{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5334", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5334, "subject": "Cumaeans", "messages": 14, "voices": 9, "first": "2009-02-05T21:26:29+00:00", "last": "2009-02-10T16:30:04+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<498B5985.1030001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-02-05T21:26:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim\n\nMy assumption---or rationalization---has always been that the Cumaean was an alien of a different sort than the Inhumi. Or else just a being of power---she is named after a witch out of the New Testament, after all. The faces and lack of wings or any serious attempt to disguise herself lead me to that. \n\nBeyond that, I dunno. It's possible Wolfe hadn't worked out the details yet. Who would the thing feed on?\n\nI also have always assumed that the great toothy butterfly-creature Severian sees flying through the pages of Father Inire's mirror book was an Inhumu. Is there any consensus on that? Was it Tzadkiel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 11:49:40 -0000\nFrom: \"O'Donnell, Tim \\(BOSI\\)\" \nSubject: (urth) Wolfean theologies\nTo: \nMessage-ID:\n\t<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B695 at BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nSonOfWitz, as a long standing member of the Church of Odin (I am due to receive my celebratory pair of imitation ravens this weekend in the\nValhalla Restaurant and Public House) I take serious offence to your remarks on Satanists. While the Odinists broke away from the Satanists in\nthe great schism of 4003 BC (on our first anniversary) in what has since been described as the \"Dirty Hanky\" scandal (this pivoted on whether cleanliness\nwas indeed next to godliness - an issue that occupied our immoral philosophers for some time) I still recognise myself as belonging to the greater Satanic church\nand so would like you to retract what you said.\n\nSeriously though, I have my private beliefs which I would prefer not to discuss and I have some knowledge of various religions (most particularly Catholicism) having\nbecome very interested in the topic in my early 20s. But I recognise the difference between what I believe and what I understand that other people believe. Instead of \narguing this out with people on the list can we not leave the \"Wolfe as Catholic writer\" vs \"Wolfe as writer with many influences, many of them Catholic\" to the realm of\n\"Are Blue/Green Urth/Lune?\" in the camp of intractable Lupine questions? \n\nI would prefer to discuss other items than to argue about beliefs and disappear into tangents on the Church in the world today. \n\nSo in that spirit I asked about the following passage in BOTNS a while back and there were no takers:\n\nAs I had suspected, the Cumaean was not a woman at all; yet neither was she one\nof the horrors I had beheld in the gardens of the House Absolute. Something\nsleekly reptilian coiled about the glowing rod. I looked for the head but found\nnone, though each of the patternings on the reptile's back was a face, and the\neyes of each face seemed lost in rapture.\nDorcas woke while I looked from one to another.\n\n\nI have long hoped that this was an Inhumu (Inhumi?) on Urth in the time of Severian. \nReasons it is possible:\n*\tReptilian in nature\n*\tElement of Soul Travel seems to be occurring here\n\nReasons it may not be an inhumi:\n*\tThe description of the faces on the reptile's back does not tie in with BOTSS, unless it is the faces of the Inhumu's victims?\n\nAny takers?\n\n\n\n\n\n************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370902051342y6909c26bubd20b528f961aba0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-05T21:42:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<498B5985.1030001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David,\n\nNo; the Cumaean is _not_ named for a witch out of the New Testament. Rather,\nshe is named for the priestess-prophetess of Apollo at Cumae.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumaean_Sybil\n\nAs such, she might well be a \"being of power.\" I had concluded (assumed?)\nthat she was of the same order of being as Father Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 1:26 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nTim\n\nMy assumption---or rationalization---has always been that the Cumaean was an\nalien of a different sort than the Inhumi. Or else just a being of\npower---she is named after a witch out of the New Testament, after all. The\nfaces and lack of wings or any serious attempt to disguise herself lead me\nto that.\nBeyond that, I dunno. It's possible Wolfe hadn't worked out the details yet.\nWho would the thing feed on?\n\nI also have always assumed that the great toothy butterfly-creature Severian\nsees flying through the pages of Father Inire's mirror book was an Inhumu.\nIs there any consensus on that? Was it Tzadkiel?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<498B6555.90300@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-02-05T22:16:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370902051342y6909c26bubd20b528f961aba0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "aha! Thanks. I never could figure out what that witch had to do with anything.\n\nOf course, what do we know of Father Inire?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:42:37 -0800\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Cumaeans\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID:\n\t<1f7617370902051342y6909c26bubd20b528f961aba0 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nDavid,\n\nNo; the Cumaean is _not_ named for a witch out of the New Testament. Rather,\nshe is named for the priestess-prophetess of Apollo at Cumae.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumaean_Sybil\n\nAs such, she might well be a \"being of power.\" I had concluded (assumed?)\nthat she was of the same order of being as Father Inire.\n\nOn Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 1:26 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tim\n\nMy assumption---or rationalization---has always been that the Cumaean was an\nalien of a different sort than the Inhumi. Or else just a being of\npower---she is named after a witch out of the New Testament, after all. The\nfaces and lack of wings or any serious attempt to disguise herself lead me\nto that.\nBeyond that, I dunno. It's possible Wolfe hadn't worked out the details yet.\nWho would the thing feed on?\n\nI also have always assumed that the great toothy butterfly-creature Severian\nsees flying through the pages of Father Inire's mirror book was an Inhumu.\nIs there any consensus on that? Was it Tzadkiel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n-- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0902052116n5de9ba43m43554fdc18fe7aa5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-06T05:16:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370902051342y6909c26bubd20b528f961aba0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And her rod looks like the Rod of Asclepius." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid,\n\nNo; the Cumaean is _not_ named for a witch out of the New Testament. Rather,\nshe is named for the priestess-prophetess of Apollo at Cumae.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumaean_Sybil\n\nAs such, she might well be a \"being of power.\" I had concluded (assumed?)\nthat she was of the same order of being as Father Inire." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000d01c98824$346e16c0$b5cc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-02-06T06:28:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<498B5985.1030001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nI also have always assumed that the great toothy butterfly-creature\nSeverian sees flying through the pages of Father Inire's mirror book was an\nInhumu. Is there any consensus on that? Was it Tzadkiel?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No inhumi. It was Tzadkiel.\n\n\"And it was pleasant indeed to sit upon that bank, occasionally refreshing\nmy laboring tongue with the cold, clean water of the brook, and recount to\nTzadkiel how I had seen her first between the pages of Father Inire's book,\nand how I had helped to capture her aboard her own ship, and how she had\nbeen male and called herself Zak, and how she had cared for me when I was\ninjured.\" (URTH, chap. XL, p.-283)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B6BD@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2009-02-06T14:17:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<000d01c98824$346e16c0$b5cc4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for that!\n\nOn the Cumaean I always think it is great that Wolfe introduces these beings with various powers but doesn't bother chasing them down, explaining them, etc.\nThey are accepted as part of the milieu and the reader can get on with it. But yeah, it would have been ambitious indeed had it been an Inhumu, I don't know how many of the details of \nthe Inhumu Wolfe had in mind when writing the original series, nevermind BOTLS and BOTSS!\n\nOn the fact that it was Tzadkiel, I think Wolfe often lays down these details without necessarily following them up. Then 5 books (in his good time) later you get a pay-off. Wonderful!\n5th pass through BOTSS and I am still only getting to grips with some of the details in there.\n\nMay have been mentioned here before but has anyone seen the film \"Primer\"?\nAll about time loops and whatnot, it is not amazing but a fan of Wolfe may enjoy untangling the various strands laid down.\n____________________________\n____________________________\nDavid Stockhoff wrote: >> I also have always assumed that the great toothy butterfly-creature Severian sees flying through the pages of Father Inire's mirror book was an Inhumu. Is there any consensus on that? Was it Tzadkiel?<<\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:\n No inhumi. It was Tzadkiel. \"And it was pleasant indeed to sit upon that bank, occasionally refreshing my laboring tongue with the cold, clean water of the brook, and recount to Tzadkiel how I had seen her first between the pages of Father Inire's book, and how I had helped to capture her aboard her own ship, and how she had been male and called herself Zak, and how she had cared for me when I was injured.\" (URTH, chap. XL, p.-283) \n\n\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8489.67.142.130.12.1233930005.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-02-06T14:20:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B6BD@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "May have been mentioned here before but has anyone seen the film \"Primer\"?\nAll about time loops and whatnot, it is not amazing but a fan of Wolfe may\nenjoy untangling the various strands laid down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a truly remarkable film. You have to pay attention.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<434362.13533.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-02-06T14:23:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<8489.67.142.130.12.1233930005.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyone catch \"Time Crimes'??\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Fri, 2/6/09, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) Cumaeans\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nCc: urth at urth.net\nDate: Friday, February 6, 2009, 6:20 AM\nMay have been mentioned here before but has anyone seen the film\n\"Primer\"?\nAll about time loops and whatnot, it is not amazing but a fan of Wolfe may\nenjoy untangling the various strands laid down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a truly remarkable film. You have to pay attention.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B6C4@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2009-02-06T14:34:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<434362.13533.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Up until I saw it the film with the best thought out timeline I had seen had to be Back to the Future. I know it may seem like a kid's film but they really thought through their timelines.\nWhile we are on the subject of films that tie in with Wolfe, did anyone think of the short story EyeBeEm when watching the Spielberg film AI?\nI know alot of people hated that film but I thought it was great! And such a grim ending (especially for Spielberg!).\n________________________\n________________________\nbrunians at brunians.org " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "May have been mentioned here before but has anyone seen the film \"Primer\"?\nAll about time loops and whatnot, it is not amazing but a fan of Wolfe may\nenjoy untangling the various strands laid down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a truly remarkable film. You have to pay attention.\n\n\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8545. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-06T17:53:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA01F6B6C4@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the winged creature in the book was more angelic-looking than lepidopterous. \nI really don't remember it being \"toothy\". There was a predatory butterfly sort of creature\nSeverian encounters on Tzadkiel's ship. Perhaps there was a mix-up of these two?\n \nI am of the view that Father Inire, as an ancient god of the arts (Apollo)/alien analog, \nappears in various guises throughout the story, mostly as monkeys or monkey-like and/or \nartsy human characters such as Fechin, Isangoma, the boatman, the cowled cenobite, the masked\njungle guide and perhaps Rudesind.\n \nIf the Cumaean is Inire's fellow analog, ancient god of medicine/alien I expect her also to have\nan animal alter ego and to appear in other guises. Aside from an incidental snake here and there,\nher most likely alter egos would be the old leech/pedophile and Ceryx as they are all obsessed with \nraising the dead. Her attraction to young men could be a parallel to Inire's obsession with young\nwomen. (so many greek gods seemed to share the same sort of pedophilia)\n \nMoreover the mythical Cumaean Sybil had requested long life (1000 years) from Apollo in exchange for\nher virginity (when she reneged on the deal, he let her live but shrivel). Apollo is, of course, also \nassociated with prophesy. Also, Ceryx means \"herald\" and the Cumaean Sybil was known as an early \nherald of Christ.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0902061004t7d6d58f7w600b4e94b93662d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-06T18:04:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 12:53 PM, b sharp wrote:\n\nI am of the view that Father Inire, as an ancient god of the arts\n(Apollo)/alien analog,\nappears in various guises throughout the story, mostly as monkeys or\nmonkey-like and/or\nartsy human characters such as Fechin, Isangoma, the boatman, the cowled\ncenobite, the masked\njungle guide and perhaps Rudesind.\n\nIf the Cumaean is Inire's fellow analog, ancient god of medicine/alien I\nexpect her also to have\nan animal alter ego and to appear in other guises. Aside from an incidental\nsnake here and there,\nher most likely alter egos would be the old leech/pedophile and Ceryx as\nthey are all obsessed with\nraising the dead. Her attraction to young men could be a parallel to\nInire's obsession with young\nwomen. (so many greek gods seemed to share the same sort of pedophilia)\n\nMoreover the mythical Cumaean Sybil had requested long life (1000 years)\nfrom Apollo in exchange for\nher virginity (when she reneged on the deal, he let her live but shrivel).\nApollo is, of course, also\nassociated with prophesy. Also, Ceryx means \"herald\" and the Cumaean Sybil\nwas known as an early\nherald of Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Virgil's Fourth Eclogue, which contains the Sybil's supposed prophesy of\nChrist, also praises Apollo. Severian has as much Apollo imagery around him\nas Christ imagery, so the reference may have been especially tempting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nWindows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.\nhttp://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_022009\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<498D9AD3.6060102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-02-07T14:29:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0902061004t7d6d58f7w600b4e94b93662d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right:\n\n*As he spoke, something shaped itself in shining air above the\nopen pages. It was neither a woman nor a butterfly, but it partook of both,\nand just as we know when we look at the painted figure of a mountain in the\nbackground of some picture that it is in reality as huge as an island, so I\nknew that I saw the thing only from far off---its wings beat, I think, against the\nproton winds of space, and all Urth might have been a mote disturbed by their\nmotion. Then as I had seen it, so it saw me, much as the androgyne a moment\nbefore had seen the swirls and loops of writing on the steel through his\nglass. It paused and turned to me and opened its wings that I might observe them.\nThey were marked with eyes.*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 12:53:00 -0500\nFrom: b sharp \nSubject: (urth) Cumaeans\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"Windows-1252\"\n\n\nI thought the winged creature in the book was more angelic-looking than lepidopterous. \nI really don't remember it being \"toothy\". There was a predatory butterfly sort of creature\nSeverian encounters on Tzadkiel's ship. Perhaps there was a mix-up of these two?\n \nI am of the view that Father Inire, as an ancient god of the arts (Apollo)/alien analog, \nappears in various guises throughout the story, mostly as monkeys or monkey-like and/or \nartsy human characters such as Fechin, Isangoma, the boatman, the cowled cenobite, the masked\njungle guide and perhaps Rudesind.\n \nIf the Cumaean is Inire's fellow analog, ancient god of medicine/alien I expect her also to have\nan animal alter ego and to appear in other guises. Aside from an incidental snake here and there,\nher most likely alter egos would be the old leech/pedophile and Ceryx as they are all obsessed with \nraising the dead. Her attraction to young men could be a parallel to Inire's obsession with young\nwomen. (so many greek gods seemed to share the same sort of pedophilia)\n \nMoreover the mythical Cumaean Sybil had requested long life (1000 years) from Apollo in exchange for\nher virginity (when she reneged on the deal, he let her live but shrivel). Apollo is, of course, also \nassociated with prophesy. Also, Ceryx means \"herald\" and the Cumaean Sybil was known as an early \nherald of Christ.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<498DA1E9.2060800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-02-07T14:59:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<498D9AD3.6060102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, is this Father Inire?\n\n*His tone betrayed him as much as Thecla's thoughts. I wanted to kneel, but he\nclapped his hands, and a bent little man slipped silently into the room. He wore\na cowled habit like a cenobite's. The Autarch spoke to him, something I was too\ndistracted to understand.*\n\nDoesn't resemble the Cumaean. Nor do the Cunaean's faces resemble Tzadkiel's eyes, though they are suggestively similar, I guess.\n\n\n\n\nIncidentally, as far as Inire's name:\n\n/present active/ **ineo-**, /present infinitive/ *ini-re \n*, /perfect active/ *inii- \n*, /supine/ *initum \n*. (irregular \n)\n\n 1. I enter , go\n into\n .\n 2. I begin (an activity,\n enterprise, business)\n\n\nAnd I like the Cumaean's herald-of-Christ-connection. She is present \"now\" but is associated with Apu-Punchau ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 12:53:00 -0500\nFrom: b sharp \nSubject: (urth) Cumaeans\nTo: \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"Windows-1252\"\n\n\nI thought the winged creature in the book was more angelic-looking than lepidopterous. \nI really don't remember it being \"toothy\". There was a predatory butterfly sort of creature\nSeverian encounters on Tzadkiel's ship. Perhaps there was a mix-up of these two?\n \nI am of the view that Father Inire, as an ancient god of the arts (Apollo)/alien analog, \nappears in various guises throughout the story, mostly as monkeys or monkey-like and/or \nartsy human characters such as Fechin, Isangoma, the boatman, the cowled cenobite, the masked\njungle guide and perhaps Rudesind.\n \nIf the Cumaean is Inire's fellow analog, ancient god of medicine/alien I expect her also to have\nan animal alter ego and to appear in other guises. Aside from an incidental snake here and there,\nher most likely alter egos would be the old leech/pedophile and Ceryx as they are all obsessed with \nraising the dead. Her attraction to young men could be a parallel to Inire's obsession with young\nwomen. (so many greek gods seemed to share the same sort of pedophilia)\n \nMoreover the mythical Cumaean Sybil had requested long life (1000 years) from Apollo in exchange for\nher virginity (when she reneged on the deal, he let her live but shrivel). Apollo is, of course, also \nassociated with prophesy. Also, Ceryx means \"herald\" and the Cumaean Sybil was known as an early \nherald of Christ.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-10T16:30:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cumaeans", "in_reply_to": "<498DA1E9.2060800@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David S. writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, is this Father Inire? *His tone betrayed him as much as Thecla's thoughts.\nI wanted to kneel, but he clapped his hands, and a bent little man slipped silently\ninto the room. He wore a cowled habit like a cenobite's. The Autarch spoke to him,\nsomething I was too distracted to understand.* \nDoesn't resemble the Cumaean. Nor do the Cumaean's faces resemble Tzadkiel's eyes" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell I have always thought this was the most obvious incarnation of Father Inire- the\nphysical description matches and they are in Father Inire's portion of the House\nAbsolute. The Cumaean seems to be more of an outdoor dweller. The other little, bent\nmonkey-like and/or artistic guys are a bit harder to identify as Inire but it helps make\nsense to the story for me if they are.\n \nAs I see it, the old Autarch with his multiple roles in Commonwealth society is a weak\nimitation of Father Inire, whose shape changing ability allows greater diversity in his\nvarious roles. Likewise Father Inire is a weaker version of Tzadkiel, who has even greater\nshape changing ability and multiple roles to be played.\n \n-bsharp" } ] } ] }