{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5348", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5348, "subject": "Ship Volant", "messages": 28, "voices": 11, "first": "2009-02-17T17:44:08+00:00", "last": "2009-04-27T00:58:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20090217174408.GH19278@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-02-17T17:44:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Volant is a heraldry term (as is clear from the text), and while the\nword does translate as flying, I think it usually means seen from above.\n(like a pin-board for insects)\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-02-17T17:44:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "more illustration related questions:\n\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nShadow 2:\nFor my part, I had already adopted as my own the device graved in bronze above\nthe door of a certain mausoleum. They were a fountain rising above waters, and a\nship volant\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nShadow 3:\nAt last I turned my treasure over, and then indeed I caught my breath; stamped on the reverse was just such a flying ship as I had seen in the arms above the door of my secret mausoleum.\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nThis is another situation where I'm conflicted as to how one would represent the Ship Volant.\n\nWhat makes a ship look like it's flying?\nDoes the flying ship have masts?\n\nWe've seen masts on Tzadkiel's ship, thousands, which I assume would look like a cubist nightmare clipper, then the masted shuttle that takes Sev and Bergundofora down to Urth, but other than that, the fliers seem to be mastless, and very sleek. I picture them more or less like speedboats. sleek. no masts.\n\nA flying ship for Severian would seem Tzadkiels. I assume it's the same for the Autarch (Appian) who also went to Yessod, presumably on the same ship.\n\nOk, so the Ship Volant would look like Tzadkiel's ship, but who, without having seen such a ship, would even think to call it a ship? But then if I pictured a mastless ship, it would just look like a boat, not a ship?\n\nI know, these are silly concerns, and not crucial to understanding the books, but these details get tricky when trying to draw it out.\n\n\none more:\n\"A fountain rising above waters\"\nI've always pictured this as a spray of water. a plume.\ndoes anyone picture it as a sort of literal, garden fountain. sculptural, I mean?\n\n\nany comments appreciated.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-02-17T18:07:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jeffrey Brent McBeth [mailto:mcbeth at broggs.org]\nSent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 09:44 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ship Volant\n\nVolant is a heraldry term (as is clear from the text), and while the\nword does translate as flying, I think it usually means seen from above.\n(like a pin-board for insects)\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for that.\nin the web references I saw, the Heraldric(?) uses of the term indicates flying, and usually shows wings.\nand then with the description of the coin \"flying ship\" it would seem to indicate, at a glance, that this ship is in flight, in both bas-relief images, blazon and coin. hmm. How the heck can one make a ship look like it's flying without wings? confounding! \n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090217184049.GI19278@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-02-17T18:40:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 06:07:31PM +0000, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nThanks for that.\nin the web references I saw, the Heraldric(?) uses of the term indicates flying, and usually shows wings.\nand then with the description of the coin \"flying ship\" it would seem to indicate, at a glance, that this ship is in flight, in both bas-relief images, blazon and coin. hmm. How the heck can one make a ship look like it's flying without wings? confounding! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Landing gear retracted? Wings extended? I know you said you imagined\nno wings, and with anti-gravity type tech you probably wouldn't need\nwings, but that isn't the only wing like structure on a space ship.\n\nShips that spend any amount of time out in space and have to support\nhuman life have a heat disposal problem, and would probably have to\nhave radiator panels. If the ship were atmospheric, you don't want\nthose things flapping around when there is air around, so you would\nprobably make those panels retractable too. Volant would obviously?\nhave theme extended.\n\nI've imagined the ship from the last book as a giant solar sailor, and\nthose sails would have to be positionable and retractable for agility.\n\nI would actually suggest you look at Ad-Astra games for some\nrenderings of how war ships would probably have to look without the\ninvention of new magic physics.\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710902171115n67a31f55rfc32df37eda1ea44@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-17T19:15:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we talked about this before, but I am of the firm opinion that it\nshould not attempt to look like Tzadiels ship at all. First off, Sev,\nwriting Book of the New Sun, hadn't been on Tzadkiel's ship yet. And as you\nsaid, if one just saw a representation of it, it wouldn't at all look like\nanything someone on Urth would call a ship. So I think we can write off the\nidea that it is to look like Tzadkiel's ship at all (although I've always\nliked to think that if one looked at The Ship from far enough away, it's\nseven sided and many sailed silloutte might look a bit like a rose....)\n\nAnd, as coats-of-arms are made of symbols and not literal figures, I would\nthink a traditional ship would be what is depicted.\n\nVolant? To me, I simply picture an upward tilted profile of a ship. Or a\nship straight on with it's prow tilted upward to indicate that it's rising\n(which would work either profile or head on). On the sea, ships aren't\nnormally at that angle, so it would indicate 'flying' to me.\n\n-Jordon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-02-17T19:37:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<273409710902171115n67a31f55rfc32df37eda1ea44@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah, we had discussed this over curry.\nYou're right about Severian not having been on Tzadkiel's ship as of that writing. Using the rising angle is not a bad idea at all, that's how some birds are depicted in Heraldry sites that mention Volant or \"rising\"\n\nJordon, did the idea of the ship looking like a rose come from my crappy sketch of it, which did have a rose quality, or did you picture that before?\n\n\nIsn't there some point where Severian is horrified looking at some painting or depiction of a ship? what was that?\n\n\nRe: Ad-Astra,\n\nInteresting points about wings. Those ships look very Battlestar Galactica to me, probably technically \"realistic\". I think why I'm attracted to illustrating this novel is that it \"looks\" nothing like Space Sci Fi. Even Tzadkiel's ship has wood and sails and rigging. While the ship is a solar sailer, it doesn't seem to look like our modern renderings, somehow it looks like a 7 sided hull with masts coming off from EVERY angle. I think he literally meant a sort of mylar fabric, sheetlike sail with rigging, and not, say, hard solar panels such.\n\nthanks,\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 11:15 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ship Volant\n\nI think we talked about this before, but I am of the firm opinion that it\nshould not attempt to look like Tzadiels ship at all. First off, Sev,\nwriting Book of the New Sun, hadn't been on Tzadkiel's ship yet. And as you\nsaid, if one just saw a representation of it, it wouldn't at all look like\nanything someone on Urth would call a ship. So I think we can write off the\nidea that it is to look like Tzadkiel's ship at all (although I've always\nliked to think that if one looked at The Ship from far enough away, it's\nseven sided and many sailed silloutte might look a bit like a rose....)\n\nAnd, as coats-of-arms are made of symbols and not literal figures, I would\nthink a traditional ship would be what is depicted.\n\nVolant? To me, I simply picture an upward tilted profile of a ship. Or a\nship straight on with it's prow tilted upward to indicate that it's rising\n(which would work either profile or head on). On the sea, ships aren't\nnormally at that angle, so it would indicate 'flying' to me.\n\n-Jordon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710902171148t1dc52e80y68559073e891a14b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-17T19:48:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've had the rose idea for a while. I think I remember mentioning that your\nsketch could go even more in the 'rose like' direction, as it seemed to be\nclearly going that way. But you know, curry tends to destroy effective\nmemory. And yeah, I can't remember why Severian was horrified at the\ndepiction. The first thing that comes to mind is that it must have looked\nlike one of those typical office posters so well lampooned at Despair.com.\nSomething like a \"Thomas Kincaid: Painter of Light\" version of Tzadiels ship\nwith bold blue text underneath that reads: \"The Ship: Some days you are so\nbusy you just feel like you are meeting yourself coming and going. Only\nhere, it's probably true.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-02-17T19:54:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<273409710902171148t1dc52e80y68559073e891a14b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 11:48 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ship Volant\n\nI've had the rose idea for a while. I think I remember mentioning that your\nsketch could go even more in the 'rose like' direction, as it seemed to be\nclearly going that way. But you know, curry tends to destroy effective\nmemory. And yeah, I can't remember why Severian was horrified at the\ndepiction. The first thing that comes to mind is that it must have looked\nlike one of those typical office posters so well lampooned at Despair.com.\nSomething like a \"Thomas Kincaid: Painter of Light\" version of Tzadiels ship\nwith bold blue text underneath that reads: \"The Ship: Some days you are so\nbusy you just feel like you are meeting yourself coming and going. Only\nhere, it's probably true.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Laughing out loud." } ] }, { "message_id": "<499B25F1.3020401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-02-17T21:02:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a knotty question. Jordan expresses exactly my original \nassumption---but I always imagined an iconic rocket ship pitched or \nangled upward even though that doesn't fit with what Severian knows. \nBeen reading science fiction for too long.\n\nHowever, Jeff is right---volant means \"Depicted with the wings extended \nas in flying.\"\n\nSo ... it would have to resemble an oceangoing ship---with hull and \ndeck, masts and sails---but perhaps with sails that extend outward as \nmuch as upward, winglike. It could be pitched as well. It could also be \nseen from above or below, which might be more difficult perspectives \nfrom which to identify such a ship.\n\nSee this example:\n\nhttp://shop.cafepress.com/item/heraldry-eagle-volant-large-poster/56534642?cmp=pfc--f--us--054--56534642&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=productfeed&utm_term=56534642&utm_campaign=large-poster\n\nbut also:\n\nhttp://www.rafcollection.com/ecart/control/faq;jsessionid=0C254B62E950890745335ACFBF543EBB\n\nAlso, there's no doubt that Severian always had plenty of warning before \nhe used Terminus Est. It was the tool of his trade, after all, and \nusually he only used it after having been paid for a job. So while he \nwould have wanted his limbs free to suddenly leap aside or block a \ntreacherous swing or blow, he would mostly have simply wanted the sword \nout of the way, not accessible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:44:27 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: (urth) Ship Volant\nTo: urth at urth.net\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\nmore illustration related questions:\n\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nShadow 2:\nFor my part, I had already adopted as my own the device graved in bronze above\nthe door of a certain mausoleum. They were a fountain rising above waters, and a\nship volant\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\nShadow 3:\nAt last I turned my treasure over, and then indeed I caught my breath; stamped on the reverse was just such a flying ship as I had seen in the arms above the door of my secret mausoleum.\n\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\n\nThis is another situation where I'm conflicted as to how one would represent the Ship Volant.\n\nWhat makes a ship look like it's flying?\nDoes the flying ship have masts?\n\nWe've seen masts on Tzadkiel's ship, thousands, which I assume would look like a cubist nightmare clipper, then the masted shuttle that takes Sev and Bergundofora down to Urth, but other than that, the fliers seem to be mastless, and very sleek. I picture them more or less like speedboats. sleek. no masts.\n\nA flying ship for Severian would seem Tzadkiels. I assume it's the same for the Autarch (Appian) who also went to Yessod, presumably on the same ship.\n\nOk, so the Ship Volant would look like Tzadkiel's ship, but who, without having seen such a ship, would even think to call it a ship? But then if I pictured a mastless ship, it would just look like a boat, not a ship?\n\nI know, these are silly concerns, and not crucial to understanding the books, but these details get tricky when trying to draw it out.\n\n\none more:\n\"A fountain rising above waters\"\nI've always pictured this as a spray of water. a plume.\ndoes anyone picture it as a sort of literal, garden fountain. sculptural, I mean?\n\n\nany comments appreciated.\n~witz\n\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n \nJeff\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<499B9F50.5080602@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-02-18T05:40:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jeffrey Brent McBeth [mailto:mcbeth at broggs.org]\nSent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 09:44 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ship Volant\n\nVolant is a heraldry term (as is clear from the text), and while the\nword does translate as flying, I think it usually means seen from above.\n(like a pin-board for insects)\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for that.\nin the web references I saw, the Heraldric(?) uses of the term indicates flying, and usually shows wings.\nand then with the description of the coin \"flying ship\" it would seem to indicate, at a glance, that this ship is in flight, in both bas-relief images, blazon and coin. hmm. How the heck can one make a ship look like it's flying without wings? confounding! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might be drawn with hydrofoils, or with the fins of flying fish." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk", "address": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-02-18T09:08:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<499B9F50.5080602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "jwilson at io.com wrote:\nin the web references I saw, the Heraldric(?) uses of the term indicates\nflying, and usually shows wings. and then with the description of the coin \n\"flying ship\" it would seem to indicate, at a glance, that this ship is \nin flight, in both bas-relief images, blazon and coin. hmm. How the heck\ncan one make a ship look like it's flying without wings? confounding! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are several deliberate ambiguities here.\n\nFirst in heraldry a navire volant is a ship under full sail, those sails bellied by the wind. So the description of the coin and other instances can be read in an entirely conventional manner if you just have that small bit of knowledge.\n\nSecond Severian throughout the narrative makes little distinction between a ship of the conventional water going type and a ship of space such as the craft that hovers above Baldander's tower. So here too is an interpretation of \"flying ship\" that might not really surprise the reader.\n\nThird - and this is something that is perhaps not made really explicit until Urth I think although either Hethor or Jonas allude to them - space, time and universe spanning ships, maybe only one ship, such as that on which Severian travels really do have keels, masts, sails and all the other appurtenances of an ocean going vessel. So a ship flying through the air or space with the mirror sails of high technology (indistinguishable from magic as AC Clarke's famous aphorism has it) is quite conceivable.\n\nI'm curious to know why these successive constructions are presented and my guess is that at least one reason (not to say there aren't several others intended concurrently) is to ease the reader into the suspension of disbelief that allows Tadzekiel's ship to literally sail through space and time.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2009-02-18T14:45:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nThis is another situation where I'm conflicted as to how one would\nrepresent the Ship Volant.\n\nWhat makes a ship look like it's flying?\nDoes the flying ship have masts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps it looks like the ship here: http://www.baen.com/ or:\nhttp://www.tor.com/. There is\na famous sci-fi publisher icon that looks like a zooming rocket (but the\nicon has changed\nand I can't remember the publisher). I just figured it was a subtle\nreference/joke." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "one more:\n\"A fountain rising above waters\"\nI've always pictured this as a spray of water. a plume.\ndoes anyone picture it as a sort of literal, garden fountain. sculptural, I\nmean?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "any comments appreciated.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Enamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2281.72.171.0.145.1234975381.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2009-02-18T16:43:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "People have been talking seriously about sail powered spaceships for decades.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "jwilson at io.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "in the web references I saw, the Heraldric(?) uses of the term indicates\nflying, and usually shows wings. and then with the description of the\ncoin\n\"flying ship\" it would seem to indicate, at a glance, that this ship is\nin flight, in both bas-relief images, blazon and coin. hmm. How the\nheck\ncan one make a ship look like it's flying without wings? confounding!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are several deliberate ambiguities here.\n\nFirst in heraldry a navire volant is a ship under full sail, those sails\nbellied by the wind. So the description of the coin and other instances\ncan be read in an entirely conventional manner if you just have that small\nbit of knowledge.\n\nSecond Severian throughout the narrative makes little distinction between\na ship of the conventional water going type and a ship of space such as\nthe craft that hovers above Baldander's tower. So here too is an\ninterpretation of \"flying ship\" that might not really surprise the reader.\n\nThird - and this is something that is perhaps not made really explicit\nuntil Urth I think although either Hethor or Jonas allude to them - space,\ntime and universe spanning ships, maybe only one ship, such as that on\nwhich Severian travels really do have keels, masts, sails and all the\nother appurtenances of an ocean going vessel. So a ship flying through\nthe air or space with the mirror sails of high technology\n(indistinguishable from magic as AC Clarke's famous aphorism has it) is\nquite conceivable.\n\nI'm curious to know why these successive constructions are presented and\nmy guess is that at least one reason (not to say there aren't several\nothers intended concurrently) is to ease the reader into the suspension of\ndisbelief that allows Tadzekiel's ship to literally sail through space and\ntime.\n\nMatthew\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-02-18T16:52:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<2281.72.171.0.145.1234975381.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. This is all really helpful.\nSince I always pictured a masted ship, and Tzadkiel's reinforces that concept, I suppose I'll go with a Ship under full sail, at an upward angle.\n\nIt's interesting to see the different responses. I guess I shouldn't be surprised to hear that some folks picture a rocket ship.\nMakes it clear to me that while I might try to satisfy the text, it would be very hard to arrive at some consensus image.\n\nDang. I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying reading this book again. Even more than the second read. nuts.\n\n~Witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: matthew at calmeilles.co.uk [mailto:matthew at calmeilles.co.uk]\nSent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 01:08 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ship Volant\n\njwilson at io.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "in the web references I saw, the Heraldric(?) uses of the term indicates\nflying, and usually shows wings. and then with the description of the coin \n\"flying ship\" it would seem to indicate, at a glance, that this ship is \nin flight, in both bas-relief images, blazon and coin. hmm. How the heck\ncan one make a ship look like it's flying without wings? confounding! " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are several deliberate ambiguities here.\n\nFirst in heraldry a navire volant is a ship under full sail, those sails bellied by the wind. So the description of the coin and other instances can be read in an entirely conventional manner if you just have that small bit of knowledge.\n\nSecond Severian throughout the narrative makes little distinction between a ship of the conventional water going type and a ship of space such as the craft that hovers above Baldander's tower. So here too is an interpretation of \"flying ship\" that might not really surprise the reader.\n\nThird - and this is something that is perhaps not made really explicit until Urth I think although either Hethor or Jonas allude to them - space, time and universe spanning ships, maybe only one ship, such as that on which Severian travels really do have keels, masts, sails and all the other appurtenances of an ocean going vessel. So a ship flying through the air or space with the mirror sails of high technology (indistinguishable from magic as AC Clarke's famous aphorism has it) is quite conceivable.\n\nI'm curious to know why these successive constructions are presented and my guess is that at least one reason (not to say there aren't several others intended concurrently) is to ease the reader into the suspension of disbelief that allows Tadzekiel's ship to literally sail through space and time.\n\nMatthew\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5c3e602f0902180857w7bf8a9bei806ca3cca0b379de@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Rob Thornton", "address": "oblate777 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-02-18T16:57:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<2281.72.171.0.145.1234975381.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:43 AM, wrote:\nPeople have been talking seriously about sail powered spaceships for decades." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Additionally, I think there are hints that the sails in the Ship are\nmore like the mirrors in Father Inire's quarters than standard solar\nsails.\n\nrob t." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Our plan is working perfectly. In mere days, hordes of gay Islamic\nabortionists will be streaming over the border from Mexico.\"\n\n --Daily Kos poster" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090218183302.77D6248009@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-02-18T18:32:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<5c3e602f0902180857w7bf8a9bei806ca3cca0b379de@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 16:57 18/02/2009, you wrote:\nAdditionally, I think there are hints that the sails in the Ship are\nmore like the mirrors in Father Inire's quarters than standard solar\nsails." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More than hints: in Urth the apports that arrive on the ship do so \nvia the mirrored sails that face each other. I think Severian \ncompares them to the book in which two mirrors face themselves and \nthereby accumulate power which he is shown in his first visit to the \nHouse Absolute.\n\nProsaicly solar sails would surely be most efficient if morrored \nwould they not?\n\nMatthew\n\n\nSi non confectus, non reficiat" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-02-18T18:36:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<20090218183302.77D6248009@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the text was pretty clear about making them mirrored, yet flexible. Silvered Sails. I don't think they are rigid, and I believe we encounter masts with sails unfurled. I need to check though.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Matthew Malthouse [mailto:matthew at calmeilles.co.uk]\nSent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 10:32 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ship Volant\n\nAt 16:57 18/02/2009, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Additionally, I think there are hints that the sails in the Ship are\nmore like the mirrors in Father Inire's quarters than standard solar\nsails." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More than hints: in Urth the apports that arrive on the ship do so \nvia the mirrored sails that face each other. I think Severian \ncompares them to the book in which two mirrors face themselves and \nthereby accumulate power which he is shown in his first visit to the \nHouse Absolute.\n\nProsaicly solar sails would surely be most efficient if morrored \nwould they not?\n\nMatthew\n\n\nSi non confectus, non reficiat\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004901c99209$2cfcdd60$0ad34a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-02-18T20:40:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nThanks. This is all really helpful.\nSince I always pictured a masted ship, and Tzadkiel's reinforces that\nconcept, I suppose I'll go with a Ship under full sail, at an upward\nangle.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is almost certain to be correct. See the description of the tender that\nbrought Severian and Burgundofara back to Urth:\n\n\"I recall thinking, as I leaned over the railing and watched dots of red and\ngold turn to woodlots, and brown smudges to fields of tangled stalks, how\nstrange we should have looked had there been anyone to watch us, a trim\npinnace-just such a vessel as might have lain alongside some wharf in\nNessus-floating silently down out of the sky.\" (URTH, chap. XXVIII, 196)\n\nAnd when the tender rose:\n\n\"We turned-as I believe no one could have helped turning-and watched the\ntender rise, righting herself as soon as her keel was free of the soil,\nbobbing in a gentle swell none but she could feel and lifting like a kite.\nWe had come to Urth through clouds, as I have said; but the tender found an\nopening in them (I cannot but think it was so we might watch her) and rose\nthrough it, higher and higher, until hull and masts were no more than a\npinprick of golden light. At length we saw her blossom to a shining speck,\nlike the steel that falls from a file; then we knew that her crew had freed\nher sails, all of silver metal and each bigger than many an isle, and\nsheeted them home, and that we would not see her again.\" (ibid. 196-197)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's interesting to see the different responses. I guess I shouldn't be\nsurprised to hear that some folks picture a rocket ship.\nMakes it clear to me that while I might try to satisfy the text, it would\nbe very hard to arrive at some consensus image.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is not likely that the image on the coin (the same as on the mausoleum)\nwas of a conventional rocket ship. There were no working spacecraft of that\ntype on Urth. It would be almost impossible to represent the seven-sided\nShip of Tzadkiel on a coin. Remember that both Severian and the Old Autarch\nhad been shuttled between Urth and the Ship by a tender like the one\ndescribed above, and the Old Autarch's face was on the obverse side of the\ncoin. The flying ship was the symbol he and Severian (and possibly Ymar) had\nin common.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090218210413.GB13404@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-02-18T21:04:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<004901c99209$2cfcdd60$0ad34a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 02:40:36PM -0600, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nIt is not likely that the image on the coin (the same as on the mausoleum)\nwas of a conventional rocket ship. There were no working spacecraft of that\ntype on Urth. It would be almost impossible to represent the seven-sided\nShip of Tzadkiel on a coin. Remember that both Severian and the Old Autarch\nhad been shuttled between Urth and the Ship by a tender like the one\ndescribed above, and the Old Autarch's face was on the obverse side of the\ncoin. The flying ship was the symbol he and Severian (and possibly Ymar) had\nin common." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Plus, if it were a conventional rocket ship, they wouldn't have been\nso quick to call what they were living in \"Towers\"\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-02-18T21:28:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<20090218210413.GB13404@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, thanks for justifying it with the text. great stuff.\nI agree about the significance this ship has linking Severian, the Autarch, and Ymar. I feel certain the face on that particular coin is the current Autarch (Appian) because of the androgeny. First he thinks it's a woman's face, which is more or less his first thought when he meets Appian in the House Azure.\n\nMan, I wish I had all day to draw on this stuff right now. so rarely get the time to work on it.\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Roy C. Lackey [mailto:rclackey at stic.net]\nSent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:40 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ship Volant\n\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thanks. This is all really helpful.\nSince I always pictured a masted ship, and Tzadkiel's reinforces that\nconcept, I suppose I'll go with a Ship under full sail, at an upward\nangle.<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is almost certain to be correct. See the description of the tender that\nbrought Severian and Burgundofara back to Urth:\n\n\"I recall thinking, as I leaned over the railing and watched dots of red and\ngold turn to woodlots, and brown smudges to fields of tangled stalks, how\nstrange we should have looked had there been anyone to watch us, a trim\npinnace-just such a vessel as might have lain alongside some wharf in\nNessus-floating silently down out of the sky.\" (URTH, chap. XXVIII, 196)\n\nAnd when the tender rose:\n\n\"We turned-as I believe no one could have helped turning-and watched the\ntender rise, righting herself as soon as her keel was free of the soil,\nbobbing in a gentle swell none but she could feel and lifting like a kite.\nWe had come to Urth through clouds, as I have said; but the tender found an\nopening in them (I cannot but think it was so we might watch her) and rose\nthrough it, higher and higher, until hull and masts were no more than a\npinprick of golden light. At length we saw her blossom to a shining speck,\nlike the steel that falls from a file; then we knew that her crew had freed\nher sails, all of silver metal and each bigger than many an isle, and\nsheeted them home, and that we would not see her again.\" (ibid. 196-197)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's interesting to see the different responses. I guess I shouldn't be\nsurprised to hear that some folks picture a rocket ship.\nMakes it clear to me that while I might try to satisfy the text, it would\nbe very hard to arrive at some consensus image.<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is not likely that the image on the coin (the same as on the mausoleum)\nwas of a conventional rocket ship. There were no working spacecraft of that\ntype on Urth. It would be almost impossible to represent the seven-sided\nShip of Tzadkiel on a coin. Remember that both Severian and the Old Autarch\nhad been shuttled between Urth and the Ship by a tender like the one\ndescribed above, and the Old Autarch's face was on the obverse side of the\ncoin. The flying ship was the symbol he and Severian (and possibly Ymar) had\nin common.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<499CD28E.5030907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-02-19T03:31:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo. Or Severian would have called the image on the coin a \"tower volant.\" And on fire as well, presumably. I doubt there's a heraldry term for that!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:04:13 -0500\nFrom: Jeffrey Brent McBeth \nSubject: Re: (urth) Ship Volant\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <20090218210413.GB13404 at broggs.org>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nOn Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 02:40:36PM -0600, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is not likely that the image on the coin (the same as on the mausoleum)\nwas of a conventional rocket ship. There were no working spacecraft of that\ntype on Urth. It would be almost impossible to represent the seven-sided\nShip of Tzadkiel on a coin. Remember that both Severian and the Old Autarch\nhad been shuttled between Urth and the Ship by a tender like the one\ndescribed above, and the Old Autarch's face was on the obverse side of the\ncoin. The flying ship was the symbol he and Severian (and possibly Ymar) had\nin common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nPlus, if it were a conventional rocket ship, they wouldn't have been\nso quick to call what they were living in \"Towers\"\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<499CE282.7070006@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2009-02-19T04:39:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<499CD28E.5030907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nBingo. Or Severian would have called the image on the coin a \"tower \nvolant.\" And on fire as well, presumably. I doubt there's a heraldry \nterm for that!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"in flames\"\n\nhttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BrusinoArsizio-coat_of_arms.svg" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk", "address": "matthew at calmeilles.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-02-19T10:36:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<499CD28E.5030907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "dstockhoff at verizon.net wrote:\nBingo. Or Severian would have called the image on the coin a \"tower volant.\" And on fire as well, presumably. I doubt there's a heraldry term for that!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two options; if \"proper\" ie depicted with a degree of realism \"aflame\" as in:\n\nArms impaled. Dexter: Arms party per fess Gules and Argent; in chief a cross of the second with a heart enflamed in centre Or and upon a chief of the second three fleur-de-lis per fess of the third; in base a carpenter's square per chevron between three lilies of the second. Sinister: Or, issuant from a base wavy Azure a tower aflame Argent, the tongues of fire Gules; on a chief of the third a Cedar of Lebanon Proper.\n\nhttp://www.htdiocese.org/BishopsOffice/tabid/707/Default.aspx\n\nIf symbolic wavy hauriant Gules indented Or - red vertical wavy lines with inside border of gold - would be understood as would anything vaguely similar, eg the Congressional Space Medal of honour a red line on while band symbolises botht eh \"fire\" of the rockets and courage of astronauts. http://history.nasa.gov/spacemedal1.pdf\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "<499E1BE0.8070207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-02-20T02:56:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awesome! ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 18 Feb \n2009 22:39:30 -0600 From: Jeff Wilson Subject: Re: \n(urth) Ship Volant To: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <499CE282.7070006 at io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed David Stockhoff wrote:\nBingo. Or Severian would have called the image on the coin a \"tower \nvolant.\" And on fire as well, presumably. I doubt there's a heraldry \nterm for that!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"in flames\"\n\nhttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BrusinoArsizio-coat_of_arms.svg\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > \n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090302182734.GF28349@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-03-02T18:27:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 07:37:58PM +0000, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nInteresting points about wings. Those ships look very Battlestar\nGalactica to me, probably technically \"realistic\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This comment has confused me for a while, as their ships don't look\nBattlestar Galactica at all, and I think I finally figured out what\nhappened. Ad-Astra has three lines now rather than just the one. I\nmeant to look into the Ten-Worlds line rather than their imagining of\nWeber's Honorverse. The best images I could find were (unfortunately)\non t-shirts (unless you get their calendar, which is pretty, but silly\nwith two months already gone)\n\nhttp://www.cafepress.com/irrationalshop/2047067\n\nAlthough the quotes around \"realistic\" is a bit silly too. Given\ncurrent physics, there a lot of features on the outside of a\ndeep-space manned space ship that would have to look a certain way to\nbe feasible.\n\nSorry again for resurrecting an old topic, later down this discussion\npeople came to a much more sane idea of what an illustration from the\nbooks should look like:\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-03T17:13:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "<20090302182734.GF28349@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hope that wasn't eating at you this long, Jeffrey.\nyeah, those ones on the shirt are much more in line and not very BSG looking.\n\n(also, BTW, not really feeling the last few BSG episodes...hmmmmm.)\n\ndanke,\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jeffrey Brent McBeth [mailto:mcbeth at broggs.org]\nSent: Monday, March 2, 2009 10:27 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Ship Volant\n\nOn Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 07:37:58PM +0000, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting points about wings. Those ships look very Battlestar\nGalactica to me, probably technically \"realistic\". " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This comment has confused me for a while, as their ships don't look\nBattlestar Galactica at all, and I think I finally figured out what\nhappened. Ad-Astra has three lines now rather than just the one. I\nmeant to look into the Ten-Worlds line rather than their imagining of\nWeber's Honorverse. The best images I could find were (unfortunately)\non t-shirts (unless you get their calendar, which is pretty, but silly\nwith two months already gone)\n\nhttp://www.cafepress.com/irrationalshop/2047067\n\nAlthough the quotes around \"realistic\" is a bit silly too. Given\ncurrent physics, there a lot of features on the outside of a\ndeep-space manned space ship that would have to look a certain way to\nbe feasible.\n\nSorry again for resurrecting an old topic, later down this discussion\npeople came to a much more sane idea of what an illustration from the\nbooks should look like:\nJeff\n-- \n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \nthe man who cannot read them.\"\n-- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090303171810.GH28349@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2009-03-03T17:18:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ship Volant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 03, 2009 at 05:13:27PM +0000, Son of Witz wrote:\nHope that wasn't eating at you this long, Jeffrey." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eating, no, but I play the games quite a bit, and everytime I saw a\npicture of one of the ships, I would squint to try to see BSG designs :)\n\nAs far as the show goes, I'm still stuck back shortly after they\nescape the planet where they had decided to colonize, so I have a bit\nof catching up to do :) (I don't care that much about spoilers,\nhowever)\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0904261758m50984c60x1dbc0dad8753ac2b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-04-27T00:58:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ship volant", "in_reply_to": "<20090303171810.GH28349@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apropos of the question of the necessity of wings on a heraldic\nrepresentation of anything \"volant,\" I find this quote in Soldier of\nthe Mist (62): \"[H]er oars, with the foam on them, made her look like\na bird with four white wings.\" Someone else here suggested that banks\nof oars might suggest wings (and that the many masts on the Tzadkiel\nmight suggest both banks of oars and wings). This quote lends support\nto that idea." } ] } ] }