native english speaker." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely no offense taken. And no derogatory response intended (no serious\none anyway). It's just your comment had so many European charming\npreconceptions about Americans. Imagine if the some neighborhood kid assumed\nyou were a member of Hell's Angels because you wear a leather jacket when\nyou ride your motorcycle. It's like that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL. Point taken. \n \nAnyway, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:43:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, the \"Wild West\" is too imbeded, it seems to me, on the minds of the Americans. That's normal. Plus, there's the constitution. The conquest of the vast and wild frontier, frontier life, and the inerent dangers of such a setting, all this was pretty different from the european experience in the 19th century. I think this is something, together with your constitution, that is still pretty much alive in your minds. It generates passions regarding the whole \"guns or no guns\" issues that are completely alien to europeans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's how I took your post, and I thought it was an interesting insight. I didn't take it as a dis on Americans. Of course, not all of our families were even here during the wild west, but it's suffused into the culture, for sure.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:45:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 17:43:25 +0000\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, the \"Wild West\" is too imbeded, it seems to me, on the minds of the Americans. That's normal. Plus, there's the constitution. The conquest of the vast and wild frontier, frontier life, and the inerent dangers of such a setting, all this was pretty different from the european experience in the 19th century. I think this is something, together with your constitution, that is still pretty much alive in your minds. It generates passions regarding the whole \"guns or no guns\" issues that are completely alien to europeans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's how I took your post, and I thought it was an interesting insight. I didn't take it as a dis on Americans. Of course, not all of our families were even here during the wild west, but it's suffused into the culture, for sure.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good that someone got what I was trying to say. Of course, if my views are \"correct\" or not is something else entirely and only you can answer (and enlighten me) in the process." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T17:49:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<519897.88893.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummm...it appears from the last comment that you may have wanted to send this off-list..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "nah.\n\nbut maybe I should have.\nI've been accused of stirring the shit here before. probably won't be the last time. \n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<38216.1237315427@speakeasy.net>", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2009-03-17T18:43:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Tue Mar 17 9:31 , crushtv at gmail.com sent:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm having trouble coming up with examples from Wolfe's stories which relate\ndirectly or indirectly to the 2nd Amendment or to the inherent virtues of weapon\nownership." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Maybe this is a Long Sun thing I will see when I read those?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is positively so. I don't want offers spoilers, so I'll just say meet here\nafter you read Exodus from the Long Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, thank you James. I'll look for that when I get there.\n\nOn Tue Mar 17 10:08 , brunians at brunians.org sent:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are surely not as familiar with Wolfe's work as many of us, to the\nextent that you are saying silly, obviously wrong things. I'd advise you\nto go read the parts you haven't read and then come back: you can revive\nthe discussion if it is not still going on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tried to bring up specific references to the text, which I think is the best\nstarting place to discuss someone's work. If you think I'm wrong, can you return\nthe favor? The setting of an enclosed colony ship and what happens after it lands\ndo seem rife with consequences of personal arms and disarmament. But you've said\n\"prominently in almost every story,\" and I don't see that.\n\nIf you'd rather just talk about gun politics with little reference to Gene\nWolfe's writing, maybe you should say so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 3:36 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A prominent feature of Wolfe's politics, which appears time and time\nagain\nin his stories is his strong approval of the 2nd Amendment of the\nUnited\nStates constitution, which recognizes the inherent right of the\npeople to\nkeep and bear arms, and his strong disapproval of the disarmement of\nthe\ncitizenry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm surely not as familiar with Wolfe's work as some of the rest of\nyou. But I'm having trouble coming up with examples from Wolfe's\nstories which relate directly or indirectly to the 2nd Amendment or to\nthe inherent virtues of weapon ownership.\n\nThere are certainly many times when, in the course of the adventure\nstory, that the hero wishes he had a weapon or is glad that she is\narmed. Certainly Severian would not be the same character without\nTerminus Est, nor Able without his skills as a warrior. But just as\noften I see weapons as negative or incomplete solutions, such as the\nwelding tool in \"The Death of Doctor Island\", which gives only the\nillusion of dominance. The \"useful tool\" goes to people's heads and\nbecomes a trap which distracts from a larger power (Severian's healing\nability, Able's magic Valhalla powers, Dr. Island's ability to\ndominate minds.)\n\nPerhaps there's a common thread of power and the honest assessment of\nwhat you can do when others have power over you. There's certainly a\nlot of weapon-based power differentials (Vodalus has the gun, the\nothers have axes.) But when I see the strong contrast in the New Sun\nof some people having energy weapons and others having blades, I don't\nthink Wolfe is saying, \"See, what a better world it would be if\neveryone had energy weapons.\" I see interesting ideas about the\ninevitable imbalances of personal power, and how it takes more than\nsuperior firepower to find a solution. Where is Wolfe stressing the\nimportance of personal weaponry as a necessary step to being able to\naddress these larger problems? Where does he talk about disarmament?\n(Maybe this is a Long Sun thing I will see when I read those?)\n\nMaybe you folks will be able to say, Allan, you've forgotten this bit,\nyou've misinterpreted this bit, you haven't read this bit. For\ninstance, I remember something (a bit fuzzily) from The Wizard Knight\nabout Berthold and some villagers standing up to some bandits. I also\nremember something about armed peasants being hopelessly outclassed by\nprofessional armsmen. Sorry, I'd have to go search a bit to get\nsomething more concrete here.\n\nWhat I see more of is just the conventions of adventure-story plot:\nthe hero, to differentiate him from the rest, sometimes has to take\nbold steps!\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T18:48:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thought I was getting off topic with Alan Moore...\n\nI guess Silk's act of giving away slug-guns to his militia rings in light of the Second Amendment, though I'd have to agree with (I think it was Alan) that the stories I've read deal more with a power imbalance due to weapons technology access, but hardly make a case for getting better weapons to the people.\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have any kind of problem with this sort of example, and there are plenty of them in Wolfe's work. He has a belief, and he doesn't argue it to me (as the reader) or even necessarily try to persuade me; he portrays a situation in which that belief is relevant, and if the writing is well done the truth (or lack thereof) shows through on its own. Thing is, I think the same when it comes to Moore.\n\nWhat I would expect, though, given brunians other comments is that he would complain about Wolfe being a whiny, bitter anarchist who doesn't like powerful governments because they've got bad parts in them.\n\nIt's a tough world, after all." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9704374D-F875-4146-A13F-AB76864D265F@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-03-17T22:17:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903170724w1424e52cn7998812102dbee6b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 10:24 AM, John Watkins wrote:\n The proper balancing of those two might vary from state to state \n(or within metropolitan areas) depending on the needs of the \npopulace, but always within those obvious boundaries." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with you on this. Not too many folk realize that most small \ntowns in the 'wild west', the ones all those tv shows were modeled \non, required the temporary confiscation of weaponry upon entering the \ncity limits. You got your guns back when you rode on out.\n\nSteven Bowen\nhttp://bowenfinearts.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<230283.8711.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T00:11:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remind me to tell about when I auditiomed for Wierd Al sometime...\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:40 AM\n\nwhile we're getting all serious about the second amendment,\nsteer yourself to youtube and check my man Weird Al's song, Trigger Happy,\none of his best originals.\n\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMNWK3i8IV4\n\ngreat stuff.\nvideo is just some fan made accompaniment.\n\n\n(ok, I'll admit it. I'm a serious geek for Weird Al)\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2849.67.142.130.47.1237335743.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T00:22:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, beying an european, I'm going to abstain from commenting on the\nparticulars of your constitution and on your (US) views of this matter.\nAfter all, the \"Wild West\" is too fresh on your mind and culture and\nit's probably normal that these matters raise certain \"passions\"\namong US citizens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps you would like to comment on the process of disarmament as it\nhas taken place in Europe: of course you are aware that a hundred years\nago anyone with sufficient funds could purchase a firearm in most\nEuropean countries with a minimum of fuss, and that currently legal use\nof firearms is restricted to the employees of the various governments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How did it get to be that way?\nWhy did it it get to be that way?\nWhat was the process by which it got to be that way?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know. It's not a topic I ever researched." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sort of amazed that you didn't learn about it in school." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " What I can say is that\nfor us this question is pretty much mute. We don't have the discussions\nyou have regarding this matter. It's something that is widely accepted." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Considering the historical frequency with which European governments tend\nto massacre the citizenry, domestic and foreign or portions thereof, I\ndon't know if I would feel so blase about it as you folks mostly do seem\nto." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When I comment on the \"Wild West\" thing I mean that the state of affairs\non the US in the 19th century was quite a different one from Europe. The\nworld portrayed on Short Sun has more similarities to 19th US than Europe\n(generaly speaking of course)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. I don't think it is all that relevant, but sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some things you mentioned:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"a hundred years ago\nanyone with sufficient funds could purchase a firearm in most European\ncountries with a minimum of fuss\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There were some \"unspoken\" rules, I beleive. For the most part only the\nwealthy, the \"gentleman\", would have firearms without drawing attention\nfrom autorities. A \"nobody\" with a weapon would only get it randomly\nconfiscated by autorities no matter if he actually bought it or not. It\nwasn't exactely the same situation as in the US, were pretty much everyone\ncould use one. I may be wrong though, so maybe someone here can elaborate\non this topic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It depends on the country, in some places it was as you describe. In most\nplaces it was not. The thing is that decent weapons were sort of pricey,\nand most poor people were poor. When the working classes started to be\nable to afford decent weapons is when there started to be, for some\nreason, a movement for gun control." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, the \"Wild West\" is too imbeded, it seems to me, on the minds of\nthe Americans. That's normal. Plus, there's the constitution. The conquest\nof the vast and wild frontier, frontier life, and the inerent dangers of\nsuch a setting, all this was pretty different from the european experience\nin the 19th century. I think this is something, together with your\nconstitution, that is still pretty much alive in your minds. It generates\npassions regarding the whole \"guns or no guns\" issues that are completely\nalien to europeans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I'm wrong please correct me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe you are mistaken, though I think honestly mistaken.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7304.67.142.130.47.1237336270.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T00:31:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<38216.1237315427@speakeasy.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " But you've said\n\"prominently in almost every story,\" and I don't see that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My apologies: Wolfe's pro-gun bias is so clear to me that I did not\nanticipate that so many people would question its existence. I will admit\nthat 'featured prominently in almost every story' is an exagerration: 'it\nis a recurring theme' is more accurate.\n\nI find that I need to go through my GW short-story collections and pick\nout some examples. I should do this this evening.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8955.67.142.130.47.1237336657.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T00:37:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I would expect, though, given brunians other comments is that he\nwould complain about Wolfe being a whiny, bitter anarchist who doesn't\nlike powerful governments because they've got bad parts in them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, Wolfe is a well-spoken and calm anarchist who accepts the existence of\nreality and tries to work within the contraints given." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a tough world, after all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something that Korean War veterans are inherently better equipped to\nunderstand than English hippies.\n\nIn my opinion, anyway. Your mileage may vary.\n\nI should say that I enjoy Moore's work. I don't want y'all to get the\nwrong impression.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C043D4.6000403@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T00:44:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<964416.59898.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\nOne more non-Wolfe point. I agree with Dan'l about the correct reading of the 2nd Amendment and always have.\n\nBut even if it were for us to defend ourselves from the government,\nit has always seemed odd to me to apply that argument in an age when\nthe weapons available to a massive governmental body aren't available\nto private individuals. I mean, even if we all bonded together in a\nbig militia with big automatic weapons, would we stand a chance\nagainst an air force, a navy with its increasingly sophisticated\nrobotic drone technology, chemical/bio/nuclear weapons, etc. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably not, but there's no danger of a united militia, and equally \nlittle danger of the armed forces uniting behind a commander in chief \nwho would advocate nuking or anthraxing American soil. They might get \naway with gassing under martial law, but there's no practical way to \ndefend all arms of the federal government from anyone who might take up \narms against them.\n\nThe combined armed forces can't prevent popular militias from doing away \nwith most of the federal marshals, BATF, DEA, FBI, and other offensive \nfederal assets in the field. There's also the question of how to pay to \nkeep the armed forces in supply and un-sabotaged during a civil war." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0441B.5010204@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T00:45:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<609D2162EB2D44C9AB6D5158A8CDA99E@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nIn other words, it isn't about\nopposing the government; it's about having the ability to repel invaders\non the spur of the moment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I could dredge up quotes from the Founders refuting this, but I'm sure \nyou seen them before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know he has, because I just posted some." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10833.67.142.130.47.1237337336.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T00:48:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<9704374D-F875-4146-A13F-AB76864D265F@comcast.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 10:24 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " The proper balancing of those two might vary from state to state\n(or within metropolitan areas) depending on the needs of the\npopulace, but always within those obvious boundaries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm with you on this. Not too many folk realize that most small\ntowns in the 'wild west', the ones all those tv shows were modeled\non, required the temporary confiscation of weaponry upon entering the\ncity limits. You got your guns back when you rode on out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cite. I know of one instance where this happened, in Tombstone AZ, where\nit was pretty blatantly enforced against one of the factions vying for\ncontrol of the town, and was directly tied to an huge surge in the murder\nrate. What other examples do you have? I don't necessarily dispute that\nthere were some, but I'd like to see some evidence.\n\nClint Eastwood gives an interesting example of a town with gun control in\nhis great movie 'The Unforgiven', which really everyone should see. If you\nhave not seen it, run don't walk.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0456C.1020607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T00:50:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Alan Moore", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Allan Anderson wrote:\nAh, very interesting. I guess I could see that. Are those quotes stashed \nin V for Vendetta someplace, or are you saying that they apply and \nillustrate its points?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They apply and illustrate. V and the American Founding Fathers both \nwanted to empower the governed to restrain and overthrow it as \nnecessary, not to remove it for all time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12702.67.142.130.47.1237337634.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T00:53:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0441B.5010204@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In other words, it isn't about\nopposing the government; it's about having the ability to repel\ninvaders on the spur of the moment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I could dredge up quotes from the Founders refuting this, but I'm sure\nyou seen them before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know he has, because I just posted some." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did too, but he showed no sign of having read them.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<404335.12840.qm@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T02:05:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As someone who lives in the Wild West, I gotta say it ain't all it's cracked up to be. They say an armed society is a polite society, but mostly it's just a belligerently overconfident society.\n\nDon\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Son of Witz wrote:\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:43 AM\nAnyway, the \"Wild West\" is too imbeded, it\nseems to me, on the minds of the Americans. That's\nnormal. Plus, there's the constitution. The conquest of\nthe vast and wild frontier, frontier life, and the inerent\ndangers of such a setting, all this was pretty different\nfrom the european experience in the 19th century. I think\nthis is something, together with your constitution, that is\nstill pretty much alive in your minds. It generates passions\nregarding the whole \"guns or no guns\" issues that\nare completely alien to europeans.\n\n\nThat's how I took your post, and I thought it was an\ninteresting insight. I didn't take it as a dis on\nAmericans. Of course, not all of our families were even\nhere during the wild west, but it's suffused into the\nculture, for sure.\n\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2E273181-8732-431D-B8AB-D8996F6B632C@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "Steven", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T02:09:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<10833.67.142.130.47.1237337336.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You ask me to cite and I don't have the facts at my command. It \nseems to me I read a book within the past decade or so that sought to \nrefute another book's anti-gun re-write of history that claimed the \nuse of firearms in Revolutionary America had been vastly magnified \nand mythologized in the popular culture. And there was some mention \nof the 19th century west as well. But I can't give you author or \ntitle, sorry. Maybe someone else's memory is jogged?\n\nRe Wolfe's personal opinions as reflected in his work: I think it's \nclear enough that the man is very conservatively minded, more so as \nhe's gotten older. The crack in Pirate Freedom about the Catholic \npedophilia scandal being inflated from more 'understandable' \nadolescent-centered incidents struck me as a blot on that text as a \nwhole though. And a personal affront to my sensibilities, though I \nsympathize with his politics in general." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 8:48 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nOn Mar 17, 2009, at 10:24 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " The proper balancing of those two might vary from state to state\n(or within metropolitan areas) depending on the needs of the\npopulace, but always within those obvious boundaries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm with you on this. Not too many folk realize that most small\ntowns in the 'wild west', the ones all those tv shows were modeled\non, required the temporary confiscation of weaponry upon entering the\ncity limits. You got your guns back when you rode on out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cite. I know of one instance where this happened, in Tombstone AZ, \nwhere\nit was pretty blatantly enforced against one of the factions vying for\ncontrol of the town, and was directly tied to an huge surge in the \nmurder\nrate. What other examples do you have? I don't necessarily dispute \nthat\nthere were some, but I'd like to see some evidence.\n\nClint Eastwood gives an interesting example of a town with gun \ncontrol in\nhis great movie 'The Unforgiven', which really everyone should see. \nIf you\nhave not seen it, run don't walk.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<355245.30897.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T02:24:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<404335.12840.qm@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don Doggett wrote:\nAs someone who lives in the Wild West, I gotta say it ain't all it's\ncracked up to be. They say an armed society is a polite society, but\nmostly it's just a\nbelligerently overconfident society." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In general, I'd agree, at least on the idea that you should look at the reasons a society values guns rather than the guns themselves. But I think that's actually our problem when talking about guns: we exaggerate their meaning.\n\n\nI’ll admit that I’m not personally a big fan of guns. That\nsaid, I don’t think that the mere presence of a weapon itself makes you more\ninclined to use them. I mean, I could grab a lethal knife from just about any\nbuilding or house I wander in to, but, even in my angriest moments, I’ve never\nfelt inclined to.\n \nWhat interests me more is the culture that has grown up (in\nAmerica, I suppose I should say) around the gun debate. It seems that we’ve\nbeen forced to take sides as if we’re for arming every able-bodied citizen to\nprotect us from the unwashed masses or that we have to be labeled na ve pacifists\nwho blind themselves to potential dangers. What bothers me most is that we live\nin a culture that either demonizes or romanticizes guns both of which are\nequally dangerous in my view.\n \nThe pro-gun side thinks that too much rides on our ability\nto have any kind of gun we want, and so they’re pushed into unreasonable\npositions of claiming that semi-automatic weapons are in fact for sport. Of\ncourse you can use them that way, but that’s not their intent. Furthermore,\nthey end up tacking on a rhetoric of both personal and political freedom to a\npersonal weapon that quickly becomes hyperbolic. In much of the reasoning, a\nsincere worry that easy access to powerful weapons could lead to quicker violence\nbecomes a sign of anti-liberty, which of course is ridiculous.\n \nBut on the other side, you get the anti-gun freaks who\nrefuse to recognize that it’s not the tool but the sociological and\npsychological conditions that lead to violence. Guns become a distraction from\nthe real causes of violence like poverty or urban living conditions. So the\nprincipled pacifists end up wasting a lot of breath trying to solve a problem with\nthe wrong tools.\n \nGuns have become symbols of other issues which, in the\nprocess, makes it harder to adequately deal with their own very real and\npowerful nature as dangerous but also useful tools. We end up choosing sides on\nthe issue based on rhetoric and symbolism instead of taking a more practical\nstance towards it. And if we do try to be practical, we’re often accused *by\nboth sides* of not understanding the true depth of the problem as a challenge to\na fundamental right (to liberty or safety). But, as I said before, either\nchoice is hyperbole.\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: don doggett \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:05:00 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\n\n\nAs someone who lives in the Wild West, I gotta say it ain't all it's cracked up to be. They say an armed society is a polite society, but mostly it's just a belligerently overconfident society.\n\nDon\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Son of Witz wrote:\nFrom: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:43 AM\nAnyway, the \"Wild West\" is too imbeded, it\nseems to me, on the minds of the Americans. That's\nnormal. Plus, there's the constitution. The conquest of\nthe vast and wild frontier, frontier life, and the inerent\ndangers of such a setting, all this was pretty different\nfrom the european experience in the 19th century. I think\nthis is something, together with your constitution, that is\nstill pretty much alive in your minds. It generates passions\nregarding the whole \"guns or no guns\" issues that\nare completely alien to europeans.\n\n\nThat's how I took your post, and I thought it was an\ninteresting insight. I didn't take it as a dis on\nAmericans. Of course, not all of our families were even\nhere during the wild west, but it's suffused into the\nculture, for sure.\n\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2009-03-18T02:29:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<2E273181-8732-431D-B8AB-D8996F6B632C@comcast.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 17 Mar 2009, Steven wrote:\nRe Wolfe's personal opinions as reflected in his work: I think it's clear \nenough that the man is very conservatively minded, more so as he's gotten \nolder. The crack in Pirate Freedom about the Catholic pedophilia scandal \nbeing inflated from more 'understandable' adolescent-centered incidents \nstruck me as a blot on that text as a whole though. And a personal affront \nto my sensibilities, though I sympathize with his politics in general." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, given that the remark is made by a maximally \"bad priest\", I suspect \nwe might take it with a grain of salt as representing GW's POV. But all \nhis worlds seem singularly lacking in civic virtues, as opposed to \nindividual virtue.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T02:47:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<7304.67.142.130.47.1237336270.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's certainly safe to say that it appears in a large number of them, and the times it comes up in the longer works generally give a pretty unambiguous picture. Although interestingly he passes over it rather lightly in BotNS. The Autarch strictly controls what weaponry is available to the citizenry, and for pretty direct reasons. Severian is fairly unconcerned by it, though - perhaps in part because he is the Autarch at the time they're being written." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:31:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: rubel at goosemoon.org\nCC: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " But you've said\n\"prominently in almost every story,\" and I don't see that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My apologies: Wolfe's pro-gun bias is so clear to me that I did not\nanticipate that so many people would question its existence. I will admit\nthat 'featured prominently in almost every story' is an exagerration: 'it\nis a recurring theme' is more accurate.\n\nI find that I need to go through my GW short-story collections and pick\nout some examples. I should do this this evening.\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<834305.96821.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T02:57:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems like Silk is a good place to get at this. Here's a man who's horrified at the thought of doing any kind of wrong. And yet he readily and willingly uses and even trains with the most powerful weapons he can get his hands on (or at least the most sufficient for his purposes) when it becomes necessary for a more important purpose.\n\nSilk's is a position I'd like to think Wolfe has: weapons *themselves* are neither good nor bad. They can be horrible when used irresponsibly, and Silk is at times horrified by the azoth even when he loves it for being Hyacinth's. But they can also be necessary and even thoroughly good. Look at the male chem soldiers, for example, who are weapons-become-\"human.\" Like people, they're good when they do good and evil when they do evil.\n\nI don't get the sense that Wolfe addresses the legal question directly, as if he's intentionally put some commentary on the 2nd Amendment in his work. Rather, like most of his moral pronouncemets, there's always a difficulty in figuring out how a categorical Good, which is present, gets manifested in a fallen, complicated world. (On my reading, at least.) The legality of dangerous weapons would be just another place to see the difficulty of aligning a moral imperative with practical measures, which seems to me one of Wolfe's ongoing concerns.\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: Chris P \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:47:36 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\n\n It's certainly safe to say that it appears in a large number of them, and the times it comes up in the longer works generally give a pretty unambiguous picture. Although interestingly he passes over it rather lightly in BotNS. The Autarch strictly controls what weaponry is available to the citizenry, and for pretty direct reasons. Severian is fairly unconcerned by it, though - perhaps in part because he is the Autarch at the time they're being written." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:31:10 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: rubel at goosemoon.org\nCC: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " But you've said\n\"prominently in almost every story,\" and I don't see that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My apologies: Wolfe's pro-gun bias is so clear to me that I did not\nanticipate that so many people would question its existence. I will admit\nthat 'featured prominently in almost every story' is an exagerration: 'it\nis a recurring theme' is more accurate.\n\nI find that I need to go through my GW short-story collections and pick\nout some examples. I should do this this evening.\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T03:00:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<2849.67.142.130.47.1237335743.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:22:23 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, beying an european, I'm going to abstain from commenting on the\nparticulars of your constitution and on your (US) views of this matter.\nAfter all, the \"Wild West\" is too fresh on your mind and culture and\nit's probably normal that these matters raise certain \"passions\"\namong US citizens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Perhaps you would like to comment on the process of disarmament as it\nhas taken place in Europe: of course you are aware that a hundred years\nago anyone with sufficient funds could purchase a firearm in most\nEuropean countries with a minimum of fuss, and that currently legal use\nof firearms is restricted to the employees of the various governments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How did it get to be that way?\nWhy did it it get to be that way?\nWhat was the process by which it got to be that way?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know. It's not a topic I ever researched." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sort of amazed that you didn't learn about it in school." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \n \nAs I stated before, there was no clear, \"general disarmament\" in Western and Northern Europe like you seem to imply. If it was, and you seem convinced of it, please enlighten me. As I said before: \n \n\"There were some \"unspoken\" rules, I beleive. For the most part only the wealthy, the \"gentleman\", would have firearms without drawing attention from autorities. A \"nobody\" with a weapon would only get it randomly confiscated by autorities no matter if he actually bought it or not. It wasn't exactely the same situation as in the US, were pretty much everyone\ncould use one. I may be wrong though, so maybe someone here can elaborate on this topic\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What I can say is that\nfor us this question is pretty much mute. We don't have the discussions\nyou have regarding this matter. It's something that is widely accepted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Considering the historical frequency with which European governments tend\nto massacre the citizenry, domestic and foreign or portions thereof, I\ndon't know if I would feel so blase about it as you folks mostly do seem\nto." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYou are refering to what, when and where exactely? Anyway, having weapons at home woudn't solve the issue. At any point that we \"folks\" decided to mount an armed resistance there never seemed to be a particular difficulty in getting the weapons for it, so I think it's a mute point. Perhaps you believe that if those citizens were armed by default things would have gone diferently. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When I comment on the \"Wild West\" thing I mean that the state of affairs\non the US in the 19th century was quite a different one from Europe. The\nworld portrayed on Short Sun has more similarities to 19th US than Europe\n(generaly speaking of course)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. I don't think it is all that relevant, but sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI was refering to the opinion that Gene Wolfe is a supporter of the \"guns for everyone\" position just by basing oneself in SS. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but the setting of SS almost demands it. I dont see necessarily a political stance in SS by Wolfe in this matter. I may be wrong, but I think the evidence is not that clear. For me it's irrelevant what his position is anyway, except as a curiosity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"a hundred years ago\nanyone with sufficient funds could purchase a firearm in most European\ncountries with a minimum of fuss\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There were some \"unspoken\" rules, I beleive. For the most part only the\nwealthy, the \"gentleman\", would have firearms without drawing attention\nfrom autorities. A \"nobody\" with a weapon would only get it randomly\nconfiscated by autorities no matter if he actually bought it or not. It\nwasn't exactely the same situation as in the US, were pretty much everyone\ncould use one. I may be wrong though, so maybe someone here can elaborate\non this topic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It depends on the country, in some places it was as you describe. In most\nplaces it was not. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \n \nIn what \"most places\" it was not?\n \n \n \n \nThe thing is that decent weapons were sort of pricey," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and most poor people were poor. When the working classes started to be\nable to afford decent weapons is when there started to be, for some\nreason, a movement for gun control." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \n \n \nAnd what reason for gun control was that? You should know, you learned it in school, while I didn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, the \"Wild West\" is too imbeded, it seems to me, on the minds of\nthe Americans. That's normal. Plus, there's the constitution. The conquest\nof the vast and wild frontier, frontier life, and the inerent dangers of\nsuch a setting, all this was pretty different from the european experience\nin the 19th century. I think this is something, together with your\nconstitution, that is still pretty much alive in your minds. It generates\npassions regarding the whole \"guns or no guns\" issues that are completely\nalien to europeans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If I'm wrong please correct me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe you are mistaken, though I think honestly mistaken." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAt least one US member of this list agreed that I could have a point here. You, another US citizen, disagree. It seems to me that beying mistaken in this case is a matter of personal opinion, so maybe there's validity to what I said after all.\n \n \nPax\n \n \n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<10978.67.142.130.31.1237346180.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T03:16:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<404335.12840.qm@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dunno, here in the Hayfork Valley people are heavily armed, and reasonably\npolite. Even the hippies are heavily armed and measurably less noxious\nthan hippies tend to be.\n\nWhat there is, here, is strikingly little serious crime. We had a murder\ntwo years ago: some tweaker beat his wife to death with a shotgun, so I\nguess it was a gun-related murder. The last one before that was thirty\nyears ago.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As someone who lives in the Wild West, I gotta say it ain't all it's\ncracked up to be. They say an armed society is a polite society, but\nmostly it's just a belligerently overconfident society.\n\nDon\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n\n--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:43 AM\nAnyway, the \"Wild West\" is too imbeded, it\nseems to me, on the minds of the Americans. That's\nnormal. Plus, there's the constitution. The conquest of\nthe vast and wild frontier, frontier life, and the inerent\ndangers of such a setting, all this was pretty different\nfrom the european experience in the 19th century. I think\nthis is something, together with your constitution, that is\nstill pretty much alive in your minds. It generates passions\nregarding the whole \"guns or no guns\" issues that\nare completely alien to europeans.\n\n\nThat's how I took your post, and I thought it was an\ninteresting insight. I didn't take it as a dis on\nAmericans. Of course, not all of our families were even\nhere during the wild west, but it's suffused into the\nculture, for sure.\n\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T03:21:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<834305.96821.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:57:12 -0700\nFrom: cnbrewer at yahoo.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\n\n\n\nIt seems like Silk is a good place to get at this. Here's a man who's horrified at the thought of doing any kind of wrong. And yet he readily and willingly uses and even trains with the most powerful weapons he can get his hands on (or at least the most sufficient for his purposes) when it becomes necessary for a more important purpose.\n\nSilk's is a position I'd like to think Wolfe has: weapons *themselves* are neither good nor bad. They can be horrible when used irresponsibly, and Silk is at times horrified by the azoth even when he loves it for being Hyacinth's. But they can also be necessary and even thoroughly good. Look at the male chem soldiers, for example, who are weapons-become-\"human.\" Like people, they're good when they do good and evil when they do evil." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI can write a book about a tribsman who doesn't want to do \"any kind of wrong\". He's \"job\" as the son of a chieftain means he has to train with weapons. One day his tribe is attacked and he has to defend himself and kill a few guys in the process. Does that make me a defender of the free use of weapons by the citizens?\n \nWolfe my or may not be a defender of this political position, but taking into account the setting of his books, I don't see how these examples can be so clearly indicative of a real world political stance to everyone." } ] }, { "message_id": "<11498.67.142.130.31.1237346584.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T03:23:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<2E273181-8732-431D-B8AB-D8996F6B632C@comcast.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What did he say about pedophilia exactly again? That well-raised boys\nwouldn't put up with that kind of crap, they'd kick and fight and you\ncouldn't actually rape them quitely? I thought it was sort of a normal\nreaction from someone who was forcibly raped twice in his boyhood, then no\nmore.\n\nYou don't think kids should be trained to fight when someone tries to\nmolest them? Hell, I think kids should be taught how to make and use\nimprovised weapons on people who try to molest them, besides thinking that\nthey should be trained from an early age in the proper handling of\nfirearms.\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You ask me to cite and I don't have the facts at my command. It\nseems to me I read a book within the past decade or so that sought to\nrefute another book's anti-gun re-write of history that claimed the\nuse of firearms in Revolutionary America had been vastly magnified\nand mythologized in the popular culture. And there was some mention\nof the 19th century west as well. But I can't give you author or\ntitle, sorry. Maybe someone else's memory is jogged?\n\nRe Wolfe's personal opinions as reflected in his work: I think it's\nclear enough that the man is very conservatively minded, more so as\nhe's gotten older. The crack in Pirate Freedom about the Catholic\npedophilia scandal being inflated from more 'understandable'\nadolescent-centered incidents struck me as a blot on that text as a\nwhole though. And a personal affront to my sensibilities, though I\nsympathize with his politics in general.\n\n\nOn Mar 17, 2009, at 8:48 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 10:24 AM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " The proper balancing of those two might vary from state to state\n(or within metropolitan areas) depending on the needs of the\npopulace, but always within those obvious boundaries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm with you on this. Not too many folk realize that most small\ntowns in the 'wild west', the ones all those tv shows were modeled\non, required the temporary confiscation of weaponry upon entering the\ncity limits. You got your guns back when you rode on out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cite. I know of one instance where this happened, in Tombstone AZ,\nwhere\nit was pretty blatantly enforced against one of the factions vying for\ncontrol of the town, and was directly tied to an huge surge in the\nmurder\nrate. What other examples do you have? I don't necessarily dispute\nthat\nthere were some, but I'd like to see some evidence.\n\nClint Eastwood gives an interesting example of a town with gun\ncontrol in\nhis great movie 'The Unforgiven', which really everyone should see.\nIf you\nhave not seen it, run don't walk.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11723.67.142.130.31.1237347649.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T03:40:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<355245.30897.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Craig Brewer writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What interests me ... is the culture that has grown up (in\nAmerica, I suppose I should say) around the gun debate. It seems that\nwe???ve been forced to take sides as if we???re for arming every\nable-bodied citizen to protect us from the unwashed masses" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am as fervent a supporter of the right to arm oneself as anyone, and I\nthought we were armed to protect ourselves from the government. Where do\nyou get this unwashed masses bit? It is the disarmers who fear the\nconsequences of armed unwashed masses, especially when they are non-white." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " or that we have to be labeled na??ve\npacifists who blind themselves to potential dangers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather, people who have been well-programmed or (more kindly) who have not\nyet shaken off their programming.\n\nYour further representations of what people on each side of the argument\n'believe' seems to me to be somewhat inaccurate and reflective, in parts,\nof a high level of ignorance: semi-automatic weapons are in fact used for\nsport, both for hunting and for target shooting:\n\nhttp://hunting.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/tp_auto_rifles.htm\n\nAlso I really do think that sublimated racism and a coordinated and\ndecades long media campaign has more to do with anti-gun attitudes than\nanything else.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<233313.3358.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T03:50:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<11723.67.142.130.31.1237347649.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brunians,\n\nYou personally may want guns to protect you from the government, but it's much more commonly argued that self-defense or home/property defense is why we should have guns. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just saying that gun lobby usually seems to push that idea in their vocal and public arguments more than that we have to fear an evil government.\n\nThat said, I agree about your point of the inherent racism in some of the anti-gun lobby. But that's just another example of my point that the gun argument is usually an excuse to argue about other \"hidden\" issues.\n\nAs for this:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your further representations of what people on each side of the argument\n'believe' seems to me to be somewhat inaccurate and reflective, in parts,\nof a high level of ignorance: semi-automatic weapons are in fact used for\nsport, both for hunting and for target shooting:\n\nhttp://hunting.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/tp_auto_rifles.htm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not ignorant, thanks. I belong to the NRA, even though I'm not a fan of guns. (It's a family thing...complicated.) My family is full of hunters, and I've shot semi-automatics for \"sport\" with them. I've never read about a single animal that *required* a semi-automatic to take it down. It may make it easier, but using sport to justify a military-grade weapon is another one of those backwards arguments. I still think it's a sham and an excuse to have big toys. Just because someone can rationalize something doesn't make it rational.\n\nIf you want to have access to military-style weapons, then make the \"protect myself from the government\" argument. Don't hide behind sport.\n\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: \"brunians at brunians.org\" \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 10:40:49 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\n\nCraig Brewer writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What interests me ... is the culture that has grown up (in\nAmerica, I suppose I should say) around the gun debate. It seems that\nwe???ve been forced to take sides as if we???re for arming every\nable-bodied citizen to protect us from the unwashed masses" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am as fervent a supporter of the right to arm oneself as anyone, and I\nthought we were armed to protect ourselves from the government. Where do\nyou get this unwashed masses bit? It is the disarmers who fear the\nconsequences of armed unwashed masses, especially when they are non-white." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " or that we have to be labeled na??ve\npacifists who blind themselves to potential dangers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather, people who have been well-programmed or (more kindly) who have not\nyet shaken off their programming.\n\nYour further representations of what people on each side of the argument\n'believe' seems to me to be somewhat inaccurate and reflective, in parts,\nof a high level of ignorance: semi-automatic weapons are in fact used for\nsport, both for hunting and for target shooting:\n\nhttp://hunting.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/tp_auto_rifles.htm\n\nAlso I really do think that sublimated racism and a coordinated and\ndecades long media campaign has more to do with anti-gun attitudes than\nanything else.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<607743.68972.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T03:57:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<11498.67.142.130.31.1237346584.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 3/17/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 9:23 PM\nWhat did he say about pedophilia exactly again? That\nwell-raised boys\nwouldn't put up with that kind of crap, they'd kick\nand fight and you\ncouldn't actually rape them quitely?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's how I remember it. Not that the problem had been\nexaggerated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought it was sort of a normal\nreaction from someone who was forcibly raped twice in his\nboyhood, then no more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You don't think kids should be trained to fight when\nsomeone tries to molest them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI do, but I'm not a Christian. As the statement came from\na Catholic priest, it surprised me greatly. Jesus says in\nthe Sermon on the Mount that you shouldn't resist evil\n(Matt. 5:39).\n\nI take it I missed an interesting discussion on whether\nWolfe presented Chris as a relatively decent fallen human\nbeing trying to deal with near-impossible circumstances,\nor as a \"half-human monster\" who, once he leaves the\nmonastery, becomes horrifyingly evil and stays that way\ndespite working as a priest.\n\nI also take it that the jokes about the rest of Matt. 5:39\nhave been made to the extent necessary.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T04:04:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<11723.67.142.130.31.1237347649.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That argument can only really hold water when it comes to the U.S., though, and there has been disarmament in a number of other countries that I think would be difficult to attribute to racism.\n\nIt surprises me that nobody has brought up the urban/rural divide on the gun issue. I think there are definite, pragmatic reasons why city-dwellers all over seem to be in favor of gun control in greater proportions than their rural counterparts. And personally I don't think it would be unreasonable to accommodate both parties by limiting those who can carry firearms in dense urban areas while leaving the rural areas alone." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.\" -- Lin Yutang" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:40:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\n\nCraig Brewer writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What interests me ... is the culture that has grown up (in\nAmerica, I suppose I should say) around the gun debate. It seems that\nwe???ve been forced to take sides as if we???re for arming every\nable-bodied citizen to protect us from the unwashed masses" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am as fervent a supporter of the right to arm oneself as anyone, and I\nthought we were armed to protect ourselves from the government. Where do\nyou get this unwashed masses bit? It is the disarmers who fear the\nconsequences of armed unwashed masses, especially when they are non-white." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " or that we have to be labeled na??ve\npacifists who blind themselves to potential dangers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rather, people who have been well-programmed or (more kindly) who have not\nyet shaken off their programming.\n\nYour further representations of what people on each side of the argument\n'believe' seems to me to be somewhat inaccurate and reflective, in parts,\nof a high level of ignorance: semi-automatic weapons are in fact used for\nsport, both for hunting and for target shooting:\n\nhttp://hunting.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/tp_auto_rifles.htm\n\nAlso I really do think that sublimated racism and a coordinated and\ndecades long media campaign has more to do with anti-gun attitudes than\nanything else.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T04:34:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Chris P wrote:\nIt surprises me that nobody has brought up the urban/rural divide on \nthe gun issue. I think there are definite, pragmatic reasons why \ncity-dwellers all over seem to be in favor of gun control in greater \nproportions than their rural counterparts. And personally I don't \nthink it would be unreasonable to accommodate both parties by \nlimiting those who can carry firearms in dense urban areas while \nleaving the rural areas alone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now we're onto something.\nI live in San Francisco, near Bayview (a \"ghetto\"), right up the \nstreet from where the Bologna family was famously massacred over a \nminor traffic inconvenience.\nI hear gunshots weekly. 3 blocks from my work, downtown SF, I heard \nsomeone get shot to death a couple months ago. (heard the shots, then \nlooked to see everyone screaming over the dead man). Guns are a big \nproblem in this city. I HIGHLY doubt the gunshots I hear so often \nhave \"good\" reasons, intentions or outcomes.\nThere are a lot of stupid, angry assholes ready to pop, and they're \nover-armed. (Hell, a chick on the bus pulled out her mace and \nthreatened me because I suggested that spitting sunflower seeds \neverywhere was pretty gross.) People are stupid and angry, easily \noffended, and too easily armed.\n\nBut if I lived in a rural area, I don't suppose I'd have any real \nobjections to guns.\n\n& I'm definitely with Brewer when it comes to the rationalization for \nsemi-automatic weapons.\n\n\nAs a complete aside, it's quite interesting to talk about this stuff \nwith y'all. It's too easy to end up in an echo chamber, especially \nwhen you live in SF. It's hard to even find self-proclaimed \nconservatives here. I'm pretty damn liberal, but living in SF long \nenough will make you gag at some of the thoughtless knee-jerk (not to \nmention arrogant) liberal attitudes. Enough, at least, to be MORE than \nwilling to engage with conservatives and others who are NOT full of \nthoughtless pre-packaged attitudes; a nice change from the type of \nloud mouth stupid conservatives I've met in \"real life\" and within my \nown family. (hopefully you read that right, I'm not calling anyone \nhere stupid conservatives, the stupid ones are in my own family, and \nones who yelled at me for carrying a sign protesting a bullshit \ninvasion. \"they'll be dancing in the streets\" is how the prepackaged \nmeme went)\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13623.67.142.130.31.1237352199.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T04:56:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<233313.3358.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunians,\n\nYou personally may want guns to protect you from the government," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not just that: it was the stated intent of the amendment from the beginning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " but it's\nmuch more commonly argued that self-defense or home/property defense is\nwhy we should have guns." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are additional reasons, and good ones. But they are not the primary\nreason why the amendment was considered necessary before the constitution\ncould be ratified." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just\nsaying that gun lobby" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which gun lobby? There are three that I know of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " usually seems to push that idea in their vocal and\npublic arguments more than that we have to fear an evil government." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Google: gun ownership defense tyranny\n\nThere are really a lot of people, I'd guess the majority of gun-owners,\nwho grasp this. I imagine that these vocal and public arguments are\naddressed to the people on the fence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your further representations of what people on each side of the argument\n'believe' seems to me to be somewhat inaccurate and reflective, in parts,\nof a high level of ignorance: semi-automatic weapons are in fact used for\nsport, both for hunting and for target shooting:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://hunting.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/tp_auto_rifles.htm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not ignorant, thanks. I belong to the NRA," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't. The NRA are compromisers.\n\nAnd anyway, whether or not the NRA makes the argument that guns are there\nas a defense against tyranny, the fact of the matter is that that is why\nthey are there, which makes their compromising with the disarmers even mor\negregious.\n\nThe reason one uses a semi-automatic weapon for hunting, if I recall\ncorrectly (I don't hunt) is that you don't have to take it away from your\neye to bring up the second shot, and so if you merely wound the animal,\nyou have a better chance of a second shot kill, which saves the animal\nmuch suffering and you much time and trouble.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9312.67.142.130.31.1237352483.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T05:01:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<607743.68972.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You don't think kids should be trained to fight when\nsomeone tries to molest them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do, but I'm not a Christian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You think that Christians think that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " As the statement came from\na Catholic priest, it surprised me greatly. Jesus says in\nthe Sermon on the Mount that you shouldn't resist evil\n(Matt. 5:39)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He says 'turn the other cheek', that is, one time. He doesn't say keep on\nturning again and again like some kind of bobbly-head critter on the\ndashboard.\n\nLove your enemies - that way they don't even suspect you right up until\nwhen you fuck up their day.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4440.67.142.130.31.1237353001.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T05:10:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That argument can only really hold water when it comes to the U.S.,\nthough, and there has been disarmament in a number of other countries that\nI think would be difficult to attribute to racism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But easy to attribute to Fear Of The Lower Orders, or the Southerners (in\nItaly)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It surprises me that nobody has brought up the urban/rural divide on the\ngun issue. I think there are definite, pragmatic reasons why city-dwellers\nall over seem to be in favor of gun control in greater proportions than\ntheir rural counterparts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No there aren't. Washington DC has 400,000 people. Tucson AZ has 400,000\npeople. Tucson AZ has, like, twenty, thirty murders a year. There is a\nthriving drug trade in both cities, a minority majority in both cities,\nand Tucson has also *huge* amounts of illegal humans coming through as\nwell as guys who will come up the fifty miles from Mexico to steal cars to\norder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " And personally I don't think it would be\nunreasonable to accommodate both parties by limiting those who can carry\nfirearms in dense urban areas while leaving the rural areas alone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This would make sense if the murder rate in Tucson was higher than it is\nin DC.\n\nI don't see anything wrong with requiring a permit to carry a concealed\nweapon, as long as the issuing authority cannot refuse to issue save for\ncause. I note that in Tucson there is no concept of legal concealed carry\nexcept for cops (or there didn't use to be): your weapon must be exposed\nto public view. When I drove the taxi there, I would put a clip-on sheath\ninto my left pants pocket (southpaw) and leave a half-inch of the grip\npoking out to satisfy the legal requirement.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6375.67.142.130.31.1237353119.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T05:11:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I live in San Francisco, near Bayview (a \"ghetto\"), right up the\nstreet from where the Bologna family was famously massacred over a\nminor traffic inconvenience.\nI hear gunshots weekly. 3 blocks from my work, downtown SF, I heard\nsomeone get shot to death a couple months ago. (heard the shots, then\nlooked to see everyone screaming over the dead man). Guns are a big\nproblem in this city. I HIGHLY doubt the gunshots I hear so often\nhave \"good\" reasons, intentions or outcomes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But how can this be? It is basically illegal to own a weapon in San\nFrancisco.\n\nHow old are you, man?\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T06:25:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4440.67.142.130.31.1237353001.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That argument can only really hold water when it comes to the U.S.,\nthough, and there has been disarmament in a number of other countries that\nI think would be difficult to attribute to racism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But easy to attribute to Fear Of The Lower Orders, or the Southerners (in\nItaly)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no problem believing that some people favor gun control for fear of the \"lower orders\", or for racial reasons. But I do not buy into this as a general explanation of the entire phenomena; I do not see massive support for gun control in the Deep South, for example. And for every person that doesn't like guns because they're afraid of poor people, there's another who *owns* a gun (or five) due to fear of poor people and will fight for their right to keep it.\n\nI am not a gun control activist, but I am not emotionally invested in thinking that people on either side of the issue take the stance they do due to ignorance, fear or just generally being Bad People." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It surprises me that nobody has brought up the urban/rural divide on the\ngun issue. I think there are definite, pragmatic reasons why city-dwellers\nall over seem to be in favor of gun control in greater proportions than\ntheir rural counterparts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No there aren't. Washington DC has 400,000 people. Tucson AZ has 400,000\npeople. Tucson AZ has, like, twenty, thirty murders a year. There is a\nthriving drug trade in both cities, a minority majority in both cities,\nand Tucson has also *huge* amounts of illegal humans coming through as\nwell as guys who will come up the fifty miles from Mexico to steal cars to\norder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not at all certain what your point is with this passage. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " And personally I don't think it would be\nunreasonable to accommodate both parties by limiting those who can carry\nfirearms in dense urban areas while leaving the rural areas alone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would make sense if the murder rate in Tucson was higher than it is\nin DC." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tucson and Washington DC have similar populations, but Tucson sprawls out over three times the area of DC. Population density is kind of an important part of the point I was making. I can't tell if your point was to elaborate on the similarity of the areas or the differences, and I cannot tell why the relative murder rate in Tucson and DC has anything to do with it. I never said that gun ownership was the sole factor determining the rate of violent crime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see anything wrong with requiring a permit to carry a concealed\nweapon, as long as the issuing authority cannot refuse to issue save for\ncause. I note that in Tucson there is no concept of legal concealed carry\nexcept for cops (or there didn't use to be): your weapon must be exposed\nto public view. When I drove the taxi there, I would put a clip-on sheath\ninto my left pants pocket (southpaw) and leave a half-inch of the grip\npoking out to satisfy the legal requirement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well that is not horribly different from what I said." } ] }, { "message_id": "<722494.42734.qm@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T06:25:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Son of Witz wrote:\nI hear gunshots weekly. 3 blocks from my work, downtown SF,\nI heard someone get shot to death a couple months ago.\n(heard the shots, then looked to see everyone screaming over\nthe dead man). Guns are a big problem in this city. I\nHIGHLY doubt the gunshots I hear so often have\n\"good\" reasons, intentions or outcomes.\nThere are a lot of stupid, angry assholes ready to pop, and\nthey're over-armed. (Hell, a chick on the bus pulled\nout her mace and threatened me because I suggested that\nspitting sunflower seeds everywhere was pretty gross.) \nPeople are stupid and angry, easily offended, and too easily\narmed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But how many of these people are LEGALLY armed? That's my problem with gun control- most of the people committing gun crimes obtained the guns illegally in the first place, the main exception being domestic violence cases.\n\nDon\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<217673.50742.qm@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T06:37:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Chris P wrote:\n\nI have no problem believing that some people favor gun\ncontrol for fear of the \"lower orders\", or for\nracial reasons. But I do not buy into this as a general\nexplanation of the entire phenomena; I do not see massive\nsupport for gun control in the Deep South, for example. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Up until recently (within the last 30 - 40 years), the Deep South and the South in general would have been considered poor as a region, thanks largely to the lingering effects of Reconstruction. We definitely fell into the \"lower orders\" that people would have been happy to disarm.\n\nDon\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1670.67.142.130.31.1237358811.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T06:46:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am not a gun control activist, but I am not emotionally invested in\nthinking that people on either side of the issue take the stance they do\ndue to ignorance, fear or just generally being Bad People." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There has to be some degree of ignorance of history for people to even\nthink it is a good idea.\n\nAlso we swim in a sea of propaganda, or most of us do. It is amazing,\nreally, how good the propaganda is, especially for those who consume TV as\nrequired." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It surprises me that nobody has brought up the urban/rural divide on\nthe\ngun issue. I think there are definite, pragmatic reasons why\ncity-dwellers\nall over seem to be in favor of gun control in greater proportions\nthan\ntheir rural counterparts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No there aren't. Washington DC has 400,000 people. Tucson AZ has 400,000\npeople. Tucson AZ has, like, twenty, thirty murders a year. There is a\nthriving drug trade in both cities, a minority majority in both cities,\nand Tucson has also *huge* amounts of illegal humans coming through as\nwell as guys who will come up the fifty miles from Mexico to steal cars\nto order." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am not at all certain what your point is with this passage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had thought that the high number of murders in Washington DC was well\nknown. Apparently not. There were 181 in 2007: an improvement over the\nearly 90's.\n\nMost of these murders were committed with firearms.\n\nThe question is, how can this be? Guns are illegal in DC. How can there be\nany crimes committed with guns at all if guns are illegal there?\n\nPlease address this question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " And personally I don't think it would\nbe\nunreasonable to accommodate both parties by limiting those who can\ncarry\nfirearms in dense urban areas while leaving the rural areas alone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This would make sense if the murder rate in Tucson was higher than it is\nin DC." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tucson and Washington DC have similar populations, but Tucson sprawls out\nover three times the area of DC. Population density is kind of an\nimportant part of the point I was making." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you think it is because people are all crowded together? I think it is\nbecause you have disarmed the honest ones.\n\nPeople in Switzerland are very heavily armed, and I believe that their\ncities are pretty densely populated. Hardly any crime there at all.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<11050.67.142.130.31.1237358936.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T06:48:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<722494.42734.qm@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Doggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I hear gunshots weekly. 3 blocks from my work, downtown SF,\nI heard someone get shot to death a couple months ago.\n(heard the shots, then looked to see everyone screaming over\nthe dead man). Guns are a big problem in this city. I\nHIGHLY doubt the gunshots I hear so often have\n\"good\" reasons, intentions or outcomes.\nThere are a lot of stupid, angry assholes ready to pop, and\nthey're over-armed. (Hell, a chick on the bus pulled\nout her mace and threatened me because I suggested that\nspitting sunflower seeds everywhere was pretty gross.)\nPeople are stupid and angry, easily offended, and too easily\narmed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But how many of these people are LEGALLY armed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None of them are: it has been illegal for a civilian to own a firearm in\nSF for some time now.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8469.67.142.130.31.1237359093.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T06:51:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<217673.50742.qm@web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have no problem believing that some people favor gun\ncontrol for fear of the \"lower orders\", or for\nracial reasons. But I do not buy into this as a general\nexplanation of the entire phenomena; I do not see massive\nsupport for gun control in the Deep South, for example." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Up until recently (within the last 30 - 40 years), the Deep South and the\nSouth in general would have been considered poor as a region, thanks\nlargely to the lingering effects of Reconstruction. We definitely fell\ninto the \"lower orders\" that people would have been happy to disarm." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No doubt. And still: rednecks are subject to more racial stereotypes than\nnegros.\n\nThe South shall rise again.\nThe West has yet to rise.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T07:47:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1670.67.142.130.31.1237358811.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently this is an emotional subject for you. So, snark on then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No there aren't. Washington DC has 400,000 people. Tucson AZ has 400,000\npeople. Tucson AZ has, like, twenty, thirty murders a year. There is a\nthriving drug trade in both cities, a minority majority in both cities,\nand Tucson has also *huge* amounts of illegal humans coming through as\nwell as guys who will come up the fifty miles from Mexico to steal cars\nto order." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am not at all certain what your point is with this passage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had thought that the high number of murders in Washington DC was well\nknown. Apparently not. There were 181 in 2007: an improvement over the\nearly 90's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would be highly, extraordinarily pertinent and a very intelligent point to make if I had made the claim that cities with gun control laws had no crime or murders.\n\nSince I didn't, naturally I should have assumed that this was what you were getting at." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Most of these murders were committed with firearms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean when you make a law, that doesn't immediately alter the laws of nature to make that law impossible to violate?\n\nI never, ever would have guessed. That must be part of the arcane mysteries that Bruno taught you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question is, how can this be? Guns are illegal in DC. How can there be\nany crimes committed with guns at all if guns are illegal there?\n\nPlease address this question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See above. I can be as flippant and condescending as you. Or wait, maybe I can't. I haven't insinuated you're an uneducated mouth-breather for daring to semi-disagree with me yet. Or made you the straw man for all the beliefs I disagree with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " And personally I don't think it would\nbe\nunreasonable to accommodate both parties by limiting those who can\ncarry\nfirearms in dense urban areas while leaving the rural areas alone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This would make sense if the murder rate in Tucson was higher than it is\nin DC." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tucson and Washington DC have similar populations, but Tucson sprawls out\nover three times the area of DC. Population density is kind of an\nimportant part of the point I was making." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you think it is because people are all crowded together? I think it is\nbecause you have disarmed the honest ones." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I checked to see which people were honest when I personally went out on my magical faery dragon and disarmed them all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "People in Switzerland are very heavily armed, and I believe that their\ncities are pretty densely populated. Hardly any crime there at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the only difference between Switzerland and Washington DC is the existence of guns there, obviously." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0A8A5.1010206@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T07:54:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903171013x16accd77k3cfc388e4fc2923a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 10:03 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a Big Lie, that you are repeating." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm familiar with the concept of the Big Lie. The Bush administration\nused it often enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The debate recorded in 'The Federalist Papers' and 'The Anti-Federalist\nPapers', and usage of the term militia at the time clearly show the\nopposite of what you say. This lie has been refuted time and time again,\nbut like the proper Big Lie that it is, continues to be repeated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not talking about anything but what the Amendment says. It gives\na purpose. The given puropse is \"the security of the State.\" How it\ncame to be there is another question, but has no legal bearing on the\nquestion of what the Amendment says and means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's \"the security of a free state\", please, which is materially very \ndifferent." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0A925.8040106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T07:56:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nWell, beying an european, I'm going to abstain from commenting\non the particulars of your constitution and on your (US) views of this \nmatter. After all, the \"Wild West\" is too fresh on your mind and\nculture and it's probably normal that these matters raise certain\n\"passions\" among US citizens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is such a quaint, European view of Americans. It's so cute!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They can't help it, the failure of Versailles being too fresh on their \nminds." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0AB81.4020408@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:06:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nBut if there was a revolt, they would quash it so fast and could\ndeclare Martial Law, and then our second amendment rights would mean\nexactly squat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's exactly what the right is for, to have guns accumulated ahead of \ntime. The tyrant can declare it taken away, but he can't enforce it \nuniversally. Who will conduct the billions of building searches to find \neverywhere that hundreds of millions of firearms and trillions of rounds \nof ammunition might be hidden?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0AD38.2040604@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:13:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<404335.12840.qm@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "don doggett wrote:\nAs someone who lives in the Wild West, I gotta say it ain't all it's\ncracked up to be. They say an armed society is a polite society, but\nmostly it's just a belligerently overconfident society." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh yes, armed = polite is bullshit, just look at Sierra Leone." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7547.72.171.0.141.1237364074.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:14:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apparently this is an emotional subject for you. So, snark on then." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am unaware of having made any particular display of emotion: in fact, I\nhave been quite calm and dispassionate all evening.\n\nI have found that when someone, out of the blue, starts talking about the\nperson they are talking to's emotional state, it is not that person's\nemotional state that they are actually talking about.\n\nFortunately, you are not my only interlocutor, and any points I have\nwanted to make with you have been made.\n\nI do wish you a calm rest of the evening, and on into tomorrow.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5022.72.171.0.141.1237364309.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:18:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0AB81.4020408@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But if there was a revolt, they would quash it so fast and could\ndeclare Martial Law, and then our second amendment rights would mean\nexactly squat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's exactly what the right is for, to have guns accumulated ahead of\ntime. The tyrant can declare it taken away, but he can't enforce it\nuniversally. Who will conduct the billions of building searches to find\neverywhere that hundreds of millions of firearms and trillions of rounds\nof ammunition might be hidden?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are trying to teach helplessness to his generation. Why prepare to\nfight if you've already lost ahead of time? Just do what they say.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0AEA8.50408@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:19:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<11050.67.142.130.31.1237358936.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nNone of them are: it has been illegal for a civilian to own a firearm in\nSF for some time now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet, we have a (slightly) lower murder rate than Tucson:\n\nhttp://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=San+Francisco&state=CA\nhttp://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Tucson&state=AZ" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "People in Switzerland are very heavily armed" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Less than half the per capita gun ownership of the U.S." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hardly any crime there at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their murder rate is almost three times that of Italy, which has a much \nlower gun ownership rate.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_countries_by_gun_ownership\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate\n\nMy understanding is there isn't much correlation in either direction \nbetween gun ownership rates and murder rates. But I'm open to actual \nevidence (as opposed to cherry-picked examples).\n\nBy the way: do you support private ownership of nuclear weapons? If not, \n how do you reconcile that with your constitutional views, and how do \nyou justify drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable weapons \nin one place rather than another? (These are not rhetorical questions. \nI'm curious. And for what it's worth, I lean against gun control, albeit \nrather tepidly.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6144.72.171.0.141.1237364634.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:23:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0AEA8.50408@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah yes, I was wondering how long it would take someone to trot this one out.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "None of them are: it has been illegal for a civilian to own a firearm in\nSF for some time now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And yet, we have a (slightly) lower murder rate than Tucson:\n\nhttp://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=San+Francisco&state=CA\nhttp://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Tucson&state=AZ\n\n > People in Switzerland are very heavily armed\n\nLess than half the per capita gun ownership of the U.S.\n\n > Hardly any crime there at all.\n\nTheir murder rate is almost three times that of Italy, which has a much\nlower gun ownership rate.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_countries_by_gun_ownership\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate\n\nMy understanding is there isn't much correlation in either direction\nbetween gun ownership rates and murder rates. But I'm open to actual\nevidence (as opposed to cherry-picked examples).\n\nBy the way: do you support private ownership of nuclear weapons? If not,\n how do you reconcile that with your constitutional views, and how do\nyou justify drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable weapons\nin one place rather than another? (These are not rhetorical questions.\nI'm curious. And for what it's worth, I lean against gun control, albeit\nrather tepidly.)\n\n--\n\nTim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220903180128i71d1d77bre4b033f15fe413a4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:28:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0AEA8.50408@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Most criminologists will tell you that economic factors have more to\ndo with the prevalence of violent crime than do things like gun\nownership. The most common causes of intentional homicide (in the\nvulgar, murder) are things that relate to relatively uncommon events:\nhigh emotions, difficult situations, and organized crime. The sort of\ncrime that gun ownership is thought to prevent (where the criminal\nrationally considers that there is a greater risk to his or her own\nlife because of the victim's chance of owning a gun) isn't murder at\nall. Gun ownership might protect the home in case of burglary, or\nprevent an assault or domestic assault, but not murder. For example,\nalong the border we're experiencing a rash of Mexican drug\ncartel-related killings. These murders go on knowing full well that\nthe other party is going to be armed, usually heavily so, with the\nexpectation that there will be a good chance of a firefight. That\ndoesn't deter the killers, because their motive is one that outweighs\n(for them) the risk of death.\n\nIf people really wanted to reduce homicides and other violent crimes,\nthey'd focus more on removing the motives people have for these\nthings: profit through black market, sudden rages and passions, and\nassorted economic/social problems.\n\n-L." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:19 AM, Tim Walters wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "None of them are: it has been illegal for a civilian to own a firearm in\nSF for some time now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And yet, we have a (slightly) lower murder rate than Tucson:\n\nhttp://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=San+Francisco&state=CA\nhttp://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Tucson&state=AZ" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "People in Switzerland are very heavily armed" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Less than half the per capita gun ownership of the U.S." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hardly any crime there at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Their murder rate is almost three times that of Italy, which has a much\nlower gun ownership rate.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_countries_by_gun_ownership\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate\n\nMy understanding is there isn't much correlation in either direction between\ngun ownership rates and murder rates. But I'm open to actual evidence (as\nopposed to cherry-picked examples).\n\nBy the way: do you support private ownership of nuclear weapons? If not,\n“how do you reconcile that with your constitutional views, and how do you\njustify drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable weapons in one\nplace rather than another” (These are not rhetorical questions. I'm curious.\nAnd for what it's worth, I lean against gun control, albeit rather tepidly.)\n\n--\n\nTim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0B0F0.7080407@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:29:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<6144.72.171.0.141.1237364634.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAh yes, I was wondering how long it would take someone to trot this one out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you don't have any evidence, then. Glad we got that straight." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0B1A8.60704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:32:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0AEA8.50408@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "None of them are: it has been illegal for a civilian to own a firearm in\nSF for some time now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And yet, we have a (slightly) lower murder rate than Tucson:\n\nhttp://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=San+Francisco&state=CA\nhttp://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Tucson&state=AZ\n\n > People in Switzerland are very heavily armed\n\nLess than half the per capita gun ownership of the U.S." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However, 60% of Swiss men aged 18-34 keep rifles and other firearms \nbelonging to the army at home as part of their conscripted and reserve \nmilitary service." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0B268.1070807@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:35:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<272706220903180128i71d1d77bre4b033f15fe413a4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood wrote:\nThe sort of\ncrime that gun ownership is thought to prevent (where the criminal\nrationally considers that there is a greater risk to his or her own\nlife because of the victim's chance of owning a gun) isn't murder at\nall. [and a bunch of other stuff that I agree with, and which \nexplains > quite well why I'm tepidly anti-gun-control]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite so. But brunians' claim was that gun ownership reduces murder rates." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0B2B9.4060309@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:37:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0B1A8.60704@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nHowever, 60% of Swiss men aged 18-34 keep rifles and other firearms \nbelonging to the army at home as part of their conscripted and reserve \nmilitary service." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there any reason to think that isn't included in the ownership figure?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220903180141h5353283fmb40a74269faabbc0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:41:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0B268.1070807@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know. My point is that ownership or non-ownership doesn't affect\nviolent crime rates. This is one of the rare occasions where I think\nboth sides of the American gun control debate are off-base.\nPreventing access to guns will likely stop firearm-killings from\nhappening, but I don't think it'd have a significant affect on the\noverall violent crime rate. If you walk home and catch your\nsignificant other with another person, and you happen to grab a\nkitchen knife before you get your gun, it doesn't matter. Murder is\nmurder whether you do it with a gun or not.\n\nSo pointing to countries with low gun ownership rates and low murder\nrates is pointing out a correlation but what is not likely a causal\nrelation. If you look at other factors, I'm going to bet that you\nfind the countries with the lowest per capita murder rates have a high\ngeneral standard of living, significant federal support programs, a\nwell-balanced population, plenty of jobs and a relatively low-stress\nliving environment. I'm also willing to bet that no significant\norganized crime goes on in these countries/areas. Gun ownership (or\nthe lack thereof) is a non-issue.\n\n-L." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:35 AM, Tim Walters wrote:\nLane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The sort of\ncrime that gun ownership is thought to prevent (where the criminal\nrationally considers that there is a greater risk to his or her own\nlife because of the victim's chance of owning a gun) isn't murder at\nall. [and a bunch of other stuff that I agree with, and which explains ?>\nquite well why I'm tepidly anti-gun-control]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Quite so. But brunians' claim was that gun ownership reduces murder rates.\n\n--\n\nTim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:44:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<7547.72.171.0.141.1237364074.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, you can get by on passive-aggressive insinuations.\n\nIf you don't recognize it in your own tone I don't know what to tell you. I just decided you weren't worth any more effort than you were putting into it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Apparently this is an emotional subject for you. So, snark on then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am unaware of having made any particular display of emotion: in fact, I\nhave been quite calm and dispassionate all evening.\n\nI have found that when someone, out of the blue, starts talking about the\nperson they are talking to's emotional state, it is not that person's\nemotional state that they are actually talking about.\n\nFortunately, you are not my only interlocutor, and any points I have\nwanted to make with you have been made.\n\nI do wish you a calm rest of the evening, and on into tomorrow.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0B604.7020600@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T08:51:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<272706220903180141h5353283fmb40a74269faabbc0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood wrote:\nSo pointing to countries with low gun ownership rates and low murder\nrates is pointing out a correlation but what is not likely a causal\nrelation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I should have made \"My understanding is there isn't much \ncorrelation in either direction between gun ownership rates and murder \nrates.\" my first sentence instead of putting it after the demonstration \nof counter-cherry-picking." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220903180222o255c3cc9q8b43ebf52c3d235e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T09:22:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0B604.7020600@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what you get for expecting me to read every line of an e-mail\nat 4:30 in the morning. I am consummately lazy.\n\n-L." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:51 AM, Tim Walters wrote:\nLane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So pointing to countries with low gun ownership rates and low murder\nrates is pointing out a correlation but what is not likely a causal\nrelation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe I should have made \"My understanding is there isn't much correlation\nin either direction between gun ownership rates and murder rates.\" my first\nsentence instead of putting it after the demonstration of\ncounter-cherry-picking.\n\n--\n\nTim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0CC3A.3040509@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T10:26:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0B2B9.4060309@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, 60% of Swiss men aged 18-34 keep rifles and other firearms \nbelonging to the army at home as part of their conscripted and reserve \nmilitary service." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there any reason to think that isn't included in the ownership figure?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can find a well-sourced report on the Swiss' gun-keeping habits here:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland\n\nIn short, there are about 420,000 state-owned weapons at home, 320,000 \npistols and rifles retired from military service with automatic fire \ndisabled, and a minimum of hundreds of thousands of other semi-auto \nfirearms in a nation 7.7 million." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T11:01:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1670.67.142.130.31.1237358811.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you think it is because people are all crowded together? I think it is\nbecause you have disarmed the honest ones.\n\nPeople in Switzerland are very heavily armed, and I believe that their\ncities are pretty densely populated. Hardly any crime there at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An orful lotta emotion heah. Seems lahk muh man Jamie Michener commented in his book The Drifters that homocide rates very strongly tend to be inversely related to the homogeneity of thuh society. I never found the journal article he cited, but the prima facie rationale behind it still seems to me to make sense. \nI don't think it's a \"one explanation fits all\" cases situation, of course. Violence,an extreme for of discourtesy, seems to come from the breaking down of mores with the concomitant geographical area. One of the factors of this breaking down is the heterogeneity of the local populace.\nHaving said that I am a gunowner and I do deliberately not show this off, i.e., I doubt any of my neighbors know I have one. This is due to the \"attractive nuisance\" factor. I don't want to be targeted as a preferred target for burglary due to possessing something a 24 to 44 yr old body with a 14 yr old intellect and a 3 yr old emotional development can put on his \"cover radar\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C0D6FF.1090101@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T11:11:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bob Miller wrote:\nI don't want to be targeted as a \npreferred target for burglary due to possessing something a 24 to 44 yr \nold body with a 14 yr old intellect and a 3 yr old emotional development \ncan put on his \"cover radar\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9580.67.142.130.26.1237378770.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T12:19:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0B0F0.7080407@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry Doubtful Tim, the one I was wondering how long it would take someone\nto trot out was the 'do you think that nuclear weapons should be legal?'\nThe answer too that is, mostly to shut you up (they aren't incredibly\nuseful weapons) I am willing to allow an exception to the general rule as\nlong as it is understood as a single exception.\n\nAnd I expect to be able to use nuclear *explosives* for my various\noff-planet construction projects.\n\nThe bit about the murder rate in SF being about the same as the crime rate\nin Tucson really did catch me by surprise. I will say that I would still\nrather drive a cab in Tucson than in SF.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah yes, I was wondering how long it would take someone to trot this one\nout." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you don't have any evidence, then. Glad we got that straight.\n\n--\n\nTim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14719.67.142.130.26.1237378912.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T12:21:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0B1A8.60704@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "None of them are: it has been illegal for a civilian to own a firearm\nin SF for some time now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And yet, we have a (slightly) lower murder rate than Tucson:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=San+Francisco&state=CA\nhttp://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Tucson&state=AZ" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " > People in Switzerland are very heavily armed" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Less than half the per capita gun ownership of the U.S." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, 60% of Swiss men aged 18-34 keep rifles and other firearms\nbelonging to the army at home as part of their conscripted and reserve\nmilitary service." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those 'other firearms' include fully automatic weapons and crew-served\nartillery, Doubtful Tim.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<12405.67.142.130.26.1237378996.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T12:23:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0B268.1070807@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What, you mean I made another mistake?\n\nMy God, say it isn't so.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood wrote:\n\n > The sort of\n > crime that gun ownership is thought to prevent (where the criminal\n > rationally considers that there is a greater risk to his or her own\n > life because of the victim's chance of owning a gun) isn't murder at\n > all. [and a bunch of other stuff that I agree with, and which\nexplains > quite well why I'm tepidly anti-gun-control]\n\nQuite so. But brunians' claim was that gun ownership reduces murder rates.\n\n--\n\nTim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13649.67.142.130.26.1237379097.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T12:24:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0B2B9.4060309@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, 60% of Swiss men aged 18-34 keep rifles and other firearms\nbelonging to the army at home as part of their conscripted and reserve\nmilitary service." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there any reason to think that isn't included in the ownership figure?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well yes, Prim Tim. They are not privately owned. They are owned by the\ngovernment, issued to the individual serviceman and taken up again when he\nends his service.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<10623.67.142.130.26.1237379356.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T12:29:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, you can get by on passive-aggressive insinuations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am sorry, you are misusing the term 'passive aggressive'. It does not\nmean what you think it means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "___\nPassive-aggressive behavior is passive, sometimes obstructionist\nresistance to following through with expectations in interpersonal or\noccupational situations. It can manifest itself as learned helplessness,\nprocrastination, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or\ndeliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is\n(often explicitly) responsible.\n---\n\nI am so very glad that I could be of service in helping to correct ypur\nmisuse of this term of art.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14596.67.142.130.26.1237379561.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T12:32:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0D6FF.1090101@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bob Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't want to be targeted as a\npreferred target for burglary due to possessing something a 24 to 44 yr\nold body with a 14 yr old intellect and a 3 yr old emotional development\ncan put on his \"cover radar\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed. Are you trying to talk gangsta? I don't think it is quite like that.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8883D37D-136D-4200-9379-5CBFFE7417CB@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T13:43:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<6375.67.142.130.31.1237353119.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 10:11 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I live in San Francisco, near Bayview (a \"ghetto\"), right up the\nstreet from where the Bologna family was famously massacred over a\nminor traffic inconvenience.\nI hear gunshots weekly. 3 blocks from my work, downtown SF, I heard\nsomeone get shot to death a couple months ago. (heard the shots, then\nlooked to see everyone screaming over the dead man). Guns are a big\nproblem in this city. I HIGHLY doubt the gunshots I hear so often\nhave \"good\" reasons, intentions or outcomes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But how can this be? It is basically illegal to own a weapon in San\nFrancisco.\n\nHow old are you, man?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm 34. why?\nand legal, illegal. meh. it's obviously pretty easy for people to get \nguns if they want one." } ] }, { "message_id": "<12659.72.171.0.145.1237384001.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T13:46:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<8883D37D-136D-4200-9379-5CBFFE7417CB@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But how can this be? It is basically illegal to own a weapon in San\nFrancisco." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How old are you, man?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm 34. why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a surprise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and legal, illegal. meh. it's obviously pretty easy for people to get\nguns if they want one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So why do you want to pass laws against them? It would be terribly\ninconvenient for me and a lot of other people. You don't like me or\nsomething? You got beef? I owe you money?\n\nIf you acknowledge that the laws are meaningless, why insist upon having\nthem?\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T13:48:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<5022.72.171.0.141.1237364309.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:18 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But if there was a revolt, they would quash it so fast and could\ndeclare Martial Law, and then our second amendment rights would mean\nexactly squat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's exactly what the right is for, to have guns accumulated \nahead of\ntime. The tyrant can declare it taken away, but he can't enforce it\nuniversally. Who will conduct the billions of building searches to \nfind\neverywhere that hundreds of millions of firearms and trillions of \nrounds\nof ammunition might be hidden?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are trying to teach helplessness to his generation. Why prepare \nto\nfight if you've already lost ahead of time? Just do what they say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ok, now I see why you asked?\nhow old do you think I am?\nmany of my close peers have always favored a revolution.\nI'm NOT, by arguing that we should do nothing. I'm saying an armed \nrevolt would be pretty easily quashed." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T13:52:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<12659.72.171.0.145.1237384001.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 6:46 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But how can this be? It is basically illegal to own a weapon in San\nFrancisco." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How old are you, man?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm 34. why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a surprise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and legal, illegal. meh. it's obviously pretty easy for people to get\nguns if they want one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So why do you want to pass laws against them? It would be terribly\ninconvenient for me and a lot of other people. You don't like me or\nsomething? You got beef? I owe you money?\n\nIf you acknowledge that the laws are meaningless, why insist upon \nhaving\nthem?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Woah. I didn't say I wanted to pass laws.\nI only said I was conflicted about the issue, and that my younger pre- \nprogrammed bias for gun control has slowly eroded.\nI don't know what the proper thing to do is, which is probably why I'm \nnot in politics, or involved with the issue at all, other than an \noccasional discussion that helps me sort this stuff out.\n\nhow old did you think I was? do I come off like some whippersnapper?\n\n\nand YOWZA! 84 posts between signing off last night and logging in \nthis morning.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12234.72.171.0.145.1237384663.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T13:57:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:18 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But if there was a revolt, they would quash it so fast and could\ndeclare Martial Law, and then our second amendment rights would mean\nexactly squat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's exactly what the right is for, to have guns accumulated\nahead of\ntime. The tyrant can declare it taken away, but he can't enforce it\nuniversally. Who will conduct the billions of building searches to\nfind\neverywhere that hundreds of millions of firearms and trillions of\nrounds\nof ammunition might be hidden?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They are trying to teach helplessness to his generation. Why prepare\nto\nfight if you've already lost ahead of time? Just do what they say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ok, now I see why you asked?\nhow old do you think I am?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would have said, maybe, twenty-five." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "many of my close peers have always favored a revolution." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No surprise there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm NOT, by arguing that we should do nothing. I'm saying an armed\nrevolt would be pretty easily quashed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really? What is your evidence for this?\n\nHow many armed revolts have been 'quashed' in the past hundred years or\nso? The Russian one? No, the Bolsheviks took over Russia for seventy\nyears. The German one? No, the Nazis took over Germany and gave us all a\npretty good run for our money.\n\nOK, technically the Nazis used the democratic process to take power. How\nabout the Chinese one? Chinese government still in power I see. Maybe the\nVietnamese one?\n\nPerhaps the Yugoslavs? No again! They took over Yugoslavia, gosh darn it,\nfor a good fifty years!\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T13:57:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<7547.72.171.0.141.1237364074.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:14 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nApparently this is an emotional subject for you. So, snark on then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am unaware of having made any particular display of emotion: in \nfact, I\nhave been quite calm and dispassionate all evening.\n\nI have found that when someone, out of the blue, starts talking \nabout the\nperson they are talking to's emotional state, it is not that person's\nemotional state that they are actually talking about.\n\nFortunately, you are not my only interlocutor, and any points I have\nwanted to make with you have been made.\n\nI do wish you a calm rest of the evening, and on into tomorrow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have been calm.\nit's your short quips that seem snarky. when you back them up with \nelaboration they're not so snarky.\njust saying, one whippersnapper to another.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T13:59:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nand YOWZA! 84 posts between signing off last night and logging in \nthis morning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "oops. less by half. I had a 40 odd msgs still marked unread in my home \ninbox." } ] }, { "message_id": "<10475.72.171.0.145.1237384895.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T14:01:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:14 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Apparently this is an emotional subject for you. So, snark on then.\nI am unaware of having made any particular display of emotion: in\nfact, I have been quite calm and dispassionate all evening." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have found that when someone, out of the blue, starts talking\nabout the person they are talking to's emotional state, it is not that\nperson's emotional state that they are actually talking about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fortunately, you are not my only interlocutor, and any points I have\nwanted to make with you have been made." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do wish you a calm rest of the evening, and on into tomorrow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have been calm." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you. I have been making good progress these last few years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it's your short quips that seem snarky. when you back them up with\nelaboration they're not so snarky.\njust saying, one whippersnapper to another." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "52 next Walpurgisnacht, Fidel. Put it back in your pants.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<581406.49206.qm@web63908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T14:11:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<10475.72.171.0.145.1237384895.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I just stepped outside and checked. Nope, no full moon.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5F62F458-0158-4F3D-9BB8-2CA1C0A18BBD@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T14:16:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<10475.72.171.0.145.1237384895.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 7:01 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You have been calm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thank you. I have been making good progress these last few years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "it's your short quips that seem snarky. when you back them up with\nelaboration they're not so snarky.\njust saying, one whippersnapper to another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "52 next Walpurgisnacht, Fidel. Put it back in your pants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "my gatt?\nit's tucked safely in my belt.\nwhich is around my knees of course.\n\nI too thought you were younger, FWIW." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T14:24:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<12234.72.171.0.145.1237384663.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would have said, maybe, twenty-five." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "many of my close peers have always favored a revolution." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No surprise there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm NOT, by arguing that we should do nothing. I'm saying an armed\nrevolt would be pretty easily quashed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really? What is your evidence for this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just think it would. and all the talk I've heard about detention \ncamps for domestic dissidents and such." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How many armed revolts have been 'quashed' in the past hundred years \nor\nso? The Russian one? No, the Bolsheviks took over Russia for seventy\nyears. The German one? No, the Nazis took over Germany and gave us \nall a\npretty good run for our money.\n\nOK, technically the Nazis used the democratic process to take power. \nHow\nabout the Chinese one? Chinese government still in power I see. \nMaybe the\nVietnamese one?\n\nPerhaps the Yugoslavs? No again! They took over Yugoslavia, gosh \ndarn it,\nfor a good fifty years!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "uh, cause for hope?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T14:36:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I may, it is threads like these that make me wish Urth had a 'List\nSniper' along the lines of SL4's List Sniper: someone empowered to\nofficial declare a thread dead, and to enforce it by moderation &\nbans.\n\nIn this case, the thread has degenerated into boring and poorly-done\ndiscussions of a dozen topics in politics & ethics & sociology which\nhave nothing to do with Gene Wolfe, and can only exasperate or\nembitter people." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C1091F.7020401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T14:45:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So let me get this straight, Brunians. You're saying anti-gun sentiment is racist?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:40:49 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <11723.67.142.130.31.1237347649.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\n-------------------------------\n\nAlso I really do think that sublimated racism and a coordinated and\ndecades long media campaign has more to do with anti-gun attitudes than\nanything else.\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C10C93.5050103@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T15:00:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0CC3A.3040509@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nTim Walters wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there any reason to think that isn't included in the ownership figure?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 \nassault rifles stored at private homes, mostly SIG 550 types. \nAdditionally, there are some 320,000 assault rifles and military pistols \nexempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire \nweapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only. In \naddition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small \narms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private \nhomes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million.\"\n\nThe high figure is lower than the rate from my original link, so clearly \nthese weapons were, in fact, included." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C10DD5.2030900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T15:05:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C10C93.5050103@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brunians---\n\nSome corrections. \n\n(1) Tucson is majority white (2/3), or was in 2000 when the total population was still less than 500,000. Both cities are under 600,000.\n\n(2) You seem to be assuming that Hispanics and Blacks are culturally identical minorities. That's demonstrably false. The analogy fails, whatever it was supposed to mean in the first place.\n\n(3) Tucson is 600 square miles. DC is 61. Therefore, the density is very different. Tucson is not even urban by DC or even East Coast standards. DC is 10 times as dense and has 6 times as many murders. \n\nTherefore, your assumptions are false and do not support your argument. If anything, they undermine your argument, since DC is 10 times as dense but has only 6 times as many murders. \n\nI spent 17 years in DC. I'd hate to live in Tucson if it was jammed into 60 square miles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 01:10:01 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C10F4B.20106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T15:12:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C10DD5.2030900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don---\n\nThat's false. The South was always poor. Before the Civil War, it had 1/3 of the nation's wealth and 2/3 of the nation's rich. Don't blame Reconstruction---er, I mean, that big war they started and lost.\n\nAnd those figures also tell you something about how the lower orders are defined and used. The Southern landowners armed the poor whites and sent them into combat to protect their plantations. \n\nPoor white Southerners are the lower orders that \"people\" are happy to ARM. Not disarm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:37:26 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: don doggett \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <217673.50742.qm at web32401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\n\n\n\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n\nUp until recently (within the last 30 - 40 years), the Deep South and the South in general would have been considered poor as a region, thanks largely to the lingering effects of Reconstruction. We definitely fell into the \"lower orders\" that people would have been happy to disarm.\n\nDon\n\n \n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C11229.6060200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T15:24:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C10F4B.20106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I generally agree with you. But it is known that guns make IMPERSONAL killing easier and therefore, under the right conditions (the conditions being of greater importance) more common across the same situations. \n\nYou'll have fewer gratuitous shootings of mugging victims after they have handed over their wallets, for example. So it is a factor. \n\nAnd there's also the matter of accidental deaths, of course, but that is also affected by gun experience. Which experience has generally been lost in the US with the demise of farming." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 03:41:20 -0500\nFrom: Lane Haygood \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<272706220903180141h5353283fmb40a74269faabbc0 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nI know. My point is that ownership or non-ownership doesn't affect\nviolent crime rates. This is one of the rare occasions where I think\nboth sides of the American gun control debate are off-base.\nPreventing access to guns will likely stop firearm-killings from\nhappening, but I don't think it'd have a significant affect on the\noverall violent crime rate. If you walk home and catch your\nsignificant other with another person, and you happen to grab a\nkitchen knife before you get your gun, it doesn't matter. Murder is\nmurder whether you do it with a gun or not.\n\nSo pointing to countries with low gun ownership rates and low murder\nrates is pointing out a correlation but what is not likely a causal\nrelation. If you look at other factors, I'm going to bet that you\nfind the countries with the lowest per capita murder rates have a high\ngeneral standard of living, significant federal support programs, a\nwell-balanced population, plenty of jobs and a relatively low-stress\nliving environment. I'm also willing to bet that no significant\norganized crime goes on in these countries/areas. Gun ownership (or\nthe lack thereof) is a non-issue.\n\n-L." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903180830v56189c7fga2a36a216a22a3d2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T15:30:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C11229.6060200@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 11:24 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI generally agree with you. But it is known that guns make IMPERSONAL\nkilling easier and therefore, under the right conditions (the conditions\nbeing of greater importance) more common across the same situations.\nYou'll have fewer gratuitous shootings of mugging victims after they have\nhanded over their wallets, for example. So it is a factor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I don't doubt that guns can make killing more impersonal, I'm not so\nsure that your example is well-chosen. Point-blank gun killings, like\ngratuitious killings of mugging victims, are probably not especially\nimpersonall. Having talked to people who've killed with guns at point blank\nrange (soldiers), it's my impression that the experience is pretty\nharrowing.\n\nThen again, I expect a soldier is typically using something a little bit\nmore destructive than the typical mugger, so I might be wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 03:41:20 -0500\nFrom: Lane Haygood \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n <272706220903180141h5353283fmb40a74269faabbc0 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nI know. My point is that ownership or non-ownership doesn't affect\nviolent crime rates. This is one of the rare occasions where I think\nboth sides of the American gun control debate are off-base.\nPreventing access to guns will likely stop firearm-killings from\nhappening, but I don't think it'd have a significant affect on the\noverall violent crime rate. If you walk home and catch your\nsignificant other with another person, and you happen to grab a\nkitchen knife before you get your gun, it doesn't matter. Murder is\nmurder whether you do it with a gun or not.\n\nSo pointing to countries with low gun ownership rates and low murder\nrates is pointing out a correlation but what is not likely a causal\nrelation. If you look at other factors, I'm going to bet that you\nfind the countries with the lowest per capita murder rates have a high\ngeneral standard of living, significant federal support programs, a\nwell-balanced population, plenty of jobs and a relatively low-stress\nliving environment. I'm also willing to bet that no significant\norganized crime goes on in these countries/areas. Gun ownership (or\nthe lack thereof) is a non-issue.\n\n-L.\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090317-0, 03/17/2009\nTested on: 3/18/2009 11:24:26 AM\n\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E7DAE62-AC0E-46E6-A06B-6896B85F7325@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:01:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<8469.67.142.130.31.1237359093.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:51 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nThe South shall rise again.\nThe West has yet to rise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The East is Red.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:03:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C0AEA8.50408@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 3:19 AM, Tim Walters wrote:\nBy the way: do you support private ownership of nuclear weapons?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C11BFF.302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:06:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, very few criminal shootings are from a distance or with a rifle (same thing). So it's always going to be point-blank shootings (of strangers or not) vs stabbings or beatings (of strangers or not). Stabbings are usually motivated by rage, because you get the victim's blood all over you. You can casually shoot the storekeeper because he looked at you funny, or shoot him in a panic because you lost your nerve.\n\nI'd like to actually mention a Gene Wolfe story. The Ziggurat from Strange Travelers always seemed to me to contain a healthy chunk of Wolfean psychology/politics. The protagonist hunts, lives alone, harbors some anger against women, and has to deal with aliens killing his son. If anyone has a point to prove about Wolfe and guns, look there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:30:17 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0903180830v56189c7fga2a36a216a22a3d2 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 11:24 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I generally agree with you. But it is known that guns make IMPERSONAL\nkilling easier and therefore, under the right conditions (the conditions\nbeing of greater importance) more common across the same situations.\nYou'll have fewer gratuitous shootings of mugging victims after they have\nhanded over their wallets, for example. So it is a factor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nWhile I don't doubt that guns can make killing more impersonal, I'm not so\nsure that your example is well-chosen. Point-blank gun killings, like\ngratuitious killings of mugging victims, are probably not especially\nimpersonall. Having talked to people who've killed with guns at point blank\nrange (soldiers), it's my impression that the experience is pretty\nharrowing.\n\nThen again, I expect a soldier is typically using something a little bit\nmore destructive than the typical mugger, so I might be wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12443.67.142.130.35.1237392555.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:09:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I may, it is threads like these that make me wish Urth had a 'List\nSniper' along the lines of SL4's List Sniper: someone empowered to\nofficial declare a thread dead, and to enforce it by moderation &\nbans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The world is divided into two sorts of people: those who like to manage\nthe affairs of others and those who do not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this case, the thread has degenerated into boring and poorly-done\ndiscussions of a dozen topics in politics & ethics & sociology which\nhave nothing to do with Gene Wolfe, and can only exasperate or\nembitter people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In your opinion. In mine it has been a reasonably good natured discussion\nof a difficult subject which happens to be important to Wolfe and an\nimportant theme in his writing. If you feel exasperated or embittered, may\nI recommend that you undertake the practice described in Epictetus\n'Handbook': http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html is not the\nbest translation, but it will get you started. It has really helped me.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903180911gce7e1fck8a93db1fa90ed98@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:11:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<12443.67.142.130.35.1237392555.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know,\n\nIf I wanted to have a lengthy discussion of RKBA politics, there are\nlists I could\ngo to for that. Can we get back to Wolfe please?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15795.67.142.130.35.1237392709.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:11:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C1091F.7020401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, at the core of it, that is a very large part of it. Not\nnecessarily racist: classist or regionalist or what have you. It's about\ndisarming the portion of the citizenry which you fear.\n\nWhat word is missing from this well-known phrase: 'Saturday Night Special'?\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So let me get this straight, Brunians. You're saying anti-gun sentiment is\nracist?\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:40:49 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <11723.67.142.130.31.1237347649.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\n-------------------------------\n\nAlso I really do think that sublimated racism and a coordinated and\ndecades long media campaign has more to do with anti-gun attitudes than\nanything else.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090317-0, 03/17/2009\nTested on: 3/18/2009 10:45:56 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:13:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nIf I may, it is threads like these that make me wish Urth had a 'List\nSniper' along the lines of SL4's List Sniper: someone empowered to\nofficial declare a thread dead, and to enforce it by moderation &\nbans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The list does have moderators. This particular one thinks that the\ncost of killing this particular thread is prohibitive." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2479.67.142.130.35.1237392919.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:15:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4E7DAE62-AC0E-46E6-A06B-6896B85F7325@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:51 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The South shall rise again.\nThe West has yet to rise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The East is Red." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No doubt about that.\n\nSort of a pity in a way.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<13907.67.142.130.35.1237393190.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:19:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C11BFF.302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or that one with the near-future woods bum who needs a new hunting rifle\nand goes on a reality show that puts tv cameras in his head and a\n$100,000, which the Feds want, of course. He has a bit of a head start and\nhas to find his black market weapons dealer and get back away to the woods\nwith the cops after him.\n\nI think that one is pretty explicit. I love the very last bit: classic Wolfe.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, very few criminal shootings are from a distance or with a rifle\n(same thing). So it's always going to be point-blank shootings (of\nstrangers or not) vs stabbings or beatings (of strangers or not).\nStabbings are usually motivated by rage, because you get the victim's\nblood all over you. You can casually shoot the storekeeper because he\nlooked at you funny, or shoot him in a panic because you lost your nerve.\n\nI'd like to actually mention a Gene Wolfe story. The Ziggurat from Strange\nTravelers always seemed to me to contain a healthy chunk of Wolfean\npsychology/politics. The protagonist hunts, lives alone, harbors some\nanger against women, and has to deal with aliens killing his son. If\nanyone has a point to prove about Wolfe and guns, look there.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:30:17 -0400\nFrom: John Watkins \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<93d4039f0903180830v56189c7fga2a36a216a22a3d2 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 11:24 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I generally agree with you. But it is known that guns make IMPERSONAL\nkilling easier and therefore, under the right conditions (the\nconditions\nbeing of greater importance) more common across the same situations.\nYou'll have fewer gratuitous shootings of mugging victims after they\nhave\nhanded over their wallets, for example. So it is a factor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While I don't doubt that guns can make killing more impersonal, I'm not so\nsure that your example is well-chosen. Point-blank gun killings, like\ngratuitious killings of mugging victims, are probably not especially\nimpersonall. Having talked to people who've killed with guns at point\nblank\nrange (soldiers), it's my impression that the experience is pretty\nharrowing.\n\nThen again, I expect a soldier is typically using something a little bit\nmore destructive than the typical mugger, so I might be wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090317-0, 03/17/2009\nTested on: 3/18/2009 12:06:25 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<560440.93645.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:22:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<13907.67.142.130.35.1237393190.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've got a friend who's been on the fence about reading New Sun for a few years. No amount of talk from me will get him to start it. Can anyone point to an easily accessible review that seems to do a nice job of enticing someone to get into it? This guy's patient, so length is no problem. In fact, I'd probably give him Clute's stuff from Stokes if I still had my copy.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C12106.7010300@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:27:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Mar 18, 2009, at 3:19 AM, Tim Walters wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the way: do you support private ownership of nuclear weapons?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See, that wasn't so hard." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5392.67.142.130.35.1237393691.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:28:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903180911gce7e1fck8a93db1fa90ed98@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is Wolfe, Dan'l, like it or not.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I wanted to have a lengthy discussion of RKBA politics, there are\nlists I could\ngo to for that. Can we get back to Wolfe please?\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4706.67.142.130.35.1237394174.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:36:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C12106.7010300@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are not incredibly useful weapons.\n\nThey are very useful for off-planet construction projects.\n\nI can make you a device, for a couple of thousand dollars, that should\nyield as much as a tactical nuke (say, 1000 tons of TNT). Maybe ten\nthousand dollars.\n\nYou use gasoline and liquid oxygen and a little bit of dynamite.\n\nYou don't even really need the LOX, but then the mechanism is more\ncomplicated.\n\nHere is a brief discussion of this fascinating class of modern weapons:\nhttp://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 3:19 AM, Tim Walters wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By the way: do you support private ownership of nuclear weapons?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See, that wasn't so hard.\n\n--\n\nTim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:45:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4706.67.142.130.35.1237394174.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I recommend that you undertake the practice described in Epictetus\n'Handbook': http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html is not the\nbest translation, but it will get you started. It has really helped me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagreed so much with the first paragraph's foundations that I didn't bother with the rest.\n\n\nAnd I see no reason to kill the thread. Not like there was anything going on here for a couple of weeks. Just ignore the thread if you don't care to read it. On a msg board I visit daily, I ignore 98% of the crap.\n\nI do figure that we'll all fail to convince each other of anything though. :(\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5523.67.142.130.35.1237395263.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:54:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I recommend that you undertake the practice described in Epictetus\n'Handbook': http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html is not the\nbest translation, but it will get you started. It has really helped me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagreed so much with the first paragraph's foundations that I didn't\nbother with the rest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remarkable, though I suppose not unsurprising.\n\nAh well, were you able to accept it you might find it useful. As it is I\nsuppose you will have to go through life having bad emotions in response\nto external stimuli." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I see no reason to kill the thread." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There isn't, really. Just some people like to feel that they have control\nover things that are external to them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Not like there was anything going\non here for a couple of weeks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Just ignore the thread if you don't care\nto read it. On a msg board I visit daily, I ignore 98% of the crap." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent advice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do figure that we'll all fail to convince each other of anything though.\n:(" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I have accomplished what I set out to accomplish. Now I am just\nwatching things work themselves out.\n\nWould you believe it, I have this guy insulting me in private email over\nit? He's no longer even trying to make a point: he is just calling me\nnames. Quite amusing.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<175949.4827.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:56:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<5523.67.142.130.35.1237395263.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There isn't, really. Just some people like to feel that they have control\nover things that are external to them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thus, guns.\n\nCouldn't resist...\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C1284A.80100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T16:58:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<175949.4827.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's a good one. Remind me how it ends ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:19:50 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <13907.67.142.130.35.1237393190.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nOr that one with the near-future woods bum who needs a new hunting rifle\nand goes on a reality show that puts tv cameras in his head and a\n$100,000, which the Feds want, of course. He has a bit of a head start and\nhas to find his black market weapons dealer and get back away to the woods\nwith the cops after him.\n\nI think that one is pretty explicit. I love the very last bit: classic Wolfe.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, very few criminal shootings are from a distance or with a rifle\n(same thing). So it's always going to be point-blank shootings (of\nstrangers or not) vs stabbings or beatings (of strangers or not).\nStabbings are usually motivated by rage, because you get the victim's\nblood all over you. You can casually shoot the storekeeper because he\nlooked at you funny, or shoot him in a panic because you lost your nerve.\n\nI'd like to actually mention a Gene Wolfe story. The Ziggurat from Strange\nTravelers always seemed to me to contain a healthy chunk of Wolfean\npsychology/politics. The protagonist hunts, lives alone, harbors some\nanger against women, and has to deal with aliens killing his son. If\nanyone has a point to prove about Wolfe and guns, look there.\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2489.67.142.130.35.1237395661.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:01:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<175949.4827.qm@web37605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's sort of funny, but it doesn't really hold up. You see, guns do give\nyou a measure of control over things that are external to you. Not very\nfine control, true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There isn't, really. Just some people like to feel that they have control\nover things that are external to them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus, guns.\n\nCouldn't resist...\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14155.67.142.130.35.1237395715.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:01:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C1284A.80100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not a happy ending. That wouldn't be appropriate.\n\nIt is a glorious ending.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, that's a good one. Remind me how it ends ...\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:19:50 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <13907.67.142.130.35.1237393190.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nOr that one with the near-future woods bum who needs a new hunting rifle\nand goes on a reality show that puts tv cameras in his head and a\n$100,000, which the Feds want, of course. He has a bit of a head start and\nhas to find his black market weapons dealer and get back away to the woods\nwith the cops after him.\n\nI think that one is pretty explicit. I love the very last bit: classic\nWolfe.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, very few criminal shootings are from a distance or with a rifle\n(same thing). So it's always going to be point-blank shootings (of\nstrangers or not) vs stabbings or beatings (of strangers or not).\nStabbings are usually motivated by rage, because you get the victim's\nblood all over you. You can casually shoot the storekeeper because he\nlooked at you funny, or shoot him in a panic because you lost your\nnerve.\n\nI'd like to actually mention a Gene Wolfe story. The Ziggurat from\nStrange\nTravelers always seemed to me to contain a healthy chunk of Wolfean\npsychology/politics. The protagonist hunts, lives alone, harbors some\nanger against women, and has to deal with aliens killing his son. If\nanyone has a point to prove about Wolfe and guns, look there.\n\n------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090317-0, 03/17/2009\nTested on: 3/18/2009 12:58:51 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C1294F.5060400@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:03:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<14155.67.142.130.35.1237395715.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And arrogant as well. Good on you, Josh. You have succeeded in stirring the pot, which was your goal. That says something about your emotional development, I think. \n\nOh, and please stop emailing me. Your attentions are not desired." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 11\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:54:23 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <5523.67.142.130.35.1237395263.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\n\n\nRemarkable, though I suppose not unsurprising.\n\nAh well, were you able to accept it you might find it useful. As it is I\nsuppose you will have to go through life having bad emotions in response\nto external stimuli.\n\n------------------------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do figure that we'll all fail to convince each other of anything though.\n :( " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nOh, I have accomplished what I set out to accomplish. Now I am just\nwatching things work themselves out.\n\nWould you believe it, I have this guy insulting me in private email over\nit? He's no longer even trying to make a point: he is just calling me\nnames. Quite amusing.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7805.67.142.130.35.1237395822.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:03:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C1294F.5060400@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And arrogant as well. Good on you, Josh. You have succeeded in stirring\nthe pot, which was your goal. That says something about your emotional\ndevelopment, I think.\n\nOh, and please stop emailing me. Your attentions are not desired.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 11\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:54:23 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <5523.67.142.130.35.1237395263.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\n\n\nRemarkable, though I suppose not unsurprising.\n\nAh well, were you able to accept it you might find it useful. As it is I\nsuppose you will have to go through life having bad emotions in response\nto external stimuli.\n\n------------------------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I do figure that we'll all fail to convince each other of anything\nthough.\n :(" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, I have accomplished what I set out to accomplish. Now I am just\nwatching things work themselves out.\n\nWould you believe it, I have this guy insulting me in private email over\nit? He's no longer even trying to make a point: he is just calling me\nnames. Quite amusing.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090317-0, 03/17/2009\nTested on: 3/18/2009 1:03:12 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2524.67.142.130.35.1237395943.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:05:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C1294F.5060400@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh I am certainly arrogant. One out of how-many-I-forget is not too bad.\n\nSome things are under your control, and some things are not. Whether or\nnot I mail you is not under your control. Whether or not you respond to me\nletters is, however.\n\nHave a blessed day,\n\nJosh\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And arrogant as well. Good on you, Josh. You have succeeded in stirring\nthe pot, which was your goal. That says something about your emotional\ndevelopment, I think.\n\nOh, and please stop emailing me. Your attentions are not desired.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 11\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:54:23 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <5523.67.142.130.35.1237395263.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\n\n\nRemarkable, though I suppose not unsurprising.\n\nAh well, were you able to accept it you might find it useful. As it is I\nsuppose you will have to go through life having bad emotions in response\nto external stimuli.\n\n------------------------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I do figure that we'll all fail to convince each other of anything\nthough.\n :(" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, I have accomplished what I set out to accomplish. Now I am just\nwatching things work themselves out.\n\nWould you believe it, I have this guy insulting me in private email over\nit? He's no longer even trying to make a point: he is just calling me\nnames. Quite amusing.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090317-0, 03/17/2009\nTested on: 3/18/2009 1:03:12 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903181008k461af5do87dd783130e79a4e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:08:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<2524.67.142.130.35.1237395943.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This thread is now officially unbecoming." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 1:05 PM, wrote:\nOh I am certainly arrogant. One out of how-many-I-forget is not too bad.\n\nSome things are under your control, and some things are not. Whether or\nnot I mail you is not under your control. Whether or not you respond to me\nletters is, however.\n\nHave a blessed day,\n\nJosh\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And arrogant as well. Good on you, Josh. You have succeeded in stirring\nthe pot, which was your goal. That says something about your emotional\ndevelopment, I think.\n\nOh, and please stop emailing me. Your attentions are not desired.\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 11\nDate: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:54:23 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <5523.67.142.130.35.1237395263.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\n\n\nRemarkable, though I suppose not unsurprising.\n\nAh well, were you able to accept it you might find it useful. As it is I\nsuppose you will have to go through life having bad emotions in response\nto external stimuli.\n\n------------------------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I do figure that we'll all fail to convince each other of anything\nthough.\n :(" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, I have accomplished what I set out to accomplish. Now I am just\nwatching things work themselves out.\n\nWould you believe it, I have this guy insulting me in private email over\nit? He's no longer even trying to make a point: he is just calling me\nnames. Quite amusing.\n\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090317-0, 03/17/2009\nTested on: 3/18/2009 1:03:12 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:18:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<560440.93645.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've got a friend who's been on the fence about reading New Sun for a few \nyears.\nNo amount of talk from me will get him to start it.\nCan anyone point to an easily accessible review that seems to do a nice job \nof\nenticing someone to get into it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that sort of thing can be forced. The guy who turned me on to \nWolfe started NS four times before gritting his teeth and pushing through \nit. After I read it, I was convinced that Wolfe was not a very good \nstory-teller but a phenomenal creator of worlds. It was only after reading \n\"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\" that I suddenly \"got\" Wolfe and decided he was \nprobably the best Sci-Fi writer period (that's exactly what I told people). \nI recommend you offer your friend FHoC or Peace or Soldier of the Mist or \nStrange Travellers or Endangered Species. Eventually, he'll find his way to \nTBotNS on his own.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:36:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903181008k461af5do87dd783130e79a4e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 09:54 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I recommend that you undertake the practice described in Epictetus\n'Handbook': http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html is not the\nbest translation, but it will get you started. It has really helped me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I disagreed so much with the first paragraph's foundations that I didn't\nbother with the rest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remarkable, though I suppose not unsurprising.\n\nAh well, were you able to accept it you might find it useful. As it is I\nsuppose you will have to go through life having bad emotions in response\nto external stimuli." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, actually I don't have a problem with that. I'm quite aware that I can't control external things. I just dont' agree with the can control / can't control items he listed. I'd switch categories on some of them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<410253.92468.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:41:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom and the Morals Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<9312.67.142.130.31.1237352483.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 3/17/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nBrunians: > >> You don't think kids should be trained to fight" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "when\nsomeone tries to molest them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry: > > I do, but I'm not a Christian.\n\nBrunians: > You think that Christians think that?\n\nI don't think I implied that. Whether I did or not, what\nI had in mind was that as I'm a non-Christian, my opinion\non this point is irrelevant to understanding /Pirate\nFreedom/, a book with an explicitly Christian background.\n\nAs it happens, I know a few Christians (Mennonites) who\nbelieve in non-resistance in general, or say they do, and\na number of Christians who clearly don't.\n\nObviously, Wolfe has some of his Christian characters\nbelieve that children shouldn't fight even to defend\nthemselves against molestation. However, /Pirate Freedom/\ntakes place in the future or in an alternate universe, and\nI don't know whether he's basing those characters on real\npriests." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As the statement came from\na Catholic priest, it surprised me greatly. Jesus\nsays in\nthe Sermon on the Mount that you shouldn't resist\nevil (Matt. 5:39)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He says 'turn the other cheek', that is, one time.\nHe doesn't say keep on\nturning again and again like some kind of bobbly-head\ncritter on the dashboard." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\n38 “You have heard that it was said, ?An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” 39 But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well. \n\n(Matt. 5, International Standard Version, chosen more or less\nat random.)\n\nJesus said not to resist an evildoer, period. Not to accept\nevil the first time and resist it the second. We're free to\ndisagree with what he said, and I do, but my question is what\nWolfe thinks.\n\nHowever, I learn (finally) that Father Chris's comments are\nconsistent with the Catholic Church's doctrine, at least\nas of 1912.\n\n\"While differing among themselves on some of the more\nsubtle and less practical points comprised in this topic,\nour moralists may be said to be unanimous on the main\nprinciples and their application regarding the right of\nself-defense.\n\n[skip \"Defense of life and person\" and \"Defense of property\"]\n\n\"Honor\n\n\"Since it is lawful to take life in the legitimate defense\nof one's material goods, it is evidently also lawful to do\nso in defense of chastity which is a good of a much higher\norder.\"\n\n[The paragraph goes on to say it's not lawful to kill in\ndefense of honor or reputation.]\n\nhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13691a.htm\n\nI don't know how Aquinas and others reconciled that with\nJesus's teachings, but apparently they did. So this makes\nme give less credence to the theory that Chris is\nsupposed to be an evil character, as suggested at\n\nhttp://community.livejournal.com/theinferior4/199336.html\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<11801.67.142.130.35.1237398264.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:44:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Best living writer in the American dialect of English. McCarthy and\nCrowley can be said to be in his class.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've got a friend who's been on the fence about reading New Sun for a\nfew\nyears.\nNo amount of talk from me will get him to start it.\nCan anyone point to an easily accessible review that seems to do a nice\njob\nof\nenticing someone to get into it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that sort of thing can be forced. The guy who turned me on\nto\nWolfe started NS four times before gritting his teeth and pushing through\nit. After I read it, I was convinced that Wolfe was not a very good\nstory-teller but a phenomenal creator of worlds. It was only after reading\n\"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\" that I suddenly \"got\" Wolfe and decided he\nwas\nprobably the best Sci-Fi writer period (that's exactly what I told\npeople).\nI recommend you offer your friend FHoC or Peace or Soldier of the Mist or\nStrange Travellers or Endangered Species. Eventually, he'll find his way\nto\nTBotNS on his own.\n\nJ\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903181049l7502b541k43dd0087ff11c1c5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:49:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom and the Morals Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<410253.92468.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Jerry Friedman\n wrote:\nI don't know how Aquinas and others reconciled that with\nJesus's teachings, but apparently they did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is lawful to use violence to protect one's goods and chastity. Jesus\nnever said it wasn't. However, Jesus called men to a higher standard\nthan the Law: He called them to moral perfection, and that means not\nresisting the evildoer." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903181049md8b35c8n473884e92282cc6a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:49:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom and the Morals Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<410253.92468.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry,\n\nMy understanding is that, to a 1st century Jew, the teaching about turning\nthe other cheek when slapped wouldn't be a teaching about self-defense at\nall--the slap wasn't a threat of physical injury so much as it was a\nprofound insult. A more equivalent saying today would be that if someone\nspits in your face, don't strike him, but wipe it off and offer your face\nagain.\n\nClearly it isn't difficult to differentiate between retributive punishement\n(\"eye for an eye\") and self-defense. Our law does it all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n--- On Tue, 3/17/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nBrunians: > >> You don't think kids should be trained to fight\nwhen\nsomeone tries to molest them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry: > > I do, but I'm not a Christian.\n\nBrunians: > You think that Christians think that?\n\nI don't think I implied that. Whether I did or not, what\nI had in mind was that as I'm a non-Christian, my opinion\non this point is irrelevant to understanding /Pirate\nFreedom/, a book with an explicitly Christian background.\n\nAs it happens, I know a few Christians (Mennonites) who\nbelieve in non-resistance in general, or say they do, and\na number of Christians who clearly don't.\n\nObviously, Wolfe has some of his Christian characters\nbelieve that children shouldn't fight even to defend\nthemselves against molestation. However, /Pirate Freedom/\ntakes place in the future or in an alternate universe, and\nI don't know whether he's basing those characters on real\npriests." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As the statement came from\na Catholic priest, it surprised me greatly. Jesus\nsays in\nthe Sermon on the Mount that you shouldn't resist\nevil (Matt. 5:39)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He says 'turn the other cheek', that is, one time.\nHe doesn't say keep on\nturning again and again like some kind of bobbly-head\ncritter on the dashboard." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\n38 “You have heard that it was said, ?An eye for an eye and a tooth for a\ntooth.” 39 But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary,\nwhoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.\n\n(Matt. 5, International Standard Version, chosen more or less\nat random.)\n\nJesus said not to resist an evildoer, period. Not to accept\nevil the first time and resist it the second. We're free to\ndisagree with what he said, and I do, but my question is what\nWolfe thinks.\n\nHowever, I learn (finally) that Father Chris's comments are\nconsistent with the Catholic Church's doctrine, at least\nas of 1912.\n\n\"While differing among themselves on some of the more\nsubtle and less practical points comprised in this topic,\nour moralists may be said to be unanimous on the main\nprinciples and their application regarding the right of\nself-defense.\n\n[skip \"Defense of life and person\" and \"Defense of property\"]\n\n\"Honor\n\n\"Since it is lawful to take life in the legitimate defense\nof one's material goods, it is evidently also lawful to do\nso in defense of chastity which is a good of a much higher\norder.\"\n\n[The paragraph goes on to say it's not lawful to kill in\ndefense of honor or reputation.]\n\nhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13691a.htm\n\nI don't know how Aquinas and others reconciled that with\nJesus's teachings, but apparently they did. So this makes\nme give less credence to the theory that Chris is\nsupposed to be an evil character, as suggested at\n\nhttp://community.livejournal.com/theinferior4/199336.html\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15345.67.142.130.35.1237398925.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:55:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I recommend that you undertake the practice described in Epictetus\n'Handbook': http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html is not the\nbest translation, but it will get you started. It has really helped me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I disagreed so much with the first paragraph's foundations that I\ndidn't bother with the rest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remarkable, though I suppose not unsurprising." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah well, were you able to accept it you might find it useful. As it is I\nsuppose you will have to go through life having bad emotions in response\nto external stimuli." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, actually I don't have a problem with that. I'm quite aware that I\ncan't control external things. I just dont' agree with the can control /\ncan't control items he listed. I'd switch categories on some of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I say, Mrs Carter's translation is not the best. I'd be happy to\ndiscuss this with you, off-list if you prefer, if you'd like to go into\nsome detail....\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<11563.67.142.130.35.1237399170.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T17:59:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom and the Morals Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903181049l7502b541k43dd0087ff11c1c5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Jerry Friedman\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know how Aquinas and others reconciled that with\nJesus's teachings, but apparently they did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is lawful to use violence to protect one's goods and chastity. Jesus\nnever said it wasn't. However, Jesus called men to a higher standard\nthan the Law: He called them to moral perfection, and that means not\nresisting the evildoer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I prefer my interpretation: turn one cheek one time, then do what needs to\nbe done to the bastard, and may God have mercy on his soul.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<232699.30382.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:03:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<15345.67.142.130.35.1237398925.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He doesn't want dumbass kids and or gangbangers breaking into his house and stealing his guns.\n\nDoggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWhat?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:09:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<10623.67.142.130.26.1237379356.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for your help, although I think you're forgetting that conversation has its own set of expectations and responsibilities from all participating parties in order to make the coversation informative (or anything better than a waste of time). I've largely just been holding up a mirror - you are quite uncooperative conversationally, for reasons I shouldn't have to spell out, and then you get indignant about the communication breakdown which you yourself caused. Of course there's nothing YOU can do about all that, because you can't help it if your conversations go awry, right? It's just the hippies and the bad people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 08:29:16 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, you can get by on passive-aggressive insinuations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am sorry, you are misusing the term 'passive aggressive'. It does not\nmean what you think it means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "___\nPassive-aggressive behavior is passive, sometimes obstructionist\nresistance to following through with expectations in interpersonal or\noccupational situations. It can manifest itself as learned helplessness,\nprocrastination, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or\ndeliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is\n(often explicitly) responsible.\n---\n\nI am so very glad that I could be of service in helping to correct ypur\nmisuse of this term of art.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0A86D4B0-F1A6-446E-9F9D-1A710A19D087@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:12:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<11801.67.142.130.35.1237398264.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 12:44 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nBest living writer in the American dialect of English. McCarthy and\nCrowley can be said to be in his class." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't forget Pynchon!\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:13:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<12659.72.171.0.145.1237384001.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But how can this be? It is basically illegal to own a weapon in San\nFrancisco." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How old are you, man?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm 34. why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a surprise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and legal, illegal. meh. it's obviously pretty easy for people to get\nguns if they want one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So why do you want to pass laws against them? It would be terribly\ninconvenient for me and a lot of other people. You don't like me or\nsomething? You got beef? I owe you money?\n\nIf you acknowledge that the laws are meaningless, why insist upon having\nthem?\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The existence of a law (in the sense of a law of ours, not a law of nature) does not prohibit the possibility of a thing, it introduces the expectation of certain consequences if its violation should be caught.\n\nGlad I could help you clear up this ambiguity with a very difficult to understand word." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14217.67.142.130.35.1237400227.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:17:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<232699.30382.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He doesn't want dumbass kids and or gangbangers breaking into his house\nand stealing his guns." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course criminals, by definition, aren't very bright, but why would one\nchoose to break into a house where one knew that the residents were armed?\nEven if you went with overwhelming force, you have to assume that at least\none or two of you are going to die.\n\nIf they go when he is not there, I guess I am assuming that he stores his\nweapons properly when he is not home. So what do the kiddies do if they\nare not professional safecrackers (there are almost none of these around\nanymore)? Bring a forklift and a flatbed trailer?\n\nI suppose that if you are in one of those states that make you store the\nguns in one safe and the bullets in another and so on they might figure\nthey can get in before you can arm yourself. Dummy you for following the\nstupid law. Everyone I have ever known who has been home invaded knew that\nit was likely to happen, and really had no one to blame but themselves if\nthey weren't carrying when it did happen.\n\nMost gang members are into selling dope, not burglarizing. There's some\nmafia types who do hijacking and such. These are high-end criminals,\nthough it would be an exagerration in many cases to call them intelligent.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Crossley", "address": "ishmael at drizzle.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:19:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<0A86D4B0-F1A6-446E-9F9D-1A710A19D087@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 12:44 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Best living writer in the American dialect of English. McCarthy and\nCrowley can be said to be in his class.\n\nInviting the question as to the best living writer in other English dialects,\nwhich is a much more interesting conversation than more gun talk . . .\n\nJames" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:19:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't forget Pynchon!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been needing the push to actually get past pg 300 of Gravity's Rainbow.\ntried three times, never got further.\nis there a reason to care within all that psychedelic listing of detail?\nI love the way Burroughs will ramble on a jag, he's always entertaining or perverse. With Pynchon I kept wondering why I should even care.\nhurm...\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4190.67.142.130.35.1237400724.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:25:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that the conversation has broken down because one of the\nparticipants was having bad emotions which interfered with his or her\nclear thought and caused him or her to act in various dysfunctional ways.\n\nIn the post appended below your interesting paragraph, I was merely\ncorrecting your mistaken usage of a term of art. I appreciated it, when I\nwas thus corrected.\n\nOnce again, I do wish you the very best.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for your help, although I think you're forgetting that conversation\nhas its own set of expectations and responsibilities from all\nparticipating parties in order to make the coversation informative (or\nanything better than a waste of time). I've largely just been holding up a\nmirror - you are quite uncooperative conversationally, for reasons I\nshouldn't have to spell out, and then you get indignant about the\ncommunication breakdown which you yourself caused. Of course there's\nnothing YOU can do about all that, because you can't help it if your\nconversations go awry, right? It's just the hippies and the bad people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 08:29:16 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No, you can get by on passive-aggressive insinuations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am sorry, you are misusing the term 'passive aggressive'. It does not\nmean what you think it means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "___\nPassive-aggressive behavior is passive, sometimes obstructionist\nresistance to following through with expectations in interpersonal or\noccupational situations. It can manifest itself as learned helplessness,\nprocrastination, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or\ndeliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one\nis\n(often explicitly) responsible.\n---\n\nI am so very glad that I could be of service in helping to correct ypur\nmisuse of this term of art.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15415.67.142.130.35.1237400769.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:26:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<0A86D4B0-F1A6-446E-9F9D-1A710A19D087@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 12:44 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Best living writer in the American dialect of English. McCarthy and\nCrowley can be said to be in his class." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't forget Pynchon!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Believe me, I did not forget Pynchon.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<452767.83238.qm@web63904.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:34:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<560440.93645.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How dare you post an actual Wolfe question to this list!\n\nBut anyway, I'm interested in such a pointer as well, for various friends who are in the same situation.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: (urth) An Actual Wolfe Question\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 12:22 PM\n\nI've got a friend who's been on the fence about reading New Sun for a\nfew years. No amount of talk from me will get him to start it. Can anyone point\nto an easily accessible review that seems to do a nice job of enticing someone\nto get into it? This guy's patient, so length is no problem. In fact,\nI'd probably give him Clute's stuff from Stokes if I still had my copy.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5274.67.142.130.35.1237401428.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:37:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's these pre-adolescent girl scat S&M scenes which some people might\nfind erotic. Not that I want to hang around any of those people.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don't forget Pynchon!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been needing the push to actually get past pg 300 of Gravity's\nRainbow.\ntried three times, never got further.\nis there a reason to care within all that psychedelic listing of detail?\nI love the way Burroughs will ramble on a jag, he's always entertaining or\nperverse. With Pynchon I kept wondering why I should even care.\nhurm...\n~witz\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<32310F67-E9E0-4432-9123-5E7BD93F1CD2@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:37:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<14217.67.142.130.35.1237400227.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:17 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOf course criminals, by definition, aren't very bright," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bernie Madoff always struck me as a rather smart man.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2CDFBB01-9115-4FEA-8A1C-F8F032AF6EDB@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:38:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don't forget Pynchon!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been needing the push to actually get past pg 300 of Gravity's \nRainbow.\ntried three times, never got further.\nis there a reason to care within all that psychedelic listing of \ndetail?\nI love the way Burroughs will ramble on a jag, he's always \nentertaining or perverse. With Pynchon I kept wondering why I should \neven care.\nhurm..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find there's a reason to care.\n\nYMMV.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9FABD92D-AAF5-4B51-92FF-9EEBB0A67CCE@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:39:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<5274.67.142.130.35.1237401428.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:37 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nThere's these pre-adolescent girl scat S&M scenes which some people \nmight\nfind erotic. Not that I want to hang around any of those people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be fair, the pedophilia and the scat S&M scenes are actually two \nDIFFERENT ones.\n\nNot, I suppose, that I'm doing a good job of selling _GR_.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10204.67.142.130.35.1237401991.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:46:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<32310F67-E9E0-4432-9123-5E7BD93F1CD2@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:17 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course criminals, by definition, aren't very bright," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bernie Madoff always struck me as a rather smart man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Use of past tense noted.\n\nHe wasn't smart enough not to get involved in a Ponzi scheme.\n\nI liked him deciding to be a good Jew about it and come clean. If he\nhadn't, you know, they'd have put him in white collar prison and we would\nbe hearing about the sad accident that happened to him one day. Now he\ngets to go to real prison with the blackamoors and be a tough Jew, the\nbrothers will get a kick out of it. He will give them financial advice,\nand I bet you it will be some better than the financial advice he has been\ngiving out up until this point. He plays his cards right he should do some\npretty reasonable time, as these things go.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:46:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<9FABD92D-AAF5-4B51-92FF-9EEBB0A67CCE@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Adam Thornton [mailto:adam at io.com]\nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 11:39 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) An Actual Wolfe Question\n\n\nOn Mar 18, 2009, at 1:37 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's these pre-adolescent girl scat S&M scenes which some people \nmight\nfind erotic. Not that I want to hang around any of those people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To be fair, the pedophilia and the scat S&M scenes are actually two \nDIFFERENT ones.\n\nNot, I suppose, that I'm doing a good job of selling _GR_.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "haha.\nyeah, I was unclear if the pre-adolescent scat s&m was a pro or con.\nextreme perversion in lit: I like it in Burroughs, I like it in Bataille, but I've seen no reason to read De Sade.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:49:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<10204.67.142.130.35.1237401991.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]\nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 11:46 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:17 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course criminals, by definition, aren't very bright," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Bernie Madoff always struck me as a rather smart man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Use of past tense noted.\n\nHe wasn't smart enough not to get involved in a Ponzi scheme." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's said he knew what he was doing and he knew that \"this day would come\", so I guess the only stupid thing, in terms of his own benefit, was to not die or go into hiding before that day came. What an asshole." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1FCB888E-F04A-4B58-80A7-CFDD1FC78CD6@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:50:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<10204.67.142.130.35.1237401991.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:46 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nBernie Madoff always struck me as a rather smart man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Use of past tense noted.\n\nHe wasn't smart enough not to get involved in a Ponzi scheme." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The decades of the Good Life might be worth the last few years on the \ninside. It's at least plausible that it's a rational trade. Was he \ndumb? That's for him to say.\n\nOr, hey, take the \"late\" Ken Lay. I mean, even if he actually *is* \ndead: a bunch of years being really really rich. And then, at worst, \nan early exit. How tragic. At best, he's drinking margaritas on a \nbeach someplace tropical, laughing at all the rest of us.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<136517.93555.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:53:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<452767.83238.qm@web63904.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "if (typeof YAHOO == \"undefined\") {\n var YAHOO = {};\n}\nYAHOO.Shortcuts = YAHOO.Shortcuts || {};\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.hasSensitiveText = true;\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.sensitivityType = [\"sensitive_news_terms\", \"adult\"];\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.doUlt = false;\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.location = \"us\";\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.document_id = 0;\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.document_type = \"\";\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.document_title = \"Re: (urth) An Actual Wolfe Question\";\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.document_publish_date = \"\";\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.document_author = \"hammstu at sbcglobal.net\";\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.document_url = \"\";\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.document_tags = \"\";\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.document_language = \"english\";\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.annotationSet = {\n\"lw_1237402387_0\": {\n\"text\": \"myspace.com/stuhamm\",\n\"extended\": 0,\n\"startchar\": 697,\n\"endchar\": 715,\n\"start\": 697,\n\"end\": 715,\n\"extendedFrom\": \"\",\n\"predictedCategory\": \"\",\n\"predictionProbability\": \"0\",\n\"weight\": 1,\n\"relScore\": 0,\n\"type\": [\"shortcuts:/us/place/virtual/web_site\"],\n\"category\": [\"IDENTIFIER\"],\n\"wikiId\": \"\",\n\"relatedWikiIds\": [],\n\"relatedEntities\": [],\n\"showOnClick\": [],\n\"context\": \"the \\u0022Dr Death...\\u0022 book got me hooked ~S~ Skype stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm stuarthamm.net --- On Wed, 3/18/09, Fred Kiesche \\u003crecursive_loop at yahoo.com\\u003e wrote: From: Fred\",\n\"metaData\": {\n\"visible\": \"true\"\n}\n },\n\"lw_1237402387_1\": {\n\"text\": \"stuarthamm.net\",\n\"extended\": 0,\n\"startchar\": 893,\n\"endchar\": 906,\n\"start\": 893,\n\"end\": 906,\n\"extendedFrom\": \"\",\n\"predictedCategory\": \"\",\n\"predictionProbability\": \"0\",\n\"weight\": 1,\n\"relScore\": 0,\n\"type\": [\"shortcuts:/us/place/virtual/web_site\"],\n\"category\": [\"IDENTIFIER\"],\n\"wikiId\": \"\",\n\"relatedWikiIds\": [],\n\"relatedEntities\": [],\n\"showOnClick\": [],\n\"context\": \"Dr Death...\\u0022 book got me hooked ~S~ Skype stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm stuarthamm.net --- On Wed, 3/18/09, Fred Kiesche \\u003crecursive_loop at yahoo.com\\u003e wrote: From: Fred Kiesche\",\n\"metaData\": {\n\"visible\": \"true\"\n}\n },\n\"lw_1237402387_2\": {\n\"text\": \"recursive_loop at yahoo.com\",\n\"extended\": 0,\n\"startchar\": 997,\n\"endchar\": 1020,\n\"start\": 997,\n\"end\": 1020,\n\"extendedFrom\": \"\",\n\"predictedCategory\": \"\",\n\"predictionProbability\": \"0\",\n\"weight\": 1,\n\"relScore\": 0,\n\"type\": [\"shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/email_address\"],\n\"category\": [\"IDENTIFIER\"],\n\"wikiId\": \"\",\n\"relatedWikiIds\": [],\n\"relatedEntities\": [],\n\"showOnClick\": [],\n\"context\": \"S~ Skype stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm stuarthamm.net --- On Wed, 3/18/09, Fred Kiesche \\u003crecursive_loop at yahoo.com\\u003e wrote: From: Fred Kiesche \\u003crecursive_loop at yahoo.com\\u003e Subject: Re: (urth) An Actual\",\n\"metaData\": {\n\"visible\": \"true\"\n}\n },\n\"lw_1237402387_3\": {\n\"text\": \"urth at lists.urth.net\",\n\"extended\": 0,\n\"startchar\": 1281,\n\"endchar\": 1299,\n\"start\": 1281,\n\"end\": 1299,\n\"extendedFrom\": \"\",\n\"predictedCategory\": \"\",\n\"predictionProbability\": \"0\",\n\"weight\": 1,\n\"relScore\": 0,\n\"type\": [\"shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/email_address\"],\n\"category\": [\"IDENTIFIER\"],\n\"wikiId\": \"\",\n\"relatedWikiIds\": [],\n\"relatedEntities\": [],\n\"showOnClick\": [],\n\"context\": \"urth) An Actual Wolfe Question To: \\u0022The Urth Mailing List\\u0022 \\u003curth at lists.urth.net\\u003e Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 11:34 AM How dare you\",\n\"metaData\": {\n\"visible\": \"true\"\n}\n },\n\"lw_1237402387_4\": {\n\"text\": \"Duke of Gloucester\",\n\"extended\": 0,\n\"startchar\": 1818,\n\"endchar\": 1835,\n\"start\": 1818,\n\"end\": 1835,\n\"extendedFrom\": \"\",\n\"predictedCategory\": \"\",\n\"predictionProbability\": \"0\",\n\"weight\": 0.231708,\n\"relScore\": 1.35958,\n\"type\": [\"shortcuts:/us/tag/other/wiki\"],\n\"category\": [\"WIKI\"],\n\"wikiId\": \"Duke_of_Gloucester\",\n\"relatedWikiIds\": [],\n\"relatedEntities\": [],\n\"showOnClick\": [],\n\"context\": \"damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\\u0022 (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and\",\n\"metaData\": {\n\"visible\": \"false\"\n}\n },\n\"lw_1237402387_5\": {\n\"text\": \"The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire\",\n\"extended\": 0,\n\"startchar\": 1906,\n\"endchar\": 1945,\n\"start\": 1906,\n\"end\": 1945,\n\"extendedFrom\": \"Roman Empire\",\n\"predictedCategory\": \"\",\n\"predictionProbability\": \"0\",\n\"weight\": 0.3453,\n\"relScore\": 4.08661,\n\"type\": [\"shortcuts:/concept\"],\n\"category\": [\"CONCEPT\"],\n\"wikiId\": \"The_History_of_the_Decline_and_Fall_of_the_Roman_Empire\",\n\"relatedWikiIds\": [],\n\"relatedEntities\": [],\n\"showOnClick\": [],\n\"context\": \"Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman\\u0027s Children and TexasBestGrok! --- On Wed, 3/18/09\",\n\"metaData\": {\n\"visible\": \"true\"\n}\n },\n\"lw_1237402387_6\": {\n\"text\": \"The Lensman\\u0027s Children\",\n\"extended\": 0,\n\"startchar\": 2052,\n\"endchar\": 2077,\n\"start\": 2052,\n\"end\": 2077,\n\"extendedFrom\": \"\",\n\"predictedCategory\": \"\",\n\"predictionProbability\": \"0\",\n\"weight\": 1,\n\"relScore\": 0,\n\"type\": [\"shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/hyperlink/http\"],\n\"category\": [\"IDENTIFIER\"],\n\"wikiId\": \"\",\n\"relatedWikiIds\": [],\n\"relatedEntities\": [],\n\"showOnClick\": [],\n\"context\": \"The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) 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Blogging at The Lensman\\u0027s Children and TexasBestGrok! --- On Wed, 3/18/09, Craig Brewer \\u003ccnbrewer at yahoo.com\\u003e wrote: From: Craig Brewer\",\n\"metaData\": {\n\"linkHref\": \"http://texasbestgrok.mu.nu/\",\n\"linkProtocol\": \"http\",\n\"linkRel\": \"nofollow\",\n\"linkTarget\": \"_blank\",\n\"visible\": \"true\"\n}\n },\n\"lw_1237402387_8\": {\n\"text\": \"Craig Brewer\",\n\"extended\": 0,\n\"startchar\": 2212,\n\"endchar\": 2223,\n\"start\": 2212,\n\"end\": 2223,\n\"extendedFrom\": \"\",\n\"predictedCategory\": \"\",\n\"predictionProbability\": \"0\",\n\"weight\": 0.359763,\n\"relScore\": 2.76063,\n\"type\": [\"shortcuts:/us/tag/other/entity_db/person\", \"shortcuts:/us/tag/other/wiki\"],\n\"category\": [\"WIKI\"],\n\"wikiId\": \"Craig_Brewer\",\n\"relatedWikiIds\": [],\n\"relatedEntities\": [],\n\"showOnClick\": [],\n\"context\": \"Blogging at The Lensman\\u0027s Children and TexasBestGrok! --- On Wed, 3/18/09, Craig Brewer \\u003ccnbrewer at yahoo.com\\u003e wrote: From: Craig Brewer \\u003ccnbrewer at yahoo.com\\u003e Subject: (urth) An Actual\",\n\"metaData\": {\n\"visible\": \"true\"\n}\n },\n\"lw_1237402387_9\": {\n\"text\": \"cnbrewer at yahoo.com\",\n\"extended\": 0,\n\"startchar\": 2232,\n\"endchar\": 2249,\n\"start\": 2232,\n\"end\": 2249,\n\"extendedFrom\": \"\",\n\"predictedCategory\": \"\",\n\"predictionProbability\": \"0\",\n\"weight\": 1,\n\"relScore\": 0,\n\"type\": [\"shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/email_address\"],\n\"category\": [\"IDENTIFIER\"],\n\"wikiId\": \"\",\n\"relatedWikiIds\": [],\n\"relatedEntities\": [],\n\"showOnClick\": [],\n\"context\": \"The Lensman\\u0027s Children and TexasBestGrok! --- On Wed, 3/18/09, Craig Brewer \\u003ccnbrewer at yahoo.com\\u003e wrote: From: Craig Brewer \\u003ccnbrewer at yahoo.com\\u003e Subject: (urth) An Actual Wolfe\",\n\"metaData\": {\n\"visible\": \"true\"\n}\n },\n\"lw_1237402387_10\": {\n\"text\": \"urth at urth.net\",\n\"extended\": 0,\n\"startchar\": 3063,\n\"endchar\": 3075,\n\"start\": 3063,\n\"end\": 3075,\n\"extendedFrom\": \"\",\n\"predictedCategory\": \"\",\n\"predictionProbability\": \"0\",\n\"weight\": 1,\n\"relScore\": 0,\n\"type\": [\"shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/email_address\"],\n\"category\": [\"IDENTIFIER\"],\n\"wikiId\": \"\",\n\"relatedWikiIds\": [],\n\"relatedEntities\": [],\n\"showOnClick\": [],\n\"context\": \"still had my copy. _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information\",\n\"metaData\": {\n\"visible\": \"true\"\n}\n },\n\"lw_1237402387_11\": {\n\"text\": \"http://www.urth.net\",\n\"extended\": 0,\n\"startchar\": 3103,\n\"endchar\": 3121,\n\"start\": 3103,\n\"end\": 3121,\n\"extendedFrom\": \"\",\n\"predictedCategory\": \"\",\n\"predictionProbability\": \"0\",\n\"weight\": 1,\n\"relScore\": 0,\n\"type\": [\"shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/URL\"],\n\"category\": [\"IDENTIFIER\"],\n\"wikiId\": \"\",\n\"relatedWikiIds\": [],\n\"relatedEntities\": [],\n\"showOnClick\": [],\n\"context\": \"my copy. _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net\",\n\"metaData\": {\n\"visible\": \"true\"\n}\n }\n};\nYAHOO.Shortcuts.headerID = \"4dda2828b34e534fd773cd969c053e3b\";\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nI think the first and last stories in \"Strange Travelers\"...\"B Jam\". takes some work to figure out what's going on...and \"Ain't we...\" twists thinks all around.\nThat and the \"Dr Death...\" book got me hooked\n\n~S~\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Fred Kiesche wrote:\n\nFrom: Fred Kiesche \nSubject: Re: (urth) An Actual Wolfe Question\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 11:34 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nHow dare you post an actual Wolfe question to this list!\n\nBut anyway, I'm interested in such a pointer as well, for various friends who are in the same situation.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: (urth) An Actual Wolfe Question\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 12:22 PM\n\nI've got a friend who's been on the fence about reading New Sun for a\nfew years. No amount of talk from me will get him to start it. Can anyone point\nto an easily accessible review that seems to do a nice job of enticing someone\nto get into it? This guy's patient, so length is no problem. In fact,\nI'd probably give him Clute's stuff from Stokes if I still had my copy.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T18:56:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<11930.72.171.0.143.1237286160.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm going to chime in late, well after the thread has outlived its\nusefulness, and share that I believe the Amendment was intended to keep arms\namong the citizenry to enable guerilla warfare against a tyrannical domestic\ngovernment, or a foreign one.\n\nI find that the argument that \"the government has far better weapons\ntherefore it is moot\" is automatic and rhetorical. I wish people who raised\nthat argument would be honest that they make an assumption that the only\npossible scenario is one where the erstwhile evil government has total\ncontrol of all of its armed forces.\n\nBut more than anything I dislike the gun ownership movement in the US for\nmaintaining that the Amendment actual provides the right to keep and bear\narms for personal defense of self and home against individual crime. If you\nown weapons, and the lives of your family are threatened, by all means shoot\nfirst and live with the legal and moral consequences. But do not insist that\nyou have the inherent right to own a gun to protect yourself against home\ninvasions. This is not provided for by the Amendment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 5:36 AM, wrote:\nThis is a good opportunity to start the discussion that I have been\nwanting to have.\n\nA prominent feature of Wolfe's politics, which appears time and time again\nin his stories is his strong approval of the 2nd Amendment of the United\nStates constitution, which recognizes the inherent right of the people to\nkeep and bear arms, and his strong disapproval of the disarmement of the\ncitizenry.\n\nWolfe's readers are a diverse, and an international bunch, and I for one\nam curious to hear the views of the various literate and intelligent\nreaders who frequent this list upon this subject, here in the early 21st\ncentury, some 90 years into the international disarm-the-citizens campaign\nthat began after WWI.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Allan Anderson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What do you mean about the militias? I'm not sure I get that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The entire \"a government should be afraid of its people\" idea, where the\npeople should be armed and ready to take back control of their country\nwhen the government oversteps its bounds and becomes a burden more than\na benefit.\nOur current militia movement takes justification in the @nd Amendment to\nthe US constitution as statements of the founding fathers like Thomas\nJefferson:\n * I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good\nthing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.\n o Letter to James Madison (January 30, 1787); referring to\nShays' Rebellion Lipscomb & Bergh ed. 6:65\n\n * God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a\nrebellion.... What country before ever existed a century and half\nwithout a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if\ntheir rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve\nthe spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them\nright as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost\nin a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to\ntime with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.\nLetter to William Stevens Smith (November 13, 1787), quoted in Padover's\nJefferson On Democracy\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15583.67.142.130.35.1237403066.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:04:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1FCB888E-F04A-4B58-80A7-CFDD1FC78CD6@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All that occurs is according to the Will of God.\n\nGod is merciful, compassionate.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:46 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Bernie Madoff always struck me as a rather smart man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Use of past tense noted.\n\nHe wasn't smart enough not to get involved in a Ponzi scheme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The decades of the Good Life might be worth the last few years on the\ninside. It's at least plausible that it's a rational trade. Was he\ndumb? That's for him to say.\n\nOr, hey, take the \"late\" Ken Lay. I mean, even if he actually *is*\ndead: a bunch of years being really really rich. And then, at worst,\nan early exit. How tragic. At best, he's drinking margaritas on a\nbeach someplace tropical, laughing at all the rest of us.\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10903181230m328bd826q69e5a50891e9528f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:30:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don't forget Pynchon!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been needing the push to actually get past pg 300 of Gravity's Rainbow.\ntried three times, never got further.\nis there a reason to care within all that psychedelic listing of detail?\nI love the way Burroughs will ramble on a jag, he's always entertaining or perverse. With Pynchon I kept wondering why I should even care.\nhurm...\n~witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read GR; the only Pynchon books I've read are The Crying of\nLot 49 and Against the Day (which is actually a lot longer than GR). I\nthink you might enjoy Lot 49 - it's less than two hundred pages,\nthere's not nearly as much detail, and there are several scenes that\nmade me laugh out loud.\n\nThere's also one scene in Against the Day that had me laughing for\nabout five minutes on end, though it was a variation on one of\nPynchon's kinky sex scenes, so YMMV. I think people who have read AtD\nmay know the scene I refer to?\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10903181235k4a4e9aealfde72fc5656aaaa9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:35:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 12:34 AM, Son of Witz\n wrote:\n\nAs a complete aside, it's quite interesting to talk about this stuff with\ny'all. ?It's too easy to end up in an echo chamber, especially when you live\nin SF. ?It's hard to even find self-proclaimed conservatives here. ?I'm\npretty damn liberal, but living in SF long enough will make you gag at some\nof the thoughtless knee-jerk (not to mention arrogant) liberal attitudes.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was in SF a few weeks back and, though I expected it to be very\nliberal, I was surprised by some of the goings-on I heard about. The\ntrip I was on visited Alcatraz. Great, and interesting from a\nhistorical perspective. Only later did I read about the plan - THAT\nACTUALLY MADE THE CITY BALLOT - to tear down the prison and replace it\nwith a peace center. Only 72% of people in the city voted against it.\n\nhttp://www.globalpeacefoundation.org/AlcatrazConversion.html\n\n-Matt, too much of a historian to countenance demolishing historic sites" } ] }, { "message_id": "<47B25B6C-1310-409B-A54B-62DE5E0B0303@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:41:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10903181230m328bd826q69e5a50891e9528f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 2:30 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nThere's also one scene in Against the Day that had me laughing for\nabout five minutes on end, though it was a variation on one of\nPynchon's kinky sex scenes, so YMMV. I think people who have read AtD\nmay know the scene I refer to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There were several funny kinky sex scenes in AtD. I know which one I \nwould pick.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10903181246j5f2d9159p3851c99a19652489@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T19:46:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<47B25B6C-1310-409B-A54B-62DE5E0B0303@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nThere were several funny kinky sex scenes in AtD. ?I know which one I would\npick.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(SPOILER ALERT OF SORTS)\n-\n-\n-\n-\n-\n-\n-\n-\n-\n-\n-\n-\n-\n-\nThe one with the dog? \"Reader, she bit him.\"\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<985385.22624.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T20:21:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom and the Morals Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903181049md8b35c8n473884e92282cc6a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 3/18/09, John Watkins wrote:\nJerry,\n\nMy understanding is that, to a 1st century Jew, the\nteaching about turning\nthe other cheek when slapped wouldn't be a teaching\nabout self-defense at\nall--the slap wasn't a threat of physical injury so\nmuch as it was a profound insult." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd say that's still true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A more equivalent saying today would be\nthat if someone\nspits in your face, don't strike him, but wipe it off\nand offer your face again.\n\nClearly it isn't difficult to differentiate between\nretributive punishement\n(\"eye for an eye\") and self-defense. Our law\ndoes it all the time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd have thought the key statement was not to resist\nevildoers, which would not be limited to the examples about\nturning the other cheek, giving your cloak along with\nyour shirt, and walking the second mile. But thanks to\nyou and others who explained how this passage doesn't\nhave to be taken as forbidding self-defense.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<33758.198.1237409653.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T20:54:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10903181235k4a4e9aealfde72fc5656aaaa9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only later did I read about the plan - THAT\nACTUALLY MADE THE CITY BALLOT - to tear down the prison and replace it\nwith a peace center. Only 72% of people in the city voted against it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The text of the proposition was:\n\n\"Shall it be City policy that the City should explore and facilitate the\nacquisition of Alcatraz Island from the United States Government to\ntransform it into a Global Peace Center?\"\n\nIn other words, it wouldn't have done squat, even if by some miracle it\nhad passed.\n\nI'm not sure if that makes it more or less ridiculous." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T21:07:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<33758.198.1237409653.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Tim Walters [mailto:walters at doubtfulpalace.com]\nSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 01:54 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Only later did I read about the plan - THAT\nACTUALLY MADE THE CITY BALLOT - to tear down the prison and replace it\nwith a peace center. Only 72% of people in the city voted against it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The text of the proposition was:\n\n\"Shall it be City policy that the City should explore and facilitate the\nacquisition of Alcatraz Island from the United States Government to\ntransform it into a Global Peace Center?\"\n\nIn other words, it wouldn't have done squat, even if by some miracle it\nhad passed.\n\nI'm not sure if that makes it more or less ridiculous.\n\n-- \nTim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I voted against it. Alcatraz brings in lots of morbid curiosity tourist dollars. Who the hell is gonna take a ferry out to a Global Peace Center. I mean, WTF is that anyway?\n\nI think most people just thought it would accomplish absolutely nothing.\n\nthere was another one I voted against, naming our waste processing plant after GW Bush. I wouldn't give him the honor.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7AB4EA64-C44D-43CD-A909-8385D3158D5D@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T21:30:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10903181246j5f2d9159p3851c99a19652489@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 18, 2009, at 2:46 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There were several funny kinky sex scenes in AtD. I know which one \nI would\npick.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(SPOILER ALERT OF SORTS)\n\nThe one with the dog? \"Reader, she bit him.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That actually wasn't the one I was thinking of.\n\nThere sure is a lot of transgressive sex in AtD. Even for Pynchon.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5562.67.142.130.38.1237412296.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T21:38:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<33758.198.1237409653.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's like Berkeley being a nuclear free zone.\n\nNo nuclear reactors in Berkeley! Except for the two or three they got at\nthe various physics schools at the University....\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Only later did I read about the plan - THAT\nACTUALLY MADE THE CITY BALLOT - to tear down the prison and replace it\nwith a peace center. Only 72% of people in the city voted against it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The text of the proposition was:\n\n\"Shall it be City policy that the City should explore and facilitate the\nacquisition of Alcatraz Island from the United States Government to\ntransform it into a Global Peace Center?\"\n\nIn other words, it wouldn't have done squat, even if by some miracle it\nhad passed.\n\nI'm not sure if that makes it more or less ridiculous.\n\n--\nTim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3284.67.142.130.38.1237412527.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-18T21:42:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, I voted against it. Alcatraz brings in lots of morbid curiosity\ntourist dollars. Who the hell is gonna take a ferry out to a Global Peace\nCenter. I mean, WTF is that anyway?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think most people just thought it would accomplish absolutely nothing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there was another one I voted against, naming our waste processing plant\nafter GW Bush. I wouldn't give him the honor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Besides, you are going to have to save something for Obama, when the\nAfghan war is entering its tenth year there, a little bit down the line\nthere.\n\nRemember, this is a guy whose hero is Abe Lincoln. Some things about the\nLincoln administration might give pause.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<24646.198.1237415020.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-03-18T22:23:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Actual Wolfe Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Inviting the question as to the best living writer in other English\ndialects,\nwhich is a much more interesting conversation than more gun talk . . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No way have I read enough Scots lit to have an opinion on who's \"best\",\nbut I really like Alasdair Gray and James Kelman in the Scottish and\nExtremely Scottish divisions, respectively. I'll qualify the Kelman\nrecommendation with the caveat that I've only read one of his books\n(_Greyhound For Breakfast_).\n\nOn the American side, I think Kelly Link is doing work that ranks with\nWolfe's best." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C231EB.4050204@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T11:52:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C10C93.5050103@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is there any reason to think that isn't included in the ownership \nfigure?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 \nassault rifles stored at private homes, mostly SIG 550 types. \nAdditionally, there are some 320,000 assault rifles and military pistols \nexempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire \nweapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only. In \naddition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small \narms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private \nhomes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million.\"\n\nThe high figure is lower than the rate from my original link, so clearly \nthese weapons were, in fact, included." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "then \"Less than half the per capita gun ownership of the U.S.\" can't be true" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C23398.7040508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T11:59:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gwern Branwen wrote:\nIf I may, it is threads like these that make me wish Urth had a 'List\nSniper' along the lines of SL4's List Sniper: someone empowered to\nofficial declare a thread dead, and to enforce it by moderation &\nbans.\n\nIn this case, the thread has degenerated into boring and poorly-done\ndiscussions of a dozen topics in politics & ethics & sociology which\nhave nothing to do with Gene Wolfe, and can only exasperate or\nembitter people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nobody's being forced to read any of this, my dear." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8974.67.142.130.34.1237464256.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T12:04:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C231EB.4050204@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's another aspect of Gene Wolfe's politics which is mentioned\nprominently in many of his stories, and that is his intense distrust of\ngovernment. I assume that this is less controversial than his support of\nan armed citizenry. I am still a bit nonplussed that anyone would question\nthat still, but no matter. I am well known to be an extremely ignorant\nperson, knowing almost nothing (and trying hard to un-learn that little\nbit).\n\nI'd like to solicit a discussion of this particular aspect of his work.\nThe last one was quite lively, and some people did get their feelings\nhurt. Well, literary discussion is a tough business, and not meant for the\nfaint of heart. I hope that this discussion can be equally lively, but\nperhaps less fraught with emotional trauma for some of the participants.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C2380B.1040900@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T12:18:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom and the Morals Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903181049l7502b541k43dd0087ff11c1c5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Jerry Friedman\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know how Aquinas and others reconciled that with\nJesus's teachings, but apparently they did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is lawful to use violence to protect one's goods and chastity. Jesus\nnever said it wasn't. However, Jesus called men to a higher standard\nthan the Law: He called them to moral perfection, and that means not\nresisting the evildoer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure that follows. It might be a fine literal distinction below \nthe level of resolution of the translation, but \"not resisting\" and \"not \nrestraining\" are different concepts morally. \"not restraining the \nevildoer\" implies don't presume to judge the rightness of other people's \nbusiness, leave enforcement of man's law to Caesar and the other \ntemporal authorities. I believe \"resisting the evildoer\" in the sense of \n protecting yourself and your dependents against other people is \nscripturally supported by turning the other cheek to avoid a retribution \nspiral, and by the millstone verse that overtly says extreme measures \nare preferable to submission when protecting your children." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C23961.6080502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T12:24:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<32310F67-E9E0-4432-9123-5E7BD93F1CD2@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Mar 18, 2009, at 1:17 PM, brunians at brunians.org \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course criminals, by definition, aren't very bright," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bernie Madoff always struck me as a rather smart man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Confessing on camera wasn't terribly advancing of his self-interest." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C24155.5010502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T12:57:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cliff Judge wrote:\n\nI'm going to chime in late, well after the thread has outlived its \nusefulness, and share that I believe the Amendment was intended to keep \narms among the citizenry to enable guerilla warfare against a tyrannical \ndomestic government, or a foreign one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find that the argument that \"the government has far better weapons \ntherefore it is moot\" is automatic and rhetorical. I wish people who \nraised that argument would be honest that they make an assumption that \nthe only possible scenario is one where the erstwhile evil government \nhas total control of all of its armed forces." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, super!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But more than anything I dislike the gun ownership movement in the US \nfor maintaining that the Amendment actual provides the right to keep and \nbear arms for personal defense of self and home against individual \ncrime. If you own weapons, and the lives of your family are threatened, \nby all means shoot first and live with the legal and moral consequences. \nBut do not insist that you have the inherent right to own a gun to \nprotect yourself against home invasions. This is not provided for by the \nAmendment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not by the 2nd Amendment alone, but the Fourth Amendment extends the \n\"free state\" to include security in one's property and body." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C241F0.2080204@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T13:00:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10903181235k4a4e9aealfde72fc5656aaaa9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Keeley wrote:\nOn Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 12:34 AM, Son of Witz\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As a complete aside, it's quite interesting to talk about this stuff with\ny'all. It's too easy to end up in an echo chamber, especially when you live\nin SF. It's hard to even find self-proclaimed conservatives here. I'm\npretty damn liberal, but living in SF long enough will make you gag at some\nof the thoughtless knee-jerk (not to mention arrogant) liberal attitudes.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was in SF a few weeks back and, though I expected it to be very\nliberal, I was surprised by some of the goings-on I heard about. The\ntrip I was on visited Alcatraz. Great, and interesting from a\nhistorical perspective. Only later did I read about the plan - THAT\nACTUALLY MADE THE CITY BALLOT - to tear down the prison and replace it\nwith a peace center. Only 72% of people in the city voted against it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "72% of people in the city, or 72% of people who voted?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C25435.7030305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T14:18:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C241F0.2080204@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh-huh.\n\nAnyway, there is certainly much evidence for that position. What I find interesting is that his distrust of government is not ideological. That is, though in \"Trust\" he has dirty hippies revolting in a new civil war, he places little faith in the megacorporations who are trying to \"preserve\" the US. Of course, the US they are trying to preserve seems hardly worth preserving. It's already been privatized beyond recognition.\n\nOn the other hand, in The Eyeflash Miracles, he posits creepy totalitarianism involving universal retinal IDs and truly evil government agents. Whether it's totalitarian or fascist (not clear), the government clearly doesn't care about people. The person that the state IDs does not define or limit the true individual, who still has access to the divine.\n\nIn Free Live Free, the government seems more benevolent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:04:16 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <8974.67.142.130.34.1237464256.squirrel at brunians.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1\n\nThere's another aspect of Gene Wolfe's politics which is mentioned\nprominently in many of his stories, and that is his intense distrust of\ngovernment. I assume that this is less controversial than his support of\nan armed citizenry. I am still a bit nonplussed that anyone would question\nthat still, but no matter. I am well known to be an extremely ignorant\nperson, knowing almost nothing (and trying hard to un-learn that little\nbit).\n\nI'd like to solicit a discussion of this particular aspect of his work.\nThe last one was quite lively, and some people did get their feelings\nhurt. Well, literary discussion is a tough business, and not meant for the\nfaint of heart. I hope that this discussion can be equally lively, but\nperhaps less fraught with emotional trauma for some of the participants." } ] }, { "message_id": "<18483.81194.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T14:22:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C25435.7030305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd agree with this non-ideological position. After all, Severian chooses monarchy as the highest form of government. Sure, that's got religious overtones, but he's also a savior-monarch himself. Typhon is another monarch who's \"bad.\" So it's a non-ideological position on monarchy, just says that it needs to be the right person. That would suggest that it's not really distrust of government, just distrust of the wrong forms of government. Silk, as well, is both Calde and a failure at it. Horn, too, gives us a number of very ambiguous reflections on the need for and dangers of good governing in the fragile communities on Blue.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:18:29 AM\nSubject: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\n\nUh-huh.\n\nAnyway, there is certainly much evidence for that position. What I find interesting is that his distrust of government is not ideological. That is, though in \"Trust\" he has dirty hippies revolting in a new civil war, he places little faith in the megacorporations who are trying to \"preserve\" the US. Of course, the US they are trying to preserve seems hardly worth preserving. It's already been privatized beyond recognition.\n\nOn the other hand, in The Eyeflash Miracles, he posits creepy totalitarianism involving universal retinal IDs and truly evil government agents. Whether it's totalitarian or fascist (not clear), the government clearly doesn't care about people. The person that the state IDs does not define or limit the true individual, who still has access to the divine.\n\nIn Free Live Free, the government seems more benevolent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:04:16 -0400 (EDT)\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nSubject: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C25C74.7090705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T14:53:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<18483.81194.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Naturally, a system of government that relies on the good character of the ruler is plainly not a good system. But democracy is no better in this respect.\n\nMonarchy is also more dramatic, of course, and lends itself to certain treatments. But a good monarchy may be better than a bad democracy, at least in the short term. \n\nIn the long run, I disagree, because a healthy democracy has healthy institutions that stay healthy, thus diffusing power and preventing the worst abuses. I'm not sure Wolfe would disagree with that, but he is certainly skeptical, as he should be. We all should be. And even kings' power had limits anyway---true feudal monarchies tend to be very decentralized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 07:22:42 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0903190830h5ed94268i1b702c32084dfc65@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T15:30:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C25C74.7090705@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been puzzling over this passage in Claw, Jonas and Severian are\nin the Antechamber and Jonas is wigging out. I don't know the history\nJonas is talking about, and I wonder if it sheds any light on Wolfe's\nviews on monarchy and democracy.\n\n\"Hereditary rulers and hereditary subordinates, and all sorts of\nstrange officials. Lancers with long, white mustaches.\" For an instant\nthe ghost of his old humorous smile appeared. \"The White Knight is\nsliding down the poker. He balances very badly, as the King's notebook\ntold him.\"\n[...] \"None of it began so.\" There was a sudden intensity in his\nquavering voice. \"Severian, the king was elected at the Marchfield.\nCounts were appointed by the kings. That was what they called the dark\nages. A baron was only a freeman of Lombardy.\"\n[...]\n\"It became ingrained. It all endured too long.\" As I walked toward the\ncrowd, I heard him say, \"The people didn't know.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C266B4.7080701@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T15:37:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C231EB.4050204@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nthen \"Less than half the per capita gun ownership of the U.S.\" can't be \ntrue" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Guns per capita, U.S.: 0.9 (my original link, \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_countries_by_gun_ownership)\n\nGuns per capita, Switzerland, including Army guns in private homes: 0.4 \n(high figure from your link)\n\nGuns per capita, Switzerland, presumably including Army guns in private \nhomes: 0.46 (from my original link again--slightly more than half, my bad)\n\nWhat part of this can't be true?\n\nMaybe you're thinking of \"gun owners per capita\" rather than \"guns per \ncapita\"? The former would also be interesting info, but I don't know if \nanyone's measured it, and I don't have time to look right now." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C26D68.4030401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-19T16:06:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C266B4.7080701@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I will never get any work done today, with all these interesting topics!\n\nHe's referring to the empire of Charlemagne, the Holy Roman. The Frankish aristocracy assembled every year at Marchfield (not sure where that is, probably Germany) to approve rulings and such.\n\nThe line about \"the people\" is odd. But clearly the system became a parody of itself, one might say. Everyone in the system gained power until, in England, the King's butler basically became the Lord Chamberlain. (Literally. If I have it right.)\n\nThus, barons originated as free farmers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:30:18 -0500\nFrom: Matthew Groves \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<39ed084f0903190830h5ed94268i1b702c32084dfc65 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nI've been puzzling over this passage in Claw, Jonas and Severian are\nin the Antechamber and Jonas is wigging out. I don't know the history\nJonas is talking about, and I wonder if it sheds any light on Wolfe's\nviews on monarchy and democracy.\n\n\"Hereditary rulers and hereditary subordinates, and all sorts of\nstrange officials. Lancers with long, white mustaches.\" For an instant\nthe ghost of his old humorous smile appeared. \"The White Knight is\nsliding down the poker. He balances very badly, as the King's notebook\ntold him.\"\n[...] \"None of it began so.\" There was a sudden intensity in his\nquavering voice. \"Severian, the king was elected at the Marchfield.\nCounts were appointed by the kings. That was what they called the dark\nages. A baron was only a freeman of Lombardy.\"\n[...]\n\"It became ingrained. It all endured too long.\" As I walked toward the\ncrowd, I heard him say, \"The people didn't know.\"\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T16:18:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C26D68.4030401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I will never get any work done today, with all these interesting topics!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "seconded.\nI better log the hell off and get this database I'm building finished." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T18:18:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<8974.67.142.130.34.1237464256.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's another aspect of Gene Wolfe's politics which is mentioned\nprominently in many of his stories, and that is his intense distrust of\ngovernment. I assume that this is less controversial than his support of\nan armed citizenry. I am still a bit nonplussed that anyone would question\nthat still, but no matter. I am well known to be an extremely ignorant\nperson, knowing almost nothing (and trying hard to un-learn that little\nbit).\n\nI'd like to solicit a discussion of this particular aspect of his work.\nThe last one was quite lively, and some people did get their feelings\nhurt. Well, literary discussion is a tough business, and not meant for the\nfaint of heart. I hope that this discussion can be equally lively, but\nperhaps less fraught with emotional trauma for some of the participants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Relax. I attributed an emotional reaction to you not as a form of projection but because you seem unable to discuss some topics in a cooperative, rational way. If I think you're resorting to counter-productive rhetorical shenanigans in an attempt to \"win\" a discussion that can have no winner, then I will poke fun at you. What I don't do turn it into an ongoing war after it's over.\n\nWolfe's distrust of government I also take to be a given, as much as his position on guns. My main interest in this particular line, though, is the way it seems to change a bit (as it did with guns) when you look at BotNS. In BotNS it seems like the reader is asked to just take some things as necessary. This could either be an indication that the Autarchy as a state is a special case in this story, or it could simply be Severian's point of view that in this case overshadows Wolfe's." } ] }, { "message_id": "<957682.511.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T19:15:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<8974.67.142.130.34.1237464256.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 3/19/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThere's another aspect of Gene Wolfe's politics\nwhich is mentioned\nprominently in many of his stories, and that is his intense\ndistrust of government." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd like to solicit a discussion of this particular\naspect of his work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI haven't seen any mention yet of \"The Best Introduction to\nthe Mountains\", where Wolfe says the code of conduct he\nlearned in his childhood included, \"Legitimate authority\nwas to be obeyed without shirking and without question.\nMere strength (the corrupt coercion Washington calls\n/power/ and Chicago /clout/) was to be defied.\" So maybe\nanother way of saying he distrusts government would be that\nhe thinks most government is mere strength, but he thinks\ngood government can exist and he'd be happy to trust an\nexample of it.\n\nhttp://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/wolfemountains.html\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903191220o1922c44ar4729c6dfdcfb23e3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T19:20:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<957682.511.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed...but this is in the context of a discussion of Tolkien's work.\nTolkien veers between a benign anarchism (The Shire) and divinely-appointed\nor at least divinely-sanctioned kings. It seems then that \"good government\"\nis holy or ideal government--government by the best (in the sense of \"most\nmoral\") people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n--- On Thu, 3/19/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's another aspect of Gene Wolfe's politics\nwhich is mentioned\nprominently in many of his stories, and that is his intense\ndistrust of government." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd like to solicit a discussion of this particular\naspect of his work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nI haven't seen any mention yet of \"The Best Introduction to\nthe Mountains\", where Wolfe says the code of conduct he\nlearned in his childhood included, \"Legitimate authority\nwas to be obeyed without shirking and without question.\nMere strength (the corrupt coercion Washington calls\n/power/ and Chicago /clout/) was to be defied.\" So maybe\nanother way of saying he distrusts government would be that\nhe thinks most government is mere strength, but he thinks\ngood government can exist and he'd be happy to trust an\nexample of it.\n\nhttp://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/wolfemountains.html\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903191227u7051c155r4ae48ab281d49baf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T19:27:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903191220o1922c44ar4729c6dfdcfb23e3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:20 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nAgreed...but this is in the context of a discussion of Tolkien's work.\nTolkien veers between a benign anarchism (The Shire) and divinely-appointed\nor at least divinely-sanctioned kings. It seems then that \"good government\"\nis holy or ideal government--government by the best (in the sense of \"most\nmoral\") people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However, the point is made at least once (by Aragorn), and so Gene \"I hate\nit when they repeat things\" Wolfe is bound to have noticed, that the \"benign\nanarchism\" of the Shire is permitted to exist only because of the labors of\nthe Rangers, i.e., the King and his followers. Tolkien doesn't really \"veer,\"\nhe's definitely in the \"divinely-appointed King\" camp." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090319194031.GA5666@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-03-19T19:40:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903191227u7051c155r4ae48ab281d49baf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:27:43PM -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:20 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agreed...but this is in the context of a discussion of Tolkien's work.\nTolkien veers between a benign anarchism (The Shire) and divinely-appointed\nor at least divinely-sanctioned kings. It seems then that \"good government\"\nis holy or ideal government--government by the best (in the sense of \"most\nmoral\") people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, the point is made at least once (by Aragorn), and so Gene \"I hate\nit when they repeat things\" Wolfe is bound to have noticed, that the \"benign\nanarchism\" of the Shire is permitted to exist only because of the labors of\nthe Rangers, i.e., the King and his followers. Tolkien doesn't really \"veer,\"\nhe's definitely in the \"divinely-appointed King\" camp." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of the three major races in Tolkien (Man, Elves, Dwarves), only the\nMen have the semblance of a divinely-appointed king.\n\nThe elves appear to be a meritocracy, and only in, one occasion can I\nthink of, do the elvish choices coincide with those most liked by the\ngods.\n\nThe dwarves claim to be hereditary from the original 7 dwarves, and\nseem to be largely ignored by any except Aule, which seems to be the\ngod that the bad guys in LOTR come from (Saruman, Sauron)\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903191247p3863e706mf47a5a83158ef574@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T19:47:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<20090319194031.GA5666@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:27:43PM -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:20 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Agreed...but this is in the context of a discussion of Tolkien's work.\nTolkien veers between a benign anarchism (The Shire) and\ndivinely-appointed\nor at least divinely-sanctioned kings. It seems then that \"good\ngovernment\"\nis holy or ideal government--government by the best (in the sense of\n\"most\nmoral\") people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, the point is made at least once (by Aragorn), and so Gene \"I\nhate\nit when they repeat things\" Wolfe is bound to have noticed, that the\n\"benign\nanarchism\" of the Shire is permitted to exist only because of the labors\nof\nthe Rangers, i.e., the King and his followers. Tolkien doesn't really\n\"veer,\"\nhe's definitely in the \"divinely-appointed King\" camp." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of the three major races in Tolkien (Man, Elves, Dwarves), only the\nMen have the semblance of a divinely-appointed king." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry, that's just not true. The Dwarves have Durin, a direct creation\nof Aule who they believe to reincarnate every several generations. Whether\nor not it's true, it reflects a privileging and longing for divine authority\nover at least the most significant branche of Dwarves. Likewise the Elves\nhave a variety of government structures at different times, but the one that\nTolkien holds up as the ideal is the government of the Vanyar--indeed, Ingwe\nis the High King of all the elves in theory if not in fact and he receives\nhis authority directly from the Valar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The elves appear to be a meritocracy, and only in, one occasion can I\nthink of, do the elvish choices coincide with those most liked by the\ngods.\n\nThe dwarves claim to be hereditary from the original 7 dwarves, and\nseem to be largely ignored by any except Aule, which seems to be the\ngod that the bad guys in LOTR come from (Saruman, Sauron)\n\nJeff\n\n--\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over\n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)\n\niD8DBQFJwp+vXazNjIaibJERAp4kAKCUhxGLeK5XkCdMWsRBrcg3YLVdGwCaA+ra\ntC/y/mBmah+MQgJrlJ99igk=\n=JFuX\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370903191254l4764c552j1ddbc7c56b13976d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-19T19:54:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<20090319194031.GA5666@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth\n wrote:\nOf the three major races in Tolkien (Man, Elves, Dwarves), only the\nMen have the semblance of a divinely-appointed king.\n\nThe elves appear to be a meritocracy, and only in, one occasion can I\nthink of, do the elvish choices coincide with those most liked by the\ngods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In what way are the Elves a meritocracy? The Silmarillion, and for\nthat matter the massive \"History of Middle-earth,\" are silent on how\nthe three original Elven-Kings were chosen from those who\nawakened at Cuivienen, and all the kings who followed are their\ndescendants in one direct line or another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The dwarves claim to be hereditary from the original 7 dwarves, and\nseem to be largely ignored by any except Aule, which seems to be the\ngod that the bad guys in LOTR come from (Saruman, Sauron)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, there are seven original Dwarves who are created directly\nby Aule and ensouled by Eru; their descendants become the kings\nof the Dwarves in later days. Sounds like a divinely-chosen lot to\nme.\n\nIt's interesting, by the way, that there are three original Elf-kings,\nthree Elf-rings, seven original Dwarf-kings, and seven Dwarf-rings.\nThis implies that there are originally nine Kings or clans of Men,\nbut by the time Men came out of the East they didn't talk about\ntheir past." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<452010.67931.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T04:04:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370903191227u7051c155r4ae48ab281d49baf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 3/19/09, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:20 PM, John Watkins\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agreed...but this is in the context of a discussion of\nTolkien's work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I think Wolfe would have said the same thing about his\nearly training in any other context." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tolkien veers between a benign anarchism (The Shire)\nand divinely-appointed\nor at least divinely-sanctioned kings. It seems then\nthat \"good government\"\nis holy or ideal government--government by the best\n(in the sense of \"most moral\") people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am by no means sure that \"best\" means \"most moral\"\n(though it would be a big part of it for me). In line\nalso with what people have been saying about false gods\nbeing a way to the true one, Wolfe seems to emphasize\nsome other concept of \"better\", and the importance of\nregarding one's betters with respect if not reverence.\nIn TBotLS, Silk reveres the false gods of the Whorl,\nthough most or all are incomparably inferior to him\nmorally, and if I'm reading it right, Wolfe sees this\nas a good thing, maybe because it makes him capable of\nreverence for the Outsider. Likewise in /The Knight/,\nAble kneels to Michael, but in /The Wizard/ he says\nMichael is good as a good blade is good (Chapter 23),\nnot morally good.\n\nTo get back to government, this seems parallel to me\nto the idea of respect for one's betters, such as\ndivinely appointed kings--and they're appointed by\nheredity, not merit, even in Middle-Earth. (Aragorn\nis a coincidence of ancestry and merit, fortunate but\nnot fortuitous.) I think it's clear in the history of\nGondor that rebelling against even a bad king is bad.\nEven Paladin Took is \"the right Thain\" for no reason\nbut ancestry. And Sam treats Frodo with deference if\nnot painful obsequiousness even in Mordor, when Frodo\nisn't his employer and Sam has borne the Ring.\n\nI think this is similar to the obedience to legitimate\nauthority that Wolfe was brought up with. His heroes\nare very reluctant to rebel against authority, though\nthey sometimes do. Wolfe didn't say \"admirable\nauthority\"; he said \"legitimate\", a word used for\nproperly descended monarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, the point is made at least once (by Aragorn), and\nso Gene \"I hate\nit when they repeat things\" Wolfe is bound to have\nnoticed, that the \"benign\nanarchism\" of the Shire is permitted to exist only\nbecause of the labors of\nthe Rangers, i.e., the King and his followers. Tolkien\ndoesn't really \"veer,\"\nhe's definitely in the \"divinely-appointed King\" camp." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though Aragorn makes the Shire free of his kingdom, taking\non responsibility without authority.) If that's such a\nreward, why doesn't he confer it on the provinces of\nGondor that fought so bravely?)\n\nIf Wolfe noticed that, maybe he also noticed one of the\nfew things we learn about the governance of the Shire,\nnamely that the farmers between Stock and Rushey\nacknowledged the authority of the Master of Brandy Hall\n(Book 1, Ch. 5)--because he's the Master, apparently,\nnot because he's wise or impartial.\n\nThis is not quite anarchism, by the way. And authority\nin what? Did he arbitrate their disputes? What\nhappened when someone who accepted his authority had\na dispute with someone who accepted that of the Mayor\nor the Thain?\n\nAlso not anarchism: the hobbits seem to like complicated\nformality in their contracts and such, which suggests\ncomplicated laws. This would be quite different from\nthe \"few and just\" laws that \"The Best Introduction to\nthe Mountains\" promises us. But one of the odd features\nof that essay is how little overlap there is between the\nsocieties of Northern Europe between AD 400 and 1000 as\nhe describes them, the \"Free\" societies of LotR, and\nhis utopian future for us.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C31F74.3090805@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-20T04:45:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C266B4.7080701@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tim Walters wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "then \"Less than half the per capita gun ownership of the U.S.\" can't \nbe true" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Guns per capita, U.S.: 0.9 (my original link, \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_countries_by_gun_ownership)\n\nGuns per capita, Switzerland, including Army guns in private homes: 0.4 \n(high figure from your link)\n\nGuns per capita, Switzerland, presumably including Army guns in private \nhomes: 0.46 (from my original link again--slightly more than half, my bad)\n\nWhat part of this can't be true?\n\nMaybe you're thinking of \"gun owners per capita\" rather than \"guns per \ncapita\"? The former would also be interesting info, but I don't know if \nanyone's measured it, and I don't have time to look right now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that may be it.\n\nA better metric might be \"percentage of people with access to firearms\", \ncounting everyone in a household with at least one firearm available, \neven if it belongs to the Swiss Army or the city PD." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C43CBF.10003@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-21T01:02:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0903190830h5ed94268i1b702c32084dfc65@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nI've been puzzling over this passage in Claw, Jonas and Severian are\nin the Antechamber and Jonas is wigging out. I don't know the history\nJonas is talking about, and I wonder if it sheds any light on Wolfe's\nviews on monarchy and democracy.\n\n\"Hereditary rulers and hereditary subordinates, and all sorts of\nstrange officials. Lancers with long, white mustaches.\" For an instant\nthe ghost of his old humorous smile appeared. \"The White Knight is\nsliding down the poker. He balances very badly, as the King's notebook\ntold him.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The last bit references Lewis Carroll's _Through the Looking Glass_, \nwhich could be taken as a criticism of class society." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-21T02:17:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C43CBF.10003@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:02 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nMatthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've been puzzling over this passage in Claw, Jonas and Severian are\nin the Antechamber and Jonas is wigging out. I don't know the \nhistory\nJonas is talking about, and I wonder if it sheds any light on Wolfe's\nviews on monarchy and democracy.\n\"Hereditary rulers and hereditary subordinates, and all sorts of\nstrange officials. Lancers with long, white mustaches.\" For an \ninstant\nthe ghost of his old humorous smile appeared. \"The White Knight is\nsliding down the poker. He balances very badly, as the King's \nnotebook\ntold him.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The last bit references Lewis Carroll's _Through the Looking Glass_, \nwhich could be taken as a criticism of class society." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or of, you know, strange magic to do with traveling through mirrors.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C45330.7060605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-21T02:38:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chapter 1 of Through the Looking Glass.\n\nAccording to Peter Wright, there's a \"reference\" in that chapter to BotNS, but he doesn't say what it is. I assume it's simply the matter of Alice's travel through mirrors.\n\nThe King's notebook wrote this because Alice was holding the pencil and for some reason wished to make this observation. She's watching chessmen in the fireplace on the other side of the mirror." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 20:02:55 -0500\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <49C43CBF.10003 at io.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nMatthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've been puzzling over this passage in Claw, Jonas and Severian are\nin the Antechamber and Jonas is wigging out. I don't know the history\nJonas is talking about, and I wonder if it sheds any light on Wolfe's\nviews on monarchy and democracy.\n\n\"Hereditary rulers and hereditary subordinates, and all sorts of\nstrange officials. Lancers with long, white mustaches.\" For an instant\nthe ghost of his old humorous smile appeared. \"The White Knight is\nsliding down the poker. He balances very badly, as the King's notebook\ntold him.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nThe last bit references Lewis Carroll's _Through the Looking Glass_, \nwhich could be taken as a criticism of class society.\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C48427.8090309@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-21T06:07:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Mar 20, 2009, at 8:02 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I've been puzzling over this passage in Claw, Jonas and Severian are\nin the Antechamber and Jonas is wigging out. I don't know the history\nJonas is talking about, and I wonder if it sheds any light on Wolfe's\nviews on monarchy and democracy.\n\"Hereditary rulers and hereditary subordinates, and all sorts of\nstrange officials. Lancers with long, white mustaches.\" For an instant\nthe ghost of his old humorous smile appeared. \"The White Knight is\nsliding down the poker. He balances very badly, as the King's notebook\ntold him.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The last bit references Lewis Carroll's _Through the Looking Glass_, \nwhich could be taken as a criticism of class society." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or of, you know, strange magic to do with traveling through mirrors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "that's kind of hard to politicize tho" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<672C2051E9384B4B8E9EE654B29CB711@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-21T14:42:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Witz: You know, I was disappointed at the fact that\nKatie Sackhoff came across like a bimbo. Dang. What a wilter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stuart Hamm: Most of them seemed to be revealed\nas self absorbed LA actors" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Witz.\n\nThey didn't really explain any of the big mysteries here except one:\n\n\"Did the writers have any idea what were the answers to the puzzles and \nweirdo-visions they've\nbeen posing over the last 4 years?\"\n\n\"no\"\n\n(Also it's 3 hours were padded with at least an hour and a half of \nself-indulgent \"Grey's Anatomy\" gunk. My wife said \"What happened to \nStarbuck? All they've got here is Katie Sackhoff\".)\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-21T15:32:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<672C2051E9384B4B8E9EE654B29CB711@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 21, 2009, at 7:42 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nWell, Witz.\n\nThey didn't really explain any of the big mysteries here except one:\n\n\"Did the writers have any idea what were the answers to the puzzles \nand weirdo-visions they've\nbeen posing over the last 4 years?\"\n\n\"no\"\n\n(Also it's 3 hours were padded with at least an hour and a half of \nself-indulgent \"Grey's Anatomy\" gunk. My wife said \"What happened to \nStarbuck? All they've got here is Katie Sackhoff\".)\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow.\nI'm not sure I could disagree more.\n\n[complete spoilitude follows]\n\nmy big questions were answered, and most threads were resolved, even \nif pat TV answers weren't given. Maybe Wolfe has conditioned me to get \nless confirmation.\nthe biggest unresolved issue, to me is \"they have a plan\" well, what \nwas it.\n\nthe thing ended up exactly where I'd been hoping and suspecting, a \nmerger of the biological beings, a new humanity, a separation from \ncenturions, a new Home on Earth, a clean slate. So, whatever the plan \nwas, even if it was demonic, it's fruit was what I'd hoped for, and as \nthe story seems to indicate, as God intended.\n\nhmm. where have I seen that before. SF Quasi-Angelic eugenics plan for \nbettering humanity and an apocatastasis for humanity, and cyclical \niterations of Earth, and cyclical iterations of humanity creating \nbeings that think they're better who put humanity through the \ncrucible? Gods plans working through flawed and evil beings? \nSurvivors of a ship landing on a new earth and going native?\nIt all seems VERY New Sun to me.\n\nStarbuck is an angelic eidolon of sorts. What else could she be? It \nbegs the question of who resurrects and how? but I'm okay with the \ndelicious ambiguity there.\nthis is as resolved as I need it to be. my wife disagrees. The \"big \nreveal\" was her disappearance. Wouldn't angel wings or dialogue have \nbeen cheesy?\nMy wife would want me to hedge that with the questions of why she had \nthat role, why she had that song? I'm okay with it. There was enough \nearly prophesy with her finding the arrow, with her as the angelic \nmasthead for Adama's boat. \"Harbinger of Doom\" is problematic. But \nagain, as we've argued on the list, an clean slate reset is often seen \nas doom, even though it's a rebirth.\n\nAstral 6 & Astral Gaius as angelic guides.\n\nOne of my biggest questions was Why Baltar? You knew he had a higher \ndestiny all along.\nleave it to our most morally and ethically confused fence-straddler to \nbe able to voice the call for peace when it really frakking mattered.\nbeing called a fence straddler all my life, I can REALLY relate to this.\n\nMy other biggest question was where Our Earth and Our Humanity fit \nin. Great answers in that dept.\n\nOperah house has been going on since what, season 2? people kept \nsaying they'd dropped the ball. I beg to differ. A good example of \nthe fact that they did know where they were going. I think there is \nenough on display to see that they knew who it would end. it was all \nthe threads beginning to end that they wove together as they went.\n\noh, also I loved all the Caprica story arc resolutions, especially \nRoslin. She'd had enough frivolous fun, sleeping with her student. She \ndecides to commit to a campaign \"All the way to the end\". Boomer \npromising Adama that she'd pay back the favor when it really \nmattered. Ellen just wants to be with Saul, no matter where or how \ndestitute.\n\nOh. Lee and Starbuck on the table. brother: \"Somethings broken...\"\n\nCavil's cop out was even ok, if a little easy. He went against all of \nhis petty issues and made a truce in the name of his peoples \nsurvival. He doesn't seem to want to stay around to see it, or see it \nfall apart. but he killed himself instead of killing the truce.\n\nfunny bit with Gaelin going north.\nwonder if his strain evolves into the Gaelic peoples...\n\nPure gold. I don't suppose I could have been happier with it. I \nlaughed my ass off at how perfect it all was.\nmanaically cackling in fact. so much fun.\n\nthanks again Jordon Flato for turning me onto Gene Wolfe and \nBattlestar Gallactica. I owe you two.\nmaybe three when I crack that Gurdjieff book you gifted me.\n\nspectacularly frakking awesome.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<056CE1C97DA54317B6A9B105DE186373@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-21T20:56:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here there be spoilers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "my big questions were answered, and most threads were resolved, even if \npat TV answers weren't given. Maybe Wolfe has conditioned me to get less \nconfirmation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The thing about the unresolved questions in Wolfe's stories is that even \nthough he does not always leave a decent trail of breadcrumbs that someone \ncan answer all his riddles beyond any doubt, I still believe he knows what \nthey are when he writes them.\n\nI am not convinced (and very much doubt) that the writers of BSG had these \nparticular resolutions to the visions in mind when they wrote them or any \nresolution at all. I think they decided at the end to have a final showdown \nin the C&C room and so formed it to vaguely fit the visions. The question \nleft open was \"Why did this need a vision?\" It didn't. If God could arrange \na race on far-away planet have DNA compatible with the colonists, then He \ndidn't need that song and dance to get Hera to the Bridge. It was a big \nbuild-up for very little pay-off.\n\nThe resolutions that worked--like arriving at Earth in the distant past (or \ndistant future)-- were the ones that one might have guessed were inevitable \n(as you implied). No surprise there, really. The moralizing at the end from \nastral Baltar and Six made me wretch. I think they painted themselves into a \nserious corner with Baltar. Every possible clue suggested he was a Cylon \nbeing manipulated by some big Cylon-in-the-Sky but the writers seemed to say \n\"That's too obvious, lets just say God is doing it.\" With Starbuck, I don't \nthink they could decide *what* to do with her. They labeled her the \n\"Harbinger of Doom\" hoping to deliver on that promise later. They didn't. If \nanyone fits that shoe, it is Hera, who led to the Doom of the recalcitrant \nCylons.\n\nWolfe has no problem with involving the Increate or Outsider in his stories, \nbut in all cases He works his plans through rational events, and, when he \nacts directly (ala Outsider), Wolfe makes him a character in the story who \ncan explain Himself and His motives. There's none of that in BSG, because, I \npresume, they find the idea of a rational, \"actual\" God to be a little \nquaint. So when they tell a story where such a Person exists, he ends up \ncartoony and quaint. For a believer in such a God (a God who is *actually* \nthere), I think the presentation BSG God (\"whether it is God or gods blah \nblah blah God is force of nature\") is a rather contemptible thing, \nreflecting the condescension felt by the writers toward such a belief. If \nagnostics do stuff like this, they need to be as deft as Arthur C. Clark or \nelse avoid it entirely. Ultimately, for the writers, God is just some \nmystical crap that lets them throw pixie dust in the audience's eyes to \nbuild intrigue and then, later, weasel out the corners into which they've \npainted themselves. It's the worst sort of Deus ex Machina.\n\nYou liked the Caprica flashbacks. I didn't. So I won't pick at them for \nbeing put in there at all. But they did not move the current narrative \nforward or add anything to it. The first hour, moved the story forward \nbarely at all. Whatever advancement occurred would have been part of the \nfirst 10 minutes of a good, tight, engaging episode which is what one \nexpects from a finale. I felt truly offended by it, as though I'd paid a \ndollar to see a unicorn and only saw a goat with a baseball bat tied to his \nhead. A good series will often have episodes like that as transitional \npoints to provide exposition for an up-coming episode. Obviously, that \nwasn't the intent in this case. Wolfe might go on for a couple pages about \nthe symbolism of a coin, but it does mean something to his over-all theme. \nIt is in itself a clue.\n\nI will pick on one of the flashbacks, I guess. The scene with Apollo and \nStarbuck did not make either of them look very good. Obviously Apollo's \nbrother made a mistake leaving his fianc? alone with liquor and a spare \npenis. Hmm...Roslin came off looking like a pretty cold cookie as well. She \ncould have at least put $50 in the guy's pocket. Its not like Wolfe's \nprotagonists always behave so admirably either, but when Sev takes advantage \nof the passed out Jolenta, no one imagines it to be a meaningful step in his \npersonal development.\n\nAs for the issues of making peace, well, they *did* have their big (and \nquite expected) show-down battle with the Cylons where they totally wipe out \ntheir enemies so they can go forward with \"a clean slate\". That is a logical \nstep to my thinking, but it is not exactly what seemed to be promised.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C56C67.4070601@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-21T22:38:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\n[complete spoilitude follows]\n\nmy big questions were answered, and most threads were resolved, even if \npat TV answers weren't given. Maybe Wolfe has conditioned me to get less \nconfirmation.\nthe biggest unresolved issue, to me is \"they have a plan\" well, what \nwas it.\n\nthe thing ended up exactly where I'd been hoping and suspecting, a \nmerger of the biological beings, a new humanity, a separation from \ncenturions, a new Home on Earth, a clean slate. So, whatever the plan \nwas, even if it was demonic, it's fruit was what I'd hoped for, and as \nthe story seems to indicate, as God intended.\n\nhmm. where have I seen that before. SF Quasi-Angelic eugenics plan for \nbettering humanity and an apocatastasis for humanity, and cyclical \niterations of Earth, and cyclical iterations of humanity creating beings \nthat think they're better who put humanity through the crucible? Gods \nplans working through flawed and evil beings? Survivors of a ship \nlanding on a new earth and going native?\nIt all seems VERY New Sun to me.\n\nStarbuck is an angelic eidolon of sorts. What else could she be? It \nbegs the question of who resurrects and how? but I'm okay with the \ndelicious ambiguity there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The exceptional thing is that it happened at least _twice_; there was no \nway for the \"first\" Starbuck's corpse and wreckage to have gotten from \nthe gas giant to Earth. I think this also hints that the the disappeared \nStarbuck *went* somewhere instead of dissipated. Unfortunately, she is \nnot shown in the epilogue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "this is as resolved as I need it to be. my wife disagrees. The \"big \nreveal\" was her disappearance. Wouldn't angel wings or dialogue have \nbeen cheesy?\nMy wife would want me to hedge that with the questions of why she had \nthat role, why she had that song? I'm okay with it. There was enough \nearly prophesy with her finding the arrow, with her as the angelic \nmasthead for Adama's boat. \"Harbinger of Doom\" is problematic. But \nagain, as we've argued on the list, an clean slate reset is often seen \nas doom, even though it's a rebirth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Harbinger of _death_. Which could refer to he prowess as a warrior, or \nthat anyone she shacks up with end up untimely dead?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Operah house has been going on since what, season 2? people kept saying \nthey'd dropped the ball. I beg to differ. A good example of the fact \nthat they did know where they were going. I think there is enough on \ndisplay to see that they knew who it would end. it was all the threads \nbeginning to end that they wove together as they went." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You made a typo there, that \"who\" was better known than \"what\" - but the \nreal murkiness was what the Cylon's plot could possibly be - and we \nstill really don't have a good idea of what rational plan \"John\" could \nhave had that would have attracted the participation of the less insane \nskinjobs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cavil's cop out was even ok, if a little easy. He went against all of \nhis petty issues and made a truce in the name of his peoples survival. \nHe doesn't seem to want to stay around to see it, or see it fall apart. \nbut he killed himself instead of killing the truce." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did we watch the same show? The truce with Cavil's people ended before \nhe killed himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "funny bit with Gaelin going north.\nwonder if his strain evolves into the Gaelic peoples..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "a lone, sterile cylon skinjob on an island with no people?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c9aaa4$33cf1e60$9b6d5b20$@net.au>", "from": { "name": "Jeremy Francis", "address": "francisj at iinet.net.au" }, "date": "2009-03-22T04:10:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<49C56C67.4070601@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I rarely weigh in on anything on this list but may I share my disgust with\nthat ending. It was essentially two hours of \"Oh, shit, I've backed myself\ninto a corner. How do I get out?\" This leads to some of the more absurd\nelements of the episode - the first of which was when Cavil consented to\nsome sort of treaty based on Gaius' \"I see angels!\" statement, followed by\nLee's \"Atavism for all, enjoy copulating with the mud-smeared natives;\nalternatively, contract diseases we'll have no hope of curing,\" head angel\nKara (who could still fly a Viper and could be seen by all), the shoe-horned\nopera \"explanation\", and the dancing robot montage. Not to mention so many\npeople being willing to die to save one half-Cylon little girl. Might I say\nthat the \"God\" in the BSG universe is pretty stupid - so, you can send new\npeople, who fly real (apparently) Vipers, and the best means of getting\nhumanity to where they're going is to have Kara remember the coordinates\nwhen she's standing right in front of the FTL console? \n\n\"God did it\" or \"magic did it\" out of nowhere is considered a lazy\nexplanation for a reason. Though, to be honest, I found \"Time to split up,\nwith few supplies, and not even try to create a civilisation\" even more\nridiculous. I can imagine the fleet members: \"I'm a mechanic. What the\nhell do I know about being a hunter-gatherer? Is it too late to side with\nGaeta?\" \nAspiring TV writers: this is why you plan what you're going to write, at\nleast in general detail, at the start of your series. See: Carnivale,\nBabylon 5, or even Deep Space 9 (which, while not as good as the others, was\nfairly cogent). I've thought since they found the \"real\" Earth that there\nwas no convincing way to end this series, and I was right.\n\nAt least we got Cavil blowing his brains out, Baltar's \"I know a bit about\nfarming\", and Roslin's death, which were all very effective/awesome scenes.\nOh, silly Adama, you can't marry a corpse.\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of Jeff Wilson\nSent: Sunday, 22 March 2009 7:39 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\n[complete spoilitude follows]\n\nmy big questions were answered, and most threads were resolved, even if \npat TV answers weren't given. Maybe Wolfe has conditioned me to get less \nconfirmation.\nthe biggest unresolved issue, to me is \"they have a plan\" well, what \nwas it.\n\nthe thing ended up exactly where I'd been hoping and suspecting, a \nmerger of the biological beings, a new humanity, a separation from \ncenturions, a new Home on Earth, a clean slate. So, whatever the plan \nwas, even if it was demonic, it's fruit was what I'd hoped for, and as \nthe story seems to indicate, as God intended.\n\nhmm. where have I seen that before. SF Quasi-Angelic eugenics plan for \nbettering humanity and an apocatastasis for humanity, and cyclical \niterations of Earth, and cyclical iterations of humanity creating beings \nthat think they're better who put humanity through the crucible? Gods \nplans working through flawed and evil beings? Survivors of a ship \nlanding on a new earth and going native?\nIt all seems VERY New Sun to me.\n\nStarbuck is an angelic eidolon of sorts. What else could she be? It \nbegs the question of who resurrects and how? but I'm okay with the \ndelicious ambiguity there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The exceptional thing is that it happened at least _twice_; there was no \nway for the \"first\" Starbuck's corpse and wreckage to have gotten from \nthe gas giant to Earth. I think this also hints that the the disappeared \nStarbuck *went* somewhere instead of dissipated. Unfortunately, she is \nnot shown in the epilogue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "this is as resolved as I need it to be. my wife disagrees. The \"big \nreveal\" was her disappearance. Wouldn't angel wings or dialogue have \nbeen cheesy?\nMy wife would want me to hedge that with the questions of why she had \nthat role, why she had that song? I'm okay with it. There was enough \nearly prophesy with her finding the arrow, with her as the angelic \nmasthead for Adama's boat. \"Harbinger of Doom\" is problematic. But \nagain, as we've argued on the list, an clean slate reset is often seen \nas doom, even though it's a rebirth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Harbinger of _death_. Which could refer to he prowess as a warrior, or \nthat anyone she shacks up with end up untimely dead?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Operah house has been going on since what, season 2? people kept saying \nthey'd dropped the ball. I beg to differ. A good example of the fact \nthat they did know where they were going. I think there is enough on \ndisplay to see that they knew who it would end. it was all the threads \nbeginning to end that they wove together as they went." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You made a typo there, that \"who\" was better known than \"what\" - but the \nreal murkiness was what the Cylon's plot could possibly be - and we \nstill really don't have a good idea of what rational plan \"John\" could \nhave had that would have attracted the participation of the less insane \nskinjobs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cavil's cop out was even ok, if a little easy. He went against all of \nhis petty issues and made a truce in the name of his peoples survival. \nHe doesn't seem to want to stay around to see it, or see it fall apart. \nbut he killed himself instead of killing the truce." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did we watch the same show? The truce with Cavil's people ended before \nhe killed himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "funny bit with Gaelin going north.\nwonder if his strain evolves into the Gaelic peoples..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "a lone, sterile cylon skinjob on an island with no people?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<87AFBA37-BE83-4AFB-9C94-DD5CE8919C9B@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-22T04:28:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<000001c9aaa4$33cf1e60$9b6d5b20$@net.au>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "haha.\nyou and Wynn are both totally right.\nI still enjoyed the hell out of it. I suppose I didn't have such \nexpectations. and well, I was also a little drinky when I watched it, \nso maybe that colored my vision.\nmy basic expectation of the thing all along was that it would suck. I \ndon't watch much tv, and had expectations of stuff like Star Gate and \nStar Trek (which I can't bear to watch) when I came to this thing.\nSo, that the show even went into any of that sort of territory was \npretty damn awesome to me. so, expecting shit, and getting, say \nplatinum, if not gold, is a good run I think.\nI guess to you sci fi buffs it's a fallen promise or something.\n\n\nI'm curious to know what this next revers POV thing will be. Will we \nget the plan?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cavil's cop out was even ok, if a little easy. He went against all \nof his petty issues and made a truce in the name of his peoples \nsurvival. He doesn't seem to want to stay around to see it, or see \nit fall apart. but he killed himself instead of killing the truce." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did we watch the same show? The truce with Cavil's people ended \nbefore he killed himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "oh yeah, I wasn't clear on that. I thought that the war was still over \nand the fighting was contained to CIC after Gaelin killed (?)\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 21, 2009, at 9:10 PM, Jeremy Francis wrote:\nI rarely weigh in on anything on this list but may I share my \ndisgust with\nthat ending. It was essentially two hours of \"Oh, shit, I've backed \nmyself\ninto a corner. How do I get out?\" This leads to some of the more \nabsurd\nelements of the episode - the first of which was when Cavil \nconsented to\nsome sort of treaty based on Gaius' \"I see angels!\" statement, \nfollowed by\nLee's \"Atavism for all, enjoy copulating with the mud-smeared natives;\nalternatively, contract diseases we'll have no hope of curing,\" head \nangel\nKara (who could still fly a Viper and could be seen by all), the \nshoe-horned\nopera \"explanation\", and the dancing robot montage. Not to mention \nso many\npeople being willing to die to save one half-Cylon little girl. \nMight I say\nthat the \"God\" in the BSG universe is pretty stupid - so, you can \nsend new\npeople, who fly real (apparently) Vipers, and the best means of \ngetting\nhumanity to where they're going is to have Kara remember the \ncoordinates\nwhen she's standing right in front of the FTL console?\n\n\"God did it\" or \"magic did it\" out of nowhere is considered a lazy\nexplanation for a reason. Though, to be honest, I found \"Time to \nsplit up,\nwith few supplies, and not even try to create a civilisation\" even \nmore\nridiculous. I can imagine the fleet members: \"I'm a mechanic. What \nthe\nhell do I know about being a hunter-gatherer? Is it too late to \nside with\nGaeta?\"\nAspiring TV writers: this is why you plan what you're going to \nwrite, at\nleast in general detail, at the start of your series. See: Carnivale,\nBabylon 5, or even Deep Space 9 (which, while not as good as the \nothers, was\nfairly cogent). I've thought since they found the \"real\" Earth that \nthere\nwas no convincing way to end this series, and I was right.\n\nAt least we got Cavil blowing his brains out, Baltar's \"I know a bit \nabout\nfarming\", and Roslin's death, which were all very effective/awesome \nscenes.\nOh, silly Adama, you can't marry a corpse.\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth- \nbounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of Jeff Wilson\nSent: Sunday, 22 March 2009 7:39 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\n\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[complete spoilitude follows]\n\nmy big questions were answered, and most threads were resolved, \neven if\npat TV answers weren't given. Maybe Wolfe has conditioned me to get \nless\nconfirmation.\nthe biggest unresolved issue, to me is \"they have a plan\" well, what\nwas it.\n\nthe thing ended up exactly where I'd been hoping and suspecting, a\nmerger of the biological beings, a new humanity, a separation from\ncenturions, a new Home on Earth, a clean slate. So, whatever the \nplan\nwas, even if it was demonic, it's fruit was what I'd hoped for, and \nas\nthe story seems to indicate, as God intended.\n\nhmm. where have I seen that before. SF Quasi-Angelic eugenics plan \nfor\nbettering humanity and an apocatastasis for humanity, and cyclical\niterations of Earth, and cyclical iterations of humanity creating \nbeings\nthat think they're better who put humanity through the crucible? \nGods\nplans working through flawed and evil beings? Survivors of a ship\nlanding on a new earth and going native?\nIt all seems VERY New Sun to me.\n\nStarbuck is an angelic eidolon of sorts. What else could she be? It\nbegs the question of who resurrects and how? but I'm okay with the\ndelicious ambiguity there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The exceptional thing is that it happened at least _twice_; there \nwas no\nway for the \"first\" Starbuck's corpse and wreckage to have gotten from\nthe gas giant to Earth. I think this also hints that the the \ndisappeared\nStarbuck *went* somewhere instead of dissipated. Unfortunately, she is\nnot shown in the epilogue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "this is as resolved as I need it to be. my wife disagrees. The \"big\nreveal\" was her disappearance. Wouldn't angel wings or dialogue \nhave\nbeen cheesy?\nMy wife would want me to hedge that with the questions of why she had\nthat role, why she had that song? I'm okay with it. There was enough\nearly prophesy with her finding the arrow, with her as the angelic\nmasthead for Adama's boat. \"Harbinger of Doom\" is problematic. But\nagain, as we've argued on the list, an clean slate reset is often \nseen\nas doom, even though it's a rebirth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Harbinger of _death_. Which could refer to he prowess as a warrior, \nor\nthat anyone she shacks up with end up untimely dead?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Operah house has been going on since what, season 2? people kept \nsaying\nthey'd dropped the ball. I beg to differ. A good example of the \nfact\nthat they did know where they were going. I think there is enough on\ndisplay to see that they knew who it would end. it was all the \nthreads\nbeginning to end that they wove together as they went." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You made a typo there, that \"who\" was better known than \"what\" - but \nthe\nreal murkiness was what the Cylon's plot could possibly be - and we\nstill really don't have a good idea of what rational plan \"John\" could\nhave had that would have attracted the participation of the less \ninsane\nskinjobs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cavil's cop out was even ok, if a little easy. He went against all of\nhis petty issues and made a truce in the name of his peoples \nsurvival.\nHe doesn't seem to want to stay around to see it, or see it fall \napart.\nbut he killed himself instead of killing the truce." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did we watch the same show? The truce with Cavil's people ended before\nhe killed himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "funny bit with Gaelin going north.\nwonder if his strain evolves into the Gaelic peoples..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a lone, sterile cylon skinjob on an island with no people?\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C5CB79.5030109@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-22T05:24:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<000001c9aaa4$33cf1e60$9b6d5b20$@net.au>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeremy Francis wrote:\nI rarely weigh in on anything on this list but may I share my disgust with\nthat ending. It was essentially two hours of \"Oh, shit, I've backed myself\ninto a corner. How do I get out?\" This leads to some of the more absurd\nelements of the episode - the first of which was when Cavil consented to\nsome sort of treaty based on Gaius' \"I see angels!\" statement" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see a problem with cult leader Baltaar manipulating Cavil's \nsimilar religious beliefs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "followed by\nLee's \"Atavism for all, enjoy copulating with the mud-smeared natives;\nalternatively, contract diseases we'll have no hope of curing,\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He mentions giving the best part of themselves, and we know they are \nalready limited by existing medical supplies, so I don't think there's \nmuch of a choice as far as accepting diseases are concerned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "head angel\nKara (who could still fly a Viper and could be seen by all), the shoe-horned\nopera \"explanation\", and the dancing robot montage. Not to mention so many\npeople being willing to die to save one half-Cylon little girl. Might I say\nthat the \"God\" in the BSG universe is pretty stupid - so, you can send new\npeople, who fly real (apparently) Vipers, and the best means of getting\nhumanity to where they're going is to have Kara remember the coordinates\nwhen she's standing right in front of the FTL console? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Kara needed to be physical and \"real\" enough to guide the fleet, the FLT \ncoordinates were more of the same. Hera's purpose was to unite the \nraces. The volunteers doubtless had many motivations, but the mission to \nsave Hera was also guaranteed to indulge any wishes to kill lots and \nlots of Cylons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"God did it\" or \"magic did it\" out of nowhere is considered a lazy\nexplanation for a reason. Though, to be honest, I found \"Time to split up,\nwith few supplies, and not even try to create a civilisation\" even more\nridiculous. I can imagine the fleet members: \"I'm a mechanic. What the\nhell do I know about being a hunter-gatherer? Is it too late to side with\nGaeta?\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Everyone (except the Cylons) had already had experience with roughing it \nfrom the settlement of New Caprica." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At least we got Cavil blowing his brains out, Baltar's \"I know a bit about\nfarming\", and Roslin's death, which were all very effective/awesome scenes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, silly Adama, you can't marry a corpse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "? They were married shortly before the mutiny. The cabin and garden \nthing was a recap of their plans from during the settlement of New Caprica." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C5E523.50105@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-22T07:13:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<87AFBA37-BE83-4AFB-9C94-DD5CE8919C9B@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nmy basic expectation of the thing all along was that it would suck. I \ndon't watch much tv, and had expectations of stuff like Star Gate and \nStar Trek (which I can't bear to watch) when I came to this thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "SG-1 actually has some depth to it, but I agree there is sometimes a lot \noff dross to pan through to find it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, that the show even went into any of that sort of territory was \npretty damn awesome to me. so, expecting shit, and getting, say \nplatinum, if not gold, is a good run I think.\nI guess to you sci fi buffs it's a fallen promise or something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tOh absolutely! I didn't watch the first couple of seasons because the \npromotion seemed to emphasize a T&A \"charlie's angels in space\" look - \nit turned out to be much deeper than that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm curious to know what this next revers POV thing will be. Will we get \nthe plan?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "it's subtitled \"the Plan\" so we damn well better!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c9aac0$53199cc0$f94cd640$@net.au>", "from": { "name": "Jeremy Francis", "address": "francisj at iinet.net.au" }, "date": "2009-03-22T07:32:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<49C5CB79.5030109@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cavil was pretty irreligious. \"I want to SMELL dark matter! Screw you,\nmum!\"\n\nI'm also pretty sure forming a settlement would have been far more efficient\nthan splitting up. Specialisation of labour, economies of scale, and all\nthat. There is a wide gulf between having to rough it in a Dark Age era\nsettlement and being a hunter-gatherer, and I doubt they would have slipped\nthat far in terms of technology had they set up a city. \n\nAnd as to their marriage, I was just being facetious. I found that to be a\nreally touching character moment. I thought the finale had many good\ncharacter moments, but the plot was weak.\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of Jeff Wilson\nSent: Sunday, 22 March 2009 2:24 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeremy Francis wrote:\nI rarely weigh in on anything on this list but may I share my disgust with\nthat ending. It was essentially two hours of \"Oh, shit, I've backed\nmyself\ninto a corner. How do I get out?\" This leads to some of the more absurd\nelements of the episode - the first of which was when Cavil consented to\nsome sort of treaty based on Gaius' \"I see angels!\" statement" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see a problem with cult leader Baltaar manipulating Cavil's \nsimilar religious beliefs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "followed by\nLee's \"Atavism for all, enjoy copulating with the mud-smeared natives;\nalternatively, contract diseases we'll have no hope of curing,\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He mentions giving the best part of themselves, and we know they are \nalready limited by existing medical supplies, so I don't think there's \nmuch of a choice as far as accepting diseases are concerned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "head angel\nKara (who could still fly a Viper and could be seen by all), the\nshoe-horned\nopera \"explanation\", and the dancing robot montage. Not to mention so\nmany\npeople being willing to die to save one half-Cylon little girl. Might I\nsay\nthat the \"God\" in the BSG universe is pretty stupid - so, you can send new\npeople, who fly real (apparently) Vipers, and the best means of getting\nhumanity to where they're going is to have Kara remember the coordinates\nwhen she's standing right in front of the FTL console? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Kara needed to be physical and \"real\" enough to guide the fleet, the FLT \ncoordinates were more of the same. Hera's purpose was to unite the \nraces. The volunteers doubtless had many motivations, but the mission to \nsave Hera was also guaranteed to indulge any wishes to kill lots and \nlots of Cylons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"God did it\" or \"magic did it\" out of nowhere is considered a lazy\nexplanation for a reason. Though, to be honest, I found \"Time to split\nup,\nwith few supplies, and not even try to create a civilisation\" even more\nridiculous. I can imagine the fleet members: \"I'm a mechanic. What the\nhell do I know about being a hunter-gatherer? Is it too late to side with\nGaeta?\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Everyone (except the Cylons) had already had experience with roughing it \nfrom the settlement of New Caprica." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At least we got Cavil blowing his brains out, Baltar's \"I know a bit about\nfarming\", and Roslin's death, which were all very effective/awesome\nscenes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, silly Adama, you can't marry a corpse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "? They were married shortly before the mutiny. The cabin and garden \nthing was a recap of their plans from during the settlement of New Caprica." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C5F43F.2080007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-22T08:18:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<000001c9aac0$53199cc0$f94cd640$@net.au>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeremy Francis wrote:\nCavil was pretty irreligious. \"I want to SMELL dark matter! Screw you,\nmum!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He had numerous scenes justifying his decisions on religious grounds to \nthe other models. Even if he was cynically manipulating *their* beliefs, \nthat doesn't mean he can't have second thoughts when he is forced to \nquestion why things keep going wrong despite his superior forces and \nintellect. Not to mention he had Baltaar under continuous supervision \nfor as long as a year and there must have been a few \"talking to angels\" \nmoments on record, possibly including some traces of the few times Angel \nSix would move him or an object physically." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm also pretty sure forming a settlement would have been far more efficient\nthan splitting up. Specialisation of labour, economies of scale, and all\nthat. There is a wide gulf between having to rough it in a Dark Age era\nsettlement and being a hunter-gatherer, and I doubt they would have slipped\nthat far in terms of technology had they set up a city. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If they pick out the best garden spots from around the world, they can \nhave fairly pleasant living with minimal effort, and be safe from any \nsingle natural disaster or political upheaval. I think ditching all the \nships into sun was a mistake, as many of them were capable of landing \nand serving as wonderful shelters, but maybe Lee was able to talk them \nout of keeping anything worth fighting over - and after 5-6 years of \nwar, an offer of \"exchange hellholes like the Tyllium refinery ship for \nHawaii\" would be easy to sell by the man who got Baltaar acquitted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And as to their marriage, I was just being facetious. I found that to be a\nreally touching character moment. I thought the finale had many good\ncharacter moments, but the plot was weak." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000101c9aacb$be2887a0$3a7996e0$@net.au>", "from": { "name": "Jeremy Francis", "address": "francisj at iinet.net.au" }, "date": "2009-03-22T08:53:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<49C5F43F.2080007@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you underestimate the hardship of a subsistence lifestyle, no matter\nthe fertility of the area you reside in and cultivate. I doubt they had any\nseed onboard, wild strains tend to be very difficult to cultivate\nsuccessfully; spreading over the globe they would also be insuring that\nthere would be no skills sharing so that successful farmers could teach the\nunsuccessful... Their physical capital would have been non-existent, I\nmight add. Enjoy trying to build a farm with naught but your hands and a\nfew basic supplies. Basically, I'm pretty sure a death sentence was decreed\non most of the survivors by going the route they did. Even short of that,\nit would be a miserable, short existence. This is all assuming one of the\nlocal diseases, which the survivors would have had no immunity to, doesn't\nkill you off.\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of Jeff Wilson\nSent: Sunday, 22 March 2009 5:18 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeremy Francis wrote:\nCavil was pretty irreligious. \"I want to SMELL dark matter! Screw you,\nmum!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He had numerous scenes justifying his decisions on religious grounds to \nthe other models. Even if he was cynically manipulating *their* beliefs, \nthat doesn't mean he can't have second thoughts when he is forced to \nquestion why things keep going wrong despite his superior forces and \nintellect. Not to mention he had Baltaar under continuous supervision \nfor as long as a year and there must have been a few \"talking to angels\" \nmoments on record, possibly including some traces of the few times Angel \nSix would move him or an object physically." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm also pretty sure forming a settlement would have been far more\nefficient\nthan splitting up. Specialisation of labour, economies of scale, and all\nthat. There is a wide gulf between having to rough it in a Dark Age era\nsettlement and being a hunter-gatherer, and I doubt they would have\nslipped\nthat far in terms of technology had they set up a city. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If they pick out the best garden spots from around the world, they can \nhave fairly pleasant living with minimal effort, and be safe from any \nsingle natural disaster or political upheaval. I think ditching all the \nships into sun was a mistake, as many of them were capable of landing \nand serving as wonderful shelters, but maybe Lee was able to talk them \nout of keeping anything worth fighting over - and after 5-6 years of \nwar, an offer of \"exchange hellholes like the Tyllium refinery ship for \nHawaii\" would be easy to sell by the man who got Baltaar acquitted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And as to their marriage, I was just being facetious. I found that to be\na\nreally touching character moment. I thought the finale had many good\ncharacter moments, but the plot was weak." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C60796.5000902@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-22T09:40:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<000101c9aacb$be2887a0$3a7996e0$@net.au>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeremy Francis wrote:\nI think you underestimate the hardship of a subsistence lifestyle, no matter\nthe fertility of the area you reside in and cultivate. I doubt they had any\nseed onboard, wild strains tend to be very difficult to cultivate\nsuccessfully; spreading over the globe they would also be insuring that\nthere would be no skills sharing so that successful farmers could teach the\nunsuccessful... " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These concerns and the rest in your post are already addressed by their \nsurvival on the relatively barren New Caprica - If they were making a go \n of it there, they'll have a much easier time of it with plentiful game \nand if they find out they are spread too thin, they can use the \nremaining Raptors to regroup." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c9aad7$0ddabf60$29903e20$@net.au>", "from": { "name": "Jeremy Francis", "address": "francisj at iinet.net.au" }, "date": "2009-03-22T10:14:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<49C60796.5000902@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt they'll have an easier time of it. Again, I think you underestimate\nthe power of a centralised population, and overestimate how plentiful\nsustenance will be. They will have a HARDER time of it on Earth than they\ndid on New Caprica, and New Caprica forced privation on the populace.\nObviously, also, they DON'T congregate, since they're meant to fit into our\nhistory, and a civilised city-state at that point in time would have jumped\nhumanity forward many, many years. This is all part of why I think the\nfinale is ridiculous, by the way. It's just a huge stretch by the writers.\nI liked the series, I liked the character arc conclusions (except for\nAnders' and Kara's [not their relationship, I mean them]), but the plot\nconclusion I found mind-bogglingly stupid.\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of Jeff Wilson\nSent: Sunday, 22 March 2009 6:41 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeremy Francis wrote:\nI think you underestimate the hardship of a subsistence lifestyle, no\nmatter\nthe fertility of the area you reside in and cultivate. I doubt they had\nany\nseed onboard, wild strains tend to be very difficult to cultivate\nsuccessfully; spreading over the globe they would also be insuring that\nthere would be no skills sharing so that successful farmers could teach\nthe\nunsuccessful... " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These concerns and the rest in your post are already addressed by their \nsurvival on the relatively barren New Caprica - If they were making a go \n of it there, they'll have a much easier time of it with plentiful game \nand if they find out they are spread too thin, they can use the \nremaining Raptors to regroup." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C61199.3070607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-22T10:23:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<000001c9aad7$0ddabf60$29903e20$@net.au>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeremy Francis wrote:\nI doubt they'll have an easier time of it. Again, I think you underestimate\nthe power of a centralised population, and overestimate how plentiful\nsustenance will be. They will have a HARDER time of it on Earth than they\ndid on New Caprica, and New Caprica forced privation on the populace." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that it would be easier all in one place, network effects and \nall that, and if they were serious about natural disasters they'd have \nlanded a couple of ships to use for shelters and/or emergency \nevacuation. But it's not fair to say the ending is logistically dumb \nwhen the ubiquitous cigarettes and good grooming would imply they had \nentire ships full of cigarettes and hair-care products along for the \nride all along." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-22T10:27:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<49C61199.3070607@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeremy Francis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I doubt they'll have an easier time of it. Again, I think you underestimate\nthe power of a centralised population, and overestimate how plentiful\nsustenance will be. They will have a HARDER time of it on Earth than they\ndid on New Caprica, and New Caprica forced privation on the populace." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that it would be easier all in one place, network effects and \nall that, and if they were serious about natural disasters they'd have \nlanded a couple of ships to use for shelters and/or emergency \nevacuation. But it's not fair to say the ending is logistically dumb \nwhen the ubiquitous cigarettes and good grooming would imply they had \nentire ships full of cigarettes and hair-care products along for the \nride all along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given that Wolfe was writing all this, I think we need to consider more complex interpretations." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000701c9aad9$797dc300$6c794900$@net.au>", "from": { "name": "Jeremy Francis", "address": "francisj at iinet.net.au" }, "date": "2009-03-22T10:32:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The head angels were actually inter-dimensional insects? But of course!\n\n \n\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of Chris P" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sent: Sunday, 22 March 2009 7:28 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\nJeremy Francis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I doubt they'll have an easier time of it. Again, I think you\nunderestimate\nthe power of a centralised population, and overestimate how plentiful\nsustenance will be. They will have a HARDER time of it on Earth than\nthey\ndid on New Caprica, and New Caprica forced privation on the populace." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that it would be easier all in one place, network effects and \nall that, and if they were serious about natural disasters they'd have \nlanded a couple of ships to use for shelters and/or emergency \nevacuation. But it's not fair to say the ending is logistically dumb \nwhen the ubiquitous cigarettes and good grooming would imply they had \nentire ships full of cigarettes and hair-care products along for the \nride all along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given that Wolfe was writing all this, I think we need to consider more\ncomplex interpretations.\n\n _____ \n\nGet quick access to your favorite MSN content with Internet Explorer 8.\nDownload FREE now!\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903220808t6b1fa6dmaecdea773d9a879d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-22T15:08:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<000701c9aad9$797dc300$6c794900$@net.au>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I watched it last night with some friends and just want to say on record\nthat I loved it from beginning to almost the very very end when the robot\ndance montage started. But even that was a forgivable indulgence.\nI agree with Jeff's take on Cavil's motives in his last scenes. While\nexpressly an atheist character, who, like Baltar, manipulated the beliefs of\nothers, I thought that he convincingly had a moment of doubt there with\nGaius talking to him. But that doesn't really matter, as the offer of\nresurrection technology is what convinced him anyway. The suicide made\nsense--he was probably about to die anyway and his life was, in his own\nmind, worthless without Hera, so he ended it on his own terms. Of course, I\nwanted worse things for him because I hated him, but in a way committing\nsuicide over one's metaphysical despair is as bad as it gets.\n\nI think there's still some mystery about Starbuck. Unlike the angels, she\nwasn't aware of her nature until the end, and it's got to be more complex\nthan just \"eidolon.\" That only explains her corpse and disappearance, not\nher knowledge of the song. As for Harbinger of Death status, there's any\nnumber of plausible meanings to it--one of which is just that she's a\nharbinger sent from the realm of the dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 6:32 AM, Jeremy Francis wrote:\n The head angels were actually inter-dimensional insects? But of course!\n\n\n\n*From:* urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On\nBehalf Of *Chris P\n*Sent:* Sunday, 22 March 2009 7:28 PM\n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeremy Francis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I doubt they'll have an easier time of it. Again, I think you\nunderestimate\nthe power of a centralised population, and overestimate how plentiful\nsustenance will be. They will have a HARDER time of it on Earth than\nthey\ndid on New Caprica, and New Caprica forced privation on the populace." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree that it would be easier all in one place, network effects and\nall that, and if they were serious about natural disasters they'd have\nlanded a couple of ships to use for shelters and/or emergency\nevacuation. But it's not fair to say the ending is logistically dumb\nwhen the ubiquitous cigarettes and good grooming would imply they had\nentire ships full of cigarettes and hair-care products along for the\nride all along." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given that Wolfe was writing all this, I think we need to consider more\ncomplex interpretations.\n ------------------------------\n\nGet quick access to your favorite MSN content with Internet Explorer 8. Download\nFREE now!\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001c9ab0a$35712540$a0536fc0$@net.au>", "from": { "name": "Jeremy Francis", "address": "francisj at iinet.net.au" }, "date": "2009-03-22T16:21:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903220808t6b1fa6dmaecdea773d9a879d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The suicide is not what I have a problem with. I actually found that quite\nfunny and awesome, and pretty in character given how he's acted. Dean\nStockwell played him extraordinarily well. I think looking for\nexplanations for a lot of the narrative problems is fruitless. RDM is not\nGene Wolfe. Nor is he Daniel Knauf, or Alan Moore, or even J. Michael\nStraczysnki , to draw together a few different superlative writers from\nvarying mediums. The explanation for why things don't make sense is easy:\nhe didn't think things through at the beginning of the series, and thus we\nhave the quagmire of dead-end plotlines and weird plot changes. Easy\nexample: the Temple of the Five. For those thinking of a knee jerk\nreaction: no, I enjoyed the series! There is enough cool stuff in there to\nkeep me satisfied. However, a lot of the explanations feel forced. The\nfact our \"Earth\" and the 13th tribe had no connection, for example. It is\nfar more simplistic to simply ascribe the failings of the narrative to\nwriter oversight. Searching for explanations that are tenuous reeks of\nfanboy activities, at least in this context (definitely not so with respect\nto subtle writers where you're meant to draw these connections). It's still\nan enjoyable series. And I'll admit I wanted a futuristic Earth to blow\nthose uppity Colonials out of space.\n\n \n\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of John Watkins\nSent: Monday, 23 March 2009 12:09 AM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\n\n \n\nI watched it last night with some friends and just want to say on record\nthat I loved it from beginning to almost the very very end when the robot\ndance montage started. But even that was a forgivable indulgence.\n\n \n\nI agree with Jeff's take on Cavil's motives in his last scenes. While\nexpressly an atheist character, who, like Baltar, manipulated the beliefs of\nothers, I thought that he convincingly had a moment of doubt there with\nGaius talking to him. But that doesn't really matter, as the offer of\nresurrection technology is what convinced him anyway. The suicide made\nsense--he was probably about to die anyway and his life was, in his own\nmind, worthless without Hera, so he ended it on his own terms. Of course, I\nwanted worse things for him because I hated him, but in a way committing\nsuicide over one's metaphysical despair is as bad as it gets.\n\n \n\nI think there's still some mystery about Starbuck. Unlike the angels, she\nwasn't aware of her nature until the end, and it's got to be more complex\nthan just \"eidolon.\" That only explains her corpse and disappearance, not\nher knowledge of the song. As for Harbinger of Death status, there's any\nnumber of plausible meanings to it--one of which is just that she's a\nharbinger sent from the realm of the dead.\n\n \n\nOn Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 6:32 AM, Jeremy Francis \nwrote:\n\nThe head angels were actually inter-dimensional insects? But of course!\n\n \n\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On\nBehalf Of Chris P" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sent: Sunday, 22 March 2009 7:28 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\nJeremy Francis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I doubt they'll have an easier time of it. Again, I think you\nunderestimate\nthe power of a centralised population, and overestimate how plentiful\nsustenance will be. They will have a HARDER time of it on Earth than\nthey\ndid on New Caprica, and New Caprica forced privation on the populace." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that it would be easier all in one place, network effects and \nall that, and if they were serious about natural disasters they'd have \nlanded a couple of ships to use for shelters and/or emergency \nevacuation. But it's not fair to say the ending is logistically dumb \nwhen the ubiquitous cigarettes and good grooming would imply they had \nentire ships full of cigarettes and hair-care products along for the \nride all along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given that Wolfe was writing all this, I think we need to consider more\ncomplex interpretations.\n\n _____ \n\nGet quick access to your favorite MSN content with Internet Explorer 8.\nDownload FREE now!\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<14F07A71D575484AACE76DFA9808E764@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-22T21:37:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<000101c9aacb$be2887a0$3a7996e0$@net.au>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you underestimate the hardship of a subsistence lifestyle, no \nmatter\nthe fertility of the area you reside in and cultivate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course they would not last a month as farmers. They would have to beg \ntheir way into the indigenous tribes and learn to be hunter gatherers in \norder to survive. Anyone who wants to understand how impossible it would be \nfor 99.999% of Americans and Western Europeans to go back only 150 years and \nstart a farm in Kansas should read the first couple Laura Engles Wilder \nbooks. Those people spent their entire lives learning to subsistence farm \nand that was with steel plows and tools.\n\nHowever, having the colonists interbreed with pre-historic humans is the \nonly thing about this ending that I didn't mind. It's TVish and hokey but it \nworks thematically. You'd have to be at least in your 40s to remember the \n\"Chariots of the Gods\" documentary movie that so influenced the original \nBSG. But the ending works at that level.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<933992.89898.qm@web81406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-22T22:13:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<14F07A71D575484AACE76DFA9808E764@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The History Channel just aired a 2 hour \"Ancient Astronauts\" speical with Erich Von Daniken that was pretty interesting....\n\n\nSkype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Sun, 3/22/09, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, March 22, 2009, 2:37 PM\nI think you underestimate the hardship of a subsistence lifestyle, no\nmatter\nthe fertility of the area you reside in and cultivate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course they would not last a month as farmers. They would have to beg their\nway into the indigenous tribes and learn to be hunter gatherers in order to\nsurvive. Anyone who wants to understand how impossible it would be for 99.999%\nof Americans and Western Europeans to go back only 150 years and start a farm in\nKansas should read the first couple Laura Engles Wilder books. Those people\nspent their entire lives learning to subsistence farm and that was with steel\nplows and tools.\n\nHowever, having the colonists interbreed with pre-historic humans is the only\nthing about this ending that I didn't mind. It's TVish and hokey but it\nworks thematically. You'd have to be at least in your 40s to remember the\n\"Chariots of the Gods\" documentary movie that so influenced the\noriginal BSG. But the ending works at that level.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-22T22:26:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<14F07A71D575484AACE76DFA9808E764@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you underestimate the hardship of a subsistence\nlifestyle, no matter the fertility of the area you reside in and cultivate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incidentally, the SS Wolfe does a capital job of illustrating how\ncomplex successful sustainable farming is.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C6E39D.9040602@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-23T01:19:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<14F07A71D575484AACE76DFA9808E764@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI think you underestimate the hardship of a subsistence lifestyle, no \nmatter\nthe fertility of the area you reside in and cultivate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course they would not last a month as farmers. They would have to beg \ntheir way into the indigenous tribes and learn to be hunter gatherers in \norder to survive. Anyone who wants to understand how impossible it would \nbe for 99.999% of Americans and Western Europeans to go back only 150 \nyears and start a farm in Kansas should read the first couple Laura \nEngles Wilder books. Those people spent their entire lives learning to \nsubsistence farm and that was with steel plows and tools." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Ingalls did not have their choice of the entire underpopulated world \nto settle in. The Colonials could have settled in places like Hawaii, \nwhere living was so easy that historically the white exploiters could \nnot attract native laborers for any length of time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-23T02:45:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<49C6E39D.9040602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Ingalls did not have their choice of the entire underpopulated world to\nsettle in. ?The Colonials could have settled in places like Hawaii, where\nliving was so easy that historically the white exploiters could not attract\nnative laborers for any length of time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even in places like Hawaii or the Amazon rain forests, making a living\nis apparently a very specialized trick. Lots of people stranded in the\nAmazon have perished unnaturally--probably all of those who did not\nmanage to find a rope out of there. Have you seen the TV show\n'Survivor'? Sometimes the constants have a lot of experience as\nhunters and in outdoor activities, but no one seems to make it through\na month without losing a noticeable amount of weight even with an\ninitial supply of starchy staples.\n\nBut if any colonists settled in Hawaii, as far as I could tell from\nthe map, that was not the sort of places they focused on as a rule.\nThey settled in _populated_ places like Africa, the eastern Asia, and\nthe Middle East: in other words, they settled in regions where\nevidence of early man has been found. However, to the eye of people\nwith the right skills, these were seen as fertile areas. Kansas and\nMinnesota were seen as a bountifully fertile lands. Prerepublic Texas\nwas invariably described that way although the undeveloped state would\nlook like only a wilderness to me.\n\nBut as I said, while unrealistic, the colonists' method of settlement\nwas the only part of the conclusion that I didn't mind at all. It made\nperfect sense to me. They could have provided some exposition to\nexplain better how it would work successfully, and they could have\nbetter rationalized the existence of humanity on an unknown planet.\nBut considering the mess that was the rest of the episode...\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C742B8.70607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-23T08:05:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nBut if any colonists settled in Hawaii, as far as I could tell from\nthe map, that was not the sort of places they focused on as a rule.\nThey settled in _populated_ places like Africa, the eastern Asia, and\nthe Middle East: in other words, they settled in regions where\nevidence of early man has been found. However, to the eye of people\nwith the right skills, these were seen as fertile areas. Kansas and\nMinnesota were seen as a bountifully fertile lands. Prerepublic Texas\nwas invariably described that way although the undeveloped state would\nlook like only a wilderness to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I live in Texas, and it is indeed rich land, but it is still miserably \ncold her during the winter despite only snowing one or two days. I can't \nimagine preferring Minnesota over here given a choice in the 19th \ncentury, and I can't imagine preferring here over Hawaii in the same \n*informed* conditions.\n\nThe chief reason for the colonists to choose inhabited areas is that \nhabitation demonstrates the area is habitable even by people in that \nprimitive, language-less state.\n\nHm, that's a question - how does Baltaar have a background in \npalaeoanthropology, when the Colonies had no prehistory?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<198350.29107.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-23T08:35:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<49C742B8.70607@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doggerel\nwww.don-doggett.blogspot.com\n\n\n--- On Sun, 3/22/09, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n\n? The Colonials could" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "have settled in places like Hawaii, where living was so easy\nthat historically the white exploiters could not attract\nnative laborers for any length of time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why work when you can surf, brah? Seriously. I can hardly wait to see season 4, but I'm holding out for the last DVD set. I've found the show works a lot better as a drama when I watch two or three eps back to back and plow through a season in a week or so.\n\nDon\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2253.30631.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-23T12:48:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<49C6E39D.9040602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the whole subsistence/survival issue: Can I suggest that we're all thinking in the wrong way about this. I never saw BSG as anything resembling \"hard\" sf, so the question of the final move's realism is moot to me. (Besides, of course they fail: our own history didn't have some kind of magical leap in new technology from tribal to space-faring. Whatever Baltar \"knows about farming\" obviously doesn't last.)\n\nRather, it seems to me that the purpose of \"going tribal\" was largely metaphorical and suited the general moralizing tone of that final add on: even when they all start over and go native instead of trying to rebuild as they were, they start to create the same patterns they'd made before. So all of Lee's optimism is shown to be seriously questionable in the end. Even the \"unsoiled\" natives end up creating machines again in the end.\n\n\nThe only potential nod to the actual implausibility to me seemed to be when Adama says something about how none of their home worlds had as much wildlife as Earth. So maybe that was to suggest that they were used to a more difficult prospect of farming/hunting? I doubt it, really, but whatever. I just don't feel it necessary to start wondering about the viability of starting a subsistence lifestyle in a story where angels-are-robots-are-angels and dead people come back (and disappear) with no exaplanation and robots-that-look-like-people (and who wear fashionable clothes but live on gritty space rocks) end up mating with people to save both species. \n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 8:19:25 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI think you underestimate the hardship of a subsistence lifestyle, no matter\nthe fertility of the area you reside in and cultivate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course they would not last a month as farmers. They would have to beg their way into the indigenous tribes and learn to be hunter gatherers in order to survive. Anyone who wants to understand how impossible it would be for 99.999% of Americans and Western Europeans to go back only 150 years and start a farm in Kansas should read the first couple Laura Engles Wilder books. Those people spent their entire lives learning to subsistence farm and that was with steel plows and tools." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Ingalls did not have their choice of the entire underpopulated world to settle in. The Colonials could have settled in places like Hawaii, where living was so easy that historically the white exploiters could not attract native laborers for any length of time.\n\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-23T17:04:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<2253.30631.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This \"Ancient Astronauts\" sort of idea is one of the best aspects of the endings. all the cultural reports of knowledge being handed down from the gods... funny. OF course they had to get rid of the ships. there's none in our archeological record. (not that they would care when deciding...)\n\ncouple things:\nA few of the responses about how hard subsistence farming is, along with the tone of some of the responses regarding primtive humans, makes it much more clearer to me why Kara was the Harbinger Of Doom. This sort of ending is a doom for many people. Just as many people read the Urth/Ushas rebirth as a horrible tragedy, many would see this the same.\nYeah, it would be really hard to live like that, but the point is that they're going native. \n\nIf this story had one basic msg (along with it's many subthemes) it's that our technology destroys us or alienates us from our humanity. Moore's answer is sort of comically simple. Throw it all away and go native. I really took the ending as a sort of lark twist ending. The whole show had been so serious, juggling one double edged sword after another. They just used the classic tongue in cheek twist ending tone to give us our final double edged sword as a sort of lighthearted joke. It ties in very well thematically, if a little hard to swallow that everyone would go along with it.\n\nalso: some grumbling over the fact that they spread out rather than forming a society. I'm sure that in the 40,000 left, some spread, some stayed together.\n\nRe: Adama choosing to live where Roslin died. It's LITERALLY perfect. He took the prophesy absolutely to the letter. \"The dying leader will guide them to their new home\" Adama went with her all the way to the point where she died, and that was his new home. not one step further, not one step back. They dying leader was dying all along, but she only really died then. so, a perfectly literal enactment of the prophesy.\n\nalso: some grumbling about Hera being useless in light of interbreeding with Natives. Nah. She was just the evidence and symbol of hope that showed them the possibility and brought them together. There's nothing particular about her genetics that is overridden by the native opportunity. Just a symbol and catalyst.\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The History Channel just aired a 2 hour \"Ancient Astronauts\" speical with Erich Von Daniken that was pretty interesting....\n\n\nSkype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Sun, 3/22/09, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903231039i16c00aadw464d7cc2b6b8c252@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-23T17:39:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took the Harbinger of Doom thing to be the fact that she led them to the\nfirst Blasted Earth. That was pretty doomish, and she was responsible for\nthat, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nThis \"Ancient Astronauts\" sort of idea is one of the best aspects of the\nendings. all the cultural reports of knowledge being handed down from the\ngods... funny. OF course they had to get rid of the ships. there's none in\nour archeological record. (not that they would care when deciding...)\n\ncouple things:\nA few of the responses about how hard subsistence farming is, along with\nthe tone of some of the responses regarding primtive humans, makes it much\nmore clearer to me why Kara was the Harbinger Of Doom. This sort of ending\nis a doom for many people. Just as many people read the Urth/Ushas rebirth\nas a horrible tragedy, many would see this the same.\nYeah, it would be really hard to live like that, but the point is that\nthey're going native.\n\nIf this story had one basic msg (along with it's many subthemes) it's that\nour technology destroys us or alienates us from our humanity. Moore's\nanswer is sort of comically simple. Throw it all away and go native. I\nreally took the ending as a sort of lark twist ending. The whole show had\nbeen so serious, juggling one double edged sword after another. They just\nused the classic tongue in cheek twist ending tone to give us our final\ndouble edged sword as a sort of lighthearted joke. It ties in very well\nthematically, if a little hard to swallow that everyone would go along with\nit.\n\nalso: some grumbling over the fact that they spread out rather than forming\na society. I'm sure that in the 40,000 left, some spread, some stayed\ntogether.\n\nRe: Adama choosing to live where Roslin died. It's LITERALLY perfect. He\ntook the prophesy absolutely to the letter. \"The dying leader will guide\nthem to their new home\" Adama went with her all the way to the point where\nshe died, and that was his new home. not one step further, not one step\nback. They dying leader was dying all along, but she only really died then.\n so, a perfectly literal enactment of the prophesy.\n\nalso: some grumbling about Hera being useless in light of interbreeding\nwith Natives. Nah. She was just the evidence and symbol of hope that showed\nthem the possibility and brought them together. There's nothing particular\nabout her genetics that is overridden by the native opportunity. Just a\nsymbol and catalyst.\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The History Channel just aired a 2 hour \"Ancient Astronauts\" speical with\nErich Von Daniken that was pretty interesting....\n\n\nSkype stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Sun, 3/22/09, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-23T18:21:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903231039i16c00aadw464d7cc2b6b8c252@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, but they kept up with after that. Anders repeated it once he got jacked in and all oracular." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Monday, March 23, 2009 10:39 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler\n\nI took the Harbinger of Doom thing to be the fact that she led them to the\nfirst Blasted Earth. That was pretty doomish, and she was responsible for\nthat, too.\n\nOn Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This \"Ancient Astronauts\" sort of idea is one of the best aspects of the\nendings. all the cultural reports of knowledge being handed down from the\ngods... funny. OF course they had to get rid of the ships. there's none in\nour archeological record. (not that they would care when deciding...)\n\ncouple things:\nA few of the responses about how hard subsistence farming is, along with\nthe tone of some of the responses regarding primtive humans, makes it much\nmore clearer to me why Kara was the Harbinger Of Doom. This sort of ending\nis a doom for many people. Just as many people read the Urth/Ushas rebirth\nas a horrible tragedy, many would see this the same.\nYeah, it would be really hard to live like that, but the point is that\nthey're going native.\n\nIf this story had one basic msg (along with it's many subthemes) it's that\nour technology destroys us or alienates us from our humanity. Moore's\nanswer is sort of comically simple. Throw it all away and go native. I\nreally took the ending as a sort of lark twist ending. The whole show had\nbeen so serious, juggling one double edged sword after another. They just\nused the classic tongue in cheek twist ending tone to give us our final\ndouble edged sword as a sort of lighthearted joke. It ties in very well\nthematically, if a little hard to swallow that everyone would go along with\nit.\n\nalso: some grumbling over the fact that they spread out rather than forming\na society. I'm sure that in the 40,000 left, some spread, some stayed\ntogether.\n\nRe: Adama choosing to live where Roslin died. It's LITERALLY perfect. He\ntook the prophesy absolutely to the letter. \"The dying leader will guide\nthem to their new home\" Adama went with her all the way to the point where\nshe died, and that was his new home. not one step further, not one step\nback. They dying leader was dying all along, but she only really died then.\n so, a perfectly literal enactment of the prophesy.\n\nalso: some grumbling about Hera being useless in light of interbreeding\nwith Natives. Nah. She was just the evidence and symbol of hope that showed\nthem the possibility and brought them together. There's nothing particular\nabout her genetics that is overridden by the native opportunity. Just a\nsymbol and catalyst.\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The History Channel just aired a 2 hour \"Ancient Astronauts\" speical with\nErich Von Daniken that was pretty interesting....\n\n\nSkype stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Sun, 3/22/09, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2009-03-23T18:53:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<056CE1C97DA54317B6A9B105DE186373@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 4:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nHere there be spoilers.\n\nI am not convinced (and very much doubt) that the writers of BSG had these\nparticular resolutions to the visions in mind when they wrote them or any\nresolution at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They have been clear (in specials, interviews, etc.) that they made up a lot\nof things as they went along. Whether that is a plus or minus is a matter\nof taste.\n\nI think they decided at the end to have a final showdown in the C&C room and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "so formed it to vaguely fit the visions. The question left open was \"Why did\nthis need a vision?\" It didn't. If God could arrange a race on far-away\nplanet have DNA compatible with the colonists, then He didn't need that song\nand dance to get Hera to the Bridge. It was a big build-up for very little\npay-off." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is always a problem when God is a character - \"Why doesn't He just do\nX?\", where X would save everybody a lot of trouble." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe has no problem with involving the Increate or Outsider in his\nstories, but in all cases He works his plans through rational events," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I've missed some things, but my impression has been that Wolfe refers\nto the Increate some, hints at His involvement a whole lot, but rarely has\nHim as an actual character. Even those who claim to carry out His will are\n(in general) just guessing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and, when he acts directly (ala Outsider), Wolfe makes him a character in\nthe story who can explain Himself and His motives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I may have forgotten a scene or two. Did the Outsider have a page or\ntwo of exposition where He explained why they were all in this giant rock\ntraveling to a planet of vampire-plants while worshiping a two-headed\nnutcase?\n\nWolfe is a great writer, but even he is not up to explaining why God does\nwhat He does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's none of that in BSG, because, I presume, they find the idea of a\nrational, \"actual\" God to be a little quaint. So when they tell a story\nwhere such a Person exists, he ends up cartoony and quaint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The God of BSG is more like the Increate than the Outsider. Even the angels\ncan only guess at what He wants. The theodicy is simply \"We don't know why\nit's that way\". If this seems cartoony then whole areas of religion,\nparticularly mysticism, must also seem cartoony." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roslin came off looking like a pretty cold cookie as well. She could have\nat least put $50 in the guy's pocket. Its not like Wolfe's protagonists\nalways behave so admirably either, but when Sev takes advantage of the\npassed out Jolenta, no one imagines it to be a meaningful step in his\npersonal development." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why give him $50? It was consensual sex between adults, not a financial\ntransaction. She asked him to leave shortly afterwards (and one can\nspeculate on why - my bet is that she realized that she had used having sex\nwith a younger man as a form of self-affirmation (after a recent\ndepression), and decided that he deserved better than to be used as an\nobject, so sent him away before a real relationship could develop), but the\npoint is that this is how things happen to real people sometimes. In BSG\npeople have (and don't have) sex for all sorts of human reasons, and have\nall sorts of human reactions. In Wolfe people apparently have sex to show\nwhat bad people they are, and suffer for it later.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Enamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<393DBBFBD61F46CF9B2C803DF35840A0@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-23T19:26:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, I may have forgotten a scene or two.\nDid the Outsider have a page or two of exposition where\nHe explained why they were all in this giant rock traveling\nto a planet of vampire-plants while worshiping a\ntwo-headed nutcase?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the LS the Outsider is an actual character who goes on quite a bit about \nhis relationship to the Whorl gods and his intentions. That's what I was \nreferring to. He's almost as much a character as Aslan in, say, \"The Horse \nand His Boy\" while manipulating the narrative less. He doesn't explain Pas \nbecause he didn't invent Pas. He doesn't explain everything, because no \ncharacter ever does. The Increate is not a character in NS, and if he \nperforms miracles, I'm not aware of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The God of BSG is more like the Increate than the Outsider.\nEven the angels can only guess at what He wants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But He's much more inclined to perform miracles without much explanation for \nwhy He's doing them...except that He likes cliff-hangers. That's very handy \nfor lazy serial writers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If this seems cartoony then whole areas of religion,\nparticularly mysticism, must also seem cartoony." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all. The BSG god is a god as a-term-for-we-know-not-what. It can \nquite literally mean whatever you want it to mean. It is an idea of God that \ndenies rationality. Baltar makes that quite clear. And despite all the \nsermons by Baltar that we have heard over the last 2 years, I challenge you \nto tell me what his followers believed about Him. Christian mystics \nacknowledge that there is a lot about God that we don't understand, but you \ncan understand aspects of God they describe.\n\nThat's alright with me. It is a frequent presentation of God in movies. The \nproblem is when such a god becomes the primary mover of the \nnarrative...which he did in BSG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why give him $50? It was consensual sex between adults,\nnot a financial transaction. She asked him to leave shortly afterwards" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe what she said was \"You can show yourself out\" meaning \"It's time \nfor you to go _now_ and I mean _right_ now.\" Leno once asked Charlie Sheen \nwhy he utilizes prostitutes when he could self-evidently get it for free. He \nresponded \"I don't pay them for sex. I pay them to go home.\" If you're a big \nenough jerk, you don't even have to pay for that. She couldn't have even \ngone out for breakfast with the guy? Reverse the gender and you can see that \nsuch a scene (ala in \"Iron Man\") could not be written except to degrade the \ncharacter being sent home." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for all sorts of\nhuman reasons, and have all sorts of human reactions.\nIn Wolfe people apparently have sex to show what bad\npeople they are, and suffer for it later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's ridiculous. Do you really intend to compare the writing of BSG to \nWolfe in favor of BSG? Incidentally, I thought the one other use of sex in \nthe Caprica arc that I have not addressed yet--a strip club-- was nothing \nbut exploitive.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903231242x62c3ea0r36b2aa370ef0f5ae@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-23T19:42:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<393DBBFBD61F46CF9B2C803DF35840A0@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 3:26 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not at all. The BSG god is a god as a-term-for-we-know-not-what. It can\nquite literally mean whatever you want it to mean. It is an idea of God that\ndenies rationality. Baltar makes that quite clear. And despite all the\nsermons by Baltar that we have heard over the last 2 years, I challenge you\nto tell me what his followers believed about Him. Christian mystics\nacknowledge that there is a lot about God that we don't understand, but you\ncan understand aspects of God they describe.\n\nThat's alright with me. It is a frequent presentation of God in movies. The\nproblem is when such a god becomes the primary mover of the\nnarrative...which he did in BSG." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never thought the viewer of BSG was supposed to take Baltar's mysticism\nthe least bit seriously. He was as phony as they come and the fact that he\nnever spouted a coherent philosophy reflected that. Only his statements on\nthe \"angels\" he saw were heartfelt. The fact that his confused,\npost-atheist ramblings struck a chord with Cavil had as much to do with\nCavil's own weird relationship with religion than with the legitimacy of\nBaltar's point. Note that convicted atheist Bill Adama didn't seem to have\na major change of heart due to anything Baltar said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe what she said was \"You can show yourself out\" meaning \"It's time\nfor you to go _now_ and I mean _right_ now.\" Leno once asked Charlie Sheen\nwhy he utilizes prostitutes when he could self-evidently get it for free. He\nresponded \"I don't pay them for sex. I pay them to go home.\" If you're a big\nenough jerk, you don't even have to pay for that. She couldn't have even\ngone out for breakfast with the guy? Reverse the gender and you can see that\nsuch a scene (ala in \"Iron Man\") could not be written except to degrade the\ncharacter being sent home." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or to show some of Roslin's ability to be cold, ruthless, or just flat-out\nunsympathetic. I bought it for her character all the way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for all sorts of\nhuman reasons, and have all sorts of human reactions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In Wolfe people apparently have sex to show what bad\npeople they are, and suffer for it later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's ridiculous. Do you really intend to compare the writing of BSG to\nWolfe in favor of BSG? Incidentally, I thought the one other use of sex in\nthe Caprica arc that I have not addressed yet--a strip club-- was nothing\nbut exploitive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ehh. I thought the scene was tame in a show for adults and I thought that\nit fit the Ellen/Saul relationship, which otherwise didn't get a lot of\nfocus in the finale." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-23T19:42:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903231242x62c3ea0r36b2aa370ef0f5ae@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just want to point out that when I compared BSG to New Sun, it was not Moore to Wolfe, but \"Some Themes & Plot in BSG\" to \"Some Themes & Plot in BotNS\"\nThis thing does not have the subtlety of Wolfe. no one would or should expect that from a tv show.\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at gmail.com]\nSent: Monday, March 23, 2009 12:26 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Again, I may have forgotten a scene or two.\nDid the Outsider have a page or two of exposition where\nHe explained why they were all in this giant rock traveling\nto a planet of vampire-plants while worshiping a\ntwo-headed nutcase?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the LS the Outsider is an actual character who goes on quite a bit about \nhis relationship to the Whorl gods and his intentions. That's what I was \nreferring to. He's almost as much a character as Aslan in, say, \"The Horse \nand His Boy\" while manipulating the narrative less. He doesn't explain Pas \nbecause he didn't invent Pas. He doesn't explain everything, because no \ncharacter ever does. The Increate is not a character in NS, and if he \nperforms miracles, I'm not aware of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The God of BSG is more like the Increate than the Outsider.\nEven the angels can only guess at what He wants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But He's much more inclined to perform miracles without much explanation for \nwhy He's doing them...except that He likes cliff-hangers. That's very handy \nfor lazy serial writers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If this seems cartoony then whole areas of religion,\nparticularly mysticism, must also seem cartoony." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not at all. The BSG god is a god as a-term-for-we-know-not-what. It can \nquite literally mean whatever you want it to mean. It is an idea of God that \ndenies rationality. Baltar makes that quite clear. And despite all the \nsermons by Baltar that we have heard over the last 2 years, I challenge you \nto tell me what his followers believed about Him. Christian mystics \nacknowledge that there is a lot about God that we don't understand, but you \ncan understand aspects of God they describe.\n\nThat's alright with me. It is a frequent presentation of God in movies. The \nproblem is when such a god becomes the primary mover of the \nnarrative...which he did in BSG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why give him $50? It was consensual sex between adults,\nnot a financial transaction. She asked him to leave shortly afterwards" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe what she said was \"You can show yourself out\" meaning \"It's time \nfor you to go _now_ and I mean _right_ now.\" Leno once asked Charlie Sheen \nwhy he utilizes prostitutes when he could self-evidently get it for free. He \nresponded \"I don't pay them for sex. I pay them to go home.\" If you're a big \nenough jerk, you don't even have to pay for that. She couldn't have even \ngone out for breakfast with the guy? Reverse the gender and you can see that \nsuch a scene (ala in \"Iron Man\") could not be written except to degrade the \ncharacter being sent home." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for all sorts of\nhuman reasons, and have all sorts of human reactions.\nIn Wolfe people apparently have sex to show what bad\npeople they are, and suffer for it later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's ridiculous. Do you really intend to compare the writing of BSG to \nWolfe in favor of BSG? Incidentally, I thought the one other use of sex in \nthe Caprica arc that I have not addressed yet--a strip club-- was nothing \nbut exploitive.\n\nJ \n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2009-03-23T22:40:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<393DBBFBD61F46CF9B2C803DF35840A0@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 3:26 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n The God of BSG is more like the Increate than the Outsider." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Even the angels can only guess at what He wants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But He's much more inclined to perform miracles without much explanation\nfor why He's doing them...except that He likes cliff-hangers. That's very\nhandy for lazy serial writers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Miraculous events happen in both BSG and UotNS. In neither case is an\nexplanation given. \"It's the power of the New Sun\" is not much of an\nexplanation - sometimes things work, and sometimes they don't. It may be\n(certainly is) that Wolfe is better at using miracles in a story. That\ndoesn't mean the BSG writers find God to be quaint (or are attempting to\nwrite a quaint, cartoony God), just that they are not as successful in\naddressing miracles as Wolfe is.\n\n If this seems cartoony then whole areas of religion," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "particularly mysticism, must also seem cartoony." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not at all. The BSG god is a god as a-term-for-we-know-not-what. It can\nquite literally mean whatever you want it to mean. It is an idea of God that\ndenies rationality. Baltar makes that quite clear. And despite all the\nsermons by Baltar that we have heard over the last 2 years, I challenge you\nto tell me what his followers believed about Him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The BSG god is viewed differently by different people in the fleet. The\nvast majority are like Cargo - polytheists. Baltar, despite talking to an\nangel quite a bit, has no knowledge others lack. Nor is he meant as a\nspokesperson for the author(s)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's alright with me. It is a frequent presentation of God in movies. The\nproblem is when such a god becomes the primary mover of the\nnarrative...which he did in BSG." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is the heart of the matter. IMHO, the primary mover of both\nBSG and UotNS is not the transcendent, but people's beliefs about the\ntranscendent. In both cases people are in bad shape and yearn for a\nprophesized salvation. In both cases miraculous events happen, but could\nalways just be advanced technology. In neither case does anything\ntranscendent break though and show people the score - they have to decide\nwhat to make of things on their own.\n\nAside from the writing quality, if the God of BSG seems cartoony compared to\nthe Increate that is because people in BSG had cartoony ideas about God.\nThat may result from different opinions the writers have about religion, but\nreligion != God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Why give him $50? It was consensual sex between adults,\nnot a financial transaction. She asked him to leave shortly afterwards" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe what she said was \"You can show yourself out\" meaning \"It's time\nfor you to go _now_ and I mean _right_ now.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, she said a few things to get him to leave, including asking and\nsuggesting he show himself out. There is no requirement, even in terms of\nthe BSG story, to think that she acted as anything but a gaint jerk in this\nscene. However, I think it is easy/correct to interpret her as doing the\nright thing as best she could, and the fact that this scene can be\ninterpreted this way is evidence that the BSG writers were better at\nportraying sexual relations than Wolfe has been." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Leno once asked Charlie Sheen why he utilizes prostitutes when he could\nself-evidently get it for free. He responded \"I don't pay them for sex. I\npay them to go home.\" If you're a big enough jerk, you don't even have to\npay for that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's your point? It did not start as prostitution, did not end as\nprostitution, and was not prostitution at any time in between." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She couldn't have even gone out for breakfast with the guy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. While looking at herself in the mirror (cue self-reflection) she\nrealized that what she had done/was doing was the wrong thing. Entering\ninto a relationship with a younger man based primarily on physical\nattraction would ruin her in the end. What she needed was meaningful work\nand a relationship with an equal.\n\nSo what to do? The problem is, this cute guy is laying there in that soft,\nwarm bed. She knows if she gets back in, she'll never get out again. So\nshe makes it quick, and kind of harsh. The best way to end this, the one\nwith the least suffering, is to do it quickly. Is it a downer for him?\nSure. But better than the alternative.\n\nThis was how it played to me when I saw it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reverse the gender and you can see that such a scene (ala in \"Iron Man\")\ncould not be written except to degrade the character being sent home." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "a) Reversing genders in sexual politics almost never leads to symmetry.\nb) The rewrite is not that hard in this case. Harrison Ford wakes up in the\nmiddle of the night, ex-student(s) nearby. He looks in the mirror and\nrealizes he's too old for this crap. He calls the CIA and gets another\nNazi-fighting job, then herds the ex-student(s) out of his room with some\nlame excuse about keeping tenure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for all sorts of\nhuman reasons, and have all sorts of human reactions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In Wolfe people apparently have sex to show what bad\npeople they are, and suffer for it later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's ridiculous. Do you really intend to compare the writing of BSG to\nWolfe in favor of BSG?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yup. In the case of male-female sexual relationships, BSG beats the pants\noff of Wolfe. The motivations of the people involved and the effects the\nrelationships have on them in BSG are more interesting and realistic than\nwhat Wolfe has shown." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, I thought the one other use of sex in the Caprica arc that I\nhave not addressed yet--a strip club-- was nothing but exploitive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reply is already too long, but don't forget Baltar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "J" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Enamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-23T23:27:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "there's some interesting stuff in this article:\n\nhttp://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-daybreak-finale-moore-mcdonnell-olmos.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0033322a68a8cc7e7f5bc6b02488b315.squirrel@webmail.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-24T02:24:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just want to point out that when I compared BSG to New Sun, it was not\nMoore to Wolfe, but \"Some Themes & Plot in BSG\" to \"Some Themes & Plot in\nBotNS\"\nThis thing does not have the subtlety of Wolfe. no one would or should\nexpect that from a tv show." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They might not expect it, but something like it is to be found in LEXX of\nall places. Behind the farce is something very close to Wolfean themes on\nsex and religion and political power." } ] }, { "message_id": "<965C0272776C478695CC1F8C453AB143@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-24T14:10:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel: In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for\nall sorts of human reasons, and have all sorts of\nhuman reactions. In Wolfe people apparently have\nsex to show what bad people they are, and suffer for it later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wynn: That's ridiculous. Do you really intend to compare the\nwriting of BSG to Wolfe in favor of BSG?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel: Yup. In the case of male-female sexual relationships,\nBSG beats the pants off of Wolfe. The motivations of the\npeople involved and the effects the relationships have on\nthem in BSG are more interesting and realistic than what\nWolfe has shown." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe doesn't typically set his scenes in \"naturalistic\" settings so I think \nyou are comparing things that don't map. For example, while the sexual \nrelationship between the characters in \"Counting Cats In Zanzibar\" is \nrealistic, the setting is bizarrely unconventional.\n\nBut your original statement that \"In Wolfe people apparently have sex to \nshow what bad people they are, and suffer for it later\" is simply not based \non...well, anything that I can see.. You are essentially ascribing to Wolfe \nthe stated opinions of Incus. That's just nonsense. I started to list all \nthe instances of Wolfe characters who are having sex with each other but it \nstarted to get silly. Some people in Wolfe stories have sex and it ends \nbadly, but not because of the sex unless it was rape (and not always then). \nCertainly, no one's sexual relationship in BSG ended well except for Baltar \nand Six's.\n\nIf I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be \"sex invariability \ncauses people to act treacherously or cruelly.\"\n\nWe like what we like. I wouldn't spend 2 minutes watching \"Grey's Anatomy\" \nor similar dramas regardless of how interesting (to some) or realistic the \nrelationships are. Not my cup 'o tea. That's what the flashbacks in the \nfinale reminded me of. They certainly didn't move forward or explain \nanything in the current narrative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[regarding the sexual scenes in BSG finale]\nThis reply is already too long, but don't forget Baltar." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did Baltar even have sex in the final episode? If not (and I'm thinking not) \nit a first. Certainly, Baltar and Six's relationship was hardly less \nrealistic than Wolfe's and, in general, its purpose was titilation.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C93E74.4070904@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-24T20:11:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<965C0272776C478695CC1F8C453AB143@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nno one's sexual relationship in \nBSG ended well except for Baltar and Six's.\n\nIf I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be \"sex \ninvariability causes people to act treacherously or cruelly.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There were at least three healthy physical relationships in BSG, all \nbetween married couples: Athena/Helo, Bill/Laura, and Galen/Callie. As \nfor Ellen/Saul - well, as long as they stayed together they were fine, \ntheir problem was not having enough sex to suit Ellen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did Baltar even have sex in the final episode? If not (and I'm thinking \nnot) it a first. Certainly, Baltar and Six's relationship was hardly \nless realistic than Wolfe's and, in general, its purpose was titilation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC Baltaar failed to have sex in most of the episodes with Pegasus Six \nand IIRC during the mutiny. The rest of the time would be about half and \nhalf - of course, half of 73 episodes is still a lot of sex for one farm \nboy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903241318p7e345cb2s30dccceaffc3da38@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-24T20:18:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<49C93E74.4070904@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "no one's sexual relationship in BSG ended well except for Baltar and\nSix's.\n\nIf I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be \"sex invariability\ncauses people to act treacherously or cruelly.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There were at least three healthy physical relationships in BSG, all\nbetween married couples: Athena/Helo, Bill/Laura, and Galen/Callie. As for\nEllen/Saul - well, as long as they stayed together they were fine, their\nproblem was not having enough sex to suit Ellen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with your general point, but Galen/Callie was *not *a healthy\nrelationship. Galen/Boomer was for as long as it lasted despite being\nillicit and therefore covert. Also, unless I missed something in the\nwebisodes, isn't the relationship with Hoshi about the only think Gaeta has\ngoing for him toward the end?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did Baltar even have sex in the final episode? If not (and I'm thinking\nnot) it a first. Certainly, Baltar and Six's relationship was hardly less\nrealistic than Wolfe's and, in general, its purpose was titilation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IIRC Baltaar failed to have sex in most of the episodes with Pegasus Six\nand IIRC during the mutiny. The rest of the time would be about half and\nhalf - of course, half of 73 episodes is still a lot of sex for one farm\nboy.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<943855.13752.qm@web180206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2009-03-24T20:32:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the LS the Outsider is an actual character who goes\non quite a bit about \nhis relationship to the Whorl gods and his intentions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's what I was \nreferring to. He's almost as much a character as\nAslan in, say, \"The Horse \nand His Boy\" while manipulating the narrative\nless. He doesn't explain Pas \nbecause he didn't invent Pas. > " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you supply some text references? I don't remember any of this.\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903241334k3dc32498sad3e929177638393@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-24T20:34:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<943855.13752.qm@web180206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where Thelx Holds Up a Mirror, or whatever that chapter's called." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:32 PM, John Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In the LS the Outsider is an actual character who goes\non quite a bit about\nhis relationship to the Whorl gods and his intentions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's what I was\nreferring to. He's almost as much a character as\nAslan in, say, \"The Horse\nand His Boy\" while manipulating the narrative\nless. He doesn't explain Pas\nbecause he didn't invent Pas. >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you supply some text references? I don't remember any of this.\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2009-03-24T20:51:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<965C0272776C478695CC1F8C453AB143@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 10:10 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nEnamel: In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for\nall sorts of human reasons, and have all sorts of\nhuman reactions. In Wolfe people apparently have\nsex to show what bad people they are, and suffer for it later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Wynn: That's ridiculous. Do you really intend to compare the\nwriting of BSG to Wolfe in favor of BSG?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Enamel: Yup. In the case of male-female sexual relationships,\nBSG beats the pants off of Wolfe. The motivations of the\npeople involved and the effects the relationships have on\nthem in BSG are more interesting and realistic than what\nWolfe has shown." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe doesn't typically set his scenes in \"naturalistic\" settings so I\nthink you are comparing things that don't map." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "BSG is hardly naturalistic. Sci-fi (even the pulp sci-fi Wolfe uses for his\nown ends) is still about people, what happens to them, and how they deal\nwith it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For example, while the sexual relationship between the characters in\n\"Counting Cats In Zanzibar\" is realistic, the setting is bizarrely\nunconventional." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Short stories should be left aside. The sort of\ncharacter-development-through-a-sexual-relationship I'm referring to takes\nmore time than a typical short story has." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But your original statement that \"In Wolfe people apparently have sex to\nshow what bad people they are, and suffer for it later\" is simply not based\non...well, anything that I can see.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian/Jolenta - Sev as date-rapist\nSilk/Hyacinth - Silk loves unworthy woman, kills self over it\nBaldanders/little boy - homosexual child molestation\nSeverian/Dorcas - it's his grandmother!\nAble/Dsiri - romantic love points in the wrong direction, and he is less for\nhaving it\nThere are Doors - have sex and die\nLatro - he may have sex, but can never really have a relationship\nHorn/Seawrack - she's a giant prawn!\n\nThere may be a pattern here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are essentially ascribing to Wolfe the stated opinions of Incus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "St. Paul. And I'm not ascribing them to Wolfe, just describing what I see\nin his work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's just nonsense. I started to list all the instances of Wolfe\ncharacters who are having sex with each other but it started to get silly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe portrays characters that have sex. That sex is not always\ndestructive. Major characters in Wolfe novels, when they have \"on air\" sex,\nhave sex that is destructive and degrading, and the relationships it occurs\nin is one of exploitation. Said another way, Wolfe never seems to portray a\nhealthy, sexual relationship, one in which his characters grow or benefit\nfrom each other. Not untroubled, not happy-ever-after. Just healthy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some people in Wolfe stories have sex and it ends badly, but not because of\nthe sex unless it was rape (and not always then). Certainly, no one's sexual\nrelationship in BSG ended well except for Baltar and Six's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the end everyone is dead. But for other good relationships:\nAdama/Roslin\nAthena/Helo\nSaul/Ellen Tigh - troubled, but ultimately happy, an interesting contrast to\nSilk/Hyacinth\n\nThere were some destructive (\"bad\") relationships, too. That happens.\nWolfe knows that. He just seems uninterested in portraying any good ones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be \"sex invariability\ncauses people to act treacherously or cruelly.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've confused Wolfe and BSG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We like what we like. I wouldn't spend 2 minutes watching \"Grey's Anatomy\"\nor similar dramas regardless of how interesting (to some) or realistic the\nrelationships are. Not my cup 'o tea. That's what the flashbacks in the\nfinale reminded me of. They certainly didn't move forward or explain\nanything in the current narrative." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We agree - soap operas don't interest me, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " [regarding the sexual scenes in BSG finale]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This reply is already too long, but don't forget Baltar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did Baltar even have sex in the final episode? If not (and I'm thinking\nnot) it a first. Certainly, Baltar and Six's relationship was hardly less\nrealistic than Wolfe's and, in general, its purpose was titilation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Baltar starts out as very much as if Wolfe had written him. His\nrelationships are based solely on the sex that his money and fame can get\nhim. In the end he grows a lot through his relationship(s). He is a better\nman for them. Which Wolfean protagonist can say the same? Sev? Silk?\nLatro?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "J." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Enamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903241400x9842094j9581f07c827b0056@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-24T21:00:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Thomas Bitterman wrote:\nOn Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 10:10 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Enamel: In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " But your original statement that \"In Wolfe people apparently have sex to\nshow what bad people they are, and suffer for it later\" is simply not based\non...well, anything that I can see.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian/Jolenta - Sev as date-rapist\nSilk/Hyacinth - Silk loves unworthy woman, kills self over it\nBaldanders/little boy - homosexual child molestation\nSeverian/Dorcas - it's his grandmother!\nAble/Dsiri - romantic love points in the wrong direction, and he is less\nfor having it\nThere are Doors - have sex and die\nLatro - he may have sex, but can never really have a relationship\nHorn/Seawrack - she's a giant prawn!\n\nThere may be a pattern here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not how I read Silk/Hyacinth, Severian/Dorcas, Able/Dsiri or There\nAre Doors (although to be honest I have no clue what was going on in that\none. Silk makes a Christlike action chasing after Hyacinth instead of going\nto the lander, and Able's relationship with Dsiri is redeemed and\ntransfigured by his gift of blood. The idea of a male priestly or godly\nfigure sacrificing himself for a less worthy female figure may be misogynist\nin the sense that Wolfe is repeatedly chosing it to symbolize the\nrelationship between Christ and humanity when other symbols are available,\nbut it's hard to say that it's an attack on sexual love--it's actual a\nrecognition of a not-especially-controversial traditional understanding of\nerotic love as a prefiguration or \"gateway drug\" for the love of the\ndivine.\n\nAnd yes, I certainly think that Severian is a better man for his love for\nDorcas, and Able is transparently a better man for his love for Dsiri (even\nif a love for the Most High God would have made him a better man still.)\nSilk wound up shattered by his relationship with Hyacinth, of course, but\nagain, the Good Sheperd pursuing the wayward sheep rather than going with\nhis flock is not foolish or in error--he's clearly doing the right thing by\nWolfe's lights." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are essentially ascribing to Wolfe the stated opinions of Incus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "St. Paul. And I'm not ascribing them to Wolfe, just describing what I see\nin his work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's just nonsense. I started to list all the instances of Wolfe\ncharacters who are having sex with each other but it started to get silly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe portrays characters that have sex. That sex is not always\ndestructive. Major characters in Wolfe novels, when they have \"on air\" sex,\nhave sex that is destructive and degrading, and the relationships it occurs\nin is one of exploitation. Said another way, Wolfe never seems to portray a\nhealthy, sexual relationship, one in which his characters grow or benefit\nfrom each other. Not untroubled, not happy-ever-after. Just healthy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some people in Wolfe stories have sex and it ends badly, but not because\nof the sex unless it was rape (and not always then). Certainly, no one's\nsexual relationship in BSG ended well except for Baltar and Six's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the end everyone is dead. But for other good relationships:\nAdama/Roslin\nAthena/Helo\nSaul/Ellen Tigh - troubled, but ultimately happy, an interesting contrast\nto Silk/Hyacinth\n\nThere were some destructive (\"bad\") relationships, too. That happens.\nWolfe knows that. He just seems uninterested in portraying any good ones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be \"sex invariability\ncauses people to act treacherously or cruelly.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've confused Wolfe and BSG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We like what we like. I wouldn't spend 2 minutes watching \"Grey's Anatomy\"\nor similar dramas regardless of how interesting (to some) or realistic the\nrelationships are. Not my cup 'o tea. That's what the flashbacks in the\nfinale reminded me of. They certainly didn't move forward or explain\nanything in the current narrative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We agree - soap operas don't interest me, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[regarding the sexual scenes in BSG finale]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This reply is already too long, but don't forget Baltar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Did Baltar even have sex in the final episode? If not (and I'm thinking\nnot) it a first. Certainly, Baltar and Six's relationship was hardly less\nrealistic than Wolfe's and, in general, its purpose was titilation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Baltar starts out as very much as if Wolfe had written him. His\nrelationships are based solely on the sex that his money and fame can get\nhim. In the end he grows a lot through his relationship(s). He is a better\nman for them. Which Wolfean protagonist can say the same? Sev? Silk?\nLatro?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " J." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-24T21:51:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 10:10 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nEnamel: In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for\n\nall sorts of human reasons, and have all sorts of\n\nhuman reactions. In Wolfe people apparently have\n\nsex to show what bad people they are, and suffer for it later.\n\n\n\n\n\nWynn: That's ridiculous. Do you really intend to compare the\n\nwriting of BSG to Wolfe in favor of BSG?\n\n\n\n\n\nEnamel: Yup. In the case of male-female sexual relationships,\n\nBSG beats the pants off of Wolfe. The motivations of the\n\npeople involved and the effects the relationships have on\n\nthem in BSG are more interesting and realistic than what\n\nWolfe has shown.\n\n\n\n\nWolfe doesn't typically set his scenes in \"naturalistic\" settings so I think you are comparing things that don't map. \nTB: BSG is hardly naturalistic. Sci-fi (even the pulp sci-fi Wolfe uses for his own ends) is still about people, what happens to them, and how they deal with it.\n*** \n\nThis sort of evades the point. Of course these are fantastic settings. It is the characters themselves that are more ordinary, and have more ordinary motivations, than the Wolfean characters you're trying to compare them to. And the more \"ordinary\" characters that Wolfe writes about are generally in the short stories, which you for some reason are explicitly excluding from comparison.\n\nEven amongst the characters you do bring up, Latro for example at BEST provides no support for your main contention, and may show the exact opposite." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-25T16:22:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nBaltar starts out as very much as if Wolfe had written him.\nHis relationships are based solely on the sex that his money\nand fame can get him. In the end he grows a lot through\nhis relationship(s). He is a better man for them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find no support for this. If he grows, I don't see it occurring through \nhis sexual relationships. Possibly, he has (if he has) through other events \nand by managing to focus less on sex.\n\nOne of the advantages of Wolfe's character development over that in BSG is \nthat he is quite overt in portraying the limits of potential character \ndevelopment through mere sexual encounters. It's the difference between the \nperspective of a middle-aged and older man and a bunch of Hollywood \ntwenty-somethings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nWhich Wolfean protagonist can say the same? Sev? Silk? Latro?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Arguably all of them and more. Redemption through _love_ is a major common \ntheme of Wolfe's works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn:\nFor example, while the sexual relationship between\nthe characters in \"Counting Cats In Zanzibar\" is realistic,\nthe setting is bizarrely unconventional." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nShort stories should be left aside.\nThe sort of character-development-through-a-sexual-relationship\nI'm referring to takes more time than a typical short story has." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This makes no sense to me. The story arcs in the finale required far less \n\"character-development-through-a-sexual-relationship\" than just about any of \nWolfe's short stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn:\nBut your original statement that \"In Wolfe people apparently have sex to \nshow what bad people they are, >>and suffer for it later\" is simply not \nbased on...well, anything that I can see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\n[snip]\nThere were some destructive (\"bad\") relationships, too.\nThat happens. Wolfe knows that.\nHe just seems uninterested in portraying any good ones.\n[snip]\nSeverian/Jolenta - Sev as date-rapist" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once again, this *does* seem intended to show to show Sev in a bad light. As \nopposed to the neutral light (at worst) shown on Starbuck's and Roslin's \nseedy sexual adventures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nSilk/Hyacinth - Silk loves unworthy woman, kills self over it" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Errr...no. He kills himself when she *dies*. After she meets Silk, she only \nhas sex with other people out of loyalty to him--to protect or aid him. \nCompare this to Ellen Tigh who commits adultery as often as she can out of \nboredom or manipulative cruelty--she is from beginning to end a \nmanipulative, cruel person for whom sex is rarely anything but some kind of \npoison...including for Saul (as Adama attests early on)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nBaldanders/little boy - homosexual child molestation" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps this is going on. Perhaps not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nAble/Dsiri - romantic love points in the wrong direction, and he is less \nfor having it" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're just trying to stir things up right? You don't really intend to \ndefend this position, right? It is so off track, I can't imagine where to \nbegin in order to correct you. You should put a tag after this. \nPeople might think you really have no ability to appreciate what's going on \nin a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nThere are Doors - have sex and die" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In TAD sex is truly an existential event and it requires far more sexual \ndevelopment than the drunken encounters that so typically occur in BSG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nLatro - he may have sex, but can never really have a relationship" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When his love is killed, Latro mourns over her long after he has even \nremembered why he's mourning. Talk about your \ncharacter-development-through-sexual-relationship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nHorn/Seawrack - she's a giant prawn!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And yet sex with toasters doesn't bother you!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nSeverian/Dorcas - it's his grandmother!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Come, come. Now you really are just being argumentative.\n:-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn:\nYou are essentially ascribing to Wolfe the stated opinions of Incus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nSt. Paul. And I'm not ascribing them to Wolfe, just describing what I see \nin his work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that shows an appalling lack of sensitivity when reading Wolfe...or \nSt. Paul. That's just sad." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nSaid another way, Wolfe never seems to portray a\nhealthy, sexual relationship, one in which his characters\ngrow or benefit from each other. Not untroubled,\nnot happy-ever-after. Just healthy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Abel and Disiri?\nSilk and Hy were together almost alone for 20 years after they were married \nuntil she died. There's no evidence that she was anything but faithful after \nthey left the Mainframe. What's the unhealthy part?\nHorn has some problems with his oldest child, but his 20 year relationship \nwith Nettle seems to be one of devotion although they are neither perfect \npeople and even though *gasp* they began their sexual relationship is horny \nteenagers. And then he died...\nThen Horn's relationship with Seawrack is convoluted but *she* definitely \ngrows from it, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nIn the end everyone is dead. But for other good relationships:\nAdama/Roslin" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is actually very little sex in this relationship since Roslin is sick \nthrough most of it. If Wolfe did this, you would probably argue it proves \nwhat a prude he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nAthena/Helo" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a relationship engineered deliberately and deceitfully by the Cylons \nin order to get a baby out of Helo. Sharon is actually pre-programmed to \nhave her fall in love more easily. This relationship was one of those on my \nmind when I said that in BSG sex only occurs out of treachery or cruelty. \nGranted, things turn out sort-of-okay in the end, but this is accomplished \nby the BSG writers devoting surprisingly little time to either of these \ncharacters working through the obvious baggage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nSaul/Ellen Tigh - troubled, but ultimately happy, an interesting contrast \nto Silk/Hyacinth" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The contrast with Silk and Hy is unfavorable to Saul and Ellen.\nI understand why the BSG writers did this. They wanted them to be the \ntemplate for Zeus and Hera after they settle on Earth. But this hardly \nbuttresses your core argument.\nIt is impossible to say whether the Tigh's relationship ever ends up happy. \nSince they are Zeus and Hera, I'd say not. It's true that Ellen did not have \nan opportunity to do something evil during the finale. I presume she will \nwithin days after settling on Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn:\nIf I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be\n\"sex invariability causes people to act treacherously or cruelly.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've confused Wolfe and BSG." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I stand by my statement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn:\nWe like what we like. I wouldn't spend 2 minutes watching\n\"Grey's Anatomy\" or similar dramas regardless of how\ninteresting (to some) or realistic the relationships are.\nNot my cup 'o tea. That's what the flashbacks in the finale\nreminded me of. They certainly didn't move forward or\nexplain anything in the current narrative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:\nWe agree - soap operas don't interest me, either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, what are we arguing about here? Half (at least) of the BSG finale was \nsoap-opera.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2009-03-25T16:51:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0903241400x9842094j9581f07c827b0056@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 5:00 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Thomas Bitterman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 10:10 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Enamel: In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " But your original statement that \"In Wolfe people apparently have sex\nto show what bad people they are, and suffer for it later\" is simply not\nbased on...well, anything that I can see.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian/Jolenta - Sev as date-rapist\nSilk/Hyacinth - Silk loves unworthy woman, kills self over it\nBaldanders/little boy - homosexual child molestation\nSeverian/Dorcas - it's his grandmother!\nAble/Dsiri - romantic love points in the wrong direction, and he is less\nfor having it\nThere are Doors - have sex and die\nLatro - he may have sex, but can never really have a relationship\nHorn/Seawrack - she's a giant prawn!\n\nThere may be a pattern here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's not how I read Silk/Hyacinth, Severian/Dorcas, Able/Dsiri or There\nAre Doors (although to be honest I have no clue what was going on in that\none." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must admit I felt that way through large chunks of Long/Short Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk makes a Christlike action chasing after Hyacinth instead of going to\nthe lander," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk/Hyacinth is Hosea/Gomer retold. I think the desire to retell this\nstory outweighed any consideration of characterization." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Able's relationship with Dsiri is redeemed and transfigured by his gift\nof blood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thereby implying that this relationship needed to be redeemed and\ntransfigured. In a \"standard\" chivalric story the romantic/courtly love of\na woman transforms and refines the brutish warrior into the gentlemanly\nknight. Wolfe inverts this idea - his hero is in a base relationship with a\nbase creature. The only hope comes from a one-sided act of charity. This\nis not a complex relationship - it is Dsiri sleeping with Able to get\ncitizenship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The idea of a male priestly or godly figure sacrificing himself for a less\nworthy female figure may be misogynist in the sense that Wolfe is repeatedly\nchosing it to symbolize the relationship between Christ and humanity when\nother symbols are available," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very nearly my point. Wolfe always seems to choose to portray romantic\nrelationships that are unhealthy, destructive or otherwise just awful. He\nis capable of deep, interesting character development in so many other areas\nbut romantic entanglements leave his characters flat.\n\nEnamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0903251002k4759ac07qd4725cdcc6d2f94b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-25T17:02:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Thomas Bitterman wrote:\nOn Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 5:00 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Thomas Bitterman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 10:10 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Enamel: In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " But your original statement that \"In Wolfe people apparently have sex\nto show what bad people they are, and suffer for it later\" is simply not\nbased on...well, anything that I can see.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian/Jolenta - Sev as date-rapist\nSilk/Hyacinth - Silk loves unworthy woman, kills self over it\nBaldanders/little boy - homosexual child molestation\nSeverian/Dorcas - it's his grandmother!\nAble/Dsiri - romantic love points in the wrong direction, and he is less\nfor having it\nThere are Doors - have sex and die\nLatro - he may have sex, but can never really have a relationship\nHorn/Seawrack - she's a giant prawn!\n\nThere may be a pattern here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's not how I read Silk/Hyacinth, Severian/Dorcas, Able/Dsiri or There\nAre Doors (although to be honest I have no clue what was going on in that\none." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I must admit I felt that way through large chunks of Long/Short Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Silk makes a Christlike action chasing after Hyacinth instead of going\nto the lander," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk/Hyacinth is Hosea/Gomer retold. I think the desire to retell this\nstory outweighed any consideration of characterization." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " and Able's relationship with Dsiri is redeemed and transfigured by his\ngift of blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thereby implying that this relationship needed to be redeemed and\ntransfigured. In a \"standard\" chivalric story the romantic/courtly love of\na woman transforms and refines the brutish warrior into the gentlemanly\nknight. Wolfe inverts this idea - his hero is in a base relationship with a\nbase creature. The only hope comes from a one-sided act of charity. This\nis not a complex relationship - it is Dsiri sleeping with Able to get\ncitizenship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Wolfe is a Christian, so I think he thinks that most human things need\nto be redeemed and transfigured. I don't think Wolfe inverts the idea at\nall--Able's love for Dsiri *does *refine him into a better knight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The idea of a male priestly or godly figure sacrificing himself for a\nless worthy female figure may be misogynist in the sense that Wolfe is\nrepeatedly chosing it to symbolize the relationship between Christ and\nhumanity when other symbols are available," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Very nearly my point. Wolfe always seems to choose to portray romantic\nrelationships that are unhealthy, destructive or otherwise just awful. He\nis capable of deep, interesting character development in so many other areas\nbut romantic entanglements leave his characters flat.\n\nEnamel\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2009-03-25T22:22:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Chris P wrote:\n\n\nOn Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 10:10 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n Enamel: In BSG people have (and don't have) sex for\nall sorts of human reasons, and have all sorts of\nhuman reactions. In Wolfe people apparently have\nsex to show what bad people they are, and suffer for it later.\n\n\n Wynn: That's ridiculous. Do you really intend to compare the\nwriting of BSG to Wolfe in favor of BSG?\n\n\n Enamel: Yup. In the case of male-female sexual relationships,\nBSG beats the pants off of Wolfe. The motivations of the\npeople involved and the effects the relationships have on\nthem in BSG are more interesting and realistic than what\nWolfe has shown.\n\n\nWolfe doesn't typically set his scenes in \"naturalistic\" settings so I\nthink you are comparing things that don't map.\n\n\nTB: BSG is hardly naturalistic. Sci-fi (even the pulp sci-fi Wolfe uses\nfor his own ends) is still about people, what happens to them, and how they\ndeal with it.\n***\n\nThis sort of evades the point. Of course these are fantastic settings. It\nis the characters themselves that are more ordinary, and have more ordinary\nmotivations, than the Wolfean characters you're trying to compare them to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean by \"ordinary motivations\". Both universes around\nthe usual needs: eat, sleep, and not get killed by space robots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the more \"ordinary\" characters that Wolfe writes about are generally in\nthe short stories, which you for some reason are explicitly excluding from\ncomparison." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I excluded the short stories because I wanted to compare the way BSG has\nhandled relationships as they evolved over the course of a 4+ season show to\nthe way Wolfe does. The sort of depth I think the BSG writers gave some of\ntheir characters' romantic relationships takes time to develop. Time that\nshort stories don't generally have. So best to stick near an apples to\napples comparison.\n\nIf you want to compare say, a romantic relationship in one particular Wolfe\nshort story to, say, the Baltar-Six relationship solely as it is portrayed\nin the final episode, that's different." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even amongst the characters you do bring up, Latro for example at BEST\nprovides no support for your main contention, and may show the exact\nopposite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what my main point is taken as, but let me try to restate it\nwith less hyperbole (and in brief): Extramarital sex in Wolfe's longer\nworks is bad. The characters doing it are bad for doing it (and are often\nbad in other senses). They will pay for it at some point. The relationship\nitself will be poorly portrayed and unhealthy.\n\nMy reasoning:\n\nSome rules seem to apply to a lot of Wolfe's fiction:\n- Sex outside of marriage is a bad thing.\n- A character is bad insofar as they do bad things, and they will pay, or at\nleast not profit.\n- The reader is not supposed to empathise with characters who do bad things,\nin the context of the bad thing.\n\nThe following situations are common in a lot of Wolfe's fiction:\n- Most characters, while \"on-screen\", are single.\n- Some have sex/enter into romantic relationships, from time to time.\n\nPut the rules and the situations together, and you get:\n- Some characters act badly.\n- They will pay, or at least not profit. The plot will see to this.\n- The relationship must be written in such a way that the reader is not\ntempted to sympathise/empathise/relate to the characters.\n\nExceptions:\n- Sex that is condoned by society can be considered morally neutral (at\nbest). The society is stained by association, though.\n- Sex between people who are engaged and later get married is ok. IIRC,\nHorn fits into here.\n- Apheta. What was going on there, anyway?\n\nThe BSG writers did not start with the same rules and so were free to write\n(IMHO) deeper, more realistic romantic relationships.\n\nEnamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2009-03-27T18:05:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:22 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nEnamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Baltar starts out as very much as if Wolfe had written him.\nHis relationships are based solely on the sex that his money\nand fame can get him. In the end he grows a lot through\nhis relationship(s). He is a better man for them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find no support for this. If he grows, I don't see it occurring through\nhis sexual relationships. Possibly, he has (if he has) through other events\nand by managing to focus less on sex." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His attitude toward sex changes as his character changes. Why he changes\n(and if that change is growth) is a matter for interpretation, and would\nneed an entire thread to itself.\n\nOne of the advantages of Wolfe's character development over that in BSG is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that he is quite overt in portraying the limits of potential character\ndevelopment through mere sexual encounters. It's the difference between the\nperspective of a middle-aged and older man and a bunch of Hollywood\ntwenty-somethings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this might be an important cause of the difference. I would replace\n\"advantages\" with \"differences\", though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Which Wolfean protagonist can say the same? Sev? Silk? Latro?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Arguably all of them and more. Redemption through _love_ is a major common\ntheme of Wolfe's works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What sort of love? Love of something higher, sure. Romantic love of\nsomeone else, not so much. Who is the great love of Severian's life,\nthrough whom he finds the strength to undergo his trials? Heck, when does\nSeverian ever just sit down with a girl and watch the sunrise while they\ntalk? Wolfe may not be a young man, but his heroes often are, and that's\nwhat young people do.\n\n Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Short stories should be left aside.\nThe sort of character-development-through-a-sexual-relationship\nI'm referring to takes more time than a typical short story has." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This makes no sense to me. The story arcs in the finale required far less\n\"character-development-through-a-sexual-relationship\" than just about any of\nWolfe's short stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am referring to character development through the series.\n\n wynn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But your original statement that \"In Wolfe people apparently have sex to\nshow what bad people they are, >>and suffer for it later\" is simply not\nbased on...well, anything that I can see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[snip]\nThere were some destructive (\"bad\") relationships, too.\nThat happens. Wolfe knows that.\nHe just seems uninterested in portraying any good ones.\n[snip]\nSeverian/Jolenta - Sev as date-rapist" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once again, this *does* seem intended to show to show Sev in a bad light.\nAs opposed to the neutral light (at worst) shown on Starbuck's and Roslin's\nseedy sexual adventures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have given my (non-seedy) interpretation of the Roslin episode in the\nfinale. But I am referring to the series as a whole - these characters\nengage in sex and have relationships as complicated, realistic people for\ncomplicated, realistic reasons and experience a variety of outcomes, some\ngood, some bad, some other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Silk/Hyacinth - Silk loves unworthy woman, kills self over it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Errr...no. He kills himself when she *dies*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I stand corrected. Not a real growth experience, still." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After she meets Silk, she only has sex with other people out of loyalty to\nhim--to protect or aid him. Compare this to Ellen Tigh who commits adultery\nas often as she can out of boredom or manipulative cruelty--she is from\nbeginning to end a manipulative, cruel person for whom sex is rarely\nanything but some kind of poison...including for Saul (as Adama attests\nearly on)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Hyacinth/Ellen analogy is closer than that - Ellen has sex with Cavil on\nNew Caprica in order to try and save Saul.\n\n Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Able/Dsiri - romantic love points in the wrong direction, and he is less\nfor having it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're just trying to stir things up right? You don't really intend to\ndefend this position, right? It is so off track, I can't imagine where to\nbegin in order to correct you. You should put a tag after this.\nPeople might think you really have no ability to appreciate what's going on\nin a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They may think that already. In any case, my (current) theory in short:\nAble is a 14-year-old in an 18-year-old's body. He's horny as hell and\nstarts getting it regularly from a hot older chick (who has magical\nenchantment powers to boot). He ends up becoming her champion, having\nadventures and slaying dragons and all the good stuff that happens in tales\nof chivalry. In the end, though, it was all a sham. She is an\nonotologically inferior being and he would have been better off skipping the\nwhole thing and loving The Most High directly.\n\n Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are Doors - have sex and die" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In TAD sex is truly an existential event and it requires far more sexual\ndevelopment than the drunken encounters that so typically occur in BSG." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By sexual development do you mean being dragged into the back of a parade\nfloat?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Latro - he may have sex, but can never really have a relationship" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When his love is killed, Latro mourns over her long after he has even\nremembered why he's mourning. Talk about your\ncharacter-development-through-sexual-relationship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not knowing why one is mourning is not character development. It's just\nweird. It's not even clear whether one can mourn for no reason. One could\nbe depressed, but to mourn would seem to imply mourning something or\nsomeone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Horn/Seawrack - she's a giant prawn!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And yet sex with toasters doesn't bother you!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No one has sex with toasters. The skinjobs are arguably human - there is\nevidence of interbreeding with humans. They bear a lot of resemblence to\nJonas.\n\n wynn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You are essentially ascribing to Wolfe the stated opinions of Incus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "St. Paul. And I'm not ascribing them to Wolfe, just describing what I see\nin his work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that shows an appalling lack of sensitivity when reading Wolfe...or\nSt. Paul. That's just sad." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If interpreting St. Paul as anti-sex is insensitive, at least I'm in good\n(and extensive) company. St. Augustine is in the lineup next if you want to\npitch around Paul.\n\n Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Said another way, Wolfe never seems to portray a\nhealthy, sexual relationship, one in which his characters\ngrow or benefit from each other. Not untroubled,\nnot happy-ever-after. Just healthy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abel and Disiri?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk and Hy were together almost alone for 20 years after they were married\nuntil she died. There's no evidence that she was anything but faithful after\nthey left the Mainframe. What's the unhealthy part?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no evidence of _anything_ for that 20 years that I can recall.\nSaying \"they had a good relationship\" and actually showing it are two\ndifferent things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Horn has some problems with his oldest child, but his 20 year relationship\nwith Nettle seems to be one of devotion although they are neither perfect\npeople and even though *gasp* they began their sexual relationship is horny\nteenagers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I though Horn and his son was a well-drawn relationship. They met each\nother face-to-face, both got to talk a lot and do some exposition, both got\nsome action in, they turn out to be more-or-less-equals (Horn is a father on\nGreen last I remember), they each come to conclusions about the other\nreflective of their characters and some shared experience. Compare to\nHorn's wife. On Short Sun she gets very few lines. Horn writes some\ntouching letters to her, says he misses her, but it's a monologue. The\nhorny teenagers part was the best part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And then he died..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did he die? I don't know what was going on their, and I don't think anybody\nelse (except maybe Wolfe) really does, either. See recent posts on this\nlist.\n\nEnamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the end everyone is dead. But for other good relationships:\nAdama/Roslin" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is actually very little sex in this relationship since Roslin is sick\nthrough most of it. If Wolfe did this, you would probably argue it proves\nwhat a prude he is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Wolfe did this, we wouldn't be having this conversation.\n\n Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Athena/Helo" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a relationship engineered deliberately and deceitfully by the\nCylons in order to get a baby out of Helo. Sharon is actually pre-programmed\nto have her fall in love more easily. This relationship was one of those on\nmy mind when I said that in BSG sex only occurs out of treachery or cruelty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Only\" is too strong a word. The Cylons (especially at the beginning) are\nthe bad guys. Of course they use sex as a weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Granted, things turn out sort-of-okay in the end, but this is accomplished\nby the BSG writers devoting surprisingly little time to either of these\ncharacters working through the obvious baggage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The whole thing struck me as very Wolfe-like. She acted like she loved him\nfor so long that in the end she did.\n\n Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Saul/Ellen Tigh - troubled, but ultimately happy, an interesting contrast\nto Silk/Hyacinth" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The contrast with Silk and Hy is unfavorable to Saul and Ellen.\nI understand why the BSG writers did this. They wanted them to be the\ntemplate for Zeus and Hera after they settle on Earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would think Hera would be the template for Hera." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But this hardly buttresses your core argument.\nIt is impossible to say whether the Tigh's relationship ever ends up happy.\nSince they are Zeus and Hera, I'd say not. It's true that Ellen did not have\nan opportunity to do something evil during the finale. I presume she will\nwithin days after settling on Earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was said in the series \"All Ellen ever wanted was to be with Saul\". If\none accepts this, then huge swathes of her bad behavior gain meaning as a\ncry for him to pay attention to her instead of the bottle and the ship. Now\nthat they only have each other, maybe that is all over. But, again, open\nfor interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wynn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be\n\"sex invariability causes people to act treacherously or cruelly.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " You've confused Wolfe and BSG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I stand by my statement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Invariably\" is too strong. I cannot remember a time where Anders acted\ntreacherously or cruelly (to a fellow BSG fleet member) due to his\nrelationship with Starbuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wynn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We like what we like. I wouldn't spend 2 minutes watching\n\"Grey's Anatomy\" or similar dramas regardless of how\ninteresting (to some) or realistic the relationships are.\nNot my cup 'o tea. That's what the flashbacks in the finale\nreminded me of. They certainly didn't move forward or\nexplain anything in the current narrative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Enamel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We agree - soap operas don't interest me, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, what are we arguing about here? Half (at least) of the BSG finale was\nsoap-opera." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The series, as a whole, tackled so many of the same issues as Wolfe does -\nwhat does it mean to be a person? what is a good religion? is history just\na big cycle? - that the difference in the way relationships are portrayed\nreally struck me.\n\nUsually I read Wolfe so I can wonder \"If Latro keeps forgetting things, what\nhappens to his personal identity? How brave can he be if he can't really\nimagine any long-term effects of his actions?\".\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Enamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T19:56:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Enamel," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday 27 March 2009, you wrote:\nWhat sort of love? Love of some-\nthing higher, sure. Romantic love\nof someone else, not so much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think most readers would agree that often--not invariably, but much\nmore often than not--romantic love is the starting point from which\nWolfe's protagonists advance (as he would probably have it) to loving\nhigher things. In some cases, it seems to accelerate their spiritual\ndevelopment. In others, I'd argue that the romantic love begins it,\nand that the advancement to higher things might not have happened at\nall without the protagonist's having fallen in love.\n\n[on Sharon's relationship with Helo]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The whole thing struck me as very\nWolfe-like. She acted like she\nloved him for so long that in the\nend she did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I'd say that it's equally characteristic of Wolfe to make lesser\ngood things pave the way for similar but greater good things.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman\n(Nacre)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T20:24:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn: Redemption through _love_ is a major common theme of Wolfe's works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: What sort of love? Love of something higher, sure.\nRomantic love of someone else, not so much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Disiri? Lara Morgan? Nettle? Hyacinth?\nAlso, in a Wolfe novel, romantic love is an Earthly sacrament for the love\nof Something Higher. It's actually a far more developed view of love than\nthat presented in soap-operas like the arcs in the BSG finale.\n\nOops! I see Mark Millman explained this better than I could." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: Who is the great love of Severian's life, through whom he finds the\nstrength to undergo his trials? Heck, when does Severian ever just sit\ndown with a girl and watch the sunrise while they talk? Wolfe may not be a\nyoung man, but his heroes often are, and that's what young people do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Severian-the-narrator (as with the Narrator of the Short Sun) is not a\n\"person\" in the conventional sense. The Great Love of Severian of course is\nThecla, and they spend a lot of time in Thecla's cell (an interesting twist\non your sunrise scene). It is the genius of Wolfe that Thecla is also the\nnarrator of NS. It is also why NS might be impossible to \"dramatize\" on film\nor TV. It is also important to remember that we think of Severian as the\nProtagonist, but even more so, he is \"merely\" the Narrator. The story is not\nso much about him as the people he encounters -- Severian merely provides\nthe POV. This is to a greater or lesser extant the case of Wolfe's other\nfirst-person novels as well. So the question is not whether Sev experiences\n\"realistic\" romance and how he is changed by it, but regarding those who\nlove him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: [snip]But I am referring to the series as a whole - these\ncharacters engage in sex and have relationships as complicated, realistic\npeople for complicated, realistic reasons and experience a variety of\noutcomes, some good, some bad, some other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, nothing could be more complicated than a Wolfe romance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn: After she meets Silk, she only has sex with other people out of\nloyalty to him--to protect or aid him. Compare this to Ellen Tigh who\ncommits adultery as often as she can out of boredom or manipulative\ncruelty--she is from beginning to end a manipulative, cruel person for\nwhom sex is rarely anything but some kind of poison...including for Saul\n(as Adama attests early on)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: The Hyacinth/Ellen analogy is closer than that - Ellen has sex with\nCavil on New Caprica in order to try and save Saul." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that shows Ellen's growth through misery, but not through romance.\nWhen she is resurrected and returns to Galactica, it is almost immediately\nclear how little she has changed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn: You're just trying to stir things up right? You don't really intend\nto defend this position, right? It is so off track, I can't imagine where\nto begin in order to correct you. You should put a tag after\nthis. People might think you really have no ability to appreciate what's\ngoing on in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I apologize for the tone in this response. Looking back I think it was\nvery much uncalled-for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: They may think that already. In any case, my (current) theory in\nshort: Able is a 14-year-old in an 18-year-old's body. He's horny as hell\nand starts getting it regularly from a hot older chick (who has magical\nenchantment powers to boot)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, he doesn't \"get it\" from her, until the end of the novel when she\nis human. He hopes that he will, but in the meantime he sublimates his\nsexual worship of Disiri into something harder (denying himself of both an\nedged weapon and the advances of all non-Disiri women and the horny Fire\nAelf). Also, Able thinks of himself as a 14-year-old, but he has spent\nyears in Aelfrice as Disiri's playmate. He's been \"dialed back\" to the age\nand memory of when he was taken by the Moss Aelf between the time The Knight\nstarts and when he is \"grown\" by Disiri.\n\nHe ends up becoming her champion, having adventures and slaying dragons and\nall the good stuff that happens in tales of chivalry. In the end, though,\nit was all a sham. She is an onotologically inferior being and he would\nhave been better off skipping the whole thing and loving The Most High\ndirectly.\n\nNo, no, no. Wolfe's point is that Abel's method truly Loving Disiri --rather\nthan finding her available and appealing-- was a stand-in for loving the\nMost High God of which he stills knows almost nothing of at the end of\ndouble novel. It ultimately led him to Skye as a great hero. Wolfe's\nperspective certainly does jibe with a lot of things C.S. Lewis wrote and\nillustrated in 'The Last Battle', 'The Great Divorce', and 'The Four Loves'.\n\nBut once again, there are two sides to this romance. You cannot ignore\nDisiri's motivations in loving Able (which we find she does although she has\na strange way of showing it in her initial scene). Disiri loves Able\nbecause she recognizes that he is Higher than she. Her love is certainly\nproperly directed, right? To say that Able was wrong in loving Disiri is to\nsay that Christ was wrong in loving mankind. It's much more involved than\nyou are portraying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "enamel: There are Doors - have sex and die" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn: In TAD sex is truly an existential event and it requires far more\nsexual development than the drunken encounters that so typically occur in\nBSG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: By sexual development do you mean being dragged into the\nback of a parade float?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Green doesn't know what the woman in the parade float expected of him, nor\nthe implications of that agreement, and she doesn't know he is not aware of\nthat. It would have been a very existential moment for a man who actually\naccepted her offer in fact. In our world we have parades. In the Lara Morgan\nworld they do too, but they mean much more. We aren't told exactly what the\ntotal meaning is, but clearly a parade could mean a lot to some men in that\nworld. In the hospital, there is a scene where a man is begging a woman for\nsex. He wants their love to truly mean something and she feels that he's\nonly asking for the end of their relationship. It's really a fascinating\nexperiment on the concepts pushed by Robert Graves in The White Goddess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "enamel: Latro - he may have sex, but can never really have a relationship" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn: When his love is killed, Latro mourns over her long after he has\neven remembered why he's mourning. Talk about your\ncharacter-development-through-sexual-relationship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: Not knowing why one is mourning is not character development. It's\njust weird. It's not even clear whether one can mourn for no reason. One\ncould be depressed, but to mourn would seem to imply mourning something or\nsomeone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you are merely rejecting Wolfe's premise. That's fine. But you can't\nreject the premise and then ascribe some other meaning to his narrative.\nWolfe is arguing that we are more than our memories. That Love itself is\nmore than what we remember about it. That is hardly evidence of an\n\"unhealthy\" relationship, or as you stated here No Relationship At All." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "enamel: Horn/Seawrack - she's a giant prawn!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn: And yet sex with toasters doesn't bother you!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: No one has sex with toasters. The skinjobs are arguably\nhuman - there is evidence of interbreeding with humans.\nThey bear a lot of resemblence to Jonas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Granted. But the same is true for Seawrack. However, Gaelin doesn't see it\nthat way in the end, and he helped design the skinjobs. He says that the\nSharons are \"all the same because we made them all the same\". He laments\nthat after 2000 years he still can't remember that. There's a case to be\nmade that he is wrong, that the Sharons in particular *can be* something\nmore. But you can't deny the authority of his claim." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: If interpreting St. Paul as anti-sex is insensitive, at least I'm\nin good (and extensive) company. St. Augustine is in the lineup next if\nyou want to pitch around Paul." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I confess, that I feel genuine pity for those who have honestly approached\nPaul's writings without understanding them. However, I don't think they are\nin the majority of Paul's critics. I recommend to a re-reading of Paul, and\nAugustine too for that matter. Granted the starting point of Augustine's\nworldview on sex and marriage --founded as they are on Roman mores-- are\nunrelatable to modern Western/Christianized eyes; however, it was Augustine\nwho prayed, \"Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: Said another way, Wolfe never seems to portray a\nhealthy, sexual relationship, one in which his characters\ngrow or benefit from each other. Not untroubled," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "not happy-ever-after. Just healthy.\n\nAdama/Roslin" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is actually very little sex in this relationship since Roslin is\nsick through most of it. If Wolfe did this, you would probably argue\nit proves what a prude he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Wolfe did this, we wouldn't be having this conversation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Frankly, I found the consummation of Roslin and Adama's feelings to totally\nbleed-out anything interesting in them as characters. Roslin becomes totally\npassive and Adama turns into a wilting daisy. But, I repeat: This is not\nmuch of a sexual relationship.\n\nAthena/Helo" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn: This is a relationship engineered deliberately and deceitfully by\nthe Cylons in order to get a baby out of Helo. Sharon is actually\npre-programmed to have her fall in love more easily. This relationship was\none of those on my mind when I said that in BSG sex only occurs out of\ntreachery or cruelty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: \"Only\" is too strong a word. The Cylons (especially at the\nbeginning) are the bad guys. Of course they use sex as a weapon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! Then you admit at least that my assessment is not far off the point?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn: Granted, things turn out sort-of-okay in the end, but this is\naccomplished by the BSG writers devoting surprisingly little time to\neither of these characters working through the obvious baggage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: The whole thing struck me as very Wolfe-like. She acted like she\nloved him for so long that in the end she did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well if it is Wolfe-like, why are we having this conversation?\nFor all the problems I had with it, this is the most tried and\nresilient relationship in the series.\n\nSaul/Ellen Tigh:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: It was said in the series \"All Ellen ever wanted was to be with\nSaul\". If one accepts this, then huge swathes of her bad behavior gain\nmeaning as a cry for him to pay attention to her instead of the bottle and\nthe ship. Now that they only have each other, maybe that is all over.\nBut, again, open for interpretation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was during her time closely confined with Saul on Galactica that she had\naffairs with both Baltar and Zarek." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn: If I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be \"sex\ninvariability causes people to act treacherously or cruelly.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: \"Invariably\" is too strong. I cannot remember a time where Anders\nacted treacherously or cruelly (to a fellow BSG fleet member) due to his\nrelationship with Starbuck." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose \"invariably\" is too strong. But every BSG sexual relationship \n(with the exception of Roslin/Adama which is barely a sexual relationship at \nall) *involves* treachery or cruelty. So comparing it with Wolfe and \nsaying BSG portrays is at ease portraying \"healthy\" sexual relationships and \nWolfe only uses it to show people as bad, just doesn't wash at any level.\n\nAnders is a chronic victim in his relationship with Starbuck. Starbuck's two \nother long-term relationships involve almost cheating with the guy's brother \nand daily rape by a cylon in a pseudo-marriage relationship. She takes \nAnders on as a rebound from Apollo. She openly carries a torch for Apollo \nuntil she dies while finding Earth. It is only the re-constructed Starbuck \nthat begrudgingly begins to accept Anders as more than a foil for Apollo. \nEven then, their relationship never rises beyond good friends." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn: Well, what are we arguing about here? Half (at least) of the BSG\nfinale was soap-opera." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: The series, as a whole, tackled so many of the same issues as Wolfe\ndoes - what does it mean to be a person? what is a good religion? is\nhistory just a big cycle? - that the difference in the way relationships\nare portrayed really struck me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I'll buy that BSG tackles many of the same themes as Wolfe. But BSG \ndid not tackle these themes with the consistency and plotting we expect from \nWolfe. The romance arcs in the finale (especially) IMO were the opposite of \na reason to recommend the series. The episodes that focused on the romances \nin general (the Boomer/Athena relationships were a glaring exception) tended \nto make me use the fast-forward button on my DDR (I'm thinking of Starbuck \nand Roslin/Adama right now).\n\nBut this is beside the point. To look at Able and Disiri cuddling down in\nAelfrice at the end of The Wizard Knight (as one example) or the whole of\nWolfe's writing and say that \" In Wolfe, people apparently have sex to show\nwhat bad people they are, and suffer for it later,\" is just totally off the \nboard.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7DCF69FC62E2478C98EA24CE5C23DA80@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T20:29:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, the following quotation is Enamel's although it looks like it is \nmine:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He ends up becoming her champion, having adventures and slaying dragons\nand all the good stuff that happens in tales of chivalry. In the end, \nthough,\nit was all a sham. She is an onotologically inferior being and he would\nhave been better off skipping the whole thing and loving The Most High\ndirectly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--------------------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nSent: Friday, March 27, 2009 3:24 PM\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe\nwynn: Redemption through _love_ is a major common theme of Wolfe's works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: What sort of love? Love of something higher, sure.\nRomantic love of someone else, not so much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Disiri? Lara Morgan? Nettle? Hyacinth?\nAlso, in a Wolfe novel, romantic love is an Earthly sacrament for the love\nof Something Higher. It's actually a far more developed view of love than\nthat presented in soap-operas like the arcs in the BSG finale.\n\nOops! I see Mark Millman explained this better than I could." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: Who is the great love of Severian's life, through whom he finds \nthe\nstrength to undergo his trials? Heck, when does Severian ever just sit\ndown with a girl and watch the sunrise while they talk? Wolfe may not be \na\nyoung man, but his heroes often are, and that's what young people do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Severian-the-narrator (as with the Narrator of the Short Sun) is not \na\n\"person\" in the conventional sense. The Great Love of Severian of course \nis\nThecla, and they spend a lot of time in Thecla's cell (an interesting \ntwist\non your sunrise scene). It is the genius of Wolfe that Thecla is also the\nnarrator of NS. It is also why NS might be impossible to \"dramatize\" on \nfilm\nor TV. It is also important to remember that we think of Severian as the\nProtagonist, but even more so, he is \"merely\" the Narrator. The story is \nnot\nso much about him as the people he encounters -- Severian merely provides\nthe POV. This is to a greater or lesser extant the case of Wolfe's other\nfirst-person novels as well. So the question is not whether Sev \nexperiences\n\"realistic\" romance and how he is changed by it, but regarding those who\nlove him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: [snip]But I am referring to the series as a whole - these\ncharacters engage in sex and have relationships as complicated, realistic\npeople for complicated, realistic reasons and experience a variety of\noutcomes, some good, some bad, some other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, nothing could be more complicated than a Wolfe romance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "wynn: After she meets Silk, she only has sex with other people out of\nloyalty to him--to protect or aid him. Compare this to Ellen Tigh who\ncommits adultery as often as she can out of boredom or manipulative\ncruelty--she is from beginning to end a manipulative, cruel person for\nwhom sex is rarely anything but some kind of poison...including for Saul\n(as Adama attests early on)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: The Hyacinth/Ellen analogy is closer than that - Ellen has sex \nwith\nCavil on New Caprica in order to try and save Saul." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that shows Ellen's growth through misery, but not through romance.\nWhen she is resurrected and returns to Galactica, it is almost immediately\nclear how little she has changed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "wynn: You're just trying to stir things up right? You don't really intend\nto defend this position, right? It is so off track, I can't imagine where\nto begin in order to correct you. You should put a tag after\nthis. People might think you really have no ability to appreciate what's\ngoing on in a Wolfe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I apologize for the tone in this response. Looking back I think it was\nvery much uncalled-for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: They may think that already. In any case, my (current) theory in\nshort: Able is a 14-year-old in an 18-year-old's body. He's horny as \nhell\nand starts getting it regularly from a hot older chick (who has magical\nenchantment powers to boot)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, he doesn't \"get it\" from her, until the end of the novel when \nshe\nis human. He hopes that he will, but in the meantime he sublimates his\nsexual worship of Disiri into something harder (denying himself of both an\nedged weapon and the advances of all non-Disiri women and the horny Fire\nAelf). Also, Able thinks of himself as a 14-year-old, but he has spent\nyears in Aelfrice as Disiri's playmate. He's been \"dialed back\" to the age\nand memory of when he was taken by the Moss Aelf between the time The \nKnight\nstarts and when he is \"grown\" by Disiri.\n\nHe ends up becoming her champion, having adventures and slaying dragons \nand\nall the good stuff that happens in tales of chivalry. In the end, though,\nit was all a sham. She is an onotologically inferior being and he would\nhave been better off skipping the whole thing and loving The Most High\ndirectly.\n\nNo, no, no. Wolfe's point is that Abel's method truly Loving \nDisiri --rather\nthan finding her available and appealing-- was a stand-in for loving the\nMost High God of which he stills knows almost nothing of at the end of\ndouble novel. It ultimately led him to Skye as a great hero. Wolfe's\nperspective certainly does jibe with a lot of things C.S. Lewis wrote and\nillustrated in 'The Last Battle', 'The Great Divorce', and 'The Four \nLoves'.\n\nBut once again, there are two sides to this romance. You cannot ignore\nDisiri's motivations in loving Able (which we find she does although she \nhas\na strange way of showing it in her initial scene). Disiri loves Able\nbecause she recognizes that he is Higher than she. Her love is certainly\nproperly directed, right? To say that Able was wrong in loving Disiri is \nto\nsay that Christ was wrong in loving mankind. It's much more involved than\nyou are portraying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "enamel: There are Doors - have sex and die" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "wynn: In TAD sex is truly an existential event and it requires far more\nsexual development than the drunken encounters that so typically occur in\nBSG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: By sexual development do you mean being dragged into the\nback of a parade float?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Green doesn't know what the woman in the parade float expected of him, nor\nthe implications of that agreement, and she doesn't know he is not aware \nof\nthat. It would have been a very existential moment for a man who actually\naccepted her offer in fact. In our world we have parades. In the Lara \nMorgan\nworld they do too, but they mean much more. We aren't told exactly what \nthe\ntotal meaning is, but clearly a parade could mean a lot to some men in \nthat\nworld. In the hospital, there is a scene where a man is begging a woman \nfor\nsex. He wants their love to truly mean something and she feels that he's\nonly asking for the end of their relationship. It's really a fascinating\nexperiment on the concepts pushed by Robert Graves in The White Goddess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "enamel: Latro - he may have sex, but can never really have a \nrelationship" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "wynn: When his love is killed, Latro mourns over her long after he has\neven remembered why he's mourning. Talk about your\ncharacter-development-through-sexual-relationship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: Not knowing why one is mourning is not character development. \nIt's\njust weird. It's not even clear whether one can mourn for no reason. One\ncould be depressed, but to mourn would seem to imply mourning something or\nsomeone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, you are merely rejecting Wolfe's premise. That's fine. But you can't\nreject the premise and then ascribe some other meaning to his narrative.\nWolfe is arguing that we are more than our memories. That Love itself is\nmore than what we remember about it. That is hardly evidence of an\n\"unhealthy\" relationship, or as you stated here No Relationship At All." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "enamel: Horn/Seawrack - she's a giant prawn!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "wynn: And yet sex with toasters doesn't bother you!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: No one has sex with toasters. The skinjobs are arguably\nhuman - there is evidence of interbreeding with humans.\nThey bear a lot of resemblence to Jonas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Granted. But the same is true for Seawrack. However, Gaelin doesn't see it\nthat way in the end, and he helped design the skinjobs. He says that the\nSharons are \"all the same because we made them all the same\". He laments\nthat after 2000 years he still can't remember that. There's a case to be\nmade that he is wrong, that the Sharons in particular *can be* something\nmore. But you can't deny the authority of his claim." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: If interpreting St. Paul as anti-sex is insensitive, at least I'm\nin good (and extensive) company. St. Augustine is in the lineup next if\nyou want to pitch around Paul." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I confess, that I feel genuine pity for those who have honestly approached\nPaul's writings without understanding them. However, I don't think they \nare\nin the majority of Paul's critics. I recommend to a re-reading of Paul, \nand\nAugustine too for that matter. Granted the starting point of Augustine's\nworldview on sex and marriage --founded as they are on Roman mores-- are\nunrelatable to modern Western/Christianized eyes; however, it was \nAugustine\nwho prayed, \"Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: Said another way, Wolfe never seems to portray a\nhealthy, sexual relationship, one in which his characters\ngrow or benefit from each other. Not untroubled,\nnot happy-ever-after. Just healthy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adama/Roslin\nThere is actually very little sex in this relationship since Roslin is\nsick through most of it. If Wolfe did this, you would probably argue\nit proves what a prude he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Wolfe did this, we wouldn't be having this conversation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Frankly, I found the consummation of Roslin and Adama's feelings to \ntotally\nbleed-out anything interesting in them as characters. Roslin becomes \ntotally\npassive and Adama turns into a wilting daisy. But, I repeat: This is not\nmuch of a sexual relationship.\n\nAthena/Helo\nwynn: This is a relationship engineered deliberately and deceitfully by\nthe Cylons in order to get a baby out of Helo. Sharon is actually\npre-programmed to have her fall in love more easily. This relationship \nwas\none of those on my mind when I said that in BSG sex only occurs out of\ntreachery or cruelty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: \"Only\" is too strong a word. The Cylons (especially at the\nbeginning) are the bad guys. Of course they use sex as a weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah! Then you admit at least that my assessment is not far off the point?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "wynn: Granted, things turn out sort-of-okay in the end, but this is\naccomplished by the BSG writers devoting surprisingly little time to\neither of these characters working through the obvious baggage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: The whole thing struck me as very Wolfe-like. She acted like she\nloved him for so long that in the end she did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well if it is Wolfe-like, why are we having this conversation?\nFor all the problems I had with it, this is the most tried and\nresilient relationship in the series.\n\nSaul/Ellen Tigh:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: It was said in the series \"All Ellen ever wanted was to be with\nSaul\". If one accepts this, then huge swathes of her bad behavior gain\nmeaning as a cry for him to pay attention to her instead of the bottle and\nthe ship. Now that they only have each other, maybe that is all over.\nBut, again, open for interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was during her time closely confined with Saul on Galactica that she \nhad\naffairs with both Baltar and Zarek." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "wynn: If I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be \"sex\ninvariability causes people to act treacherously or cruelly.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: \"Invariably\" is too strong. I cannot remember a time where Anders\nacted treacherously or cruelly (to a fellow BSG fleet member) due to his\nrelationship with Starbuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose \"invariably\" is too strong. But every BSG sexual relationship \n(with the exception of Roslin/Adama which is barely a sexual relationship \nat all) *involves* treachery or cruelty. So comparing it with Wolfe and \nsaying BSG portrays is at ease portraying \"healthy\" sexual relationships \nand Wolfe only uses it to show people as bad, just doesn't wash at any \nlevel.\n\nAnders is a chronic victim in his relationship with Starbuck. Starbuck's \ntwo other long-term relationships involve almost cheating with the guy's \nbrother and daily rape by a cylon in a pseudo-marriage relationship. She \ntakes Anders on as a rebound from Apollo. She openly carries a torch for \nApollo until she dies while finding Earth. It is only the re-constructed \nStarbuck that begrudgingly begins to accept Anders as more than a foil for \nApollo. Even then, their relationship never rises beyond good friends." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "wynn: Well, what are we arguing about here? Half (at least) of the BSG\nfinale was soap-opera." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: The series, as a whole, tackled so many of the same issues as \nWolfe\ndoes - what does it mean to be a person? what is a good religion? is\nhistory just a big cycle? - that the difference in the way relationships\nare portrayed really struck me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, I'll buy that BSG tackles many of the same themes as Wolfe. But BSG \ndid not tackle these themes with the consistency and plotting we expect \nfrom Wolfe. The romance arcs in the finale (especially) IMO were the \nopposite of a reason to recommend the series. The episodes that focused on \nthe romances in general (the Boomer/Athena relationships were a glaring \nexception) tended to make me use the fast-forward button on my DDR (I'm \nthinking of Starbuck and Roslin/Adama right now).\n\nBut this is beside the point. To look at Able and Disiri cuddling down in\nAelfrice at the end of The Wizard Knight (as one example) or the whole of\nWolfe's writing and say that \" In Wolfe, people apparently have sex to \nshow\nwhat bad people they are, and suffer for it later,\" is just totally off \nthe board.\n\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-27T23:28:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Wynn,\n\nThank you for your very kind comment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday 27 March 2009, you wrote:\nNo, no, no. Wolfe's point is that\nAbel's method truly Loving Disiri --\nrather than finding her available\nand appealing-- was a stand-in for\nloving the Most High God of which\nhe stills knows almost nothing of\nat the end of double novel. It ulti-\nmately led him to Skye as a great\nhero. “Wolfe's perspective certainly\ndoes jibe with a lot of things C.S.\nLewis wrote and illustrated in 'The\nLast Battle', 'The Great Divorce',\nand 'The Four Loves'.\n\nBut once again, there are two sides\nto this romance. You cannot ignore\nDisiri's motivations in loving Able\n(which we find she does although\nshe has a strange way of showing\nit in her initial scene). ?Disiri loves\nAble because she recognizes that\nhe is Higher than she. Her love is\ncertainly properly directed, right”\nTo say that Able was wrong in loving\nDisiri is to say that Christ was wrong\nin loving mankind. ?It's much more\ninvolved than you are portraying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, exactly. This is a case in which both of the romantic partners\nexperience spiritual growth through the relationship--Disiri in\nparticular in a very literalized way. This is very well said.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2009-04-04T00:04:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) BSG Spoiler vs Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 4:24 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nwynn: Redemption through _love_ is a major common theme of Wolfe's works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " enamel: What sort of love? Love of something higher, sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Romantic love of someone else, not so much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Disiri? Lara Morgan? Nettle? Hyacinth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dsiri and Lara are both goddesses from another dimension, and fall in love\nwith someone of a higher category. Their boyfriends are facing their love\nthe wrong way - they should be loving up. Nettle and Hyacinth are\nmore-or-less equals, and have the vast majority of their relationships off\nscreen. None of them are protagonists, or get a lot of internal\ndevelopment.\n\nAlso, in a Wolfe novel, romantic love is an Earthly sacrament for the love" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of Something Higher. It's actually a far more developed view of love than\nthat presented in soap-operas like the arcs in the BSG finale." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Three words: mating with giants.\n\nOops! I see Mark Millman explained this better than I could." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " enamel: Who is the great love of Severian's life, through whom he finds\nthe\nstrength to undergo his trials? Heck, when does Severian ever just sit\ndown with a girl and watch the sunrise while they talk? Wolfe may not be\na\nyoung man, but his heroes often are, and that's what young people do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Severian-the-narrator (as with the Narrator of the Short Sun) is not\na\n\"person\" in the conventional sense. The Great Love of Severian of course is\nThecla, and they spend a lot of time in Thecla's cell (an interesting twist\non your sunrise scene). It is the genius of Wolfe that Thecla is also the\nnarrator of NS. It is also why NS might be impossible to \"dramatize\" on\nfilm\nor TV. It is also important to remember that we think of Severian as the\nProtagonist, but even more so, he is \"merely\" the Narrator. The story is\nnot\nso much about him as the people he encounters -- Severian merely provides\nthe POV. This is to a greater or lesser extant the case of Wolfe's other\nfirst-person novels as well. So the question is not whether Sev experiences\n\"realistic\" romance and how he is changed by it, but regarding those who\nlove him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that Severian not somebody to look for as a model for romantic love.\n\nWell, nothing could be more complicated than a Wolfe romance.\n\n\nA Wolfe plot? :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: They may think that already. In any case, my (current) theory in\nshort: Able is a 14-year-old in an 18-year-old's body. He's horny as\nhell\nand starts getting it regularly from a hot older chick (who has magical\nenchantment powers to boot)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, he doesn't \"get it\" from her, until the end of the novel when she\nis human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In _The Knight_, he ends chapter 7 kissing her and begins chapter 8 lying on\nthe grass with no clothes on. I went with the obvious. It is a little less\nobvious a few paragraphs up, but is hinted at there, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He hopes that he will, but in the meantime he sublimates his\nsexual worship of Disiri into something harder (denying himself of both an\nedged weapon and the advances of all non-Disiri women and the horny Fire\nAelf). Also, Able thinks of himself as a 14-year-old, but he has spent\nyears in Aelfrice as Disiri's playmate. He's been \"dialed back\" to the age\nand memory of when he was taken by the Moss Aelf between the time The\nKnight\nstarts and when he is \"grown\" by Disiri." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not clear how much choice he has in the matter. Dsiri boasts near the\nend of chapter 7 that men she has kissed cannot leave until she sends them\naway. I think he is trying to remain faithful, and is being helped in this\nby that spell. He sure acts spell-bound." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, no, no. Wolfe's point is that Abel's method truly Loving Disiri\n--rather\nthan finding her available and appealing-- was a stand-in for loving the\nMost High God of which he stills knows almost nothing of at the end of\ndouble novel. It ultimately led him to Skye as a great hero. Wolfe's\nperspective certainly does jibe with a lot of things C.S. Lewis wrote and\nillustrated in 'The Last Battle', 'The Great Divorce', and 'The Four\nLoves'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it were a stand-in, why not have him love a human woman, or one better\nthan him?\n\nBut once again, there are two sides to this romance. You cannot ignore" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Disiri's motivations in loving Able (which we find she does although she\nhas\na strange way of showing it in her initial scene). Disiri loves Able\nbecause she recognizes that he is Higher than she. Her love is certainly\nproperly directed, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. And the ontological distance between her and Able renders her love for\nAble suspect at best (IMHO). Their differing levels in the heirarchy simply\npreclude the sort of relationship that people have with each other. That,\nand the whole being under a spell thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To say that Able was wrong in loving Disiri is to\nsay that Christ was wrong in loving mankind. It's much more involved than\nyou are portraying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "a) Christ is God and is categorically immune to charges of wrongdoing\nb) Christ came because the Father sent Him. Able is acting on his own.\n\n enamel: There are Doors - have sex and die" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " wynn: In TAD sex is truly an existential event and it requires far more\nsexual development than the drunken encounters that so typically occur in\nBSG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " enamel: By sexual development do you mean being dragged into the\nback of a parade float?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Green doesn't know what the woman in the parade float expected of him, nor\nthe implications of that agreement, and she doesn't know he is not aware of\nthat. It would have been a very existential moment for a man who actually\naccepted her offer in fact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but not one that _requires_ more development.\n\n enamel: Latro - he may have sex, but can never really have a relationship" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " wynn: When his love is killed, Latro mourns over her long after he has\neven remembered why he's mourning. Talk about your\ncharacter-development-through-sexual-relationship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " enamel: Not knowing why one is mourning is not character development." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " It's\njust weird. It's not even clear whether one can mourn for no reason. One\ncould be depressed, but to mourn would seem to imply mourning something or\nsomeone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, you are merely rejecting Wolfe's premise. That's fine. But you can't\nreject the premise and then ascribe some other meaning to his narrative." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Darn. I though the author was dead.\n\nWolfe is arguing that we are more than our memories. That Love itself is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "more than what we remember about it. That is hardly evidence of an\n\"unhealthy\" relationship, or as you stated here No Relationship At All." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is going to have to do a lot more arguing before the idea that you can\nlove somebody you don't know is very convincing.\n\nhuman - there is evidence of interbreeding with humans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They bear a lot of resemblence to Jonas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Granted. But the same is true for Seawrack. However, Gaelin doesn't see it\nthat way in the end, and he helped design the skinjobs. He says that the\nSharons are \"all the same because we made them all the same\". He laments\nthat after 2000 years he still can't remember that. There's a case to be\nmade that he is wrong, that the Sharons in particular *can be* something\nmore. But you can't deny the authority of his claim." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Galen (like Latro, a little) has little/no memory of 2000 years ago. If he\nrecovered that he might feel differently. His authority in this matter is\nnot much greater than any other normal person's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enamel: If interpreting St. Paul as anti-sex is insensitive, at least I'm\nin good (and extensive) company. St. Augustine is in the lineup next if\nyou want to pitch around Paul." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I confess, that I feel genuine pity for those who have honestly approached\nPaul's writings without understanding them. However, I don't think they are\nin the majority of Paul's critics. I recommend to a re-reading of Paul,\n and\nAugustine too for that matter. Granted the starting point of Augustine's\nworldview on sex and marriage --founded as they are on Roman mores-- are\nunrelatable to modern Western/Christianized eyes; however, it was Augustine\nwho prayed, \"Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given that Paul is not around to comment, how do you know who has genuinely\nunderstood his writings and who hasn't? He seems pretty clear. Augustine\nwas mocking/repenting of his former attitude." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Athena/Helo" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wynn: This is a relationship engineered deliberately and deceitfully by\nthe Cylons in order to get a baby out of Helo. Sharon is actually\npre-programmed to have her fall in love more easily. This relationship\nwas\none of those on my mind when I said that in BSG sex only occurs out of\ntreachery or cruelty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " enamel: \"Only\" is too strong a word. The Cylons (especially at the\nbeginning) are the bad guys. Of course they use sex as a weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah! Then you admit at least that my assessment is not far off the point?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Characters in BSG often act treacherously or cruelly, and sometimes\nthey act that way sexually. They also act other ways and act those ways\nsexually, also.\n\nSaul/Ellen Tigh:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "enamel: It was said in the series \"All Ellen ever wanted was to be with\nSaul\". If one accepts this, then huge swathes of her bad behavior gain\nmeaning as a cry for him to pay attention to her instead of the bottle and\nthe ship. Now that they only have each other, maybe that is all over.\nBut, again, open for interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was during her time closely confined with Saul on Galactica that she had\naffairs with both Baltar and Zarek." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She has two rivals - the ship/Adama, and the bottle. Saul is on the ship.\nIIRC, he has started drinking again, also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " wynn: If I were to ascribe a moral to sex in BSG it would be \"sex\ninvariability causes people to act treacherously or cruelly.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " enamel: \"Invariably\" is too strong. I cannot remember a time where Anders\nacted treacherously or cruelly (to a fellow BSG fleet member) due to his\nrelationship with Starbuck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose \"invariably\" is too strong. But every BSG sexual relationship\n(with the exception of Roslin/Adama which is barely a sexual relationship at\nall) *involves* treachery or cruelty. So comparing it with Wolfe and\nsaying BSG portrays is at ease portraying \"healthy\" sexual relationships and\nWolfe only uses it to show people as bad, just doesn't wash at any level." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "BSG has some healthy sexual relationships. They need not all be. Wolfe has\nso many bad ones that it takes some serious interpretive work to make any\nout as good. Even his throwaway relationships are bad - see near the end of\nchapter 9 in _The Knight_, where Able sees a man being cuckolded. That's\njust gratuitous.\n\nOkay, I'll buy that BSG tackles many of the same themes as Wolfe. But BSG" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "did not tackle these themes with the consistency and plotting we expect from\nWolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The romance arcs in the finale (especially) IMO were the opposite of a\nreason to recommend the series." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One could say the same for Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "J." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Enamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T11:50:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<6612.67.142.130.27.1237303208.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:20 AM, wrote:\nI guess I'm a moderate conservative or libertarian on the issue.\nI think the Second Amendment creates an individual right and\nthat that individual right clearly isn't meant to cover every\nconceivable form of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would argue that the intent was self-evidently for it to cover every\nconceivable type of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed, the most powerful weapons available in the eighteenth century were\nwarships, many of which were privately owned, as was much artillery in the\nsense of crew-served weapons.\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that this is what the founders thought, but I'd bet good\nmoney this is what Gene thinks.\n\nI've read through most of _Starwater Strains_ now, and my initial\nbelief has hardened: Gene's writings are definitely getting more\npolitical. In his older works like _Peace_ or _Book of the New Sun_\n(pre-90s), I didn't notice anything political, or at least,\ncontemporary. But in stuff from the last 2 decades? My suspicion has\nbecome certainty.\n\nThe stories in SS though are absolutely littered with\nlibertarian/conservative plots or asides. Some stories do nothing but\npush such ideas. \"Viewpoint\", for example, has a dystopian government\nwhich claims to own all money and which suppresses all weaponry, the\nbetter to oppress its citizenry; the protagonist, who is a heroic\nmoral wilderness survivalist fellow, spends most of the story trying\nto get a weapon. His great victory is to murder a government agent.\n\"Has Anyone Seen Junie Moon?\", when it's not trying to channel\nLafferty, ends with best wishes for a rebellion that will kill 'the\nbig important gangs with suits and guns' (the government). \"The Fat\nMagician\" ends with a rant about totalitarian governments. Another\nstory seems to implies that the government is responsible for taking\naway everything interesting and handing over power to machines and\nrules (\"Petting Zoo\"), while in \"The Dog of the Drops\", the government\nseems to engineer the extinction of dogs because dogs don't pay taxes\nand don't love the government but their owners. (I'm speculating a\nlittle with this one because the dialect is so hard to read.) And so\non.\n\nI haven't even finished, but it's all far more blatant than _An Evil Guest_." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T12:59:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is what the framers thought.\n\nIf you don't believe me you should read the Federalist and the\nanti-Federalist.\n\nOr just, you know, continue to believe what you prefer to believe.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:20 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I guess I'm a moderate conservative or libertarian on the issue.\nI think the Second Amendment creates an individual right and\nthat that individual right clearly isn't meant to cover every\nconceivable form of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I would argue that the intent was self-evidently for it to cover every\nconceivable type of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Indeed, the most powerful weapons available in the eighteenth century\nwere\nwarships, many of which were privately owned, as was much artillery in\nthe\nsense of crew-served weapons.\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that this is what the founders thought, but I'd bet good\nmoney this is what Gene thinks.\n\nI've read through most of _Starwater Strains_ now, and my initial\nbelief has hardened: Gene's writings are definitely getting more\npolitical. In his older works like _Peace_ or _Book of the New Sun_\n(pre-90s), I didn't notice anything political, or at least,\ncontemporary. But in stuff from the last 2 decades? My suspicion has\nbecome certainty.\n\nThe stories in SS though are absolutely littered with\nlibertarian/conservative plots or asides. Some stories do nothing but\npush such ideas. \"Viewpoint\", for example, has a dystopian government\nwhich claims to own all money and which suppresses all weaponry, the\nbetter to oppress its citizenry; the protagonist, who is a heroic\nmoral wilderness survivalist fellow, spends most of the story trying\nto get a weapon. His great victory is to murder a government agent.\n\"Has Anyone Seen Junie Moon?\", when it's not trying to channel\nLafferty, ends with best wishes for a rebellion that will kill 'the\nbig important gangs with suits and guns' (the government). \"The Fat\nMagician\" ends with a rant about totalitarian governments. Another\nstory seems to implies that the government is responsible for taking\naway everything interesting and handing over power to machines and\nrules (\"Petting Zoo\"), while in \"The Dog of the Drops\", the government\nseems to engineer the extinction of dogs because dogs don't pay taxes\nand don't love the government but their owners. (I'm speculating a\nlittle with this one because the dialect is so hard to read.) And so\non.\n\nI haven't even finished, but it's all far more blatant than _An Evil\nGuest_.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T13:38:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've read through most of _Starwater Strains_ now, and my initial\nbelief has hardened: Gene's writings are definitely getting more\npolitical. In his older works like _Peace_ or _Book of the New Sun_\n(pre-90s), I didn't notice anything political, or at least,\ncontemporary. But in stuff from the last 2 decades? My suspicion has\nbecome certainty.\n\nThe stories in SS though are absolutely littered with\nlibertarian/conservative plots or asides. Some stories do nothing but\npush such ideas. \"Viewpoint\", for example, has a dystopian government\nwhich claims to own all money and which suppresses all weaponry, the\nbetter to oppress its citizenry; the protagonist, who is a heroic\nmoral wilderness survivalist fellow, spends most of the story trying\nto get a weapon. His great victory is to murder a government agent.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<355365fd1177f7cc4689279824ff3fe2.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T13:49:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He has always been like this.\n\nHe's not much like Heinlein in a lot of things.\n\nBut the very basics, yes.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've read through most of _Starwater Strains_ now, and my initial\nbelief has hardened: Gene's writings are definitely getting more\npolitical. In his older works like _Peace_ or _Book of the New Sun_\n(pre-90s), I didn't notice anything political, or at least,\ncontemporary. But in stuff from the last 2 decades? My suspicion has\nbecome certainty.\n\nThe stories in SS though are absolutely littered with\nlibertarian/conservative plots or asides. Some stories do nothing but\npush such ideas. \"Viewpoint\", for example, has a dystopian government\nwhich claims to own all money and which suppresses all weaponry, the\nbetter to oppress its citizenry; the protagonist, who is a heroic\nmoral wilderness survivalist fellow, spends most of the story trying\nto get a weapon. His great victory is to murder a government agent.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2DF14B.6050302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T14:01:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure why this isn't enough:\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to defend themselves.\n\n\nAnd that's all I'm going to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt is what the framers thought.\n\nIf you don't believe me you should read the Federalist and the\nanti-Federalist.\n\nOr just, you know, continue to believe what you prefer to believe.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:20 AM, wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I guess I'm a moderate conservative or libertarian on the issue.\nI think the Second Amendment creates an individual right and\nthat that individual right clearly isn't meant to cover every\nconceivable form of weapon.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I would argue that the intent was self-evidently for it to cover every\nconceivable type of weapon.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Indeed, the most powerful weapons available in the eighteenth century\nwere\nwarships, many of which were privately owned, as was much artillery in\nthe\nsense of crew-served weapons.\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T14:04:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2DF14B.6050302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what this really has to do with Wolfe. (And I know I've had my\ndigressions too.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:01 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI'm not sure why this isn't enough:\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to defend\nthemselves.\n\n\nAnd that's all I'm going to say.\n\n\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is what the framers thought.\n\nIf you don't believe me you should read the Federalist and the\nanti-Federalist.\n\nOr just, you know, continue to believe what you prefer to believe.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:20 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " I guess I'm a moderate conservative or libertarian on the issue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I think the Second Amendment creates an individual right and\nthat that individual right clearly isn't meant to cover every\nconceivable form of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I would argue that the intent was self-evidently for it to cover every\nconceivable type of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Indeed, the most powerful weapons available in the eighteenth century\nwere\nwarships, many of which were privately owned, as was much artillery in\nthe\nsense of crew-served weapons.\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2DF274.8020201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T14:06:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I support the right of the Guild to fire its guns each year on \nCatherine's Day." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nI'm not sure what this really has to do with Wolfe. (And I know I've \nhad my digressions too.)\n\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:01 AM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n I'm not sure why this isn't enough:\n\n The intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to\n defend themselves.\n\n\n And that's all I'm going to say.\n\n\n\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n It is what the framers thought.\n\n If you don't believe me you should read the Federalist and the\n anti-Federalist.\n\n Or just, you know, continue to believe what you prefer to believe.\n\n .\n\n\n \n\n On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:20 AM, > wrote:\n \n\n I guess I'm a moderate conservative or\n libertarian on the issue.\n I think the Second Amendment creates an\n individual right and\n that that individual right clearly isn't meant\n to cover every\n conceivable form of weapon.\n \n\n I would argue that the intent was self-evidently\n for it to cover every\n conceivable type of weapon.\n \n\n Indeed, the most powerful weapons available in the\n eighteenth century\n were\n warships, many of which were privately owned, as was\n much artillery in\n the\n sense of crew-served weapons.\n\n The intent of the second amendment is to allow the\n citizenry to more\n readily defend themselves against the government, when\n this becomes\n necessary, as it inevitably does.\n \n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T14:10:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2DF14B.6050302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You could say more.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure why this isn't enough:\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to defend\nthemselves.\n\n\nAnd that's all I'm going to say.\n\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is what the framers thought.\n\nIf you don't believe me you should read the Federalist and the\nanti-Federalist.\n\nOr just, you know, continue to believe what you prefer to believe.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:20 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I guess I'm a moderate conservative or libertarian on the issue.\nI think the Second Amendment creates an individual right and\nthat that individual right clearly isn't meant to cover every\nconceivable form of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I would argue that the intent was self-evidently for it to cover\nevery\nconceivable type of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Indeed, the most powerful weapons available in the eighteenth century\nwere\nwarships, many of which were privately owned, as was much artillery in\nthe\nsense of crew-served weapons.\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<68143d65d117e05762ed44bf88a47c6b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T14:11:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're not?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what this really has to do with Wolfe. (And I know I've had\nmy\ndigressions too.)\n\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:01 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure why this isn't enough:\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to defend\nthemselves.\n\n\nAnd that's all I'm going to say.\n\n\n\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is what the framers thought.\n\nIf you don't believe me you should read the Federalist and the\nanti-Federalist.\n\nOr just, you know, continue to believe what you prefer to believe.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:20 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " I guess I'm a moderate conservative or libertarian on the issue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "I think the Second Amendment creates an individual right and\nthat that individual right clearly isn't meant to cover every\nconceivable form of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I would argue that the intent was self-evidently for it to cover\nevery\nconceivable type of weapon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Indeed, the most powerful weapons available in the eighteenth century\nwere\nwarships, many of which were privately owned, as was much artillery\nin\nthe\nsense of crew-served weapons.\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2DF567.8010809@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Sunanda", "address": "dhsunanda at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T14:19:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<68143d65d117e05762ed44bf88a47c6b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've read through most of _Starwater Strains_ now, and my \ninitialbelief has hardened:\nGene's writings are definitely getting more\npolitical. In his older works like _Peace_ or _Book of the New Sun_\n(pre-90s), I didn't notice anything political, or at least,\ncontemporary. But in stuff from the last 2 decades? My suspicion has\nbecome certainty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you read _Operation Ares_?\n\nPerhaps an outlier, but definitely political.\n\nSunanda" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2e53d4df3e1952044e7e7d0a56328c41.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-02T15:24:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2DF274.8020201@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "St Barbara pray for us.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I support the right of the Guild to fire its guns each year on\nCatherine's Day.\n\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what this really has to do with Wolfe. (And I know I've\nhad my digressions too.)\n\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:01 AM, David Stockhoff\n> wrote:\n\n I'm not sure why this isn't enough:\n\n The intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to\n defend themselves.\n\n\n And that's all I'm going to say.\n\n\n\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n It is what the framers thought.\n\n If you don't believe me you should read the Federalist and the\n anti-Federalist.\n\n Or just, you know, continue to believe what you prefer to\nbelieve.\n\n .\n\n\n\n\n On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:20 AM, > wrote:\n\n\n I guess I'm a moderate conservative or\n libertarian on the issue.\n I think the Second Amendment creates an\n individual right and\n that that individual right clearly isn't meant\n to cover every\n conceivable form of weapon.\n\n\n I would argue that the intent was self-evidently\n for it to cover every\n conceivable type of weapon.\n\n\n Indeed, the most powerful weapons available in the\n eighteenth century\n were\n warships, many of which were privately owned, as was\n much artillery in\n the\n sense of crew-served weapons.\n\n The intent of the second amendment is to allow the\n citizenry to more\n readily defend themselves against the government, when\n this becomes\n necessary, as it inevitably does.\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E04B6.8080306@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T15:24:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is an ingenious method to kill a zombie thread (\"Appearance of \nInire\"): reintroduce an old zombie thread that has already resurrected \nitself 3 times previously to flush it away. Presumably, the list has \nbuilt up enough antibodies to fight off \"The Politics of Gene Wolfe\" in \nshort order and then both zombie threads are gone. We shall call this \nthe Zombie Colonic.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 6:50 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:20 AM, wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I guess I'm a moderate conservative or libertarian on the issue.\nI think the Second Amendment creates an individual right and\nthat that individual right clearly isn't meant to cover every\nconceivable form of weapon.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I would argue that the intent was self-evidently for it to cover every\nconceivable type of weapon.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Indeed, the most powerful weapons available in the eighteenth century were\nwarships, many of which were privately owned, as was much artillery in the\nsense of crew-served weapons.\n\nThe intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that this is what the founders thought, but I'd bet good\nmoney this is what Gene thinks.\n\nI've read through most of _Starwater Strains_ now, and my initial\nbelief has hardened: Gene's writings are definitely getting more\npolitical. In his older works like _Peace_ or _Book of the New Sun_\n(pre-90s), I didn't notice anything political, or at least,\ncontemporary. But in stuff from the last 2 decades? My suspicion has\nbecome certainty.\n\nThe stories in SS though are absolutely littered with\nlibertarian/conservative plots or asides. Some stories do nothing but\npush such ideas. \"Viewpoint\", for example, has a dystopian government\nwhich claims to own all money and which suppresses all weaponry, the\nbetter to oppress its citizenry; the protagonist, who is a heroic\nmoral wilderness survivalist fellow, spends most of the story trying\nto get a weapon. His great victory is to murder a government agent.\n\"Has Anyone Seen Junie Moon?\", when it's not trying to channel\nLafferty, ends with best wishes for a rebellion that will kill 'the\nbig important gangs with suits and guns' (the government). \"The Fat\nMagician\" ends with a rant about totalitarian governments. Another\nstory seems to implies that the government is responsible for taking\naway everything interesting and handing over power to machines and\nrules (\"Petting Zoo\"), while in \"The Dog of the Drops\", the government\nseems to engineer the extinction of dogs because dogs don't pay taxes\nand don't love the government but their owners. (I'm speculating a\nlittle with this one because the dialect is so hard to read.) And so\non.\n\nI haven't even finished, but it's all far more blatant than _An Evil Guest_.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E1554.1000705@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T16:35:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2DF567.8010809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've read through most of _Starwater Strains_ now, and my \ninitialbelief has hardened:\nGene's writings are definitely getting more\npolitical. In his older works like _Peace_ or _Book of the New Sun_\n(pre-90s), I didn't notice anything political, or at least,\ncontemporary. But in stuff from the last 2 decades? My suspicion has\nbecome certainty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you read _Operation Ares_? Perhaps an outlier, but definitely \npolitical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not an outlier, I think. \"The Devil in a Forest\" is fine unflattering \ndeconstruction of Robin Hood as a hero who \"robs the rich to give to the \npoor\".\n\nFor the most part, however, the examples given from \"Starwater Strains\" \nare seeing what one expects to see. You don't have to be a \nconservative/libertarian to imagine a dystopian government (ex. George \nOrwell). You don't need to be a Tea Partyer to wish well a revolution \nthat will bring down the \"big important gangs with suits and guns\". That \nsounds like the communist/anarchist G-20 protesters in Toronto.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E1740.3060301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T16:43:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1554.1000705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly my thought. Dystopian government is an old SF theme. Depicting \nevil government agents says nothing about your beliefs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI've read through most of _Starwater Strains_ now, and my \ninitialbelief has hardened:\nGene's writings are definitely getting more\npolitical. In his older works like _Peace_ or _Book of the New Sun_\n(pre-90s), I didn't notice anything political, or at least,\ncontemporary. But in stuff from the last 2 decades? My suspicion has\nbecome certainty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have you read _Operation Ares_? Perhaps an outlier, but definitely \npolitical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not an outlier, I think. \"The Devil in a Forest\" is fine unflattering \ndeconstruction of Robin Hood as a hero who \"robs the rich to give to \nthe poor\".\n\nFor the most part, however, the examples given from \"Starwater \nStrains\" are seeing what one expects to see. You don't have to be a \nconservative/libertarian to imagine a dystopian government (ex. George \nOrwell). You don't need to be a Tea Partyer to wish well a revolution \nthat will bring down the \"big important gangs with suits and guns\". \nThat sounds like the communist/anarchist G-20 protesters in Toronto.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E1CA0.7050907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T17:06:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1740.3060301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And what would one say if Wolfe wrote a novel about a heroic CIA agent? \nOr a heroic FBI agent hunting the hippie minions of the Storm King? That \nhe's a big Nanny Statist?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 11:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nExactly my thought. Dystopian government is an old SF theme. Depicting \nevil government agents says nothing about your beliefs.\n\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I've read through most of _Starwater Strains_ now, and my \ninitialbelief has hardened:\nGene's writings are definitely getting more\npolitical. In his older works like _Peace_ or _Book of the New Sun_\n(pre-90s), I didn't notice anything political, or at least,\ncontemporary. But in stuff from the last 2 decades? My suspicion has\nbecome certainty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Have you read _Operation Ares_? Perhaps an outlier, but definitely \npolitical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not an outlier, I think. \"The Devil in a Forest\" is fine unflattering \ndeconstruction of Robin Hood as a hero who \"robs the rich to give to \nthe poor\".\n\nFor the most part, however, the examples given from \"Starwater \nStrains\" are seeing what one expects to see. You don't have to be a \nconservative/libertarian to imagine a dystopian government (ex. \nGeorge Orwell). You don't need to be a Tea Partyer to wish well a \nrevolution that will bring down the \"big important gangs with suits \nand guns\". That sounds like the communist/anarchist G-20 protesters \nin Toronto.\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T17:38:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1CA0.7050907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThere is a classic A.E. Van Vogt story called The Weapon Shop which addresses\nthis issue using that interpretation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weapon_Shop\nGreat pulp SF story. I loved it.\n \nAnd didn't Gene Wolfe mention Van Vogt in Fifth Head of Cerberus? I bet he has\nread that story.\n \nAnyway, the wording of the Second Amendment is- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State,\nthe right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTo me this wording suggests an interpretation counter to the standard\nLibertarian view which seems to focus on the word \"free\" and ignores the other\n26 words. Bearing arms would seem to be meant for the defense of the state not\nto attack the state or defend against it. A \"well regulated militia\" sounds like\na state organized function to me not some sort of individual defense against\nthe state or lawless brigands or wild animals. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E253D.1080903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T17:43:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or to defend the State state vs the Federal state, at most." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nThere is a classic A.E. Van Vogt story called The Weapon Shop which addresses\nthis issue using that interpretation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weapon_Shop\nGreat pulp SF story. I loved it.\n \nAnd didn't Gene Wolfe mention Van Vogt in Fifth Head of Cerberus? I bet he has\nread that story.\n \nAnyway, the wording of the Second Amendment is- \n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State,\nthe right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nTo me this wording suggests an interpretation counter to the standard\nLibertarian view which seems to focus on the word \"free\" and ignores the other\n26 words. Bearing arms would seem to be meant for the defense of the state not\nto attack the state or defend against it. A \"well regulated militia\" sounds like\na state organized function to me not some sort of individual defense against\nthe state or lawless brigands or wild animals. \t\t \t \t\t \n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E2721.5030208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T17:51:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, the wording of the Second Amendment is-\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State,\nthe right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me this wording suggests an interpretation counter to the standard\nLibertarian view which seems to focus on the word \"free\" and ignores the other\n26 words. Bearing arms would seem to be meant for the defense of the state not\nto attack the state or defend against it. A \"well regulated militia\" sounds like\na state organized function to me not some sort of individual defense against\nthe state or lawless brigands or wild animals. \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An illuminating reading. And since the amendment addresses \"the right of \nthe People\", we get a deeper understanding of this text:\n\n \"Congress shall make no law [snip] abridging [snip] the right of the\n people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a\n redress of grievances.\"\n\nObviously these Rights of the People refer merely to the rights of state \nlegislatures to assemble in session and for them to petition the Federal \ngovernment .\n\nu+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E29BD.2080808@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:02:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/2/2010 12:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAnyway, the wording of the Second Amendment is-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State,\nthe right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me this wording suggests an interpretation counter to the standard\nLibertarian view which seems to focus on the word \"free\" and ignores the other\n26 words. Bearing arms would seem to be meant for the defense of the state not\nto attack the state or defend against it. A \"well regulated militia\" sounds like\na state organized function to me not some sort of individual defense against\nthe state or lawless brigands or wild animals. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the time \"well regulated\" meant kept in proper working order, like a \nclock that kept accurate time and chimed at regular intervals. Militia \nreferred to the armed, able-bodied male populace rather than a \nparticular organization. Drills and deployment were arranged at the \nstate and local levels out of practicality." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:30:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whatever views we readers may hold regarding the 2nd amendment, it appears\nthat our author likes to arm his characters.\n\n1. Severian openly carries his sword on Urth. Dr Talos carries a concealed\none.\n2. Silk, the best man on the Whorl, uses many weapons.\n3. In the ancient world, Latro and his companions are armed.\n4. Guns frequently appear in Wolfe's contemporary American settings,\nlike *Castleview\n*and F*ree Live Free.*\n*\n*\n*Of course, weapons may just be used for dramatic effect. However, our\nauthor seems to believe that weapons can be used for good as well as evil.\nNo blanket condemnation of lethal force and lethal instruments.*\n*\n*\n*\n*\n*\n*\n*\n*\n*\\\\\n*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a classic A.E. Van Vogt story called The Weapon Shop which\naddresses\nthis issue using that interpretation.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weapon_Shop\nGreat pulp SF story. I loved it.\n\nAnd didn't Gene Wolfe mention Van Vogt in Fifth Head of Cerberus? I bet he\nhas\nread that story.\n\nAnyway, the wording of the Second Amendment is-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State,\nthe right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me this wording suggests an interpretation counter to the standard\nLibertarian view which seems to focus on the word \"free\" and ignores the\nother\n26 words. Bearing arms would seem to be meant for the defense of the state\nnot\nto attack the state or defend against it. A \"well regulated militia\" sounds\nlike\na state organized function to me not some sort of individual defense\nagainst\nthe state or lawless brigands or wild animals.\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9282d4cf6f8608baf948ff5d7cd4a935@imap.io.com>", "from": { "name": "adam at io.com", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:30:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E04B6.8080306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 10:24:38 -0500, James Wynn wrote:\nWe shall call this \nthe Zombie Colonic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "WORST. COCKTAIL. EVAR.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E33A4.6020909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T18:44:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely. Nor any blanket condemnation of city governments who try to \nkeep violent crime down by banning deadly weapons too small to use to \nany military effect even in the 18th century.\n\nBut definitely a depiction of the world as a rough, violent, chaotic \nplace few would want to live in without an armed guard, where the strong \nroutinely oppress the weak, without arms necessarily even appearing as a \nprimary means of achieving said oppression, aside from the uhlans on the \nhigh road and the electric whips of the armigers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Smith wrote:\nWhatever views we readers may hold regarding the 2nd amendment, it \nappears that our author likes to arm his characters.\n\n1. Severian openly carries his sword on Urth. Dr Talos carries a \nconcealed one.\n2. Silk, the best man on the Whorl, uses many weapons. \n3. In the ancient world, Latro and his companions are armed.\n4. Guns frequently appear in Wolfe's contemporary American settings, \nlike /Castleview /and F/ree Live Free./\n/\n/\n/Of course, weapons may just be used for dramatic effect. However, \nour author seems to believe that weapons can be used for good as well \nas evil. No blanket condemnation of lethal force and lethal \ninstruments./\n/\n/\n/\n/\n/\n/\n/\n/\n/\\\\\n/\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Lee Berman > wrote:\n\n\n\n >>> The intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry\n to more\n >>> readily defend themselves against the government, when this\n becomes\n >>> necessary, as it inevitably does.\n\n There is a classic A.E. Van Vogt story called The Weapon Shop\n which addresses\n this issue using that interpretation.\n http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weapon_Shop\n Great pulp SF story. I loved it.\n\n And didn't Gene Wolfe mention Van Vogt in Fifth Head of Cerberus?\n I bet he has\n read that story.\n\n Anyway, the wording of the Second Amendment is-\n\n >\"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a\n free State,\n >the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be\n infringed.\"\n\n To me this wording suggests an interpretation counter to the standard\n Libertarian view which seems to focus on the word \"free\" and\n ignores the other\n 26 words. Bearing arms would seem to be meant for the defense of\n the state not\n to attack the state or defend against it. A \"well regulated\n militia\" sounds like\n a state organized function to me not some sort of individual\n defense against\n the state or lawless brigands or wild animals.\n _________________________________________________________________\n Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from\n your inbox.\n http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T19:02:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Jack Smith wrote:\n4. ?Guns frequently appear in Wolfe's contemporary American settings, like\nCastleview and Free Live Free." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...not to mention very prominently in _The Sorcerer's House_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, weapons may just be used for dramatic effect. — However, our\nauthor seems to believe that weapons can be used for good as well as evil.\nNo blanket condemnation of lethal force and lethal instruments." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Weapons as such are morally neutral objects. It is their use that is\nmorally fraught. As the saying goes, \"Gods don't kill people;\nreligious fanatics kill people.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2010-07-02T19:09:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As the saying goes, \"Gods don't kill people;\nreligious fanatics kill people.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah beg to differ.\n\n-- Dave" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Jack Smith \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "4. Guns frequently appear in Wolfe's contemporary American settings,\nlike\nCastleview and Free Live Free." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...not to mention very prominently in _The Sorcerer's House_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, weapons may just be used for dramatic effect. However, our\nauthor seems to believe that weapons can be used for good as well as\nevil.\nNo blanket condemnation of lethal force and lethal instruments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Weapons as such are morally neutral objects. It is their use that is\nmorally fraught. As the saying goes, \"Gods don't kill people;\nreligious fanatics kill people.\"\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2E3BD3.7060009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-02T19:19:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought they were killed by Yesodis with energy blasters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Lebling wrote:\n\n As the saying goes, \"Gods don't kill people;\n religious fanatics kill people.\"\n\n\nThe inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah beg to differ.\n\n-- Dave\n\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\n On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Jack Smith\n > wrote:\n\n > 4. Guns frequently appear in Wolfe's contemporary American\n settings, like\n > Castleview and Free Live Free.\n\n ...not to mention very prominently in _The Sorcerer's House_.\n\n\n > Of course, weapons may just be used for dramatic effect. \n However, our\n > author seems to believe that weapons can be used for good as\n well as evil.\n > No blanket condemnation of lethal force and lethal instruments.\n\n Weapons as such are morally neutral objects. It is their use that is\n morally fraught. As the saying goes, \"Gods don't kill people;\n religious fanatics kill people.\"\n\n --\n Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Rebecca Bushong-Taylor", "address": "rebeccabt01 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T06:18:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Of course, weapons may just be used for dramatic effect. However, our\nauthor seems to believe that weapons can be used for good as well as evil.\nNo blanket condemnation of lethal force and lethal instruments.\"\n\n\nI believe this is true. Gene has told me that when they were younger, he\nand Rosemary would regularly practice throwing knives, in part as a way to\nkeep the kids respectfully in line. He strongly encouraged me to take it\nup.\n\nI'm less sure about his thoughts regarding other forms of weaponry....\n\n\nRebecca" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\nWhatever views we readers may hold regarding the 2nd amendment, it appears\nthat our author likes to arm his characters.\n\n1. Severian openly carries his sword on Urth. Dr Talos carries a\nconcealed one.\n2. Silk, the best man on the Whorl, uses many weapons.\n3. In the ancient world, Latro and his companions are armed.\n4. Guns frequently appear in Wolfe's contemporary American settings, like\n*Castleview *and F*ree Live Free.*\n*\n*\n*Of course, weapons may just be used for dramatic effect. However, our\nauthor seems to believe that weapons can be used for good as well as evil.\nNo blanket condemnation of lethal force and lethal instruments.*\n*\n*\n*\n*\n*\n*\n*\n*\n*\\\\\n*\n\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is a classic A.E. Van Vogt story called The Weapon Shop which\naddresses\nthis issue using that interpretation.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weapon_Shop\nGreat pulp SF story. I loved it.\n\nAnd didn't Gene Wolfe mention Van Vogt in Fifth Head of Cerberus? I bet he\nhas\nread that story.\n\nAnyway, the wording of the Second Amendment is-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free\nState,\nthe right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To me this wording suggests an interpretation counter to the standard\nLibertarian view which seems to focus on the word \"free\" and ignores the\nother\n26 words. Bearing arms would seem to be meant for the defense of the state\nnot\nto attack the state or defend against it. A \"well regulated militia\"\nsounds like\na state organized function to me not some sort of individual defense\nagainst\nthe state or lawless brigands or wild animals.\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6542D4F73801402B964E21EEA3836602@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-03T15:17:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E1740.3060301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nExactly my thought. Dystopian government is an old SF theme. Depicting \nevil government agents says nothing about your beliefs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And you might favour givoing arms to the populace in Viron without \nnecessarily approving of it under all circumstances everywhere.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T15:51:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great anecdote, and it rather explains the essay on the proper use of\nthrowing knives in Castle of Days...\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 2:18 AM, Rebecca Bushong-Taylor\n wrote:\n\nI believe this is true. Gene has told me that when they were younger, he\nand Rosemary would regularly practice throwing knives, in part as a way to\nkeep the kids respectfully in line. He strongly encouraged me to take it\nup.\n\nI'm less sure about his thoughts regarding other forms of weaponry....\n\n\nRebecca" } ] }, { "message_id": "<536855.45031.qm@web58204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T16:59:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course Wolfe as an exmilitary man at the end of his seventh decade is going to have an affinity for weapons. My father, now seventy and an ex marine, always had a gun in the house, took me shooting as a child, taught me boxing, and completely embraced the martial \nculture as necessary to protect the people that you love. I was always taught if someone came in the house kill them and put a weapon in their hand and if they almost get out the door drag them back in. He doesn't go anywhere without his gun and has a concealed weapon permit.\n\nI imagine Wolfe is more devout than my father, but my mother is a devout catholic and also exmilitary and weapons are normal, just a part of every day life. What is surprising about someone who fought in Korea recognizing that weapons are necessary in life when someone else may hurt you?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri Jul 2nd, 2010 12:02 PM PDT Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Jack Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "4. ?Guns frequently appear in Wolfe's contemporary American settings, like\nCastleview and Free Live Free." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...not to mention very prominently in _The Sorcerer's House_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, weapons may just be used for dramatic effect. — However, our\nauthor seems to believe that weapons can be used for good as well as evil.\nNo blanket condemnation of lethal force and lethal instruments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Weapons as such are morally neutral objects. It is their use that is\nmorally fraught. As the saying goes, \"Gods don't kill people;\nreligious fanatics kill people.\"\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<19475418A6D34827AAC27706F802B71B@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-03T17:44:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Ya know the other thing about throwing knives, kid?\"\n\n\"I dunno, what?\"\n\n\"It's _deniable_\"\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n From: Rebecca Bushong-Taylor \n\n I believe this is true. Gene has told me that when they were younger, he and Rosemary would regularly practice throwing knives, in part as a way to keep the kids respectfully in line. He strongly encouraged me to take it up." } ] }, { "message_id": "<152912.32332.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T20:49:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<536855.45031.qm@web58204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Marc Aramini \nOf course Wolfe as an exmilitary man at the end of his seventh decade is going to have an affinity for\nweapons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not \"of course\". Ex-military people have all kinds of different feelings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My father, now seventy and an ex marine, always had a gun in the house, took me shooting as a\nchild, taught me boxing, and completely embraced the martial \nculture as necessary to protect the people that you love. I was always taught if someone came in the house\nkill them and put a weapon in their hand and if they almost get out the door drag them back in. He doesn't go\nanywhere without his gun and has a concealed weapon permit.\n\nI imagine Wolfe is more devout than my father, but my mother is a devout catholic and also exmilitary and\nweapons are normal, just a part of every day life. What is surprising about someone who fought in Korea\nrecognizing that weapons are necessary in life when someone else may hurt you?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that nothing is surprising about it. But the opposite happens too. Kurt Vonnegut fought in Germany, and he wrote \"Report on the Barnhouse Effect\", in which all weapons in the world are destroyed and the result is a better world (as I recall). I feel sure that a great many ex-military men in Britain are quite happy with their country's ban on handguns for civilians and even most of the police.\n\nNo doubt Wolfe thinks that weapons in themselves are morally neutral, as Dan'l says, but he seems to attach more importance to them than a lot of writers do. In addition to the examples people have mentioned, \"The Peace Spy\" shows nuclear weapons as protecting the world from war. That silly story whose name escapes me, about the knight and the princess and the creepy guy from the future, suggests that violence (not weapons, I realize) is essential for human survival. And Gwern is telling us that a story in /Starwater Strains/, which I haven't read, depicts a future tyranny as disarming the public. Lots of people have written dystopias without ever mentioning laws on weapon ownership.\n\nI'm not going to get into a debate on the correct reading of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but I think it's possible that Wolfe is participating in the decades-old debate on American gun-ownership laws. His apparent view isn't unusual or surprising, but I think it's worth our discussion.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T21:02:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<152912.32332.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI'm not going to get into a debate on the correct reading of the Second\nAmendment to the U.S. Constitution, but I think it's possible that Wolfe is\nparticipating in the decades-old debate on American gun-ownership laws. His\napparent view isn't unusual or surprising, but I think it's worth our\ndiscussion.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To the extent that Gene Wolfe expresses sympathy with the view of the\nmajority of Americans as to gun ownership, I agree that there's very little\n\"unusual\" or \"surprising\" about that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<67C4B3E64188449199B6A6E510A554AE@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-03T21:30:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<152912.32332.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jerry Friedman\" \nNo doubt Wolfe thinks that weapons in themselves are morally neutral, as \nDan'l says, but he seems to attach more importance to them than a lot of \nwriters do. In addition to the examples people have mentioned, \"The Peace \nSpy\" shows nuclear weapons as protecting the world from war." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but not from _fear_.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2FACE5.3000206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-03T21:34:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What view is that, exactly?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Jerry Friedman \n> wrote:\n\n I'm not going to get into a debate on the correct reading of the\n Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but I think it's\n possible that Wolfe is participating in the decades-old debate on\n American gun-ownership laws. His apparent view isn't unusual or\n surprising, but I think it's worth our discussion.\n\n Jerry Friedman\n\n \nTo the extent that Gene Wolfe expresses sympathy with the view of the \nmajority of Americans as to gun ownership, I agree that there's very \nlittle \"unusual\" or \"surprising\" about that.\n \n \n \n\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T21:38:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2FACE5.3000206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That the right of the citizenry to possess weapons should be relatively\nunencumbered." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 5:34 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhat view is that, exactly?\n\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Jerry Friedman > wrote:\n\n I'm not going to get into a debate on the correct reading of the\n Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but I think it's\n possible that Wolfe is participating in the decades-old debate on\n American gun-ownership laws. His apparent view isn't unusual or\n surprising, but I think it's worth our discussion.\n\n Jerry Friedman\n\n To the extent that Gene Wolfe expresses sympathy with the view of the\nmajority of Americans as to gun ownership, I agree that there's very little\n\"unusual\" or \"surprising\" about that.\n\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, write urth at urth.net \n Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net \n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2FC210.5040606@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-03T23:04:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<152912.32332.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/3/2010 3:49 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Marc Aramini" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course Wolfe as an exmilitary man at the end of his seventh decade is going to have an affinity for\nweapons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eighth. While Wolfe was at one time a proto-millitary man in that he was \na cadet at Texas A&M, he apparently found the jingoism and casual sadism \nsucked more than being a draftee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not \"of course\". Ex-military people have all kinds of different feelings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ditto former Marine and short story writer essay, Andre Dubus. His \nfictional \"The Intruder\" and nonfictional \"Why I Gave Up My Guns\" detail \nhis ambivalent feelings about weapons." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Milton Jackson", "address": "miltonwjackson at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T00:06:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2FC210.5040606@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would be a legitimate interpretation of the Second Amendment, Lee,\nexcept for two things:\n\n1) The Founders who wrote it that way didn't interpret it that way. I'd\nimagine they would know since they wrote the thing.\n\n2) The Bill of Rights was placed in the Constitution for the purpose of\nprotecting the people's liberties against the encroachments of the\ngovernment. It's hard to imagine how people who had just spent seven years\nfighting a war largely with weapons they themselves owned would suddenly\nsay, \"Well, you know, the government alone has the power to own weapons now.\nYou guys who have your own weapons need to hand them over.\" There's simply a\nlogical disconnect there.\n\nA deconstruction of the 2nd Amendment's words--to my mind at\nleast--indicates it says exactly what the Founders meant it to say. A\nwell-regulated militia is necessary in the United States; hence, we have the\nvarious branches of the armed forces. The right of the people to keep and\nbear arms is not to be infringed. In other words, people are allowed to own\nweapons. The 4th and 14th Amendments modify this and other rights from being\nabsolute by saying the government has the right to deprive individual\ncitizens of rights like life, liberty, and property after due process of\nlaw. Nonetheless, viewed in terms of its wording, the context it was written\nunder, and the intent and interpretation of the Founders themselves, it\nseems quite clear to me the 2nd Amendment is intended to protect the right\nto own weapons of the populace fully as much as the 1st Amendment protects\nthe right to speech, press, peaceable assembly, and religion and the 5th\nAmendment protects the right to avoid self-incrimination. All other rights\nlaid forth in the Bill of Rights are intended to protect individuals'\nrights. There's no reason to believe the 2nd Amendment espouses anything\ndifferent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/3/2010 3:49 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Marc Aramini\n\n\nOf course Wolfe as an exmilitary man at the end of his seventh decade is\ngoing to have an affinity for\nweapons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eighth. While Wolfe was at one time a proto-millitary man in that he was a\ncadet at Texas A&M, he apparently found the jingoism and casual sadism\nsucked more than being a draftee.\n\n\nIt's not \"of course\". Ex-military people have all kinds of different\nfeelings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ditto former Marine and short story writer essay, Andre Dubus. His\nfictional \"The Intruder\" and nonfictional \"Why I Gave Up My Guns\" detail his\nambivalent feelings about weapons.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<147808.2847.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T00:33:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: John Watkins :\nOn Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 5:34 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " I'm not going to get into a debate on the correct reading of the\nSecond Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but I think it's\npossible that Wolfe is participating in the decades-old debate on\nAmerican gun-ownership laws. His apparent view isn't unusual or\nsurprising, but I think it's worth our discussion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "To the extent that Gene Wolfe expresses sympathy with the view of the majority of\nAmericans as to gun ownership, I agree that there's very little \"unusual\" or \"surprising\"\nabout that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " \nWhat view is that, exactly?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That the right of the citizenry to possess weapons should be relatively \nunencumbered." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's an opinion poll from 2008.\n\nhttp://www.gallup.com/poll/108394/americans-agreement-supreme-court-gun-rights.aspx\n\nI suspect Wolfe was in the 11% who thought gun laws should be less strict than they were in 2008.\n\nJerry Friedman can't figure out how to get rid of those vertical lines." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C2FFA34.3030108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-04T03:04:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's not at all surprising. And indeed they are relatively \nunencumbered." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nThat the right of the citizenry to possess weapons should be \nrelatively unencumbered.\n\nOn Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 5:34 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n What view is that, exactly?\n\n John Watkins wrote:\n\n\n\n On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Jerry Friedman\n \n >> wrote:\n\n I'm not going to get into a debate on the correct reading\n of the\n Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but I think it's\n possible that Wolfe is participating in the decades-old\n debate on\n American gun-ownership laws. His apparent view isn't\n unusual or\n surprising, but I think it's worth our discussion.\n\n Jerry Friedman\n\n To the extent that Gene Wolfe expresses sympathy with the\n view of the majority of Americans as to gun ownership, I\n agree that there's very little \"unusual\" or \"surprising\" about\n that.\n \n\n\n\n _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, write urth at urth.net \n >\n Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n \n\n\n ------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C300045.90909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-04T03:30:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<147808.2847.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course that's rather a silly question to ask people in a survey: are \nguns A-OK, or should only the army and police have them---even pistols, \nthat favorite weapon of well-regulated militias?\n\nIt is useless in determining whether people actually think the state \nmust allow citizens to carry concealed handguns into nightclubs or onto \ntrains, planes, and taxis or into supermarkets, schools, churches, and \nlibraries in gun-crime-plagued cities far from their own homes.\n\nOne may as well ask: should people be required to educate themselves \nbefore they earn the privilege of voting, or should the government \nassign votes to each citizen?\n\nFurthermore, I am quite sure a similar majority of Americans believe \nthat handguns are good for self-defense. I'm all for self-defense and \n(registered) gun ownership, but the two have little to do with one another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\n*From:* John Watkins :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 5:34 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " >>>> I'm not going to get into a debate on the correct\n reading of the\n >>>>Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but I think it's\n >>>> possible that Wolfe is participating in the decades-old\n debate on\n >>>> American gun-ownership laws. His apparent view isn't\n unusual or\n >>>> surprising, but I think it's worth our discussion.\n\n >>> To the extent that Gene Wolfe expresses sympathy with the\n view of the majority of\n >>> Americans as to gun ownership, I agree that there's very\n little \"unusual\" or \"surprising\"\n >>> about that.\n \n >> What view is that, exactly?\n\n > That the right of the citizenry to possess weapons should be\n relatively unencumbered.\n\n Here's an opinion poll from 2008.\n\n http://www.gallup.com/poll/108394/americans-agreement-supreme-court-gun-rights.aspx\n\n I suspect Wolfe was in the 11% who thought gun laws should be\n less strict than they were in 2008.\n\n Jerry Friedman can't figure out how to get rid of those\n vertical lines.\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T03:55:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C300045.90909@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That would be a legitimate interpretation of the Second Amendment, Lee,\nexcept for two things:\n1) The Founders who wrote it that way didn't interpret it that way. I'd\nimagine they would know since they wrote the thing.\n2) The Bill of Rights was placed in the Constitution for the purpose of\nprotecting the people's liberties against the encroachments of the\ngovernment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThose are reasonable arguments. I have nothing against them. It just appears\nto me that the purpose of the Second Amendment was to allow regulated militias\nto function. This has little to do with how the Second Amendment is usually\ninvoked today. Why didn't the Founding Fathers mention self-defense, hunting\nand defense from fascist governments in that amendment? Why only militias? And\nare there now legal militias which rely on self-owned weapons? In all militias\nI know of,you must use a government owned weapon, yes? A militia armed solely \nwith self-owned weapons would tend to get the Ruby Ridge/Waco treatment, I think.\n \nI have never felt a need for personal ownership of guns so I'm sure that fact\nbiases my opinion of the Second Amendment, just as those who enjoy the ownership\nof guns would be similarly biased in the opposite direction. It is an interesting\ntopic but not one I will waste more of this board's space on. I can only invoke\nA.E. Van Vogt so many times ;-). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C30384D.9020608@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T07:29:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/3/2010 10:55 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nWhy didn't the Founding Fathers mention self-defense, hunting\nand defense from fascist governments in that amendment?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"to secure a free State\" covers defending against fascism. Self-defense \nand hunting would be matters reserved for the states, or more local \nunits still." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why only militias? And\nare there now legal militias which rely on self-owned weapons?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, starting will all serious historical re-enactment clubs. It's not \njust a Civil War or Revolutionary War thing, there are guys who drill \nwith period Russian and German uniforms, personal weaponry, and tactical \nformations, and wargame house-to-house fighting from the Battle of \nStalingrad. among other places. They own their own weapons or borrow a \nfriend's extras, which are typically functional.\n\nEven the SCA is considered a millita by the FBI due to the \"heavy \nweapons\" activities that include training people to fight in massed \nformations, albeit with sticks and shields and the occasional volley of \narrows or simulated fiery bombard." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " A militia armed solely\nwith self-owned weapons would tend to get the Ruby Ridge/Waco treatment, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is a problem, but the Justice Department settled with the Ruby \nRidge survivors in the millions and the FBI sniper was twice indicted \nfor homicide.\n\nThe Waco incident was horrendouslyt convoluted and total flame bait, so \nI'll just give you that." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C30751E.9080004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-04T11:48:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C30384D.9020608@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and armed \nrace riots.\n\nBut I agree that the 2A did not have individual self-defense against \nmuggers and burglars in mind, any more than it was intended to secure \nonly the state's right to defend itself. It addresses the right of the \nPeople. Not persons. Not states." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/3/2010 10:55 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why didn't the Founding Fathers mention self-defense, hunting\nand defense from fascist governments in that amendment?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"to secure a free State\" covers defending against fascism. \nSelf-defense and hunting would be matters reserved for the states, or \nmore local units still." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C30866F.1030909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T13:02:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C30751E.9080004@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/4/2010 6:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOf course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and armed\nrace riots." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure how much of this is humor or rhetoric." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I agree that the 2A did not have individual self-defense against\nmuggers and burglars in mind, any more than it was intended to secure\nonly the state's right to defend itself. It addresses the right of the\nPeople. Not persons. Not states." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure how you distinguish between persons and People. The 4th \namendment, introduced at the same time on the same piece of paper, uses \nthe identical wording \"the right of the people\". Does this mean that \npersons, houses, papers, and effects are also held under government \nregulation as a collective rather than an individual right? Of course, \nin the idiom of the time, \"person\" had a much stronger connotation than \ntoday of the individual's objective physical presence, their physical \nbody and the artifacts and space immediately proximate to it. This would \nmake it a poorer term of reference for establishing abstract, \ninalienable rights that endure even if the \"person\" had business \nphysically far afield.\n\nI'm pretty sure that Wolfe would agree that the People is made of \nindividuals, and while a state can be a sovereign person and not their \nsubjects, a literally democratic state is made of individual persons. \nGiven his prodigious, endlessly elaborate convolutions of notional \nlanguages and expressions historic and posthistoric, one can expect him \nto be more than sufficiently informed to take the Constitution as it was \nintended to be read in its time, as a document of its time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C308F02.4080402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-04T13:39:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C30866F.1030909@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/4/2010 6:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and armed\nrace riots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure how much of this is humor or rhetoric." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither. Just the facts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But I agree that the 2A did not have individual self-defense against\nmuggers and burglars in mind, any more than it was intended to secure\nonly the state's right to defend itself. It addresses the right of the\nPeople. Not persons. Not states." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure how you distinguish between persons and People. The 4th \namendment, introduced at the same time on the same piece of paper, \nuses the identical wording \"the right of the people\". Does this mean \nthat persons, houses, papers, and effects are also held under \ngovernment regulation as a collective rather than an individual right? \nOf course, in the idiom of the time, \"person\" had a much stronger \nconnotation than today of the individual's objective physical \npresence, their physical body and the artifacts and space immediately \nproximate to it. This would make it a poorer term of reference for \nestablishing abstract, inalienable rights that endure even if the \n\"person\" had business physically far afield." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that it is a tricky question and one central to any serious \ndebate about the 2A. But the People plainly are thought to defend \nthemselves with an organized militia based on universal individual \nlong-gun ownership, because that's what a militia is. (I suppose a \nmilitia armed with pistols could be effective if mounted, but hardly \notherwise. And such could keep order against minor disruptions, just as \ncops with .38s can. But there is probably no precedent for an \nall-handgun militia, because generally handguns have been more \ncontrolled than rifles. With good reason.)\n\nAny reading regarding individuals acting outside of an organized group, \nor regarding either pistols or machine guns, or defense against muggers \nand burglars, has to connect with this basic idea or fail to ground \nitself in the 2A. Thus, it's hard to see how it spells out my right to \ncarry a concealed pocket revolver in a club at 2:00 AM in a city whose \nresidents fear handguns enough to collectively decide to ban them, let \nalone my right to have several machine gun nests positioned around my \nhouse. But it certainly lets me defend my property on my own as I see \nfit, and that's where I think most Americans do overwhelmingly agree. \nIt's just too bad that handguns kill more handgun owners and their \nchildren than they do burglars.\n\nAlthough one could argue that absent any police force or guard at all, \neither of these \"rights\" may suddenly become useful. And that's what SF \nis good for---exploring such situations. Zombies, for example. Don't \ntake that argument to the SC, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm pretty sure that Wolfe would agree that the People is made of \nindividuals, and while a state can be a sovereign person and not their \nsubjects, a literally democratic state is made of individual persons. \nGiven his prodigious, endlessly elaborate convolutions of notional \nlanguages and expressions historic and posthistoric, one can expect \nhim to be more than sufficiently informed to take the Constitution as \nit was intended to be read in its time, as a document of its time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. See above." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C30BD90.8040300@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-04T16:57:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C308F02.4080402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/4/2010 8:39 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nBelow.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/4/2010 6:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and armed\nrace riots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure how much of this is humor or rhetoric." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither. Just the facts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd agree on texbook fascism then, but lynching and armed race violence \ngo back to biblical times. There was also no shortage of mob justice and \nscore-settling under the pretext of political differences before during \nand after the Revolutionary War." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Although one could argue that absent any police force or guard at all,\neither of these \"rights\" may suddenly become useful. And that's what SF\nis good for---exploring such situations. Zombies, for example. Don't\ntake that argument to the SC, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's just what they did not have; there was nothing like the modern, \nfull-time municipal police force for the great majority of people then. \nThe context is different today, thank god, but one still cannot count on \nimmediate police response in general, chiefly because they have finite \nresources, to make demands on their time is easy, convenient, and \nsubsidized, and there are signficant legal, financial, and political \nconsequences to the police for responding and acting in way later judged \nimproper, but essentially none for their failure to respond in a timely \nfashion or all.\n\nTo maintain thread relevance, this is the sort of lamentable systems \nfailure from perverse incentives so many of Wolfe's characters remark upon." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C30D87E.9050805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-04T18:52:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C30BD90.8040300@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Half the history of the human race is the history of mob violence. But \nAmerican race violence worsened through the turn of the 20th century. \nThat's not to say it wasn't an issue earlier. Protecting your town \nagainst attackers from another town, as happened in the most notorious \nriots, would certainly call for a militia, but in the late 1700s, Indian \n\"raids\" were probably more on peoples' minds.\n\nThe towns had watches; the 2A was probably not primarily meant to \nsupport them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/4/2010 8:39 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Below.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/4/2010 6:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and armed\nrace riots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not sure how much of this is humor or rhetoric." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Neither. Just the facts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd agree on texbook fascism then, but lynching and armed race \nviolence go back to biblical times. There was also no shortage of mob \njustice and score-settling under the pretext of political differences \nbefore during and after the Revolutionary War." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Although one could argue that absent any police force or guard at all,\neither of these \"rights\" may suddenly become useful. And that's what SF\nis good for---exploring such situations. Zombies, for example. Don't\ntake that argument to the SC, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's just what they did not have; there was nothing like the modern, \nfull-time municipal police force for the great majority of people \nthen. The context is different today, thank god, but one still cannot \ncount on immediate police response in general, chiefly because they \nhave finite resources, to make demands on their time is easy, \nconvenient, and subsidized, and there are signficant legal, financial, \nand political consequences to the police for responding and acting in \nway later judged improper, but essentially none for their failure to \nrespond in a timely fashion or all.\n\nTo maintain thread relevance, this is the sort of lamentable systems \nfailure from perverse incentives so many of Wolfe's characters remark \nupon." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-06T21:51:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E253D.1080903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have none of you read the Federalist and the Antifederalist?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or to defend the State state vs the Federal state, at most.\n\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The intent of the second amendment is to allow the citizenry to more\nreadily defend themselves against the government, when this becomes\nnecessary, as it inevitably does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is a classic A.E. Van Vogt story called The Weapon Shop which\naddresses\nthis issue using that interpretation.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weapon_Shop\nGreat pulp SF story. I loved it.\n\nAnd didn't Gene Wolfe mention Van Vogt in Fifth Head of Cerberus? I bet\nhe has\nread that story.\n\nAnyway, the wording of the Second Amendment is-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free\nState,\nthe right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To me this wording suggests an interpretation counter to the standard\nLibertarian view which seems to focus on the word \"free\" and ignores the\nother\n26 words. Bearing arms would seem to be meant for the defense of the\nstate not\nto attack the state or defend against it. A \"well regulated militia\"\nsounds like\na state organized function to me not some sort of individual defense\nagainst\nthe state or lawless brigands or wild animals.\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<709b9efeadf754d2b817b4f5d034f72d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-06T21:56:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "God kills everybody who dies.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Jack Smith \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "4. ?Guns frequently appear in Wolfe's contemporary American settings,\nlike\nCastleview and Free Live Free." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...not to mention very prominently in _The Sorcerer's House_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, weapons may just be used for dramatic effect. — However, our\nauthor seems to believe that weapons can be used for good as well as\nevil.\nNo blanket condemnation of lethal force and lethal instruments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Weapons as such are morally neutral objects. It is their use that is\nmorally fraught. As the saying goes, \"Gods don't kill people;\nreligious fanatics kill people.\"\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0aef4112032a745bd7b058621faff7da.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-06T22:14:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<536855.45031.qm@web58204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those of you who don't get this frighten me.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course Wolfe as an exmilitary man at the end of his seventh decade is\ngoing to have an affinity for weapons. My father, now seventy and an ex\nmarine, always had a gun in the house, took me shooting as a child, taught\nme boxing, and completely embraced the martial\nculture as necessary to protect the people that you love. I was always\ntaught if someone came in the house kill them and put a weapon in their\nhand and if they almost get out the door drag them back in. He doesn't go\nanywhere without his gun and has a concealed weapon permit.\n\nI imagine Wolfe is more devout than my father, but my mother is a devout\ncatholic and also exmilitary and weapons are normal, just a part of every\nday life. What is surprising about someone who fought in Korea recognizing\nthat weapons are necessary in life when someone else may hurt you?\n\nOn Fri Jul 2nd, 2010 12:02 PM PDT Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Jack Smith \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "4. ?Guns frequently appear in Wolfe's contemporary American settings,\nlike\nCastleview and Free Live Free." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...not to mention very prominently in _The Sorcerer's House_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course, weapons may just be used for dramatic effect. — However, our\nauthor seems to believe that weapons can be used for good as well as\nevil.\nNo blanket condemnation of lethal force and lethal instruments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Weapons as such are morally neutral objects. It is their use that is\nmorally fraught. As the saying goes, \"Gods don't kill people;\nreligious fanatics kill people.\"\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-06T22:23:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Free men may arm themselves in their own defense.\n\nSlaves may be armed in defense of their masters.\n\nLivestock has no desire to be armed.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That would be a legitimate interpretation of the Second Amendment, Lee,\nexcept for two things:\n1) The Founders who wrote it that way didn't interpret it that way. I'd\nimagine they would know since they wrote the thing.\n2) The Bill of Rights was placed in the Constitution for the purpose of\nprotecting the people's liberties against the encroachments of the\ngovernment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those are reasonable arguments. I have nothing against them. It just\nappears\nto me that the purpose of the Second Amendment was to allow regulated\nmilitias\nto function. This has little to do with how the Second Amendment is\nusually\ninvoked today. Why didn't the Founding Fathers mention self-defense,\nhunting\nand defense from fascist governments in that amendment? Why only militias?\nAnd\nare there now legal militias which rely on self-owned weapons? In all\nmilitias\nI know of,you must use a government owned weapon, yes? A militia armed\nsolely\nwith self-owned weapons would tend to get the Ruby Ridge/Waco treatment, I\nthink.\n\nI have never felt a need for personal ownership of guns so I'm sure that\nfact\nbiases my opinion of the Second Amendment, just as those who enjoy the\nownership\nof guns would be similarly biased in the opposite direction. It is an\ninteresting\ntopic but not one I will waste more of this board's space on. I can only\ninvoke\nA.E. Van Vogt so many times ;-).\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your\ninbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-06T22:25:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C30751E.9080004@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and armed\nrace riots." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How ignorant are you, exactly?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-06T22:27:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C308F02.4080402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Below.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/4/2010 6:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and armed\nrace riots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure how much of this is humor or rhetoric." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither. Just the facts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No one was ever lynched before the 19th century or so.\n\nThere were never any ethnic conflicts, or if there were, they used their\nfists.\n\nThe rivers flowed with soda water, and lollipops grew on trees.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But I agree that the 2A did not have individual self-defense against\nmuggers and burglars in mind, any more than it was intended to secure\nonly the state's right to defend itself. It addresses the right of the\nPeople. Not persons. Not states." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure how you distinguish between persons and People. The 4th\namendment, introduced at the same time on the same piece of paper,\nuses the identical wording \"the right of the people\". Does this mean\nthat persons, houses, papers, and effects are also held under\ngovernment regulation as a collective rather than an individual right?\nOf course, in the idiom of the time, \"person\" had a much stronger\nconnotation than today of the individual's objective physical\npresence, their physical body and the artifacts and space immediately\nproximate to it. This would make it a poorer term of reference for\nestablishing abstract, inalienable rights that endure even if the\n\"person\" had business physically far afield." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that it is a tricky question and one central to any serious\ndebate about the 2A. But the People plainly are thought to defend\nthemselves with an organized militia based on universal individual\nlong-gun ownership, because that's what a militia is. (I suppose a\nmilitia armed with pistols could be effective if mounted, but hardly\notherwise. And such could keep order against minor disruptions, just as\ncops with .38s can. But there is probably no precedent for an\nall-handgun militia, because generally handguns have been more\ncontrolled than rifles. With good reason.)\n\nAny reading regarding individuals acting outside of an organized group,\nor regarding either pistols or machine guns, or defense against muggers\nand burglars, has to connect with this basic idea or fail to ground\nitself in the 2A. Thus, it's hard to see how it spells out my right to\ncarry a concealed pocket revolver in a club at 2:00 AM in a city whose\nresidents fear handguns enough to collectively decide to ban them, let\nalone my right to have several machine gun nests positioned around my\nhouse. But it certainly lets me defend my property on my own as I see\nfit, and that's where I think most Americans do overwhelmingly agree.\nIt's just too bad that handguns kill more handgun owners and their\nchildren than they do burglars.\n\nAlthough one could argue that absent any police force or guard at all,\neither of these \"rights\" may suddenly become useful. And that's what SF\nis good for---exploring such situations. Zombies, for example. Don't\ntake that argument to the SC, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm pretty sure that Wolfe would agree that the People is made of\nindividuals, and while a state can be a sovereign person and not their\nsubjects, a literally democratic state is made of individual persons.\nGiven his prodigious, endlessly elaborate convolutions of notional\nlanguages and expressions historic and posthistoric, one can expect\nhim to be more than sufficiently informed to take the Constitution as\nit was intended to be read in its time, as a document of its time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure. See above.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C33B567.3070009@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-06T22:59:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/06/2010 04:51 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nHave none of you read the Federalist and the Antifederalist?\n\n.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Was that the one with the giant with a ship for a head, and the magic \nblack beans, and the boy fishing for the Sun?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C33B7C9.302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-06T23:10:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of Brunianism? Very." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOf course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and armed\nrace riots.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How ignorant are you, exactly?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<43c34e18fd2558df617ce58abddb4bdb.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T00:03:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C33B567.3070009@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was not.\n\nIt was the debate over the ratification of the American constitution,\nconducted in the press.\n\nThis very issue, that of the right to keep and bear arms, was discussed by\nthe people who wrote the Constitution in these epistles.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/06/2010 04:51 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have none of you read the Federalist and the Antifederalist?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was that the one with the giant with a ship for a head, and the magic\nblack beans, and the boy fishing for the Sun?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<42e40ee8a8c826cd921180553cea92e2.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T00:05:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C33B7C9.302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of Reality, David, specifically as it manifests in human behavior.\n\nIt is a rhetorical question.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of Brunianism? Very.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and armed\nrace riots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How ignorant are you, exactly?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C33C9F2.1010106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T00:27:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<42e40ee8a8c826cd921180553cea92e2.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As was mine!\n\nI admit; I lied. I WAS being a little facetious.\n\nBut I really don't think the Founders were concerned about armed white \nmen killing blacks. First, the rhetoric hadn't heated up to the point \nwhere it was 100 years later. You could still teach black slaves to \nread. Second, they would have been more concerned, however \nunrealistically, about armed black slaves killing whites, but again see \npoint #1. Indians were far more of a \"problem\" (i.e., scapegoat).\n\nDo you support slaveowners' right to arm themselves against slave \nuprisings? Do you support the right of slaves to arm themselves against \ntheir \"owners\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOf Reality, David, specifically as it manifests in human behavior.\n\nIt is a rhetorical question.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of Brunianism? Very.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and armed\nrace riots.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How ignorant are you, exactly?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100706-1, 07/06/2010\nTested on: 7/6/2010 7:07:05 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7581b114d1e43477a646217073f503ad.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T00:45:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C33C9F2.1010106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They weren't.\n\nIt was ordinary practice to arm your slaves when you moved about in\ndangerous territory.\n\nYou mistakenly believe that I am as ignorant as you.\n\nPlease do not assume that you know in detail what I am talking about.\n\nAsk questions to elicit information.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As was mine!\n\nI admit; I lied. I WAS being a little facetious.\n\nBut I really don't think the Founders were concerned about armed white\nmen killing blacks. First, the rhetoric hadn't heated up to the point\nwhere it was 100 years later. You could still teach black slaves to\nread. Second, they would have been more concerned, however\nunrealistically, about armed black slaves killing whites, but again see\npoint #1. Indians were far more of a \"problem\" (i.e., scapegoat).\n\nDo you support slaveowners' right to arm themselves against slave\nuprisings? Do you support the right of slaves to arm themselves against\ntheir \"owners\"?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of Reality, David, specifically as it manifests in human behavior.\n\nIt is a rhetorical question.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of Brunianism? Very.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and\narmed\nrace riots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "How ignorant are you, exactly?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C33D004.8080401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T00:53:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<7581b114d1e43477a646217073f503ad.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right.\n\nYes, of course it was. So what?\n\nDo you actually have any information?\n\nWe can't know if you don't say what you're talking about---but of course \nyou never do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThey weren't.\n\nIt was ordinary practice to arm your slaves when you moved about in\ndangerous territory.\n\nYou mistakenly believe that I am as ignorant as you.\n\nPlease do not assume that you know in detail what I am talking about.\n\nAsk questions to elicit information.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As was mine!\n\nI admit; I lied. I WAS being a little facetious.\n\nBut I really don't think the Founders were concerned about armed white\nmen killing blacks. First, the rhetoric hadn't heated up to the point\nwhere it was 100 years later. You could still teach black slaves to\nread. Second, they would have been more concerned, however\nunrealistically, about armed black slaves killing whites, but again see\npoint #1. Indians were far more of a \"problem\" (i.e., scapegoat).\n\nDo you support slaveowners' right to arm themselves against slave\nuprisings? Do you support the right of slaves to arm themselves against\ntheir \"owners\"?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of Reality, David, specifically as it manifests in human behavior.\n\nIt is a rhetorical question.\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Of Brunianism? Very.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and\narmed\nrace riots.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "How ignorant are you, exactly?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bdf4ab14453faa8aaa41f3d6a8a15c5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T03:25:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C33D004.8080401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I actually have information.\n\nWhat information would you like?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right.\n\nYes, of course it was. So what?\n\nDo you actually have any information?\n\nWe can't know if you don't say what you're talking about---but of course\nyou never do.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They weren't.\n\nIt was ordinary practice to arm your slaves when you moved about in\ndangerous territory.\n\nYou mistakenly believe that I am as ignorant as you.\n\nPlease do not assume that you know in detail what I am talking about.\n\nAsk questions to elicit information.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As was mine!\n\nI admit; I lied. I WAS being a little facetious.\n\nBut I really don't think the Founders were concerned about armed white\nmen killing blacks. First, the rhetoric hadn't heated up to the point\nwhere it was 100 years later. You could still teach black slaves to\nread. Second, they would have been more concerned, however\nunrealistically, about armed black slaves killing whites, but again see\npoint #1. Indians were far more of a \"problem\" (i.e., scapegoat).\n\nDo you support slaveowners' right to arm themselves against slave\nuprisings? Do you support the right of slaves to arm themselves against\ntheir \"owners\"?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Of Reality, David, specifically as it manifests in human behavior.\n\nIt is a rhetorical question.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Of Brunianism? Very.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and\narmed\nrace riots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "How ignorant are you, exactly?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C33F402.1020703@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T03:26:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1bdf4ab14453faa8aaa41f3d6a8a15c5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said, \"So what\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI actually have information.\n\nWhat information would you like?\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Right.\n\nYes, of course it was. So what?\n\nDo you actually have any information?\n\nWe can't know if you don't say what you're talking about---but of course\nyou never do.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "They weren't.\n\nIt was ordinary practice to arm your slaves when you moved about in\ndangerous territory.\n\nYou mistakenly believe that I am as ignorant as you.\n\nPlease do not assume that you know in detail what I am talking about.\n\nAsk questions to elicit information.\n\n.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "As was mine!\n\nI admit; I lied. I WAS being a little facetious.\n\nBut I really don't think the Founders were concerned about armed white\nmen killing blacks. First, the rhetoric hadn't heated up to the point\nwhere it was 100 years later. You could still teach black slaves to\nread. Second, they would have been more concerned, however\nunrealistically, about armed black slaves killing whites, but again see\npoint #1. Indians were far more of a \"problem\" (i.e., scapegoat).\n\nDo you support slaveowners' right to arm themselves against slave\nuprisings? Do you support the right of slaves to arm themselves against\ntheir \"owners\"?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Of Reality, David, specifically as it manifests in human behavior.\n\nIt is a rhetorical question.\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Of Brunianism? Very.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and\narmed\nrace riots.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "How ignorant are you, exactly?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100706-1, 07/06/2010\nTested on: 7/6/2010 7:07:05 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C33F456.5050007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T03:28:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<1bdf4ab14453faa8aaa41f3d6a8a15c5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/06/2010 10:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI actually have information.\n\nWhat information would you like?\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"FOURTEEN!\" shouted the Humbug, always eager to be first with the wrong \nanswer." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-07T05:02:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C33F402.1020703@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First you want information, then you don't want information.\n\nYou don't know what you want.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I said, \"So what\"?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I actually have information.\n\nWhat information would you like?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Right.\n\nYes, of course it was. So what?\n\nDo you actually have any information?\n\nWe can't know if you don't say what you're talking about---but of\ncourse\nyou never do.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "They weren't.\n\nIt was ordinary practice to arm your slaves when you moved about in\ndangerous territory.\n\nYou mistakenly believe that I am as ignorant as you.\n\nPlease do not assume that you know in detail what I am talking about.\n\nAsk questions to elicit information.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "As was mine!\n\nI admit; I lied. I WAS being a little facetious.\n\nBut I really don't think the Founders were concerned about armed\nwhite\nmen killing blacks. First, the rhetoric hadn't heated up to the point\nwhere it was 100 years later. You could still teach black slaves to\nread. Second, they would have been more concerned, however\nunrealistically, about armed black slaves killing whites, but again\nsee\npoint #1. Indians were far more of a \"problem\" (i.e., scapegoat).\n\nDo you support slaveowners' right to arm themselves against slave\nuprisings? Do you support the right of slaves to arm themselves\nagainst\ntheir \"owners\"?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Of Reality, David, specifically as it manifests in human behavior.\n\nIt is a rhetorical question.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Of Brunianism? Very.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Of course fascism hadn't been invented yet. Nor had lynching and\narmed\nrace riots." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "How ignorant are you, exactly?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100706-1, 07/06/2010\nTested on: 7/6/2010 7:07:05 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3470C1.3070409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-07T12:19:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C33F456.5050007@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is that, Adam? It's so familiar, but Google fails me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn 07/06/2010 10:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I actually have information.\n\nWhat information would you like?\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"FOURTEEN!\" shouted the Humbug, always eager to be first with the \nwrong answer.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C347DF9.70300@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-07T13:15:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C3470C1.3070409@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/07/2010 07:19 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhat is that, Adam? It's so familiar, but Google fails me.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 07/06/2010 10:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I actually have information.\n\nWhat information would you like?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"FOURTEEN!\" shouted the Humbug, always eager to be first with the \nwrong answer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's _The Phantom Tollbooth_, but from memory, so it's probably incorrect.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Thornton", "address": "oblate777 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T02:44:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) gnomic utterances", "in_reply_to": "<4C347DF9.70300@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I un-lurk to agree with David Stockhoff.\n\nJosh, if you could talk more about Wolfe and maybe expound further upon your thoughts, I would personally appreciate it. \n\nI think who we are as list members should take second place to what we think about Wolfe and the many aspects of his works. and we keep on running right into non-Wolfe-related issues of personal belief. You are playing a key role in encouraging non-Wolfean discourse of almost any sort. \n\nPlease, I don't want to unsubscribe due to this silliness. Also, Josh, I will not respond to any personal attacks, defenses of your approach to posting, or anything else except Wolfe-related matters. I have not delved deep into Wolfe and I enjoy when others do. That's what this list is about right?\n\nRob" } ] }, { "message_id": "<64373f65906b9522f96b212ffb39d6df.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T03:05:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) gnomic utterances", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not here to adulate Gene Wolfe.\n\nI am here to discuss his work.\n\nYou are as welcome to dislike my point of view and me personally as David is.\n\nWhy do you think it may be important to me that you agree with David?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I un-lurk to agree with David Stockhoff.\n\nJosh, if you could talk more about Wolfe and maybe expound further upon\nyour thoughts, I would personally appreciate it.\n\nI think who we are as list members should take second place to what we\nthink about Wolfe and the many aspects of his works. and we keep on\nrunning right into non-Wolfe-related issues of personal belief. You are\nplaying a key role in encouraging non-Wolfean discourse of almost any\nsort.\n\nPlease, I don't want to unsubscribe due to this silliness. Also, Josh, I\nwill not respond to any personal attacks, defenses of your approach to\nposting, or anything else except Wolfe-related matters. I have not delved\ndeep into Wolfe and I enjoy when others do. That's what this list is about\nright?\n\nRob\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T10:28:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C2E04B6.8080306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nThis is an ingenious method to kill a zombie thread (\"Appearance of Inire\"):\nreintroduce an old zombie thread that has already resurrected itself 3 times\npreviously to flush it away. Presumably, the list has built up enough\nantibodies to fight off \"The Politics of Gene Wolfe\" in short order and then\nboth zombie threads are gone. We shall call this the Zombie Colonic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was sure that I had, at some point, remarked that Wolfe's books\nseemed to be getting more political (or perhaps I should say,\npolitically incorrect?) as he got older. However, that particular\nemail was the best I could do in finding my previous comments to which\nmy _Starwater Strains_ email was a reply." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Sunanda wrote:\nHave you read _Operation Ares_?\nPerhaps an outlier, but definitely political.\n\nSunanda" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, never. (Nor have I read the collection of his Korea letters.) How\nis OA political?\n\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:35 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the most part, however, the examples given from \"Starwater Strains\" are\nseeing what one expects to see. You don't have to be a\nconservative/libertarian to imagine a dystopian government (ex. George\nOrwell). You don't need to be a Tea Partyer to wish well a revolution that\nwill bring down the \"big important gangs with suits and guns\". That sounds\nlike the communist/anarchist G-20 protesters in Toronto." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree. Those protesters are equally pro-gun control. When was the\nlast time you saw MoveOn.org and its ilk urge the expiry of the\nassault weapons ban? Who are gnashing their teeth over the recent\nSupreme Court decision but the same general set of liberals that worry\nabout climate change and evil multinationals? And I mentioned the\nstory that was just about the debasement of money - when was the last\ntime you saw liberals worry about the coinage? (From reading the _New\nYork Times_ opeds, their chief concern seems to be what rate of\ndebasement/inflation is best for economic growth.)\n\nThese aren't generic SF/libertarian fears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nAnd Gwern is telling us that a story in /Starwater Strains/, which I haven't read, depicts a future tyranny as disarming the public. Lots of people have written dystopias without ever mentioning laws on weapon ownership." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 2:18 AM, Rebecca Bushong-Taylor\n wrote:\nI believe this is true. Gene has told me that when they were younger, he\nand Rosemary would regularly practice throwing knives, in part as a way to\nkeep the kids respectfully in line. He strongly encouraged me to take it\nup." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Matthew Keeley\n wrote:\nGreat anecdote, and it rather explains the essay on the proper use of\nthrowing knives in Castle of Days..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I too am entertained, but also a little perplexed. With Robert Jordan,\nwho so far as I am aware has never thrown a knife in his life, the\nbooks are full of knife throwers. (In _Wheel of Time_, knife-throwing\nseems to be a standard skill, akin to swimming - it's more surprising\nwhen a character *can't* do it.) But with Wolfe, who is quite\nknowledgeable, knife-throwers are very rare. Offhand, I can't think of\none!\n\nI guess we could say that SF and fantasy writers write what they don't know..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T10:35:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nBut with Wolfe, who is quite\nknowledgeable, knife-throwers are very rare. Offhand, I can't think of\none!\n\nCan only think of one, offhand: Kypris-in-Chenille, in the manteion with" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk and Remora, throwing Musk's knife." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T10:55:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You generalize well, Gwern.\n\nI've always admired that in you.\n\nI find little to argue with you besides that.\n\nIn any case, I never argue.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is an ingenious method to kill a zombie thread (\"Appearance of\nInire\"):\nreintroduce an old zombie thread that has already resurrected itself 3\ntimes\npreviously to flush it away. Presumably, the list has built up enough\nantibodies to fight off \"The Politics of Gene Wolfe\" in short order and\nthen\nboth zombie threads are gone. We shall call this the Zombie Colonic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was sure that I had, at some point, remarked that Wolfe's books\nseemed to be getting more political (or perhaps I should say,\npolitically incorrect?) as he got older. However, that particular\nemail was the best I could do in finding my previous comments to which\nmy _Starwater Strains_ email was a reply.\n\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Sunanda wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have you read _Operation Ares_?\nPerhaps an outlier, but definitely political.\n\nSunanda" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, never. (Nor have I read the collection of his Korea letters.) How\nis OA political?\n\nOn Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:35 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For the most part, however, the examples given from \"Starwater Strains\"\nare\nseeing what one expects to see. You don't have to be a\nconservative/libertarian to imagine a dystopian government (ex. George\nOrwell). You don't need to be a Tea Partyer to wish well a revolution\nthat\nwill bring down the \"big important gangs with suits and guns\". That\nsounds\nlike the communist/anarchist G-20 protesters in Toronto." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree. Those protesters are equally pro-gun control. When was the\nlast time you saw MoveOn.org and its ilk urge the expiry of the\nassault weapons ban? Who are gnashing their teeth over the recent\nSupreme Court decision but the same general set of liberals that worry\nabout climate change and evil multinationals? And I mentioned the\nstory that was just about the debasement of money - when was the last\ntime you saw liberals worry about the coinage? (From reading the _New\nYork Times_ opeds, their chief concern seems to be what rate of\ndebasement/inflation is best for economic growth.)\n\nThese aren't generic SF/libertarian fears.\n\nOn Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Jerry Friedman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Gwern is telling us that a story in /Starwater Strains/, which I\nhaven't read, depicts a future tyranny as disarming the public. Lots of\npeople have written dystopias without ever mentioning laws on weapon\nownership." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 2:18 AM, Rebecca Bushong-Taylor\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe this is true. Gene has told me that when they were younger,\nhe\nand Rosemary would regularly practice throwing knives, in part as a way\nto\nkeep the kids respectfully in line. He strongly encouraged me to take\nit\nup." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Matthew Keeley\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Great anecdote, and it rather explains the essay on the proper use of\nthrowing knives in Castle of Days..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I too am entertained, but also a little perplexed. With Robert Jordan,\nwho so far as I am aware has never thrown a knife in his life, the\nbooks are full of knife throwers. (In _Wheel of Time_, knife-throwing\nseems to be a standard skill, akin to swimming - it's more surprising\nwhen a character *can't* do it.) But with Wolfe, who is quite\nknowledgeable, knife-throwers are very rare. Offhand, I can't think of\none!\n\nI guess we could say that SF and fantasy writers write what they don't\nknow...\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9cdb2069163bd9b38c5586c68f62c4b2.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-08T10:56:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't actually know that Wolfe was a knife guy.\n\nDoesn't surprise me even a little.\n\nAll the good guys are knife guys.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But with Wolfe, who is quite\nknowledgeable, knife-throwers are very rare. Offhand, I can't think of\none!\n\nCan only think of one, offhand: Kypris-in-Chenille, in the manteion with\nSilk and Remora, throwing Musk's knife." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C35C06E.8050108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-08T12:11:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You do have the duel with the avern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\n\nOn Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Gwern Branwen > wrote:\n\n But with Wolfe, who is quite\n knowledgeable, knife-throwers are very rare. Offhand, I can't think of\n one!\n\nCan only think of one, offhand: Kypris-in-Chenille, in the manteion \nwith Silk and Remora, throwing Musk's knife.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-08T21:00:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics Of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nI too am entertained, but also a little perplexed. With Robert Jordan,\nwho so far as I am aware has never thrown a knife in his life, the\nbooks are full of knife throwers. (In _Wheel of Time_, knife-throwing\nseems to be a standard skill, akin to swimming - it's more surprising\nwhen a character *can't* do it.) But with Wolfe, who is quite\nknowledgeable, knife-throwers are very rare. Offhand, I can't think of\none!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The avern duel is pretty knife-throwy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C3BBB5E.3010408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T01:03:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C347DF9.70300@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, that's definitely it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn 07/07/2010 07:19 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is that, Adam? It's so familiar, but Google fails me.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 07/06/2010 10:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I actually have information.\n\nWhat information would you like?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"FOURTEEN!\" shouted the Humbug, always eager to be first with the \nwrong answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's _The Phantom Tollbooth_, but from memory, so it's probably \nincorrect.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1374421769-1278983096-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1468928574-@bda615.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-07-13T01:04:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "<4C3BBB5E.3010408@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More Phantom Toll booth references please!!\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\nDate: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:03:26 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Politics of Gene Wolfe\n\nNo, that's definitely it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn 07/07/2010 07:19 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is that, Adam? It's so familiar, but Google fails me.\n\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 07/06/2010 10:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I actually have information.\n\nWhat information would you like?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"FOURTEEN!\" shouted the Humbug, always eager to be first with the \nwrong answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's _The Phantom Tollbooth_, but from memory, so it's probably \nincorrect.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100707-1, 07/07/2010\nTested on: 7/7/2010 6:39:54 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" } ] } ] }