{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5344", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5344, "subject": "Red in catholicism", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2009-02-13T18:07:40+00:00", "last": "2009-02-13T18:18:13+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<198568.27328.qm@web36808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Scott Wowra", "address": "swowra at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-02-13T18:07:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Red in catholicism", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you help me out... I'm not clear which virtue is symbolized by red.\n\nAt CatholicReference.net, \"red\" is defined as,\n\n\"Color sumbolic of warmth and blood. Vestments of this color are used in Masses of the Holy Spirit, recalling the tongues of fire on Pentecost; on feasts commemorating the Passion of Christ; and on festivals of saints who were martyred.\"\n\nCertainly Ravd is not a martyr, holy spirit, or christ-like figure. And, Mr. Wolfe wrote a tale about knighthood in a pre-christian setting.\n\nSo, I'm not sure I buy the link to Redcrosse." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0902131018x13e70489r6d5e2ac41a28923d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-13T18:18:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Red in catholicism", "in_reply_to": "<198568.27328.qm@web36808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My reading, which isn't so much a theory as just how the book hits me on\nreflection, does not rely on traditional Catholic uses of the color red, but\non Wolfe's familiarity with *Orthodoxy *by G.K. Chesterton (written when\nChesterton was an Anglican) and Chesterton's deployment of the St. George\nimage that also occurs in the poetry of Tennyson and Spenser (both also\nAnglicans).\n\nAnother paragraph from the same chapter of *Orthodoxy *might help make\nChesterton's meaning clear:\n\n\"So it is also, of course, with the contradictory charges of the\nanti-Christians about submission and slaughter. It *is* true that the Church\ntold some men to fight and others not to fight; and it *is* true that those\nwho fought were like thunderbolts and those who did not fight were like\nstatues. All this simply means that the Church preferred to use its Supermen\nand to use its Tolstoyans. There must be *some* good in the life of battle,\nfor so many good men have enjoyed being soldiers. There must be *some* good\nin the idea of non-resistance, for so many good men seem to enjoy being\nQuakers. All that the Church did (so far as that goes) was to prevent either\nof these good things from ousting the other. They existed side by side. The\nTolstoyans, having all the scruples of monks, simply became monks. The\nQuakers became a club instead of becoming a sect. Monks said all that\nTolstoy says; they poured out lucid lamentations about the cruelty of\nbattles and the vanity of revenge. But the Tolstoyans are not quite right\nenough to run the whole world; and in the ages of faith they were not\nallowed to run it. The world did not lose the last charge of Sir James\nDouglas or the banner of Joan the Maid. And sometimes this pure gentleness\nand this pure fierceness met and justified their juncture; the paradox of\nall the prophets was fulfilled, and, in the soul of St. Louis, the lion lay\ndown with the lamb. But remember that this text is too lightly interpreted.\nIt is constantly assured, especially in our Tolstoyan tendencies, that when\nthe lion lies down with the lamb the lion becomes lamb-like. But that is\nbrutal annexation and imperialism on the part of the lamb. That is simply\nthe lamb absorbing the lion instead of the lion eating the lamb. The real\nproblem is -- Can the lion lie down with the lamb and still retain his royal\nferocity? *That* is the problem the Church attempted; *that* is the miracle\nshe achieved.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Scott Wowra wrote:\n Can you help me out... I'm not clear which virtue is symbolized by red.\n\nAt CatholicReference.net, \"red\" is defined as,\n\n\"Color sumbolic of warmth and blood. Vestments of this color are used in\nMasses of the Holy Spirit, recalling the tongues of fire on Pentecost; on\nfeasts commemorating the Passion of Christ; and on festivals of saints who\nwere martyred.\"\n\nCertainly Ravd is not a martyr, holy spirit, or christ-like figure.\nAnd, Mr. Wolfe wrote a tale about knighthood in a pre-christian setting.\n\nSo, I'm not sure I buy the link to Redcrosse.\n\n\n ------------------------------\n*From:* \"urth-request at lists.urth.net\" \n*To:* urth at lists.urth.net\n*Sent:* Friday, February 13, 2009 12:53:01 PM\n*Subject:* Urth Digest, Vol 54, Issue 31\n\nSend Urth mailing list submissions to\n urth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n urth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n urth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. Re: Urth Digest, Vol 54, Issue 29 (David Stockhoff)\n 2. Re: OH SCYLLA!!! (hammstu at sbcglobal.net)\n 3. Re: Ravd of Redhall (Craig Brewer)\n 4. Re: Ravd of Redhall (John Watkins)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:30:49 -0500\nFrom: David Stockhoff \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 54, Issue 29\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <4995AE49.2020609 at verizon.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\nDefinitely!\n\nAbel's man-crush on Ravd definitely makes him a Percival. ;)\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 07:50:55 -0800 (PST)\nFrom: Scott Wowra \nSubject: (urth) Ravd of Redhall\nTo: urth at urth.net\nMessage-ID: <347455.83098.qm at web36801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n..........................\n\n\nInterpretation\nThe interaction between Able and Ravd in Chapters 4-6 may represent early\npassages in 'Percival, the Story of the Grail [7] . Percival is a naive lad\nof 15, ignorant in the code of chivalry. He encounters a group of knights,\nand is so impressed by them, resolves to become a knight himself. Percival\ntravels to King Arthur's court, but due to his crude clothes, naive manner,\nand lack of training, is not well received by Arthur's knights. Outside of\nArthur's castle, young Percival bests a knight in red armor. Claiming the\narmor and charger, Percival is knighted and earns the appellation of the Red\nKnight.\n\nIf Able in some ways represents Percival, the Red Knight, then Ravd of\nRedhall is the exemplar on which Able models his behavior. \"Ravd of Redhall\"\nis therefore a clue inserted by Mr. Wolfe to look to the story of the Red\nKnight for insights into Able's motivations and development.\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: <\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20090213/4eed5ff1/attachment-0001.htm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 090212-0, 02/12/2009\nTested on: 2/13/2009 12:30:50 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:45:20 +0000\nFrom: hammstu at sbcglobal.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) OH SCYLLA!!!\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID:\n <\n1724163242-1234547136-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-589440589- at bxe1029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"Windows-1252\"\n\nWe SF Urthers should get together when witz finishes...waddya say?\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato \n\nDate: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:02:29\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) OH SCYLLA!!!\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:48:25 -0800 (PST)\nFrom: Craig Brewer \nSubject: Re: (urth) Ravd of Redhall\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <267175.46430.qm at web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nThis is wonderful! When I get home, I'll have to pull out WK and see if\nthere happens to be a lot of \"white\" associated with Michael. I just can't\nrecall.\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Friday, February 13, 2009 11:22:03 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ravd of Redhall\n\n\nYes, \"Spenser reference\" may have been too confident. I think the intended\nmeaning originates with Spenser, but does not end there.\n\nI think that although Redcrosse has the plot function you describe,\n\"Red-cross Knight\" has, through Tennyson, a more general significance as a\nknight who exemplifies the chivalric ideal (\"A red-cross knight forever\nkneeled/to a Lady in his shield\" in \"The Lady of Shalott\"). The \"red\"\nwithout the \"cross\" here could signify Ravd's role of inspiring Able to\nfollow the path of pre-Christian chivalric virtue, which I take as sort of\nthe point of the story.\n\nChesterton, in Orthodoxy, uses red and white, the colors of the shield of\nSt. George (i.e., the Redcrosse Knight) to symbolize the Christian balance\nbetween opposing virtues:\n\n\" It is true that the historic Church has at once emphasised celibacy and\nemphasised the family; has at once (if one may put it so) been fiercely for\nhaving children and fiercely for not having children. It has kept them side\nby side like two strong colours, red and white, like the red and white upon\nthe shield of St. George. It has always had a healthy hatred of pink. It\nhates that combination of two colours which is the feeble expedient of the\nphilosophers. It hates that evolution of black into white which is\ntantamount to a dirty gray. In fact, the whole theory of the Church on\nvirginity might be symbolized in the statement that white is a colour: not\nmerely the absence of a colour.\"\n\nAgain, there's no \"cross\" here, and no \"white\" in a knight named Sir Red of\nRedhall. Thus the virtues that Ravd represents, by my reading are the more\npassionate, \"red\" Christian virtues, undiluted by mixture with the \"white\"\nChristian virtues but also not restrained by coexisting with them. So we\nsee Able sometimes acting like kind of a jerk--he has some virtues, but he\ndoes not represent their unity.\n\nOn Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\nIf it's a Spenser reference, it's oblique. The Knight of Holiness in the\nFaerie Queene is called Redcrosse, but he's also St. George. In FQ, he's a\nyoung, untested knight who fails repeatedly to live up to his moniker until\nhe learns how to stop being chivalrous (depending on self) and learns to be\nfaithful (depending on God). In FQ, he's more like Able, and Arthur is more\nlike Ravd (from Able's perspective), in terms of representing an ideal of\nknighthood. Still, the \"Red\" is very telling.\n\nThere's no one named Ravd (or close relative to that sound) that I recall.\nI wish there was, however. I read Wizard Knight with Spenser in mind, but\nnever caught direct references, or so I thought. It certainly deals with\nsimilar terrain, however, both thematically and \"surface\" level. If someone\ncould show me that I missed things, however, I'd be eternally grateful.\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n\n________________________________\nFrom: John Watkins \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Friday, February 13, 2009 9:55:09 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ravd of Redhall\n\n\nI think it's a Spenser reference as well, and likely a Chesterton\nreference.\n\n\nOn Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Scott Wowra wrote:\n\nFolks,\nI am new to Urth.net, so my observations are original (to me) and not based\non reading your threads (although I have perused them).\n\nI am working on some onomastics of major characters in The Knight.\n\nBelow are speculations of Ravd of Redhall. Any feedback you have is\nappreciated.\n\nRavd of Redhall\nBackground\nSir Ravd of Redhall appears in Chapter 4 of The Knight. Ravd is a knight in\nthe service of Duke Marder (\"marder\" is German for marten, a solitary\ncarnivore related to the weasel). Able describes Ravd in his list of\ncharacters as, \"The best knight I ever saw\" (p. 13). 'Best' probably refers\nto Ravd's strict adherence to the code of chivalry.\nOnomastics\nThe term \"ravd\" appears to be a variant of \"red\" in Old Norse, which was\nthe language spoken by inhabitants of Scandinavia during the Viking Age [5].\n\n\n\"The word / ravd /in the context you mention is just a spelling variant of\nthe colour adjective /rau?r/ m in Old Norse, meaning \"red\". As an\nanthroponym it refers, in all probability, to the colour of a (male) persons\nhair.\" (Hagland, personal communication; 2009)\n\nThe epithet \"red\" appears in both Norse Mythology and Arthurian Legend.\n\n1. Norse Mythology. The god Thor possessed red hair and a red beard. The\nViking chieftains Erik the Red and Thorstein the Red conquered lands during\nthe Viking Age.\n2. Arthurian Legend. The \"Red Knight\" is an appellation referring to 3\nmajor knights, depending on the source materials, including Percival,\nGawain, and Galahad [6].\nInterpretation\nThe interaction between Able and Ravd in Chapters 4-6 may represent early\npassages in 'Percival, the Story of the Grail [7] . Percival is a naive lad\nof 15, ignorant in the code of chivalry. He encounters a group of knights,\nand is so impressed by them, resolves to become a knight himself. Percival\ntravels to King Arthur's court, but due to his crude clothes, naive manner,\nand lack of training, is not well received by Arthur's knights. Outside of\nArthur's castle, young Percival bests a knight in red armor. Claiming the\narmor and charger, Percival is knighted and earns the appellation of the Red\nKnight.\n\nIf Able in some ways represents Percival, the Red Knight, then Ravd of\nRedhall is the exemplar on which Able models his behavior. \"Ravd of Redhall\"\nis therefore a clue inserted by Mr. Wolfe to look to the story of the Red\nKnight for insights into Able's motivations and development.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }