{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5350", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5350, "subject": "The Waif", "messages": 9, "voices": 7, "first": "2009-03-03T20:39:23+00:00", "last": "2009-03-06T01:52:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mike Legedza", "address": "mike.legedza at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-03T20:39:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Waif", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi everyone.\n\nI've been a huge Gene Wolfe fan for over 5 years now, reading as much of his\nstuff as I can.\n\nI'd love to start a very specific discussion topic about one of his short\nstories. The short story I'd like to have a discussion on is \"The Waif\",\nwhich appears in the collection \"Innocents Aboard.\" There's been a bit of\ndiscussion of the story on the board before, but not enough, I think.\n\nThis is one of those stories that is haunting, beautiful, and like most\nWolfe stories is subtle, complex, understated...but in a bizarre way rather\nsimple (which is perfectly exemplified in Bin's question to his teacher\nabout how if it's so terrible to burn someone alive, why don't they just not\ndo it?).\n\nHowever, the story does leave the reader to do a LOT of work, so I'd like to\nintroduce some questions or comments that I hope everyone here might like to\ndiscuss and perhaps help me better understand the story.\n\nHere goes...\n\n1) Maybe the biggest question of all ... Who ARE the Flying People?\nAriael's name suggests he might be some kind of angel...or at least\ninstructs us that we should view the Flying People on the same terms as we\nwould angels ... but the story is light on evidence as to who exactly the\nflying people are supposed to be, whether they are somehow alien, or a part\nof humanity that left Earth and survived the apocalypse, or literally\nangels. Does anyone here have any other theories that fits with any\nevidence the text gives? Ariael is described as being fair skinned and\nalmost androgynous looking, which is in keeping with the idea he is an\nangel...but I don't know how eager a real angel would be to beat Gid with a\nstick.\n\n2) Niman Pryderi's description as to why their community doesn't tolerate\nthe flying people is perhaps intentionally confusing. I've read his logic a\ndozen times now, and still can't really figure out how it works. From what\nI gather, he is saying that humanity can't rebuild as long as the flying\npeople are present, because their presence continually makes us feel shame\nfor the way we destroyed our own world. So essentially, we can only rebuild\nonce we have freed ourselves from the constant reminder of our sins. This\nlogic doesn't really make the connection between the flying people and us\nwanting to burn each other alive...but maybe I'm missing something vital.\nDoes anyone here a lot smarter than me have a better explanation for what is\ngoing on here?\n\n3) Speaking of Niman Pryderi, his description as to why people call each\nother Niman seems to come out of nowhere. Bin doesn't really say anything\nthat compels him to give this bit of exposition, or at least nothing readily\nobvious. The only clue as to what the motivation for this bit of dialogue\nis might be how Niman Pryderi is described as having a \"bitter smile\" while\nhe says it. I think perhaps Niman Pryderi sees the ridiculousness of the\nlogic - that somehow calling someone Niman instead of Neighbour will make it\nokay to burn them alive - but maybe he feels like he is powerless to stop\nit. In fact, the society has become so perverted that it seems the only way\nto save someone is to hurt that person severely (Niman Joel must be burned\nalive so he can be saved and go to heaven; Gam must burn Bin's hand on the\nstove so that he knows how it feels in the hope that it'll prevent him from\ndoing anything that might cause him to get burned alive by the town; and\nNiman Pryderi can only save Bin from his classmates by whipping him badly).\n\n4) Just what is Ariael trying to achieve by befriending Bin? What's his\nagenda, because he seems to have one. At one point when Ariael asks Bin for\nhis boots, Ariael says that he was just testing Bin. Is this whole thing\nmeant to be some kind of test? Is he testing Bin's compassion? But to what\nend? I've read a bit of discussion that says Ariael is taking advantage of\nBin's good nature, but I'm not sure I understand that. Yes, Ariael seems to\nattract attention to Bin and Gam on purpose (a person who can so easily make\nhimself invisible seems to allow himself to be seen by everyone who bothers\nto look) resulting in them getting captured and persecuted by the town...but\nis he intentionally trying to get them burned at the stake? And something\nhappens at the very end that I think challenges the idea that Ariael's\nintentions are malicious.\n\n5) Speaking of the ending, does anyone have any thoughts as to the\nsignificance of the rain falling at the end? I'm assuming that the downpour\nwas powerful enough to put out the fire that was burning, and that Ariael\ncaused the downpour, saving Gam and Bin. I think it's also possible to\nrelate this event to what Nyman Pryderi says about saving Bin by raking him\nout of the fire. Ariael instead puts the fire out, which I guess is a far\nmore effective way to save someone from being burned. I think this whole\nthing is saying something significant about the nature of love, although\nwhat specifically I'm a bit unsure on, but I'd love to hear what anyone else\nmight have to say on it.\n\nI guess that's enough for now...I've definitely left out a lot of things\nthat could be discussed, so if anyone wants to talk about anything else in\nthe story that I didn't mention, I'd love to hear it. I just want to better\nunderstand what's going on in this story and any help anyone can offer, I'd\nappreciate it. And if any of you think I'm WAY off base with any of my\nreadings of things, please correct me!\n\n-Mike" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0903031612l75c0965cy90f6eb2ca6f97de4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-04T00:12:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Waif", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mike,\n\n1) I have always assumed that this story takes place in the same\nuniverse as _The Book of the Long Sun_ and _The Book of the Short\nSun_. Since Bin sees blue sky and talks about the sun going down and\nthe moon coming up, they are not in the Whorl. But neither Blue nor\nGreen has a moon, and no one in _Short Sun_ refers to Blue or Green as\na moon (though SilkHorn on Urth refers to Lune as Green...). So that\ncasts some doubt on the notion that \"The Waif\" is set on either Blue\nor Green as I have always assumed. But if it is, then that should\ngive two potential answers to question #1: either Ariael is a Flier or\nhe is an inhumu. His nickname is Cold Lad, and he appears to be very\nuncomfortable in the cold weather. As far as we know there are no\nFliers outside the Whorl.\n\n2) The psychology behind the mass hysteria in Bin's community seems to\nbe something like what gave rise to the Salem witch trials or the\nReign of Terror. But you're right, I don't completely understand\nNiman Pryderi's explanation of the feeling of humiliation and how that\nprevents them from progressing. Maybe this all makes a little more\nsense if the inhumi are involved. But I wouldn't imagine Wolfe would\nwrite an ostensibly stand-alone short story whose logic depends upon\nknowledge of another of his own works. Anyway, perhaps I'll have to\nreread the story with the inhumi in mind.\n\n3) Have to think more on this. The discussion about \"Neighbors\" may\nindeed be intended to point readers toward the Short Sun\ninterpretation. \"Niman\" sounds like a negation of Man, perhaps,\nagain, pointing towards \"inhumi.\"\n\n4) Yes, this all makes me think of the inhumi. Inciting people to\nprey upon each other. Also Ariael's inexplicable need for human\ncontact. Bin sees plumes of steam in the barn, which he assumes are\nthe other boy's (\"Ariael\") breath. An inhumu's breath wouldn't make\nsteam; however there are big rats in the barn (Like the one Gid says\nhe killed), and the other boy may be feeding on one -- steam rising\nfrom its blood. As Bin speculates, perhaps Gid didn't kill the rat,\nbut only found it dead after an inhumu had fed on it.\n\n5) I have to reread on this too. I don't see how Ariael could cause\nit to rain, since he is not a Flier, and this is not the Whorl.\nClearly the image of spring dawning seems very important in the story.\n Maybe it's just a very well-timed spring downpour. But it's not like\nWolfe to insert a straightforward miracle as a Deus ex machina. What\ncauses the rain? And does anyone have any insight into the names:\nespecially Pryderi, \"Ariael\" a.k.a. Cold Lad, and the title \"Niman\"?\n\nMatt G." } ] }, { "message_id": "<49ADE1F2.8050202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-04T02:05:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Waif", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0903031612l75c0965cy90f6eb2ca6f97de4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mike---\n\nIt's been a long time since I've read that story, but I agree that it's \nmore complex than it appears---it didn't quite add up. I'll have to \nreread. I recall it seems to suggest a kind of \"tough love\" is needed by \nthe fallen.\n\nBut I do think angels are quite happy to beat people when they consider \nit necessary. They've been known to use flaming swords---so why not sticks?\n\nDave" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20090304092932.30B5048009@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2009-03-04T09:29:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Waif", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0903031612l75c0965cy90f6eb2ca6f97de4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 00:12 04/03/2009, you wrote:\nAnd does anyone have any insight into the names:\nespecially Pryderi" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pryderi is one of the major characters from the Mabinogion. The name \nmeans \"worry\". A fair bit about him in Wikipedia, although it talks \nmore about his appearance in Lloyd Alexander's books than in the myth(!)\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pryderi\n\nTbh though I'm not at all sure what light any of it sheds on Niman Pryderi.\n\nMo\n\n\n\n\nMo Holkar\nUndying King Games\nmo at ukg.co.uk\nhttp://www.ukg.co.uk " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002801c99d0e$792c0200$f2d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2009-03-04T21:16:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Waif", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mike Legedza wrote:\n1) Maybe the biggest question of all ... Who ARE the Flying People?\nAriael's name suggests he might be some kind of angel...or at least\ninstructs us that we should view the Flying People on the same terms as we\nwould angels ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Of course I can't answer all your questions, but I'll give you my take,\nfwiw.\n\nI think you are right to view the Flying People as angelic -- if they aren't\nquite Judeo-Christian angels, they serve that functiion in this story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Niman Pryderi's description as to why their community doesn't tolerate\nthe flying people is perhaps intentionally confusing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I see it, the schoolmaster is representative of those on Earth who are\nphilosophically akin to Vodalus and others on Urth who wanted to return to\nthe stars and reclaim Man's past glory. (But I am *not* saying this story\ntakes place in the same milieu as the Sun Cycle -- it doesn't.) Mankind on\nEarth had precipitated an apocalyptic collapse of a technological society.\nWhen they started to recover, the Flying People showed up to stop them from\nrepeating the disaster; whether actively or passively isn't clear. The\nFlying People serve the same function as the Hierodules on Urth; to keep\nmankind down until they have learned their moral lessons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've read his logic a\ndozen times now, and still can't really figure out how it works. From\nwhat\nI gather, he is saying that humanity can't rebuild as long as the flying\npeople are present, because their presence continually makes us feel shame\nfor the way we destroyed our own world. So essentially, we can only\nrebuild\nonce we have freed ourselves from the constant reminder of our sins. This\nlogic doesn't really make the connection between the flying people and us\nwanting to burn each other alive...but maybe I'm missing something vital.\nDoes anyone here a lot smarter than me have a better explanation for what\nis\ngoing on here?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As the schoolmaster said, \"Guilt is the worst part, Bin. Knowing that we\nwere on the devil's side, and that what we got was less than we deserved.\"\n(p-96) Mankind had sinned, yet again. But God is merciful, etc. Joel's\nsocial transgression, for which he was burned and which may have included\nreporting to the Flying People men who spoke out against the \"angels\", was\nthat he did not have the time or energy to actively hate the \"angels\". He\nlet them sleep in his barn when they were slumming among humans and testing\nthem, as Ariael tested Bin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5) Speaking of the ending, does anyone have any thoughts as to the\nsignificance of the rain falling at the end? I'm assuming that the\ndownpour\nwas powerful enough to put out the fire that was burning, and that Ariael\ncaused the downpour, saving Gam and Bin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "God helps those on the side of the angels, at least those who are young and\ninnocent and believe the angels to be Good. Notice that the rain didn't\nstart until young Bin, who can't be much more than nine-years old, came\nforward to try to stamp out the flames and was in danger of being burned to\ndeath himself. And none of the villagers tried to stop him. Bin had shown\nhis true colors and was destined for the flames anyway, sooner or later.\nAriael was morally compelled to save him, and he did, because at the\nbeginning of the story Bin, poor as he was and not knowing that Ariael was\none of the \"rich\" Flying People, had extended hospitality and compassion to\nan angel, unaware.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200903042042.16655.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "from": { "name": "Daniel D Jones", "address": "ddjones at riddlemaster.org" }, "date": "2009-03-05T01:42:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Waif", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday 03 March 2009 15:39:23 Mike Legedza wrote:\n1) Maybe the biggest question of all ... Who ARE the Flying People?\nAriael's name suggests he might be some kind of angel...or at least\ninstructs us that we should view the Flying People on the same terms as we\nwould angels ... but the story is light on evidence as to who exactly the\nflying people are supposed to be, whether they are somehow alien, or a part\nof humanity that left Earth and survived the apocalypse, or literally\nangels. Does anyone here have any other theories that fits with any\nevidence the text gives? Ariael is described as being fair skinned and\nalmost androgynous looking, which is in keeping with the idea he is an\nangel...but I don't know how eager a real angel would be to beat Gid with a\nstick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assumed that they're aliens, although I'm not entirely comfortable with the \nidea. After all, they're \"human beings not much different from ourselves.\"\n\nThe name Ariel (without the 'a') means \"Lion of God\" in Hebrew. It's also an \nalternate name for Jerusalem. But in \"The Tempest,\" Ariel is an \"airy spirit\" \nwho is reluctantly beholden to Prospero and he thwarts a plot to kill the \nking Alonzo. I haven't seen much in the way of Shakespearean references in \nWolfe's work but it seems to fit here, particularly if your interpretation of \nthe end is correct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Niman Pryderi's description as to why their community doesn't tolerate\nthe flying people is perhaps intentionally confusing. I've read his logic\na dozen times now, and still can't really figure out how it works. From\nwhat I gather, he is saying that humanity can't rebuild as long as the\nflying people are present, because their presence continually makes us feel\nshame for the way we destroyed our own world. So essentially, we can only\nrebuild once we have freed ourselves from the constant reminder of our\nsins. This logic doesn't really make the connection between the flying\npeople and us wanting to burn each other alive...but maybe I'm missing\nsomething vital. Does anyone here a lot smarter than me have a better\nexplanation for what is going on here?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took it not so much as shame as despair and bitterness. It seems as though \nwe have lost much of our scientific knowledge in the collapse. The Flying \nPeople have a science which is superior to that one which we lost. Why, for \nexample, struggle trying to figure out Newton's laws when the Flying People \nhave obviously mastered Relativity? And obviously they refuse to teach us \nwhat they know, which is likely why we really hate them so much and why we \nregard anyone who has dealings with them as traitors who deserve to be burned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) Just what is Ariael trying to achieve by befriending Bin? What's his\nagenda, because he seems to have one. At one point when Ariael asks Bin\nfor his boots, Ariael says that he was just testing Bin. Is this whole\nthing meant to be some kind of test? Is he testing Bin's compassion? But\nto what end? I've read a bit of discussion that says Ariael is taking\nadvantage of Bin's good nature, but I'm not sure I understand that. Yes,\nAriael seems to attract attention to Bin and Gam on purpose (a person who\ncan so easily make himself invisible seems to allow himself to be seen by\neveryone who bothers to look) resulting in them getting captured and\npersecuted by the town...but is he intentionally trying to get them burned\nat the stake? And something happens at the very end that I think\nchallenges the idea that Ariael's intentions are malicious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure I can add anything to Ariael's overall purpose or what he's \nattempting to accomplish. How much of his apparent poverty and need is merely \nan act? Bin offers Ariael one of his boots because his bare feet are bleeding \nand caked in the ashes. He appears to be genuinely cold and hungry. If he's \nputting on an act, he's going to a great deal of trouble to make it realistic.\n\nIt also isn't apparent to me that Ariael intentionally causes trouble for Bin \nand Gam. If you note the incidences where he's seen, it's always the case \nthat people close to him can not see him but that he's visible to people who \nare further away and/or whom he does not realize is watching him. I assumed \nin reading that he was not able to make himself physically invisible but \nsomehow affected people's perceptions to make them not see him and that this \ntalent either had a limited range or he had to be aware that someone was \nlooking at him and to make a conscious attempt to prevent that person from \nseeing him. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5) Speaking of the ending, does anyone have any thoughts as to the\nsignificance of the rain falling at the end? I'm assuming that the\ndownpour was powerful enough to put out the fire that was burning, and that\nAriael caused the downpour, saving Gam and Bin. I think it's also possible\nto relate this event to what Nyman Pryderi says about saving Bin by raking\nhim out of the fire. Ariael instead puts the fire out, which I guess is a\nfar more effective way to save someone from being burned. I think this\nwhole thing is saying something significant about the nature of love,\nalthough what specifically I'm a bit unsure on, but I'd love to hear what\nanyone else might have to say on it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow. I didn't read it that way at all. It would take a hell of a rain to \nput out a kerosene based fire that had already ignited the wood. (I've \npersonally seen small camp fires with no petroleum lighter used burn for quite \nawhile in a steady downpour.) I assumed that the fire continued to grow \ndespite Bin's efforts and that he and Gram both perished in the flames. I \njust assumed that the rain was a mood detail." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mike Legedza", "address": "mike.legedza at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-05T21:40:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (Urth) The Waif", "in_reply_to": "<200903042042.16655.ddjones@riddlemaster.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you to everyone for taking part in this discussion. You've all given\nme a lot more insight into the story, so I'd like to just respond to a few\nthings that have been mentioned.\n\nMatthew - I'm a bit at a disadvantage, because while I've read Book of the\nNew Sun, and Book of the Long Sun, I've only just started Book of the Short\nSun, so I still don't know much about the inhumi. Although from the few\nthings I do know, I can definitely see the link between the Flying People\nand the inhumi. However, I'm not sold that this story takes place in the\nsame universe. For one thing, there's a minor line in one of Nyman\nPryderi's lesson where he mentions that the students are going to school in\nan old truck, and when you read the description of the classroom (long and\nnarrow, with wooden walls and a metal roof), you see that they are actually\ninside a truck FOR school. I don't know if they have trucks in the sun\nbooks...or if they did, I think they'd probably call it by a different\nname. Maybe there's a bunch of trucks running around in the Short Sun books\nthat I just haven't gotten to yet. Also, about your wondering where Niman\ncomes from...Pryderi explains that Niman is a corruption of the term\n\"Near-man\".\n\nMo - Thanks for finding out the name origin of Pryderi. I'll have to read\nthat info carefully to see what influence that might have on how we see\nPryderi. (Another thought about Pryderi...I know there isn't much support\nfor this in the text, but I can't help but think Pryderi is half-drunk while\ngiving the lesson.)\n\nRoy - Thanks for your comments. I think I probably see the story in much\nthe same way you do, although I'm not sure I see the Flying People as\nintentionally keeping humanity from becoming more advanced. I sort of see\nthe Flying People as trying to do whatever they can to help us, even though\nthey know we hate them. But they refuse to leave us alone because they love\nus. They are a race that has chosen love, while we always choose hate, and\nthey continually try to help even if they know it might have devestating\nconsequences. But again, I think I see the story along the same lines you\ndo.\n\nDaniel - I really like your interpretation as to why the humans hate the\nflying people. I think it makes sense, and it goes along with an idea I had\nwhere while the schoolmaster gives this long convoluted lecture about why\nthe flying people aren't tolerated, it simply comes down to envy and fear.\nAs for the ending...I thought for a while too that maybe the fire would keep\non burning...but the text specifically says that the rain started off light,\nbut soon became a torrent. I see that as indicating a huge downpour, and I\nthink enough to put out the fire, or at least keep it from becoming so big\nit can burn you alive.\n\nDavid - You're absolutely right that sometimes a stick is the best tool for\nthe job! I'll have to think more about the idea of \"tough love\". I do\nthink the story is about love (and hatred, of course), and really how simple\nit is. It's about doing the right thing at all times. It is dismissive of\n\"the greater good\" which people use as an excuse to do evil things, like\nburn each other. If you feel guilty about burning someone, then don't burn\nthem, don't delude yourself into thinking it is somehow necessary.\n\nAnyways, I just wanted to take some time to respond to each of you, and say\nthank you.\n\n-Mike" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-05T22:06:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (Urth) The Waif", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mike Legezda wrote: \"Pryderi explains that Niman is a corruption of the term\n\"Near-man\".\"\n\nNiman is also a Hopi word meaning \"Home-Going\". Hopi traditionalists\ncelebrate a summer-solstice festival by this name, a sort of annual dance of\nfarewell to the gods. The underlying idea is that the gods will return as\nrain." } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0903051752h67b02500k119591558daf6d71@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-06T01:52:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (Urth) The Waif", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Mike Legedza wrote:\nFor one thing, there's a minor line in one of Nyman\nPryderi's lesson where he mentions that the students are going to school in\nan old truck, and when you read the description of the classroom (long and\nnarrow, with wooden walls and a metal roof), you see that they are actually\ninside a truck FOR school. I don't know if they have trucks in the sun\nbooks...or if they did, I think they'd probably call it by a different\nname. Maybe there's a bunch of trucks running around in the Short Sun books\nthat I just haven't gotten to yet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, no, no trucks in Short Sun. Also, I reread the story and near\nthe beginning the other boy is eating bread and soup, and there's no\nway he's faking. The inhumi don't eat food.\n\n? Also, about your wondering where Niman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "comes from...Pryderi explains that Niman is a corruption of the term\n\"Near-man\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but I was wondering if there were a meaning outside of the story\nto which Wolfe was alluding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nNiman is also a Hopi word meaning \"Home-Going\". Hopi traditionalists\ncelebrate a summer-solstice festival by this name, a sort of annual dance of\nfarewell to the gods. The underlying idea is that the gods will return as\nrain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent. Bin's stomping on the flames is a rain dance, and that's\nwhat causes the downpour (perhaps along with the human sacrifice)." } ] } ] }