{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5358", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5358, "subject": "Seawrack's Name", "messages": 13, "voices": 10, "first": "2009-03-14T20:54:45+00:00", "last": "2009-03-17T13:48:18+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-14T20:54:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was reading the Short Sun and thinking that we are invited \nto figure out two things when we are first introduced to Seawrack.\nOne is her real name which is supposed to sound somthing like Seawrack. \nI did an archive search and could only find\na 2000 post on the topic, from R. Borski, who (typically?) went \noverboard with name analysis I think and came up with an Irish \nseaweed called \"screadhbhuidhe\". This just isn't a satisfying \nanswer for me. Not sure if my attempts are much better but, FWIW:\n \nOne guess I had is Sirenia. It came to me because Seawrack is \ndescribed as having some green algae tint in her hair and this\nreminded me of the undines from BotNS. The undines were several\ntimes confused with manatees and Sirenia is the scientific order\nname for manatees. The Mother seems to invoke an Abaia-like\npresence. Of course this ties in with the siren and mermaid \nallusions which seem to tie all these characters together.\nSirenia is an animal name anyway and perhaps this is partly why it \nwas incomprehensible to Horn for a girl's name. Perhaps his mind\nchanged it to the plant name Seawrack, as a name he could comprehend\nfor her.\n \nMy other guess is \"Shipwreck\". It would qualify as wordplay meant\nto go directly between author and reader, somewhat by-passing the\ncharacters. I wondered if Wolfe might be hinting this her real name\n(or more likely her job title or duty or something) since it accurately \ndescribes her function as a Siren. She does seem embarassed when Horn\nfirst tries to prounounce her name. Perhaps because of what she was\nsupposed to do to Horn's ship? Horn couldn't see and match the silent\nw found in both words but we can. Moreover, shipwreck and seawrack also\ndo sound quite alike.\n \n \n-bsharp\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<675830.65030.qm@web180216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2009-03-14T22:49:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only similar-sounding name I can think of is Sycorax, the mother of Caliban in Shakespeare's Tempest. But that seems like a stretch.\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 3/14/09, b sharp wrote:\nFrom: b sharp \nSubject: (urth) Seawrack's Name\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Saturday, March 14, 2009, 4:54 PM\nI was reading the Short Sun and thinking that we are invited\n\nto figure out two things when we are first introduced to\nSeawrack.\nOne is her real name which is supposed to sound somthing\nlike Seawrack. \nI did an archive search and could only find\na 2000 post on the topic, from R. Borski, who (typically?)\nwent \noverboard with name analysis I think and came up with an\nIrish \nseaweed called \"screadhbhuidhe\". This just\nisn't a satisfying \nanswer for me. Not sure if my attempts are much better but,\nFWIW:\n \nOne guess I had is Sirenia. It came to me because Seawrack\nis \ndescribed as having some green algae tint in her hair and\nthis\nreminded me of the undines from BotNS. The undines were\nseveral\ntimes confused with manatees and Sirenia is the scientific\norder\nname for manatees. _________________________________________________________________\nHotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really\nfast. \nhttp://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3E64B6CE1F0148749844148C2811557F@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-15T23:33:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "<675830.65030.qm@web180216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to figure out two things when we are first introduced to\nSeawrack. One is her real name which is supposed to sound\nsomething like Seawrack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always presumed her actual name would be from the mythology of Japan, \nChina, or Mongolia, due to her features: \"sharp chin, very high cheekbones, \nand tilted eyes\".\n\nBut then her hair is gold, her skin is fairest white, and her eyes are \n\"midnight-blue\". On the OTHER other hand, if she were built from the corpse \nof the pirate-woman Horn killed a couple days previously, it is no surprise \nshe is so pale, but that would not explain her golden-green hair. (but \nthere's that golden-green color again.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49BE60F7.1090804@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2009-03-16T14:23:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "<3E64B6CE1F0148749844148C2811557F@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is also the silkie, an Irish shape-changing fairy who is either \nseal or woman (I think).\n\nIt's nothing like seawrack, but then people often end up far from the \noriginal when they are forced to pick a native word to stand for a \nforeign one. (Technically a \"calque,\" I believe, although that's usually \na place name, like Leghorn.)\n\nBut I like bsharp's suggestion that Horn balked at Sirenia and went with \nSeawrack. Wolfe always follows the rules he invents." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:49:28 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: John Smith \nSubject: Re: (urth) Seawrack's Name\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <675830.65030.qm at web180216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\nThe only similar-sounding name I can think of is Sycorax, the mother of Caliban in Shakespeare's Tempest. But that seems like a stretch.\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n\n\n--- On Sat, 3/14/09, b sharp wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: b sharp \nSubject: (urth) Seawrack's Name\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Saturday, March 14, 2009, 4:54 PM\nI was reading the Short Sun and thinking that we are invited\n\nto figure out two things when we are first introduced to\nSeawrack.\nOne is her real name which is supposed to sound somthing\nlike Seawrack. \nI did an archive search and could only find\na 2000 post on the topic, from R. Borski, who (typically?)\nwent \noverboard with name analysis I think and came up with an\nIrish \nseaweed called \"screadhbhuidhe\". This just\nisn't a satisfying \nanswer for me. Not sure if my attempts are much better but,\nFWIW:\n \nOne guess I had is Sirenia. It came to me because Seawrack\nis \ndescribed as having some green algae tint in her hair and\nthis\nreminded me of the undines from BotNS. The undines were\nseveral\ntimes confused with manatees and Sirenia is the scientific\norder\nname for manatees. _________________________________________________________________\nHotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really\nfast. \nhttp://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903161026w40cee10bv717e3367e845572a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-16T17:26:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "<49BE60F7.1090804@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmmm. I can't really get on board any of that. Although I can understand\nwanting to figure it out, as rarely is something laid before us like that\nwithout some purposful reasonance.\n\nI assumed the word was in a language completely unfamiliar, and non-human.\nSeawrack being a bridge of sorts between to worlds, that of the mother and\nthat of humanity. She is being passed from the mother, the non-human world,\nwhere she had a non-human name, into the world of humanity, where she has to\nhave a human name.\n\nWhy would she have a name of the language of men? I can't imagine Horn\nhaving a hard time saying any of the words people have said here. He\n'pronounces' an awfuly lot of complicated nomenclature throughout his tale,\nso Serineia or other others don't strike me as holding any special\ndifficulty.\n\nAn alien word though, in a tongue not related to the world of man, that\nwould be tough. That also has resonance for me. Mirrors the false mother\nthe Mother creates to speak to Horn. It has to approximate humanity to\ninteract with Horn, and Horn has to 'approximate' Seawracks name to relate\nto Seawrack." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2009-03-16T22:14:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903161026w40cee10bv717e3367e845572a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Monday, March 16, 2009 10:26 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Seawrack's Name\n\nHmmmm. I can't really get on board any of that. Although I can understand\nwanting to figure it out, as rarely is something laid before us like that\nwithout some purposful reasonance.\n\nI assumed the word was in a language completely unfamiliar, and non-human.\nSeawrack being a bridge of sorts between to worlds, that of the mother and\nthat of humanity. She is being passed from the mother, the non-human world,\nwhere she had a non-human name, into the world of humanity, where she has to\nhave a human name.\n\nWhy would she have a name of the language of men? I can't imagine Horn\nhaving a hard time saying any of the words people have said here. He\n'pronounces' an awfuly lot of complicated nomenclature throughout his tale,\nso Serineia or other others don't strike me as holding any special\ndifficulty.\n\nAn alien word though, in a tongue not related to the world of man, that\nwould be tough. That also has resonance for me. Mirrors the false mother\nthe Mother creates to speak to Horn. It has to approximate humanity to\ninteract with Horn, and Horn has to 'approximate' Seawracks name to relate\nto Seawrack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, this jibes with me much more.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0903161653o3a8efc42l7fd9a46c222d76e1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-16T23:53:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903161026w40cee10bv717e3367e845572a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:\nI assumed the word was in a language completely unfamiliar, and non-human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is my assumption too. \"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh C'thulhu R'lyeh\nwgah'nagl fhtagn.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-16T23:56:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0903161653o3a8efc42l7fd9a46c222d76e1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 16, 2009, at 6:53 PM, Matthew Groves wrote:\nOn Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Jordon Flato \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I assumed the word was in a language completely unfamiliar, and non- \nhuman." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is my assumption too. \"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh C'thulhu R'lyeh\nwgah'nagl fhtagn.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Seawrack\" sounds *sort of * like \"Shoggoth\" if you're drunk.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<273409710903161704n2163e2detfa0300d054aeee64@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflato at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T00:04:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh my god. I think we just found the Evil Guest/Short Sun tie in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Mar 16, 2009, at 6:53 PM, Matthew Groves wrote:\n\nOn Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Jordon Flato \nwrote:\n\nI assumed the word was in a language completely unfamiliar, and non-human.\n\n\nThis is my assumption too. \"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh C'thulhu R'lyeh\nwgah'nagl fhtagn.\"\n\n\n\"Seawrack\" sounds *sort of * like \"Shoggoth\" if you're drunk.\n\nAdam\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<758622.7219.qm@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Scott Wowra", "address": "swowra at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T02:55:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "<273409710903161704n2163e2detfa0300d054aeee64@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My 2 cents: \n\nSeawrack = Syrinx \n\nSyrinx was a Naiad nympth who escaped a horny Pan through a transformation into reeds, which he cut off to make his pipes. \n\nNames sound the same, the story connects to music as Horn is always hearing Seawrack singing, and Syrinx has the nymph quality to seduce males." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Why would she have a name of the language of men? I can't imagine Horn having a hard time saying any >of the words people have said here.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems like cheating to me, something Mr. Wolfe doesn't do. Mr. Wolfe always leaves clues in his names, and I don't think that Seawrack is based off of something totally alien. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<311234.10728.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2009-03-17T06:32:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm in the middle of a very slow, hopefully thorough re-re-read of the SS series..I'll be hitting y'all up with sme thoughts & questions soon...but I agree I like the Syrex connesction but believe GW made it clear it was an unpronouncable word in a totally alien language..\n~S~\n\n\n???? Mobile — (415) 786-3624\n???? Skype? stuart.hamm\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\n? ??? stuarthamm.net\n\n\n--- On Mon, 3/16/09, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Son of Witz \nSubject: Re: (urth) Seawrack's Name\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, March 16, 2009, 3:14 PM\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jordon Flato [mailto:jordonflato at gmail.com]\nSent: Monday, March 16, 2009 10:26 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) Seawrack's Name\n\nHmmmm. I can't really get on board any of that. Although I can\nunderstand\nwanting to figure it out, as rarely is something laid before us like that\nwithout some purposful reasonance.\n\nI assumed the word was in a language completely unfamiliar, and non-human.\nSeawrack being a bridge of sorts between to worlds, that of the mother and\nthat of humanity. She is being passed from the mother, the non-human\nworld,\nwhere she had a non-human name, into the world of humanity, where she has\nto\nhave a human name.\n\nWhy would she have a name of the language of men? I can't imagine Horn\nhaving a hard time saying any of the words people have said here. He\n'pronounces' an awfuly lot of complicated nomenclature throughout\nhis tale,\nso Serineia or other others don't strike me as holding any special\ndifficulty.\n\nAn alien word though, in a tongue not related to the world of man, that\nwould be tough. That also has resonance for me. Mirrors the false mother\nthe Mother creates to speak to Horn. It has to approximate humanity to\ninteract with Horn, and Horn has to 'approximate' Seawracks name to\nrelate\nto Seawrack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, this jibes with me much more.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<89CBBADBEB2746A682B29F254EF8DBC8@eMachinePC>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T12:34:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "<311234.10728.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm in the middle of a very slow, hopefully thorough re-re-read of the SS series\n..I'll be hitting y'all up with sme thoughts & questions soon...but I agree I like the\nSyrex connesction but believe GW made it clear it was an unpronouncable word\nin a totally alien language.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " For record, (although I like the choice of Syrinx on a lot of levels) a literal transcription an pronunciation of Syrinx's name would be \"Surigx\". Not all that different from the pronunciation of the name of the goddess Sphigx. \n\n I doubt the name, whatever it is, was intended to some made-up alien name. Its just not Wolfe's way.\n\n J\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<74110AA4-AD74-4640-A02E-61092EC34F52@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2009-03-17T13:48:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's Name", "in_reply_to": "<89CBBADBEB2746A682B29F254EF8DBC8@eMachinePC>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:34 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm in the middle of a very slow, hopefully thorough re-re-read of \nthe SS series\n..I'll be hitting y'all up with sme thoughts & questions soon...but \nI agree I like the\nSyrex connesction but believe GW made it clear it was an \nunpronouncable word\nin a totally alien language.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For record, (although I like the choice of Syrinx on a lot of \nlevels) a literal transcription an pronunciation of Syrinx's name \nwould be \"Surigx\". Not all that different from the pronunciation of \nthe name of the goddess Sphigx.\n\nI doubt the name, whatever it is, was intended to some made-up alien \nname. Its just not Wolfe's way.\n\nJ" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Cybele\" sounds vaguely like \"Seawrack\". I think the Magna Mater \nexplanation is likely to be the right one.\n\nAdam" } ] } ] }