{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5342", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5342, "subject": "Ravd of Redhall", "messages": 8, "voices": 4, "first": "2009-02-13T15:50:55+00:00", "last": "2009-02-13T21:15:07+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<347455.83098.qm@web36801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Scott Wowra", "address": "swowra at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-02-13T15:50:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ravd of Redhall", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Folks,\nI am new to Urth.net, so my observations are original (to me) and not based on reading your threads (although I have perused them). \n\nI am working on some onomastics of major characters in The Knight. \n\nBelow are speculations of Ravd of Redhall. Any feedback you have is appreciated.\n\nRavd of Redhall\nBackground\nSir Ravd of Redhall appears in Chapter 4 of The Knight. Ravd is a knight in the service of Duke Marder (\"marder\" is German for marten, a solitary carnivore related to the weasel). Able describes Ravd in his list of characters as, \"The best knight I ever saw\" (p. 13). 'Best' probably refers to Ravd's strict adherence to the code of chivalry. \nOnomastics\nThe term \"ravd\" appears to be a variant of \"red\" in Old Norse, which was the language spoken by inhabitants of Scandinavia during the Viking Age [5]. \n\n\"The word / ravd /in the context you mention is just a spelling variant of the colour adjective /rau?r/ m in Old Norse, meaning \"red\". As an anthroponym it refers, in all probability, to the colour of a (male) persons hair.\" (Hagland, personal communication; 2009) \n\nThe epithet \"red\" appears in both Norse Mythology and Arthurian Legend. \n\n1. Norse Mythology. The god Thor possessed red hair and a red beard. The Viking chieftains Erik the Red and Thorstein the Red conquered lands during the Viking Age. \n2. Arthurian Legend. The \"Red Knight\" is an appellation referring to 3 major knights, depending on the source materials, including Percival, Gawain, and Galahad [6]. \nInterpretation\nThe interaction between Able and Ravd in Chapters 4-6 may represent early passages in 'Percival, the Story of the Grail [7] . Percival is a naive lad of 15, ignorant in the code of chivalry. He encounters a group of knights, and is so impressed by them, resolves to become a knight himself. Percival travels to King Arthur's court, but due to his crude clothes, naive manner, and lack of training, is not well received by Arthur's knights. Outside of Arthur's castle, young Percival bests a knight in red armor. Claiming the armor and charger, Percival is knighted and earns the appellation of the Red Knight. \n\nIf Able in some ways represents Percival, the Red Knight, then Ravd of Redhall is the exemplar on which Able models his behavior. \"Ravd of Redhall\" is therefore a clue inserted by Mr. Wolfe to look to the story of the Red Knight for insights into Able's motivations and development. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<365732.61159.qm@web36805.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Scott Wowra", "address": "swowra at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-02-13T15:52:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ravd of Redhall", "in_reply_to": "<347455.83098.qm@web36801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Folks,\nI am new to Urth.net, so my observations are original (to me) and not based on reading your threads (although I have perused them). \n\nI am working on some onomastics of major characters in The Knight. \n\nBelow are speculations of Ravd of Redhall. Any feedback you have is appreciated.\n\nRavd of Redhall\nBackground\nSir Ravd of Redhall appears in Chapter 4 of The Knight. Ravd is a knight in the service of Duke Marder (\"marder\" is German for marten, a solitary carnivore related to the weasel). Able describes Ravd in his list of characters as, \"The best knight I ever saw\" (p. 13). 'Best' probably refers to Ravd's strict adherence to the code of chivalry. \nOnomastics\nThe term \"ravd\" appears to be a variant of \"red\" in Old Norse, which was the language spoken by inhabitants of Scandinavia during the Viking Age [5]. \n\n\"The word / ravd /in the context you mention is just a spelling variant of the colour adjective /rau?r/ m in Old Norse, meaning \"red\". As an anthroponym it refers, in all probability, to the colour of a (male) persons hair.\" (Hagland, personal communication; 2009) \n\nThe epithet \"red\" appears in both Norse Mythology and Arthurian Legend. \n\n1. Norse Mythology. The god Thor possessed red hair and a red beard. The Viking chieftains Erik the Red and Thorstein the Red conquered lands during the Viking Age. \n2. Arthurian Legend. The \"Red Knight\" is an appellation referring to 3 major knights, depending on the source materials, including Percival, Gawain, and Galahad [6]. \nInterpretation\nThe interaction between Able and Ravd in Chapters 4-6 may represent early passages in 'Percival, the Story of the Grail [7]. Percival is a naive lad of 15, ignorant in the code of chivalry. He encounters a group of knights, and is so impressed by them, resolves to become a knight himself. Percival travels to King Arthur's court, but due to his crude clothes, naive manner, and lack of training, is not well received by Arthur's knights. Outside of Arthur's castle, young Percival bests a knight in red armor. Claiming the armor and charger, Percival is knighted and earns the appellation of the Red Knight. \n\nIf Able in some ways represents Percival, the Red Knight, then Ravd of Redhall is the exemplar on which Able models his behavior. \"Ravd of Redhall\" is therefore a clue inserted by Mr. Wolfe to look to the story of the Red Knight for insights into Able's motivations and development. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0902130755g522aab8di5dd81307b340ad48@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-13T15:55:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ravd of Redhall", "in_reply_to": "<347455.83098.qm@web36801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's a Spenser reference as well, and likely a Chesterton reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Scott Wowra wrote:\n Folks,\n\nI am new to Urth.net, so my observations are original (to me) and not based\non reading your threads (although I have perused them).\n\n\n\nI am working on some onomastics of major characters in The Knight.\n\n\n\nBelow are speculations of Ravd of Redhall. Any feedback you have is\nappreciated.\n Ravd of Redhall Background\n\nSir Ravd of Redhall appears in Chapter 4 of *The Knight.* Ravd is a knight\nin the service of Duke Marder (\"marder\" is German for marten, a solitary\ncarnivore related to the weasel). Able describes Ravd in his list of\ncharacters as, \"The best knight I ever saw\" (p. 13). 'Best' probably refers\nto Ravd's strict adherence to the code of chivalry.\n Onomastics\n\nThe term \"ravd\" appears to be a variant of \"red\" in Old Norse, which was\nthe language spoken by inhabitants of Scandinavia during the Viking Age\n[5] .\n\n\n \"The word / ravd /in the context you mention is just a spelling variant\nof the colour adjective /rau?r/ m in Old Norse, meaning \"red\". As an\nanthroponym it refers, in all probability, to the colour of a (male) persons\nhair.\" (Hagland, personal communication; 2009)\n\n\nThe epithet \"red\" appears in both Norse Mythology and Arthurian Legend.\n\n\n 1. Norse Mythology. The god Thor possessed red hair and a red beard. The\nViking chieftains Erik the Red and Thorstein the Red conquered lands during\nthe Viking Age.\n2. Arthurian Legend. The \"Red Knight\" is an appellation referring to 3\nmajor knights, depending on the source materials, including Percival,\nGawain, and Galahad [6] .\n Interpretation\n\nThe interaction between Able and Ravd in Chapters 4-6 may represent early\npassages in *'Percival, the Story of the Grail* [7]. Percival is a naive lad of 15, ignorant in the code of chivalry. He\nencounters a group of knights, and is so impressed by them, resolves to\nbecome a knight himself. Percival travels to King Arthur's court, but due to\nhis crude clothes, naive manner, and lack of training, is not well received\nby Arthur's knights. Outside of Arthur's castle, young Percival bests a\nknight in red armor. Claiming the armor and charger, Percival is knighted\nand earns the appellation of the Red Knight.\n\n\n\nIf Able in some ways represents Percival, the Red Knight, then Ravd of\nRedhall is the exemplar on which Able models his behavior. \"Ravd of Redhall\"\nis therefore a clue inserted by Mr. Wolfe to look to the story of the Red\nKnight for insights into Able's motivations and development.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<290461.44006.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-02-13T16:35:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ravd of Redhall", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0902130755g522aab8di5dd81307b340ad48@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it's a Spenser reference, it's oblique. The Knight of Holiness in the Faerie Queene is called Redcrosse, but he's also St. George. In FQ, he's a young, untested knight who fails repeatedly to live up to his moniker until he learns how to stop being chivalrous (depending on self) and learns to be faithful (depending on God). In FQ, he's more like Able, and Arthur is more like Ravd (from Able's perspective), in terms of representing an ideal of knighthood. Still, the \"Red\" is very telling.\n\nThere's no one named Ravd (or close relative to that sound) that I recall. I wish there was, however. I read Wizard Knight with Spenser in mind, but never caught direct references, or so I thought. It certainly deals with similar terrain, however, both thematically and \"surface\" level. If someone could show me that I missed things, however, I'd be eternally grateful.\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n\n\nI think it's a Spenser reference as well, and likely a Chesterton reference.\n\n\nOn Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Scott Wowra wrote:\n\nFolks,\nI am new to Urth.net, so my observations are original (to me) and not based on reading your threads (although I have perused them). \n \nI am working on some onomastics of major characters in The Knight. \n \nBelow are speculations of Ravd of Redhall. Any feedback you have is appreciated.\n \nRavd of Redhall\nBackground\nSir Ravd of Redhall appears in Chapter 4 of The Knight. Ravd is a knight in the service of Duke Marder (\"marder\" is German for marten, a solitary carnivore related to the weasel). Able describes Ravd in his list of characters as, \"The best knight I ever saw\" (p. 13). 'Best' probably refers to Ravd's strict adherence to the code of chivalry. \nOnomastics\nThe term \"ravd\" appears to be a variant of \"red\" in Old Norse, which was the language spoken by inhabitants of Scandinavia during the Viking Age [5]. \n \n\"The word / ravd /in the context you mention is just a spelling variant of the colour adjective /rau?r/ m in Old Norse, meaning \"red\". As an anthroponym it refers, in all probability, to the colour of a (male) persons hair.\" (Hagland, personal communication; 2009) \n \nThe epithet \"red\" appears in both Norse Mythology and Arthurian Legend. \n \n1. Norse Mythology. The god Thor possessed red hair and a red beard. The Viking chieftains Erik the Red and Thorstein the Red conquered lands during the Viking Age. \n2. Arthurian Legend. The \"Red Knight\" is an appellation referring to 3 major knights, depending on the source materials, including Percival, Gawain, and Galahad [6]. \nInterpretation\nThe interaction between Able and Ravd in Chapters 4-6 may represent early passages in 'Percival, the Story of the Grail [7] . Percival is a naive lad of 15, ignorant in the code of chivalry. He encounters a group of knights, and is so impressed by them, resolves to become a knight himself. Percival travels to King Arthur's court, but due to his crude clothes, naive manner, and lack of training, is not well received by Arthur's knights. Outside of Arthur's castle, young Percival bests a knight in red armor. Claiming the armor and charger, Percival is knighted and earns the appellation of the Red Knight. \n \nIf Able in some ways represents Percival, the Red Knight, then Ravd of Redhall is the exemplar on which Able models his behavior. \"Ravd of Redhall\" is therefore a clue inserted by Mr. Wolfe to look to the story of the Red Knight for insights into Able's motivations and development. \n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0902130922g1c2b7f33kc6ddbaddf2820613@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-13T17:22:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ravd of Redhall", "in_reply_to": "<290461.44006.qm@web37603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, \"Spenser reference\" may have been too confident. I think the intended\nmeaning originates with Spenser, but does not end there.\n\nI think that although Redcrosse has the plot function you describe,\n\"Red-cross Knight\" has, through Tennyson, a more general significance as a\nknight who exemplifies the chivalric ideal (\"A red-cross knight forever\nkneeled/to a Lady in his shield\" in \"The Lady of Shalott\"). The \"red\"\nwithout the \"cross\" here could signify Ravd's role of inspiring Able to\nfollow the path of *pre-Christian *chivalric virtue, which I take as sort of\nthe point of the story.\n\nChesterton, in *Orthodoxy*, uses red and white, the colors of the shield of\nSt. George (i.e., the Redcrosse Knight) to symbolize the Christian balance\nbetween opposing virtues:\n\n\" It *is* true that the historic Church has at once emphasised celibacy and\nemphasised the family; has at once (if one may put it so) been fiercely for\nhaving children and fiercely for not having children. It has kept them side\nby side like two strong colours, red and white, like the red and white upon\nthe shield of St. George. It has always had a healthy hatred of pink. It\nhates that combination of two colours which is the feeble expedient of the\nphilosophers. It hates that evolution of black into white which is\ntantamount to a dirty gray. In fact, the whole theory of the Church on\nvirginity might be symbolized in the statement that white is a colour: not\nmerely the absence of a colour.\"\n\nAgain, there's no \"cross\" here, and no \"white\" in a knight named Sir Red of\nRedhall. Thus the virtues that Ravd represents, by my reading are the more\npassionate, \"red\" Christian virtues, undiluted by mixture with the \"white\"\nChristian virtues but also not restrained by coexisting with them. So we\nsee Able sometimes acting like kind of a jerk--he has some virtues, but he\ndoes not represent their unity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n If it's a Spenser reference, it's oblique. The Knight of Holiness in the\nFaerie Queene is called Redcrosse, but he's also St. George. In FQ, he's a\nyoung, untested knight who fails repeatedly to live up to his moniker until\nhe learns how to stop being chivalrous (depending on self) and learns to be\nfaithful (depending on God). In FQ, he's more like Able, and Arthur is more\nlike Ravd (from Able's perspective), in terms of representing an ideal of\nknighthood. Still, the \"Red\" is very telling.\n\nThere's no one named Ravd (or close relative to that sound) that I recall.\nI wish there was, however. I read Wizard Knight with Spenser in mind, but\nnever caught direct references, or so I thought. It certainly deals with\nsimilar terrain, however, both thematically and \"surface\" level. If someone\ncould show me that I missed things, however, I'd be eternally grateful.\n\nCraig\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* John Watkins \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Friday, February 13, 2009 9:55:09 AM\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Ravd of Redhall\n\nI think it's a Spenser reference as well, and likely a Chesterton\nreference.\n\nOn Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Scott Wowra wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Folks,\n\nI am new to Urth.net , so my observations are original\n(to me) and not based on reading your threads (although I have perused\nthem).\n\n\n\nI am working on some onomastics of major characters in The Knight.\n\n\n\nBelow are speculations of Ravd of Redhall. Any feedback you have is\nappreciated.\n Ravd of Redhall Background\n\nSir Ravd of Redhall appears in Chapter 4 of *The Knight.* Ravd is a\nknight in the service of Duke Marder (\"marder\" is German for marten, a\nsolitary carnivore related to the weasel). Able describes Ravd in his list\nof characters as, \"The best knight I ever saw\" (p. 13). 'Best' probably\nrefers to Ravd's strict adherence to the code of chivalry.\n Onomastics\n\nThe term \"ravd\" appears to be a variant of \"red\" in Old Norse, which was\nthe language spoken by inhabitants of Scandinavia during the Viking Age\n[5] .\n\n\n \"The word / ravd /in the context you mention is just a spelling variant\nof the colour adjective /rau?r/ m in Old Norse, meaning \"red\". As an\nanthroponym it refers, in all probability, to the colour of a (male) persons\nhair.\" (Hagland, personal communication; 2009)\n\n\nThe epithet \"red\" appears in both Norse Mythology and Arthurian Legend.\n\n\n 1. Norse Mythology. The god Thor possessed red hair and a red beard. The\nViking chieftains Erik the Red and Thorstein the Red conquered lands during\nthe Viking Age.\n2. Arthurian Legend. The \"Red Knight\" is an appellation referring to 3\nmajor knights, depending on the source materials, including Percival,\nGawain, and Galahad [6] .\n Interpretation\n\nThe interaction between Able and Ravd in Chapters 4-6 may represent early\npassages in *'Percival, the Story of the Grail* [7]. Percival is a naive lad of 15, ignorant in the code of chivalry. He\nencounters a group of knights, and is so impressed by them, resolves to\nbecome a knight himself. Percival travels to King Arthur's court, but due to\nhis crude clothes, naive manner, and lack of training, is not well received\nby Arthur's knights. Outside of Arthur's castle, young Percival bests a\nknight in red armor. Claiming the armor and charger, Percival is knighted\nand earns the appellation of the Red Knight.\n\n\n\nIf Able in some ways represents Percival, the Red Knight, then Ravd of\nRedhall is the exemplar on which Able models his behavior. \"Ravd of Redhall\"\nis therefore a clue inserted by Mr. Wolfe to look to the story of the Red\nKnight for insights into Able's motivations and development.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<267175.46430.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-02-13T17:48:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ravd of Redhall", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0902130922g1c2b7f33kc6ddbaddf2820613@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is wonderful! When I get home, I'll have to pull out WK and see if there happens to be a lot of \"white\" associated with Michael. I just can't recall.\n\n\n\n\n\n\nYes, \"Spenser reference\" may have been too confident. I think the intended meaning originates with Spenser, but does not end there.\n \nI think that although Redcrosse has the plot function you describe, \"Red-cross Knight\" has, through Tennyson, a more general significance as a knight who exemplifies the chivalric ideal (\"A red-cross knight forever kneeled/to a Lady in his shield\" in \"The Lady of Shalott\"). The \"red\" without the \"cross\" here could signify Ravd's role of inspiring Able to follow the path of pre-Christian chivalric virtue, which I take as sort of the point of the story.\n \nChesterton, in Orthodoxy, uses red and white, the colors of the shield of St. George (i.e., the Redcrosse Knight) to symbolize the Christian balance between opposing virtues:\n \n\" It is true that the historic Church has at once emphasised celibacy and emphasised the family; has at once (if one may put it so) been fiercely for having children and fiercely for not having children. It has kept them side by side like two strong colours, red and white, like the red and white upon the shield of St. George. It has always had a healthy hatred of pink. It hates that combination of two colours which is the feeble expedient of the philosophers. It hates that evolution of black into white which is tantamount to a dirty gray. In fact, the whole theory of the Church on virginity might be symbolized in the statement that white is a colour: not merely the absence of a colour.\"\n \nAgain, there's no \"cross\" here, and no \"white\" in a knight named Sir Red of Redhall. Thus the virtues that Ravd represents, by my reading are the more passionate, \"red\" Christian virtues, undiluted by mixture with the \"white\" Christian virtues but also not restrained by coexisting with them. So we see Able sometimes acting like kind of a jerk--he has some virtues, but he does not represent their unity.\n \nOn Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nIf it's a Spenser reference, it's oblique. The Knight of Holiness in the Faerie Queene is called Redcrosse, but he's also St. George. In FQ, he's a young, untested knight who fails repeatedly to live up to his moniker until he learns how to stop being chivalrous (depending on self) and learns to be faithful (depending on God). In FQ, he's more like Able, and Arthur is more like Ravd (from Able's perspective), in terms of representing an ideal of knighthood. Still, the \"Red\" is very telling.\n\nThere's no one named Ravd (or close relative to that sound) that I recall. I wish there was, however. I read Wizard Knight with Spenser in mind, but never caught direct references, or so I thought. It certainly deals with similar terrain, however, both thematically and \"surface\" level. If someone could show me that I missed things, however, I'd be eternally grateful.\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n\n \n\nI think it's a Spenser reference as well, and likely a Chesterton reference.\n\n\nOn Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Scott Wowra wrote:\n\nFolks,\nI am new to Urth.net, so my observations are original (to me) and not based on reading your threads (although I have perused them). \n \nI am working on some onomastics of major characters in The Knight. \n \nBelow are speculations of Ravd of Redhall. Any feedback you have is appreciated.\n \nRavd of Redhall\nBackground\nSir Ravd of Redhall appears in Chapter 4 of The Knight. Ravd is a knight in the service of Duke Marder (\"marder\" is German for marten, a solitary carnivore related to the weasel). Able describes Ravd in his list of characters as, \"The best knight I ever saw\" (p. 13). 'Best' probably refers to Ravd's strict adherence to the code of chivalry. \nOnomastics\nThe term \"ravd\" appears to be a variant of \"red\" in Old Norse, which was the language spoken by inhabitants of Scandinavia during the Viking Age [5]. \n \n\"The word / ravd /in the context you mention is just a spelling variant of the colour adjective /rau?r/ m in Old Norse, meaning \"red\". As an anthroponym it refers, in all probability, to the colour of a (male) persons hair.\" (Hagland, personal communication; 2009) \n \nThe epithet \"red\" appears in both Norse Mythology and Arthurian Legend. \n \n1. Norse Mythology. The god Thor possessed red hair and a red beard. The Viking chieftains Erik the Red and Thorstein the Red conquered lands during the Viking Age. \n2. Arthurian Legend. The \"Red Knight\" is an appellation referring to 3 major knights, depending on the source materials, including Percival, Gawain, and Galahad [6]. \nInterpretation\nThe interaction between Able and Ravd in Chapters 4-6 may represent early passages in 'Percival, the Story of the Grail [7] . Percival is a naive lad of 15, ignorant in the code of chivalry. He encounters a group of knights, and is so impressed by them, resolves to become a knight himself. Percival travels to King Arthur's court, but due to his crude clothes, naive manner, and lack of training, is not well received by Arthur's knights. Outside of Arthur's castle, young Percival bests a knight in red armor. Claiming the armor and charger, Percival is knighted and earns the appellation of the Red Knight. \n \nIf Able in some ways represents Percival, the Red Knight, then Ravd of Redhall is the exemplar on which Able models his behavior. \"Ravd of Redhall\" is therefore a clue inserted by Mr. Wolfe to look to the story of the Red Knight for insights into Able's motivations and development. \n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0902130953p7cb30b8csc56e9db22a6f1626@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-13T17:53:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ravd of Redhall", "in_reply_to": "<267175.46430.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(slaps self on forehead)\n\nI wish I'd thought of that myself--it makes incredibly good sense.\n\nI loaned my books out to a friend. I do know that Michael's feathers are\nwhite and that they look like a white robe when he pulls his wings in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n This is wonderful! When I get home, I'll have to pull out WK and see if\nthere happens to be a lot of \"white\" associated with Michael. I just can't\nrecall.\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* John Watkins \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Friday, February 13, 2009 11:22:03 AM\n\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Ravd of Redhall\n\nYes, \"Spenser reference\" may have been too confident. I think the intended\nmeaning originates with Spenser, but does not end there.\n\nI think that although Redcrosse has the plot function you describe,\n\"Red-cross Knight\" has, through Tennyson, a more general significance as a\nknight who exemplifies the chivalric ideal (\"A red-cross knight forever\nkneeled/to a Lady in his shield\" in \"The Lady of Shalott\"). The \"red\"\nwithout the \"cross\" here could signify Ravd's role of inspiring Able to\nfollow the path of *pre-Christian *chivalric virtue, which I take as sort\nof the point of the story.\n\nChesterton, in *Orthodoxy*, uses red and white, the colors of the shield\nof St. George (i.e., the Redcrosse Knight) to symbolize the Christian\nbalance between opposing virtues:\n\n\" It *is* true that the historic Church has at once emphasised celibacy\nand emphasised the family; has at once (if one may put it so) been fiercely\nfor having children and fiercely for not having children. It has kept them\nside by side like two strong colours, red and white, like the red and white\nupon the shield of St. George. It has always had a healthy hatred of pink.\nIt hates that combination of two colours which is the feeble expedient of\nthe philosophers. It hates that evolution of black into white which is\ntantamount to a dirty gray. In fact, the whole theory of the Church on\nvirginity might be symbolized in the statement that white is a colour: not\nmerely the absence of a colour.\"\n\nAgain, there's no \"cross\" here, and no \"white\" in a knight named Sir Red of\nRedhall. Thus the virtues that Ravd represents, by my reading are the more\npassionate, \"red\" Christian virtues, undiluted by mixture with the \"white\"\nChristian virtues but also not restrained by coexisting with them. So we\nsee Able sometimes acting like kind of a jerk--he has some virtues, but he\ndoes not represent their unity.\n\nOn Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " If it's a Spenser reference, it's oblique. The Knight of Holiness in the\nFaerie Queene is called Redcrosse, but he's also St. George. In FQ, he's a\nyoung, untested knight who fails repeatedly to live up to his moniker until\nhe learns how to stop being chivalrous (depending on self) and learns to be\nfaithful (depending on God). In FQ, he's more like Able, and Arthur is more\nlike Ravd (from Able's perspective), in terms of representing an ideal of\nknighthood. Still, the \"Red\" is very telling.\n\nThere's no one named Ravd (or close relative to that sound) that I recall.\nI wish there was, however. I read Wizard Knight with Spenser in mind, but\nnever caught direct references, or so I thought. It certainly deals with\nsimilar terrain, however, both thematically and \"surface\" level. If someone\ncould show me that I missed things, however, I'd be eternally grateful.\n\nCraig\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* John Watkins \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Friday, February 13, 2009 9:55:09 AM\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Ravd of Redhall\n\nI think it's a Spenser reference as well, and likely a Chesterton\nreference.\n\nOn Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Scott Wowra wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Folks,\n\nI am new to Urth.net , so my observations are original\n(to me) and not based on reading your threads (although I have perused\nthem).\n\n\n\nI am working on some onomastics of major characters in The Knight.\n\n\n\nBelow are speculations of Ravd of Redhall. Any feedback you have is\nappreciated.\n Ravd of Redhall Background\n\nSir Ravd of Redhall appears in Chapter 4 of *The Knight.* Ravd is a\nknight in the service of Duke Marder (\"marder\" is German for marten, a\nsolitary carnivore related to the weasel). Able describes Ravd in his list\nof characters as, \"The best knight I ever saw\" (p. 13). 'Best' probably\nrefers to Ravd's strict adherence to the code of chivalry.\n Onomastics\n\nThe term \"ravd\" appears to be a variant of \"red\" in Old Norse, which was\nthe language spoken by inhabitants of Scandinavia during the Viking Age\n[5] .\n\n\n \"The word / ravd /in the context you mention is just a spelling variant\nof the colour adjective /rau?r/ m in Old Norse, meaning \"red\". As an\nanthroponym it refers, in all probability, to the colour of a (male) persons\nhair.\" (Hagland, personal communication; 2009)\n\n\nThe epithet \"red\" appears in both Norse Mythology and Arthurian Legend.\n\n\n 1. Norse Mythology. The god Thor possessed red hair and a red beard.\nThe Viking chieftains Erik the Red and Thorstein the Red conquered lands\nduring the Viking Age.\n2. Arthurian Legend. The \"Red Knight\" is an appellation referring to 3\nmajor knights, depending on the source materials, including Percival,\nGawain, and Galahad [6] .\n Interpretation\n\nThe interaction between Able and Ravd in Chapters 4-6 may represent early\npassages in *'Percival, the Story of the Grail* [7]. Percival is a naive lad of 15, ignorant in the code of chivalry. He\nencounters a group of knights, and is so impressed by them, resolves to\nbecome a knight himself. Percival travels to King Arthur's court, but due to\nhis crude clothes, naive manner, and lack of training, is not well received\nby Arthur's knights. Outside of Arthur's castle, young Percival bests a\nknight in red armor. Claiming the armor and charger, Percival is knighted\nand earns the appellation of the Red Knight.\n\n\n\nIf Able in some ways represents Percival, the Red Knight, then Ravd of\nRedhall is the exemplar on which Able models his behavior. \"Ravd of Redhall\"\nis therefore a clue inserted by Mr. Wolfe to look to the story of the Red\nKnight for insights into Able's motivations and development.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris P", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-13T21:15:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ravd of Redhall", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0902130922g1c2b7f33kc6ddbaddf2820613@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ravd seems meant to stand in contrast to Berthold, as well, although neither is particularly a pacifist and I don't think Berthold's color would be white. Nonetheless the Chesterton quote still resonates to an extent because Ravd seems able to find Berthold to be admirable, but firmly deny that he is anything like a knight." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set.\" -- Lin Yutang\n\n\n\nDate: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:22:03 -0500\nFrom: john.watkins04 at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ravd of Redhall\n\nYes, \"Spenser reference\" may have been too confident. I think the intended meaning originates with Spenser, but does not end there.\n \nI think that although Redcrosse has the plot function you describe, \"Red-cross Knight\" has, through Tennyson, a more general significance as a knight who exemplifies the chivalric ideal (\"A red-cross knight forever kneeled/to a Lady in his shield\" in \"The Lady of Shalott\"). The \"red\" without the \"cross\" here could signify Ravd's role of inspiring Able to follow the path of pre-Christian chivalric virtue, which I take as sort of the point of the story.\n\n \nChesterton, in Orthodoxy, uses red and white, the colors of the shield of St. George (i.e., the Redcrosse Knight) to symbolize the Christian balance between opposing virtues:\n \n\" It is true that the historic Church has at once emphasised celibacy and emphasised the family; has at once (if one may put it so) been fiercely for having children and fiercely for not having children. It has kept them side by side like two strong colours, red and white, like the red and white upon the shield of St. George. It has always had a healthy hatred of pink. It hates that combination of two colours which is the feeble expedient of the philosophers. It hates that evolution of black into white which is tantamount to a dirty gray. In fact, the whole theory of the Church on virginity might be symbolized in the statement that white is a colour: not merely the absence of a colour.\"\n\n \nAgain, there's no \"cross\" here, and no \"white\" in a knight named Sir Red of Redhall. Thus the virtues that Ravd represents, by my reading are the more passionate, \"red\" Christian virtues, undiluted by mixture with the \"white\" Christian virtues but also not restrained by coexisting with them. So we see Able sometimes acting like kind of a jerk--he has some virtues, but he does not represent their unity.\n\n \nOn Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\nIf it's a Spenser reference, it's oblique. The Knight of Holiness in the Faerie Queene is called Redcrosse, but he's also St. George. In FQ, he's a young, untested knight who fails repeatedly to live up to his moniker until he learns how to stop being chivalrous (depending on self) and learns to be faithful (depending on God). In FQ, he's more like Able, and Arthur is more like Ravd (from Able's perspective), in terms of representing an ideal of knighthood. Still, the \"Red\" is very telling.\n\n\nThere's no one named Ravd (or close relative to that sound) that I recall. I wish there was, however. I read Wizard Knight with Spenser in mind, but never caught direct references, or so I thought. It certainly deals with similar terrain, however, both thematically and \"surface\" level. If someone could show me that I missed things, however, I'd be eternally grateful.\n\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \n\nSent: Friday, February 13, 2009 9:55:09 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ravd of Redhall\n\n\n\n\nI think it's a Spenser reference as well, and likely a Chesterton reference.\n\n\nOn Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Scott Wowra wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFolks,\nI am new to Urth.net, so my observations are original (to me) and not based on reading your threads (although I have perused them). \n \nI am working on some onomastics of major characters in The Knight. \n \nBelow are speculations of Ravd of Redhall. Any feedback you have is appreciated.\n \nRavd of Redhall\nBackground\nSir Ravd of Redhall appears in Chapter 4 of The Knight. Ravd is a knight in the service of Duke Marder (\"marder\" is German for marten, a solitary carnivore related to the weasel). Able describes Ravd in his list of characters as, \"The best knight I ever saw\" (p. 13). 'Best' probably refers to Ravd's strict adherence to the code of chivalry. \n\n\nOnomastics\nThe term \"ravd\" appears to be a variant of \"red\" in Old Norse, which was the language spoken by inhabitants of Scandinavia during the Viking Age [5]. \n\n \n\n\"The word / ravd /in the context you mention is just a spelling variant of the colour adjective /rau?r/ m in Old Norse, meaning \"red\". As an anthroponym it refers, in all probability, to the colour of a (male) persons hair.\" (Hagland, personal communication; 2009) \n\n \nThe epithet \"red\" appears in both Norse Mythology and Arthurian Legend. \n \n\n1. Norse Mythology. The god Thor possessed red hair and a red beard. The Viking chieftains Erik the Red and Thorstein the Red conquered lands during the Viking Age. \n2. Arthurian Legend. The \"Red Knight\" is an appellation referring to 3 major knights, depending on the source materials, including Percival, Gawain, and Galahad [6]. \n\n\nInterpretation\nThe interaction between Able and Ravd in Chapters 4-6 may represent early passages in 'Percival, the Story of the Grail [7] . Percival is a naive lad of 15, ignorant in the code of chivalry. He encounters a group of knights, and is so impressed by them, resolves to become a knight himself. Percival travels to King Arthur's court, but due to his crude clothes, naive manner, and lack of training, is not well received by Arthur's knights. Outside of Arthur's castle, young Percival bests a knight in red armor. Claiming the armor and charger, Percival is knighted and earns the appellation of the Red Knight. \n\n \nIf Able in some ways represents Percival, the Red Knight, then Ravd of Redhall is the exemplar on which Able models his behavior. \"Ravd of Redhall\" is therefore a clue inserted by Mr. Wolfe to look to the story of the Red Knight for insights into Able's motivations and development. \n\n \n " } ] } ] }