Cumaeans

Tim My assumption---or rationalization---has always been that the Cumaean was an alien of a different sort than the Inhumi. Or else just a being of power---she is named after a witch out of the New Testament, after all. The faces and lack of wings or any serious attempt to disguise herself lead me to that. Beyond that, I dunno. It's possible Wolfe hadn't worked out the details yet. Who would the thing feed on? I also have always assumed that the great toothy butterfly-creature Severian sees flying through the pages of Father Inire's mirror book was an Inhumu. Is there any consensus on that? Was it Tzadkiel?

David, No; the Cumaean is not named for a witch out of the New Testament. Rather, she is named for the priestess-prophetess of Apollo at Cumae. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumaean_Sybil As such, she might well be a "being of power." I had concluded (assumed?) that she was of the same order of being as Father Inire.

aha! Thanks. I never could figure out what that witch had to do with anything. Of course, what do we know of Father Inire?

And her rod looks like the Rod of Asclepius.

No inhumi. It was Tzadkiel. "And it was pleasant indeed to sit upon that bank, occasionally refreshing my laboring tongue with the cold, clean water of the brook, and recount to Tzadkiel how I had seen her first between the pages of Father Inire's book, and how I had helped to capture her aboard her own ship, and how she had been male and called herself Zak, and how she had cared for me when I was injured." (URTH, chap. XL, p.-283) -Roy

Thanks for that! On the Cumaean I always think it is great that Wolfe introduces these beings with various powers but doesn't bother chasing them down, explaining them, etc. They are accepted as part of the milieu and the reader can get on with it. But yeah, it would have been ambitious indeed had it been an Inhumu, I don't know how many of the details of the Inhumu Wolfe had in mind when writing the original series, nevermind BOTLS and BOTSS! On the fact that it was Tzadkiel, I think Wolfe often lays down these details without necessarily following them up. Then 5 books (in his good time) later you get a pay-off. Wonderful! 5th pass through BOTSS and I am still only getting to grips with some of the details in there. May have been mentioned here before but has anyone seen the film "Primer"? All about time loops and whatnot, it is not amazing but a fan of Wolfe may enjoy untangling the various strands laid down. ____________________________ ____________________________ David Stockhoff wrote: >> I also have always assumed that the great toothy butterfly-creature Severian sees flying through the pages of Father Inire's mirror book was an Inhumu. Is there any consensus on that? Was it Tzadkiel?<< Roy C. Lackey wrote: No inhumi. It was Tzadkiel. "And it was pleasant indeed to sit upon that bank, occasionally refreshing my laboring tongue with the cold, clean water of the brook, and recount to Tzadkiel how I had seen her first between the pages of Father Inire's book, and how I had helped to capture her aboard her own ship, and how she had been male and called herself Zak, and how she had cared for me when I was injured." (URTH, chap. XL, p.-283) ************************************************************************************************ Find out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie <http://www.bankofscotland.ie> The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. Bank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2 ****************************************************************************************************

It is a truly remarkable film. You have to pay attention. .

Anyone catch "Time Crimes'?? ???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624 ???? Skype? stuart.hamm myspace.com/stuhamm ? ??? stuarthamm.net --- On Fri, 2/6/09, brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

It is a truly remarkable film. You have to pay attention. .

Up until I saw it the film with the best thought out timeline I had seen had to be Back to the Future. I know it may seem like a kid's film but they really thought through their timelines. While we are on the subject of films that tie in with Wolfe, did anyone think of the short story EyeBeEm when watching the Spielberg film AI? I know alot of people hated that film but I thought it was great! And such a grim ending (especially for Spielberg!). ________________________ ________________________ brunians at brunians.org

It is a truly remarkable film. You have to pay attention. ************************************************************************************************ Find out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie <http://www.bankofscotland.ie> The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. Bank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2 ****************************************************************************************************

I thought the winged creature in the book was more angelic-looking than lepidopterous. I really don't remember it being "toothy". There was a predatory butterfly sort of creature Severian encounters on Tzadkiel's ship. Perhaps there was a mix-up of these two? I am of the view that Father Inire, as an ancient god of the arts (Apollo)/alien analog, appears in various guises throughout the story, mostly as monkeys or monkey-like and/or artsy human characters such as Fechin, Isangoma, the boatman, the cowled cenobite, the masked jungle guide and perhaps Rudesind. If the Cumaean is Inire's fellow analog, ancient god of medicine/alien I expect her also to have an animal alter ego and to appear in other guises. Aside from an incidental snake here and there, her most likely alter egos would be the old leech/pedophile and Ceryx as they are all obsessed with raising the dead. Her attraction to young men could be a parallel to Inire's obsession with young women. (so many greek gods seemed to share the same sort of pedophilia) Moreover the mythical Cumaean Sybil had requested long life (1000 years) from Apollo in exchange for her virginity (when she reneged on the deal, he let her live but shrivel). Apollo is, of course, also associated with prophesy. Also, Ceryx means "herald" and the Cumaean Sybil was known as an early herald of Christ.

Virgil's Fourth Eclogue, which contains the Sybil's supposed prophesy of Christ, also praises Apollo. Severian has as much Apollo imagery around him as Christ imagery, so the reference may have been especially tempting.

You're right: *As he spoke, something shaped itself in shining air above the open pages. It was neither a woman nor a butterfly, but it partook of both, and just as we know when we look at the painted figure of a mountain in the background of some picture that it is in reality as huge as an island, so I knew that I saw the thing only from far off---its wings beat, I think, against the proton winds of space, and all Urth might have been a mote disturbed by their motion. Then as I had seen it, so it saw me, much as the androgyne a moment before had seen the swirls and loops of writing on the steel through his glass. It paused and turned to me and opened its wings that I might observe them. They were marked with eyes.*

Also, is this Father Inire? His tone betrayed him as much as Thecla's thoughts. I wanted to kneel, but he clapped his hands, and a bent little man slipped silently into the room. He wore a cowled habit like a cenobite's. The Autarch spoke to him, something I was too distracted to understand. Doesn't resemble the Cumaean. Nor do the Cunaean's faces resemble Tzadkiel's eyes, though they are suggestively similar, I guess. Incidentally, as far as Inire's name: /present active/ **ineo-**, /present infinitive/ *ini-re <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inire#Latin>*, /perfect active/ *inii- <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inii#Latin>*, /supine/ *initum <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/initum#Latin>*. (irregular <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/irregular>) 1. I enter <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enter>, go <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/go> into <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/into>. 2. I begin <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/begin> (an activity, enterprise, business) And I like the Cumaean's herald-of-Christ-connection. She is present "now" but is associated with Apu-Punchau ...

David S. writes:

Well I have always thought this was the most obvious incarnation of Father Inire- the physical description matches and they are in Father Inire's portion of the House Absolute. The Cumaean seems to be more of an outdoor dweller. The other little, bent monkey-like and/or artistic guys are a bit harder to identify as Inire but it helps make sense to the story for me if they are. As I see it, the old Autarch with his multiple roles in Commonwealth society is a weak imitation of Father Inire, whose shape changing ability allows greater diversity in his various roles. Likewise Father Inire is a weaker version of Tzadkiel, who has even greater shape changing ability and multiple roles to be played. -bsharp